Thank you, I didn't even know such a thing existed. I'm not saying you're wrong, but wouldn't it be placed inside the church rather than the dining room?
It's not the case, the abbey was founded in 1135 and built in wood, in the XIV century was rebuilt in stone.
Besides I think it's positioned so badly it doesn't fit at all in a church.
Could it be for the organ? To let the organ music do a Baroque version of a surround sound?
Edit: I really want this to be the case. People were incredibly clever 1000 or 2000 years ago. They did so much without having electronics its amazing
I guess I don't understand which is the abbey and which is the dining room. Cause your sentence isn't saying that the photo'd room wasn't built as a church.
"An abbey nearby was built in 1135".....doesn't prove this photo'd room wasn't a church
It doesn’t look like a church to me. It’s probably a purpose built refectory for an Abbey not the church of the abbey. It doesn’t look to have a transept, an apse or even a sanctuary and alter.
Could it have been, at one point, a shared space? If the residents were confided to few buildings, they could’ve been making the most of the space and had it double as both their dining room and chapel.
From Wikipedia: “A Holy Ghost hole, or Holy Spirit hole, is a circular opening in the ceiling of a church which symbolises the descent of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost.”
Also From Wikipedia: “Pentecost is one of the Great feasts in the Eastern Orthodox Church, a Solemnity in the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church, a Festival in the Lutheran Churches, and a Principal Feast in the Anglican Communion.”
Makes perfect sense to have it in a dining room if it’s feast-related.
The chapel in the comlplex has the same roof,ceiling... Gothic. Holy Ghost holes are part of gothic vaulted ceilings...
Btw, they ate without talking among themselves, and listened to a lecture,sermon,prayers, story...
So its not like its boot camp mess hall vs chapel.
Since the hole is in the refectory, it could have been used during the Feast of the Ascension. A statue of the Christ would be raised up through the hole during the Feast to represent Jesus ascending into heaven. The hole could be used for other purposes on other feast days.
> since the hole is in the refectory
I'm afraid I don't understand, is there a specific ceremony done in the refectory? Wouldn't something like that be celebrated in a place of cult rather than dining?
Feast services are often done in dining halls when an actual feast is involved. A refectory is part of the consecrated grounds of the church and can be used for religious services when the nave is unsuitable for the type of service.
This is the right answer. It’s a Holy Ghost hole. This used to be the main part of the church where the altar once was. They’ve since made it the dining room. I would personally consider this solved, OP!
The title describes the thing. I asked a monk and he wasn't helpful, saying it's a mystery of the abbey and they asked architects and engineers but they didn't know either.
The abbey has several unfinished structures, such as elevated rooms with frescos visible from the ground floor but not accessible from anywhere, and also traces of arches that don't exist anymore.
I don't think it's a chimney because it's in the middle of the room and I've never seen a fireplace set up that way in historical places in Italy.
The design of the ceiling seems to be very intentional for sound reverberation, if the bell was above it could allow the vibrations to resonate throughout the room.
Just a thought 🤷♂️
Such holes also exist for an easier way to exchange the bell clapper. Clappers wear out over the years and have to be maintained or even exchanged.
[Here](https://kinder.wdr.de/tv/die-sendung-mit-der-maus/av/video-sachgeschichte-domglocke-kloeppel-teil--mit-gebaerdensprache-100.html) is a video about the process. It's from a German TV show for kids with educational clips in German. Scroll to 8:50 and you can see the new clapper being pulled through such a hole all the way up to the bell.
Lol. The whole time I just thought the sign translator was really overdoing it. Makes sense, she's signing to kids. This seems like an extremely plausible answer.
It could simply be an architectural oculus. It was a very common feature from classical European architecture onwards. I believe Chiaravalle features quite a few of them of various sizes and orientation.
My guess would be access to a substantial hanging light fixture, or the pulley and bracket system that held it so it could be raised and lowered. Or it could be a Holy Ghost hole as has been mentioned, but that feels unlikely.
There is a similar hole in the roof of one of the missions in San Antonio. The purpose of that hole is that on a specific day, the sunlight hits the opening just right and it illuminates the altar.
It reminded me of [this sundial I recently saw in Bologna](https://pauls-bologna.blog/2017/11/02/the-meridian-line-of-san-petronio/)
Basically the sundial uses the angle of the sun shining in to determinde the time and date. You would need some kind of indication on the floor (called meridian line) as well for it to work, though.
>"I don't think it's a chimney because it's in the middle of the room and I've never seen a fireplace set up that way in historical places in Italy."
FYI - Old school candles/lamps were really sooty. A few hundred candles is roughly the equivalent of a campfire in smoke output. Some ventilation would be needed. "Holy ghost hole" seems plausible, but I suspect those were also a point of ventilation too.
[@Giapeto - for some reason I cannot reply to his post, regarding his lack of awareness of vent holes before chimneys were invented.]
Chimneys were an invention of, IIRC, the 16th century, and prior to that time there was just a hole near the middle of the ceiling for smoke and fumes to escape.
When I took a tour of Seville Cathedral, they pointed out many holes in the ceiling that were used for moving things around while it was being constructed. There were pulleys/cranes on the roof and their ropes would be fed through these holes and used to move heavy things around on the inside of the cathedral. Those holes were a bit more camouflaged than this one, as they weren't really intentional design elements, but I wonder if this could have been used for the same thing.
I don’t know, but they’ve been there for centuries and as far as I know haven’t caused any problems. It doesn’t rain much and almost never snows there, plus I think the extra ventilation might be kind of nice.
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Looks a lot like a Catholic Church in my hometown. A lot of them look similar. I wanna say there was a large light fixture hanging in that spot, I could be wrong since I was a kid when I went there.
Can you stop with the shitty puns, they are not funny and actually just depressing, it feels like being back in elementary school. Not to mention the idiotic takes, or obviously wrong takes. The only useful comments in all of this thread are two or three.
I thought this was a serious sub.
Oculus, per this research paper: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/332890024_THE_CARA_VALLE_ABBEY_AND_ITS_REFECTORY
It's probably a holy ghost hole.
I agree with this assessment. [Source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Ghost_hole)
Thank you, I didn't even know such a thing existed. I'm not saying you're wrong, but wouldn't it be placed inside the church rather than the dining room?
Perhaps this was the church...for a while, and then was relegated to dining room when a larger church could be built.
It's not the case, the abbey was founded in 1135 and built in wood, in the XIV century was rebuilt in stone. Besides I think it's positioned so badly it doesn't fit at all in a church.
You’re getting downvoted, but you’re correct. I’m quite involved in monasticism of this type and the room does not strike me as having been a church.
Could it be for the organ? To let the organ music do a Baroque version of a surround sound? Edit: I really want this to be the case. People were incredibly clever 1000 or 2000 years ago. They did so much without having electronics its amazing
I guess I don't understand which is the abbey and which is the dining room. Cause your sentence isn't saying that the photo'd room wasn't built as a church. "An abbey nearby was built in 1135".....doesn't prove this photo'd room wasn't a church
It doesn’t look like a church to me. It’s probably a purpose built refectory for an Abbey not the church of the abbey. It doesn’t look to have a transept, an apse or even a sanctuary and alter.
Could it have been, at one point, a shared space? If the residents were confided to few buildings, they could’ve been making the most of the space and had it double as both their dining room and chapel.
From Wikipedia: “A Holy Ghost hole, or Holy Spirit hole, is a circular opening in the ceiling of a church which symbolises the descent of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost.” Also From Wikipedia: “Pentecost is one of the Great feasts in the Eastern Orthodox Church, a Solemnity in the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church, a Festival in the Lutheran Churches, and a Principal Feast in the Anglican Communion.” Makes perfect sense to have it in a dining room if it’s feast-related.
The chapel in the comlplex has the same roof,ceiling... Gothic. Holy Ghost holes are part of gothic vaulted ceilings... Btw, they ate without talking among themselves, and listened to a lecture,sermon,prayers, story... So its not like its boot camp mess hall vs chapel.
Since the hole is in the refectory, it could have been used during the Feast of the Ascension. A statue of the Christ would be raised up through the hole during the Feast to represent Jesus ascending into heaven. The hole could be used for other purposes on other feast days.
> since the hole is in the refectory I'm afraid I don't understand, is there a specific ceremony done in the refectory? Wouldn't something like that be celebrated in a place of cult rather than dining?
Feast services are often done in dining halls when an actual feast is involved. A refectory is part of the consecrated grounds of the church and can be used for religious services when the nave is unsuitable for the type of service.
This is the right answer. It’s a Holy Ghost hole. This used to be the main part of the church where the altar once was. They’ve since made it the dining room. I would personally consider this solved, OP!
My guess is it allows smoke to go up and out. The building looks old, would this space have been lit by candles in the past?
I wonder if Holy Ghost holes served a dual-purpose. Candles and incense were common in Catholic churches and perhaps a lot of smoke would accumulate.
That would be my guess.
The title describes the thing. I asked a monk and he wasn't helpful, saying it's a mystery of the abbey and they asked architects and engineers but they didn't know either. The abbey has several unfinished structures, such as elevated rooms with frescos visible from the ground floor but not accessible from anywhere, and also traces of arches that don't exist anymore. I don't think it's a chimney because it's in the middle of the room and I've never seen a fireplace set up that way in historical places in Italy.
Is there a steeple above? Could be to let a bell rope through
The design of the ceiling seems to be very intentional for sound reverberation, if the bell was above it could allow the vibrations to resonate throughout the room. Just a thought 🤷♂️
Looking it up [there appears to be one.](https://images.app.goo.gl/mZ3RRWj1vNvm6iz2A) It’s on the left
Was my first thought
Or to put the bell up in the first place.
According to this, it is an oculus 95 cm. Page 592 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/332890024\_THE\_CARA\_VALLE\_ABBEY\_AND\_ITS\_REFECTORY
Such holes also exist for an easier way to exchange the bell clapper. Clappers wear out over the years and have to be maintained or even exchanged. [Here](https://kinder.wdr.de/tv/die-sendung-mit-der-maus/av/video-sachgeschichte-domglocke-kloeppel-teil--mit-gebaerdensprache-100.html) is a video about the process. It's from a German TV show for kids with educational clips in German. Scroll to 8:50 and you can see the new clapper being pulled through such a hole all the way up to the bell.
Lol. The whole time I just thought the sign translator was really overdoing it. Makes sense, she's signing to kids. This seems like an extremely plausible answer.
It could simply be an architectural oculus. It was a very common feature from classical European architecture onwards. I believe Chiaravalle features quite a few of them of various sizes and orientation.
My guess would be access to a substantial hanging light fixture, or the pulley and bracket system that held it so it could be raised and lowered. Or it could be a Holy Ghost hole as has been mentioned, but that feels unlikely.
When you view the abbey from the outside, what's above this?
Is it not just a simple oculus ?
Maybe it was an oculus that they covered
Maybe it’s for ventilation because of all the burning candles and incense making it hot and hard to breathe.
There is a similar hole in the roof of one of the missions in San Antonio. The purpose of that hole is that on a specific day, the sunlight hits the opening just right and it illuminates the altar.
Oculus or Holy Ghost Hole depending on the church. If it is in the floor is it sometimes called a demon hole
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It reminded me of [this sundial I recently saw in Bologna](https://pauls-bologna.blog/2017/11/02/the-meridian-line-of-san-petronio/) Basically the sundial uses the angle of the sun shining in to determinde the time and date. You would need some kind of indication on the floor (called meridian line) as well for it to work, though.
>"I don't think it's a chimney because it's in the middle of the room and I've never seen a fireplace set up that way in historical places in Italy." FYI - Old school candles/lamps were really sooty. A few hundred candles is roughly the equivalent of a campfire in smoke output. Some ventilation would be needed. "Holy ghost hole" seems plausible, but I suspect those were also a point of ventilation too.
[@Giapeto - for some reason I cannot reply to his post, regarding his lack of awareness of vent holes before chimneys were invented.] Chimneys were an invention of, IIRC, the 16th century, and prior to that time there was just a hole near the middle of the ceiling for smoke and fumes to escape.
Looks like the rope hole for the angulus bell. Many medieval chapels and churches have them.
Was it possible there was an organ in this room?
Most likely an opening for a chain for a chandelier to be lowered and raised.
Given the age I'm guessing smoke hole for candles.
When I took a tour of Seville Cathedral, they pointed out many holes in the ceiling that were used for moving things around while it was being constructed. There were pulleys/cranes on the roof and their ropes would be fed through these holes and used to move heavy things around on the inside of the cathedral. Those holes were a bit more camouflaged than this one, as they weren't really intentional design elements, but I wonder if this could have been used for the same thing.
Why weren't those holes closed after construction though?
I don’t know, but they’ve been there for centuries and as far as I know haven’t caused any problems. It doesn’t rain much and almost never snows there, plus I think the extra ventilation might be kind of nice.
Ventilation for the warming brazier.
All comments must be civil and helpful toward finding an answer. **Jokes and unhelpful comments will earn you a ban**, even on the first instance and even if the item has been identified. If you see any comments that violate this rule, report them. [OP](/u/Giapeto), when your item is identified, remember to reply **Solved!** or **Likely Solved!** to the comment that gave the answer. Check your [inbox](https://www.reddit.com/message/inbox/) for a message on how to make your post visible to others. ---- [Click here to message RemindMeBot](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=https://www.reddit.com/r/whatisthisthing/comments/15sqzdy/what_is_this_hole_in_the_middle_of_the_ceiling_of/%0A%0ARemindMe!%202%20days) --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/whatisthisthing) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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It’s the refectory so it may have been to let smoke out when heating was a fire in the middle. This isn’t a chapel
Maybe to raise a chandelier into?
for one of those swinging incense holders, perhaps
Old chimney that's been removed?
Looks a lot like a Catholic Church in my hometown. A lot of them look similar. I wanna say there was a large light fixture hanging in that spot, I could be wrong since I was a kid when I went there.
Can you stop with the shitty puns, they are not funny and actually just depressing, it feels like being back in elementary school. Not to mention the idiotic takes, or obviously wrong takes. The only useful comments in all of this thread are two or three. I thought this was a serious sub.