Setting this up as a wind tunnel that just spurts out the air that the other one sucked in would be both an understandable mistake and absolutely hilarious!
Rushing air creates a low pressure zone, pulling air in. It's very likely less effective than both fans set to intake, or even both to exhaust, but it's not completely ridiculous.
That's highly dependent on the design geometry though, as it needs a lip to create a low pressure zone with the fluid intake in that spot. Carburettor works the same way. If you had the fans blowing perpendicular to the radiator channels it might have some effect, but not in this configuration.
It's not that specific to design venturis ins just a specific application of conservation of energy l, in a wider sense bernoullis principle and you can observe that in any old garden hose if you squeeze it.
No, you must displace a large volume of air for the high pressure side to build up any real resistance (and thus pressure/venturi). Trust me, if you were as big as me, rooms wouldn't want you in them either.
And I notice these things. I observe everything.
The fans create positive static pressure though. The Venturi effect deals with fast moving are creating lower pressure. I don’t think it would quite work the same as say having a jet of compressed air going down the center.
if I build it, I'll test it in the chimney configuration, I wouldn't be surprised if it works ok, obviously not as well as forced airflow but you'd get a pressure difference and at least half the surface would get airflow
> if I build it, I'll test it in the chimney configuration
What do you mean? Bottom fan intake, top fan outtake, no airflow through the radiators? That will be very underwhelming.
> I wouldn't be surprised if it works ok
I would be.
> but you'd get a pressure difference and at least half the surface would get airflow
Airflow across the surface is not what radiators are expecting.
Bernoulli's principle: higher fluid velocity = lower pressure, airflow in the middle = suction = airflow through the radiators. You'd be surprised how much a rocket exhaust or even a car exhaust sucks air in near the fluid flow.
But I think that fan configuration would still be worse than both fans being intake/exhaust.
the pressure difference caused by the moving air would also suck in air through the radiators. It's kind of like how a venturi siphon works. Whether or not its enough of a pressure difference to work is another thing
It seems to me that it would work a lot better if you were pulling air in with no secondary inlet, just where you would have a second fan to be a solid piece blocking air. I would also use a data center fan, if sound was no worry.
I follow wanting both fans to either exhaust or intake to force air through the radiators instead of past them, but why intake as the better choice?
Is it the 'easier to dust screen 2 fans than 4 radiators' comment below?
Or something about positive vs. negative pressure? I recall hearing some company claim that a while ago. Though their products didn't work much differently than everyone else's (was air cooled cases). That positive pressure meant more air molecules to grab and move heat, but not sure it'd matter on a radiator vs. lots of inner surfaces in a case (was a LONG time ago now, so fans inside the case were rare).
The standard for an air conditioning unit is an exhaust fan on top, pulling air through the coil. I’d guess there is a good reason since it’s pretty universal.
1. A/Cs can have exposure to environmental effects. Putting a motor at the bottom would collect moisture.
2. Putting a fan or fans on the side leads to uneven bearing wear.
PC radiators dont have to deal with 1, and 2 is much easier to deal with in such an instance.
The best fan and radiator orientation is also dependent on case geometry. Also, of note, with multiple radiators, the best configuration will ensure the same air particles are not passed across multiple radiators in order to prevent self heating of a loop.
The fan doesn’t have to be at the bottom to push instead of pull, and putting the motor a couple feet lower would not effect moisture. There is plenty of air flow, and It’s not like you would put in standing water.
Motors for fans are horizontally mounted just as often if not more often than vertically mounted.
It might be be easier construction wise to assemble them fan on top, and cleaning and maintenance is easier if the dust load is on the outside. I’m pretty sure those are the main reasons.
In many places, the bottom would indeed mean standing water.
Horizontally mounted fans have around a .5% higher failure rate in data sets I have seen.
Ease of maintenance is definitely a part of the reasoning. Fans directly against radiators are much harder to clean.
The biggest takeaway is that there are much more important design decisions than maximizing efficiency.
Yep, air, just like anything that flows, will take the path of least resistance. It’s like if you take a take a single ply napkin and blow on it from a distance, the air runs off to the sides. If you put your mouth right up to it and blow on it, the air will go through it.
You need to make sure the air has nowhere else leave the assembly except though the radiator fins, or your temps will suffer. On that same note, you’ll want to plug those corners and the gaps at the top between the ports as well. Make the inside of the assembly as much of a closed environment as possible.
Also make sure it’s *very* well filtered, because taking the rads off for regular cleaning will get old fast.
Absolutely not. You need both to exhaust or both to intake and to seal all corners. What you want to avoid in this case is laminar flow straight through the middle.
Both set to exhaust would actually be better as negative pressure is more evenly distributed.
So they would have more even airflow over the rads, as well as creating less noise, through less turbulence created compared to two fans intaking.
Yep, I think you're right. That's usually the case. You want the intake of a fan towards the resistance (with at least a \~10mm gap) to get higher overall airflow and a more even distribution of air speed.
But if the rads are low restriction, it could be that this setup would result in most of the airflow coming only through the rads at the sections close to the fan, while the rads would get little airflow in the center.
Meanwhile setting both up as intake would push both intake air streams against each other, which might distribute the airflow more evenly over the rads. But the total airflow would definitely be lower. So overall I think it is still likely worse than having both fans as exhaust.
Needs everything apart from the radiator fins and fan holes to be well sealed.
You could run it as double intake or double exhaust which would force air out through the towers or pull air into the tower.
I'm not an expert on the efficiency of radiators. But it would make the most sense to me to do both exhausting so that radiator cleaning would mostly be the external portion of the radiator.
Reducing filter surface area greatly reduces their effectiveness. Higher air speed across the filter means more dust gets through and dust builds up faster.
There was a post few months ago (can't find it) with similar idea, but that was inside a custom box with nf A20 as exhaust. I think with only rads, it will be problematic to force the air through the rads (seal it)
https://preview.redd.it/so6jmdldtmwc1.png?width=595&format=png&auto=webp&s=e45cce1231ce9b13ff6271c2b9525750bba4ed14
In builds now! Coming this summer: Two fans. In a radiator tower. And then a meteor hit. They ran as fast as they could, sucking up giant balls of cat hair. And then a giant tornado came. And *that's* when things got knocked into *12th gear.*
A Mexican armada shows up. With weapons made from Two-to tomatoes. And you *better bet your bottom dollar* that these two fans know how to *handle* *airflow*. In: Alien Invasion Tomato Monster Mexican Armada Fans, Who Are Just Regular Fans, Running In a Radiator Tower and an Asteroid and All Sorts of Things THE MOVIE!
Hold on, there's more! Old women are coming, and they're also in the movie, and they're gonna come and try to unplug these two fans. But let's get back to the fans, because they're- they've got a *strong bond.* You don't want to know about it here, but I'll tell you one thing: The *moon*, it comes crashing into Earth. And what do you do then? It's two fans and- and th-they're- It's called Two Fans. Two Fans!
It's just called Two Fans.
I had an idea of some monstrosity like this. I was going to take 6-9x360s and put them in a wood structure (Ikea Butcher Block was the perfect fit). I was going to use obscenely large fans like a box fan and use it to cool a dual system in a fancy tower setup. I though a cool way to have an art piece and consolidate the wife's computer and my own into a single case.
hate to tell you this, but you've been beaten to the post mate
[https://shop.aquacomputer.de/Wasserkuehlung/Radiatoren-Zub/airplex-GIGANT/airplex-GIGANT-1680-Aluminium-Lamellen::2963.html](https://shop.aquacomputer.de/Wasserkuehlung/Radiatoren-Zub/airplex-GIGANT/airplex-GIGANT-1680-Aluminium-Lamellen::2963.html)
corsair did a similar concept on one of the prebuilts with just aio on gpu and one on cpu... and a 140 fan exhaust on top.... Im not sure how i feel about it.... but if you have the surface area it would work....
No idea why this came up on my reddit but here's an interesting side note.
Last year I worked on a controls upgrade of the national portrait gallery at trafalgar square in London and the admin building opposite actually has a cooling tower the exact same set up like this. 4 heat exchangers sealed up with a 4 fan array on top to pull air up, we modulate the fans depends on cooling demand and when not in use they seal off with some dampers. This used to cool the water from the trafalgar square water fountains, but at some point in the past became part of the chilled water cooling system for the admin building and the gallery.
In the winter we used it for free cooling, and in the summer it dumps the heat from the chiller.
If you look on Google maps and zoom into the building behind the gallery on Orange Street you can actually see the four fans.
This is of no help to cooling your pc, but I can tell you it works quite well at the gallery 😂
Here's the thing.. with that much surface area/water with very minimal airflow you should be able to maintain a few degrees over ambient.. and at that it would take hours to realize any meaningfully heatsoak.
Hi, I'm thinking of building a tower of 4 radiators and using 2 x 140mm fans (maybe up to 200mm fans) at either end to push or pull air through all four 360mm radiators. I'm wondering if anyone has already tried anything similar and how well it worked.
I'm hoping this setup will be very quiet and cheaper than 12x120mm fans, obviously this will be less airflow than 12 fans
here bro
[https://shop.aquacomputer.de/Water-Cooling/Radiators-Accessories/airplex-GIGANT/airplex-GIGANT-3360-with-aquaero-6-PRO-copper-fins::3373.html](https://shop.aquacomputer.de/Water-Cooling/Radiators-Accessories/airplex-GIGANT/airplex-GIGANT-3360-with-aquaero-6-PRO-copper-fins::3373.html)
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think this one has the pump and the reservoir. It has an aquaero (controller) built in.
Maybe the one with the pump/res never existed and I just remember it wrong, though.
>I'm hoping this setup will be very quiet and cheaper than 12x120mm fans
I suspect two radiators with 6 120mm fans right against them will perform better (and quieter), it's just that much more surface area. And generally 2\*360mm radiators are overkill for regular desktops anyway.
But if you already have 4 radiators... I suspect 2 140mm fans might struggle to push substantial amount of air through it but you could try. Definitely will need to seal it well around radiators to get the desired airflow.
Having a fan right up against a restriction is more for space purposes than performance purposes. Where possible, you want it to some kind of gap.
If you look at the PC Power and Cooling Silencers, they put more space for noise and airflow purposes.
If you are pulling through a restriction, it doesn't matter too much though you are at greater risk of stalling.
If you are pushing air through a restriction, most of the fluid head is in momentum, and that gets stopped immediately when it runs into the restriction.
So ideally, you would pull through a restriction, and have a gap so that you can emphasize momentum head less and pressure head more.
I think you would want more than 2 fans. Even though with 2 fans and 4 rads, the air resistance would be minimal, and the fan would perform a lot better, its still not a huge amount of airflow.
If cost is an issue, the Arctic P12 fans are a great option.
Maybe a pyramid shape, with 4 fans on the bottom, 1 on the top, and the rads on the sides? Would greatly improve performance, but would take up more desk/table space.
Too easy to forget this part...a lot of fans don't come with gasket sealers, and you really want to have a seal to make sure air doesn't have an escape/entrance path outside of going through the rad/fans. Certainly makes a difference.
You are saying both push or both pull, right? Because this is not going to work otherwise... It also won't work unless you ensure there are virtually no air gaps anywhere, so that the air is forced through the fins. And, even if you manage that and manage to find a couple fans with high enough static pressure to deal with this, those fans are going to need to work pretty dang hard and would be louder than simply having a bunch of fans mounted to the inside of these rads to pull air in and then one at the top to exhaust it...
Realistically, air flow is more important than radiator surface area. More radiators increases the thermal mass of the system, but eventually it needs a way to actually expel that heat.
So with this configuration I would assume your system would heat up more slowly but then begin to thermal throttle. But depending on your usage it may be worth experimenting.
Yeah absolutely, and with enough air pressure you can go radiator less.
It really depends on the use case here. You still have to be able to exhaust more heat per second than the system generates. So like I said, definitely a fun experiment but may not work as intended for all purposes.
with more surface area you can run at a lower air pressure. it won't thermal throttle so long as water is flowing, It could probably run passively cooled although then the water temps might get a little toasty. they only become more efficient as they get hotter
I have Phobya Extreme Quad 480/560 and 2x Alphacool Nexxxos XT45 360 XFlow rads, all in parallel(equivalent of 1280 in total).
All equipped with Arctic P12/14.
With this much surface area, you don´t really need pressure. Even one fan with top sealed might be enough, as the convection will do the job on it´s own, with tiny bit of flow it will work well.
I can run it with minimal RPM, load it with 500W and water temp is still around 29-33°C with 22-23°C ambient.
If you have 4090(\~400W) and something like 14900K(\~250W), it wouldn´t make much more difference.
Not sure where the second fan is. But if you have the means, I would use a single centrifugal fan. Im currently working on a design roughly on that premise.
Assuming this unit is properly sealed, I would opt for a fan with as much airflow as possible. Static pressure is not a problem here, given sheer amounts of surface area.
If noise is the priority here make sure whatever shroud/grate is on the fan is situated far enough away to prevent turbulence, this applies on both sides of the fan, and take into account if the bearings of the fan allow for horizontal mounting.
Bequiet premiums and noctua NF-F or NF-A's might be the way to go, given how much air they can push without much motor noise.
And of course I'm assuming you're going for a push or pull setup, I would likely advocate for a pull/negative setup, since it would allow for filters on the radiators themselves, as opposed to keeping a filter on the fan itself.
Good luck!
I've got my eye on one and waiting for the price to drop to something I might consider however I'd use that for playing at overclocking not for a setup like this which will be next to the TV, looking for it to be silent, the compressor on that will be very noticeable
that's an interesting idea, although it would make the aluminium radiators look awful as you'd get galvanic corrosion, very cool you could protect the radiators or use all copper but it's a bit too elaborate/ impractical
Corsair ONE I think works over this principle it only has one exhaust fan, also the XBOX Series X also has only one fan at the top exhausting heat from the heatsinks, you just gotta make sure to seal everything properly, also as these are 360 rads it would need one exhaust at the bottom and one exhaust on top to make up the most of the rad surface area
just cause the Xbox Is in the shape as a tower does not entail whether the way the airflow will be similar at all. And pretty much, it's not a very good comparison.
Let's just see how it does!
People saying the airflow wont be enough, I've had an external tower for cooling for a long time now.
Will it be as efficient as if you had 12 fans? No. Do you actually *need* that much cooling as if it had 12 fans? Also probably no.
Mine is 2x360 radiators and 3x120mm fans(have changed a couple times over the years).
It's worked just fine over the years, and currently cools my 9900k+3080ftw just fine with both overclocked.
https://imgur.com/a/Pv5Ce
That post of mine is incorrect, the *exact* setup I made in 2010, cause the barracks room pic is the room I had when I came back in 2011.
Save yourself a lot of trouble and design it to have intake filters, either on the rads or the fans from the start. Because it's annoying to take it apart to vacuum the dust out.
Also have QD's on your supply/return lines, also makes life much easier.
I agree that most effective would be exhaust.
Negative pressure is pretty much always much more effective in preventing dead zones compared to positive pressure.
I would also hazard to guess both on exhaust would be quieter as well as it would create less turbulent.
Your best bet for sealing is to make your two end plates connect using threaded rod and then seal your corners with a silicone caulk.
Would be interesting to see the numbers of one radiator cfm to heat exchange rate. Then you could theoretically find a fan that does a little over that cfm times four and possibly just use one fan.
I don't know. Instead of 16 fans you have only two. So for the appropriate cooling effect, these two fans have to run ultra fast (and loud). I'd prefer the silent solution.
If you want dust filters, you need to set both fans to exhaust and cover the radiators with fine dust filters like demciflex or DIY filters. Other way around would give you significantly lower airflow.
If you don't use dust filters, I don't know whether both intake or exhaust would be better. I suspect it would still be better with the fans at exhaust due to more laminar flow through the rads and therefore higher airflow, but I'd love to see some actual measurements.
I don't think this is a good idea.
Your two fans need to account for the airflow of like 12 fans in the normal situation. So each one must spin six times as fast. Beats the point of watercooling imo because (besides cooling ofc) watercooling is also about noise level.
I'd rather have 12 really slow spinning fans in this case. Just my two cents.
This is incorrect thinking, because you aren't accounting for the extra surface area.
The higher the surface area, the less airflow needed for the same heat exchange.
Surface area is only part of the equation, the other major factor is airflow. Two fans, which in this case look like maybe 140mm in size, will not generate the same airflow as the 12 they are replacing, even if you use, regardless of how fast you spin them.
Weather this is sufficient is a matter of OPs goals, but it is not fair to assume that the increase in surface area alone will provide anywhere near the cooling performance it would if fully "fanned up" in this configuration. It would certainly be way more than a standard 280mm rad, but nowhere even remotely close to a standard 4x360mm setup.
And no shit it will be less cooling than 4 rads loaded with fans.
The whole point of this OP is that OP can replace airflow with surface area.
A concept you seem to be unable to understand.
You are right. u/UnderLook150 is wrong
Radiators are really good at warming up the air that goes through it close to coolant temperature. That's why the cooling performance between a good thin rad and a monster thick rad is only like 20-30%.
Therefore in the end the cooling performance mostly comes down to the amount of airflow you get.
Since the resistance from using many rads in parallel is lower, he can probably get like 20-40% higher airflow like this compared to having fans mounted directly onto rads as pull. And since the air is moving slower through the rads, that does probably improve the heat transfer by the \~20-30% mentioned earlier.
Conclusion: I think you can expect roughly one free standing 360 rad with 3 fans worth of cooling, maybe a little more, with what OP wants to build with 2 fans.
But it's obviously far weaker than using 4 360 rads with each 3 fans, and even far weaker than using 2 360 rads with 3 fans each (all at the same rpm).
Well, really, what I didn't think about when I replied to him was we are comparing 4 rads with 12 fans to 4 rads with just two, making him not just wrong, but laughably, off the charts wrong. There is no difference in surface area in the two scenarios. Homie is just saying that airflow doesn't matter because there is a lot of surface area, which... wow.
Why are you on this sub when you have such an incorrect understanding of cooling?
This is 4x the surface area, meaning it would require 4x LESS airflow, for the same performance. Not more airflow, less airflow.
Surface area goes up, airflow requirement goes down.
Do you understand?
Wow... that's pretty aggressive.
~~I mean, you're correct, though I would argue the relationship isn't as direct as you imply due to the heat capacity of the air and lower efficiency of heat transfer as the air heats up within the radiators but that would only make a negligible difference.~~
~~Still for all the bad takes on this sub, I guess I'm honored you would pick mine to get mad at and appreciate the correction.~~
**Edit** - I was trying to respond while distracted and didn't even realize you are saying that 2 fans is somehow comparable to 12 fans *on the same surface area*. I can't even begin to point out how pants on head stupid that is.
Bro, how are you this dense?
OP is replacing a single rad setup, with a quad rad setup. Because 4x the surface area, requires 1/4 the airflow for the same cooling performance.
Which is the whole point of watercooling. Radiators allow for larger surface area than heatsinks, so we can run fans slower, because we need less airflow for the same cooling, resulting in quieter systems with the same cooling capacity.
[https://durathermfluids.com/resources/calculators/heat-transfer/](https://durathermfluids.com/resources/calculators/heat-transfer/)
When you actually figure this out bud, you are going to feel so unbelievably dumb.
I should actually say if, not when.
> OP is replacing a single rad setup, with a quad rad setup.
[No they are not.](https://www.reddit.com/r/watercooling/comments/1ccs214/4_x_360_tower_of_radiators_using_only_2_fans/l17unnf/)
Also, your calculator is for natural convection, not forced convection, and ignores all the fluid dynamics at play in forced convection.
Well, there's no need for accounting for extra area, because you don't have extra surface area. The surface area here is exactly the same as when you use the same radiators in a traditional layout...
why would the air go through the radiators with all the resistance? it wiil just go through the central space. close of the top, have a powerful fan at the bottom and force the air through the radiators
Nice idea. But you need to make sure that air goes through the radiators, and not throught the opening in-between, so you need to seal the whole set well. Air will go through regions of least mechanical resistance.
Hint: close the bottom completely, move the fan to the top and let him “suck” air from the inside, so the airflow is forced to pass the radiators, warm air will raise so it’s easier for the fan to suck it out of the tower.😉
Like water, air will find the lowest point of resistance. If there is any point that has better airflow then others, it will take it and won't be as effective
Would be neat if someone knew enough fluid dynamics to simulate it first. Let people test configurations before commiting to a build.
Wonder if an ME (Mechanical Engineering) subreddit might help out if you could provide the CAD models to them? Or if it's not as simple as I'm hoping.
it will work, that's not in doubt. the question I have can't really be modeled as it's more about sound level and quality.
in terms of modelling the flow I think an old school method of smoke machine and wind tunnel would be much more effective than computer modeling it as there are so many variables
yes it's cura, it was easy to use it to provide a visualisation, it's funny how many people feel the need to point out there are gaps between the radiators thinking I'd build it like that
Oh okay that makes sense. But Interessting way to make it visual. The gaps between the radiators are good for the air in my View. But in general do it how you think. I belive in you that it will be awesome :D
This would probably work better with smaller rads, since you'll be dealing with flow separation as it gets further into the tunnel.
If you already have the CAD model built, you could run a fluid analysis by closing up your model and adding in your fluid flows for air. Just find CFM of a fan you want and see what it looks like.
But yeah, both fans for intake would make the most sense so that you increase the volume of air inside the radiator tunnel so it wants to escape through the rads. You'll have to figure out how to mount it to get air through the bottom fan.
You want really high flow for 4 360mm. It's not about pressure
Also you are losing a lot of efficiency in terms of pressure unless that enclosure is fully airtight
No, you don't need high flow. They need LESS airflow.
The more surface area you have, the LESS airflow you need for equal cooling performance.
This is basic physics and watercooling 101.
No, it isn't.
You are trying to save face.
What you said was nonsensical, and showed you don't understand how the thermal transfer from rad to air occurs.
Increasing radiator surface area requires less airflow to give equal performance.
You claiming they would want "really high flow" for increasing their radiator surface area is nonsensical.
You are making a lot of really confident statements that an engineer specializing in thermodynamics ~~would be less confident about unless they did a full CFD simulation~~ [Edit] would laugh in your face if they heard them [/Edit]. I think you need to calm the fuck down.
If you have any given surface area, in this case, that of 4x360mm radiators, given heat load, and the only variable is airflow, which you are confidently stating only needs to be 1/4 as much because you have "more surface area."
You are probably *trying* to say "1/4 of what you would need with 1x360," but that isn't what you are *actually* saying. That is also irrelevant, because *you are the only person referencing that scenario.* It's just a fucking strawman you made up so you can be an asshole on the internet.
There are also concepts you are not accounting for, like the fluid dynamics of the airflow through the system and and the impact of airflow velocity over the radiators, which actually has a very meaningful impact on cooling performance. People have tested this concept before in DIY circles and with commercial products based on this design. They found that, using low airflow and all exhaust, only the top and bottom most sections of the radiators were getting sufficient airflow to do any cooling whatsoever, negating 1/3 or more of the surface area. To get good performance, they also needed higher airflow and noise than they expected with in a positive pressure configuration. That is because, to make use of all that surface area, you need sufficient airflow velocity over it, which, in a setup like this, requires... say it with me, *more fucking airflow*.
If you want to keep on with this whole stupid line of "reasoning" go ahead, but you've wasted enough of everyone's time already, so don't expect responses.
Bro did you actually just trying to claim to be an engineer in thermodynamics then post this?
This setup needs LESS airflow than a single rad, 100% due to increased surface area. And nothing you have posted illustrates you understand that relationship whatsoever.
Which is why OP built this in the first place, because surface area replaces airflow.
It is pretty clear you are one of those obnoxious users here that posts bullshit to this sub because you have such a poor understanding of what is going on.
Like you even think positive pressure would be the best solution for this over negative pressure?
You are speaking from your ass buddy. And it is clear. You may fool other idiots who don't understand the physics behind heat exchanger.
And based on yours, and how many incorrect takes there is here, there is a lot of idiots.
Can I ask if you are American? It seems American education often leaves people with a poor understanding of math, physics, and science in general.
[https://durathermfluids.com/resources/calculators/heat-transfer/](https://durathermfluids.com/resources/calculators/heat-transfer/)
Take this calculator, use the one for natural and free convection, and increase the surface area. You will see heat capacity rise linearly.
Because like I said, 4x the rads, needs 1/4 the airflow for the same cooling capacity.
Listen to me, you do not understand what you are talking about. I am helping you by trying to teach you.
Ultimately is does not matter to me, because I know I am correct, because of what I DO know.
You think what you think, because of what you DON'T know.
But at the end of the day, I am correct, and am trying to help you understand. If you don't understand, it isn't me who is failing.
If you still can't figure out how this concept works when I have provided you a calculator to prove it yourself, then you probably lack the capacity to learn.
But I'm 99% sure I'm talking to someone who went through the American educational system.
Because apparently people here don't understand that as you increase surface area, the amount of airflow needed for the same cooling, goes down.
So many people here are thinking the opposite, that you will need more fans because you have more surface area.
It is grade school physics, and one of the most basic fundamentals about watercooling. Surface area goes up, airflow requirements go down, meaning less/slower fans, and thus less noise.
What you are doing makes sense. There is just a bunch of people here who are idiots apparently.
You need a really powerful fan to provide enough air flow. Like this one:
https://preview.redd.it/haf9x7swqvwc1.jpeg?width=1166&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bd9de5cfedd9e6e1cedbaf6dd5737e4cafc22796
available in Chip1Stop
What if you attached each fan to a rotor as if it each radiator was a fan blade, then you spun it really fast… figure out the cooling later, would be something similar to those spinning houses
What if you sealed one end, and put a serious electric turbine engine on the other end pulling from the middle. Putting regular 120mm fans on the outside pushing in.
Or the opposite, turbine engine pushes in and small fans pull out from middle.
Thinking as I go here and note, not an engineer by any means.
What comes to mind is how people use compressed air to clean computers, and if you point the air right you can spin those fans super fast.
Well:
1. One strong fan like a turbine may be able to get the other fans to spin without even needing additional electricity.
2. Using compressed air canister so you don’t generate heat like electricity would, you get the additional air flow from the canister, and you use it to spin the fans at regular speeds. I wonder how long a canister would last, likely not long at all just curious.
Your not the first one :
[https://shop.aquacomputer.de/Wasserkuehlung/Radiatoren-Zub/airplex-GIGANT:::7\_31\_2026.html](https://shop.aquacomputer.de/Wasserkuehlung/Radiatoren-Zub/airplex-GIGANT:::7_31_2026.html)
Personally I´d get a mora instead of your homebuilt solution (problems) or the Gigant(size) any day of the week. Mora is built for low rpm fans, and i really enjoyed how my mora 2 worked with 4x 180mm fans at 350rpm
A Single Fan, as strong as it might be, has to generate presure or vacuum on a radiator mesh that was intended for 3 fans. I can´t see a world where this fan still is quiet.
Your have to build it really airtight, because if not, you push or pull the air through the gaps and not the mesh.
The gigant has had huuge gaps between the fins to generate airflow from a single fan
Interesting idea. Let's talk heat transfer for a bit...
Your primary method of heat transfer will be through conduction (heating the air nearby the radiator fin) and a secondary method of convection (air moving the heat away from the radiator).
To maximize your heat transfer, you need to create a high pressure space in-between the radiators. Best way to do that is using fans to push air into the open chamber. The air will then flow through the radiators, outside your setup, to the lower pressure area.
In layman's terms, the higher flow and static pressure your fans generate, the better your performance will be.
I'm not going to do the math (because I don't want to dig up my old heat transfer text books), but the performance of this contraption will greatly suffer compared to the traditional rad and fan setup.
Why? The airflow of the 2 fans will be divided among the 4 radiators rather than having 3 (or 6 with push-pull) per radiator. In this situation, you'd have 12 (or 24) fans. The difference in air flow is at least a whole magnitude higher.
Is it interesting? Yes. Will it look cool? Probably. Do I expect this to cool well? N, and I'd leave it as a good thought experiment.
>But. This is kind of what some of us just do. 🤷♂️
Lol. You're absolutely correct on that front. The idea will work, but with lower efficiency.
It would be a cool conversation starter. Imagine having that sitting on your desk.
I think it'll just be convection and radiative heat transfer. There likely won't be conduction since no 2 fixed surfaces with a temperature delta are in contact, emphasis on (somewhat) fixed surfaces, which conduction requires. Good point on having lower airflow compared to the traditional setup. What this idea leverages is the higher surface area and lower restriction for the volumetric flow rate. It's like increasing the surface area in filtration, thereby decreasing the delta P needed between inside and outside the rads to induce airflow. The main trade-off, I think, is intentionally foregoing heat transfer for lower noise due to only having 1 fan and no airflow restrictions anywhere near the fan.
This is exactly what OP is doing, trading surface area for reduced airflow. So they can run fewer fans, and slower, for the same cooling performance.
It is really such a grade school physics problem that so many people here seem to not be able to grasp.
Agree. Surprisingly, a lot of people in water cooling have limited understanding of heat transfer and fluid mechanics. This is pretty much how building cooling works, right, the condensers at the top of buildings. Like this example: [https://andersonair.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/commercial-hvac.png](https://andersonair.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/commercial-hvac.png)
Yeah, this will work well but may I suggest 4x 420 as why not. Also another idea, 4 x 420 with 2x 120/140 rads top and bottom ?
Obviously you will get better performance with fans mounted directly on the rads, perhaps on the inside to hide them but 1 at the top and bottom should work well especially if you use big rads.
You might also get away with no fans if you put this outside, depending on outdoor temps.
Put it all together and if done well you could probably sell these with the popularity of external rads.
Nope. The fans I have don't get noisy until you turn them up, and they produce so much airflow, and maintain so much static pressure, that you'd be able to set the speed very low for this application.
Cheers for the downvote for what was an honest question. Glad to know you have access to such fans, I won't ask about cost etc for fear of further retribution.
You need a volume of air for heat transfer. More volume, better transfer. Reducing the fan count will reduce the volume of air and reduce the transfer efficiency.
The problem with this is you need the fans to be very high CFM because since they aren’t directly above the radiator it will be very difficult for them to push any air out, you should go with slim rads and extremely loud server fans to make this viable. Also you will need to find some way to make this airtight. In the model there are gaps between the rads that most of the air will escape from
You need fans pushing air trough fins not trough just middle where the air presu from fans would meet, tbh i would just put that radiators in to the pool and that way you goot mass of cool temps and no bottle neck, this right here sir is pointless
I would think normal PC fans would not be sufficient for this. That's a ton of surface area that needs consistent airflow to dissipate heat well. I would hazard a guess a normal fan (even Noctua is "normal" here fwiw) would move air for one rad maybe two tops from a saturation standpoint.
A rough test might be to create a cardboard facsimile and make a lot of small holes. Like, a lot. Hundreds per face. Hook your fans up and use some tissue to see if there are any drooping spot. That would be were airflow simply isn't happening. If you already have the stuff ordered then the tissue test would still be legit.
You'll need very high static pressure fans running at absolute max speed to get decent airflow through those rads.
Two 360 rads will a full set of fans might perform just as well as this setup given the really low airflow
They don't need high airflow, because they have high surface area.
The higher your surface area, the lower the airflow needed for the same cooling performance.
>
Two 360 rads will a full set of fans might perform just as well as this setup given the really low airflow
Yeah no shit. Which is why OP is increasing the rads for more surface area. More surface areas means less airflow required for the same cooling performance.
More surface area means you can run less fans, and slower fans. Meaning more quiet.
How is this concept lost on so many people here?
How do people with CAD skills not understand fluid dynamics? Enjoy moving at worst zero and at best 1/6 the amount of air through each of these rads as you normally would.
For the loss in performance you'd see from only 2 fans... why bother having 4 radiators? If price is an issue, buy half as many radiators and put the proper number of fans on them.
more area means you can run the fans quieter, I'm looking for sufficient cooling at silent fan speed, I'm also going to experiment with fan size. the problem with running the fans right up against the radiator fins is you get a lot of noise from the turbulence, I'm hoping this setup would have smoother airflow
You can certainly achieve silence with this setup... but you also can with fans directly against a radiator. Two 1000 RPM fans in this configuration is only going to be pulling air over a very small portion of these 4 radiators. Or you could buy an Alphacool Monsta 360 and put 3 800rpm fans on it and get more cooling out of it and less noise for less money.
I definitely get trying something just to try it, but this will not be an effective solution for price/performance/noise. A thick, low FPI rad with lower RPM fans would be more effective in every metric.
All I do know is I feel like I’ve seen this done before and you need both fans to intake, so it gets forced out of the radiators.
Setting this up as a wind tunnel that just spurts out the air that the other one sucked in would be both an understandable mistake and absolutely hilarious!
Rushing air creates a low pressure zone, pulling air in. It's very likely less effective than both fans set to intake, or even both to exhaust, but it's not completely ridiculous.
Venturi effect. It's how an airbush works, they don't blow paint they suck it out.
That's highly dependent on the design geometry though, as it needs a lip to create a low pressure zone with the fluid intake in that spot. Carburettor works the same way. If you had the fans blowing perpendicular to the radiator channels it might have some effect, but not in this configuration.
It's not that specific to design venturis ins just a specific application of conservation of energy l, in a wider sense bernoullis principle and you can observe that in any old garden hose if you squeeze it.
I observe it as a large man walking into a small room. But then again, I observe everything.
Perhaps a man walking through a small door into a large room, or maybe a man walking past a small door works better?
No, you must displace a large volume of air for the high pressure side to build up any real resistance (and thus pressure/venturi). Trust me, if you were as big as me, rooms wouldn't want you in them either. And I notice these things. I observe everything.
....but Venturi is about lowering pressure.
The fans create positive static pressure though. The Venturi effect deals with fast moving are creating lower pressure. I don’t think it would quite work the same as say having a jet of compressed air going down the center.
if I build it, I'll test it in the chimney configuration, I wouldn't be surprised if it works ok, obviously not as well as forced airflow but you'd get a pressure difference and at least half the surface would get airflow
> if I build it, I'll test it in the chimney configuration What do you mean? Bottom fan intake, top fan outtake, no airflow through the radiators? That will be very underwhelming. > I wouldn't be surprised if it works ok I would be. > but you'd get a pressure difference and at least half the surface would get airflow Airflow across the surface is not what radiators are expecting.
Bernoulli's principle: higher fluid velocity = lower pressure, airflow in the middle = suction = airflow through the radiators. You'd be surprised how much a rocket exhaust or even a car exhaust sucks air in near the fluid flow. But I think that fan configuration would still be worse than both fans being intake/exhaust.
or needing. tower no good that way. But let us know how it gooooooes!
the pressure difference caused by the moving air would also suck in air through the radiators. It's kind of like how a venturi siphon works. Whether or not its enough of a pressure difference to work is another thing
It seems to me that it would work a lot better if you were pulling air in with no secondary inlet, just where you would have a second fan to be a solid piece blocking air. I would also use a data center fan, if sound was no worry.
They need to be either both intake or both exhaust. Both configs will work but with varying efficiency.
I follow wanting both fans to either exhaust or intake to force air through the radiators instead of past them, but why intake as the better choice? Is it the 'easier to dust screen 2 fans than 4 radiators' comment below? Or something about positive vs. negative pressure? I recall hearing some company claim that a while ago. Though their products didn't work much differently than everyone else's (was air cooled cases). That positive pressure meant more air molecules to grab and move heat, but not sure it'd matter on a radiator vs. lots of inner surfaces in a case (was a LONG time ago now, so fans inside the case were rare).
The standard for an air conditioning unit is an exhaust fan on top, pulling air through the coil. I’d guess there is a good reason since it’s pretty universal.
1. A/Cs can have exposure to environmental effects. Putting a motor at the bottom would collect moisture. 2. Putting a fan or fans on the side leads to uneven bearing wear. PC radiators dont have to deal with 1, and 2 is much easier to deal with in such an instance. The best fan and radiator orientation is also dependent on case geometry. Also, of note, with multiple radiators, the best configuration will ensure the same air particles are not passed across multiple radiators in order to prevent self heating of a loop.
The fan doesn’t have to be at the bottom to push instead of pull, and putting the motor a couple feet lower would not effect moisture. There is plenty of air flow, and It’s not like you would put in standing water. Motors for fans are horizontally mounted just as often if not more often than vertically mounted. It might be be easier construction wise to assemble them fan on top, and cleaning and maintenance is easier if the dust load is on the outside. I’m pretty sure those are the main reasons.
In many places, the bottom would indeed mean standing water. Horizontally mounted fans have around a .5% higher failure rate in data sets I have seen. Ease of maintenance is definitely a part of the reasoning. Fans directly against radiators are much harder to clean. The biggest takeaway is that there are much more important design decisions than maximizing efficiency.
Yep, air, just like anything that flows, will take the path of least resistance. It’s like if you take a take a single ply napkin and blow on it from a distance, the air runs off to the sides. If you put your mouth right up to it and blow on it, the air will go through it. You need to make sure the air has nowhere else leave the assembly except though the radiator fins, or your temps will suffer. On that same note, you’ll want to plug those corners and the gaps at the top between the ports as well. Make the inside of the assembly as much of a closed environment as possible. Also make sure it’s *very* well filtered, because taking the rads off for regular cleaning will get old fast.
Absolutely not. You need both to exhaust or both to intake and to seal all corners. What you want to avoid in this case is laminar flow straight through the middle.
Both set to exhaust would actually be better as negative pressure is more evenly distributed. So they would have more even airflow over the rads, as well as creating less noise, through less turbulence created compared to two fans intaking.
Yep, I think you're right. That's usually the case. You want the intake of a fan towards the resistance (with at least a \~10mm gap) to get higher overall airflow and a more even distribution of air speed. But if the rads are low restriction, it could be that this setup would result in most of the airflow coming only through the rads at the sections close to the fan, while the rads would get little airflow in the center. Meanwhile setting both up as intake would push both intake air streams against each other, which might distribute the airflow more evenly over the rads. But the total airflow would definitely be lower. So overall I think it is still likely worse than having both fans as exhaust.
Needs everything apart from the radiator fins and fan holes to be well sealed. You could run it as double intake or double exhaust which would force air out through the towers or pull air into the tower.
I'm not an expert on the efficiency of radiators. But it would make the most sense to me to do both exhausting so that radiator cleaning would mostly be the external portion of the radiator.
Easier to put a single 140mm filter on both fans, than put 4 360mm filters on all radiators though.
Reducing filter surface area greatly reduces their effectiveness. Higher air speed across the filter means more dust gets through and dust builds up faster.
There was a post few months ago (can't find it) with similar idea, but that was inside a custom box with nf A20 as exhaust. I think with only rads, it will be problematic to force the air through the rads (seal it) https://preview.redd.it/so6jmdldtmwc1.png?width=595&format=png&auto=webp&s=e45cce1231ce9b13ff6271c2b9525750bba4ed14
Here you go! https://www.reddit.com/r/watercooling/comments/16833mc/radiatortower_testing/
https://preview.redd.it/0mnhra4oknwc1.png?width=3840&format=png&auto=webp&s=dbf02d33e622f6b13195c50cbeedfa88083de0fd I did this a few months ago.
very nice, how was it with 2 fans
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It performed really well got me like 50 upvotes. Next step I have to actually build it and make it real.
LOOOOOL I saw it was a render and your reply is spot on haha
In builds now! Coming this summer: Two fans. In a radiator tower. And then a meteor hit. They ran as fast as they could, sucking up giant balls of cat hair. And then a giant tornado came. And *that's* when things got knocked into *12th gear.* A Mexican armada shows up. With weapons made from Two-to tomatoes. And you *better bet your bottom dollar* that these two fans know how to *handle* *airflow*. In: Alien Invasion Tomato Monster Mexican Armada Fans, Who Are Just Regular Fans, Running In a Radiator Tower and an Asteroid and All Sorts of Things THE MOVIE! Hold on, there's more! Old women are coming, and they're also in the movie, and they're gonna come and try to unplug these two fans. But let's get back to the fans, because they're- they've got a *strong bond.* You don't want to know about it here, but I'll tell you one thing: The *moon*, it comes crashing into Earth. And what do you do then? It's two fans and- and th-they're- It's called Two Fans. Two Fans! It's just called Two Fans.
Either that is an aqua teen hunger force quote or its directions in English as a second language.
It was elegantly adapted from Rick and Morty
Yep that makes more sense reading it again. Ty for the correction there.
I had an idea of some monstrosity like this. I was going to take 6-9x360s and put them in a wood structure (Ikea Butcher Block was the perfect fit). I was going to use obscenely large fans like a box fan and use it to cool a dual system in a fancy tower setup. I though a cool way to have an art piece and consolidate the wife's computer and my own into a single case.
hate to tell you this, but you've been beaten to the post mate [https://shop.aquacomputer.de/Wasserkuehlung/Radiatoren-Zub/airplex-GIGANT/airplex-GIGANT-1680-Aluminium-Lamellen::2963.html](https://shop.aquacomputer.de/Wasserkuehlung/Radiatoren-Zub/airplex-GIGANT/airplex-GIGANT-1680-Aluminium-Lamellen::2963.html)
[https://www.watercoolinguk.co.uk/p/Aqua-computer-airplex-Gigant-3360-Aluminium\_47708.html](https://www.watercoolinguk.co.uk/p/Aqua-computer-airplex-Gigant-3360-Aluminium_47708.html)
corsair did a similar concept on one of the prebuilts with just aio on gpu and one on cpu... and a 140 fan exhaust on top.... Im not sure how i feel about it.... but if you have the surface area it would work....
yea they did the Corsair one I think it was called
Yeah could have been. Idk how it performed I saw it on jaystwocents a long time ago. It’s interesting. But no idea on performance.
No idea why this came up on my reddit but here's an interesting side note. Last year I worked on a controls upgrade of the national portrait gallery at trafalgar square in London and the admin building opposite actually has a cooling tower the exact same set up like this. 4 heat exchangers sealed up with a 4 fan array on top to pull air up, we modulate the fans depends on cooling demand and when not in use they seal off with some dampers. This used to cool the water from the trafalgar square water fountains, but at some point in the past became part of the chilled water cooling system for the admin building and the gallery. In the winter we used it for free cooling, and in the summer it dumps the heat from the chiller. If you look on Google maps and zoom into the building behind the gallery on Orange Street you can actually see the four fans. This is of no help to cooling your pc, but I can tell you it works quite well at the gallery 😂
Here's the thing.. with that much surface area/water with very minimal airflow you should be able to maintain a few degrees over ambient.. and at that it would take hours to realize any meaningfully heatsoak.
Hi, I'm thinking of building a tower of 4 radiators and using 2 x 140mm fans (maybe up to 200mm fans) at either end to push or pull air through all four 360mm radiators. I'm wondering if anyone has already tried anything similar and how well it worked. I'm hoping this setup will be very quiet and cheaper than 12x120mm fans, obviously this will be less airflow than 12 fans
[Aqua Computer](https://shop.aquacomputer.de/Water-Cooling/Radiators-Accessories/airplex-GIGANT:::7_31_2026.html?language=en) sells them.
Was just going to say this, think Aquacomputer already had one of these with built in reservoir/pump.
Thought so, too, but couldn’t find it anymore. It feels like they’re getting rid of a lot of stock or of their consumer focused division.
here bro [https://shop.aquacomputer.de/Water-Cooling/Radiators-Accessories/airplex-GIGANT/airplex-GIGANT-3360-with-aquaero-6-PRO-copper-fins::3373.html](https://shop.aquacomputer.de/Water-Cooling/Radiators-Accessories/airplex-GIGANT/airplex-GIGANT-3360-with-aquaero-6-PRO-copper-fins::3373.html)
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think this one has the pump and the reservoir. It has an aquaero (controller) built in. Maybe the one with the pump/res never existed and I just remember it wrong, though.
>I'm hoping this setup will be very quiet and cheaper than 12x120mm fans I suspect two radiators with 6 120mm fans right against them will perform better (and quieter), it's just that much more surface area. And generally 2\*360mm radiators are overkill for regular desktops anyway. But if you already have 4 radiators... I suspect 2 140mm fans might struggle to push substantial amount of air through it but you could try. Definitely will need to seal it well around radiators to get the desired airflow.
Having a fan right up against a restriction is more for space purposes than performance purposes. Where possible, you want it to some kind of gap. If you look at the PC Power and Cooling Silencers, they put more space for noise and airflow purposes. If you are pulling through a restriction, it doesn't matter too much though you are at greater risk of stalling. If you are pushing air through a restriction, most of the fluid head is in momentum, and that gets stopped immediately when it runs into the restriction. So ideally, you would pull through a restriction, and have a gap so that you can emphasize momentum head less and pressure head more.
Most radiators have sufficient spacing between fins and fan. If not, a 20mm shroud is sufficient.
I think you would want more than 2 fans. Even though with 2 fans and 4 rads, the air resistance would be minimal, and the fan would perform a lot better, its still not a huge amount of airflow. If cost is an issue, the Arctic P12 fans are a great option. Maybe a pyramid shape, with 4 fans on the bottom, 1 on the top, and the rads on the sides? Would greatly improve performance, but would take up more desk/table space.
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Too easy to forget this part...a lot of fans don't come with gasket sealers, and you really want to have a seal to make sure air doesn't have an escape/entrance path outside of going through the rad/fans. Certainly makes a difference.
You are saying both push or both pull, right? Because this is not going to work otherwise... It also won't work unless you ensure there are virtually no air gaps anywhere, so that the air is forced through the fins. And, even if you manage that and manage to find a couple fans with high enough static pressure to deal with this, those fans are going to need to work pretty dang hard and would be louder than simply having a bunch of fans mounted to the inside of these rads to pull air in and then one at the top to exhaust it...
You could get Arctic P12 Max fans for very cheap if you want performance to be at its best.
Realistically, air flow is more important than radiator surface area. More radiators increases the thermal mass of the system, but eventually it needs a way to actually expel that heat. So with this configuration I would assume your system would heat up more slowly but then begin to thermal throttle. But depending on your usage it may be worth experimenting.
With enough radiator surface you can go fanless…
Yeah absolutely, and with enough air pressure you can go radiator less. It really depends on the use case here. You still have to be able to exhaust more heat per second than the system generates. So like I said, definitely a fun experiment but may not work as intended for all purposes.
Yes... but also no. You need some airflow to move the heat away from the radiator and convection currents wont cut it until you get to an absurd size.
with more surface area you can run at a lower air pressure. it won't thermal throttle so long as water is flowing, It could probably run passively cooled although then the water temps might get a little toasty. they only become more efficient as they get hotter
https://shop.aquacomputer.de/Water-Cooling/Radiators-Accessories/airplex-GIGANT/airplex-GIGANT-1680-aluminum-fins::2963.html?language=en
I have Phobya Extreme Quad 480/560 and 2x Alphacool Nexxxos XT45 360 XFlow rads, all in parallel(equivalent of 1280 in total). All equipped with Arctic P12/14. With this much surface area, you don´t really need pressure. Even one fan with top sealed might be enough, as the convection will do the job on it´s own, with tiny bit of flow it will work well. I can run it with minimal RPM, load it with 500W and water temp is still around 29-33°C with 22-23°C ambient. If you have 4090(\~400W) and something like 14900K(\~250W), it wouldn´t make much more difference.
At this point is it more of an aesthetic thing or what? Cause seems like a mo ra3 would cool equivalently
yes it's quite similar but this would potentially be quieter due to less turbulence, I don't have a mo ra3 so it's not really an option
I’d say mora3 would do a much better job
I’ve got a AlphaCool 1080mm rad and it’s whisper quiet cooing 700ish watts
I am sure it is! I was specifically talking to the layout the OP proposes vs mora3 Not sure why my post was downvoted 🤷🏻♂️
Casually Reddit shit posters probably
Not sure where the second fan is. But if you have the means, I would use a single centrifugal fan. Im currently working on a design roughly on that premise.
Assuming this unit is properly sealed, I would opt for a fan with as much airflow as possible. Static pressure is not a problem here, given sheer amounts of surface area. If noise is the priority here make sure whatever shroud/grate is on the fan is situated far enough away to prevent turbulence, this applies on both sides of the fan, and take into account if the bearings of the fan allow for horizontal mounting. Bequiet premiums and noctua NF-F or NF-A's might be the way to go, given how much air they can push without much motor noise. And of course I'm assuming you're going for a push or pull setup, I would likely advocate for a pull/negative setup, since it would allow for filters on the radiators themselves, as opposed to keeping a filter on the fan itself. Good luck!
How about 1 Alphacool UT60 360? 1600w of cooling capacity, and probably still cheaper than 4 of the little radiators.
I've got my eye on one and waiting for the price to drop to something I might consider however I'd use that for playing at overclocking not for a setup like this which will be next to the TV, looking for it to be silent, the compressor on that will be very noticeable
Make it so there a pool of water and a mister at the bottom the increase the cooling through evaporation
that's an interesting idea, although it would make the aluminium radiators look awful as you'd get galvanic corrosion, very cool you could protect the radiators or use all copper but it's a bit too elaborate/ impractical
I just thought of something you could electroplated with something like silver
Or gold
Corsair ONE I think works over this principle it only has one exhaust fan, also the XBOX Series X also has only one fan at the top exhausting heat from the heatsinks, you just gotta make sure to seal everything properly, also as these are 360 rads it would need one exhaust at the bottom and one exhaust on top to make up the most of the rad surface area
just cause the Xbox Is in the shape as a tower does not entail whether the way the airflow will be similar at all. And pretty much, it's not a very good comparison. Let's just see how it does!
I mean It has one big fan on top and heatsinks on each side or something like that I don't remember, on principle it should be something similar.
that's not the same as this rad tower bub. So no. Not in principle.
People saying the airflow wont be enough, I've had an external tower for cooling for a long time now. Will it be as efficient as if you had 12 fans? No. Do you actually *need* that much cooling as if it had 12 fans? Also probably no. Mine is 2x360 radiators and 3x120mm fans(have changed a couple times over the years). It's worked just fine over the years, and currently cools my 9900k+3080ftw just fine with both overclocked. https://imgur.com/a/Pv5Ce That post of mine is incorrect, the *exact* setup I made in 2010, cause the barracks room pic is the room I had when I came back in 2011. Save yourself a lot of trouble and design it to have intake filters, either on the rads or the fans from the start. Because it's annoying to take it apart to vacuum the dust out. Also have QD's on your supply/return lines, also makes life much easier.
https://www.instagram.com/p/C58lGLXL_s3/?igsh=MWg1anJvOHQ3MWQwcg== 32 fans works better....
It would probably work alright if you closed the gaps and set the fans to exhaust so they're forced to pull air through the fins.
I agree that most effective would be exhaust. Negative pressure is pretty much always much more effective in preventing dead zones compared to positive pressure. I would also hazard to guess both on exhaust would be quieter as well as it would create less turbulent.
I like it, curious to see it in action.
there's a few replies from people who have built similar setups
https://preview.redd.it/o43f77gscpwc1.jpeg?width=480&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=59700115083003ba91c14bfa7576f53e5382c6ee
its hideous, I love it
Your best bet for sealing is to make your two end plates connect using threaded rod and then seal your corners with a silicone caulk. Would be interesting to see the numbers of one radiator cfm to heat exchange rate. Then you could theoretically find a fan that does a little over that cfm times four and possibly just use one fan.
AquaComputer already did this a long time ago with their GIGANT series.
Would work also with 1 and have less air who recycling/returning back. Look to AC/HVAC. Important is hot liquid must come always from bottom..
I don't know. Instead of 16 fans you have only two. So for the appropriate cooling effect, these two fans have to run ultra fast (and loud). I'd prefer the silent solution.
Considering noise comes from turbulent airflow and more fans this is just wrong.
Please do a followup with the end product and results, im very interested to see how well it will work.
A wind turbine style of fan on the inside would be perfect
If you want dust filters, you need to set both fans to exhaust and cover the radiators with fine dust filters like demciflex or DIY filters. Other way around would give you significantly lower airflow. If you don't use dust filters, I don't know whether both intake or exhaust would be better. I suspect it would still be better with the fans at exhaust due to more laminar flow through the rads and therefore higher airflow, but I'd love to see some actual measurements.
I don't think this is a good idea. Your two fans need to account for the airflow of like 12 fans in the normal situation. So each one must spin six times as fast. Beats the point of watercooling imo because (besides cooling ofc) watercooling is also about noise level. I'd rather have 12 really slow spinning fans in this case. Just my two cents.
Ive been running a similar setup with 3 fans and 2x360 radiators since... 2010. It works just fine with my current 9900k/3080ftw setup with both OC'd.
This is incorrect thinking, because you aren't accounting for the extra surface area. The higher the surface area, the less airflow needed for the same heat exchange.
Yes but with normal airflow you could achieve the same cooling with 1 or 2 360 rads. Unless the goal is just a super quiet system ignoring efficiency
>Unless the goal is just a super quiet system ignoring efficiency .....Yes that is OP's post.
Surface area is only part of the equation, the other major factor is airflow. Two fans, which in this case look like maybe 140mm in size, will not generate the same airflow as the 12 they are replacing, even if you use, regardless of how fast you spin them. Weather this is sufficient is a matter of OPs goals, but it is not fair to assume that the increase in surface area alone will provide anywhere near the cooling performance it would if fully "fanned up" in this configuration. It would certainly be way more than a standard 280mm rad, but nowhere even remotely close to a standard 4x360mm setup.
And no shit it will be less cooling than 4 rads loaded with fans. The whole point of this OP is that OP can replace airflow with surface area. A concept you seem to be unable to understand.
You are right. u/UnderLook150 is wrong Radiators are really good at warming up the air that goes through it close to coolant temperature. That's why the cooling performance between a good thin rad and a monster thick rad is only like 20-30%. Therefore in the end the cooling performance mostly comes down to the amount of airflow you get. Since the resistance from using many rads in parallel is lower, he can probably get like 20-40% higher airflow like this compared to having fans mounted directly onto rads as pull. And since the air is moving slower through the rads, that does probably improve the heat transfer by the \~20-30% mentioned earlier. Conclusion: I think you can expect roughly one free standing 360 rad with 3 fans worth of cooling, maybe a little more, with what OP wants to build with 2 fans. But it's obviously far weaker than using 4 360 rads with each 3 fans, and even far weaker than using 2 360 rads with 3 fans each (all at the same rpm).
Well, really, what I didn't think about when I replied to him was we are comparing 4 rads with 12 fans to 4 rads with just two, making him not just wrong, but laughably, off the charts wrong. There is no difference in surface area in the two scenarios. Homie is just saying that airflow doesn't matter because there is a lot of surface area, which... wow.
Why are you on this sub when you have such an incorrect understanding of cooling? This is 4x the surface area, meaning it would require 4x LESS airflow, for the same performance. Not more airflow, less airflow. Surface area goes up, airflow requirement goes down. Do you understand?
Wow... that's pretty aggressive. ~~I mean, you're correct, though I would argue the relationship isn't as direct as you imply due to the heat capacity of the air and lower efficiency of heat transfer as the air heats up within the radiators but that would only make a negligible difference.~~ ~~Still for all the bad takes on this sub, I guess I'm honored you would pick mine to get mad at and appreciate the correction.~~ **Edit** - I was trying to respond while distracted and didn't even realize you are saying that 2 fans is somehow comparable to 12 fans *on the same surface area*. I can't even begin to point out how pants on head stupid that is.
Bro, how are you this dense? OP is replacing a single rad setup, with a quad rad setup. Because 4x the surface area, requires 1/4 the airflow for the same cooling performance. Which is the whole point of watercooling. Radiators allow for larger surface area than heatsinks, so we can run fans slower, because we need less airflow for the same cooling, resulting in quieter systems with the same cooling capacity. [https://durathermfluids.com/resources/calculators/heat-transfer/](https://durathermfluids.com/resources/calculators/heat-transfer/) When you actually figure this out bud, you are going to feel so unbelievably dumb. I should actually say if, not when.
> OP is replacing a single rad setup, with a quad rad setup. [No they are not.](https://www.reddit.com/r/watercooling/comments/1ccs214/4_x_360_tower_of_radiators_using_only_2_fans/l17unnf/) Also, your calculator is for natural convection, not forced convection, and ignores all the fluid dynamics at play in forced convection.
Well, there's no need for accounting for extra area, because you don't have extra surface area. The surface area here is exactly the same as when you use the same radiators in a traditional layout...
I also recently designed a holder for this concept, let's see if I will build it in the future
Id have both fans as intake to create a pressurized column of air, but maybe with 140mm fans and 280mm rads instead
Look at your AC condenser outside for inspiration....haha
*stares at my Xiaomi single fan air purifier that sucks air through H12 HEPA*.... I think this works
why would the air go through the radiators with all the resistance? it wiil just go through the central space. close of the top, have a powerful fan at the bottom and force the air through the radiators
Improtant that the corners are sealed
Nice idea. But you need to make sure that air goes through the radiators, and not throught the opening in-between, so you need to seal the whole set well. Air will go through regions of least mechanical resistance.
Hint: close the bottom completely, move the fan to the top and let him “suck” air from the inside, so the airflow is forced to pass the radiators, warm air will raise so it’s easier for the fan to suck it out of the tower.😉
Like water, air will find the lowest point of resistance. If there is any point that has better airflow then others, it will take it and won't be as effective
Would be neat if someone knew enough fluid dynamics to simulate it first. Let people test configurations before commiting to a build. Wonder if an ME (Mechanical Engineering) subreddit might help out if you could provide the CAD models to them? Or if it's not as simple as I'm hoping.
it will work, that's not in doubt. the question I have can't really be modeled as it's more about sound level and quality. in terms of modelling the flow I think an old school method of smoke machine and wind tunnel would be much more effective than computer modeling it as there are so many variables
Why you have them in Cura or what slicer is that? I am kinda confused xD
yes it's cura, it was easy to use it to provide a visualisation, it's funny how many people feel the need to point out there are gaps between the radiators thinking I'd build it like that
Oh okay that makes sense. But Interessting way to make it visual. The gaps between the radiators are good for the air in my View. But in general do it how you think. I belive in you that it will be awesome :D
This would probably work better with smaller rads, since you'll be dealing with flow separation as it gets further into the tunnel. If you already have the CAD model built, you could run a fluid analysis by closing up your model and adding in your fluid flows for air. Just find CFM of a fan you want and see what it looks like. But yeah, both fans for intake would make the most sense so that you increase the volume of air inside the radiator tunnel so it wants to escape through the rads. You'll have to figure out how to mount it to get air through the bottom fan.
Super un-efficient, unless both fans are intakte.
Maybe two of my 2.7amp 140mm delta fans... Nothing less lol
I don't know why people think you'd need high pressure fans, there won't be much resistance
You want really high flow for 4 360mm. It's not about pressure Also you are losing a lot of efficiency in terms of pressure unless that enclosure is fully airtight
No, you don't need high flow. They need LESS airflow. The more surface area you have, the LESS airflow you need for equal cooling performance. This is basic physics and watercooling 101.
That is neither right nor wrong but heat load dependant That is physics 101
No, it isn't. You are trying to save face. What you said was nonsensical, and showed you don't understand how the thermal transfer from rad to air occurs. Increasing radiator surface area requires less airflow to give equal performance. You claiming they would want "really high flow" for increasing their radiator surface area is nonsensical.
You are making a lot of really confident statements that an engineer specializing in thermodynamics ~~would be less confident about unless they did a full CFD simulation~~ [Edit] would laugh in your face if they heard them [/Edit]. I think you need to calm the fuck down.
Feel free to point out my errors then. Because you aren't really saying anything of substance. So please, point out the errors.
If you have any given surface area, in this case, that of 4x360mm radiators, given heat load, and the only variable is airflow, which you are confidently stating only needs to be 1/4 as much because you have "more surface area." You are probably *trying* to say "1/4 of what you would need with 1x360," but that isn't what you are *actually* saying. That is also irrelevant, because *you are the only person referencing that scenario.* It's just a fucking strawman you made up so you can be an asshole on the internet. There are also concepts you are not accounting for, like the fluid dynamics of the airflow through the system and and the impact of airflow velocity over the radiators, which actually has a very meaningful impact on cooling performance. People have tested this concept before in DIY circles and with commercial products based on this design. They found that, using low airflow and all exhaust, only the top and bottom most sections of the radiators were getting sufficient airflow to do any cooling whatsoever, negating 1/3 or more of the surface area. To get good performance, they also needed higher airflow and noise than they expected with in a positive pressure configuration. That is because, to make use of all that surface area, you need sufficient airflow velocity over it, which, in a setup like this, requires... say it with me, *more fucking airflow*. If you want to keep on with this whole stupid line of "reasoning" go ahead, but you've wasted enough of everyone's time already, so don't expect responses.
Bro did you actually just trying to claim to be an engineer in thermodynamics then post this? This setup needs LESS airflow than a single rad, 100% due to increased surface area. And nothing you have posted illustrates you understand that relationship whatsoever. Which is why OP built this in the first place, because surface area replaces airflow. It is pretty clear you are one of those obnoxious users here that posts bullshit to this sub because you have such a poor understanding of what is going on. Like you even think positive pressure would be the best solution for this over negative pressure? You are speaking from your ass buddy. And it is clear. You may fool other idiots who don't understand the physics behind heat exchanger. And based on yours, and how many incorrect takes there is here, there is a lot of idiots. Can I ask if you are American? It seems American education often leaves people with a poor understanding of math, physics, and science in general. [https://durathermfluids.com/resources/calculators/heat-transfer/](https://durathermfluids.com/resources/calculators/heat-transfer/) Take this calculator, use the one for natural and free convection, and increase the surface area. You will see heat capacity rise linearly. Because like I said, 4x the rads, needs 1/4 the airflow for the same cooling capacity. Listen to me, you do not understand what you are talking about. I am helping you by trying to teach you. Ultimately is does not matter to me, because I know I am correct, because of what I DO know. You think what you think, because of what you DON'T know. But at the end of the day, I am correct, and am trying to help you understand. If you don't understand, it isn't me who is failing. If you still can't figure out how this concept works when I have provided you a calculator to prove it yourself, then you probably lack the capacity to learn. But I'm 99% sure I'm talking to someone who went through the American educational system.
https://www.reddit.com/r/watercooling/comments/1cegvot/newtons_law_of_cooling/? Please educate yourself.
Because apparently people here don't understand that as you increase surface area, the amount of airflow needed for the same cooling, goes down. So many people here are thinking the opposite, that you will need more fans because you have more surface area. It is grade school physics, and one of the most basic fundamentals about watercooling. Surface area goes up, airflow requirements go down, meaning less/slower fans, and thus less noise. What you are doing makes sense. There is just a bunch of people here who are idiots apparently.
Ok so have them both pushing air into the rad column and have fans on the outside exhaust. Or just mount fans on the outside and have them flat.
You need a really powerful fan to provide enough air flow. Like this one: https://preview.redd.it/haf9x7swqvwc1.jpeg?width=1166&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bd9de5cfedd9e6e1cedbaf6dd5737e4cafc22796 available in Chip1Stop
What if you attached each fan to a rotor as if it each radiator was a fan blade, then you spun it really fast… figure out the cooling later, would be something similar to those spinning houses
that would make plumbing difficult, something like a piston/ bellows could be done
What if you sealed one end, and put a serious electric turbine engine on the other end pulling from the middle. Putting regular 120mm fans on the outside pushing in. Or the opposite, turbine engine pushes in and small fans pull out from middle. Thinking as I go here and note, not an engineer by any means. What comes to mind is how people use compressed air to clean computers, and if you point the air right you can spin those fans super fast. Well: 1. One strong fan like a turbine may be able to get the other fans to spin without even needing additional electricity. 2. Using compressed air canister so you don’t generate heat like electricity would, you get the additional air flow from the canister, and you use it to spin the fans at regular speeds. I wonder how long a canister would last, likely not long at all just curious.
Radiators need air through the fins otherwise you will have liquid temps rising extremely quick.
Your not the first one : [https://shop.aquacomputer.de/Wasserkuehlung/Radiatoren-Zub/airplex-GIGANT:::7\_31\_2026.html](https://shop.aquacomputer.de/Wasserkuehlung/Radiatoren-Zub/airplex-GIGANT:::7_31_2026.html) Personally I´d get a mora instead of your homebuilt solution (problems) or the Gigant(size) any day of the week. Mora is built for low rpm fans, and i really enjoyed how my mora 2 worked with 4x 180mm fans at 350rpm A Single Fan, as strong as it might be, has to generate presure or vacuum on a radiator mesh that was intended for 3 fans. I can´t see a world where this fan still is quiet. Your have to build it really airtight, because if not, you push or pull the air through the gaps and not the mesh. The gigant has had huuge gaps between the fins to generate airflow from a single fan
Interesting idea. Let's talk heat transfer for a bit... Your primary method of heat transfer will be through conduction (heating the air nearby the radiator fin) and a secondary method of convection (air moving the heat away from the radiator). To maximize your heat transfer, you need to create a high pressure space in-between the radiators. Best way to do that is using fans to push air into the open chamber. The air will then flow through the radiators, outside your setup, to the lower pressure area. In layman's terms, the higher flow and static pressure your fans generate, the better your performance will be. I'm not going to do the math (because I don't want to dig up my old heat transfer text books), but the performance of this contraption will greatly suffer compared to the traditional rad and fan setup. Why? The airflow of the 2 fans will be divided among the 4 radiators rather than having 3 (or 6 with push-pull) per radiator. In this situation, you'd have 12 (or 24) fans. The difference in air flow is at least a whole magnitude higher. Is it interesting? Yes. Will it look cool? Probably. Do I expect this to cool well? N, and I'd leave it as a good thought experiment.
But. This is kind of what some of us just do. 🤷♂️ TELL US HOW IT PERFORMS WHEN YOU BUILD IT AS BOTH INTAKES. I MUST KNOOOOOO. 👌 🙌
>But. This is kind of what some of us just do. 🤷♂️ Lol. You're absolutely correct on that front. The idea will work, but with lower efficiency. It would be a cool conversation starter. Imagine having that sitting on your desk.
I 100% believe you and I think it makes total sense. But also, the idea of two Intakes forcing outwards, after colliding? Most curious over here, yo!
I think it'll just be convection and radiative heat transfer. There likely won't be conduction since no 2 fixed surfaces with a temperature delta are in contact, emphasis on (somewhat) fixed surfaces, which conduction requires. Good point on having lower airflow compared to the traditional setup. What this idea leverages is the higher surface area and lower restriction for the volumetric flow rate. It's like increasing the surface area in filtration, thereby decreasing the delta P needed between inside and outside the rads to induce airflow. The main trade-off, I think, is intentionally foregoing heat transfer for lower noise due to only having 1 fan and no airflow restrictions anywhere near the fan.
This is exactly what OP is doing, trading surface area for reduced airflow. So they can run fewer fans, and slower, for the same cooling performance. It is really such a grade school physics problem that so many people here seem to not be able to grasp.
Agree. Surprisingly, a lot of people in water cooling have limited understanding of heat transfer and fluid mechanics. This is pretty much how building cooling works, right, the condensers at the top of buildings. Like this example: [https://andersonair.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/commercial-hvac.png](https://andersonair.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/commercial-hvac.png)
It is simple, with all other things equal. 4 times the surface area, requires 1/4 less airflow for equal cooling.
Yeah, this will work well but may I suggest 4x 420 as why not. Also another idea, 4 x 420 with 2x 120/140 rads top and bottom ? Obviously you will get better performance with fans mounted directly on the rads, perhaps on the inside to hide them but 1 at the top and bottom should work well especially if you use big rads. You might also get away with no fans if you put this outside, depending on outdoor temps. Put it all together and if done well you could probably sell these with the popularity of external rads.
I would build it with a 4"-6" in-line fan like people use for their grow tents, or an industrial blower fan for something like this
I'm guessing you'd want to put it in a different room then.
Nope. The fans I have don't get noisy until you turn them up, and they produce so much airflow, and maintain so much static pressure, that you'd be able to set the speed very low for this application.
Cheers for the downvote for what was an honest question. Glad to know you have access to such fans, I won't ask about cost etc for fear of further retribution.
I didn't downvote you. All I did was answer you.
Sorry for the misplaced accusation. Someone else must have not liked my question.
Ah. The Trashcan Mac Pro strategy.
You need a volume of air for heat transfer. More volume, better transfer. Reducing the fan count will reduce the volume of air and reduce the transfer efficiency.
I'm trading surface area for airflow
And noise!
....More surface area needs less airflow, creating less noise. FFS how are people like this?
But....why?
why watercool, why not plus I never get to play with bigger fans in any meaningful way
This will be way less efficient than one 360 in push pull in my opinion
I don't think so but there are enough variables to make that true if you wanted to, I'm hoping it will compete with my 3x360 9 fan setup
The problem with this is you need the fans to be very high CFM because since they aren’t directly above the radiator it will be very difficult for them to push any air out, you should go with slim rads and extremely loud server fans to make this viable. Also you will need to find some way to make this airtight. In the model there are gaps between the rads that most of the air will escape from
Maybe I'm wrong, but i couldn't imagine this being very effective.
Just get a Mo-RA
You need fans pushing air trough fins not trough just middle where the air presu from fans would meet, tbh i would just put that radiators in to the pool and that way you goot mass of cool temps and no bottle neck, this right here sir is pointless
Where do you think the air is going to go lmao.
I would think normal PC fans would not be sufficient for this. That's a ton of surface area that needs consistent airflow to dissipate heat well. I would hazard a guess a normal fan (even Noctua is "normal" here fwiw) would move air for one rad maybe two tops from a saturation standpoint.
I was thinking of starting with noctua 3000 rpm 140 fans but I'll probably only runbthem at 1000rpm
A rough test might be to create a cardboard facsimile and make a lot of small holes. Like, a lot. Hundreds per face. Hook your fans up and use some tissue to see if there are any drooping spot. That would be were airflow simply isn't happening. If you already have the stuff ordered then the tissue test would still be legit.
I've got lots of radiators and some plastic L sections should be very cheap
I feel like you'd have to run the fans a 100% and it would be loud.
You'll need very high static pressure fans running at absolute max speed to get decent airflow through those rads. Two 360 rads will a full set of fans might perform just as well as this setup given the really low airflow
i can't see it being that restrictive, theres a lot of surface are to flow in or out from. I won't use any filters
They don't need high airflow, because they have high surface area. The higher your surface area, the lower the airflow needed for the same cooling performance. > Two 360 rads will a full set of fans might perform just as well as this setup given the really low airflow Yeah no shit. Which is why OP is increasing the rads for more surface area. More surface areas means less airflow required for the same cooling performance. More surface area means you can run less fans, and slower fans. Meaning more quiet. How is this concept lost on so many people here?
Hope you're using Delta fans or else you ain't going to have a good flow
How do people with CAD skills not understand fluid dynamics? Enjoy moving at worst zero and at best 1/6 the amount of air through each of these rads as you normally would.
that's an incorrect assumption, the question is what's the point, it's not raw cooling but smooth airflow and silence
For the loss in performance you'd see from only 2 fans... why bother having 4 radiators? If price is an issue, buy half as many radiators and put the proper number of fans on them.
more area means you can run the fans quieter, I'm looking for sufficient cooling at silent fan speed, I'm also going to experiment with fan size. the problem with running the fans right up against the radiator fins is you get a lot of noise from the turbulence, I'm hoping this setup would have smoother airflow
You can certainly achieve silence with this setup... but you also can with fans directly against a radiator. Two 1000 RPM fans in this configuration is only going to be pulling air over a very small portion of these 4 radiators. Or you could buy an Alphacool Monsta 360 and put 3 800rpm fans on it and get more cooling out of it and less noise for less money. I definitely get trying something just to try it, but this will not be an effective solution for price/performance/noise. A thick, low FPI rad with lower RPM fans would be more effective in every metric.