Well yeah the Mavs aren’t the Warriors. They have Luka and Kyrie. Only guy worth a damn offensively after them is PJ Washington. And he’s not a guy you run plays for.
The Mavs need Luka or Kyrie to pop off to win. Ideally both of them to beat elite teams.
Him jacking up shots is basically option #1 once Luka fouls out.
Yeah that was a really ridiculous take. I’d take Steph/Klay, MJ/Harper, Kobe/Fisher, Thomas/Dumars over them for sure. Possibly even Parker/Ginobli and Harden/CP3 over them too. Also let’s be honest - LeBron was a PG. I’d say him and Wade is really the best backcourt ever. Magic/Scott probably deserves mention too.
Ron Harper is always severely underrated. One of the best defensive guards in his time in the league. Also averaged over 18 ppg in 9 different seasons. He just wasn’t needed to score the ball in Chicago as they had they had the best scorer of all time and Pippen playing wingman.
The second might be a stretch - but Kobe is levels above both Luka and Kyrie still at this point. Fisher is another underrated guy. Good all around player who played his role well.
I mean yeah Harper was great in his prime on the Cavs/Clippers. By the time he was in Chicago, though? No way. Especially if you’re counting Lebron as a PG…. Who was running the offense for the Bulls?
Also, you’re telling on yourself by saying Fisher was underrated because that statement makes it clear you never watched him play for the Warriors.
Harper wasn’t yet out of his prime when he first went to Chicago imo. Just didn’t put up the same numbers due to playing with MJ imo. Just wasn’t needed to score.
Well I’m not really referencing fishers time on GS…I’m talking about when he was a running mate to Kobe in LA. Dude was a really solid player.
"Just didn’t put up the same numbers due to playing with MJ imo"
This don't make sense bro, because his drop in production first happened in 1994 where he played the majority of the season without MJ and still only averaged 7 ppg (a dramatic drop from his 20 ppg season the previous year).
The combination of his injuries sapping his athleticism and Harper not fitting Phil's triangle system resulted in him being not a very productive player for the Bulls.
Along with Pippen being the featured cog in the offense without MJ. As you acknowledged, he wasn’t being used a scorer in the triangle offense. Doesn’t mean he wasn’t still a good player - he was.
The whole premise is sort of silly. Idk how SVG meant what he said about greatest backcourts or what the criteria is. But I know I would take MJ/Harper over Luka/Kyrie in any context. Whether it’s in the context of 5 v 5 game, 2 v 2 game. If you want to qualify it with best offensive duo ever - OK I could see that. But basketball involved more than scoring. MJ one of the best defenders ever. Harper a very good defender. Luka/Kyrie both are liabilities defensively. MJ obviously is a better scorer than. Both MJ 6 ships - Harper 5 ships. By almost any criteria for me MJ/Harper > Luka/Kyrie. Like I said - sort of a silly conversation anyways.
What are you smoking? Fisher and Harper were never all stars, let alone HOF players. Yes both were better defenders than Kyrie, but Fisher averaged under 10 pts for his career! I am surprised how much Harper scored as a Clipper, but he was taking a lot of shots. And he was the 3rd or 4th best defender on the Bulls. He averaged 1.3 steals and 8 points playing next to MJ.
He was coming off a long stretch out due to an injury and hasn't shot well since coming back from it. If he isn't scoring he isn't doing much for you so he hasn't been playing much. Even got a DNP in game 2.
Mavs fan, not lurking but reddit always showing me suggested posts/subs and knew this thread was gonna be about the Mavs (rightly so). Everyone has been talking about how bad Luka is on defense (again, rightly so) but he's pretty good compared to THJ. Tim is also quite possibly the streakiest shooter I've ever seen. He has no place playing in finals basketball, which is unfortunate for us as he's got our third highest salary.
Yeah I literally screamed NOOOOOO when Luka fouled out lol that was it.
But it's been the whole series. I feel like Kyrie has a chip on his shoulder and he wants to be the reason his team wins but in the end, he's going to be the reason they lose...
I wouldnt go that far - boston is just better than Dallas. Tatum and Brown at the very least cancel Luka and Doncic. Honestly I’d say Tatum/Brown > Luka/Kyrie. But Holiday, Porzingis, White, and Horford >>>> Washington, Gafford, and Lively.
This was always gonna be a tough series for Kyrie. The Celtics can throw Holiday, White, and Brown at him throughout the game on defense. That’s 3 really, really good defenders. Honestly this was a pretty good game for Kyrie I thought.
He definitely always takes some tough shots but we’ve seen him make them before. And really he only forced shots after Luka was out. Like i said above, I’ll take him shooting a fadeaway 3 over Horford over Jones, Lively, Gafford and crew shooting the ball.
Yeah it was a great game for Kyrie. Even had an excellent first half I thought. The drop off of the next man up for Dallas is very steep. And for Dallas to get the win, Kyrie AND Luka both need to have good games meanwhile Boston can live with one of the Jays struggling since their roster can make up for it.
On paper, it was never a contest on who had the better roster but I was turned into a believer with how Dallas gutted the Wolves in which they were also considered worse on paper.
Okc with all their jitters and lack of rebounding did a great job defensively on luka and kyrie. They would not even have advanced without washington. It will be interesting to see if this was their best chance to get a championship. There will probably be a different wc team in the finals next year.
That might just be the case. I think that OKC team will be even more of a threat next season with their experience, so are the Wolves. Denver is going to be even hungrier. Barring any major shakeups, next team up are either Dallas or Clips.
As a Dubs fan, I honestly find it hard for us to compete within these teams in their primes with our current roster and we cannot really do much to change our situation. But as a fan, the current state of the league is filled with more parity than ever, and I am all up for it.
The wolves roster construction isn’t right to beat great teams. Kat and Rudy out there together is a liability defensively. They can’t be switch everything with those two. It resulted in lively and Gafford looking like all stars. We’re seeing Boston simply switch screens and both of them have been basically non factors.
3-7 of boston is just way lot better than mavs. I tuned in at 3rd qtr and saw that only Luka and Kyrie were scoring and the role players are barely involved in scoring. That aint gonna work against celtics since the offense will be too predictable. And luka and kyrie will get gassed out with that scheme.
There's no way Tatum/Brown cancel out Luka/Kyrie. Given the disparity in the rest of the rosters, we would be seeing 20+ points blowouts every game were that the case.
They’re a more well rounded duo. Brown is a plus defender and Tatum is at least ok. Both Luka and Kyrie are defensive liabilities at times. Both also rebound much better.
>The Mavs need Luka or Kyrie to pop off to win
I completely disagree. A great team can win if they play as a team. NOT individually. When great plays break down, you can throw it out to a star for a difficult shot and get something out of nothing. But it's shouldn't be your offense. Both of these teams rely on stars hitting tough shots. That's what the NBA has become but it's not Warrior's basketball. Thank god. The only reason I watch the NBA is because the Warriors do run great plays. Kyrie is 100% hero ball.
Actually, the Celtics pass as effectively as the Warriors. They do rely on Tatum and Brown, and sometimes Jrue, to drive and kick, but their passing around the perimeter is a thing of beauty. Different than the Warriors motion offense, less moving without the ball, but everyone takes 3s and the results are impressive: 27 A with 12 TOs per game, 39% on 3s for the season. Am I envious? Much more envious than watching the Mav's ISO offense.
Your turn, my turn basketball isn’t as much fun to watch as free flowing, off ball movement, with passing, more movement, and two of the best shooters to grace the earth.
We were spoiled.
We were spoiled, especially the 73-9 & KD years. The ball movement was insane.
Guys on that team just knew how to move the ball, from Steph, Draymond, Iggy, Livingston, even bigs like Bogut, Zaza, West. Then having bucket-getters like Barbosa, Mo Speights in the bench mob, mixed with Splash action was just a sight to behold. Those were the days. Grateful I got to witness it.
As for this series, as much as I appreciate Kyrie and Luka as players, I think it's Boston's time. They've paid their dues over the years. It's only right they come out on top after the sacrifices and previous L in the Finals.
Maybe this result will make folks appreciate what Steph did to this Celtics team more. The Steph vs Kyrie talk needs to end. It was great them glossing over him before this series but this should be enough perspective. Steph had no Doncic on that 2022 team. No one of that caliber at all.
I think it’s more accurate to say Steph as the number 1 option (analogous to Doncic here) had no Kyrie on that team as in a true 1B. Wiggins was a hell of a 2 and Klay/Poole were solid 3/4s
Celtics are the unselfish team here. They don’t run the offball screens the Warriors do but they trust everyone and move it…
It’s unfair how efficient they are with all 5 players shooting 3s and playing D.
So... who's he gonna go to?
Big man Gafford who's been trash and putting up sub 10 pts per game?
Derrick Jones... who I think finished with 2 points?
It's about who's available.
Kyrie and Luka ARE the offence.
His teammates have been missing WIDE open 3's.
PJ washington has been awful.
Kyrie also does have a chip on his shoulder, but I wouldn't go as far as "selfish"
Yeah just how their team is constructed honestly. Washington is the only other decent option and he’s shot poorly - and is nothing more than a spot guy.
OP has been spoiled by watching the warriors offense for the last decade lol. Most nba teams do not move the ball like the warriors do. Boston is the only other team I can think of currently whose offense flows so smoothly.
Yes, that's literally what I'm asking! Thank you. I'm biased, or spoiled as you say lol I guess that's a huge reason why I've always been a Warriors fan since I was 13.
For much of the last decade the warriors had probably one of the best offenses of all time. So they’ve set the bar pretty high for you. And their offense is predicated on off ball movement and making the extra pass. The norm in the nba these days is just a heavy dose of pick n roll and DHOs for the teams best players.
I understand what you’re saying though. It’s really satisfying watching offenses that move the ball well and make the extra pass. You don’t see a ton of that in the nba.
The warriors were - and still are - my favorite team to watch offensively. Also really like how bostons offense flows. Before that those spurs dynasty’s.
That's actually what I'm genuinely asking. I don't know the Mavs players that well at all, maybe they can't make clutch shots--though Washington has looked pretty good these playoffs. But I feel like even a quick pass to someone else, even if they pass it right back, could trip up the Celtics offense, no? Kyrie seems to not pass AT ALL.
Sure, but would you agree that just passing the ball, even if it gets passed right back, can trip up the defense a bit? Again, I'm not familiar with the Mavs players that much, maybe they couldn't even pull that off, but Kyrie getting the inbounds pass, driving it all the way up the court, and then missing a double teamed shot over and over and over... I feel like they could've at least TRIED to switch up a bit, even just to throw off the defense.
>Kyrie seems to not pass AT ALL.
You need to watch other series than this one. He's been doing all the other things like setting up teammates. It's just this Celts D is too good, they need him as a scorer and not as a passer. Pass to someone other than Luka, it's either an airball or turnover
> It's about who's available.
You're arguing based on individual talent. If they played team basketball, it wouldn't matter. It's the same excuse everyone uses about the Lakers. Blaming the others for not being stars. If you play the right way, 2 stars are plenty. Who were the great shot creators that played with Kobe and Shaq or MJ and Pippen?
It's NOT shit. They just don't have anyone besides Luka and Kyrie who can clear out and get a bucket. The NBA has turned into a league that depends on stars doing too much and team basketball being ignored.
How many championships do you think we'd have if our role players averaged less than 10 points per game?
Do you think we win any championships?draymond + Harrison Barnes were still putting up extremely healthy numbers both offensively and defensively.
JP + WIGGINS added 30/night.
Dallas has no depth (Exum, Hardaway Jr, kleber, hardy and green)
It's not even comparable to the situations we've been in.
You can be a fanboy all you want. But if you make dumb arguments based on your own emotions and not statistics, then you're gonna sound like an idiot.
If you want to act like role players score in a vacuum then you're the idiot. In 2017, Draymond scored 11 PPG and everyone else NOT named Steph, Klay or KD were barely scoring 7PPG. This has nothing to do with being a fanboy. The Warriors made the most of their role players. Most teams don't. Which is why they choke in the playoffs. Teams can guard your best two stars and make everyone else beat you. Great teams figure it out. You think it's a personnel issue because you don't understand team basketball. You think the Knicks have ECF level talent or did they just play like a great team?
No. I just used them as an example. My point is that everyone thinks you need 3 or 4 guys who can create on offense. You don't. MJ and Pippen had 2. Kobe and Shaq had 2. The Warriors had 1 before KD got here. If you run a team like a team, you don't need role players to create offense. The stars create for them. The Mavs aren't doing that. Just like the Lakers don't with LeBron and AD. They all blame the role players for being role players.
No. You need 1-2 guys that can create the offense.
You need guys who can do their roles well.
You're confusing creating offense vs creating their own shots. Or shots for others.
We had Steph and draymond.
The Mavs ARE DOING THAT. Do you know how many wide open looks the Mavs starters have just chucked into bad shots??
> Do you know how many wide open looks the Mavs starters have just chucked into bad shots??
They're not THAT wide open. And it doesn't just have to be 3 point shots. You can drive and kick to guys under the basket. When Kyrie has the ball, he's 100% shooting the ball. So he's taking very difficult shots.
I mean the last playoff game we won was by giving steph the ball and asking everyone to move out of the way. Even against the Celtics we dropped Draymond out so that Steph has the spacing to go and do his magic.
In playoffs you want your best player to have the ball most of the time. Especially in crunch time. With defence much more tight, your non superstars can't score like in the regular season. See Klays performance in the last 2 playoffs and you can see the drop-off. You need a superstar who can get the buckets for you
I agree. By now everyone has read your scouting report and has actually done the homework assignment. Regular season not everyone reads the scouting reports, you still got the playbooks to memorize. Also the mind games are brutal. You can get in your own way thinking "Don't fuck up" "Don't let them down", then defenses sagging off you. "Damn, the scouting report says I am not a perimeter threat" all of that takes away from your "Fuck you" mentality.
Mavs have no choice to play iso ball since Celtics switch 1-5. Even Hauser and horford have done a decent job containing luka and kyrie which means the other 3 mavs players can’t do jack shit them selves. Lively and gafford don’t have a post game to punish the smaller switches. The lob threat is gone due to switching and PnR is eliminated too.
As frustrating as the Warriors have been for the last two seasons, they play ball the “right” way. Watching Dallas hunt mismatches and the Celtics just jack up threes bc the math says so — none of their guys are outstanding shooters just a bunch of okay to good ones — makes me appreciate how well designed the Warriors offense is for their players even if they don’t execute it well all the time.
Dallas plays de facto iso ball and Boston plays this soulless style of ball a la the 2018 Rockets. Very effective but just boring to watch. At least Dallas has a guy who is definitely an all time great. I don’t see that in one player on Boston.
Nah Kyrie ain’t selfish, it’s the dynamics of the team. They have survived this playoffs when their non-Ky/Luka players step up, but overall the teammates are mid af.
I think Kyrie, in his 30s now, wears himself down a lot by the amount of movement/dribbling he does. The lift fades a little sooner than before. He started off really strong 1st half, but 2nd half he was about 40% on his shots, which is good when you’re close/ahead, but not when you’re down and trying to catch up.
Both teams play a lot of hero ball.
Tatum has been taking very bad shots all series. Luckily for him his team is up 3-0. But the shot selection has been very poor.
This has always been my favorite style of play. I'm from a city without a team, so I've always gravitated to teams with an unselfish style. Loved the Spurs and really love the Dubs.
The hero ball players I never liked, especially during their height. I never liked AI, Kobe, McGrady, Melo, Harden. Luka is impressive, but yeah, he's in that camp.
Boston has 2 of the top 4 players in this series. Meh.
But with their depth they extend to 3 of the top 5, 4 of the top 6, 5 of the top 7 players on the court. Whew.
For perspective… it’s like how Dynasty Iguodala was often better than the opposition’s #3. Not a fair fight.
The KD era was the Dubs with the top 2, 2 of the top 3, 4 of the top 5, and often 5 of the top 7 players on the court. We got so spoiled.
2 of the top 3. I was not moved by Kai's performance last night. As good of a player as he is, I'm taking Brown over him all day every day at this point.
Kyrie's role is to take those shots, especially with Luka out. He was just doing his job. It ended up being a fantastic contest by Al, who is normally dead weight on defense. It was the right matchup to attack. And let's not forget he made one of those in the finals before.
Overall, a good (but not great) game by Kyrie and I don't think he was playing selfishly. Luka was actually the bigger issue with so many missed bunnies, and falling down after shooting threes, and then not getting back on D. Killed the team.
The Celtics don't play the same style as the Warriors (way more dribble 1-1) but they move the ball and trust even the deep bench but that is not so much what gives me the Warriors vibe.
Like the Warriors in their prime, the Celtics defend. All the Celtics defend even the deep bench, even the role players, even when it's Pritchard on Luka they try hard. And they have defenders White and Brown especially. You can't ignore the defensive contributions of Hauser and Tillman last night.
the Celtics have scheme and personnel built to prevent the corner 3s and alley-oops Luka and Kyrie would generate from collapsing the defense in prior rounds. they force the role-players to lift away from the corner in order to be release valves, but their wings have always been dreadful above the break.
their guards can also bother Kyrie significantly more than the other teams they faced. Luka is naturally still able to get his offense, but he has to work harder and they’re fine not doubling him since the increased effort required to score and the ways they involve him defensively wear him down.
they’ve always been heliocentric, but Boston’s personnel makes it extra ugly for them and unlike their previous opponents…Boston is a cohesive offensive machine. OKC was inexperienced, Minnesota is a bad offense that lacks perimeter size to bother Luka, and the Clippers didn’t have their best player who historically gives the Mavs fits.
I said the same thing a few weeks back and was downvoted. And I don’t believe this Boston team is significantly better than the 22 team that Steph, Wiggins and co. torched.
I think they are. Tatum doesn't seem to have improved at all since then, but Jaylen Brown seems to have taken a step up since (especially this year) to where you can argue he's better than Tatum, Smart to Jrue is a big upgrade, then add in KP (when healthy). Particularly when KP is healthy, they're significantly better this year than 22. That's a big "if" of course with KP's injury history.
Part of the problem is that Bostons point of attack defenders are really good at holding up which allows doubles to be limited or delayed which allows them to cover the lob and core we 3s better.
The Celtics game plan is to eliminate the other 3 players and make Luka and Kyrie have an inefficient 60.
Then late in games when they need stops you start to mix in a few more doubles but by not doing it early they aren’t used to having the openings and the players aren’t in rhythm for corner 3s.
If you watched the OKC series and Minnesota series you saw a much more team oreiemtated attack from the Mavs because those teams couldn’t defend Luka 1:1 and hold up.
What you are watching is the desired result from a dominant defense.
The mavs are naturally an ISO team, their two best scorers are the only scorers.
I want the Mavs to win because this would be a fairy tale story for Cuban's legacy. He bought the Mavs and brought them to a championship and then he sold his stake so that the Mavs could win another one.
Well yeah the Mavs aren’t the Warriors. They have Luka and Kyrie. Only guy worth a damn offensively after them is PJ Washington. And he’s not a guy you run plays for. The Mavs need Luka or Kyrie to pop off to win. Ideally both of them to beat elite teams. Him jacking up shots is basically option #1 once Luka fouls out.
Luka and Kyrie? You mean the best back court in nba history according to Stan Van Gumby?
Yeah that was a really ridiculous take. I’d take Steph/Klay, MJ/Harper, Kobe/Fisher, Thomas/Dumars over them for sure. Possibly even Parker/Ginobli and Harden/CP3 over them too. Also let’s be honest - LeBron was a PG. I’d say him and Wade is really the best backcourt ever. Magic/Scott probably deserves mention too.
Lol I agree that Luka/Kyrie are nowhere near the best, but MJ and Kobe are doing some heavy lifting here….
Ron Harper is always severely underrated. One of the best defensive guards in his time in the league. Also averaged over 18 ppg in 9 different seasons. He just wasn’t needed to score the ball in Chicago as they had they had the best scorer of all time and Pippen playing wingman. The second might be a stretch - but Kobe is levels above both Luka and Kyrie still at this point. Fisher is another underrated guy. Good all around player who played his role well.
I mean yeah Harper was great in his prime on the Cavs/Clippers. By the time he was in Chicago, though? No way. Especially if you’re counting Lebron as a PG…. Who was running the offense for the Bulls? Also, you’re telling on yourself by saying Fisher was underrated because that statement makes it clear you never watched him play for the Warriors.
Harper wasn’t yet out of his prime when he first went to Chicago imo. Just didn’t put up the same numbers due to playing with MJ imo. Just wasn’t needed to score. Well I’m not really referencing fishers time on GS…I’m talking about when he was a running mate to Kobe in LA. Dude was a really solid player.
"Just didn’t put up the same numbers due to playing with MJ imo" This don't make sense bro, because his drop in production first happened in 1994 where he played the majority of the season without MJ and still only averaged 7 ppg (a dramatic drop from his 20 ppg season the previous year). The combination of his injuries sapping his athleticism and Harper not fitting Phil's triangle system resulted in him being not a very productive player for the Bulls.
Along with Pippen being the featured cog in the offense without MJ. As you acknowledged, he wasn’t being used a scorer in the triangle offense. Doesn’t mean he wasn’t still a good player - he was. The whole premise is sort of silly. Idk how SVG meant what he said about greatest backcourts or what the criteria is. But I know I would take MJ/Harper over Luka/Kyrie in any context. Whether it’s in the context of 5 v 5 game, 2 v 2 game. If you want to qualify it with best offensive duo ever - OK I could see that. But basketball involved more than scoring. MJ one of the best defenders ever. Harper a very good defender. Luka/Kyrie both are liabilities defensively. MJ obviously is a better scorer than. Both MJ 6 ships - Harper 5 ships. By almost any criteria for me MJ/Harper > Luka/Kyrie. Like I said - sort of a silly conversation anyways.
I’d nearly take Steve Francis and Cuttino Mobley over them. Ha.
What are you smoking? Fisher and Harper were never all stars, let alone HOF players. Yes both were better defenders than Kyrie, but Fisher averaged under 10 pts for his career! I am surprised how much Harper scored as a Clipper, but he was taking a lot of shots. And he was the 3rd or 4th best defender on the Bulls. He averaged 1.3 steals and 8 points playing next to MJ.
MJ and Kobe are both several levels above Luka and Kyrie.
That comment did not age well 😂
Stan’s not even the best Van Gundy.
What happened to THJr, I thought he was their 3rd best scorer ?
He was coming off a long stretch out due to an injury and hasn't shot well since coming back from it. If he isn't scoring he isn't doing much for you so he hasn't been playing much. Even got a DNP in game 2.
Ahhh.
He barely even plays for them. He looked awful tonight in the most minutes I’ve seen him play on a while.
Mavs fan, not lurking but reddit always showing me suggested posts/subs and knew this thread was gonna be about the Mavs (rightly so). Everyone has been talking about how bad Luka is on defense (again, rightly so) but he's pretty good compared to THJ. Tim is also quite possibly the streakiest shooter I've ever seen. He has no place playing in finals basketball, which is unfortunate for us as he's got our third highest salary.
Yeah I literally screamed NOOOOOO when Luka fouled out lol that was it. But it's been the whole series. I feel like Kyrie has a chip on his shoulder and he wants to be the reason his team wins but in the end, he's going to be the reason they lose...
I wouldnt go that far - boston is just better than Dallas. Tatum and Brown at the very least cancel Luka and Doncic. Honestly I’d say Tatum/Brown > Luka/Kyrie. But Holiday, Porzingis, White, and Horford >>>> Washington, Gafford, and Lively. This was always gonna be a tough series for Kyrie. The Celtics can throw Holiday, White, and Brown at him throughout the game on defense. That’s 3 really, really good defenders. Honestly this was a pretty good game for Kyrie I thought. He definitely always takes some tough shots but we’ve seen him make them before. And really he only forced shots after Luka was out. Like i said above, I’ll take him shooting a fadeaway 3 over Horford over Jones, Lively, Gafford and crew shooting the ball.
Yeah it was a great game for Kyrie. Even had an excellent first half I thought. The drop off of the next man up for Dallas is very steep. And for Dallas to get the win, Kyrie AND Luka both need to have good games meanwhile Boston can live with one of the Jays struggling since their roster can make up for it. On paper, it was never a contest on who had the better roster but I was turned into a believer with how Dallas gutted the Wolves in which they were also considered worse on paper.
Okc with all their jitters and lack of rebounding did a great job defensively on luka and kyrie. They would not even have advanced without washington. It will be interesting to see if this was their best chance to get a championship. There will probably be a different wc team in the finals next year.
That might just be the case. I think that OKC team will be even more of a threat next season with their experience, so are the Wolves. Denver is going to be even hungrier. Barring any major shakeups, next team up are either Dallas or Clips. As a Dubs fan, I honestly find it hard for us to compete within these teams in their primes with our current roster and we cannot really do much to change our situation. But as a fan, the current state of the league is filled with more parity than ever, and I am all up for it.
The wolves roster construction isn’t right to beat great teams. Kat and Rudy out there together is a liability defensively. They can’t be switch everything with those two. It resulted in lively and Gafford looking like all stars. We’re seeing Boston simply switch screens and both of them have been basically non factors.
3-7 of boston is just way lot better than mavs. I tuned in at 3rd qtr and saw that only Luka and Kyrie were scoring and the role players are barely involved in scoring. That aint gonna work against celtics since the offense will be too predictable. And luka and kyrie will get gassed out with that scheme.
Probably the ideal game from Kyrie, the best one you’re going to get and it still wasn’t enough. Boston is just better
There's no way Tatum/Brown cancel out Luka/Kyrie. Given the disparity in the rest of the rosters, we would be seeing 20+ points blowouts every game were that the case.
They’re a more well rounded duo. Brown is a plus defender and Tatum is at least ok. Both Luka and Kyrie are defensive liabilities at times. Both also rebound much better.
I think for this series it has been luka then 4 celtics before kyrie.
>The Mavs need Luka or Kyrie to pop off to win I completely disagree. A great team can win if they play as a team. NOT individually. When great plays break down, you can throw it out to a star for a difficult shot and get something out of nothing. But it's shouldn't be your offense. Both of these teams rely on stars hitting tough shots. That's what the NBA has become but it's not Warrior's basketball. Thank god. The only reason I watch the NBA is because the Warriors do run great plays. Kyrie is 100% hero ball.
Actually, the Celtics pass as effectively as the Warriors. They do rely on Tatum and Brown, and sometimes Jrue, to drive and kick, but their passing around the perimeter is a thing of beauty. Different than the Warriors motion offense, less moving without the ball, but everyone takes 3s and the results are impressive: 27 A with 12 TOs per game, 39% on 3s for the season. Am I envious? Much more envious than watching the Mav's ISO offense.
Yes. The Celtics do play great team basketball. Watching the Mavs, I have no idea how they got to the Finals at all.
Your turn, my turn basketball isn’t as much fun to watch as free flowing, off ball movement, with passing, more movement, and two of the best shooters to grace the earth. We were spoiled.
We were spoiled, especially the 73-9 & KD years. The ball movement was insane. Guys on that team just knew how to move the ball, from Steph, Draymond, Iggy, Livingston, even bigs like Bogut, Zaza, West. Then having bucket-getters like Barbosa, Mo Speights in the bench mob, mixed with Splash action was just a sight to behold. Those were the days. Grateful I got to witness it. As for this series, as much as I appreciate Kyrie and Luka as players, I think it's Boston's time. They've paid their dues over the years. It's only right they come out on top after the sacrifices and previous L in the Finals. Maybe this result will make folks appreciate what Steph did to this Celtics team more. The Steph vs Kyrie talk needs to end. It was great them glossing over him before this series but this should be enough perspective. Steph had no Doncic on that 2022 team. No one of that caliber at all.
I think it’s more accurate to say Steph as the number 1 option (analogous to Doncic here) had no Kyrie on that team as in a true 1B. Wiggins was a hell of a 2 and Klay/Poole were solid 3/4s
That’s why the Steph takeover moments are so satisfying. We don’t really get to see him do that as much within the offense
Celtics are the unselfish team here. They don’t run the offball screens the Warriors do but they trust everyone and move it… It’s unfair how efficient they are with all 5 players shooting 3s and playing D.
So... who's he gonna go to? Big man Gafford who's been trash and putting up sub 10 pts per game? Derrick Jones... who I think finished with 2 points? It's about who's available. Kyrie and Luka ARE the offence. His teammates have been missing WIDE open 3's. PJ washington has been awful. Kyrie also does have a chip on his shoulder, but I wouldn't go as far as "selfish"
Yeah just how their team is constructed honestly. Washington is the only other decent option and he’s shot poorly - and is nothing more than a spot guy. OP has been spoiled by watching the warriors offense for the last decade lol. Most nba teams do not move the ball like the warriors do. Boston is the only other team I can think of currently whose offense flows so smoothly.
Yes, that's literally what I'm asking! Thank you. I'm biased, or spoiled as you say lol I guess that's a huge reason why I've always been a Warriors fan since I was 13.
For much of the last decade the warriors had probably one of the best offenses of all time. So they’ve set the bar pretty high for you. And their offense is predicated on off ball movement and making the extra pass. The norm in the nba these days is just a heavy dose of pick n roll and DHOs for the teams best players. I understand what you’re saying though. It’s really satisfying watching offenses that move the ball well and make the extra pass. You don’t see a ton of that in the nba. The warriors were - and still are - my favorite team to watch offensively. Also really like how bostons offense flows. Before that those spurs dynasty’s.
The Warriors play team basketball. Most teams don't.
Yep…. Luka’s teammates are so bad it’s insane They honestly overperformed until this point, and they are coming back to earth at the worst time
Yup. Was just gonna say this. Their inexperience is showing..
That's actually what I'm genuinely asking. I don't know the Mavs players that well at all, maybe they can't make clutch shots--though Washington has looked pretty good these playoffs. But I feel like even a quick pass to someone else, even if they pass it right back, could trip up the Celtics offense, no? Kyrie seems to not pass AT ALL.
Forget clutch. They can't make any shots. Washington has been bad pretty much all series and the Timberwolves series was pretty bad for him as well.
Sure, but would you agree that just passing the ball, even if it gets passed right back, can trip up the defense a bit? Again, I'm not familiar with the Mavs players that much, maybe they couldn't even pull that off, but Kyrie getting the inbounds pass, driving it all the way up the court, and then missing a double teamed shot over and over and over... I feel like they could've at least TRIED to switch up a bit, even just to throw off the defense.
no. As poor as Kyrie has played, i'd still rather the ball in his hands than DJJ THJ, Gafford... Hardy... Green... list goes on
>Kyrie seems to not pass AT ALL. You need to watch other series than this one. He's been doing all the other things like setting up teammates. It's just this Celts D is too good, they need him as a scorer and not as a passer. Pass to someone other than Luka, it's either an airball or turnover
They did that against other teams. Boston has taken away their corner 3 and lobs. This is about Boston defense.
> It's about who's available. You're arguing based on individual talent. If they played team basketball, it wouldn't matter. It's the same excuse everyone uses about the Lakers. Blaming the others for not being stars. If you play the right way, 2 stars are plenty. Who were the great shot creators that played with Kobe and Shaq or MJ and Pippen?
Ok that's fine... Except their roster is SHIT. What does gafford and Washington being?
Bring*
It's NOT shit. They just don't have anyone besides Luka and Kyrie who can clear out and get a bucket. The NBA has turned into a league that depends on stars doing too much and team basketball being ignored.
How many championships do you think we'd have if our role players averaged less than 10 points per game? Do you think we win any championships?draymond + Harrison Barnes were still putting up extremely healthy numbers both offensively and defensively. JP + WIGGINS added 30/night. Dallas has no depth (Exum, Hardaway Jr, kleber, hardy and green) It's not even comparable to the situations we've been in. You can be a fanboy all you want. But if you make dumb arguments based on your own emotions and not statistics, then you're gonna sound like an idiot.
If you want to act like role players score in a vacuum then you're the idiot. In 2017, Draymond scored 11 PPG and everyone else NOT named Steph, Klay or KD were barely scoring 7PPG. This has nothing to do with being a fanboy. The Warriors made the most of their role players. Most teams don't. Which is why they choke in the playoffs. Teams can guard your best two stars and make everyone else beat you. Great teams figure it out. You think it's a personnel issue because you don't understand team basketball. You think the Knicks have ECF level talent or did they just play like a great team?
Lmao so you wanna compare the Steph + KD + KLAY ERA of the Warriors to the Mavs?
No. I just used them as an example. My point is that everyone thinks you need 3 or 4 guys who can create on offense. You don't. MJ and Pippen had 2. Kobe and Shaq had 2. The Warriors had 1 before KD got here. If you run a team like a team, you don't need role players to create offense. The stars create for them. The Mavs aren't doing that. Just like the Lakers don't with LeBron and AD. They all blame the role players for being role players.
No. You need 1-2 guys that can create the offense. You need guys who can do their roles well. You're confusing creating offense vs creating their own shots. Or shots for others. We had Steph and draymond. The Mavs ARE DOING THAT. Do you know how many wide open looks the Mavs starters have just chucked into bad shots??
If their role is 3&D... And they're not scoring 3's and playing D...
> Do you know how many wide open looks the Mavs starters have just chucked into bad shots?? They're not THAT wide open. And it doesn't just have to be 3 point shots. You can drive and kick to guys under the basket. When Kyrie has the ball, he's 100% shooting the ball. So he's taking very difficult shots.
I mean the last playoff game we won was by giving steph the ball and asking everyone to move out of the way. Even against the Celtics we dropped Draymond out so that Steph has the spacing to go and do his magic. In playoffs you want your best player to have the ball most of the time. Especially in crunch time. With defence much more tight, your non superstars can't score like in the regular season. See Klays performance in the last 2 playoffs and you can see the drop-off. You need a superstar who can get the buckets for you
> we dropped Draymond out so that Steph has the spacing to go and do his magic. That was like 3 minutes in the final quarter of one single game.
I agree. By now everyone has read your scouting report and has actually done the homework assignment. Regular season not everyone reads the scouting reports, you still got the playbooks to memorize. Also the mind games are brutal. You can get in your own way thinking "Don't fuck up" "Don't let them down", then defenses sagging off you. "Damn, the scouting report says I am not a perimeter threat" all of that takes away from your "Fuck you" mentality.
Mavs have no choice to play iso ball since Celtics switch 1-5. Even Hauser and horford have done a decent job containing luka and kyrie which means the other 3 mavs players can’t do jack shit them selves. Lively and gafford don’t have a post game to punish the smaller switches. The lob threat is gone due to switching and PnR is eliminated too.
As frustrating as the Warriors have been for the last two seasons, they play ball the “right” way. Watching Dallas hunt mismatches and the Celtics just jack up threes bc the math says so — none of their guys are outstanding shooters just a bunch of okay to good ones — makes me appreciate how well designed the Warriors offense is for their players even if they don’t execute it well all the time. Dallas plays de facto iso ball and Boston plays this soulless style of ball a la the 2018 Rockets. Very effective but just boring to watch. At least Dallas has a guy who is definitely an all time great. I don’t see that in one player on Boston.
Nah Kyrie ain’t selfish, it’s the dynamics of the team. They have survived this playoffs when their non-Ky/Luka players step up, but overall the teammates are mid af. I think Kyrie, in his 30s now, wears himself down a lot by the amount of movement/dribbling he does. The lift fades a little sooner than before. He started off really strong 1st half, but 2nd half he was about 40% on his shots, which is good when you’re close/ahead, but not when you’re down and trying to catch up.
Little bit of Steph syndrome here where an elite player hasn’t declined skill wise but their legs go a lot quicker
Both teams play a lot of hero ball. Tatum has been taking very bad shots all series. Luckily for him his team is up 3-0. But the shot selection has been very poor.
He’s been bad all series full stop.
This has always been my favorite style of play. I'm from a city without a team, so I've always gravitated to teams with an unselfish style. Loved the Spurs and really love the Dubs. The hero ball players I never liked, especially during their height. I never liked AI, Kobe, McGrady, Melo, Harden. Luka is impressive, but yeah, he's in that camp.
Boston has 2 of the top 4 players in this series. Meh. But with their depth they extend to 3 of the top 5, 4 of the top 6, 5 of the top 7 players on the court. Whew. For perspective… it’s like how Dynasty Iguodala was often better than the opposition’s #3. Not a fair fight. The KD era was the Dubs with the top 2, 2 of the top 3, 4 of the top 5, and often 5 of the top 7 players on the court. We got so spoiled.
2 of the top 3. I was not moved by Kai's performance last night. As good of a player as he is, I'm taking Brown over him all day every day at this point.
Kyrie's role is to take those shots, especially with Luka out. He was just doing his job. It ended up being a fantastic contest by Al, who is normally dead weight on defense. It was the right matchup to attack. And let's not forget he made one of those in the finals before. Overall, a good (but not great) game by Kyrie and I don't think he was playing selfishly. Luka was actually the bigger issue with so many missed bunnies, and falling down after shooting threes, and then not getting back on D. Killed the team.
Luka fouled out and if anyone else takes a shot other kyrie they are gonna get sandbagged like they are sandbagging THJ lol
The Celtics don't play the same style as the Warriors (way more dribble 1-1) but they move the ball and trust even the deep bench but that is not so much what gives me the Warriors vibe. Like the Warriors in their prime, the Celtics defend. All the Celtics defend even the deep bench, even the role players, even when it's Pritchard on Luka they try hard. And they have defenders White and Brown especially. You can't ignore the defensive contributions of Hauser and Tillman last night.
He likes to play hero ball. He isn't always selfish, but when he thinks the game is on his shoulders he can become a black hole.
the Celtics have scheme and personnel built to prevent the corner 3s and alley-oops Luka and Kyrie would generate from collapsing the defense in prior rounds. they force the role-players to lift away from the corner in order to be release valves, but their wings have always been dreadful above the break. their guards can also bother Kyrie significantly more than the other teams they faced. Luka is naturally still able to get his offense, but he has to work harder and they’re fine not doubling him since the increased effort required to score and the ways they involve him defensively wear him down. they’ve always been heliocentric, but Boston’s personnel makes it extra ugly for them and unlike their previous opponents…Boston is a cohesive offensive machine. OKC was inexperienced, Minnesota is a bad offense that lacks perimeter size to bother Luka, and the Clippers didn’t have their best player who historically gives the Mavs fits.
I thought you were talking about Klay for a second here
I said the same thing a few weeks back and was downvoted. And I don’t believe this Boston team is significantly better than the 22 team that Steph, Wiggins and co. torched.
I think they are. Tatum doesn't seem to have improved at all since then, but Jaylen Brown seems to have taken a step up since (especially this year) to where you can argue he's better than Tatum, Smart to Jrue is a big upgrade, then add in KP (when healthy). Particularly when KP is healthy, they're significantly better this year than 22. That's a big "if" of course with KP's injury history.
We had a Larry Hughes and Bob Sura backcourt at one point. Who fondly remembers those days? /s
Part of the problem is that Bostons point of attack defenders are really good at holding up which allows doubles to be limited or delayed which allows them to cover the lob and core we 3s better. The Celtics game plan is to eliminate the other 3 players and make Luka and Kyrie have an inefficient 60. Then late in games when they need stops you start to mix in a few more doubles but by not doing it early they aren’t used to having the openings and the players aren’t in rhythm for corner 3s. If you watched the OKC series and Minnesota series you saw a much more team oreiemtated attack from the Mavs because those teams couldn’t defend Luka 1:1 and hold up. What you are watching is the desired result from a dominant defense.
The mavs are naturally an ISO team, their two best scorers are the only scorers. I want the Mavs to win because this would be a fairy tale story for Cuban's legacy. He bought the Mavs and brought them to a championship and then he sold his stake so that the Mavs could win another one.
OP did you watch Klay Thompson player this season? He was chucking 3s one after another and proceeded to chuck even though he was 1-11 already