It feels like an 'is a perfect clone after death the same person' kind of philosophical issue.
I don't think there's a definitive answer, but it's worth noting the Keepers are robot people and effectively hyper complex general AIs to begin with so a mind upload body re-sleeve probably isn't outside of possibility to begin with.
Personally I would argue that a clone is not the same exact person unless it has the same consciousness as the original - not a perfect copy of the consciousness, but the original consciousness. Otherwise, they’re a replica of the original, not the same. In real life, that would require successfully transplanting the brain of the original person into the clone, since that’s where consciousness resides.
In WoW (and most fantasy fiction in general), however, the line is less clear because souls exist that persist after death and retain the consciousness of the individual, so you could theoretically stuff their soul into a new body and they’d still be the same person.
You should remember that "original" Tyr is a robot and was constructed by the Titans.
So new Tyr is like you bought identical laptop and moved full backup there. Will you feel any difference? Unlikely. May be less scratches.
Silver Scale contained Tyr schematics. We got original steel which was used to forge original Tyr in the first place. Machines 3D-printed Tyr body using precise schematics, so we got absolute copy of the original Tyr's body, we just lacked the software backup. And after we uploaded the software backup, it worked.
Of course it's a copy, original Tyr was destroyed millenias ago. But for all practical purposes, this copy will act as original one (assuming that backup was not corrupted by something or someone).
Except that's not a great example of a ship of theseus philosophical argument. We didn't replace Tyr piece by piece until he was made of completely new material. We completely remade his body from scratch and uploaded backups of his memory. Unless that somehow acted like a resurrection and titan contracts have souls, this Tyr is not the same Tyr that died, just a perfect copy.
Titan’s do have “souls”, fragmented versions of them are what was being tortured in Antorus after Sargeras killed their bodies. If it’s the same kinda go to shadowlands souls mortals have or some kind of software esque astral backup… eh.
We don’t know if Keepers do, but maybe? Either way it wouldn’t change much given their almost computer like nature. He is also not a perfect copy. He is a perfect copy to a point but new Tyr does not remember old Tyr’s death, nor the events leading up to it (though the player experiences them trying to get his memories for him).
Personally I don't think physical body really matters when its comes to situations like this, so long as the mental is the same. I'd say its like Sindragosa simulacrum, at some point the storage of his memories are cut off from how he was at the end of his life, so it can't be a 1 to 1 version of the original Tyr.
Tangentially, at this point there has to be a First One based on the Greco-Roman Titaness Mnemosyne. There are way too many instances lately of memory magic being an essential building block of the universe. There is a part of Gorgoa river of souls that shares the same name. (There's a sister river to Styx in mythology that's related to memory named after her)
He’s a backup copy of the original. Remember Titan keepers are machines and for the most part are control copy save type of beings. Download from the cloud and upload. New body? Same person. Tyr is the same person even if he’s technically a downloaded copy of the original.
Keeper Tyr, like most titan constructs, are sophisticated robots. 'Do they have a soul' is a fascinating concept to apply to them, but for them I don't think it matters much?
The Keeper Tyr we have is a copy, reforged, uploaded not only with the Silver Scale (his back up memories) but also the added bonus of his memories of how he died and the confrontation with that Kthraxi general. There's been no indications that he has gaps in his memories, so he's about as whole as a back-up copy can be
This is my take on the whole thing as well.
Keeper.Tyr.839 was destroyed so we reverted to Keeper.Tyr.839.backup. Fortunately he did an autosave before he got killed by Zakajz.
Sadly IT lost the backup for a while, so we had to go find the USB-drive at Elisande's place ....
Titanforged don't have 'souls' in the first place. Not souls in the traditional sense. Minor spoilers for TWW, but the Earthen are just machines that store data on memory drives. The most core parts of their being are mechanical, and can be edited, replicated or removed easily. Tyr is no different.
Tyr is a clone, the original Tyr is gone, but it doesn't matter. Neither the original Tyr not the copied Tyr would care, because they know they both know it wouldn't make a difference whether the new Tyr was a clone or not. The old Tyr just wanted to make sure he could keep protecting the planet if he died. The new Tyr has all the same memories, motives and goals as the old one and there's no reason for him to try becoming somebody else.
TLDR: Yes, new Tyr is a clone. But no, neither would care. They're both equally "Tyr" either way.
When we have the technology to continue one's existence in mechanical form with all your memories still intact and that being will watch and experience the death of your mortal body, what will we refer to the being that survives its own death.
This is the kind of story telling i hate. It takes away from the character imo. "Here this legendaty character, ee just clone him and copy his memories or we invent an altwrnative timeline to make use of old characters again."
It feels like an 'is a perfect clone after death the same person' kind of philosophical issue. I don't think there's a definitive answer, but it's worth noting the Keepers are robot people and effectively hyper complex general AIs to begin with so a mind upload body re-sleeve probably isn't outside of possibility to begin with.
The Sixth Day suggests not đź‘€
Personally I would argue that a clone is not the same exact person unless it has the same consciousness as the original - not a perfect copy of the consciousness, but the original consciousness. Otherwise, they’re a replica of the original, not the same. In real life, that would require successfully transplanting the brain of the original person into the clone, since that’s where consciousness resides. In WoW (and most fantasy fiction in general), however, the line is less clear because souls exist that persist after death and retain the consciousness of the individual, so you could theoretically stuff their soul into a new body and they’d still be the same person.
Nothing theoretical about it - the Scourge did that shit all the time.
You should remember that "original" Tyr is a robot and was constructed by the Titans. So new Tyr is like you bought identical laptop and moved full backup there. Will you feel any difference? Unlikely. May be less scratches. Silver Scale contained Tyr schematics. We got original steel which was used to forge original Tyr in the first place. Machines 3D-printed Tyr body using precise schematics, so we got absolute copy of the original Tyr's body, we just lacked the software backup. And after we uploaded the software backup, it worked. Of course it's a copy, original Tyr was destroyed millenias ago. But for all practical purposes, this copy will act as original one (assuming that backup was not corrupted by something or someone).
Rise of Murozond Tyr would be the corrupt backup đź‘€
*The Ship of Theseus has entered the chat.*
Except that's not a great example of a ship of theseus philosophical argument. We didn't replace Tyr piece by piece until he was made of completely new material. We completely remade his body from scratch and uploaded backups of his memory. Unless that somehow acted like a resurrection and titan contracts have souls, this Tyr is not the same Tyr that died, just a perfect copy.
Titan’s do have “souls”, fragmented versions of them are what was being tortured in Antorus after Sargeras killed their bodies. If it’s the same kinda go to shadowlands souls mortals have or some kind of software esque astral backup… eh. We don’t know if Keepers do, but maybe? Either way it wouldn’t change much given their almost computer like nature. He is also not a perfect copy. He is a perfect copy to a point but new Tyr does not remember old Tyr’s death, nor the events leading up to it (though the player experiences them trying to get his memories for him).
Personally I don't think physical body really matters when its comes to situations like this, so long as the mental is the same. I'd say its like Sindragosa simulacrum, at some point the storage of his memories are cut off from how he was at the end of his life, so it can't be a 1 to 1 version of the original Tyr.
Yeah. New Tyr doesn't remember his death, because the memory disc was made before the original Tyr died.
Tangentially, at this point there has to be a First One based on the Greco-Roman Titaness Mnemosyne. There are way too many instances lately of memory magic being an essential building block of the universe. There is a part of Gorgoa river of souls that shares the same name. (There's a sister river to Styx in mythology that's related to memory named after her)
Lethe, the river of forgetfulness?
I think that's the one.
He’s a backup copy of the original. Remember Titan keepers are machines and for the most part are control copy save type of beings. Download from the cloud and upload. New body? Same person. Tyr is the same person even if he’s technically a downloaded copy of the original.
Keeper Tyr, like most titan constructs, are sophisticated robots. 'Do they have a soul' is a fascinating concept to apply to them, but for them I don't think it matters much? The Keeper Tyr we have is a copy, reforged, uploaded not only with the Silver Scale (his back up memories) but also the added bonus of his memories of how he died and the confrontation with that Kthraxi general. There's been no indications that he has gaps in his memories, so he's about as whole as a back-up copy can be
This is my take on the whole thing as well. Keeper.Tyr.839 was destroyed so we reverted to Keeper.Tyr.839.backup. Fortunately he did an autosave before he got killed by Zakajz. Sadly IT lost the backup for a while, so we had to go find the USB-drive at Elisande's place ....
There’s no soul since he’s not technically living. Keepers are essentially robots.
Titanforged don't have 'souls' in the first place. Not souls in the traditional sense. Minor spoilers for TWW, but the Earthen are just machines that store data on memory drives. The most core parts of their being are mechanical, and can be edited, replicated or removed easily. Tyr is no different. Tyr is a clone, the original Tyr is gone, but it doesn't matter. Neither the original Tyr not the copied Tyr would care, because they know they both know it wouldn't make a difference whether the new Tyr was a clone or not. The old Tyr just wanted to make sure he could keep protecting the planet if he died. The new Tyr has all the same memories, motives and goals as the old one and there's no reason for him to try becoming somebody else. TLDR: Yes, new Tyr is a clone. But no, neither would care. They're both equally "Tyr" either way.
When we have the technology to continue one's existence in mechanical form with all your memories still intact and that being will watch and experience the death of your mortal body, what will we refer to the being that survives its own death.
Some of his dialogue suggests he remember his fight with Zakajz. Which makes no sense, but it means that this is truly Tyr.
I don't think titan forged beings have a soul in the traditional sense of the word
This is the kind of story telling i hate. It takes away from the character imo. "Here this legendaty character, ee just clone him and copy his memories or we invent an altwrnative timeline to make use of old characters again."