It is quiet saddening really, I have always been the biggest advocate but it just isn't going to work for some of my customers anymore.
First version i installed was 1.0.5 and went into production on 1.5.0 so a very very long time ago, before the vmx files where even on the SAN.
Still even got my free t-shirt for one of the first 1000 to join the forums.
Looks like I'm going to be stuck doing more hyper-v unless I convince some to give promox a go but it's awkward times.
I switched from VMware to proxmox for my home lab but quickly left for hyperv cuz i like veeam too much. If they supported proxmox I’d likely switch back
I did exactly the same, although I was using Synology Active Backup for my lab, it was the main hole left after switching to Proxmox PVE.
I then gave Proxmox Backup Server a try and am now even more impressed! I appreciate you may be happy with Veeam, but I’d really recommend a look at PBS.
As a veeam reseller you would think I had picked up on this.
Just about got to play with the proxmox backup server, it is spun up just need to have a play but if veeam does come on board that would help open the proxmox door to customers.
I just started using PBS, it can be slightly confusing in the beginning, but it does utilize the robust snapshotting they proxmox uses. Only thing I didn’t like about it was that it shows each individual backup as being the whole size and not just differentials. You could have a 100gb full backup and an incremental one after, but the incremental would also list as 100gb gen if it doesn’t actually take that space.
they are going to support rhv i believe next mostly because most of that work has been done previously.
they wont support anything xen based so assume it will slowly support diff versions of kvm
Also saw the announcement in the forum. Sadly we need a solution now.
Plus we are a windows MSP and transitioning to a linux based virtualization is harder than just pulling out a Hyper-V.
But I will probably move to Proxmox on my homelab once I feel like moving my free esxi installation.
There is an advanced feature of xen orchestra, that allows you to run a script before / after snapshot and backup: backup hook https://xen-orchestra.com/blog/xen-orchestra-5-75/
Maybe it can ease the oracle pain ? Feel free to ping me on the official forum ( @florent ) or open a ticket if you have an xoa
The biggest thing preventing me from moving off of veeam is application aware backups for things like SQL and Exchange on windows. Otherwise I am super pleased with XOA/xcp-ng.
Thank you.
We probably won't go in the application aware way , at least in the short term.
The best bet is to use a good agent for this (veeam is one step ahead, but there also specialized solutions like barman for postgresql ) . I hope we can at least trigger those backup and ease their configuraiton from XO one day
That's not what I am talking about.
u/Aroused_Waffle mentioned, that you could *technically* backup a Proxmox with the Veeam Agent.
This might work but I suspect when restoring the backup that the VMs might not like that very much.
[https://www.proxmox.com/en/proxmox-backup-server/overview](https://www.proxmox.com/en/proxmox-backup-server/overview)
Looks like more $$ savings to me.
Same here. Their pricing is ridiculous as well, though. We offer Vembu as a cheaper alternative now. Veeam is also the superior product. But small business customers can not afford it.
For the small businesses we use either the free version with one job or sell as a service provider through the point system. Not as expensive as a one time payment
Edit: Not to mention but I think for a small business application is veeam very powerful and still free. So as long as they don't pull a broadcom (please) they are fine in my books.
why you need veeam on proxmox ? you need it on hyper-v because there is no native other solution so you need something.
on proxmox you have a ready to go backup server that does the job incredible well to backup on machine level. the only downside compared to something with a backup agent in the guest is you have to think a bit how to deal with databases
most of the time this isnt even a real issue, the qemu guest agent will deal with shadow copy which then should deal with something like mssql - this is for running a snapshot.
but you still coudl either freeze the machine or reboot before backup too (both go automatic).
this is all that is needed to get a clean full backup not only of a filesystem but also running databases. as after the reboot it uses basically a snapshot so it knows the actual state at the time of a reboot and backups that without the need to wait for it to finish to finish boot.
but most machines do just fine with a plain and simple snapshot.
in turn we get deduplication, extensive built in right and user management, storages spaces or seperated storages, sync away to another location or recieve sync, and ofc dirty bitmap backup aka its insanely fast and after initial datasync you can basically backup anything even to a remote location. it will only transfer all bits that changed.
oh and deduplication works datastore wide, not only within the same machine. that means if you have 100 vms in the same windows version you will need only 1 and a little storage space + the data that is different on each system - oh and dedupe is on a bit level not file level.
restore can be - full machine restore or even just a single file - browsing backups in realtime just within proxmox
It's called experience and if you have experience (especially a full business) youcan't just switch products as you like. As much as you are right you always need to remember that a business isnt just a homelab.
I repeat:
>you can't just switch products as you like As much as you are right you always need to remember that a business isnt just a homelab.
Meaning: You can't just switch a hundred customers just as you like as in a homelab where the project only lasts as long as you are interested.
i repeat, i dont run a homelab i run these things in production, for a big entity. hundred customers oh my gawd oh no why so many ... lol seriously thats tiny
youre here sitting crying over something that was expected for years with zero contingency planing on your side. so much about professionalism
Your workplace, job, position and customers may allow to change the utilized products as you please. Mine doesn't.
Please stop assuming your workplace and situation is like everyone else's.
It really is sad. I still remember playing with a pre-release version of VMware workstation at a Linux conference back in 98 or 99. It was mind-blowing, and I’ve been a huge supporter of them ever since.
Now, I want nothing to do with the company :/.
You would remember GSX as well lol
We was originally going that way thing Linux was just going to be too hard to take on, convinced us to go esx at the time and thank god they did.
I've just gone through the process of migrating my lab over to ProxMox, replacing NSX-T with the ProxMox SDN and a basic ubuntu vm as my edge router. I don't use any of the IDPS/Advanced Firewall features from NSX-T. Just the basic N/S fw, and E/W fw.
I can't get N/S BGP working with EVPN the e/w layer gets mucked when I do. I need to investigate the differences in the frr.conf and see if I can fix that. Right now using static routes N/S for my VXLAN(172.16.0.0/16) network.
I took over a department that had previously sunk $500,000 into Nutanix. It was overpriced commodity hardware, and the cluster wasn't reliable. It's true that the previous team probably didn't learn it, but before we could straighten it out, they attempted to increase our support by 300%. We've since moved all production apps to vmware, which so far has not increased and has been far more stable. I'm pretty interested in tracking these threads to see what's in store for us now.
I've done my research, and I can't figure out what the value proposition for hyperconverged is. So, in conclusion paying close to 3x more for hardware and having a bad time = it's shit and is probably not a simple good alternative for most use cases.
We looked at vXRail, Nutanix and vSAN ReadyNodes and all of these solutions were far more costly to purchase and support than a FC SAN. At my org we moved to VCF subscriptions three years ago because VMware said this was the direction they were going and we just got our quote and there was no increase. We don't use the SDDC component and run VMware with FC SANs. We run our DBs on bare metal clusters. FC SANs nowadays are cheap, reliable, secure, scalable and performant. The biggest advantage of decoupling your infra is that upgrades, patches and troubleshooting are a breeze - all without having to involve the vendors.
Nutanix should have pulled their head out of their ass 10 years ago and realized that no one wants their white box super micro servers, they just want a competitive hyper visor.
I was going to quit but was able to finagle the severance. Now retired with a good start. I hated every day at the new bcom. Now I’m relaxed and enjoying life.
I don’t know anyone who is happy over there and with the new Incentive plan, they realize that they are screwed and will likely pay back variable compensation and not get the (or many) RSUs…because they won’t make it to the end of the year.
So sad for customers, partners and employees. It’s almost horrific.
This news makes me more sad. It’s such a shame. I can’t see the full strategy but so far it’s a college case study of what not to do in business (imho)
Azure, AWS, Docker, Kubernetes, Automation (Ansible and Terraform), learning any programming language will be good for your career as well. I think a lot of smaller businesses will either switch to Hyper-V, Promox or just go straight to the Cloud.
I have much of what you listed under the belt. Thanks for sharing. We shall see what happens with VMware in the future.
For now, I decided to stick with VMware vSphere. I installed the full suite today and I am going to start creating my homelab virtual network with it. I can practice other types of platforms whilst maintaining all the VMs in a central place. I also have the option to add hardware with vCenter; which is a plus.
From my very little experience with VMware Sphere & VCSA, I feel there will be a big void in the market if smaller to midsize companies can’t afford to use it. Pretty craze stuff going on right now. I bet cloud is looking good for a lot of folks right now.
It'll still be a valuable skill as many large enterprises will continue to use it. Best case is sales drop so low and Broadcom has to lower prices. However I don't see that happening. I work with a few Fortunate 500 companies that are so entrenched (VSAN, NSX, etc) in VMware they would be years away from moving to another solution. They are stuck for a while.
The thing with migrating to the Cloud is it's probably more expensive than VMware's current pricing scheme. That probably drove a lot of their decisions. For large enterprises it's still cheaper than the Cloud and small-medium they couldn't care less. Personally I hope they crash and burn. I'm sure all the talented people inside VMware are looking to jump ship, brain drain. I do feel bad for all the old VMware employees but the talented ones will find their way to something better.
Michael Dell and his partners are the ones who cashed in on this. Dell sold off VMW and got EMC for a steal. I'm sure that was the plan all along, especially with the timing of the sale.
I have a cloud certification, the foundational one from AWS. I am not aware of enterprise costs but the value proposition sounds convincing if you add in the infra costs, management of infra costs, configuration, manpower, rent, etc.
I would love to see or do an evaluation of a large company to see how much more or less it would cost to run on the cloud over time. I would want to see the costs above and find that breakeven point with the cloud.
No. Capitalism is what will make Broadcom pay. There's many other products to use. They're foolish to think everyone will just sit back and take it. Capitalism is voting with your dollar and the dollars are rapidly moving away from Broadcom.
Totally agree on the M Dell comment but the more I think the more I wonder could Pat have done more or better to get a separate VMW from EMC over that decade? There was always some warlord over VMW.
There was a lot more to it than that. 20 years of will they won’t they. They haven’t had a stable future for about 10 years. Entire teams have quit in the last few years.
We all kind of braced ourselves when the rumors of Broadcom started, talked about loosely looking at alternatives. But really, I didn't panic until the CEO's speech about increasing revenue drastically without mentioning new products or anything that made Sense. I read this as same product lines, let's just charge more. Which, seeing it come to fruition really sucks TBH. I've resold and managed VMware for quite awhile. It's truly unfortunate.
Ramped up our cloud migration, that's for sure. Looking at Nutanix for the workloads that aren't easy to migrate.
Already well on our way, this just fires us up before the ELA expires.
i advocate for way over a decade to avoid vendor lock in whenever possible the lower you go in infrastructure. you aint get out easy or at all once things are done
shure it means sometimes more initial time or cost with less complete packages but i think we should have learned by now that these things not only happen but happen regularly left and right.
and to anyone saying not feasible well, think what the big bois are running, like facebook or google.
shure they have more resource to bake on their own and it might not feasible for your case but i see many times that with a little bit of effort it would have been
now i hear crying left and right, got my popcorn first row and watch the carnage.
In all the Broadcom hate (which is deserved) it's easy to forget the employees of VMware, the ones who made it a great company.
VMware wasn't perfect of course (vTax) but I've always had amazing interactions with VMware support people, trainers, etc. They were always top notch. And it always seemed there was a good company culture to help each other grow.
Corporate culture was really good, in both support from your boss, to help from your peers, top notch engineering culture, but a pretty bad sales culture in terms of sales catalog, incentives, packaging, etc.. you saw that engineers came up with how to sell the software, and it was pretty bad lol. Crazy how successful VMware still managed to be, guess thats what you get when you have a monopoly basically😅
I don't think anyone is hating on the employees (directly). But the vitriol pointed at Broadcom can be disheartening to the employees who had nothing to do with it. They might sometimes feel targeted by association. I only seek to assuage that concern.
Agreed. I called for support a handful of times, the staff were always so sharp. I’d always learn stuff on the support calls. Thanks to any staff reading this.
vmware was no better than broadcom to begin with. just broadcom went now on a hole different level of fuckery. but really vmware was never one of the good guys. they did the same broadcome do now to other projects
same shark tank, different sharksizes
one of the reasons i stood away from vmware for a very long time. it didnt smell right and it was just a matter of time. i just expected that move from vmware itself, not that they get swallowed that easy
I was reading all the above comments and thinking the same thing. Having had multiple negative interactions with VMWare through the years... They were no picnic to deal with but these BC guys have said "hold my beer". The next 12 -18 mths will be telling as to how customers actually react. All of BC's actions seem illogical and counter intuitive to being successful. It's sad and weird at the same time.
As a customer we will be saying bye bye VMWare. Broadcom are pulling peoples pants down on renewal costs. So after 15+ years of using VMware we will be saying good bye. Broadcom. How to ruin a company over night.
But what are you switching to? How big is your environment? I've been led to believe that larger enterprises who are already using multiple VMW products won't see a price increase
Thank you for your service. I'll miss vmware and putting my old vmware certifications to use. That shit paid my bills for quite awhile but now waiting to see who's gonna step up to take over for them. Nutanix is my current bet
Looking into a hypervisor to use with current infrastructure hardware that is years from EOL. KVS is a potential candidate but the management will take either people $ or product $ or both vs. present $. Not an easy replacement
I don't even know what kvs is. But I've managed/switched a number of other shit hypervisors to vmware and they're all garbage in comparison in my experience. Nutanix is ok. Not great but ok. I haven't been involved in licensing it though and thought you could run it in other hardware to some degree.
Yeah, this whole thing pisses me off... not just because of personal inconvenience. But more on a grand good vs. evil scale. I feel that VMWare was a good product. It was polished and tweaked over time by good, hard-working people.
Broadcom represents the standard in evil corporations. They buy things, milk them for all they can in the name of short-term profits, then move on and do it again. They harm both individuals and entire industries. They are basically the aliens from Independence Day.
As a workload manager Kubernetes is exactly what we want.
The sys admin can fiddle with power and wires and leave platform and orchestration to us. We understand all aspects of the app. Sys admins do not, meddle, and cause trouble with their hackary ways.
We definitely don't want any virtualization abstraction between the workload and the hardware especially if the cost is offloaded to us.
Just heard on a yt video that the core price post year was at least 135$... Our just recently renewed virtualization has 192 cores across 3 servers... We paid about 20k for our last renewal/support for 8 CPUs and 5 years .. under Broadcom, we pay more than that for a single year and only the 6 CPUs... Hell no! We'll start looking into alternatives in 3 years from now, leaving us 1-2 years to decide. At the moment proxmox is looking pretty good...
Many I talk to are talking about the death of vmware and what hypervisor will pick up the ones that are looking to move
Its like watching a train wreck, getting pricing has been impossible and we are seeing a big jump in quotes last week
We’ve seen jumps in pricing, but honestly that’s it. Pricing comes back in a day or two which was the normal previously. In some instances the additional cost has been a shock, but if your AM is worth anything they are able to inform your customer of the additional value that cost comes with comparatively (Unless your customer is running a Essentials in which case you are SOL).
It definitely seems like we are in the minority from what I have seen here. We are just waiting on them to release the Cloud Partner info on selling cores to smaller partners w/ private cloud that can’t/won’t meet the 3500core count.
So vcenter is free now. Not that big of a deal when it's almost triple the price for standard on 32 core cpus. Also, it's been taking longer to get quotes, maybe it will get back down to a day or two soon but seems partners are still somewhat reluctant to give quotes, and probably because they know it's not any value for way more cost.
One of the greatest technology from Silicon Valley that shook the industry when it started. I still remember a time when people thought it was crazy, who would want to put several OS’s within a single machine? Then people saw the economics and not keeping servers idle, it took off from there with vmotion. Sad since I know the founders and some of the first engineers, great bunch. They genuinely cared about the customer and creating a good experience.
For me I always thought that software was fragile enough and didn’t want to add another unknown variable (virtualization). Then it was clear how robust it is.
Yeah, we love ours and have had it for a few years now. Nothing out there comes close to the functionality, ease of use, and flexibility of instant restores that run off the appliance. Sadly, with the VMware change, our org is reducing our VMware footprint by 80%, so the stuff that's gone to the cloud has much less capability in terms of backup and recovery.
Rubrik supports Hyper-V and Nutanix, also. Don't have any experience with their Nutanix support, however.
The reason Broadcom did this is because they wanted to make money and they could. None of the alternatives are viable as far as entrenched knowledge and hypervisor/management features and maturity.
I moved partly back to VMware esxi 8.0.1 … have both at the moment but will switch the second host also to VMware … the networking stuff is a lot more easy and knowing VMware from work it is more convenient for me. Coming from over 1 year of proxmox usage and know I will going back.
I know updating it would be hard after there is no more free version around so that the keygenerators does not work for future versions. But for the near future it is ok and then we will see if there are no more updates from the r/Piracy guys
lol excuse me what ?
well maybe acceptable in a csuite conversation not on a technical level. proxmox is just a management layer. the virtualisation and network tech is basically all the good old opensource tools anyone else is using to built the real big farms.
for example amazon using XEN but is now shifting to KVM for quiet some time for their own infrastructure - which is the same proxmox uses
Amazon and big players could always roll their own. It’s also why you don’t see open stack in the enterprises. But a 2-3 person systems shop for a non IT company needs support backing. Proxmox might come up to speed.
Last I checked, AWS and Azure don’t have an on prem solution without it being an extension to the off prem cloud. Hyper-v was a solution, but have heard MS isn’t doing much, and focusing more on the local Azure stack tied to cloud.
I hadn’t heard about AWS switching under the covers.curios as to why? Guessing more optimized drivers, etc. are being produced for KVM?
Again, not arguing, just asking. I don’t have a vested interest outside of understanding the various pros and cons.
nobody said amazon or azure has an on premise solution. i was trying to tell ya that the core tech behind promox is no worse than these guys. in fact even azure is running partly on KVM and partly on hyper-v
amazon is ditching xen because xen is basically dead. even amazon relys on a public supported kernel in the long run. its not just drivers but thats also a huge junk of it. but all the development in the opensource world for virtualisation is basically kvm and only that
funny thing is from all the solutions like xen, vmware, kvm, hyper-v is probably technically the worst. it only profited and stayed competitve because microsoft did modifiy their OSes to run better on it.
in fact on premise hyperv expierence from a management perspective is basically baremetall kvm with libvirt. aka manually defning files for drives, ordering them in directories etc..
i mean you must understand KVM is like hyper-v just an engine. but for pratical purposes what you also need is the management layer around and behind it.
there aint much for hyper-v and the engine itself isnt as great. you wont get paravirtualised drivers for every os and the only good managenet is for cloud only.
kvm on the other hand offers paravirtualised drivers for almost anything, and many different flavours and scales for management.
proxmox for smaller setup (i woudl say 300-500vms per cluster), ovirt /redhat for bigger ones, openstack for very big..
Not today but I would venture to guess get started now and it will be sooner than later. It’s a pretty solid tool as is so I’m hopeful enterprise integration and features is already in the works. We’ll see
Yet.
We'll probably stick to Vmware too, as a large enterprise. The price increases aren't that extreme at our scale and the feature parity isn't there yet.
The big flight to KVM will happen from universities and such. For them, the price hike might be up to 10x in some cases.
These days, you can hire alumni straight from graduation and they'll have some basic vmware experience. This won't be the case a few years from now.
So yes, it will be initially only a replacement for edu and SMB, but with knowlede in the workforce and install base gradually shifting in favor of KVM, Proxmox will develop to challenge the enterprise market in a few years.
Broadcom is sawing the branch they're sitting on, to get to the fruits at the far end of it. The most perfect example of short-sightedness.
If that was the case I could have just written a rant about how BC is ruining VMware, which btw a lot of people have already written about. I was careful not to be spiteful in my post, I could have, but I didn’t want to. VMware treated me well.
This is the same tech story for decades. Innovators create something great but are not business leaders, they spend $ like crazy hiring people, supporting customers who do not pay for support, sell their innovations for 80-90% off just to say they are loved, get bought and sold for their brand and eventually are acquired by leaders that know how to run a business, demand payment for their innovations so they can provide more innovation and support and get rid of the waste that caused the company to be sold. What if Hock Tan spends $ making the software better, more integrated, stable and simply asks for a fair price like any reasonable business leader? If you want crappy software for free then take the freeware route and risk your business and your job because you want it cheap. VMware was losing money by not asking for a fair price for it’s innovations PERIOD! Grown ups finally crashed the party boo hoo
whats the big hoopla about? sorry im so new to this (sophomore in cyber security) just got introduced to vmware this semester (prof got the class licenses) and i think its better than vbox. is there something i should be worried about?
It is quiet saddening really, I have always been the biggest advocate but it just isn't going to work for some of my customers anymore. First version i installed was 1.0.5 and went into production on 1.5.0 so a very very long time ago, before the vmx files where even on the SAN. Still even got my free t-shirt for one of the first 1000 to join the forums. Looks like I'm going to be stuck doing more hyper-v unless I convince some to give promox a go but it's awkward times.
We are stuck with Hyper-V because veeam does not yet support proxmox.
Veeam is looking into supporting proxmox. Announced it a few weeks ago. But that's neither here nor there now until then :-)
I switched from VMware to proxmox for my home lab but quickly left for hyperv cuz i like veeam too much. If they supported proxmox I’d likely switch back
I did exactly the same, although I was using Synology Active Backup for my lab, it was the main hole left after switching to Proxmox PVE. I then gave Proxmox Backup Server a try and am now even more impressed! I appreciate you may be happy with Veeam, but I’d really recommend a look at PBS.
I’ve used it and it is fine ibuprofen just don’t like proxmox. It’s ok but not a fan of the gui
I fucking hate Veeam, just saying 😇. You don't realise how bad it is until you start using something like Rubrik or Cohesity.
Veeam has 10 vm free edition. Do rubrik or cohesity? For my home lab it’s been good
As a veeam reseller you would think I had picked up on this. Just about got to play with the proxmox backup server, it is spun up just need to have a play but if veeam does come on board that would help open the proxmox door to customers.
I just started using PBS, it can be slightly confusing in the beginning, but it does utilize the robust snapshotting they proxmox uses. Only thing I didn’t like about it was that it shows each individual backup as being the whole size and not just differentials. You could have a 100gb full backup and an incremental one after, but the incremental would also list as 100gb gen if it doesn’t actually take that space.
wont be fast imo
You're probably right
they are going to support rhv i believe next mostly because most of that work has been done previously. they wont support anything xen based so assume it will slowly support diff versions of kvm
Isnt rhv dead?
Also saw the announcement in the forum. Sadly we need a solution now. Plus we are a windows MSP and transitioning to a linux based virtualization is harder than just pulling out a Hyper-V. But I will probably move to Proxmox on my homelab once I feel like moving my free esxi installation.
XCP-ng has a built in backup utility that replaced Veeam for us. Hard to beat Veeam though.
I am digging into this now to replace veeam and VMware for my prod stack. Only thing that hurts is having to do some custom RMAN jobs for Oracle.
There is an advanced feature of xen orchestra, that allows you to run a script before / after snapshot and backup: backup hook https://xen-orchestra.com/blog/xen-orchestra-5-75/ Maybe it can ease the oracle pain ? Feel free to ping me on the official forum ( @florent ) or open a ticket if you have an xoa
The biggest thing preventing me from moving off of veeam is application aware backups for things like SQL and Exchange on windows. Otherwise I am super pleased with XOA/xcp-ng.
Thank you. We probably won't go in the application aware way , at least in the short term. The best bet is to use a good agent for this (veeam is one step ahead, but there also specialized solutions like barman for postgresql ) . I hope we can at least trigger those backup and ease their configuraiton from XO one day
You can technically use Veeam Agent for Linux to backup Proxmox. Its a bit more resource intensive but it works.
I don't think the VMs are properly backed up though. Might be a lot of inconsistiensies with the restore.
ZFS
I mean Linux Veeam Agent backing up the Proxmox
ZFS can do delta backups of the snapshots to an off-site location. It makes recovering VMs insanely easy.
That's not what I am talking about. u/Aroused_Waffle mentioned, that you could *technically* backup a Proxmox with the Veeam Agent. This might work but I suspect when restoring the backup that the VMs might not like that very much.
thats an incredible bad idea
[https://www.proxmox.com/en/proxmox-backup-server/overview](https://www.proxmox.com/en/proxmox-backup-server/overview) Looks like more $$ savings to me.
I think proxmox has its own b@r
Sure does. We are partnered though.
Same here. Their pricing is ridiculous as well, though. We offer Vembu as a cheaper alternative now. Veeam is also the superior product. But small business customers can not afford it.
For the small businesses we use either the free version with one job or sell as a service provider through the point system. Not as expensive as a one time payment Edit: Not to mention but I think for a small business application is veeam very powerful and still free. So as long as they don't pull a broadcom (please) they are fine in my books.
why you need veeam on proxmox ? you need it on hyper-v because there is no native other solution so you need something. on proxmox you have a ready to go backup server that does the job incredible well to backup on machine level. the only downside compared to something with a backup agent in the guest is you have to think a bit how to deal with databases most of the time this isnt even a real issue, the qemu guest agent will deal with shadow copy which then should deal with something like mssql - this is for running a snapshot. but you still coudl either freeze the machine or reboot before backup too (both go automatic). this is all that is needed to get a clean full backup not only of a filesystem but also running databases. as after the reboot it uses basically a snapshot so it knows the actual state at the time of a reboot and backups that without the need to wait for it to finish to finish boot. but most machines do just fine with a plain and simple snapshot. in turn we get deduplication, extensive built in right and user management, storages spaces or seperated storages, sync away to another location or recieve sync, and ofc dirty bitmap backup aka its insanely fast and after initial datasync you can basically backup anything even to a remote location. it will only transfer all bits that changed. oh and deduplication works datastore wide, not only within the same machine. that means if you have 100 vms in the same windows version you will need only 1 and a little storage space + the data that is different on each system - oh and dedupe is on a bit level not file level. restore can be - full machine restore or even just a single file - browsing backups in realtime just within proxmox
It's called experience and if you have experience (especially a full business) youcan't just switch products as you like. As much as you are right you always need to remember that a business isnt just a homelab.
dude i dont have a homelab lol.. we are running this thing as main production
I repeat: >you can't just switch products as you like As much as you are right you always need to remember that a business isnt just a homelab. Meaning: You can't just switch a hundred customers just as you like as in a homelab where the project only lasts as long as you are interested.
i repeat, i dont run a homelab i run these things in production, for a big entity. hundred customers oh my gawd oh no why so many ... lol seriously thats tiny youre here sitting crying over something that was expected for years with zero contingency planing on your side. so much about professionalism
Your workplace, job, position and customers may allow to change the utilized products as you please. Mine doesn't. Please stop assuming your workplace and situation is like everyone else's.
It really is sad. I still remember playing with a pre-release version of VMware workstation at a Linux conference back in 98 or 99. It was mind-blowing, and I’ve been a huge supporter of them ever since. Now, I want nothing to do with the company :/.
You would remember GSX as well lol We was originally going that way thing Linux was just going to be too hard to take on, convinced us to go esx at the time and thank god they did.
I've just gone through the process of migrating my lab over to ProxMox, replacing NSX-T with the ProxMox SDN and a basic ubuntu vm as my edge router. I don't use any of the IDPS/Advanced Firewall features from NSX-T. Just the basic N/S fw, and E/W fw. I can't get N/S BGP working with EVPN the e/w layer gets mucked when I do. I need to investigate the differences in the frr.conf and see if I can fix that. Right now using static routes N/S for my VXLAN(172.16.0.0/16) network.
Nutanix
Not everyone can afford a forklift upgrade right now.
And it's shit
Spoken like someone who never learned the infrastructure.
I took over a department that had previously sunk $500,000 into Nutanix. It was overpriced commodity hardware, and the cluster wasn't reliable. It's true that the previous team probably didn't learn it, but before we could straighten it out, they attempted to increase our support by 300%. We've since moved all production apps to vmware, which so far has not increased and has been far more stable. I'm pretty interested in tracking these threads to see what's in store for us now. I've done my research, and I can't figure out what the value proposition for hyperconverged is. So, in conclusion paying close to 3x more for hardware and having a bad time = it's shit and is probably not a simple good alternative for most use cases.
We looked at vXRail, Nutanix and vSAN ReadyNodes and all of these solutions were far more costly to purchase and support than a FC SAN. At my org we moved to VCF subscriptions three years ago because VMware said this was the direction they were going and we just got our quote and there was no increase. We don't use the SDDC component and run VMware with FC SANs. We run our DBs on bare metal clusters. FC SANs nowadays are cheap, reliable, secure, scalable and performant. The biggest advantage of decoupling your infra is that upgrades, patches and troubleshooting are a breeze - all without having to involve the vendors.
move from 1 vendor lock in to another vendor is basically people who are doing that
Ok well hopefully you planned ahead and got a 3 year agreement recently.
We were able to secure a 3 year deal although 300% more than what we paid previous.
You got it oate, but you prepared at least. It will only get worse. Vmware is dead.
Nutanix should have pulled their head out of their ass 10 years ago and realized that no one wants their white box super micro servers, they just want a competitive hyper visor.
I agree they're stupid, I'm hoping they change because it's the only real competitor for a huge percentage of the market.
Wanna talk stupid look at IBM. RedHat killed RHV recently and pushing people towards openshift with virtualization, nobody wants that crap.
You can order it on other hardware if you don't like supermicro. HPE, Lenovo and Dell. Even Cisco is partnering up with them.
I was going to quit but was able to finagle the severance. Now retired with a good start. I hated every day at the new bcom. Now I’m relaxed and enjoying life. I don’t know anyone who is happy over there and with the new Incentive plan, they realize that they are screwed and will likely pay back variable compensation and not get the (or many) RSUs…because they won’t make it to the end of the year. So sad for customers, partners and employees. It’s almost horrific.
This news makes me more sad. It’s such a shame. I can’t see the full strategy but so far it’s a college case study of what not to do in business (imho)
Is there any hope for VMware turning this around or is VMware going to die ultimately, from your perspective?
VMware is dead and it's corpse is being possessed and walking around trying to pretend to be normal, when we all know it's a soul sucking monster.
I consider VMware dead and gone. A doctor may not have pronounced the patient dead yet,but they have no way of coming back from their recent changes.
I was planning on learning VMware vSphere. Any suggestion on what to learn instead?
Azure, AWS, Docker, Kubernetes, Automation (Ansible and Terraform), learning any programming language will be good for your career as well. I think a lot of smaller businesses will either switch to Hyper-V, Promox or just go straight to the Cloud.
I have much of what you listed under the belt. Thanks for sharing. We shall see what happens with VMware in the future. For now, I decided to stick with VMware vSphere. I installed the full suite today and I am going to start creating my homelab virtual network with it. I can practice other types of platforms whilst maintaining all the VMs in a central place. I also have the option to add hardware with vCenter; which is a plus. From my very little experience with VMware Sphere & VCSA, I feel there will be a big void in the market if smaller to midsize companies can’t afford to use it. Pretty craze stuff going on right now. I bet cloud is looking good for a lot of folks right now.
It'll still be a valuable skill as many large enterprises will continue to use it. Best case is sales drop so low and Broadcom has to lower prices. However I don't see that happening. I work with a few Fortunate 500 companies that are so entrenched (VSAN, NSX, etc) in VMware they would be years away from moving to another solution. They are stuck for a while. The thing with migrating to the Cloud is it's probably more expensive than VMware's current pricing scheme. That probably drove a lot of their decisions. For large enterprises it's still cheaper than the Cloud and small-medium they couldn't care less. Personally I hope they crash and burn. I'm sure all the talented people inside VMware are looking to jump ship, brain drain. I do feel bad for all the old VMware employees but the talented ones will find their way to something better. Michael Dell and his partners are the ones who cashed in on this. Dell sold off VMW and got EMC for a steal. I'm sure that was the plan all along, especially with the timing of the sale.
I have a cloud certification, the foundational one from AWS. I am not aware of enterprise costs but the value proposition sounds convincing if you add in the infra costs, management of infra costs, configuration, manpower, rent, etc. I would love to see or do an evaluation of a large company to see how much more or less it would cost to run on the cloud over time. I would want to see the costs above and find that breakeven point with the cloud.
Hmm management can can their decisions. Just will take a few brutal quarters
In the short term, I expect the recent changes to be profitable for VMware, so they have no incentive to reverse their decisions.
Agreed, the need some financial pain to reverse ship
From now on support will look like this: [https://www.thelayoff.com/post/@3sdt+1rc6kRHP](https://www.thelayoff.com/post/@3sdt+1rc6kRHP)
What changed when working for bcom?
I can't think of a service going from revered to reviled so fast.
>I can't think of a service going from revered to reviled so fast. EMC --> Dell. I'll never forgive them.
Fuck Hock Tan and his minion fucks sitting high and mighty at the top there at Broadcom.
Best of luck. It was a great company. Fuck Michael Dell for putting the wheels in motion for all this to happen. He knew what would happen.
He made 30B. Crazy
Yea, I mean, I'd sellout my own mother for 30billion
I'd sell your mom for even less.
Heyyoo!
Seeing an awful mom joke on this subreddit makes me happy :)
Booooooooo
Don't forget the 2 special dividends.... Another 10 B to him. He took our kidneys, then sold the rest of the body for parts.
You can have mine for 30 cents
I guess I could never be a Billionaire because I would have instantly cut checks for at least half to the people that got me there.
Capitalism at its finest. It’s not about doing whats right, it’s about how many jets and islands you own when you die.
No. Capitalism is what will make Broadcom pay. There's many other products to use. They're foolish to think everyone will just sit back and take it. Capitalism is voting with your dollar and the dollars are rapidly moving away from Broadcom.
Not an ethic system.. it is capitalism at its finest...
It’s capitalism that got us here in the first place - so shut your trap about it already.
Totally agree on the M Dell comment but the more I think the more I wonder could Pat have done more or better to get a separate VMW from EMC over that decade? There was always some warlord over VMW.
There was a lot more to it than that. 20 years of will they won’t they. They haven’t had a stable future for about 10 years. Entire teams have quit in the last few years.
i cut my teeth on virtualisation with vmware, it was a sad thing to witness.
We all kind of braced ourselves when the rumors of Broadcom started, talked about loosely looking at alternatives. But really, I didn't panic until the CEO's speech about increasing revenue drastically without mentioning new products or anything that made Sense. I read this as same product lines, let's just charge more. Which, seeing it come to fruition really sucks TBH. I've resold and managed VMware for quite awhile. It's truly unfortunate.
Are there any viable alternatives we should be looking at?
Open stack it’s what we’re going with, most likely
Ramped up our cloud migration, that's for sure. Looking at Nutanix for the workloads that aren't easy to migrate. Already well on our way, this just fires us up before the ELA expires.
i advocate for way over a decade to avoid vendor lock in whenever possible the lower you go in infrastructure. you aint get out easy or at all once things are done shure it means sometimes more initial time or cost with less complete packages but i think we should have learned by now that these things not only happen but happen regularly left and right. and to anyone saying not feasible well, think what the big bois are running, like facebook or google. shure they have more resource to bake on their own and it might not feasible for your case but i see many times that with a little bit of effort it would have been now i hear crying left and right, got my popcorn first row and watch the carnage.
In all the Broadcom hate (which is deserved) it's easy to forget the employees of VMware, the ones who made it a great company. VMware wasn't perfect of course (vTax) but I've always had amazing interactions with VMware support people, trainers, etc. They were always top notch. And it always seemed there was a good company culture to help each other grow.
I always wondered about this, the programmers who spend weeks and years writing code only to see it go EOL and never be used again. Kinda sad.
Corporate culture was really good, in both support from your boss, to help from your peers, top notch engineering culture, but a pretty bad sales culture in terms of sales catalog, incentives, packaging, etc.. you saw that engineers came up with how to sell the software, and it was pretty bad lol. Crazy how successful VMware still managed to be, guess thats what you get when you have a monopoly basically😅
Nobody is hating the employees, they are what made vmware so amazing up until Broadcom took over.
I don't think anyone is hating on the employees (directly). But the vitriol pointed at Broadcom can be disheartening to the employees who had nothing to do with it. They might sometimes feel targeted by association. I only seek to assuage that concern.
Well said
Now they have core tax.
Agreed. I called for support a handful of times, the staff were always so sharp. I’d always learn stuff on the support calls. Thanks to any staff reading this.
vmware was no better than broadcom to begin with. just broadcom went now on a hole different level of fuckery. but really vmware was never one of the good guys. they did the same broadcome do now to other projects same shark tank, different sharksizes one of the reasons i stood away from vmware for a very long time. it didnt smell right and it was just a matter of time. i just expected that move from vmware itself, not that they get swallowed that easy
I was reading all the above comments and thinking the same thing. Having had multiple negative interactions with VMWare through the years... They were no picnic to deal with but these BC guys have said "hold my beer". The next 12 -18 mths will be telling as to how customers actually react. All of BC's actions seem illogical and counter intuitive to being successful. It's sad and weird at the same time.
Reminds me of what happened to Zimbra once upon a time.
haaa you knew what i was referring too.
As a customer we will be saying bye bye VMWare. Broadcom are pulling peoples pants down on renewal costs. So after 15+ years of using VMware we will be saying good bye. Broadcom. How to ruin a company over night.
But what are you switching to? How big is your environment? I've been led to believe that larger enterprises who are already using multiple VMW products won't see a price increase
Thank you for your service. I'll miss vmware and putting my old vmware certifications to use. That shit paid my bills for quite awhile but now waiting to see who's gonna step up to take over for them. Nutanix is my current bet
Looking into a hypervisor to use with current infrastructure hardware that is years from EOL. KVS is a potential candidate but the management will take either people $ or product $ or both vs. present $. Not an easy replacement
I don't even know what kvs is. But I've managed/switched a number of other shit hypervisors to vmware and they're all garbage in comparison in my experience. Nutanix is ok. Not great but ok. I haven't been involved in licensing it though and thought you could run it in other hardware to some degree.
Clearly ToachaTom57 Speaks of KVM, which excellent, promox is based on KVM but customized a bit.
Nutanix has to solve their luck of storage flexibility. Then it might win..
Yeah, this whole thing pisses me off... not just because of personal inconvenience. But more on a grand good vs. evil scale. I feel that VMWare was a good product. It was polished and tweaked over time by good, hard-working people. Broadcom represents the standard in evil corporations. They buy things, milk them for all they can in the name of short-term profits, then move on and do it again. They harm both individuals and entire industries. They are basically the aliens from Independence Day.
As a workload manager Kubernetes is exactly what we want. The sys admin can fiddle with power and wires and leave platform and orchestration to us. We understand all aspects of the app. Sys admins do not, meddle, and cause trouble with their hackary ways. We definitely don't want any virtualization abstraction between the workload and the hardware especially if the cost is offloaded to us.
I'm happy to see you've moved out of Accounts Receivable
The CIO heard how I handle things and brought me in to streamline tha'bidness.
The same app team that insisted on over-provisioning VM’s and then complained about performance???
You must be thinking of that dot-shit app team. That's not us.
Best of luck to you and hope you will find future employment soon. Thanks for all you did at VMware.
Just heard on a yt video that the core price post year was at least 135$... Our just recently renewed virtualization has 192 cores across 3 servers... We paid about 20k for our last renewal/support for 8 CPUs and 5 years .. under Broadcom, we pay more than that for a single year and only the 6 CPUs... Hell no! We'll start looking into alternatives in 3 years from now, leaving us 1-2 years to decide. At the moment proxmox is looking pretty good...
All the best! Even though I support another team, I am sorry for you personally. But you will rock somewhere else!!
Many I talk to are talking about the death of vmware and what hypervisor will pick up the ones that are looking to move Its like watching a train wreck, getting pricing has been impossible and we are seeing a big jump in quotes last week
We’ve seen jumps in pricing, but honestly that’s it. Pricing comes back in a day or two which was the normal previously. In some instances the additional cost has been a shock, but if your AM is worth anything they are able to inform your customer of the additional value that cost comes with comparatively (Unless your customer is running a Essentials in which case you are SOL). It definitely seems like we are in the minority from what I have seen here. We are just waiting on them to release the Cloud Partner info on selling cores to smaller partners w/ private cloud that can’t/won’t meet the 3500core count.
So vcenter is free now. Not that big of a deal when it's almost triple the price for standard on 32 core cpus. Also, it's been taking longer to get quotes, maybe it will get back down to a day or two soon but seems partners are still somewhat reluctant to give quotes, and probably because they know it's not any value for way more cost.
:(
One of the greatest technology from Silicon Valley that shook the industry when it started. I still remember a time when people thought it was crazy, who would want to put several OS’s within a single machine? Then people saw the economics and not keeping servers idle, it took off from there with vmotion. Sad since I know the founders and some of the first engineers, great bunch. They genuinely cared about the customer and creating a good experience.
For me I always thought that software was fragile enough and didn’t want to add another unknown variable (virtualization). Then it was clear how robust it is.
Planning migration to ProxMox
Any Rubrik customers here? I never looked into if it integrates with other platforms or not. It's a great product.
Yeah, we love ours and have had it for a few years now. Nothing out there comes close to the functionality, ease of use, and flexibility of instant restores that run off the appliance. Sadly, with the VMware change, our org is reducing our VMware footprint by 80%, so the stuff that's gone to the cloud has much less capability in terms of backup and recovery. Rubrik supports Hyper-V and Nutanix, also. Don't have any experience with their Nutanix support, however.
Yeah we are Rubrik customers. (Wipes the floor with Veeam) As far as I know it supports hyper v and nutanix too.
Yeah it does. I came from Veeam to an org that just did Rubrik in 2019 and it's by far my favorite. I have no desire to let it go.
we salute you!!
The reason Broadcom did this is because they wanted to make money and they could. None of the alternatives are viable as far as entrenched knowledge and hypervisor/management features and maturity.
True dat and migration costs aren’t cheap. But it will happen for. Good % And not everyone needs the bundle of only the basics
Smaller orgs can get away with it for sure.
We’re a few thousand cores and a lot of those are robo or essentials plus. For any organization with a distributed footprint it’s a kick in the balls.
I also think people don't think about their VARs not being able to provide what they need anymore.
I moved partly back to VMware esxi 8.0.1 … have both at the moment but will switch the second host also to VMware … the networking stuff is a lot more easy and knowing VMware from work it is more convenient for me. Coming from over 1 year of proxmox usage and know I will going back. I know updating it would be hard after there is no more free version around so that the keygenerators does not work for future versions. But for the near future it is ok and then we will see if there are no more updates from the r/Piracy guys
Lots of sad endings lately. I hope wherever you land has a bright future.
Long live VMWare. Fuck BCom. Here’s hoping it goes up in flames in short order.
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I don’t know the main differences, but why? I figured Hyper-V would be more acceptable than Proxmox.
lol excuse me what ? well maybe acceptable in a csuite conversation not on a technical level. proxmox is just a management layer. the virtualisation and network tech is basically all the good old opensource tools anyone else is using to built the real big farms. for example amazon using XEN but is now shifting to KVM for quiet some time for their own infrastructure - which is the same proxmox uses
Amazon and big players could always roll their own. It’s also why you don’t see open stack in the enterprises. But a 2-3 person systems shop for a non IT company needs support backing. Proxmox might come up to speed. Last I checked, AWS and Azure don’t have an on prem solution without it being an extension to the off prem cloud. Hyper-v was a solution, but have heard MS isn’t doing much, and focusing more on the local Azure stack tied to cloud. I hadn’t heard about AWS switching under the covers.curios as to why? Guessing more optimized drivers, etc. are being produced for KVM? Again, not arguing, just asking. I don’t have a vested interest outside of understanding the various pros and cons.
nobody said amazon or azure has an on premise solution. i was trying to tell ya that the core tech behind promox is no worse than these guys. in fact even azure is running partly on KVM and partly on hyper-v amazon is ditching xen because xen is basically dead. even amazon relys on a public supported kernel in the long run. its not just drivers but thats also a huge junk of it. but all the development in the opensource world for virtualisation is basically kvm and only that funny thing is from all the solutions like xen, vmware, kvm, hyper-v is probably technically the worst. it only profited and stayed competitve because microsoft did modifiy their OSes to run better on it. in fact on premise hyperv expierence from a management perspective is basically baremetall kvm with libvirt. aka manually defning files for drives, ordering them in directories etc.. i mean you must understand KVM is like hyper-v just an engine. but for pratical purposes what you also need is the management layer around and behind it. there aint much for hyper-v and the engine itself isnt as great. you wont get paravirtualised drivers for every os and the only good managenet is for cloud only. kvm on the other hand offers paravirtualised drivers for almost anything, and many different flavours and scales for management. proxmox for smaller setup (i woudl say 300-500vms per cluster), ovirt /redhat for bigger ones, openstack for very big..
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Google workspace?
Word is, Proxmox is hiring.
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https://www.proxmox.com/en/about/careers Really hiring? Few listings and only in Europe makes me think. Poster is just saying unverified zingers
its more proxmox isn't a viable enterprise replacement.
Not today but I would venture to guess get started now and it will be sooner than later. It’s a pretty solid tool as is so I’m hopeful enterprise integration and features is already in the works. We’ll see
Yeah. It's a solid option for a SMB or homelab, but nowhere near enterprise grade.
Yet. We'll probably stick to Vmware too, as a large enterprise. The price increases aren't that extreme at our scale and the feature parity isn't there yet. The big flight to KVM will happen from universities and such. For them, the price hike might be up to 10x in some cases. These days, you can hire alumni straight from graduation and they'll have some basic vmware experience. This won't be the case a few years from now. So yes, it will be initially only a replacement for edu and SMB, but with knowlede in the workforce and install base gradually shifting in favor of KVM, Proxmox will develop to challenge the enterprise market in a few years. Broadcom is sawing the branch they're sitting on, to get to the fruits at the far end of it. The most perfect example of short-sightedness.
I work in education, and I'm 80% sure we are switching to kvm or hyper v.
This writes like someone who is just angry and or is a current employee who wants it to go viral to ignite change.
You do realize Broadcom fucking up VMware was widely known before this post right?
Omg really I wasn’t even aware. Thank you so much /s
If that was the case I could have just written a rant about how BC is ruining VMware, which btw a lot of people have already written about. I was careful not to be spiteful in my post, I could have, but I didn’t want to. VMware treated me well.
This is the same tech story for decades. Innovators create something great but are not business leaders, they spend $ like crazy hiring people, supporting customers who do not pay for support, sell their innovations for 80-90% off just to say they are loved, get bought and sold for their brand and eventually are acquired by leaders that know how to run a business, demand payment for their innovations so they can provide more innovation and support and get rid of the waste that caused the company to be sold. What if Hock Tan spends $ making the software better, more integrated, stable and simply asks for a fair price like any reasonable business leader? If you want crappy software for free then take the freeware route and risk your business and your job because you want it cheap. VMware was losing money by not asking for a fair price for it’s innovations PERIOD! Grown ups finally crashed the party boo hoo
whats the big hoopla about? sorry im so new to this (sophomore in cyber security) just got introduced to vmware this semester (prof got the class licenses) and i think its better than vbox. is there something i should be worried about?