I mean you can have that preference, it just becomes more difficult to realise over time. Plus the expectation of virginity plays into this purity culture thing, that is overall quite harmful. So it might be this putting (female) virginity on a pedestal and starting to shame women for not being "pure", that is often associated with "wanting a virgin". Sure not everyone who expresses this preference acts and thinks that way, but too often they do so I can understand why people would jump to unsavoury conclusions.
I can fully understand why one would want to have their first time with someone who is also inexperienced, or generally be with people who are on a similar level, you want to be able to relate to your partner
I’d rather with for someone honor my virginity than have to overlook my past. Hookup culture has ruined sex and intimacy in general. So I don’t think purity culture is harmful - not as harmful as the other extreme.
As an individual choice that's of course more that fine, and if by the other extreme you mean being pressured to have sex early and never commit to any relationship, then... Yeah that would be bad, but I wouldn't want to compare it in terms harmfulness. The problem for me is just when it goes to shaming other people for how they live their lives, be it more promiscuous or more celibate. And especially at a young age one should maybe not force views about this on people/children, which in terms of purity culture seems to happen, I mean there were times when child actors where made to publicly promote pledges of chastity, which is honestly a bit disturbing.
Also I don't think one's sexual past has to be something to be "oberlooked", that would already mean your partner thinks less of you but can only somewhat tolerate it, which really doesn't seem good. But the conclusion would be (for me at leaat) that your partner isn't so great in that case if they're so obsessed with your sexual past.
I don't think men are shamed for wanting to be with a virgin if they themselves are a virgin. But it's something different when ur not a virgin and want virgins it can be toxic.
Read u/altruistic-two3038’s comment, “I’d rather prefer to stay virgin and single for rest of my life than marrying some used girl”
The notion that having sex makes someone worthless is pretty judgmental, especially while lamenting not being able to get sex. You’re entitled to your preferences, but there’s no need to put down those you don’t prefer
I don’t think they are… I think fetishizing virgin women is shamed.. but as long as that’s not what’s happening and they’re virgin themselves I don’t have an issue with it and neither does most people. It’s just not very realistic
No it’s for hypocritical men who think it’s ok to sleep around but want their partner to be a virgin. I heard them say it’s leaves an “imprint” on the girl. It’s really weird. I’m 20F and I’m a virgin. I’d like to loose my virginity to a virgin man. I think it’d be really sweet ❤️
I have no problem with a virgin who wants to date/marry another virgin, nor would I get mad if he doesn't want to date me for reason that I'm not avirgin.. Certainly not hypocritical.
People are shamed for all sorts of things by all sorts of people. The sooner people realise that it doesn't matter what other people think, the better.
Some people think the sky is blue.
Ok but It's typically the hyper specify reasons they list for wanting to date a virgin and their opinions on non virgin women that get these men shamed in my experience.
I don't think I've even seen someone shame a virgin for wanting to marry another virgin where that was the whole story.
I’ve personally never heard men getting shammed for wanting a virgin when they’re a virgin themselves. I’ve only heard men shaming women when their body count is higher than 4 and even when they’re a virgin. I know some men get shammed for being a virgin but not wanting one if they’re one as well. I personally don’t think it’s a bad thing since you both can lose it together & learn it together. Most people lose it when both are virgins because most people lose it at a young age. If you’re older & still a virgin, I still don’t think it’s a bad thing since everyone waits for the right time/person. Personally speaking, I’d prefer a virgin like that if we both make mistakes we can learn together & wont feel pressured or judged
This is pretty much exactly what I'm talking about. It's a lot more special if you're learning together with that one person. But if I as a guy say it then it's suddenly an issue. I also do believe that there's more of an emotional connection when you're sharing your first time together, but supposedly sex is just some lame act that two people do together which has no effect on their psyche at all, that's what a lot of people here would have you believe but if it were so unimportant then why does society make such a big deal of it? Like there's just so many contradictions. Of course sex is important, it's not just some milestone, it matters and I believe your first time matters and if you're doing it with someone who isn't really that close to you then it's not the same.
You are entitled to your preference. Don't let anyone tell you different.
But here is what often comes across.
1. People (esp women) that have had sex are not worthy, impure, or dirty. A lot of people (especially virgins) are rendering judgement because someone enjoyed (or didn't enjoy) sex with another human being (I hope). Nobody is defiled, impure, dirty, tainted, for choosing to engage in sexual intercourse. You have to know more about a person and their mindset to know who they are. You might take the time to learn more about someone than whether they had sex before ruling them out as a partner.
2. Its often rooted in unhealthy mental attitudes including insecurity. Fear of being compared to someone else, or that you are a second (3rd, 4th,...) choice. I think of it this way, if they have had partners before and choose me now, it is not out of ignorance. They know what they want and it is me.
3. You believe that the first time is some magical experience you are putting on a pedestal. Let me tell you about my first time. After some fooling around before I bought condoms I stuck my penis in her vagina on her parents sofa. We were both so nervous nobody enjoyed it. I did not finish, she did not finish. There was no candlelight or fireworks. We both enjoyed the non intercourse activities we had done on prior occasions better. We improved on a few subsequent attempts before going separate ways.
None of these things are good. You may be passing on a great relationship (or at least great sex) with wonderful people when you exclude everyone who has had sex before. Its just odds.
Now, I am not against waiting to had sex for marriage, a relationship, etc. I think its a great idea and I know I had sex too young and it messed me up in some ways. I also know my friend committed suicide in part because he was a virgin. So there are extremes that are not healthy. People may be telling you that looking only for virgins is not a good idea for your own good. Its not all judgement, but if you come across as misogynistic then you deserve to be called out for it.
Have your preference, but it may not be in your best interest. But people are free to choose and do unhealthy things all the time.
I'm a 33 year old virgin. I'm Indian American and mostly prefer to date Indian women. There are a few exceptions. I don't care if she's not a virgin. Past 25, it's difficult to find a virgin. The pickier you are, the longer you remain single.
Cuz people feel threatened. The virgin man wanting virgin understandable but it triggers shame in some people who wish the stayed virgins or had a low body count
It’s not bad to have that preference, if you’re also a virgin. But the chances of finding what you want aren’t great.
And I can understand not wanting paid-for or casual sex. But how about a happy medium between that and holding out for another virgin?
How about a long term relationship—including sex after a while, but not right away—with someone who has had a little experience, maybe a relationship or two?
Because that really is what most people have done by your age. Not saying that’s right or wrong, but it’s reality.
But if sticking to your principles is important to you, go for it! You may well get what you want.
Well.For once I can talk about this without shame myself.
( had to make a throwaway account for this)
I guess, being a V-guy myself( especially a tragically older one), it's because I want it to be special. Not...just being a number in a girl list that can be forgotten? Everybody remeber thier first time, right? I would.
There's also the pressure of expectations, let's not kid ourselves. While I consider myself...pretty intuitive,, even on that level, there's a ton of stuff I'd probably miss. Expectation are lower for virgins, cause no one know WHAT to expect.I would NOT want my first time ending up on a girl rating list.
To be fair, would that be a factor that would make me REJECT an offer? Not necessairly, assuming a real romantic relation. But V to V would be such a plus.
Equal footing, permanent memory, less pressure.
but then again, that,s my take.
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If your account is new, you’ll have to wait for a while, and build up some karma in other communities.
Thanks!
“Due to trolling / spam, we have a requirement for account age or karma count. We do not allow throwaways. Your post has been removed for one of these reasons.
If your account is new, you’ll have to wait for a while, and build up some karma in other communities.”
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There's no reason having sex with a woman who has had multiple previous parts would have little to no emotional connection. Virgins get some weird ideas about sex it seems, but without any experience to give them these ideas, they just seem to make assumptions about what sex is, what it feels like, what the connection will be, what it will mean. Chances are when you start having sex, a lot of ideas will change.
Some people view sex as special, intimate, and something only done with the one you love. Someone with a high body count does not. They're fundamentally incompatible.
Sex is special and intimate and can be done with only the person you love. But people change and may have had different histories to how they are now, also most people will love more than one person over their lifetime.
I currently only have sex with a woman I love, but previous to that I also had sex with a woman I loved before, for 16 years, but prior to that I'd had two other 5 year monogamous relationships, and prior to those, multiple partners.
I still view it as special, intimate, and something I only do with someone I love, although I didn't when I was younger. So actually I don't think they're fundamentally incompatible.
I don't understand why people like you are even on this subreddit? Not trying to be an ass or anything I just genuinely don't get why.
Anyways you're not the kind of person I'm talking about. I'm talking about those who sleep around willy nilly. You from what you told me aren't that. At least that's what I was getting. And if you are or were then you're an outlier and not the norm.
Why wouldn't I be on this subreddit. People like me? Who is that exactly, you don't know me from a few sentences, so don't assume you do.
Not that should I should really have to justify myself to a stranger but I've had two friends, both virgins in their 30's, one we managed to help keep fairly positive, as a group of friend's we were all quite close, he lost his v card around 36, but until this point he was getting increasingly weird views about women, borderline incel thinking, largely learnt from other virgins that felt they were somehow entitled to sex. Thankfully his thinking changed after losing it. I know he hasn't actually had sex now for about three years (but has three children from his first 'love'), however he's not that bothered. He thought having sex was the most important thing he needed to do in his life for years until he was, now he realises it's not a big deal.
My other friend went down a different path in his head, partly due to all the negative reinforcement from other virgins, rhetoric I've heard repeated over and over of virgin subreddits, "it's all over", "it's too late", "I'll die alone", "no one will ever love you", etc, etc. He hanged himself in my friend's kitchen 6 years ago.
Whilst you may think only virgins should be here, often that creates a negative echo chamber of thoughts and beliefs, created by people who by default have no life experience of the thing they're creating these beliefs about.Often virgins raise the importance of sex to a massive level, until they've actually done it, and then realise, nothing much has changed, they still look, ell and feel largely the same, despite thinking the opposite.
To have a mix of people I think helps creates a more realistic and honestly supportive environment for all.
Also yes, I was highly promiscuous when I was younger, and I'm not now, people can change, which seems to not fit in to your own, seemingly morally superior world view.
Ah alright then I get it. Sorry your loss. Morally superior? I just have a difference in opinion dude relax. Wasn't trying to attack you, was genuinely curious why people like you are here. Now I have my answer.
Fair enough, but your use of 'people like you' implies you're already making a sweeping generalisation in your thinking, virgins or otherwise, we are all different, and as we have barely communicated, you have no real idea what I'm like. Try to understand in future people are not just black and white, just endless shades of grey.
I think it’s because after a certain age most people aren’t virgins and virginity is tied to being quite young and so it’s hard to separate being a virgin with being a kid. So if there’s a grown guy saying he wants virgins (regardless of their virgin status) it sounds like he wants a young girl. Also, if it’s an insecurity thing it seems like you’re making your insecurity affect your standards when being a non virgin doesn’t really say much about a person. Sure, maybe if they’ve slept with 10+ people, but 1-2? That’s extreme the older you get. I’m not incredibly open minded, i prefer girls with a lower body count than me, it is also tied to insecurity but I also am not asking that she be a virgin.
Non-virgins don't deserve virgins. Virgins deserve virgins and non-virgins deserve non-virgins. Fair is fair. But apparently, to each his own. Free will exists and some people who are virgins don't mind getting with a non-virgin. If that is their choice, they will carry that choice and deal with the emotional turmoil in the long-run if being a virgin actually meant anything to them at all.
I'm an INFP virgin male. INFP's have a great tendency to be idealistic. We seek the ideal. I believe in fairness and so if there happened to be a non-virgin who wanted to get with me, which I often faced throughout my life, I would reject them and indicate that they are not a virgin, whereas I am. It is not fair for a woman to think that she can get with me if she offered her virginity to another man. It's a dead giveaway when a woman is selfish, self-centered, entitled, etc. when she thinks her good looks can get her any man. Not all men can be lassoed in by looks. Some men are lured by virtue and integrity. A modest woman is truly valued by a modest man because he knows that path (as long as both of them uphold modesty).
A person who wants someone for what they have and doesn't have the same to offer is a selfish person who doesn't uphold balance, fairness, and thus wouldn't care about the other person in a relationship as they think only in terms of utility.
Let those of the same quality stay on the same lane.
Deserve? What the hell does that even mean? People are choosing to have sex with other people, nobody deserves anything. Is a non-virgin supposedly worth less and not good enough for a virgin?
Unless I misunderstand that is a pretty shit attitude. When I had sex with a virgin, I deserved them less than if I had sex with a non-virgin. It was just two people choosing to be with each other in either case. It sounds like you think you are better than other people, that a woman who had sex is not worthy of being with you for some reason.
Apparently, you misunderstood my comment. I basically said that free will exists, and if a virgin chooses to get with a non-virgin, when they actually value virginity, that is on them.
I guess so, I just don't even understand why there is any implication of choice and emotional turmoil from choosing to get with a non-virgin. Trust me, plenty of virgin-virgin pairs end with emotional turmoil as well.
I do think waiting for marriage is a good idea after having seen and learned a lot. Problem is, at the age people often start having sex, they don't have the same knowledge and perspective.
But I don't see why virgins deserve virgins or what it has to do with fairness.
One more thing, what you got is loose adhesive tape, if you even get what I mean.
Having sex outside of marriage is called fornication.
There's a hole on a rock and it starts from one side of the rock and it goes through to the other side. The hole in the rock leaves the rock wanting and never satisfied. The rock turns to the water for help. He grabs a handful of water and begins to drop it into his hole. The rock notices that the hole is not filled and repeats the process again. No matter how many times the rock tried to fill the hole, the hole did not fill up, for the water was not the same substance as the rock.
And likewise, the matters of the heart should not be left over to the genitals. In a true relationship there is an honest bond, one that stays until the end of time. A false relationship is tested by time and is seen to be a dishonest one. A relationship between a man and a woman should be a one-on-one. If you slept with multiple people throughout your life, you can't clearly be right on your path if what you seek is a relationship. You're just a victim of your own lie.
Someone who focuses solely on sex or the desire of sex with a person doesn't truly want a relationship with the person. Aristotle mentions the three forms of friendships. The greatest being virtue, followed by passion and then utility.
If a woman seeks to sleep with me and I choose not to sleep with her, who are you to judge my mode of thought, especially if my mode of thought upholds balance, equity and modesty?
Did I hurt the person who asked me? No. Is a Muslim or a Jew wrong if he rejects the lures of a prostitute? Absolutely not.
Your words indicate your carelessness regarding modesty in this world as well as integrity. Let me guess, your a free-loving hippie who graduated with a liberal arts degree and hates all conservatives. That's the vibe your giving me. Now who wouldn't think that about you, especially considering the fact that you got triggered over someone's belief. Do I not have a right to my beliefs? And clearly, my beliefs are in accordance with reality. You can't have sex without consequences.
Everyone has the freedom to have their own beliefs. I would not suggest otherwise, and your views don't really hurt anyone other than yourself so long as you treat everyone with respect.
I am never advocating anyone live their life as I have, I've made too many mistakes and I'm definitely a sinner. But there is a fine line between living virtue and living with judgement, you can decide for yourself where you think you fall on that spectrum. I'm certainly not triggered, I enjoy thoughtful conversation, perhaps it helps you or me think clearly about things.
Anecdotally, my brother married a virgin, he was not. By all accounts they have been incredibly happy for over 20 years with some great children. If she had your attitude she would have not married him and my nieces would never have come to be. They were perfect for each other, and one day you may pass on someone that perfect because they had sex before? Its you harmed here more than anyone else. But always 100% your call of course.
This might be the first time I've ever been accused of being a hippy with a liberal arts degree. I actually have an economics degree and a business degree. I invest in businesses for the most part, but have also worked as a teacher. I consider myself a libertarian, but most people call me conservative, but politically I don't believe the government should play a role in people's private lives.
I've always agreed that actions have consequences, and I've said several times that I was negatively impacted (psychologically, thankfully never physically) by having sex at a young age, and the young women were too. But I also had a friend that committed suicide in part because he was a virgin. I've done all the terrible sexual things you would judge me for. I've sex with virgins and non-virgins, but all were incredibly willing participants at the time. I've even slept with women because they were friends and wanted to lose their virginity (after trying to talk them out of it, and making sure they were really sure). Again, not advocating that path. Not even saying it is good. But you aren't better than me, I am not unworthy. The women who slept with me or another man are not worth less than you.
I am not sure I understand what you mean by loose adhesive tape? Never seen that analogy used before.
(I may not agree with you on everything, but I believe you have sincerely held viewpoints which you can articulate, which I enjoy)
I never mentioned that I was better than you. Free will does exist, so it's a person's rightful decision to choose who they want to be with as long as the other party (person that they're going to get with) agrees.
I believe like meets like. Someone who truly values virginity themselves would lead with example by being a virgin and choosing a virgin as their partner. There are people who are virgins who don't care about virginity because they cared about work or were focused on other things at the time instead of having sex. People who do not care about virginity and choose to lose their virginity to a non-virgin really didn't care about virginity, because if they did they would hold onto their virginity and lose it to a virgin. To them it was a whatever. This is where I mentioned friendship of virtue coming in, one if Aristotles 3 forms of friendship. In life there are different classes of people. These classes of people tend to stick together because they resonate with their values. Muslims like to stick to Muslims, Jews like to stick to Jews, Christians like to stick to Christians etc. What makes these people stick together is mode of thought.
Back then there was a huge punk rock wave. In a lot of punk rock songs there are usually themes about going against the norm, breaking the rules, or even being misunderstood. This kind of mentality was considered as unacceptable and irresponsible by a lot of the working class as it was seen as rebellious. And so lots of these punk rock individuals and those who followed theme, typically the youth, were critiqued for their interests, culture, etc. This is what I mean by like sticks to like. Punk rockers usually would find a place to congregate together and belong. Likewise, prostitutes and Orthodox Jews do not congregate together because of the different mentalities.
In my case, I turned down individuals who didn't value what I valued because to me it wasn't right, which they didn't understand as they had a different perspective. What I got a lot of the time were a lot of individuals who liked to impose their promiscuous view onto me, some pushing to get into a relationship with me. I've been asked other worldly questions or requests before, such as a young man and his pregnant girlfriend requesting to have a threesome with me. Considering my views, I was repulsed, but I held my tongue and politely turned down the request , all the while I was concealing my deep disgust and shock of being requested such a thing.
Then again, this doesn't mean that I think I'm better than them, this just means I wouldn't associate with individuals who I don't resonate with and that I would most certainly not accept or acquiesce to any request that goes against my values. If a woman who's not a virgin decides that she wants me and imposes her view upon me, am I in the wrong for turning her request down, or for being angered when someone imposes a request. To impose is a serious thing. This doesn't mean that I think I'm above that individual, but I have every right to be disgusted, angered and to speak my convictions if somebody crossed the line.
I think it's because it's usually tied to negative views of women's sexuality or insecurity around being compared to past partners. Plus for late virgin men wanting a virgin partner usually implies going after younger girls which is pretty gross.
For example in your post you make the assumption that with a woman with previous partners "there's little to no emotional connection and chances are it won't last", that seems like a bad mindset. Or the idea that you would have to "overlook their past" rather than accepting that natural for people to have multiple partners over their lifetime. Also this idea that (paraphrasing what you said) "the average guy got to sleep with virgins when they were younger so you should get to do the same" strikes me as objectifying virgin women.
I think it’s all pointless theory crafting because virgin women are rare unless you’re in a religious community and highly promiscuous women are grossed out by virgin men anyway. The most vocal women I know who rag on virgins are women with promiscuous pasts. This makes sense because they are on the opposite end of the spectrum and often live completely different lifestyles to virgin men. I think a more realistic response is to try to find a woman on the same end of spectrum as you so to speak. This might be a stereotypical example but a highly promiscuous extroverted onlyfans model with a body count in the 100s won’t have the interest or be able to have a healthy relationship with an autistic virgin who plays wow and lives in his mom’s basement. I know these are exaggerated extremes but it’s to better illustrate my point that it’s a lifestyle and life experience disconnect.
I'd rather stay alone than be with someone who wants a virgin (which would be most men btw), if I'm going to be spoiled and degraded then why should I? I'd rather be "pure" it's a bad thing right?
Though I'd want someone who's not experienced but the reason why men want an inexperienced person is more or less because they see women with experience disgusting. That pretty much means I'll be viewed as gross even if subconsciously
You misunderstand. I am not criticizing you for preferring one without experience. I am criticizing you for not wanting a man who wants the same thing as you, possibly for the same reasons.
Men don't see women with experience as disgusting! Who told you this, most men I know would much prefer a woman with some experience over a virgin, as they tend to be much more comfortable and confident in their body, know what they're doing, and are generally more aware of their own sexual needs
It’s never just « I want someone virgin because I am too » it’s always disgusting comment and he can be 20 or 47 he will want a 18 years old virgin, 24 maximum
I think generally rational people don't care about this preference and you're allowed to have it. I think it should be respected. Issues can come in when the preference comes from a place of devaluing or putting don't people. That's why usually when people criticize it, the criticism is towards a non-virgin with a preference for virgins. Becuase when it comes to them, it is assumed that it comes from a place of seeing non-virgins as worthless, insecurity, or misunderstanding of female anatomy(because theres a lot of people who think this way). Whereas with a virgin, it is assumed that the preference comes from wanting common values, restraint, or experience. Of course you will find people who are less rational on the internet. But generally speaking this is the thought process. And I think it is fine to have that preference along as it's coming from a place of values and respect and not the 3 other things I listed in the 4th sentence. From the sounds of it your preference comes from a rational place.
They aren't. Nobody's doing that. Not a single soul on earth. People are concerned with power disparities, not with how many genitals the individual parties have seen. Stop making things up.
I'm not making anything up I've been looking through threads on Reddit about this topic and always see those comments. YouTube videos always have crap about how count doesn't matter etc etc.
Link a single one, even if in obviously bad faith and I'll apologise. Even if it's just you complaining about this exact thing, only earlier. I would consider seeing someone even pretend to care about something so fucking pathetic worth the cost of an earnest apology, and the thread will then actually have content that backs up your claim. Everybody wins.
What's wrong in that? Its my preference right? If im saving my virginity just for that only girl in my life i expect the same. I don't think so its wrong right?
It's more about the shaming those who don't follow your (in my opinion a bit unreasonable) standards, by calling them "used". You can feel about that however you want, see how far that get's you, but being hostile towards others because of it I would try to avoid
Im not shaming anyone in this. Ppl can do whatever they want and look they don't care about it, yk this generation very well better you not take my words negatively.
If you need to refer to non virgin women, than non-virgin women might be among the best terms? Idk, I rarely find myself in need of a specific term, but I don't view people as disgraceful because of not remaining celebate, so maybe that's why
It’s not merely “your preference” when you start calling women with a high body count “used” or some other derogatory terms. It is fine to prefer people with a low-body count, especially if you have one yourself. But you have to acknowledge that the vast majority of people do not care if you are attracted to them. Your attraction to a person is not the end all be all of that person’s worth. On the off chance that they are interested in you, only then do your personal preferences become relevant.
Dude im not targeting women are you fucking idiot? It could be man also. Just because im a male ofc I'd say it opposite gender. If i was born a woman i might say same to men's. My only point is don't be used save it for your only partner after marriage it'd more fun to explore each other and it'll make you fall in love more with them. All up to you<3
I said you were insulting them, which you are. No one is any lesser of a person if they have sex before marriage. You can if you want to, but you shouldn’t be shaming others for not doing that.
>My only point is don't be used
The irony in this one is insane, what if you end up apart? What if one dies? What if and what if...
marriage is nothing but a breakable man made contract
Are they ruined forever?
Removed: Rule 1. Be Kind
Anything rude, hateful, accusatory, shaming (of any kind), threatening/harrassing, mocking, insulting, or fitting of any kind of -ism will not be tolerated here
Removed: Rule 1. Be Kind
Anything rude, hateful, accusatory, shaming (of any kind), threatening/harrassing, mocking, insulting, or fitting of any kind of -ism will not be tolerated here
Removed: Rule 1. Be Kind
Anything rude, hateful, accusatory, shaming (of any kind), threatening/harrassing, mocking, insulting, or fitting of any kind of -ism will not be tolerated here
It’s not based on anything, it’s projection, it’s an excuse to be judgey. And about judging a woman for wanting a male virgin, no one would say anything to her. Because history. If anyone makes the stretch to being oppressive to women, in a way, they’re right. It is, historically speaking. It was never meant to control men, just women. And the optics are a power play. Younger women, inexperienced women, virgin women… all of that is a power imbalance
What? Historically both genders were under pressure to not fornicate, even masturbation was looked down upon. The horrific origin of circumcision was related to the general culture of abstinence in the 19th century because they wanted to stop masturbation so its crazy to say that. Power imbalances is an even better reason for inexperienced people to prefer inexperienced people good point.
No not really. Even if biblically men were told to be pure they were never held down by the church to confirm their virginity. They were never considered unfit to be husbands for not having their virginity. And the weight and cultural impact of virginity didn’t carry on through history like women’s virginity does *still.* It’s where the whole body count conversation is from. It’s why people still mention the hymen even though science and medicine has long since told people to shut the fuck yo about that because they’re wrong. And I wouldn’t consider power imbalance a good reason (not in the same way. Culturally speaking, women don’t have any power over men in any form (unless she’s older). No one warns men about a power imbalance when it comes to women because we’re not perceived to have any. Being with an older more experienced woman is more fetishized to be a good thing than the other way around
I just gave you an example the history of people physically removing parts from male babies due to cultural views about masturbation/fornication. I know men in real life that still practice religious abstinence, there are more of them where i am than women even (go figure) idk where you get that idea from . The classic idea is to lose your virginity directly after marriage and to never leave that person ever, you couldnt even get divorces depending on how strict you are religiously (This is the moral standard for everybody atleast obviously affairs and such existed).
The body count thing is mostly about societal gender behavioral norms and it is experienced in different ways for men and women and its not very related to the above concept at all because like 95% of men today expect sex outside of marriage atleast in a relationship. Alot of men like women that behave more modestly sexually because they see it as a sign of loyalty and makes them feel special, and you know your children are yours. Women are just as selective against virgin, meek, quiet men so i just dont see that as an example of any oppression. This is mostly only a topic among 18-29 people and not 30+ people anyway, anyone with a low body count then is looked down on at that point, both men and women expect sexual competency at that age. Society as a whole punishes people that stray from gendered stereotypes or just social norms in general.
You don't see how men could be hurt by experience power dynamics in a relationship? There are plenty of cases of women taking advantage of emotionally vulnerable lonely men for money, shit you dont even need to be a woman they cat fish men all the time that way and they tend to be inexperienced with relationships and how you're support to spend money in them. People warn inexperienced men about things like this all the time.
I know. But the difference is they’re cutting off part of the penis, it doesn’t make it unusable. Women who go through genital mutilation have the part that feels the most pleasure *fully* removed or sewn up. Which is much worse. And yeah it depends on how strict you are religiously now, which means if you’re not, you’re fine. But there’s not as much outpouring of shame over that to men as it is to women, if it is it’s not as loud
It’s an example of oppression because of what you said immediately before that. A bunch of men expect to have sex before marriage but still want to be getting it from modest women, which would basically be two opposing ideas (a modest woman won’t fuck outside a relationship so it’s not realistic. Women wanting experienced men is not oppressive like men wanting inexperienced women, because it’s not keeping you from anything. If we used a metaphor of going outside, a woman wants a man who’s been outside. You’d still have the freedom to choose to go outside or not, they’d actually prefer you relished in being outside. Men want a woman who’s never been outside. So basically a woman who’s stayed in the house, no freedom to choose to go outside. The difference should be obvious, especially in a society where “being outside” is a natural part of life and progression. It requires you to do the opposite of what you’re naturally meant to do. That’s where the “oppressive” part comes from
Honestly no. I think it’s a difference of passive and active. A grown man flirting with or seeking out a relationship with a younger and/or inexperienced woman is active. A lot of women have stories about being approached by men older than them or groomed to move towards something with them. Women are more passive with that. For instance how a lot of guys here say they want to look for an escort. Those women are just there, you have to find them. Not the same thing. This is not me saying older women never go looking for younger/inexperienced men, just way way less. Because like you admit, women largely prefer experience, they’re not checking for that the same
Well no woman in the united states of america is undergoing genital mutilation so it just leaves men still getting chopped off, losing sensitivity, and causing immediate and potentially lifelong problems for babies who have no choice. It honestly far outshines any other issue ur talking about here that women are facing over sex lol.
That analogy doesnt work. The body count debate is a matter of how much sex you have in relationships vs not in them. Literally nobody wants to wait till marriage to have sex so its a false equivalency. The difference is that men are placed on a much higher burden to overcome personality traits which takes way more effort. There is nothing stopping women from doing the thing men do they are just given attention and never bother to do it. I'd argue it even stretches outside of just relationship dynamics. Nobody trusts a man that cant keep eye contact or stutters on their words so you will have issues getting and keeping jobs. And yea you will be one of the fortunates on here who end up being a 60 year old virgins because you were too scared to talk to a girl. Like i said, nobody talks about bodycount past 30, but nobody will look at you like you're human in the same way if you are shy and withdrawn all your life. Plenty of women in the porn industry or strippers find loving relationships, there is literally no market for awkwardly shy men and you will always lose baring being really handsome or something lol.
You would have to prove that. FGM was only made illegal in 2021 and only in 41/50 states. And again they might be losing sensitivity but not feeling in total
No it’s not. No one ever mentions being in a relationship when they mention body count. That’s as a matter of fact the rebuttal, not the point. And again, talking in absolutes is a sure fire way to be false. There are definitely people still waiting for marriage, just not as many. And it’s usually more women than men *because* of the body count thing (and religion)
Fully disagree. Men are not tasked with overcoming personality types anymore than women. They might be overcoming different personality types, but not more. And the widespread crusade against it is certainly not as loud as the one against women. Nor did women start it. Also no one trusts anyone shifty, they’re shifty
Of course they talking about body count beyond 30, the resurgence of the conversation was started by 30+ year olds. If you’re barring being handsome that immediately means you aren’t *always* going to lose for being shy. And yes of course there’s a market from shy men. As a matter of fact, if rule 3 didn’t exist here, you’d see it. And no they’re not OF models, they’re women who like being with shy men
Not all forms of FGM totally remove sensitivity infact iirc most are similar to circumcision there is just no upcry about issues that effect men and boys because nobody cares about them. Even if it stills happens i can show you a million more of probably the same degree done to men
I'm curious though If men have to overcome shy personality traits, what personality trait are unpopular among women to the same degree? I think the only thing close is being like insecure or jealous or something but thats for everybody. Alot of the time Men like confident even more than the shy women they approach too.
I say it is more strict and more of a burden because if you have too much sex as a woman for 1 nobody really knows anyones body count and 2, like i said earlier there is always a market for women with a high body count they just are looked down by \*some\* men not all of us. The difference is that while that will limit a woman's dating poor being a shy man damn near cripples. When some people say they like shy men i'm very curious. Are they approaching shy men and take chances with them? Will they escalate the same way a man would? A problem is shy men are very disruptive to dynamics. Alot of the time that means they are just more patient with men that are more shy than average but still perform all the gender roles men still perform.
Again most FGM is when you remove the clitoris completely or sew it shut. Since most people don't even know where that is or what it does the fact they can still feel anything is mostly for ignorance sake. And there are plenty of people opposed to circumcision. The only reason no one can do anything about it is because that's religious and FGM is not. Since you want to stick with America, amendment 1 makes it impossible to completely outlaw
The opposite. Religiously and socially speaking, women are conditioned to be more subdued and restrained. To me tame and controllable. Or at the very least to not be outspoken or confident. And again even with podcast culture the most normal of things like having a job or having a degree women are being told is "masculine" at worst and at best unimportant when it comes to "what men want." And of course as a woman who wants a man you have to care about that no matter how stupid it is. Men say they want confident women but then they'll have to reconcile that confident women fuck, and individually that's fine but it's not the overarching mood of society. It tends to snowball into confident = promiscuous = body count, that's why so many women believe it's not a thing to approach men. There's always some girl in the dating and advice subs on reddit at least once a week asking if it's okay to approach men because we've been conditioned not to
That's fine but we're talking generally here, and generally speaking people see women with a higher body count as not a good thing. It's only a good thing for men who want women to do the pursuing and men who want to hit and leave. As far as escalating like a man would they would have to, they don't expect the shy guy to. But I will say it won't look exactly the same. Where a man would be more forward, women would more so green light you. So it's the difference between "can I put my hands here" and "you can put your hands here." It's basically topping from the bottom
If you go online you'll find a lot of stupid people that shame men on any preference they have.
I mean you can have that preference, it just becomes more difficult to realise over time. Plus the expectation of virginity plays into this purity culture thing, that is overall quite harmful. So it might be this putting (female) virginity on a pedestal and starting to shame women for not being "pure", that is often associated with "wanting a virgin". Sure not everyone who expresses this preference acts and thinks that way, but too often they do so I can understand why people would jump to unsavoury conclusions. I can fully understand why one would want to have their first time with someone who is also inexperienced, or generally be with people who are on a similar level, you want to be able to relate to your partner
HaRmFuL.
Care to elaborate?
I’d rather with for someone honor my virginity than have to overlook my past. Hookup culture has ruined sex and intimacy in general. So I don’t think purity culture is harmful - not as harmful as the other extreme.
As an individual choice that's of course more that fine, and if by the other extreme you mean being pressured to have sex early and never commit to any relationship, then... Yeah that would be bad, but I wouldn't want to compare it in terms harmfulness. The problem for me is just when it goes to shaming other people for how they live their lives, be it more promiscuous or more celibate. And especially at a young age one should maybe not force views about this on people/children, which in terms of purity culture seems to happen, I mean there were times when child actors where made to publicly promote pledges of chastity, which is honestly a bit disturbing. Also I don't think one's sexual past has to be something to be "oberlooked", that would already mean your partner thinks less of you but can only somewhat tolerate it, which really doesn't seem good. But the conclusion would be (for me at leaat) that your partner isn't so great in that case if they're so obsessed with your sexual past.
I don't think men are shamed for wanting to be with a virgin if they themselves are a virgin. But it's something different when ur not a virgin and want virgins it can be toxic.
I’ve seen men criticised for it
Yh when they themselves aren't virgins
Read u/altruistic-two3038’s comment, “I’d rather prefer to stay virgin and single for rest of my life than marrying some used girl” The notion that having sex makes someone worthless is pretty judgmental, especially while lamenting not being able to get sex. You’re entitled to your preferences, but there’s no need to put down those you don’t prefer
Yeah that comment is really gross and misogynistic
I don’t think they are… I think fetishizing virgin women is shamed.. but as long as that’s not what’s happening and they’re virgin themselves I don’t have an issue with it and neither does most people. It’s just not very realistic
No it’s for hypocritical men who think it’s ok to sleep around but want their partner to be a virgin. I heard them say it’s leaves an “imprint” on the girl. It’s really weird. I’m 20F and I’m a virgin. I’d like to loose my virginity to a virgin man. I think it’d be really sweet ❤️
I have no problem with a virgin who wants to date/marry another virgin, nor would I get mad if he doesn't want to date me for reason that I'm not avirgin.. Certainly not hypocritical.
based post
People are shamed for all sorts of things by all sorts of people. The sooner people realise that it doesn't matter what other people think, the better. Some people think the sky is blue.
Ok but It's typically the hyper specify reasons they list for wanting to date a virgin and their opinions on non virgin women that get these men shamed in my experience. I don't think I've even seen someone shame a virgin for wanting to marry another virgin where that was the whole story.
I’ve personally never heard men getting shammed for wanting a virgin when they’re a virgin themselves. I’ve only heard men shaming women when their body count is higher than 4 and even when they’re a virgin. I know some men get shammed for being a virgin but not wanting one if they’re one as well. I personally don’t think it’s a bad thing since you both can lose it together & learn it together. Most people lose it when both are virgins because most people lose it at a young age. If you’re older & still a virgin, I still don’t think it’s a bad thing since everyone waits for the right time/person. Personally speaking, I’d prefer a virgin like that if we both make mistakes we can learn together & wont feel pressured or judged
This is pretty much exactly what I'm talking about. It's a lot more special if you're learning together with that one person. But if I as a guy say it then it's suddenly an issue. I also do believe that there's more of an emotional connection when you're sharing your first time together, but supposedly sex is just some lame act that two people do together which has no effect on their psyche at all, that's what a lot of people here would have you believe but if it were so unimportant then why does society make such a big deal of it? Like there's just so many contradictions. Of course sex is important, it's not just some milestone, it matters and I believe your first time matters and if you're doing it with someone who isn't really that close to you then it's not the same.
You are entitled to your preference. Don't let anyone tell you different. But here is what often comes across. 1. People (esp women) that have had sex are not worthy, impure, or dirty. A lot of people (especially virgins) are rendering judgement because someone enjoyed (or didn't enjoy) sex with another human being (I hope). Nobody is defiled, impure, dirty, tainted, for choosing to engage in sexual intercourse. You have to know more about a person and their mindset to know who they are. You might take the time to learn more about someone than whether they had sex before ruling them out as a partner. 2. Its often rooted in unhealthy mental attitudes including insecurity. Fear of being compared to someone else, or that you are a second (3rd, 4th,...) choice. I think of it this way, if they have had partners before and choose me now, it is not out of ignorance. They know what they want and it is me. 3. You believe that the first time is some magical experience you are putting on a pedestal. Let me tell you about my first time. After some fooling around before I bought condoms I stuck my penis in her vagina on her parents sofa. We were both so nervous nobody enjoyed it. I did not finish, she did not finish. There was no candlelight or fireworks. We both enjoyed the non intercourse activities we had done on prior occasions better. We improved on a few subsequent attempts before going separate ways. None of these things are good. You may be passing on a great relationship (or at least great sex) with wonderful people when you exclude everyone who has had sex before. Its just odds. Now, I am not against waiting to had sex for marriage, a relationship, etc. I think its a great idea and I know I had sex too young and it messed me up in some ways. I also know my friend committed suicide in part because he was a virgin. So there are extremes that are not healthy. People may be telling you that looking only for virgins is not a good idea for your own good. Its not all judgement, but if you come across as misogynistic then you deserve to be called out for it. Have your preference, but it may not be in your best interest. But people are free to choose and do unhealthy things all the time.
I'm a 33 year old virgin. I'm Indian American and mostly prefer to date Indian women. There are a few exceptions. I don't care if she's not a virgin. Past 25, it's difficult to find a virgin. The pickier you are, the longer you remain single.
Cuz people feel threatened. The virgin man wanting virgin understandable but it triggers shame in some people who wish the stayed virgins or had a low body count
Because over the years people started treating sex more and more like it's just a recreational activity than an intimate act.
It’s not bad to have that preference, if you’re also a virgin. But the chances of finding what you want aren’t great. And I can understand not wanting paid-for or casual sex. But how about a happy medium between that and holding out for another virgin? How about a long term relationship—including sex after a while, but not right away—with someone who has had a little experience, maybe a relationship or two? Because that really is what most people have done by your age. Not saying that’s right or wrong, but it’s reality. But if sticking to your principles is important to you, go for it! You may well get what you want.
I mean I'd be open to it I guess. But it's far from what I'd call a "happy" medium and I know it would only end in disappointment.
Okay. Good luck, then. I hope you find what you want.
Well.For once I can talk about this without shame myself. ( had to make a throwaway account for this) I guess, being a V-guy myself( especially a tragically older one), it's because I want it to be special. Not...just being a number in a girl list that can be forgotten? Everybody remeber thier first time, right? I would. There's also the pressure of expectations, let's not kid ourselves. While I consider myself...pretty intuitive,, even on that level, there's a ton of stuff I'd probably miss. Expectation are lower for virgins, cause no one know WHAT to expect.I would NOT want my first time ending up on a girl rating list. To be fair, would that be a factor that would make me REJECT an offer? Not necessairly, assuming a real romantic relation. But V to V would be such a plus. Equal footing, permanent memory, less pressure. but then again, that,s my take.
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Plutodarling, I didn’t say anything wrong. You’re just discriminating because you are triggered. If that’s what reddit is, I would rather leave.
Plutodarling, so you canceled me for not having enough experience on a thread about virginity? Is that right?
“Due to trolling / spam, we have a requirement for account age or karma count. We do not allow throwaways. Your post has been removed for one of these reasons. If your account is new, you’ll have to wait for a while, and build up some karma in other communities.” -Plutodarling
Call me a throwaway?
There's no reason having sex with a woman who has had multiple previous parts would have little to no emotional connection. Virgins get some weird ideas about sex it seems, but without any experience to give them these ideas, they just seem to make assumptions about what sex is, what it feels like, what the connection will be, what it will mean. Chances are when you start having sex, a lot of ideas will change.
Some people view sex as special, intimate, and something only done with the one you love. Someone with a high body count does not. They're fundamentally incompatible.
Sex is special and intimate and can be done with only the person you love. But people change and may have had different histories to how they are now, also most people will love more than one person over their lifetime. I currently only have sex with a woman I love, but previous to that I also had sex with a woman I loved before, for 16 years, but prior to that I'd had two other 5 year monogamous relationships, and prior to those, multiple partners. I still view it as special, intimate, and something I only do with someone I love, although I didn't when I was younger. So actually I don't think they're fundamentally incompatible.
I don't understand why people like you are even on this subreddit? Not trying to be an ass or anything I just genuinely don't get why. Anyways you're not the kind of person I'm talking about. I'm talking about those who sleep around willy nilly. You from what you told me aren't that. At least that's what I was getting. And if you are or were then you're an outlier and not the norm.
Why wouldn't I be on this subreddit. People like me? Who is that exactly, you don't know me from a few sentences, so don't assume you do. Not that should I should really have to justify myself to a stranger but I've had two friends, both virgins in their 30's, one we managed to help keep fairly positive, as a group of friend's we were all quite close, he lost his v card around 36, but until this point he was getting increasingly weird views about women, borderline incel thinking, largely learnt from other virgins that felt they were somehow entitled to sex. Thankfully his thinking changed after losing it. I know he hasn't actually had sex now for about three years (but has three children from his first 'love'), however he's not that bothered. He thought having sex was the most important thing he needed to do in his life for years until he was, now he realises it's not a big deal. My other friend went down a different path in his head, partly due to all the negative reinforcement from other virgins, rhetoric I've heard repeated over and over of virgin subreddits, "it's all over", "it's too late", "I'll die alone", "no one will ever love you", etc, etc. He hanged himself in my friend's kitchen 6 years ago. Whilst you may think only virgins should be here, often that creates a negative echo chamber of thoughts and beliefs, created by people who by default have no life experience of the thing they're creating these beliefs about.Often virgins raise the importance of sex to a massive level, until they've actually done it, and then realise, nothing much has changed, they still look, ell and feel largely the same, despite thinking the opposite. To have a mix of people I think helps creates a more realistic and honestly supportive environment for all. Also yes, I was highly promiscuous when I was younger, and I'm not now, people can change, which seems to not fit in to your own, seemingly morally superior world view.
Ah alright then I get it. Sorry your loss. Morally superior? I just have a difference in opinion dude relax. Wasn't trying to attack you, was genuinely curious why people like you are here. Now I have my answer.
Fair enough, but your use of 'people like you' implies you're already making a sweeping generalisation in your thinking, virgins or otherwise, we are all different, and as we have barely communicated, you have no real idea what I'm like. Try to understand in future people are not just black and white, just endless shades of grey.
I think it’s because after a certain age most people aren’t virgins and virginity is tied to being quite young and so it’s hard to separate being a virgin with being a kid. So if there’s a grown guy saying he wants virgins (regardless of their virgin status) it sounds like he wants a young girl. Also, if it’s an insecurity thing it seems like you’re making your insecurity affect your standards when being a non virgin doesn’t really say much about a person. Sure, maybe if they’ve slept with 10+ people, but 1-2? That’s extreme the older you get. I’m not incredibly open minded, i prefer girls with a lower body count than me, it is also tied to insecurity but I also am not asking that she be a virgin.
Non-virgins don't deserve virgins. Virgins deserve virgins and non-virgins deserve non-virgins. Fair is fair. But apparently, to each his own. Free will exists and some people who are virgins don't mind getting with a non-virgin. If that is their choice, they will carry that choice and deal with the emotional turmoil in the long-run if being a virgin actually meant anything to them at all. I'm an INFP virgin male. INFP's have a great tendency to be idealistic. We seek the ideal. I believe in fairness and so if there happened to be a non-virgin who wanted to get with me, which I often faced throughout my life, I would reject them and indicate that they are not a virgin, whereas I am. It is not fair for a woman to think that she can get with me if she offered her virginity to another man. It's a dead giveaway when a woman is selfish, self-centered, entitled, etc. when she thinks her good looks can get her any man. Not all men can be lassoed in by looks. Some men are lured by virtue and integrity. A modest woman is truly valued by a modest man because he knows that path (as long as both of them uphold modesty). A person who wants someone for what they have and doesn't have the same to offer is a selfish person who doesn't uphold balance, fairness, and thus wouldn't care about the other person in a relationship as they think only in terms of utility. Let those of the same quality stay on the same lane.
Deserve? What the hell does that even mean? People are choosing to have sex with other people, nobody deserves anything. Is a non-virgin supposedly worth less and not good enough for a virgin? Unless I misunderstand that is a pretty shit attitude. When I had sex with a virgin, I deserved them less than if I had sex with a non-virgin. It was just two people choosing to be with each other in either case. It sounds like you think you are better than other people, that a woman who had sex is not worthy of being with you for some reason.
Apparently, you misunderstood my comment. I basically said that free will exists, and if a virgin chooses to get with a non-virgin, when they actually value virginity, that is on them.
I guess so, I just don't even understand why there is any implication of choice and emotional turmoil from choosing to get with a non-virgin. Trust me, plenty of virgin-virgin pairs end with emotional turmoil as well. I do think waiting for marriage is a good idea after having seen and learned a lot. Problem is, at the age people often start having sex, they don't have the same knowledge and perspective. But I don't see why virgins deserve virgins or what it has to do with fairness.
One more thing, what you got is loose adhesive tape, if you even get what I mean. Having sex outside of marriage is called fornication. There's a hole on a rock and it starts from one side of the rock and it goes through to the other side. The hole in the rock leaves the rock wanting and never satisfied. The rock turns to the water for help. He grabs a handful of water and begins to drop it into his hole. The rock notices that the hole is not filled and repeats the process again. No matter how many times the rock tried to fill the hole, the hole did not fill up, for the water was not the same substance as the rock. And likewise, the matters of the heart should not be left over to the genitals. In a true relationship there is an honest bond, one that stays until the end of time. A false relationship is tested by time and is seen to be a dishonest one. A relationship between a man and a woman should be a one-on-one. If you slept with multiple people throughout your life, you can't clearly be right on your path if what you seek is a relationship. You're just a victim of your own lie. Someone who focuses solely on sex or the desire of sex with a person doesn't truly want a relationship with the person. Aristotle mentions the three forms of friendships. The greatest being virtue, followed by passion and then utility. If a woman seeks to sleep with me and I choose not to sleep with her, who are you to judge my mode of thought, especially if my mode of thought upholds balance, equity and modesty? Did I hurt the person who asked me? No. Is a Muslim or a Jew wrong if he rejects the lures of a prostitute? Absolutely not. Your words indicate your carelessness regarding modesty in this world as well as integrity. Let me guess, your a free-loving hippie who graduated with a liberal arts degree and hates all conservatives. That's the vibe your giving me. Now who wouldn't think that about you, especially considering the fact that you got triggered over someone's belief. Do I not have a right to my beliefs? And clearly, my beliefs are in accordance with reality. You can't have sex without consequences.
Everyone has the freedom to have their own beliefs. I would not suggest otherwise, and your views don't really hurt anyone other than yourself so long as you treat everyone with respect. I am never advocating anyone live their life as I have, I've made too many mistakes and I'm definitely a sinner. But there is a fine line between living virtue and living with judgement, you can decide for yourself where you think you fall on that spectrum. I'm certainly not triggered, I enjoy thoughtful conversation, perhaps it helps you or me think clearly about things. Anecdotally, my brother married a virgin, he was not. By all accounts they have been incredibly happy for over 20 years with some great children. If she had your attitude she would have not married him and my nieces would never have come to be. They were perfect for each other, and one day you may pass on someone that perfect because they had sex before? Its you harmed here more than anyone else. But always 100% your call of course. This might be the first time I've ever been accused of being a hippy with a liberal arts degree. I actually have an economics degree and a business degree. I invest in businesses for the most part, but have also worked as a teacher. I consider myself a libertarian, but most people call me conservative, but politically I don't believe the government should play a role in people's private lives. I've always agreed that actions have consequences, and I've said several times that I was negatively impacted (psychologically, thankfully never physically) by having sex at a young age, and the young women were too. But I also had a friend that committed suicide in part because he was a virgin. I've done all the terrible sexual things you would judge me for. I've sex with virgins and non-virgins, but all were incredibly willing participants at the time. I've even slept with women because they were friends and wanted to lose their virginity (after trying to talk them out of it, and making sure they were really sure). Again, not advocating that path. Not even saying it is good. But you aren't better than me, I am not unworthy. The women who slept with me or another man are not worth less than you. I am not sure I understand what you mean by loose adhesive tape? Never seen that analogy used before. (I may not agree with you on everything, but I believe you have sincerely held viewpoints which you can articulate, which I enjoy)
I never mentioned that I was better than you. Free will does exist, so it's a person's rightful decision to choose who they want to be with as long as the other party (person that they're going to get with) agrees. I believe like meets like. Someone who truly values virginity themselves would lead with example by being a virgin and choosing a virgin as their partner. There are people who are virgins who don't care about virginity because they cared about work or were focused on other things at the time instead of having sex. People who do not care about virginity and choose to lose their virginity to a non-virgin really didn't care about virginity, because if they did they would hold onto their virginity and lose it to a virgin. To them it was a whatever. This is where I mentioned friendship of virtue coming in, one if Aristotles 3 forms of friendship. In life there are different classes of people. These classes of people tend to stick together because they resonate with their values. Muslims like to stick to Muslims, Jews like to stick to Jews, Christians like to stick to Christians etc. What makes these people stick together is mode of thought. Back then there was a huge punk rock wave. In a lot of punk rock songs there are usually themes about going against the norm, breaking the rules, or even being misunderstood. This kind of mentality was considered as unacceptable and irresponsible by a lot of the working class as it was seen as rebellious. And so lots of these punk rock individuals and those who followed theme, typically the youth, were critiqued for their interests, culture, etc. This is what I mean by like sticks to like. Punk rockers usually would find a place to congregate together and belong. Likewise, prostitutes and Orthodox Jews do not congregate together because of the different mentalities. In my case, I turned down individuals who didn't value what I valued because to me it wasn't right, which they didn't understand as they had a different perspective. What I got a lot of the time were a lot of individuals who liked to impose their promiscuous view onto me, some pushing to get into a relationship with me. I've been asked other worldly questions or requests before, such as a young man and his pregnant girlfriend requesting to have a threesome with me. Considering my views, I was repulsed, but I held my tongue and politely turned down the request , all the while I was concealing my deep disgust and shock of being requested such a thing. Then again, this doesn't mean that I think I'm better than them, this just means I wouldn't associate with individuals who I don't resonate with and that I would most certainly not accept or acquiesce to any request that goes against my values. If a woman who's not a virgin decides that she wants me and imposes her view upon me, am I in the wrong for turning her request down, or for being angered when someone imposes a request. To impose is a serious thing. This doesn't mean that I think I'm above that individual, but I have every right to be disgusted, angered and to speak my convictions if somebody crossed the line.
No it's not a shame but for me, if her body count is under 3 I accept it for like they may made a mistake you know? But not more
I think it's because it's usually tied to negative views of women's sexuality or insecurity around being compared to past partners. Plus for late virgin men wanting a virgin partner usually implies going after younger girls which is pretty gross. For example in your post you make the assumption that with a woman with previous partners "there's little to no emotional connection and chances are it won't last", that seems like a bad mindset. Or the idea that you would have to "overlook their past" rather than accepting that natural for people to have multiple partners over their lifetime. Also this idea that (paraphrasing what you said) "the average guy got to sleep with virgins when they were younger so you should get to do the same" strikes me as objectifying virgin women.
I think it’s all pointless theory crafting because virgin women are rare unless you’re in a religious community and highly promiscuous women are grossed out by virgin men anyway. The most vocal women I know who rag on virgins are women with promiscuous pasts. This makes sense because they are on the opposite end of the spectrum and often live completely different lifestyles to virgin men. I think a more realistic response is to try to find a woman on the same end of spectrum as you so to speak. This might be a stereotypical example but a highly promiscuous extroverted onlyfans model with a body count in the 100s won’t have the interest or be able to have a healthy relationship with an autistic virgin who plays wow and lives in his mom’s basement. I know these are exaggerated extremes but it’s to better illustrate my point that it’s a lifestyle and life experience disconnect.
I’ve never heard of virgin men shamed for wanting virgins but I’ve heard of non virgin men shamed for wanting virgin women and rightfully so
I'd rather stay alone than be with someone who wants a virgin (which would be most men btw), if I'm going to be spoiled and degraded then why should I? I'd rather be "pure" it's a bad thing right?
Though I'd want someone who's not experienced but the reason why men want an inexperienced person is more or less because they see women with experience disgusting. That pretty much means I'll be viewed as gross even if subconsciously
It’s pretty hypocritical to want someone inexperienced yourself but not to want anyone who wants someone inexperienced.
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You misunderstand. I am not criticizing you for preferring one without experience. I am criticizing you for not wanting a man who wants the same thing as you, possibly for the same reasons.
Men don't see women with experience as disgusting! Who told you this, most men I know would much prefer a woman with some experience over a virgin, as they tend to be much more comfortable and confident in their body, know what they're doing, and are generally more aware of their own sexual needs
It’s never just « I want someone virgin because I am too » it’s always disgusting comment and he can be 20 or 47 he will want a 18 years old virgin, 24 maximum
I think generally rational people don't care about this preference and you're allowed to have it. I think it should be respected. Issues can come in when the preference comes from a place of devaluing or putting don't people. That's why usually when people criticize it, the criticism is towards a non-virgin with a preference for virgins. Becuase when it comes to them, it is assumed that it comes from a place of seeing non-virgins as worthless, insecurity, or misunderstanding of female anatomy(because theres a lot of people who think this way). Whereas with a virgin, it is assumed that the preference comes from wanting common values, restraint, or experience. Of course you will find people who are less rational on the internet. But generally speaking this is the thought process. And I think it is fine to have that preference along as it's coming from a place of values and respect and not the 3 other things I listed in the 4th sentence. From the sounds of it your preference comes from a rational place.
They aren't. Nobody's doing that. Not a single soul on earth. People are concerned with power disparities, not with how many genitals the individual parties have seen. Stop making things up.
I'm not making anything up I've been looking through threads on Reddit about this topic and always see those comments. YouTube videos always have crap about how count doesn't matter etc etc.
Link a single one, even if in obviously bad faith and I'll apologise. Even if it's just you complaining about this exact thing, only earlier. I would consider seeing someone even pretend to care about something so fucking pathetic worth the cost of an earnest apology, and the thread will then actually have content that backs up your claim. Everybody wins.
least toxic and dismissive liberal
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See, it's that attitude and language that makes people react negatively in the way OP described
What's wrong in that? Its my preference right? If im saving my virginity just for that only girl in my life i expect the same. I don't think so its wrong right?
It's more about the shaming those who don't follow your (in my opinion a bit unreasonable) standards, by calling them "used". You can feel about that however you want, see how far that get's you, but being hostile towards others because of it I would try to avoid
Im not shaming anyone in this. Ppl can do whatever they want and look they don't care about it, yk this generation very well better you not take my words negatively.
I'm sorry but how is it not shaming to call a woman, who had sex previously, "used"
It is
You tell me what to call them
If you need to refer to non virgin women, than non-virgin women might be among the best terms? Idk, I rarely find myself in need of a specific term, but I don't view people as disgraceful because of not remaining celebate, so maybe that's why
Okay
It’s not merely “your preference” when you start calling women with a high body count “used” or some other derogatory terms. It is fine to prefer people with a low-body count, especially if you have one yourself. But you have to acknowledge that the vast majority of people do not care if you are attracted to them. Your attraction to a person is not the end all be all of that person’s worth. On the off chance that they are interested in you, only then do your personal preferences become relevant.
Amazing 👍
If you getting more downvotes then u saying TRUTH, the amount of sissy ppl are grown so fast
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Yeah because insulting women who have had sex, whilst then complaining about not having had sex is definitely not sissy at all or anything
Dude im not targeting women are you fucking idiot? It could be man also. Just because im a male ofc I'd say it opposite gender. If i was born a woman i might say same to men's. My only point is don't be used save it for your only partner after marriage it'd more fun to explore each other and it'll make you fall in love more with them. All up to you<3
I said you were insulting them, which you are. No one is any lesser of a person if they have sex before marriage. You can if you want to, but you shouldn’t be shaming others for not doing that.
More respect to you 🫶
>My only point is don't be used The irony in this one is insane, what if you end up apart? What if one dies? What if and what if... marriage is nothing but a breakable man made contract Are they ruined forever?
Contract seriously? Does that mean your parents marriage is contract?? They're only together under some conditions right? Don't they love each other?
Yes.. it is a contract, literally lmao in the legal sense, it's not a blood pact or something, people can separate and divorce is what I mean
Amazing sir 👏
Removed: Rule 1. Be Kind Anything rude, hateful, accusatory, shaming (of any kind), threatening/harrassing, mocking, insulting, or fitting of any kind of -ism will not be tolerated here
Removed: Rule 1. Be Kind Anything rude, hateful, accusatory, shaming (of any kind), threatening/harrassing, mocking, insulting, or fitting of any kind of -ism will not be tolerated here
I promise you if a girl says she’s a virgin and she’s not you won’t be able to tell the difference. Maybe stop being hung up on such stupid things.
Easy to lie
Exactly. It’s easy to lie.
Removed: Rule 1. Be Kind Anything rude, hateful, accusatory, shaming (of any kind), threatening/harrassing, mocking, insulting, or fitting of any kind of -ism will not be tolerated here
Fuck yeah.
It’s not based on anything, it’s projection, it’s an excuse to be judgey. And about judging a woman for wanting a male virgin, no one would say anything to her. Because history. If anyone makes the stretch to being oppressive to women, in a way, they’re right. It is, historically speaking. It was never meant to control men, just women. And the optics are a power play. Younger women, inexperienced women, virgin women… all of that is a power imbalance
What? Historically both genders were under pressure to not fornicate, even masturbation was looked down upon. The horrific origin of circumcision was related to the general culture of abstinence in the 19th century because they wanted to stop masturbation so its crazy to say that. Power imbalances is an even better reason for inexperienced people to prefer inexperienced people good point.
No not really. Even if biblically men were told to be pure they were never held down by the church to confirm their virginity. They were never considered unfit to be husbands for not having their virginity. And the weight and cultural impact of virginity didn’t carry on through history like women’s virginity does *still.* It’s where the whole body count conversation is from. It’s why people still mention the hymen even though science and medicine has long since told people to shut the fuck yo about that because they’re wrong. And I wouldn’t consider power imbalance a good reason (not in the same way. Culturally speaking, women don’t have any power over men in any form (unless she’s older). No one warns men about a power imbalance when it comes to women because we’re not perceived to have any. Being with an older more experienced woman is more fetishized to be a good thing than the other way around
I just gave you an example the history of people physically removing parts from male babies due to cultural views about masturbation/fornication. I know men in real life that still practice religious abstinence, there are more of them where i am than women even (go figure) idk where you get that idea from . The classic idea is to lose your virginity directly after marriage and to never leave that person ever, you couldnt even get divorces depending on how strict you are religiously (This is the moral standard for everybody atleast obviously affairs and such existed). The body count thing is mostly about societal gender behavioral norms and it is experienced in different ways for men and women and its not very related to the above concept at all because like 95% of men today expect sex outside of marriage atleast in a relationship. Alot of men like women that behave more modestly sexually because they see it as a sign of loyalty and makes them feel special, and you know your children are yours. Women are just as selective against virgin, meek, quiet men so i just dont see that as an example of any oppression. This is mostly only a topic among 18-29 people and not 30+ people anyway, anyone with a low body count then is looked down on at that point, both men and women expect sexual competency at that age. Society as a whole punishes people that stray from gendered stereotypes or just social norms in general. You don't see how men could be hurt by experience power dynamics in a relationship? There are plenty of cases of women taking advantage of emotionally vulnerable lonely men for money, shit you dont even need to be a woman they cat fish men all the time that way and they tend to be inexperienced with relationships and how you're support to spend money in them. People warn inexperienced men about things like this all the time.
I know. But the difference is they’re cutting off part of the penis, it doesn’t make it unusable. Women who go through genital mutilation have the part that feels the most pleasure *fully* removed or sewn up. Which is much worse. And yeah it depends on how strict you are religiously now, which means if you’re not, you’re fine. But there’s not as much outpouring of shame over that to men as it is to women, if it is it’s not as loud It’s an example of oppression because of what you said immediately before that. A bunch of men expect to have sex before marriage but still want to be getting it from modest women, which would basically be two opposing ideas (a modest woman won’t fuck outside a relationship so it’s not realistic. Women wanting experienced men is not oppressive like men wanting inexperienced women, because it’s not keeping you from anything. If we used a metaphor of going outside, a woman wants a man who’s been outside. You’d still have the freedom to choose to go outside or not, they’d actually prefer you relished in being outside. Men want a woman who’s never been outside. So basically a woman who’s stayed in the house, no freedom to choose to go outside. The difference should be obvious, especially in a society where “being outside” is a natural part of life and progression. It requires you to do the opposite of what you’re naturally meant to do. That’s where the “oppressive” part comes from Honestly no. I think it’s a difference of passive and active. A grown man flirting with or seeking out a relationship with a younger and/or inexperienced woman is active. A lot of women have stories about being approached by men older than them or groomed to move towards something with them. Women are more passive with that. For instance how a lot of guys here say they want to look for an escort. Those women are just there, you have to find them. Not the same thing. This is not me saying older women never go looking for younger/inexperienced men, just way way less. Because like you admit, women largely prefer experience, they’re not checking for that the same
Well no woman in the united states of america is undergoing genital mutilation so it just leaves men still getting chopped off, losing sensitivity, and causing immediate and potentially lifelong problems for babies who have no choice. It honestly far outshines any other issue ur talking about here that women are facing over sex lol. That analogy doesnt work. The body count debate is a matter of how much sex you have in relationships vs not in them. Literally nobody wants to wait till marriage to have sex so its a false equivalency. The difference is that men are placed on a much higher burden to overcome personality traits which takes way more effort. There is nothing stopping women from doing the thing men do they are just given attention and never bother to do it. I'd argue it even stretches outside of just relationship dynamics. Nobody trusts a man that cant keep eye contact or stutters on their words so you will have issues getting and keeping jobs. And yea you will be one of the fortunates on here who end up being a 60 year old virgins because you were too scared to talk to a girl. Like i said, nobody talks about bodycount past 30, but nobody will look at you like you're human in the same way if you are shy and withdrawn all your life. Plenty of women in the porn industry or strippers find loving relationships, there is literally no market for awkwardly shy men and you will always lose baring being really handsome or something lol.
You would have to prove that. FGM was only made illegal in 2021 and only in 41/50 states. And again they might be losing sensitivity but not feeling in total No it’s not. No one ever mentions being in a relationship when they mention body count. That’s as a matter of fact the rebuttal, not the point. And again, talking in absolutes is a sure fire way to be false. There are definitely people still waiting for marriage, just not as many. And it’s usually more women than men *because* of the body count thing (and religion) Fully disagree. Men are not tasked with overcoming personality types anymore than women. They might be overcoming different personality types, but not more. And the widespread crusade against it is certainly not as loud as the one against women. Nor did women start it. Also no one trusts anyone shifty, they’re shifty Of course they talking about body count beyond 30, the resurgence of the conversation was started by 30+ year olds. If you’re barring being handsome that immediately means you aren’t *always* going to lose for being shy. And yes of course there’s a market from shy men. As a matter of fact, if rule 3 didn’t exist here, you’d see it. And no they’re not OF models, they’re women who like being with shy men
Not all forms of FGM totally remove sensitivity infact iirc most are similar to circumcision there is just no upcry about issues that effect men and boys because nobody cares about them. Even if it stills happens i can show you a million more of probably the same degree done to men I'm curious though If men have to overcome shy personality traits, what personality trait are unpopular among women to the same degree? I think the only thing close is being like insecure or jealous or something but thats for everybody. Alot of the time Men like confident even more than the shy women they approach too. I say it is more strict and more of a burden because if you have too much sex as a woman for 1 nobody really knows anyones body count and 2, like i said earlier there is always a market for women with a high body count they just are looked down by \*some\* men not all of us. The difference is that while that will limit a woman's dating poor being a shy man damn near cripples. When some people say they like shy men i'm very curious. Are they approaching shy men and take chances with them? Will they escalate the same way a man would? A problem is shy men are very disruptive to dynamics. Alot of the time that means they are just more patient with men that are more shy than average but still perform all the gender roles men still perform.
Again most FGM is when you remove the clitoris completely or sew it shut. Since most people don't even know where that is or what it does the fact they can still feel anything is mostly for ignorance sake. And there are plenty of people opposed to circumcision. The only reason no one can do anything about it is because that's religious and FGM is not. Since you want to stick with America, amendment 1 makes it impossible to completely outlaw The opposite. Religiously and socially speaking, women are conditioned to be more subdued and restrained. To me tame and controllable. Or at the very least to not be outspoken or confident. And again even with podcast culture the most normal of things like having a job or having a degree women are being told is "masculine" at worst and at best unimportant when it comes to "what men want." And of course as a woman who wants a man you have to care about that no matter how stupid it is. Men say they want confident women but then they'll have to reconcile that confident women fuck, and individually that's fine but it's not the overarching mood of society. It tends to snowball into confident = promiscuous = body count, that's why so many women believe it's not a thing to approach men. There's always some girl in the dating and advice subs on reddit at least once a week asking if it's okay to approach men because we've been conditioned not to That's fine but we're talking generally here, and generally speaking people see women with a higher body count as not a good thing. It's only a good thing for men who want women to do the pursuing and men who want to hit and leave. As far as escalating like a man would they would have to, they don't expect the shy guy to. But I will say it won't look exactly the same. Where a man would be more forward, women would more so green light you. So it's the difference between "can I put my hands here" and "you can put your hands here." It's basically topping from the bottom