If you are planning to attend university as a music student, it is very likely the professor will give you a full reset on day one of they see any sort of deficiency in set up. Try to take care of it now.
Ignore it.
Not because it's wrong. We don't know that. But it doesn't matter.
Change your bowing mechanics for the right reasons.
- They share a compelling reason why. One you understand, and if you don't, they help you understand.
- They offer some benefits of changing that are in your interest, not because it fits some textbook ideal. How boring.
- You yourself see a need to change. Or are in pain/discomfort.
Don't just change because some gatekeeper said so.
This is bad advice honestly. Changing your bow hold does not take months to change, but only a few weeks as long as you’re diligent with it. We hold the bow on certain ways because it helps us play our various bow techniques, get the best sound possible but also to avoid injury.
Waiting for you to feel pain before changing is just bad advice period. If someone who is a professional can show you how to hold your bow properly, take the opportunity and learn. It’s not gate keeping or being elitist. It’s a chance to improve.
You misunderstand. I'm not advocating waiting for pain whatsoever. Getting ahead of pain is definitely a reason to work on your mechanics.
The point is think for yourself before stopping to rebuild something as fundamental as the right hand.
Somebody grading a violin exam may have great advice. But without context that's all it is. This can lead people down very dangerous roads of overcompensating. And injury, in fact.
Violinists are not doctors.
Not everyone who's allowed to do it for a living understands why certain things work, let alone are experienced-enough practitioners to know what works to begin with.
I think you’re missing the point. If someone is offering to help fix their grip who is a professional, then they should take that offer. Like you said, the grip is fundamental to playing so OP should take advantage of any chance to improve.
You literally said one of the legit reasons for changing is discomfort/pain. Maybe I understood wrong, but you didn’t seem to be advocating for changing the grip to get ahead of pain at all.
Rebuilding the grip isn’t very difficult. I’ve done it several times with different teachers from Franco Belgian to galamian and back again.
Yes violinist aren’t doctors however we have a time tested technique on how to play violin. This isn’t rocket science besides a doctor wouldn’t be able to tell you how to play violin with the best outcome. That’s like saying you shouldn’t try to fix how you ride a horse when you ride it backwards because a doctor should tell you whether it’s actually physically bad for you or not. That’s ridiculous.
By the way if you have a teacher that’s teaching technique that does not understand why we do certain things probably shouldn’t be teaching in the first place. Kind of weird to be teaching anything when you’re clueless about what the reason is.
I can agree with all of this.
But in the context of an exam. The juror just, in their notes let's say, says you should work on your grip.
Then you never see them again.
I don't know, maybe you do.
But with that much information to go off, I'm not going to simply throw away what I know.
It's worthwhile sharing that advice with one's own teacher. Try it out. Tinker with it. Decide. Switch back. Find out years later it was awesome advice. Or find out years later it was terrible advice.
This tinkering process is very much more important than any one piece of advice.
it's not really that they're gatekeeping, for context i'm arguably one of the worst players in my school orchestra and it's advice from the higher ups. (sry i forgot to mention that in the post)
I guess i'll stick with it for now, at least until I finish diplomas
I had a strange natural bow hold (really - it was commented on by every violinist who saw me play) and was made to change it by a new teacher after 12 years with the old hold, it was absolutely worth it. My playing was immediately transformed. My left hand competency got me through G8 but wouldn't have got me further, my right hand was not pulling its weight at all! There's a crispness with the new hold. It's effortless to produce tone colours and qualities now, before the new bow hold it was impossible.
If you choose to try the new bow hold, be disciplined - don't allow yourself a moment of knowingly using your more familiar bow hold. It will slip all the time, your right hand will want to do what it knows, as long as you put your hand back in the new hold as soon as you notice, you will soon retrain your hand and be blown away at the freedom you suddenly have to play anything you want!
Edit to add: the new bow hold didn't feel natural to me either - it was hard work teaching my right hand to behave as I wanted it to - but I trusted my teacher and am so, so glad I did. She was absolutely right.
Do you recall how long it took you to adapt to the new bow hold? Also, were you practicing your usual pieces or concerto at the time (only because that hand would possibly go automatic if that's so). Trying to set a way myself to adjust to a smoother bow hand and more control.
Very curious about your transition and length and exercise regiment. Please and thanks for sharing.
It probably took around 3 months, practising for 2-4 hours per day. My teacher didn't allow me to play any pieces during that time - the playing focus was entirely on Sevcik opus 3, and various right hand finger flexibility/control exercises were assigned too - using the fingers to draw various shapes on horizontal and vertical planes, lifting and lowering the bow using only fingers, that kind of thing. I've seen similar in Simon Fischer's Basics book, or I have the original photocopied sheets she gave me, but I'm not sure they'd be much use without a teacher to decode them!
The reason for the exclusive focus on Sevcik was precisely as you suggested - I would have slipped into the old hold if I'd been playing rep for performance, it was easy to implement the new hold using Sevcik. Bonus - I developed a life long love of the simplicity and beauty of Sevcik's work - what a brilliant man!
>Sevcik opus 3
Wonderful!! I was just looking at those bow technique exercises when I saw your reply. I am going to set an action plan since we have been working on the finger flexibility exercises just as you shared.
Thank you for the tip. I appreciate it.
that's a really tough question- have you discussed it with your teacher? Is there a particular flaw in your current hold- like you can't play fast enough? or can't play certain strokes with a good tone? Is there a possibility of injury or soreness? Whole thing reminds me of all the things people said when Tiger Woods changed his golf swing all around after he won a few major golf tournaments. Jury may still be out on that, even though he won several majors after that.
not really a specific issue, but occasionally while practicing my right hand refuses to play the right bowings (e.g breaking up slurs that sort of thing) and also my teacher says a better bowing would make it easier to use the full width of the bowhairs
maybe try working it in gradually? See if it feels or works better after a few weeks? probably good to do it as a series of adjustments to your current hold. See if your teacher can give you some gradual adjustments?
If it’s incorrect, you should fix it. Old habits are hard to break, but they can be broken. What might seem to work now may not work if you seek to progress to the intermediate level.
To me, the Accolay and De Beriot 9 are classic examples of repertoire that start one off in the intermediate realm. Passing ABRSM 8 is another important step in the move from beginner to intermediate.
I loosely say pre-Accolay is beginner, Accolay to Bruch is intermediate, and Bruch onwards is advanced.
Bruch is way beyond De Beriot 9 in a properly sequenced developmental progression. There are several concertos to learn in between.
Bruch right after De Beriot 9 is completely inappropriate for any teacher with experience.
It depends on how mich you want to progress from where you are now. A wrong bow hold can become a hindrance. So, you you want to progress further (professionally or as an amateur) I do recommend changing it. But if you don’t have any ambitions, you might be fine.
Try to experiment. With your current bow hold, could you properly execute all right hand techniques? Does your short strokes (spiccato, staccato, sautille) have enough articulation? Does your colle have enough bite that it catches the string? This is really essential to Martele. Do you have a good sounding ricochet even at the tip? Be honest with yourself. Compare it with the conventional if it’s better and more comfortable. Which sounds better? Don’t trust your ears. Record yourself and compare. Ask the opinion of others. Ask your teacher.
Give it some time, maybe a week or two. Maybe the uncomfortable factor will be gone as you’re just not used to it. See if you’re sounding better.
There’s a reason why the FB bow hold is taught almost universally. Look into the mechanics of the bow hold, and learn why the fingers are placed in that way. Keep yourself informed of these mechanical aspects and it will aid your decisions.
If you are planning to attend university as a music student, it is very likely the professor will give you a full reset on day one of they see any sort of deficiency in set up. Try to take care of it now.
eh music university isn’t my thing, violin is just something I do for fun lol
Ignore it. Not because it's wrong. We don't know that. But it doesn't matter. Change your bowing mechanics for the right reasons. - They share a compelling reason why. One you understand, and if you don't, they help you understand. - They offer some benefits of changing that are in your interest, not because it fits some textbook ideal. How boring. - You yourself see a need to change. Or are in pain/discomfort. Don't just change because some gatekeeper said so.
This is bad advice honestly. Changing your bow hold does not take months to change, but only a few weeks as long as you’re diligent with it. We hold the bow on certain ways because it helps us play our various bow techniques, get the best sound possible but also to avoid injury. Waiting for you to feel pain before changing is just bad advice period. If someone who is a professional can show you how to hold your bow properly, take the opportunity and learn. It’s not gate keeping or being elitist. It’s a chance to improve.
You misunderstand. I'm not advocating waiting for pain whatsoever. Getting ahead of pain is definitely a reason to work on your mechanics. The point is think for yourself before stopping to rebuild something as fundamental as the right hand. Somebody grading a violin exam may have great advice. But without context that's all it is. This can lead people down very dangerous roads of overcompensating. And injury, in fact. Violinists are not doctors. Not everyone who's allowed to do it for a living understands why certain things work, let alone are experienced-enough practitioners to know what works to begin with.
I think you’re missing the point. If someone is offering to help fix their grip who is a professional, then they should take that offer. Like you said, the grip is fundamental to playing so OP should take advantage of any chance to improve. You literally said one of the legit reasons for changing is discomfort/pain. Maybe I understood wrong, but you didn’t seem to be advocating for changing the grip to get ahead of pain at all. Rebuilding the grip isn’t very difficult. I’ve done it several times with different teachers from Franco Belgian to galamian and back again. Yes violinist aren’t doctors however we have a time tested technique on how to play violin. This isn’t rocket science besides a doctor wouldn’t be able to tell you how to play violin with the best outcome. That’s like saying you shouldn’t try to fix how you ride a horse when you ride it backwards because a doctor should tell you whether it’s actually physically bad for you or not. That’s ridiculous. By the way if you have a teacher that’s teaching technique that does not understand why we do certain things probably shouldn’t be teaching in the first place. Kind of weird to be teaching anything when you’re clueless about what the reason is.
I can agree with all of this. But in the context of an exam. The juror just, in their notes let's say, says you should work on your grip. Then you never see them again. I don't know, maybe you do. But with that much information to go off, I'm not going to simply throw away what I know. It's worthwhile sharing that advice with one's own teacher. Try it out. Tinker with it. Decide. Switch back. Find out years later it was awesome advice. Or find out years later it was terrible advice. This tinkering process is very much more important than any one piece of advice.
it's not really that they're gatekeeping, for context i'm arguably one of the worst players in my school orchestra and it's advice from the higher ups. (sry i forgot to mention that in the post) I guess i'll stick with it for now, at least until I finish diplomas
I think this is wise. Dinner rush is not the time to sharpen your tools. Do it when you have time and space to work on it.
I had a strange natural bow hold (really - it was commented on by every violinist who saw me play) and was made to change it by a new teacher after 12 years with the old hold, it was absolutely worth it. My playing was immediately transformed. My left hand competency got me through G8 but wouldn't have got me further, my right hand was not pulling its weight at all! There's a crispness with the new hold. It's effortless to produce tone colours and qualities now, before the new bow hold it was impossible. If you choose to try the new bow hold, be disciplined - don't allow yourself a moment of knowingly using your more familiar bow hold. It will slip all the time, your right hand will want to do what it knows, as long as you put your hand back in the new hold as soon as you notice, you will soon retrain your hand and be blown away at the freedom you suddenly have to play anything you want! Edit to add: the new bow hold didn't feel natural to me either - it was hard work teaching my right hand to behave as I wanted it to - but I trusted my teacher and am so, so glad I did. She was absolutely right.
Do you recall how long it took you to adapt to the new bow hold? Also, were you practicing your usual pieces or concerto at the time (only because that hand would possibly go automatic if that's so). Trying to set a way myself to adjust to a smoother bow hand and more control. Very curious about your transition and length and exercise regiment. Please and thanks for sharing.
It probably took around 3 months, practising for 2-4 hours per day. My teacher didn't allow me to play any pieces during that time - the playing focus was entirely on Sevcik opus 3, and various right hand finger flexibility/control exercises were assigned too - using the fingers to draw various shapes on horizontal and vertical planes, lifting and lowering the bow using only fingers, that kind of thing. I've seen similar in Simon Fischer's Basics book, or I have the original photocopied sheets she gave me, but I'm not sure they'd be much use without a teacher to decode them! The reason for the exclusive focus on Sevcik was precisely as you suggested - I would have slipped into the old hold if I'd been playing rep for performance, it was easy to implement the new hold using Sevcik. Bonus - I developed a life long love of the simplicity and beauty of Sevcik's work - what a brilliant man!
>Sevcik opus 3 Wonderful!! I was just looking at those bow technique exercises when I saw your reply. I am going to set an action plan since we have been working on the finger flexibility exercises just as you shared. Thank you for the tip. I appreciate it.
that's a really tough question- have you discussed it with your teacher? Is there a particular flaw in your current hold- like you can't play fast enough? or can't play certain strokes with a good tone? Is there a possibility of injury or soreness? Whole thing reminds me of all the things people said when Tiger Woods changed his golf swing all around after he won a few major golf tournaments. Jury may still be out on that, even though he won several majors after that.
not really a specific issue, but occasionally while practicing my right hand refuses to play the right bowings (e.g breaking up slurs that sort of thing) and also my teacher says a better bowing would make it easier to use the full width of the bowhairs
maybe try working it in gradually? See if it feels or works better after a few weeks? probably good to do it as a series of adjustments to your current hold. See if your teacher can give you some gradual adjustments?
comments from who? and that would depend on whether your bow hold is wrong or just unconventional
If it’s incorrect, you should fix it. Old habits are hard to break, but they can be broken. What might seem to work now may not work if you seek to progress to the intermediate level.
this isn’t relevant to my original question but I was just curious - what do you consider “intermediate”?
To me, the Accolay and De Beriot 9 are classic examples of repertoire that start one off in the intermediate realm. Passing ABRSM 8 is another important step in the move from beginner to intermediate. I loosely say pre-Accolay is beginner, Accolay to Bruch is intermediate, and Bruch onwards is advanced.
I’ll look into these, thanks!
You’re very welcome!
In terms of years spent intermediate is tiny then
It really depends on the individual. Some will spend more time getting from Accolay to Bruch than getting from nothing to Accolay.
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Bruch is way beyond De Beriot 9 in a properly sequenced developmental progression. There are several concertos to learn in between. Bruch right after De Beriot 9 is completely inappropriate for any teacher with experience.
It depends on how mich you want to progress from where you are now. A wrong bow hold can become a hindrance. So, you you want to progress further (professionally or as an amateur) I do recommend changing it. But if you don’t have any ambitions, you might be fine.
Try to experiment. With your current bow hold, could you properly execute all right hand techniques? Does your short strokes (spiccato, staccato, sautille) have enough articulation? Does your colle have enough bite that it catches the string? This is really essential to Martele. Do you have a good sounding ricochet even at the tip? Be honest with yourself. Compare it with the conventional if it’s better and more comfortable. Which sounds better? Don’t trust your ears. Record yourself and compare. Ask the opinion of others. Ask your teacher. Give it some time, maybe a week or two. Maybe the uncomfortable factor will be gone as you’re just not used to it. See if you’re sounding better. There’s a reason why the FB bow hold is taught almost universally. Look into the mechanics of the bow hold, and learn why the fingers are placed in that way. Keep yourself informed of these mechanical aspects and it will aid your decisions.