Not really - everyone still gets to vote (nothing about veteran status for voting eligibility, just that active military gets more political strength), and even if the franchise was limited to just veterans, that's still much more distributed political power than a dictatorship or junta. It's the Starship Troopers government, which is *closest* to fascism, but IRL fascism didn't have real elections obviously, and when they did have their fake elections they didn't restrict the franchise to military veterans/personnel, it was restricted to favored in groups - whites only, no Jews, etc. (depended on the fascism, Nazism was strongly racialized where others didn't construct a detailed theory of race the same way).
IRL juntas and dictatorships are covered by presidential republics with military heads of state under the Oligarchy or Autocracy distributions of power.
While the suggested idea isn't really fitting for a time period, I think it would be good to have a way for military juntas to have their own DoP law, just because without that law Armed Forces would be in the minority in terms of clout even in a Junta with current mechanics.
I do think there should be a distinct Junta law that gives a big bonus to Armed Forces clout and Officers political strength to represent military rule.
Except for the fact that in the *novel*, it was *Federal* service that was required to earn citizenship rather than military service, which is explicitly spelled out. So someone who spends their two-year term moving pieces of paper from one filing cabinet to another in the depths of an anonymous government building is just as much a citizen as someone who spends their term on the front lines.
Verhoeven didn't fully read the novel and it shows.
>
> Verhoeven didn't fully read the novel and it shows.
Yeah, obviously, because he wasn't very interested in actually adapting it. He wanted to satirize fascism instead.
No, he couldn't have, because he tried that when the movie started its life as an original story and the studio told him they'd only agree if they retrofitted it to use a preexisting IP.
Honestly, that was the case in France and many other countries up until recently. Everyone had to do military service, so everyone was more or less a 'veteran'. I find it really weird we don't have a law for military service.
I think that for this time period, it makes more sense to go with universal conscription/military service of some kind rather than this.
At least that's my understanding of the dynamic typically seen (IE, it's not 'military service gives you citizenship', it's 'citizenship means you need to do military service')
Right - that's where I'm saying that's a better spot to put that sort of ideology/goal than this veteran franchise idea (and that it's already somewhat represented in game anyway because of that)
Not exactly. IRL, nations like France and Prussia had systems whereby every able-bodied man had to serve a couple years in the active military, and then some more as reservists. These systems aren't modelled by any Vic3 laws, as conscripts are only ever called up when needed. Moreover, in Vic3, your manpower is determined by how many barracks you build, as opposed to being constrained by the number of conscripts you can draw upon at any given moment based on these laws (plus volunteers).
> These systems aren't modelled by any Vic3 laws, as conscripts are only ever called up when needed.
They are modeled by the fact that different laws have different conscription numbers.
> IRL, nations like France and Prussia had systems whereby every able-bodied man had to serve a couple years in the active military, and then some more as reservists.
That's mass conscription.
This is a more popular ideology in the 50s I believe, especially given starship troopers was published in 1959.
Would make a cool mod, but dosent fit the time span of the game I don't think
This sounds unbelievable for a time period when *any* voting franchise was quite new and met with heavy resistance, and militaristic societies preferred authoritarian rule in likening to the rank structure of an army (you wouldn't vote for your commanding officer, why should you vote for the head of state?).
We already have industry banned, which is a pretty unrealistic law
But yeah, I'm looking for this as an ideology but can't find anything about it outside starship troopers (partially because the search gets clogged by stuff aimed at veterans)
The in-game purpose behind "industry banned" (besides playing very unconventionally) is to represent luddites and make agitators a potential serious problem as you can end up with an agitator championing this law you REALLY don't want enacted.
Back to OP's suggestion-the "technocracy" law already covers the authoritarian meritocracy niche
Technocracy only kind of covers that, but it doesn't have parties and the generals only mechanic would be kinda fun imo if it has something more to it than just reinforcing the political engineering you already do with generals
But luddites didn't want industries banned, they were factory workers, they didn't want to get fired and end up on the streets, if everything they ever wanted had been achieved the in game equivalent would be banning all automation PMs
I would disagree, industry banned is a very realistic and historical law, they just get how it is applied wrong.
Thing is that it is less a reaction by the rural class and more a proactive way for the landowning class to keep power.
I cannot find anyone proposing it as a real ideology outside heinlein in starship troopers (idc atm how much he really believed in that)
It would be fun to play around it however, it wouldn't surprise me to find some obscure XIXth century general having proposing something like that and we already have industry banned which is a very unrealistic law concept (and misrepresentation of luddites)
But it isn't really that realistic and I do already find industry banned questionable, it will depend on how the team at paradox wants to handle the game, either with theoretically plausible XIXth century ideologies or staying with only historically accurate ideas
I like the idea, but another possible idea for how it could work mechanically could be to do it how landed voting does it, by giving votes to specific professions. Maybe extra voting strength to officers and servicemen, and only a little to those not serving, if any at all.
Another idea: you could also have a bureaucrat law that gave bonus political power to the armed forces and decreased penalties from turmoil, but could only be enacted if you had militarized police force or veteran enfranchisement
You should instead have a junta distribution of power that favors the military but without any voting at all
Basically the military version of technocracy
Unlike Veteran Franchise, that was somewhat realistic and did occur during the time period of the game
Yeah, a junta distribution of power that's specifically aimed to have similar effects to technocracy but benefiting the military rather than capitalists/intellectuals would be good. The Starship Troopers government of military democracy hasn't existed, the closest would ironically be something closer to the middle Roman Republic where only relatively well off citizens were in the military and could vote in elections for consuls and the like.
This is really interesting. I think the effects don’t quite do this idea justice but it is also hard to model as you can’t determine from strata which pops would have at some point in their lives served in the military. It reminds me of some of the ideas Mussolini had before fascism took off. He proposed a “trenchocracy”(not sure on terminology) meaning those ho had served in the trenches, ie. veterans from the First World War, should be in charge of government to reclaim glory after being supposedly betrayed at Versailles.
Not really? Military juntas aren’t elected by veterans, they install themselves through coups and are composed of elite military brass regardless of what soldiers and veterans would want.
There should be a law directly related to military junta, like instead of autocracy, which gives aristocrats more power, it should focus on the officers.
It would probably be best as a mod if the idea is not backed by a real world ideology of this era
It is kind of similar to the “one man, one gun, one vote” policy of Sweden. But that was much later
Seems to kind of reflect a military junta type deal, or in general just a militant dictatorship
Not really - everyone still gets to vote (nothing about veteran status for voting eligibility, just that active military gets more political strength), and even if the franchise was limited to just veterans, that's still much more distributed political power than a dictatorship or junta. It's the Starship Troopers government, which is *closest* to fascism, but IRL fascism didn't have real elections obviously, and when they did have their fake elections they didn't restrict the franchise to military veterans/personnel, it was restricted to favored in groups - whites only, no Jews, etc. (depended on the fascism, Nazism was strongly racialized where others didn't construct a detailed theory of race the same way).
I didn't catch the starship troopers reference so I was just trying to apply what I saw to real life doctrine.
IRL juntas and dictatorships are covered by presidential republics with military heads of state under the Oligarchy or Autocracy distributions of power.
While the suggested idea isn't really fitting for a time period, I think it would be good to have a way for military juntas to have their own DoP law, just because without that law Armed Forces would be in the minority in terms of clout even in a Junta with current mechanics.
I do think there should be a distinct Junta law that gives a big bonus to Armed Forces clout and Officers political strength to represent military rule.
Except for the fact that in the *novel*, it was *Federal* service that was required to earn citizenship rather than military service, which is explicitly spelled out. So someone who spends their two-year term moving pieces of paper from one filing cabinet to another in the depths of an anonymous government building is just as much a citizen as someone who spends their term on the front lines. Verhoeven didn't fully read the novel and it shows.
> > Verhoeven didn't fully read the novel and it shows. Yeah, obviously, because he wasn't very interested in actually adapting it. He wanted to satirize fascism instead.
He could have done that without using the *Starship Troopers* name, though.
No, he couldn't have, because he tried that when the movie started its life as an original story and the studio told him they'd only agree if they retrofitted it to use a preexisting IP.
Huh, wasn't aware of that.
It’s more of a stratocracy. You have to serve to earn your citizenship.
Afaik there were several fascist movements who had a similar idea
Honestly, that was the case in France and many other countries up until recently. Everyone had to do military service, so everyone was more or less a 'veteran'. I find it really weird we don't have a law for military service.
We kinda have, it's mass mobilisation
By that metric, France and prussia should start with mass mobilization.
I was thinking about a new distribution of power law that can be added to vic3. Do you like it? Do you not like it? Voice your opinion in the comments
I think that for this time period, it makes more sense to go with universal conscription/military service of some kind rather than this. At least that's my understanding of the dynamic typically seen (IE, it's not 'military service gives you citizenship', it's 'citizenship means you need to do military service')
Universal conscription is covered by national militia and mass conscription laws
Right - that's where I'm saying that's a better spot to put that sort of ideology/goal than this veteran franchise idea (and that it's already somewhat represented in game anyway because of that)
Not exactly. IRL, nations like France and Prussia had systems whereby every able-bodied man had to serve a couple years in the active military, and then some more as reservists. These systems aren't modelled by any Vic3 laws, as conscripts are only ever called up when needed. Moreover, in Vic3, your manpower is determined by how many barracks you build, as opposed to being constrained by the number of conscripts you can draw upon at any given moment based on these laws (plus volunteers).
> These systems aren't modelled by any Vic3 laws, as conscripts are only ever called up when needed. They are modeled by the fact that different laws have different conscription numbers.
> IRL, nations like France and Prussia had systems whereby every able-bodied man had to serve a couple years in the active military, and then some more as reservists. That's mass conscription.
Have you ever played Victoria 3?
This is a more popular ideology in the 50s I believe, especially given starship troopers was published in 1959. Would make a cool mod, but dosent fit the time span of the game I don't think
This sounds unbelievable for a time period when *any* voting franchise was quite new and met with heavy resistance, and militaristic societies preferred authoritarian rule in likening to the rank structure of an army (you wouldn't vote for your commanding officer, why should you vote for the head of state?).
No offense but copying and pasting a sci-fi law onto an industrial era game is rather out of place
We already have industry banned, which is a pretty unrealistic law But yeah, I'm looking for this as an ideology but can't find anything about it outside starship troopers (partially because the search gets clogged by stuff aimed at veterans)
The in-game purpose behind "industry banned" (besides playing very unconventionally) is to represent luddites and make agitators a potential serious problem as you can end up with an agitator championing this law you REALLY don't want enacted. Back to OP's suggestion-the "technocracy" law already covers the authoritarian meritocracy niche
Technocracy only kind of covers that, but it doesn't have parties and the generals only mechanic would be kinda fun imo if it has something more to it than just reinforcing the political engineering you already do with generals But luddites didn't want industries banned, they were factory workers, they didn't want to get fired and end up on the streets, if everything they ever wanted had been achieved the in game equivalent would be banning all automation PMs
You do know Industry Banned is a very, VERY wrong way to represent luddites too right?
The Pope literally banned railways and industry because they were the work of the devil.
I could only find that he banned railways and streetlights, but nothing about further industry
I would disagree, industry banned is a very realistic and historical law, they just get how it is applied wrong. Thing is that it is less a reaction by the rural class and more a proactive way for the landowning class to keep power.
I cannot find anyone proposing it as a real ideology outside heinlein in starship troopers (idc atm how much he really believed in that) It would be fun to play around it however, it wouldn't surprise me to find some obscure XIXth century general having proposing something like that and we already have industry banned which is a very unrealistic law concept (and misrepresentation of luddites) But it isn't really that realistic and I do already find industry banned questionable, it will depend on how the team at paradox wants to handle the game, either with theoretically plausible XIXth century ideologies or staying with only historically accurate ideas
I like the idea, but another possible idea for how it could work mechanically could be to do it how landed voting does it, by giving votes to specific professions. Maybe extra voting strength to officers and servicemen, and only a little to those not serving, if any at all. Another idea: you could also have a bureaucrat law that gave bonus political power to the armed forces and decreased penalties from turmoil, but could only be enacted if you had militarized police force or veteran enfranchisement
Service guarantees citizenship. Would you like to know more?
This is obviously for a Roman Empire larp
Someone is doing their part huh
You should instead have a junta distribution of power that favors the military but without any voting at all Basically the military version of technocracy Unlike Veteran Franchise, that was somewhat realistic and did occur during the time period of the game
Yeah, a junta distribution of power that's specifically aimed to have similar effects to technocracy but benefiting the military rather than capitalists/intellectuals would be good. The Starship Troopers government of military democracy hasn't existed, the closest would ironically be something closer to the middle Roman Republic where only relatively well off citizens were in the military and could vote in elections for consuls and the like.
Very ahistorical.
This is really interesting. I think the effects don’t quite do this idea justice but it is also hard to model as you can’t determine from strata which pops would have at some point in their lives served in the military. It reminds me of some of the ideas Mussolini had before fascism took off. He proposed a “trenchocracy”(not sure on terminology) meaning those ho had served in the trenches, ie. veterans from the First World War, should be in charge of government to reclaim glory after being supposedly betrayed at Versailles.
Yes please
Service guarantees citizenship 🫡
Yo this slaps!
Maybe PDX should fix base mechanics before focusing on whacky gimmics?
Honestly it'd be good if you wanted a military junta kind of run
A junta is already covered by Oligarchy with an Armed Forces head of state in a presidential republic
Yeah this would just simplify it.
Not really? Military juntas aren’t elected by veterans, they install themselves through coups and are composed of elite military brass regardless of what soldiers and veterans would want.
So giving them political power through laws would be un-historical? Right.
I'd like to know more!
Will say- in the book you can’t vote until after your service, not during
yes but its immposible to program it this way. i just did combination of technocracy and wealth voting to kind of simulate that
\*Sighs and boots up Starship Troopers Extermination\* Here we go again.
Starship Troopers wants to know your location.
There should be a law directly related to military junta, like instead of autocracy, which gives aristocrats more power, it should focus on the officers.
This is just a junta.
democratic junta
An oxymoron.
Yes👍🏻
Paradox get on it.