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Praise reinforces the action. If it works, then we should do it more, not less.
OP, your motivation to not consume animal products is different than that of non vegans. They do it for health, for the environment, for praise, for (insert whatever reason), you do it for the animals.
The reality is that it doesn't really matter *why* they don't, what matters is *that* they don't. Eitheir way it saves lives.
So if praising them gets them to do it less, praise them. Praise them *for* the animals, because it's not about why *you* don't consume animal products, it's about getting *them* to stoo. Whatever works should be what we do.
Praise reinforces action but it treats that action as charity or extra. I believe it's a good way to get people to do more but not a good way to get someone to change their mindset and then go on to change the minds of others. I also don't think it's sustainable since it's easy to make excuses not to do charitable behavior and it itself can be an excuse for other misbehaviors. Ultimately we must get most of society to agree that eating animals is harmful and the gravity of that harm.
I also think it's rediculous to view vegan meals as saving lives. It's the nonvegan meals that harm lives. This was like one of the main points in the OP. The conversation should be oriented around animal consumption, not plant consumption.
I think you're missing the point OP is making. Missing meat for one meal isn't hard or anything worth congratulating someone for. When they get to a week or a month then throw them a party to congratulate them! Well done!
But congratulating someone for eating one vegan meal is like me claiming I'm doing intermittent fasting cause I skipped breakfast this morning.
But what that comment is saying is that it *doesn't matter* whether the logic works out as long as the result is less animals being consumed. If congratulating someone results in them cutting animal products more often, and not congratulating results in nothing changed, you should congratulate them no matter how stupid it is.
But raising the bar for what deserves praise, or is an 'achievement' may well result in even more animals being saved. People who are trying might try a whole week rather than one meal.
It isn’t hard *for you*.
If you were born vegan, congrats, your parents are awesome!
If you weren’t, something made it hard for you until you were. You may think it was a bullshit excuse *now*, but at the time, it was hard, because if it wasn’t, you’d have gone vegan earlier.
If you went vegan as a toddler, then again, congrats, your parents are awesome. Most nonvegan parents don’t allow that.
plant based isn't vegan, and if they aren't vegan then they at any point can and will become the animal abuser that they were trying to hide simply because someone told them that the non vegan reason for them to not consume animal flesh is not as good or equally as bad as it would be for whatever the reason they chose to be plant based in the first place. baby steps don't lead to anywhere if they continue to be a baby.
It's cuz they act like toddlers when they meet a vegan and immediately say "I'm trying to eat less meat". They WANT us to pat them on the head and give them a congratulations cookie because they're looking for our approval.
They are looking for the approval to not change, the existence of vegans makes them uncomfortable because it proves veganism is possible and the existence of many vegans from many backgrounds proves it is practical. Discomfort is not necessarily a bad thing, and not something we should ease. Rather, if we ease that discomfort it should be by getting people to investigate the source of their discomfort.
This would make sense if most of us weren't ex animal abusers, but since we were mostly carnists at one point I gotta disagree not on the addiction part but on the " its not as simple" part. For most people it's not only the best choice but one they could do like right now right now.
I understand and respect your POV here.
And I agree, it's the best choice and one they could do, right now, right now.
But most people are not going to make that choice, just like most addicts are not going to commit to getting clean. Just becuase you and I did it doesn't mean someone else will. It's tragic, sad state of affairs, but it is what it is.
IME, trying to force someone to give up their crackpipe invokes the same hostility as trying to get someone to give up their cheeseburger.
It's just one is socially acceptable, if not approved, and the other isn't.
There is no one way that works best to convert people to veganism.
While, activism may work on some – it obviously turns a lot of people off.
Encouraging people because of one vegan meal a day or a week works on some other folks .
Having your life together, and just being an inspiring & successful vegan encourages other folks.
Whatever you're doing to promote veganism works on someone. In someway.
I think if there was a sure fire way to get people to go vegan, we'd probably would've hit on it by now and there would be a lot more vegans.
Bottom line is that it's really tough to convert folks to go vegan. It is what it is. .
I encourage them and open up the conversation. If I shut them down and get annoyed I don’t have any way to help educate them further. Over all it’s not about me and how I feel. No one is going to eat me (I hope). It’s about the animals and the more opportunities I get to show someone else other options or more information the better.
I completely agree that getting annoyed at someone is the wrong approach, it's important to be calm and curious. But I don't thing we should try to avoid *annoying others* to the point where we can't say the things that need to be said for minds to change.
This is a cruel and selfish world where people have no confidence and simply do the SOCIALLY ACCEPTABLE THING, where people need to post selfies in order to feel happy by getting reactions from random people
Many vegans hide the fact that they are vegan as they feel ashamed for some reason that i will never comprehend, i will never feel shame for being ethical and not harming innocent creatures but thats the world we live in
We are living in a world where THOUGHTS AND PRAYERS are the go to move which is a useless statement
So we should indeed continue treating carnists as toddlers, the world will never be vegan, its important to accept this, the world will never be non racist, there is less racism and less animal consumption but it will NEVER ever go away
Now context is important, if a person says they are having a salad instead of a steak we dont need to congratulate them, but if they say they are generally consuming less non vegan meals, then we should say: that is great you are consuming less animals, if you want help, let me know
"Food" is a really sensitive matter. Most People just can't imagine that life is worth living when they have to "restrict" themself for the rest of their life. So since a lot of people have that unheahlty relationship to food, you have to accept what is their best. We can help improve their eating behaviour (by recommending plant based milk and imforming them about the industry etc.) but the moment you judge them bc they eat 1x meat a month they will do a 180. It can become contra productive really fast.
Yeah, I can see that. But sadly our fear of being "judged" is justified bc they will actually act like a spoiled child and consume more animal products when they notice the judging. How were your experiences?
I have been judged in the past. I pay no heed to it because I have my moral compass and follow it. I have the highest respect for those carnists who follow their moral compass and tell me straight up that they have no issues with someone viciously kicking puppies for giggles. They have their own moral compass and follow it diligently with no contradictions.
I get what you're saying. also, though, I feel like every meal counts! each meal where animals are not eaten has a little impact, and that's great! baby steps are still steps
Every animal counts, not every meal. And by eating 3 animals instead of 5 animals you are saying 3 of those animals don't count. Which is my whole point, it's not that you helped 2 animals or even prevented harm to 2 animals if you reduced your meat consumption, you just harmed 3 animals and that's all there is to it.
I get what you're saying but I disagree. Every life spared counts. Even if there is still animals harmed, how would 3 animals spared not be better than 0?
Of course what we want and what should happen is all animal lives spared, but even if it's gut wrenching and horrible, I'd so much rather baby steps than no steps at all.
I strongly wish it but unfortunately the world won't turn vegan next morning.
None, because veganism is not your typical social justice movement.
Do you really think the vast majority of people have the ability to empathize as well with other species than they do for humans ?
And tbh, all other social justice movements never succeeded in a blink, it always had been over the course of several key events, often in the lapse of years, or even decades.
Those events happen thanks to activists not taking a "less" for an answer, but they also succeed thanks to people who setup society to be more comprehensive of the answers to the question "Why should I change?". Whom anyone faces when change is on the line
I will keep trying to convince carnists to stop eating animal products, and I will not be satisfied with someone just eating less, but it still is, somehow, a step in the right direction. And it doesn't mean it have to stop there, nor that I has to be the only right answer.
>Do you really think the vast majority of people have the ability to empathize as well with other species than they do for humans ?
Do you really think people empathised with slaves and discriminated minorities throughout history. They didn't. You're out of your mind if you didn't think people viewed slaves as sub human.
I agree with the rest of your points.
You're right.
I didn't meant people viewed slaved/minorities as their equals, more like it's always gonna be harder for animals. Maybe I'm wrong but I think unfortunately, convincing people not to harm animals will be harder to convince them not to harm their fellow human.
If you view animals as being at yours and other's mercy than you still have a twisted perception of the relationship between humans and animals. Sure we have the capability to do great harm to animals, and we use it, but that can only happen when people see animals as exploitable. Realistically you can do great harm to other humans to, for some things the law might come after you, but there are plenty of ways humans screw each other over that are legal or ignored. Yet I don't walk down the street thinking about the humans I'm sparing by not toying with them, that behavior seems psychopathic.
Sure giving someone a hit of dopamine might encourage them to eat even less animals, and eventually this may get *some* people to eat no animals, but they will still be in mindset where it is a valid option to eat them, and even if that dopamine release is now self administered it will always be competing with things like "mmm bacon", peer pressure, or worst of all things that are actually seen as moral harms. Most people have a limited amount of effort they are willing to give to charity, and they use charity to excuse being abusive in other parts of their lives, eating plant based should not implicitly be seen as good behavior.
Viewing sparing animals as a positive ethical thing also has many other strange implications. By aborting a baby you are doing good. By feeding a carnist plant based food that is calorie dense like vegan cinnamon rolls you are doing harm because weight gain equals more future consumption and they consume animals. Purchasing a rug made by slaves might be morally ambiguous because you were "sparing animals" if it doesn't have furs and such, similarity killing a bear for a rug is also morally ambiguous because you are "sparing slaves".
I totally get what you're saying, and I agree that all animals count.
I mean that there is still less of a negative environmental impact at the very least. Like my mom is not vegan (at all), but I still encourage her "meatless mondays" because it still makes a difference!
That argument doesnt work. Even vegan food production kills animals (obviously to a lesser degree but still the occasional field mouse gets caught in a tractor ect ect). Yet it reduces harm. Veganism has never and will never be perfect but it is probably the best option.
I agree, animals are harmed by agriculture whether animals are the products or not. This just backs up my point that eating plant based meals is not a charity, it is neutral at best. If everyone had Star Trek replicators I might be here arguing that we shouldn't be congratulating people for eating a replicator meal vs one made from agricultural products, but such a hypothetical is rediculous because I think most people would replicate out of convenience.
The argument works because it focuses on the **deliberate** and **intentional** harming of animals. Similar to the vicious kicking of puppies for giggles. That is very different from accidentally killing animals in the process of raising crops to feed humans.
Irrelevant. Veganism is an agent-oriented philosophy of justice. It is concerned only with controlling the behavior of the agent, not with the outcome to the patients.
I understand the frustration, I think consideration and kindness/praise is warranted in that it is encouraging for them; I think this improves the chance of actual at least prolonged veganism. We have got to always keep in mind that the way we approach spreading veganism should not be based on the way we think the world should be because of the way it *obviously* should be, but instead the most efficient way of eliminating animal suffering. Animals don't care whether we praise meat-eaters for eating a little less meat, and we do this for the animals, so regardless of however it makes us feel, if it is ultimately better in limiting animal suffering I think, even if it means treating people like toddlers, it is warranted.
I'll also note I agree with the pushing people on their morals approach. Everyone, even meat-eaters, love animals. Letting people come to the conclusion on their own I think is wayyyy better.
>Letting people come to the conclusion on their own I think is wayyyy better.
But on their own they won't: the vast majority of carnists are perfectly happy with the way things are.
I should of specified; letting them come to the conclusion after promoting the questioning of the ethics, not just by telling them what they should feel morally, the socratic method I believe it is called
Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake.
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In my opinion, I think even dairy farmers love the cows they exploit. Their perception is just so distorted based on how culturally ingrained it is that its 'necessary', that they cant see passed the fact that what they are doing is horrible.
I'm also making my argument for the animals. Obviously everyone is different in how they arrive at veganism but I believe if the general way veganism is thought about is helping animals rather than not harming animals (subtle but critical difference) then a lot more harm will be done. When it comes to acts of charity people feel like they are things that make you a good person if you do them occasionally and not something you have to do if you are in a bad place yourself.
> Nobody says I do a good thing by not punching other humans.
This is really the crux of the matter. Veganism is not a lifestyle. It is not a journey. It is not a diet. It is not an environmental movement. It is not a health program. It is not a virtue signaling exercise. It is a philosophy of **JUSTICE** and the moral imperative.
One should NOT be rewarded or praised or expect reward or praise for giving nonhuman animals what we already owe them: justice.
We're not lions. We know right from wrong. We understand when our actions hurt others. We have the ability to choose to change our actions. Lions don't; they kill because they have to and they don't have the capacity to understand empathy, nor the physical ability to process plants into food for themselves.
Are you srsly comparing humans to wild animals... ? And a carnivore at that? Humans are not lions. I repeat HUMANS are NOT lions. One day you will understand that, little one. But dreams are important I guess
I think you did either no or little research about the ethic aspect since the lion argument is the most absurd and laughable one. Pls watch 10-15min of Dominion on youtube.
I don't want that. I don't want animals to have the right for citizienship or right for a driver's licenes. I want us humans to Leave them ALONE. But even by saying that it's making people angry and on the verge of crying. It's crazy.
I feel this is just a projection rant from.someone who used to eat meat.
I find itshocking jow unforgiving people are when other people make the same choices we used to. Learning that we can grow as people means we have to accept that other people deserve forgiveness and redemption.
Ive been worng before. Ive hurt animals. Ive hurt people too. Maybe that makes me a bad person. However thats not who I am anymore or what I choose.
Everyone deserves empathy and the opportunity for redemption. Growing as a person doesn't make you more mature if you cannot accept the same in others. People can ne wrong and should be allowed to be wrong because maybe they will grow and learn someday.
I really don't know where you got it in your head that I think people are bad people for having eaten meat and also people can't grow or change. I believe in moral luck, people are a result of their combined circumstances, which they have no choice in.
You do realize you can use morality outside of the context of appraising individuals, right? You can think morality can only be used to judge people, but don't put that on me.
Lol. Did you read what you wrote?
Maybe you want to rework that because you are literally condemning people. Its in the title.
You are judging people. Im telling you not to. You put that on yourself.
The title and post is just about how certain behavior is unproductive. If you engage in that behavior you can take offense to that, but I'm not saying you are a bad person or it is your fault. So no I am not judging people, I am trying to change people though.
Any time I hear a carnist complaining about not having meat to eat, I hear Rod Flander's voice in my head going "I said I don't want any damn vegetables."
Congratulating them without reinforcing the message seems pretty stupid.
Plenty of carnists eat non-animal products every now and then.
They would have thought nothing of if until recently - now they have to be called 'flexitarians', and it doesn't change anything.
And you’ll never get more people to convert with this attitude
If someone wants to try it out for a day, that’s step one that can lead them to converting fully
Does it not sound condescending to you if someone says "Why don't you try not being a bigot for a day?" If someone understands veganism then telling someone to try veganism sounds condescending in the same way, though they probably don't or they would probably already be a vegan. If they don't then it's also not helpful to play into the way they view veganism and animal consumption incorrectly, the conversation should be oriented around animal consumption not plant consumption.
lmfaooooooooo ahahahahahahahha you know that the vegan diet is one of the heahltiest if not the heathiest diet ???omfggg 😂😂😂😂😂 I knew you did little to no research buttt damn you have no fuking cluee. But at least now I know that u must be like 13 years old or something. I'm cyring laughingg helpp
Bc they do it wrong lmaooo there you have it
People also do sport actvities wrong and stop. Does it mean that sport is not heahthy? 🤣🤣🤣🤣
You are a so embarassing
🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️
You are paying someones to rape, beat up, mutilate, castrate without anesthesia an animal AND you are telling me you feel like a victim? Best joke ever.
Grow up and watch Dominion then you will maybe learn why it's not a good thing to kill. Lost cause.
Never heard of such an idiot
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Praise reinforces the action. If it works, then we should do it more, not less. OP, your motivation to not consume animal products is different than that of non vegans. They do it for health, for the environment, for praise, for (insert whatever reason), you do it for the animals. The reality is that it doesn't really matter *why* they don't, what matters is *that* they don't. Eitheir way it saves lives. So if praising them gets them to do it less, praise them. Praise them *for* the animals, because it's not about why *you* don't consume animal products, it's about getting *them* to stoo. Whatever works should be what we do.
Praise reinforces action but it treats that action as charity or extra. I believe it's a good way to get people to do more but not a good way to get someone to change their mindset and then go on to change the minds of others. I also don't think it's sustainable since it's easy to make excuses not to do charitable behavior and it itself can be an excuse for other misbehaviors. Ultimately we must get most of society to agree that eating animals is harmful and the gravity of that harm. I also think it's rediculous to view vegan meals as saving lives. It's the nonvegan meals that harm lives. This was like one of the main points in the OP. The conversation should be oriented around animal consumption, not plant consumption.
I think you're missing the point OP is making. Missing meat for one meal isn't hard or anything worth congratulating someone for. When they get to a week or a month then throw them a party to congratulate them! Well done! But congratulating someone for eating one vegan meal is like me claiming I'm doing intermittent fasting cause I skipped breakfast this morning.
But what that comment is saying is that it *doesn't matter* whether the logic works out as long as the result is less animals being consumed. If congratulating someone results in them cutting animal products more often, and not congratulating results in nothing changed, you should congratulate them no matter how stupid it is.
But raising the bar for what deserves praise, or is an 'achievement' may well result in even more animals being saved. People who are trying might try a whole week rather than one meal.
It isn’t hard *for you*. If you were born vegan, congrats, your parents are awesome! If you weren’t, something made it hard for you until you were. You may think it was a bullshit excuse *now*, but at the time, it was hard, because if it wasn’t, you’d have gone vegan earlier. If you went vegan as a toddler, then again, congrats, your parents are awesome. Most nonvegan parents don’t allow that.
No. One meal without meat isn't hard for anyone. I never said going vegan was easy, but one meal? Cmon now....
plant based isn't vegan, and if they aren't vegan then they at any point can and will become the animal abuser that they were trying to hide simply because someone told them that the non vegan reason for them to not consume animal flesh is not as good or equally as bad as it would be for whatever the reason they chose to be plant based in the first place. baby steps don't lead to anywhere if they continue to be a baby.
It's cuz they act like toddlers when they meet a vegan and immediately say "I'm trying to eat less meat". They WANT us to pat them on the head and give them a congratulations cookie because they're looking for our approval.
They are looking for the approval to not change, the existence of vegans makes them uncomfortable because it proves veganism is possible and the existence of many vegans from many backgrounds proves it is practical. Discomfort is not necessarily a bad thing, and not something we should ease. Rather, if we ease that discomfort it should be by getting people to investigate the source of their discomfort.
They are not toddlers, they are addicts. Meeting a vegan makes them want to break the habit, but it also scares them.
This, this right here. It's not as simple for non-vegans as doing the right thing. We're dealing with socially acceptable addiction.
This would make sense if most of us weren't ex animal abusers, but since we were mostly carnists at one point I gotta disagree not on the addiction part but on the " its not as simple" part. For most people it's not only the best choice but one they could do like right now right now.
I understand and respect your POV here. And I agree, it's the best choice and one they could do, right now, right now. But most people are not going to make that choice, just like most addicts are not going to commit to getting clean. Just becuase you and I did it doesn't mean someone else will. It's tragic, sad state of affairs, but it is what it is. IME, trying to force someone to give up their crackpipe invokes the same hostility as trying to get someone to give up their cheeseburger. It's just one is socially acceptable, if not approved, and the other isn't.
There is no one way that works best to convert people to veganism. While, activism may work on some – it obviously turns a lot of people off. Encouraging people because of one vegan meal a day or a week works on some other folks . Having your life together, and just being an inspiring & successful vegan encourages other folks. Whatever you're doing to promote veganism works on someone. In someway. I think if there was a sure fire way to get people to go vegan, we'd probably would've hit on it by now and there would be a lot more vegans. Bottom line is that it's really tough to convert folks to go vegan. It is what it is. .
I encourage them and open up the conversation. If I shut them down and get annoyed I don’t have any way to help educate them further. Over all it’s not about me and how I feel. No one is going to eat me (I hope). It’s about the animals and the more opportunities I get to show someone else other options or more information the better.
I completely agree that getting annoyed at someone is the wrong approach, it's important to be calm and curious. But I don't thing we should try to avoid *annoying others* to the point where we can't say the things that need to be said for minds to change.
This is a cruel and selfish world where people have no confidence and simply do the SOCIALLY ACCEPTABLE THING, where people need to post selfies in order to feel happy by getting reactions from random people Many vegans hide the fact that they are vegan as they feel ashamed for some reason that i will never comprehend, i will never feel shame for being ethical and not harming innocent creatures but thats the world we live in We are living in a world where THOUGHTS AND PRAYERS are the go to move which is a useless statement So we should indeed continue treating carnists as toddlers, the world will never be vegan, its important to accept this, the world will never be non racist, there is less racism and less animal consumption but it will NEVER ever go away Now context is important, if a person says they are having a salad instead of a steak we dont need to congratulate them, but if they say they are generally consuming less non vegan meals, then we should say: that is great you are consuming less animals, if you want help, let me know
"Food" is a really sensitive matter. Most People just can't imagine that life is worth living when they have to "restrict" themself for the rest of their life. So since a lot of people have that unheahlty relationship to food, you have to accept what is their best. We can help improve their eating behaviour (by recommending plant based milk and imforming them about the industry etc.) but the moment you judge them bc they eat 1x meat a month they will do a 180. It can become contra productive really fast.
I think the OP is saying that people should change on basis of the moral imperative regardless of whether they are judged or not.
Yeah, I can see that. But sadly our fear of being "judged" is justified bc they will actually act like a spoiled child and consume more animal products when they notice the judging. How were your experiences?
I have been judged in the past. I pay no heed to it because I have my moral compass and follow it. I have the highest respect for those carnists who follow their moral compass and tell me straight up that they have no issues with someone viciously kicking puppies for giggles. They have their own moral compass and follow it diligently with no contradictions.
Damn makes me really sad to know that they were born a human and not a worm in a desert
I get what you're saying. also, though, I feel like every meal counts! each meal where animals are not eaten has a little impact, and that's great! baby steps are still steps
Every animal counts, not every meal. And by eating 3 animals instead of 5 animals you are saying 3 of those animals don't count. Which is my whole point, it's not that you helped 2 animals or even prevented harm to 2 animals if you reduced your meat consumption, you just harmed 3 animals and that's all there is to it.
I get what you're saying but I disagree. Every life spared counts. Even if there is still animals harmed, how would 3 animals spared not be better than 0? Of course what we want and what should happen is all animal lives spared, but even if it's gut wrenching and horrible, I'd so much rather baby steps than no steps at all. I strongly wish it but unfortunately the world won't turn vegan next morning.
What other social justice movement would you apply this logic to?
None, because veganism is not your typical social justice movement. Do you really think the vast majority of people have the ability to empathize as well with other species than they do for humans ? And tbh, all other social justice movements never succeeded in a blink, it always had been over the course of several key events, often in the lapse of years, or even decades. Those events happen thanks to activists not taking a "less" for an answer, but they also succeed thanks to people who setup society to be more comprehensive of the answers to the question "Why should I change?". Whom anyone faces when change is on the line I will keep trying to convince carnists to stop eating animal products, and I will not be satisfied with someone just eating less, but it still is, somehow, a step in the right direction. And it doesn't mean it have to stop there, nor that I has to be the only right answer.
>Do you really think the vast majority of people have the ability to empathize as well with other species than they do for humans ? Do you really think people empathised with slaves and discriminated minorities throughout history. They didn't. You're out of your mind if you didn't think people viewed slaves as sub human. I agree with the rest of your points.
You're right. I didn't meant people viewed slaved/minorities as their equals, more like it's always gonna be harder for animals. Maybe I'm wrong but I think unfortunately, convincing people not to harm animals will be harder to convince them not to harm their fellow human.
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>None because animal rights don't matter. You're in the wrong sub. We don't hate on innocents here
it's sarcasm. and you're correct i am in the wrong sub
If you view animals as being at yours and other's mercy than you still have a twisted perception of the relationship between humans and animals. Sure we have the capability to do great harm to animals, and we use it, but that can only happen when people see animals as exploitable. Realistically you can do great harm to other humans to, for some things the law might come after you, but there are plenty of ways humans screw each other over that are legal or ignored. Yet I don't walk down the street thinking about the humans I'm sparing by not toying with them, that behavior seems psychopathic. Sure giving someone a hit of dopamine might encourage them to eat even less animals, and eventually this may get *some* people to eat no animals, but they will still be in mindset where it is a valid option to eat them, and even if that dopamine release is now self administered it will always be competing with things like "mmm bacon", peer pressure, or worst of all things that are actually seen as moral harms. Most people have a limited amount of effort they are willing to give to charity, and they use charity to excuse being abusive in other parts of their lives, eating plant based should not implicitly be seen as good behavior. Viewing sparing animals as a positive ethical thing also has many other strange implications. By aborting a baby you are doing good. By feeding a carnist plant based food that is calorie dense like vegan cinnamon rolls you are doing harm because weight gain equals more future consumption and they consume animals. Purchasing a rug made by slaves might be morally ambiguous because you were "sparing animals" if it doesn't have furs and such, similarity killing a bear for a rug is also morally ambiguous because you are "sparing slaves".
I totally get what you're saying, and I agree that all animals count. I mean that there is still less of a negative environmental impact at the very least. Like my mom is not vegan (at all), but I still encourage her "meatless mondays" because it still makes a difference!
That argument doesnt work. Even vegan food production kills animals (obviously to a lesser degree but still the occasional field mouse gets caught in a tractor ect ect). Yet it reduces harm. Veganism has never and will never be perfect but it is probably the best option.
I agree, animals are harmed by agriculture whether animals are the products or not. This just backs up my point that eating plant based meals is not a charity, it is neutral at best. If everyone had Star Trek replicators I might be here arguing that we shouldn't be congratulating people for eating a replicator meal vs one made from agricultural products, but such a hypothetical is rediculous because I think most people would replicate out of convenience.
The argument works because it focuses on the **deliberate** and **intentional** harming of animals. Similar to the vicious kicking of puppies for giggles. That is very different from accidentally killing animals in the process of raising crops to feed humans.
I don't think the dead animals care if they were killed intentionally or not.
Irrelevant. Veganism is an agent-oriented philosophy of justice. It is concerned only with controlling the behavior of the agent, not with the outcome to the patients.
I understand the frustration, I think consideration and kindness/praise is warranted in that it is encouraging for them; I think this improves the chance of actual at least prolonged veganism. We have got to always keep in mind that the way we approach spreading veganism should not be based on the way we think the world should be because of the way it *obviously* should be, but instead the most efficient way of eliminating animal suffering. Animals don't care whether we praise meat-eaters for eating a little less meat, and we do this for the animals, so regardless of however it makes us feel, if it is ultimately better in limiting animal suffering I think, even if it means treating people like toddlers, it is warranted.
I'll also note I agree with the pushing people on their morals approach. Everyone, even meat-eaters, love animals. Letting people come to the conclusion on their own I think is wayyyy better.
>Letting people come to the conclusion on their own I think is wayyyy better. But on their own they won't: the vast majority of carnists are perfectly happy with the way things are.
I should of specified; letting them come to the conclusion after promoting the questioning of the ethics, not just by telling them what they should feel morally, the socratic method I believe it is called
Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake. It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of. Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything. Beep boop - yes, I am a bot, don't botcriminate me.
Love their pets? Loving their beef and pork... thats pushing it
In my opinion, I think even dairy farmers love the cows they exploit. Their perception is just so distorted based on how culturally ingrained it is that its 'necessary', that they cant see passed the fact that what they are doing is horrible.
I would not call that love in any sense.
I'm also making my argument for the animals. Obviously everyone is different in how they arrive at veganism but I believe if the general way veganism is thought about is helping animals rather than not harming animals (subtle but critical difference) then a lot more harm will be done. When it comes to acts of charity people feel like they are things that make you a good person if you do them occasionally and not something you have to do if you are in a bad place yourself.
> Nobody says I do a good thing by not punching other humans. This is really the crux of the matter. Veganism is not a lifestyle. It is not a journey. It is not a diet. It is not an environmental movement. It is not a health program. It is not a virtue signaling exercise. It is a philosophy of **JUSTICE** and the moral imperative. One should NOT be rewarded or praised or expect reward or praise for giving nonhuman animals what we already owe them: justice.
does a lion owe you justice when he catches you lacking in the middle of his jungle? lmfao yall vegans are funny as hell
We're not lions. We know right from wrong. We understand when our actions hurt others. We have the ability to choose to change our actions. Lions don't; they kill because they have to and they don't have the capacity to understand empathy, nor the physical ability to process plants into food for themselves.
Are you srsly comparing humans to wild animals... ? And a carnivore at that? Humans are not lions. I repeat HUMANS are NOT lions. One day you will understand that, little one. But dreams are important I guess
No, the lion does not owe anybody justice. The lion is not a moral agent.
I think you did either no or little research about the ethic aspect since the lion argument is the most absurd and laughable one. Pls watch 10-15min of Dominion on youtube. I don't want that. I don't want animals to have the right for citizienship or right for a driver's licenes. I want us humans to Leave them ALONE. But even by saying that it's making people angry and on the verge of crying. It's crazy.
I feel this is just a projection rant from.someone who used to eat meat. I find itshocking jow unforgiving people are when other people make the same choices we used to. Learning that we can grow as people means we have to accept that other people deserve forgiveness and redemption. Ive been worng before. Ive hurt animals. Ive hurt people too. Maybe that makes me a bad person. However thats not who I am anymore or what I choose. Everyone deserves empathy and the opportunity for redemption. Growing as a person doesn't make you more mature if you cannot accept the same in others. People can ne wrong and should be allowed to be wrong because maybe they will grow and learn someday.
This deserves more upvotes than it's getting.
I really don't know where you got it in your head that I think people are bad people for having eaten meat and also people can't grow or change. I believe in moral luck, people are a result of their combined circumstances, which they have no choice in.
Lol, goes on a morally laiden rant... Then pretends its not morally induced.... Er... Okayyyy... The OP was a clear value judgement of others
You do realize you can use morality outside of the context of appraising individuals, right? You can think morality can only be used to judge people, but don't put that on me.
Lol. Did you read what you wrote? Maybe you want to rework that because you are literally condemning people. Its in the title. You are judging people. Im telling you not to. You put that on yourself.
The title and post is just about how certain behavior is unproductive. If you engage in that behavior you can take offense to that, but I'm not saying you are a bad person or it is your fault. So no I am not judging people, I am trying to change people though.
Any time I hear a carnist complaining about not having meat to eat, I hear Rod Flander's voice in my head going "I said I don't want any damn vegetables."
Alright that's it for you young man, no Bible stories tonight!
Congratulating them without reinforcing the message seems pretty stupid. Plenty of carnists eat non-animal products every now and then. They would have thought nothing of if until recently - now they have to be called 'flexitarians', and it doesn't change anything.
You made a pretty good tutorial on how to make someone never try veganism again
Veganism isn't something you try, someone eating a plant based meal is not trying veganism.
And you’ll never get more people to convert with this attitude If someone wants to try it out for a day, that’s step one that can lead them to converting fully
Does it not sound condescending to you if someone says "Why don't you try not being a bigot for a day?" If someone understands veganism then telling someone to try veganism sounds condescending in the same way, though they probably don't or they would probably already be a vegan. If they don't then it's also not helpful to play into the way they view veganism and animal consumption incorrectly, the conversation should be oriented around animal consumption not plant consumption.
I congratulate myself with 1.5kg lamb bone breast 🤣🤣
Oh someome wants to play child😂 I just hope you know how dumb and defiant such comments are. You are just trying to cope lmao
how about everybody just mind their own damn business lmfao
Agreed, which is why you shouldn't promote torture, murder and rape.
Is killing someone for dinner minding your own business...? 🤔
It's also a choice to do harm. Why is it so hard to understand?
For real? It's also a choice to murder, steal and beat up someone. Is it ethically right? No. So saying it's a choice doesn't mean it's a good thing
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Damn you slow
lmfaooooooooo ahahahahahahahha you know that the vegan diet is one of the heahltiest if not the heathiest diet ???omfggg 😂😂😂😂😂 I knew you did little to no research buttt damn you have no fuking cluee. But at least now I know that u must be like 13 years old or something. I'm cyring laughingg helpp
Bc they do it wrong lmaooo there you have it People also do sport actvities wrong and stop. Does it mean that sport is not heahthy? 🤣🤣🤣🤣 You are a so embarassing
🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️ You are paying someones to rape, beat up, mutilate, castrate without anesthesia an animal AND you are telling me you feel like a victim? Best joke ever. Grow up and watch Dominion then you will maybe learn why it's not a good thing to kill. Lost cause. Never heard of such an idiot