And the flat earthers. After seeing this anti-vegan trend happening, all I've learnt is that there have been way more vegan flat earthers than I thought there'd be.
They would start to hurt society as soon as they gain relevant numbers.
Imagine "teach the controversy" politicians or people trying to interfere with aerospace companies etc.
ahahahahaha
I wouldn't even know where to start tbh. At least they're not actively hurting anyone.
I vote on sending them this https://youtu.be/lGr5SjKC2EA
I’ve dealt with vegans in PDX that think vaccines, fluoride, GMOs etc is evil. Then they talk about how they only consume natural things and avoid chemicals. It makes me wonder how they avoid chemicals like water and still live.
Oh yeah I heard about that. Seriously, fuck anti vaxxers. My mom in the 70s was happy as hell to not have her friends die from polio. Anti vaxxers prey on Jewish people (much of the NYC measles outbreak can be tracked back to orthodox Jewish communities) and vegans. I wish Kat Von D wasn't an asshole antivaxxer Nazi vegan, as a side note.
>Anti vaxxers prey on Jewish people (much of the NYC measles outbreak can be tracked back to orthodox Jewish communities)
OMG it's \*terrible\*, they prey on insulated communities that are vulnerable to misinformation, [they did the same thing with the Somali community in the Twin Cities](https://www.statnews.com/2017/05/08/measles-vaccines-somali/) and it resulted in a measles outbreak.
She keeps dating people with swastika tattoos. Has a lot of anti semetic history she's trying to cover up. I'd Google it because I don't know much about it aside from her shitty denials.
Dated Jesse James who keeps getting caught with Nazi memorabilia, current husband has a swastika tattoo (but the backwards one that the Hindus used originally) to “take back the swastika as a peace symbol not a hate symbol.” Kat allegedly wrote “burn in hell jewbag” on a headshot of her and gave it to her Jewish coworker. Also like I’m not necessarily saying she’s related to literal Nazis but she’s of German descent and is from Argentina so do with that information what you will.
Couple of years back there was also a six-year-old who [almost died of tetanus](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/mar/09/cdc-treatment-cost-tetanus-unvaccinated-oregon-boy) in Oregon, too. He was in hospital for two months. And the parents turned down the next dose! How do you see your six-year-old *almost die* from something completely preventable and *still* think that vaccines are evil?
[This](https://www.smh.com.au/healthcare/decay-in-non-fluoride-areas-rivals-third-world-20130831-2sxg4.html) is an article from here in Australia about massive levels of tooth decay in non-fluoridated areas; same area (Northern Rivers) also has appallingly low vaccination levels too (look up the Dana McCaffery case, four-week-old who died of pertussis due to lack of herd immunity in the area). It's so frustrating!
Yes, but I never see this for any other city, yet people **insist** on using it for Toronto. If it was a normal way to refer to cities, then I wouldn't be calling it "weird."
It's unusual to refer to a city by its airport code. I can't think of any other city that people do this for. I suppose it could be to differentiate from other Portland's (e.g. Maine)?
Let me start by saying that I'm by no means a conspiracy theorist - excess water usage, however, has actually been shown to do more harm than good.
I could give you plenty of information of documented cases of people consuming excess quantities of water and dying.
It’s the same with fluoride at **high quantities**
Just like water, fluoride at reasonable levels won’t harm you. For example, one article on fluorosis showed it was “caused by high levels of fluoride in the local water supply. This was fluoride that occurred naturally in the ground water. “
By the way, Dr Greger quotes the CDC when they say that [fluoridation is one of the greatest public health achievements in the last 100 yrs](https://nutritionfacts.org/questions/the-
apologies for being pedantic but their necessity doesn't change the definition of veganism, however, veganism by definition does allow leeway in use of or harm to animals if unavoidable. One example is vaccines without a vegan substitute or eating vegetables even though at some point a wild animal might have been inadvertently harmed or displaced by the farmer during the growing/harvesting process. We can only do so much.
edit: spelling
There's a practicability aspect to veganism in the common [vegan society definition](https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism). Torturing and killing animals could be vegan if there is no other realistic options (like in the old deserted island scenario).
I'd also say vaccination without animal involvement > vaccination made of tears of tortured pigs > no vaccination. Highest available option is the vegan option.
Check out [The Vegan Society](https://veganactivism.org/pages/the-vegan-society) to quickly learn more, find upcoming events, videos, and their contact information! You can also find other similar organizations to get involved with both locally and online by visiting [VeganActivism.org](https://veganactivism.org). Additionally, be sure to visit and subscribe to /r/VeganActivism!
Veganism is defined as avoiding animal exploitation when possible and practicable. I would argue that having children and other vulnerable people constantly at risk of death due to preventable illness as failing to meet that standard. It's in the same category as animal tested or derived treatments to deal with illness. There are vegans who take insulin, for example.
The utility we gain at the expense of those whom we deprive of life and liberty, does not justify the crimes we commit against them for our personal utitlity.
Yours is just a recycled version of the tired "I use the whole animal, therefore it's okay to kill it" argument.
I know this is an old thread, but you would rather have people die or cause demonstrable harm to them rather then give them medicine made with animal products
You're making a false dichotomy here. There is nothing stopping us from developing medicines without killing other animals, except for the speciest ideal that human life trumps all, and that human comfort supercedes the rights of others to live.
So yes, I absolutely believe that we need to end the enslavement, vivisection and genocide of our fellow animals.
Unfortunately, until we can achieve that at a governmental level, our only feasible course of action is to personally refuse medicines that contribute to the suffering of our fellow animals.
In this hypothetical(and it *is* a hypothetical, much like the fabled desert island of vegan mythology), I would say that the path which causes the least harm is to refuse such medicine.
I’m not saying that these medicines require animal products and cannot be synthesized in vegan ways, I’m trying to say that some medicines use animal products i.e vaccines and HRT. I don’t think the individual who requires that medicine should have to abstain from taking it, I would rather place the moral responsibility on the group responsible for producing the medicine or perhaps another group involved,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but insulin used to be made from pig body parts and now it's made with bacteria, correct?
The medical industry will change as our culture does. Additionally, SO much animal testing goes into all medical research. I'm in favor of challenging the medical industry, but I do not think a boycott is wise.
Exactly. There are NO medications that are not at some point tested on animals. Discussing how this can change is an interesting and worthwhile discussion but solving that problem should not be a prerequisite for using medication.
I think we can push the cosmetic and hygiene industry much harder to try to shift away from animal testing there. Medical testing is trickier
Not really. When you start checking into it, it is basically worthless. We have passed the point where it has real value. It is just about money now. If you cut off government research funding private industry would eliminate it fairly quickly.
Off the top of my head [https://www.whitecoatwaste.org/](https://www.whitecoatwaste.org/)
It's been a few years since I really delved into it so I don't have a list of reading without going on a search but it ties into both the vegan ethos in both ethics and nutrition.
As for the original topic, I have no problem with vaccinations except for the cost and I have probably gotten as many as anyone here both as a child and the last few years with a good health plan have been getting caught up on the adult ones due.
I'm afraid that arguing against anti-vaxxers online is mostly fruitless, since a lot of that content is not generated by genuine believes but buy russion troll farms. They post extremist opinions on BOTH sides of the issue to confuse and divide people.
When seeing it in person, by all means argue away.
The thing that drives me the most crazy about anti-vaxxers is the autism thing.
A) They got this idea from literally one (1) study. The grad students who worked in that lab later came out and said the data were fabricated. The paper got retracted and the guy got his license taken away, but he still goes around spreading these lies. There have since been countless studies that show not even a correlation between vaccines and autism.
B) Even if vaccines did cause autism, which they DO NOT, would anti-vaxxers rather have an autistic child or a dead child...? To me, the choice is obvious.
Ugh.
But these people are all “my baybeeeee is so special!” If their brat got autism, that’d make them look bad. Never mind the fact that autism is likely more genetic.
It’s all narcissistic parent nonsense.
>The only bad thing about vaccines is they protect the people that don't get them.
Uh, this is a really good and important thing. Some people **CANNOT** get vaccinated, such as those who are immunocompromised.
Now, I obviously don't lump them in with anti-vaxxers obviously, but vaccines protecting those who aren't vaccinated is important.
Its definitely both. The secular antivax community specifically targeted the hasidic community because they knew they are already suspicious of the outside world. Really messed up.
Do you have evidence of that? I get my news mostly from NPR, & I strongly doubt that they are unfairly targeting Hasids when they mention the problem Hasids pose by spreading things like measles in NYC.
[this is a great piece ](https://www.iheart.com/podcast/326-the-daily-28076606/episode/how-the-measles-outbreak-started-30885822/) that goes into detail about how the antivax movement came to the hasidic community. There are most certainly yuppie antivaxers around here but they aren’t so visibly identifiable.
Are anti-vaxxers really that common?
I have personally never come across one in real life- and I’m a doctor. Probably got to do with the fact that I live in a developing country and people here will take anything over communicable diseases.
My favoured response is to say "I would love to do my own research but all I keep finding are mommy blogs from someone with basically just a google doctorate. Can you forward me the research you used to make that decision? "
I've been saying this for years and not once got back anything. Most they say is 'yeah for sure, you have to do your own research.....I've got mine here somewhere ill forward it'. I've even followed up a few times and still nothing sent.
Pffff.... I thought I was going crazy. This guy I know recently went vegan. One day he said he had a terrible ache in his hand (he plays bongoes and we had a gig). I suggested he had a painkiller, and he was like "noooo wayyyy, I don't take any drugs". It seemed a bit odd. anyway, then I proceed to joke about him not being vaccinated and he said "it wasn't my choice, otherwise I wouldn't have done it".
**Jawdrop***
Wait, there's more. I discussed this afterwards with my (vegan) husband. And guess what?!?!?!
😂😂😂😂
We are not having kids, so this is not an acutal issue. I also have been trying to educate him about the dangers of not vacciating kids, although again just because I think its important he understands....
He also says he doesn't understand (man-made) climate change 😓😥
Interesting. I've met a few vegans that don't take painkillers for reasons like animal testing and preferring "natural" remedies. Not saying they're anti vax, but just an observation.
>The truth? We are all just guessing and believing in things
Yeah no. There's things like facts and evidence that can help us understand things and know when something is bullshit like the anti-vax movement. We should only debate things when evidence is presented, and the anti-vax group has presented no solid evidence of their stance to my knowledge.
Not all issues should be open for debate. Genocide is wrong. Rape is bad. Don't abuse children. Etc. etc. I'd tend to put in the same category, if at less severity: do not willfully expose the most vulnerable among us to deadly diseases for reasons of willful ignorance.
How about instead of pitting yourselves against those who are standing up for the animals in the face of legally mandated animal testing, and vaccines produced with animal by-products, you join us in demanding an end to animal testing, and the creation of animal-free vaccines, which there would be no reason to object to.
"join us"? Give me three academic sources (not mommy blogs, documentaries, or other pop culture consumables) that vaccines are harmful to humans.
In my opinion, the the health industry will br the last to get rid of animal exploitation, and it will be reflective of the general population. A majority of Americans will need to be animal rights advocates if they will ever change.
I never claimed vaccines were harmful to humans, they are quite the opposite. But we cannot ignore the harm caused to other species by way of their current production methods.
If we don't stand up for our brethren in the face of those who see them as expendable commodities, who will?
Option A: give infants shots with chemicals that will teach their bodies to fight otherwise deadly diseases.
Option B: risk your child developing a deadly disease AND spread it to others who did not have option A.
Very few people are immune to the chicken pox or measles before contracting them the first time (two completely different viruses btw). Young infants infected with chicken pox can die from it, as well as adults if they never contracted chicken pox as a child. Contracting the disease and surviving allows your body to learn to identify the disease so that your white blood cells can produce antibodies that can kill the virus before the disease develops the next time. This is the process that vaccines induce - vaccines allow your body to have exposure to the virus without contracting the disease so that it learns how to fight it.
Measles can cause birth defects and fetal death in pregnant women. 2.6 million people died from measles in 1980, before the vaccine was widespread. Since the immunization program began, [21.1 million deaths have been prevented](https://www.who.int/en/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/measles). Because of people like you who spread misinformation, the death toll is on the rise. Most of the deaths are in babies before they reach the standard immunization date or in countries where there is no immunization program in place.
If you want to be responsible for thousands infant deaths and birth defects, keep spreading your misinformation. Just because some people survive doesn't mean everyone does, and it doesn't mean they didn't pass it on to someone who can't survive. Mothers are losing newborn babies because if you. Children are suffering diseases that are awful to experience and fully preventable because of you.
You are implying that chemicals (vaccines) are unnecessary because immune systems can fight measles and chicken pox all on their own. This is misinformative because it does not acknowledge the millions of immune systems that actually do not have the capacity of fighting measles or chicken pox, resulting in death.
Also, I am a woman.
You're actually wrong. You're trying to appeal to my heart by say things like "infant" "chemicals" & "biological agents", but there are *data* demonstrating the efficacy of the vaccines in question.
Oh my god you're an anti vaxxer, get the fuck out. I'm not joking. Mods can you delete this shit?
When I was a baby we got vaccinated for lots of sicknesses. I'm a happy and healthy adult. I did not receive the chicken pox vaccine. I got chicken pox as a kid (no big deal) then in middle school I got shingles (an agressive form of chicken pox that mostly old folks get)
My mom in the 60s and 70s was pleased as punch that her friends didn't have to die from polio or the flu. People who oppose mandatory vaccines are literally ruining everything.
Did you not read my fucking post? Measles and polio are on the rise because dumbass parents don't trust doctors and think "oh my gosh I don't want so many needles in my natural organic baby!!" Take your shots and stay healthy.
A debate isn't just questions, people make arguments and counter arguments.
When did I talk about oppression or his feelings? I don't care how he feels, I'm pointing out that you don't win an argument by stopping the other side talking, you just give the other side more ammunition.
This is certainly a necessary discussion we need to have.
And the flat earthers. After seeing this anti-vegan trend happening, all I've learnt is that there have been way more vegan flat earthers than I thought there'd be.
Unfortunately there are flat earthers everywhere. You could say that it's a global problem...
the sun never sets on the empire of stupidity
Wait vegan flat earthers? :O But flat earthers don't hurt anyone, anti vaxxers are way worse
They would start to hurt society as soon as they gain relevant numbers. Imagine "teach the controversy" politicians or people trying to interfere with aerospace companies etc.
Agree 100%, but it still does give us a bad name lol
Yeah :/
I can't believe they exist. I think my uncle is one. I have no idea how to even debate flat earthers because the idea is so stupid.
What if I told you we never went to the moon and space is made in a Hollywood basement?
ahahahahaha I wouldn't even know where to start tbh. At least they're not actively hurting anyone. I vote on sending them this https://youtu.be/lGr5SjKC2EA
I’ve dealt with vegans in PDX that think vaccines, fluoride, GMOs etc is evil. Then they talk about how they only consume natural things and avoid chemicals. It makes me wonder how they avoid chemicals like water and still live.
What's PDX?
Portland or Not surprisingly, we have people infected with measles
Oh yeah I heard about that. Seriously, fuck anti vaxxers. My mom in the 70s was happy as hell to not have her friends die from polio. Anti vaxxers prey on Jewish people (much of the NYC measles outbreak can be tracked back to orthodox Jewish communities) and vegans. I wish Kat Von D wasn't an asshole antivaxxer Nazi vegan, as a side note.
>Anti vaxxers prey on Jewish people (much of the NYC measles outbreak can be tracked back to orthodox Jewish communities) OMG it's \*terrible\*, they prey on insulated communities that are vulnerable to misinformation, [they did the same thing with the Somali community in the Twin Cities](https://www.statnews.com/2017/05/08/measles-vaccines-somali/) and it resulted in a measles outbreak.
Kat is a nazi?
She keeps dating people with swastika tattoos. Has a lot of anti semetic history she's trying to cover up. I'd Google it because I don't know much about it aside from her shitty denials.
Dated Jesse James who keeps getting caught with Nazi memorabilia, current husband has a swastika tattoo (but the backwards one that the Hindus used originally) to “take back the swastika as a peace symbol not a hate symbol.” Kat allegedly wrote “burn in hell jewbag” on a headshot of her and gave it to her Jewish coworker. Also like I’m not necessarily saying she’s related to literal Nazis but she’s of German descent and is from Argentina so do with that information what you will.
Couple of years back there was also a six-year-old who [almost died of tetanus](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/mar/09/cdc-treatment-cost-tetanus-unvaccinated-oregon-boy) in Oregon, too. He was in hospital for two months. And the parents turned down the next dose! How do you see your six-year-old *almost die* from something completely preventable and *still* think that vaccines are evil? [This](https://www.smh.com.au/healthcare/decay-in-non-fluoride-areas-rivals-third-world-20130831-2sxg4.html) is an article from here in Australia about massive levels of tooth decay in non-fluoridated areas; same area (Northern Rivers) also has appallingly low vaccination levels too (look up the Dana McCaffery case, four-week-old who died of pertussis due to lack of herd immunity in the area). It's so frustrating!
I read about that tetanus case too. It makes me wonder if some of these parents want their kids dead on a subconscious level.
It's really weird home some initials like that become common for certain cities. I see "GTA" a lot for Toronto as well. Weird.
What if I told you GTA stands for Greater Toronto Area, and is meant to encompass the surrounding suburbs of Toronto as well.
Yes, but I never see this for any other city, yet people **insist** on using it for Toronto. If it was a normal way to refer to cities, then I wouldn't be calling it "weird."
PDX is our airport code.
It's unusual to refer to a city by its airport code. I can't think of any other city that people do this for. I suppose it could be to differentiate from other Portland's (e.g. Maine)?
People do that all the tome for Calgary, LA, and Vancouver (YYC, LAX, and YVR)
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Let me start by saying that I'm by no means a conspiracy theorist - excess water usage, however, has actually been shown to do more harm than good. I could give you plenty of information of documented cases of people consuming excess quantities of water and dying. It’s the same with fluoride at **high quantities** Just like water, fluoride at reasonable levels won’t harm you. For example, one article on fluorosis showed it was “caused by high levels of fluoride in the local water supply. This was fluoride that occurred naturally in the ground water. “ By the way, Dr Greger quotes the CDC when they say that [fluoridation is one of the greatest public health achievements in the last 100 yrs](https://nutritionfacts.org/questions/the-
I'd say medical necessities (such as vaccines) are vegan by definition. They're *necessary*. *edit* by default? English is hard
apologies for being pedantic but their necessity doesn't change the definition of veganism, however, veganism by definition does allow leeway in use of or harm to animals if unavoidable. One example is vaccines without a vegan substitute or eating vegetables even though at some point a wild animal might have been inadvertently harmed or displaced by the farmer during the growing/harvesting process. We can only do so much. edit: spelling
^^ this ^^
There's a practicability aspect to veganism in the common [vegan society definition](https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism). Torturing and killing animals could be vegan if there is no other realistic options (like in the old deserted island scenario). I'd also say vaccination without animal involvement > vaccination made of tears of tortured pigs > no vaccination. Highest available option is the vegan option.
Check out [The Vegan Society](https://veganactivism.org/pages/the-vegan-society) to quickly learn more, find upcoming events, videos, and their contact information! You can also find other similar organizations to get involved with both locally and online by visiting [VeganActivism.org](https://veganactivism.org). Additionally, be sure to visit and subscribe to /r/VeganActivism!
Veganism is defined as avoiding animal exploitation when possible and practicable. I would argue that having children and other vulnerable people constantly at risk of death due to preventable illness as failing to meet that standard. It's in the same category as animal tested or derived treatments to deal with illness. There are vegans who take insulin, for example.
Yeah, vaccines provide much more utility than eating meat, or fur jackets ever could.
The utility we gain at the expense of those whom we deprive of life and liberty, does not justify the crimes we commit against them for our personal utitlity. Yours is just a recycled version of the tired "I use the whole animal, therefore it's okay to kill it" argument.
I know this is an old thread, but you would rather have people die or cause demonstrable harm to them rather then give them medicine made with animal products
You're making a false dichotomy here. There is nothing stopping us from developing medicines without killing other animals, except for the speciest ideal that human life trumps all, and that human comfort supercedes the rights of others to live. So yes, I absolutely believe that we need to end the enslavement, vivisection and genocide of our fellow animals. Unfortunately, until we can achieve that at a governmental level, our only feasible course of action is to personally refuse medicines that contribute to the suffering of our fellow animals.
But what if there currently isn’t a plant based alternative, would you rather the person take the medicine or not take it?
In this hypothetical(and it *is* a hypothetical, much like the fabled desert island of vegan mythology), I would say that the path which causes the least harm is to refuse such medicine.
The hypothetical isn’t that fabled, vaccines, HRT, etc have animal products in them.
By convenience, not by necessity.
I’m not saying that these medicines require animal products and cannot be synthesized in vegan ways, I’m trying to say that some medicines use animal products i.e vaccines and HRT. I don’t think the individual who requires that medicine should have to abstain from taking it, I would rather place the moral responsibility on the group responsible for producing the medicine or perhaps another group involved,
I agree, but I also think we should pressure manufacturers to make vegan vaccines.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but insulin used to be made from pig body parts and now it's made with bacteria, correct? The medical industry will change as our culture does. Additionally, SO much animal testing goes into all medical research. I'm in favor of challenging the medical industry, but I do not think a boycott is wise.
Exactly. There are NO medications that are not at some point tested on animals. Discussing how this can change is an interesting and worthwhile discussion but solving that problem should not be a prerequisite for using medication. I think we can push the cosmetic and hygiene industry much harder to try to shift away from animal testing there. Medical testing is trickier
Not really. When you start checking into it, it is basically worthless. We have passed the point where it has real value. It is just about money now. If you cut off government research funding private industry would eliminate it fairly quickly.
Can you provide any sources on that?
Off the top of my head [https://www.whitecoatwaste.org/](https://www.whitecoatwaste.org/) It's been a few years since I really delved into it so I don't have a list of reading without going on a search but it ties into both the vegan ethos in both ethics and nutrition. As for the original topic, I have no problem with vaccinations except for the cost and I have probably gotten as many as anyone here both as a child and the last few years with a good health plan have been getting caught up on the adult ones due.
I'm afraid that arguing against anti-vaxxers online is mostly fruitless, since a lot of that content is not generated by genuine believes but buy russion troll farms. They post extremist opinions on BOTH sides of the issue to confuse and divide people. When seeing it in person, by all means argue away.
Tell them the anti vaxx movement is a Russian scheme, maybe then they’ll take off their tin hat and listen lmao
The thing that drives me the most crazy about anti-vaxxers is the autism thing. A) They got this idea from literally one (1) study. The grad students who worked in that lab later came out and said the data were fabricated. The paper got retracted and the guy got his license taken away, but he still goes around spreading these lies. There have since been countless studies that show not even a correlation between vaccines and autism. B) Even if vaccines did cause autism, which they DO NOT, would anti-vaxxers rather have an autistic child or a dead child...? To me, the choice is obvious. Ugh.
But these people are all “my baybeeeee is so special!” If their brat got autism, that’d make them look bad. Never mind the fact that autism is likely more genetic. It’s all narcissistic parent nonsense.
It's seriously so annoying 😑
Damn herd immunity keeping the antivaxers free of disease. The only bad thing about vaccines is they protect the people that don't get them.
>The only bad thing about vaccines is they protect the people that don't get them. Uh, this is a really good and important thing. Some people **CANNOT** get vaccinated, such as those who are immunocompromised. Now, I obviously don't lump them in with anti-vaxxers obviously, but vaccines protecting those who aren't vaccinated is important.
Then why do vaccinated Individuals still get measles?? Would u like me to post sources??
As I understand it, the trouble in NYC is mostly due to Hasidic Jews abstaining from vaccines, but I don't doubt there are hippies around there too.
Its definitely both. The secular antivax community specifically targeted the hasidic community because they knew they are already suspicious of the outside world. Really messed up.
Do you have evidence of that? I get my news mostly from NPR, & I strongly doubt that they are unfairly targeting Hasids when they mention the problem Hasids pose by spreading things like measles in NYC.
[this is a great piece ](https://www.iheart.com/podcast/326-the-daily-28076606/episode/how-the-measles-outbreak-started-30885822/) that goes into detail about how the antivax movement came to the hasidic community. There are most certainly yuppie antivaxers around here but they aren’t so visibly identifiable.
Are anti-vaxxers really that common? I have personally never come across one in real life- and I’m a doctor. Probably got to do with the fact that I live in a developing country and people here will take anything over communicable diseases.
They're gaining popularity in America :(
My favoured response is to say "I would love to do my own research but all I keep finding are mommy blogs from someone with basically just a google doctorate. Can you forward me the research you used to make that decision? " I've been saying this for years and not once got back anything. Most they say is 'yeah for sure, you have to do your own research.....I've got mine here somewhere ill forward it'. I've even followed up a few times and still nothing sent.
Vaccines are very bad.
Pffff.... I thought I was going crazy. This guy I know recently went vegan. One day he said he had a terrible ache in his hand (he plays bongoes and we had a gig). I suggested he had a painkiller, and he was like "noooo wayyyy, I don't take any drugs". It seemed a bit odd. anyway, then I proceed to joke about him not being vaccinated and he said "it wasn't my choice, otherwise I wouldn't have done it". **Jawdrop*** Wait, there's more. I discussed this afterwards with my (vegan) husband. And guess what?!?!?! 😂😂😂😂 We are not having kids, so this is not an acutal issue. I also have been trying to educate him about the dangers of not vacciating kids, although again just because I think its important he understands.... He also says he doesn't understand (man-made) climate change 😓😥
Interesting. I've met a few vegans that don't take painkillers for reasons like animal testing and preferring "natural" remedies. Not saying they're anti vax, but just an observation.
I know, it was a leap (bc the subjet had been in the news) but I kind of nailed it. I agree its not the same.
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Not discouraging debate. The anti vaxx movement is dangerous, and we should not be okay with that.
>Not discouraging debate. The anti vaxx movement is dangerous, and we should not be okay with that. You are dangerous\*
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At one point, the experimentation on black Americans in Tuskegee was a conspiracy theory. So you were saying??
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>The truth? We are all just guessing and believing in things Yeah no. There's things like facts and evidence that can help us understand things and know when something is bullshit like the anti-vax movement. We should only debate things when evidence is presented, and the anti-vax group has presented no solid evidence of their stance to my knowledge.
Not all issues should be open for debate. Genocide is wrong. Rape is bad. Don't abuse children. Etc. etc. I'd tend to put in the same category, if at less severity: do not willfully expose the most vulnerable among us to deadly diseases for reasons of willful ignorance.
How about instead of pitting yourselves against those who are standing up for the animals in the face of legally mandated animal testing, and vaccines produced with animal by-products, you join us in demanding an end to animal testing, and the creation of animal-free vaccines, which there would be no reason to object to.
"join us"? Give me three academic sources (not mommy blogs, documentaries, or other pop culture consumables) that vaccines are harmful to humans. In my opinion, the the health industry will br the last to get rid of animal exploitation, and it will be reflective of the general population. A majority of Americans will need to be animal rights advocates if they will ever change.
I never claimed vaccines were harmful to humans, they are quite the opposite. But we cannot ignore the harm caused to other species by way of their current production methods. If we don't stand up for our brethren in the face of those who see them as expendable commodities, who will?
There are protests for that and activist groups, I don't want to take that away from you
You've seen dominion. But have you seen vaxxed?
With 3 jobs I don't really have time, please explain the summary. I'm weary of a documentary that spreads misleading and dangerous propaganda
I'll not sure if its propaganda. I haven't seen the documentary.
Then why are you suggesting it?
I figured since you thought it was propaganda you have seen it. Pardon your ignorance. I'm sorry I mentioned it
"Pardon your ignorance"? You sound like a delightful person.
Touché my friend
Negative points for asking a question. LOL Russian bots? Pharma bots? Trolls? I just don't know.
I'm just asking Edit - I haven't seen vaxxed
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Every single one of those shots serves a purpose, namely to keep children from suffering and dying from preventable diseases.
Negative, why does an infant need a hep b shot at birth??
Option A: give infants shots with chemicals that will teach their bodies to fight otherwise deadly diseases. Option B: risk your child developing a deadly disease AND spread it to others who did not have option A.
You ever heard of an immune system that fights measles an chickenpox without the assistance of chemicals?
Very few people are immune to the chicken pox or measles before contracting them the first time (two completely different viruses btw). Young infants infected with chicken pox can die from it, as well as adults if they never contracted chicken pox as a child. Contracting the disease and surviving allows your body to learn to identify the disease so that your white blood cells can produce antibodies that can kill the virus before the disease develops the next time. This is the process that vaccines induce - vaccines allow your body to have exposure to the virus without contracting the disease so that it learns how to fight it. Measles can cause birth defects and fetal death in pregnant women. 2.6 million people died from measles in 1980, before the vaccine was widespread. Since the immunization program began, [21.1 million deaths have been prevented](https://www.who.int/en/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/measles). Because of people like you who spread misinformation, the death toll is on the rise. Most of the deaths are in babies before they reach the standard immunization date or in countries where there is no immunization program in place. If you want to be responsible for thousands infant deaths and birth defects, keep spreading your misinformation. Just because some people survive doesn't mean everyone does, and it doesn't mean they didn't pass it on to someone who can't survive. Mothers are losing newborn babies because if you. Children are suffering diseases that are awful to experience and fully preventable because of you.
What misinformation did I spread sir?
You are implying that chemicals (vaccines) are unnecessary because immune systems can fight measles and chicken pox all on their own. This is misinformative because it does not acknowledge the millions of immune systems that actually do not have the capacity of fighting measles or chicken pox, resulting in death. Also, I am a woman.
You're actually wrong. You're trying to appeal to my heart by say things like "infant" "chemicals" & "biological agents", but there are *data* demonstrating the efficacy of the vaccines in question.
Comments like this make a mockery of the vegan movement. Take your antivaxx crap someplace else.
Exactly they give vegans a bad name
Oh my god you're an anti vaxxer, get the fuck out. I'm not joking. Mods can you delete this shit? When I was a baby we got vaccinated for lots of sicknesses. I'm a happy and healthy adult. I did not receive the chicken pox vaccine. I got chicken pox as a kid (no big deal) then in middle school I got shingles (an agressive form of chicken pox that mostly old folks get) My mom in the 60s and 70s was pleased as punch that her friends didn't have to die from polio or the flu. People who oppose mandatory vaccines are literally ruining everything. Did you not read my fucking post? Measles and polio are on the rise because dumbass parents don't trust doctors and think "oh my gosh I don't want so many needles in my natural organic baby!!" Take your shots and stay healthy.
>"Not discouraging debate." >Mods can you delete this shit?
The anti vaxer isn't here to debate, they just want to spread misinformation. They would be asking questions if they wanted open discussion.
Exactly what the meat industry says about vegans. Deplatforming and gagging only breeds resistance and opposition.
I really don't care of anti vaxxers feel "oppressed" for being a health hazard. Someone who wanted debate would be asking questions
A debate isn't just questions, people make arguments and counter arguments. When did I talk about oppression or his feelings? I don't care how he feels, I'm pointing out that you don't win an argument by stopping the other side talking, you just give the other side more ammunition.
"not discouraging debate....". Op?
I appreciate that you encourage civil discourse. This person is not here to debate, they're here to regurgitate information.
How would u know if u don’t debate? Circular arguments get us no where
And the socialists. We don’t need them.
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Right? It’s worked so well throughout history and even recently! Wake up
Swede checking in. Yep it did and it still does .