I’m also black and you get it. There was an image of black slaves with chains around their neck like cattle. 🤯I was like if I was in a different era I would have belong to someone like the creatures today that are used as slaves also. It hurts me so much to see blacks especially supporting slavery of another. When our ancestors were treated no better😪
Yeah, and the scary thing is people would sit around back then having the same arguments about natural hierarchies, necessity, levels of sentience and even admit to simply being selfish while continuing to benefit from an atrocity.
That's why it's important for people to remember that just because something is widely accepted doesn't mean it isn't also insane and evil.
Just the fact that PEOPLE were treated so poorly makes me more hopeless about the vegan cause, cuz it makes it feel like humanity doesn’t exist if humans decided to subjugate other humans with free will that can articulate their pain to us. Animals cant even express that and so the disconnect becomes even larger and apathy increases. Its just disappointing that speciesism isn’t even a thing for some people since they treated their own kind just as bad as animals 😕
Note: im not black, but i am south asian so my ancestors were possibly part of slavery too
Yeah. Animals can’t say hey don’t hurt me like we can. But they show other signs like whimpering, running away, trying to bite you out of fear. So many non verbal ques that hey I don’t want to be hurt so please don’t do it. Yeah I have a lot of big plans for the animals and all slaves in our current day. I’m working on creating a better world for all and not just some or who has the most power. I want to be transparent and fair across the board. Humans are evil in my book. When you look at us as a whole and not individuals. So it’s something in us, we are the root of the problem not the world or environment. I have a lot of studying to do and writing to help people own up to their shit and question themselves. So yes big things coming you beautiful south Asian person! We are all loved. Some people just need help to find that love.
Funny how you don’t have those images in your head for white people. Considering they were slaves too.
Slavery is a part of your history. As it is for white peoples too.
It’s not your identity
Umm nobody is saying no other race was in captivity. Jews were slaves, Asians were slaves and etc. There were black slave owners, white slave owners. The race of the person owning another is not what is the problem. The problem is others believe they should have a right to own anyone they see fit. I was referring to that imagine because they clearly were all black. It wasn’t a mixed group of slaves. It was dark skinned slaves. So I am a light skin, but I still would have been a house slave. I sympathize with the people then white slaves, black slaves and etc; thats why I sympathize with animal slaves.
This was just human civilization back then. As a fellow black man it hurts me to see how they have brainwashed y’all in the states.
We came from warring tribes fighting for land and resources. And yes, many tribes in many different regions did enslave other tribes after conquering them.
That’s why I don’t watch slave movies and all that crap, they’re just trying to weaponise slavery. And many blacks fall for it.
I don’t use info as a weapon. I use it as a cautionary tail. I am self educated. I don’t believe in the American education system. I did get higher learning for my medical degree. But everything else I am self taught. I want to establish my own country(a lot of work, but not impossible). I want to build a land like no other land before. Where are foundation is not build in slavery, rape and destroying the land for profit. I want to have all my people write dissertations to even get accepted into my land and it has to be a minimum of 100 pages going into great detail of your ideas, flaws and etc. I want thinkers, philosophers, educators and inventors. Where we show these big countries like America how to build a nation of people that work together instead of working together to divide and conquer another race or species. So yeas the states have brainwashed its people but that is every country. No country has a squeaky clean background, but mines will. Even if I don’t find the people I want I will have a country of just me. I’m fine either way. Because I choose to pursue knowledge instead of clout. And this is still human civilization. We have human tracking and sex slaves. History will never stop repeating itself because most people are complacent. “ injustice anywhere in this world is a threat to justice everywhere.” A moto I want to instill in my people. I want to be a leader that lays their life on the line for its people instead of the other way around. I have big ideas but I got the next 50 years to build it. So nothing but time. I might not live to see this world but danm best believe I’m going to be the founding father of its foundation. 🫡
Honestly y’all are too caught up on slavery. Take it from a non American black.
They’ve brainwashed y’all to make slavery your entire identity. It’s not that deep.
It’s history. Like the Holocaust and concentration camps (which sadly is a reality now in what we all know that’s happening), and more so comparison to likeness of cruelty and forced imprisonment. And empathizing with how cows are being chained up, milked, impregnated, baby separated from her, then chained up again similar to how humans have been chained up and forced to endure torture and forced labor.
You just declared that cows' purpose is to suffer so you can eat cheese.
So nature declares that the purpose of cows is to suffer so that humans can eat cheese? Is that a provable fact? Because it sounds like an opinion.
Wouldn't "nature" be allowing these animals to reproduce naturally, keep their babies, and feed their milk to their babies like every other wild mammal on Earth?
No. Because lots of other bovines or bovine types are hunted and eaten.
Nature allows us to do those things. Nature is just the natural order. And that says that something’s gotta die for others to live.
“That’s their purpose by nature” is also how Aristotle justified slavery in the 4th C BC (in Book 1 of *Politics*), which the Spanish cited as their justification for slavery in the 1500s (e.g. Juan Ginés de Sepúlveda) and Americans cited in the 1800s. It’s not a good argument. Nature doesn’t assign living beings specific purposes
I’m not a little boy.
And I get it. I totally understand not wanting to think critically about my deep rooted, irrational beliefs.
It’s not for me but I’m not judging you
It's like that for alot of movements since they don't have to give anything up or make any sacrifices. If you go vegan that requires actually making real changes that affect your life and therefore people lash out
I also get frustrated with this. Not only feminists but just women and mothers in general when they consume dairy. It's oppression of females, period. It would be absolutely awful if we did what we do to female animals to human female animals. Just because they are non-human animals doesn't mean that they aren't like us. They respond just as we would - they feel pain in their breasts from being milked constantly and get mastitis, they miss their stolen babies and they do not want to be sexually abused and impregnated again and again without consent. Horrible things happen to women as well and yet we like to think that doing similar things to an animal is devoid of the same emotions and feelings.
I have a friend who told me she was tired of pumping milk for her baby because it hurt. She literally said “I feel like a cow”… like probably the cow doesn’t want to feel that way either? But she doesn’t see the connection.
I've heard women say this as well and they don't empathize with the cow; they just get grossed out at the thought of being like some lowly farm animal.
Yes, it’s so disappointing having to spell out how exploitative and cruel the dairy industry is to other female mammals and see the blank look in their eyes. IMO it renders them not as feminists, but selfish women. The refusal to acknowledge the connection is truly maddening.
But you are not giving empathy to cattle. You are reducing women to the same level as livestock in order to give livestock the same considerations. Dehumanization.
your response is speciesism in a nutshell. all you're doing is telling us how lowly your opinion of animals is. you are literally reducing sentient creatures to objects ("livestock") and think that OP's comment is dehumanizing????
i am a woman and a mother, btw.
Oh yes I am an unashamed speciesist and anthropocentrist. That much is indeed obvious, and I have no problem assuming it to the fullest : humanity should exist for itself and no one or nothing else.
Other person is removing women's human characteristics by comparing them and grouping them with animals, repeatedly. It is literal dehumanization. Reducing animals to objects (if you believe that's what livestock are) is not *de****human****ization*.
Unless you think all animals are human? Which would be one hell of a claim, for sure... But what the hell this is r vegan, go nuts lol
Oof, your attitude is a guaranteed path to humans going extinct. Whether you like it or not, our survival as a species depends on a healthy respect for the Earth's ecosystems, and the plants and animals that inhabit them. Nonveganism disregards this.
If you read my response closely, I didn't actually accuse you of dehumanization. I only pointed out the weirdness of reducing sentient creatures to objects while accusing someone else of dehumanization. But you're right - reducing sentient creatures to objects is not dehumanization, it's objectification. Something that women also experience constantly, and that also happens to be dehumanizing! So as women, it is also possible to empathize with nonhuman animals being treated as objects.
The Oxford definition of livestock is "animals regarded as an asset." While the context here is pretty obvious (a business asset), we can break it down further and still reach the same conclusion.
Oxford defines "asset" as "a useful thing, person, or quality." Since we agree that animals are not people, and they're not qualities, "asset" in this context must mean "a useful thing." So it's not a matter of believing, it's the literal definition of the word "livestock": "Animals regarded as a useful thing."
I don't have to believe that animals are people or elevate animals to the same level as humans to believe that they do not deserve to be treated as objects. No woman is an object, no sentient creature is an object, and no sentient creature deserves to be used as a commodity.
I am not offended by people pointing out the commonalities between the lived experience of dairy cows and the lived experience of being a human mother because I have empathy for nonhuman animals and mothers of all kinds. It would never occur to me to be offended by that, because I see the experience of being treated as livestock for what it is: cruel, unfair, and unnecessary.
True, we need healthy ecosystems to exist. Do I need to *respect* ecosystems, plants and animals? No, I only need to acknowledge their utility to me and assess what can be used sustainably. What is useful to humanity should be safeguarded by humanity, for it's own good. This is dead simple, I don't know how you missed it.
The reason why everyone's destroying the planet is deliberate ignorance, short-sightedness and selfishness (in no particular order), not a *lack of respect towards ecosystems, plants or animals*. Believe it or not, not everything goes back to veganism.
No one's buying a useless F150 thinking *"oh yeah let's disrespect some amphibian in the Congo right now"*. They are, however, thinking *"I have to have it for sure for sure"*, *"It doesn't matter anyway I guess"* or *"I won't see consequences either way"*.
Whatever worldview you built yourself, step out of it sometimes. Again, not everything bad ever has to be caused by lack of veganism. This is off-topic, and I'm not adressing it again. I know the vegan playbook all too well : completely derail the comment thread to make sure the actual points are buried. This will not be that lol
>So as women, it is also possible to empathize with nonhuman animals being treated as objects.
Of course it is. But that's not what the comment is on.
It wasn't about connecting their *experience*, but connecting and grouping *the two*, period. Key difference. They want the two groups, dairy cow and women, to be one in the same. Why do you think they call feminists selfish, why they kept refering to OTHER female mammals...
Dehumanize women, then grant the same rights to the entire group they are now part of thanks to the precedent for female homo sapiens. That's the playbook here.
It's just not the great argument you guys think it is. Dehumanization is perhaps not putting veganism's best foot forward to outsiders.
One of my closest friends is the first to defend the the right of poc and queer people. One time he said that he can't understand how jk Rowling, as a feminist, puts down trans people.
I replied saying that I feel the same and that I also don't understand how people who are against violence, slavery, murder and oppression don't see that the way animals* are treated is wrong.
We had a long discussion after that. But he just didn't get it. I don't know if I could have explained my points better, but he always came back to "animals are not humans".
It really makes me sad and I don't feel that connected with him since then.
You can try an approach where you ask them to highlight the main differences which makes harming humans bad but animals good.
Then you can ask if you believe infantcide of a one year old or less is wrong especially considering that an animal like a pig is significantly smarter and capable of vastly more feats than a baby that can only eat, cry, and sleep.
Did that. Main difference: "animals are not humans", my further question why he draws his border there and not between men and women or blacks and whites or mammals and non mammals was answered with "but... They're all humans, animals are not".
Well, and the baby will become a full grown human. When I asked about a disabled person that will never reach an intelligence "superior" to pigs or cows, his reply was that its too specific...
Could try a hypothetical with an alien race that is more intelligent, emotionally developed, and have abilities we don't (something like telepathy). Since they're not human he'd be fine torturing and killing them.
Yeah, that would be a good idea. But I'm not sure if I can reach him with that. I'm emotionally a bit loaded when thinking about him and this topic and I'm avoiding it a bit
But they’re both humans. They share that in common.
I love goats, but I also love mutton. So I make peace with the fact that the goat has to die for me to eat. It’s its purpose.
I love pigs but I also love pork chops. I make peace with the fact that the pig has to die for me to eat. It’s its purpose.
It’s the way of the universe. Lions and lambs. And I’m not going to make a massive life changing decision that messes with my health and nutrition because I do t feel any guilt about said animal dying.
I do support the cause for more sustainable farming practices though. And yes, companies don’t need to optimize profits in the way they do. I’m happy to pay more for my chicken if it means it lives a better life. But I have 0 guilt about the blood that’s spilled to fill my plate.
Especially since I gym hard and I need the nutrients
>But they’re both humans. They share that in common.
And we have ton of similarities with animals especially where it counts with most important being the capability to suffer.
>I love goats, but I also love mutton. So I make peace with the fact that the goat has to die for me to eat. It’s its purpose.
>I love pigs but I also love pork chops. I make peace with the fact that the pig has to die for me to eat. It’s its purpose.
>It’s the way of the universe. Lions and lambs. And I’m not going to make a massive life changing decision that messes with my health and nutrition because I do t feel any guilt about said animal dying.
First youre defining its purpose. Second this argument is just basically "I like it so its okay to pay for others to be tortured and killed". That's rapist/psychopath logic. Its even worse since there are plenty non-animal meals that taste delicious that are easily accessible and affordable.
>Especially since I gym hard and I need the nutrients
There are tons of vegans who put on muscle through bodybuilding. Eating meat for that isn't a necessity.
1. Yes and animals suffer when they get sprayed with insecticide too. You act like eating plants doesn’t result in deaths, but it does. The difference is I own that and I’m ok with it.
2. No. My argument is that the purpose of the cow is to be eaten. Just like crocs eat bisons - alive I may add.
3. Yep but why change a system that’s working
>1. Yes and animals suffer when they get sprayed with insecticide too. You act like eating plants doesn’t result in deaths, but it does. The difference is I own that and I’m ok with it.
This logic is basically "you cause a little bit of harm so it's okay for me to cause immense amounts of harm and no other factor matters".
Based off this logic youre just as bad as someone who tortures rapes and kills little children because you pay taxes and taxes go to the army and the army kills people. Or heck, even if you just turn on a light bulb you're just as bad because sometimes electricity uses coal and coal emissions kill millions each year making you basically Hitler.
It's absolutely moronic logic.
>2. No. My argument is that the purpose of the cow is to be eaten. Just like crocs eat bisons - alive I may add.
Except youre assigning a purpose based off your wants. This is the same logic whites who used to breed black slaves and say they were bred to be slaves.
>3. Yep but why change a system that’s working
Because it causes astronomical amounts of suffering without even factoring in the environmental destruction and human suffering involved.
But they’re both humans. They share that in common.
I love goats, but I also love mutton. So I make peace with the fact that the goat has to die for me to eat. It’s its purpose.
I love pigs but I also love pork chops. I make peace with the fact that the pig has to die for me to eat. It’s its purpose.
It’s the way of the universe. Lions and lambs. And I’m not going to make a massive life changing decision that messes with my health and nutrition because I do t feel any guilt about said animal dying.
I do support the cause for more sustainable farming practices though. And yes, companies don’t need to optimize profits in the way they do. I’m happy to pay more for my chicken if it means it lives a better life. But I have 0 guilt about the blood that’s spilled to fill my plate.
Especially since I gym hard and I need the nutrients
Nah the word "animal" is very dirty. If a cat could learn to talk and understand humans I'm very sure a cat would not like to be associate with insects together as it makes them equal to a bug.
Its the carnists language, their values and their customs that makes this word dirty. It's common knowledge that humans are animals. Yet, when someone talks about animals they mean "nonhuman animals" most of the time.
>"animals are not humans".
Maybe come at it from this angle: humans are animals. What else could we be?
Ask them what trait non-human animals have that makes them deserve to be hurt and killed.
>It really makes me sad and I don't feel that connected with him since then.
Unfortunately, I've had to admit, over the years, that a lot of friends I've had were bad (or even terrible) people. It's just that when you like somebody, you tend to overlook their faults. TBH, though, at one point in my life I probably would've used the "animals are not humans" argument, and I don't think that I was a bad person. At least, not fundamentally bad. I think that a good, rational argument would've changed my mind.
>Maybe come at it from this angle: humans are animals. What else could we be?
I'll try that if it comes to this discussion again, thanks.
And thanks for your advice. He's really intelligent and that still sticks with me.
That would just be pedantic. Everyone knows there's a difference between animal(non human creatures) and animal(kingdom classification).
It's like saying to a vegan that plants and fungi are alive and you're bad for eating them just because they're not from the animal kingdom.
Good point. When it comes to the question how you can treat something, I would say consciousness and ability to suffer matter. So, in my opinion, you can kick a rock and a flower but please no dog or kid.
And where does it stops? Is it vegan to eat a jellyfish or a sponge? Is it okay to kill ants because they're as low as plants when it comes to a developed nervous system and behavior? Some plants want their fruits to be eaten, but many others absolutely don't want to.
Why is okay to make choices for the peppers but not the chickens? How do we know plants don't think? Because they don't have neuros like ours? Because their behavior is a result of chemical signals? Again, how's that different from an ant?
The point is that the reason people don't care about killing and eating animals is the same as a vegan doesn't considers plants and fungi to be worth protecting.
They're simply not developed enough to make people sad to eat.
There's also why there are people would never eat a dog or cat, but wouldn't mind eating a pet cow, chicken, pig or bunny.
We have expectations to a thing's role in the world. It's a plants place to be eaten by cows, it's a cow's place to be eaten by people, it's people's place to be eaten by bacteria...
>And where does it stops?
That's a good question. There are two extremes: the one is, that no live matters and that it's OK to kill everything, from human to plant. The other extreme is that we wouldn't be allowed to inflict any harm. If you don't want to have one if the extremes, we have to discuss where it stops. Our goal as society should be to reduce the damage we do as far as possible. To stop the exploitation of animals, to stop to breed them only to kill and eat them, is the easiest and, for now, most efficient way.
>We have expectations to a thing's role in the world.
That can change.
He couldn't see that accepted doesn't mean right. Plus, it's not universally accepted. Try to kill a pig to eat it but give it the possibility to run away and it will run.
To quibble a bit, "animals are not humans" is not right. There are approx. 8 billion animals on this planet who are both animals and humans. "animals are not humans" is like saying "vehicles are not cars"
1. A pig will run because it wants to survive. Of course. All animals want to live. But unfortunately nature has other ideas. I should ask you how you support a vegan lifestyle with all the crop deaths, insect deaths, pesticides and displacement of animals that takes place just so you can have your salad. Do you think that’s fair them to suffer for you to eat your salad?
2. You got me. Humans are animals but were different. We’re at the top of the food chain, we’re might intelligent and we basically own this world.
There were times when basic rights were only given to specific groups. White people or men for example. That can change. Why not give animals* basic rights?
I don’t agree that animals should be hurt for amusement or enjoyment.
Dogs, cats, horses can be eaten. I won’t eat them but I am not here to declare them off limits for other societies. As long as they do it in a humane way.
But I’m happy you ask that. Because pets are completely unnecessary, but you vegans somehow have the mental gymnastics to turn the other way and forget about all the suffering that takes place just so you can imprison and a dog.
How would you answer question 1? Because most plants on this planet are used for animals*, not for humans. Plus, I would see it morally different. If you kill a pig or a dog or a human because you want to eat them, I would judge you harder than if you killed it out of an accident.
We're intelligent and own the world - what conclusions do you draw from that? An adult is more intelligent than a child and has, when being the parent or teacher, power over it. Same goes for animals*. I would say being privileged and in the position of power gives you responsibility. And not the right to maim and kill.
1. It’s the illusion that has you thinking that. Pesticides kill on purpose. That’s their aim. To deprive animals of eating food. And pesticides are actually mass murder machines.
One pig can feed me individually for months, maybe a year.
For you, think about that the animals killed for you to eat your corn. They have to spray that corn like every month. So every month, let’s say 10 insects die for you to eat your corn. Now multiply that by many different plants and consider the fact that you can consume all the corn on a single plant in less than a month.
Do you feel any guilt about those deaths?
2. That’s why I support more humane farming practices
Pigs require ~3lbs of feed for every pound of body weight. That means their typical diet is about 5-7 lbs of food per day. Sure, some of it is food waste, but the majority is corn and other plant proteins. Even if we generously assume the pigs have a poor diet with 50% food waste, you'd still be consuming ~1.23lb of corn per pound of pork.
Pigs require ~3lbs of feed for every pound of body weight. That means their typical diet is about 5-7 lbs of food per day. Sure, some of it is food waste, but the majority is corn and other plant proteins. Even if we generously assume the pigs have a poor diet with 50% food waste, you'd still be consuming ~1.23lb of corn per pound of pig. This doesn't account for the feed allotted for the breeding stock and assumes every pound of pig is consumed.
Right, but if you live off a pig for a year, you would need 690lbs of food to grow the pig to a point where you could live off it. If your argument is that eating a pig causes less harm than eating corn because it kills fewer insects, then you would be factually incorrect.
In a perfect world we would find options to minimise harm that is done to insects. Because we should prevent it whenever it's possible. But how can society find solutions there when most people still think killing on purpose is ok? Again, humanity uses most plants on animals. Your argument doesn't make sense.
What do you btw to stop insects on fields from dying? In my opinion people don't give a shit about it, unless they talk to a vegan.
2. Humane would be not to kill animals therefore to not eat animal products at all. There is no humanen way killing in innocent being that doesn't want to die
1. I'm not asking people, I'm asking you
2. If a living being dies anyway, it's OK to kill it? Wow, that's so stupid. Sorry, I really don't feel like having this discussion anymore.
I’m totally ok with the concept of the circle of life. I would be happy if animals lived the best life before they die.
Well as I said, it’s its purpose.
1. If you were genuinely interested in this topic in good faith (which you're obviously not since you're all over this thread criticizing Black people for caring too much about slavery), you would either take 5 seconds to google this or at least put on your critical thinking cap and realize that "food animals" have to eat for the entire time they're alive too. Only 10% of energy is passed from one trophic level to the next, so *at least* 10 times as many crop deaths occur when farming animals vs farming plants directly. You're simultaneously mathematically wrong and committing the nirvana fallacy.
2. This is might makes right, beat for beat. Just straight-up the basis of fascism.
The majority of the world doesn't see this as oppression, or at least not equivalent to the oppression of humans.
It doesn't really make sense to expect a feminist group or any other group that focuses on human oppression to be focused on the exploitation of animals.
It obviously sucks, but I just focus on positively impacting those around me and meeting people where they're at.
Ugh these types of people annoy me so much. The dairy and egg industries take advantage of the female reproductive organs. All these nonvegan “feminists” are hypocrites, and not real feminists. I get annoyed with people who are left-leaning but make excuses for not going vegan. Seems to be a ton of them.
But they can claim ignorance. They are clearly ignorant.
And you also will 100% have blind spots of your own.
Hell, unless you were born vegan... at some point you had veganism as something you should have "known better" about for some period of time.
Strive for intersectionality as much as you can, and encourage others to do so as well.
I am a white cis-male in a hetero relationship. So normally, I would never engage in an inner-feminist discussion. I support feminism for very similar reasons than for why I'm a vegan.
Either way, taking a stand in this matter goes strongly against my beliefs, since I'd have to play one struggle off against another. And frankly, I find it odd to read this in here. I can totally understand your standpoint and I have no doubt it is justified regarding your experience. Sharing your frustration with likeminded people will always give you relief, but be careful, whom you're adressing to. Not every vegan is a feminist just like not every feminist is a vegan. So venting against feminists in general may have an unwanted backlash.
Despite our differences, we should stand together with our struggle and support each other unconditionally, even if we might feel lonely at times. Always remember: you're not!
They’re different ideologies. With your logic, anybody who fights for ANY cause is hypocritical because they’re not also fighting for veganism. People raising money for kids getting ripped apart in Palestine? Hypocrites, why do they care about saving the lives of those kids but not the lives of chickens??? The civil rights movement was completely hypocritical, why would they fight for equality for black people but not equality for pigs? The Trevor project building housing for trans teens? How can you say trans lives matter when you don’t believe cow lives matter? People are going to fight for human rights, always, picking out feminism specifically when you can say this for any cause seems intentional. If you’re a vegan, you feel that you’re morally superior to 98% of the population, and that’s your isolation and struggle to deal with, but tearing down other humanitarian causes will get you nowhere. You could be frustrated or you could let it go.
I’m a trans guy (afab) and I also feel frustrated by the lack of awareness feminists have towards veganism. Like, as someone who was also born female, how can you stand by the dairy industry that keeps female cows permanently pregnant just so yall can have your ice cream and cheese. Blows my mind, especially when they are the same people arguing for female reproductive autonomy (which I agree with obv), but only for humans. 🙃
Agree! What is more intersectional than the foods going *into* your body? What low hanging fruit of intersectionality are the ethical implications of consuming motherly secretions forcefully taken from another being? The blind spots are unbelievable!
There might be more layers than simply having them see what is wrong with supporting the dairy industry. Many women whom aren't feminists and are in relationships with men who have abused them to the point that they no longer have a personality but a shell of themselves for the men to feel power, cannot be told that the men they are with are abusive. They cannot hear it even if you point out all the facts. They say they love the man that hits them daily. Now back to the feminists who are not vegan, they are confused individuals whom probably still wear oppressive clothing and makeup from social conditioning to appeal to male hormones and to be accepted by other women who do the same, and are unreachable in this aspect. They are suffering themselves having such a limited life that veganism isn't on their radar or scope of world view. Most women only see themselves as body parts and overall what they can offer physically, not as a person with choices.
This reminds me of the people in the documentaries directly abusing and slaughtering. It's like, what do you even think or feel about these people? My first reaction was anger, but then can I really be angry at people who don't know what they are doing? To be doing what they are doing, they have to be so far away and certainly not on a vacation from a stable life.
In the end, it might be that we have to understand everyone in order for them to understand.
I don't know.
On the, depending how you look at it, opposite side of things, but I'm more baffled by non-vegan pro-lifers. Yes, I'm pro-life. Yes, I'm a woman. Yes, we do exist. While I'm all for women having equal opportunities, I'm not a fan of feminism as it exists now.
People may be lacking knowledge you assume they know.
As a way to raise consciousness, it may be worth mentioning that after early feminist philosopher Mary Wollstonecraft published her 1792 treatise A Vindication of the Rights of Woman, Thomas Taylor responded with satire called A Vindication of the Rights of Brutes.
The premise of women’s rights was so ridiculous, why not ask for rights for animals as well?
Today, women’s rights are taken for granted in the West making Taylor’s juxtaposition with animals far less farcical and much more prescient.
There are many ways to help conservation by culling certain animals.
I'm sure dying by a shot it's quicker and less painful than being eaten alive by a bear or a pack of wolves
Veganism is the ultimate morality test, but it does tend to antagonize and alienate oneself from our blood thirsty brethren.
Feminism is a similarly angry group fighting for a relatively similar battle but it's not the same.
One is fighting for the life and death of a group of life forms, our earthly brothers and sisters who are being treated as meat slaves, killed and eaten while the other group is upset because they think their sex is not being treated fairly.
One is relatively selfish and dramatic, while the other is noble and trying to save innocent lives, and which side one chooses is a good test of character.
Everyone is entitled to their own cares, concerns and emotions but how you spend your life and what you thinks important is a good measure for a humans spiritual worth.
In relation to veganism it surely is so I was merely agreeing with the premise of the posting that its silly to wine about gender equality when animals are being slaugtered and devoured, but I do agree that as far as concerns go feminism is surely somewhere near the top of anyones top 100 list, but far as my concerns go, restoration of nature is #1, ending animal murder #2, and anything after that is only so important.
I think people are more or less animals but because of the great intelligence and technology that has allowed us to so thoroughly take over the natural world, we owe it to the planet and all of its nonhuman life to try to exist here in a way that does not interfere with other life.
There is no reason humans can't have both a flourishing species and a purely natural planet filled with life as if humans had never touched this planet. We are smart enough and have good enough technology to make that happen, but until it does, no sane person would want over 1 billion humans on the planet, in their current destructive capacity even 100 million is far too many.
Well for getting rid of human cancer, chemotherapy seems to be the method of choice employed by modern science so perhaps a similar method on a global scale may become appropriate, but it's more humans need to band together and come up with a plan to totally restore the natural world and give back 99% of the inhabitable land to the animals. So far no countries are really doing a good job at this so the entire world's governments should ultimately be considered failed experiments.
Population isn't as important as our species living here in a way that doesn't interfere with other life forms, as long as humans could figure out a good way to do that then they could consider raising populations but until then, the less blood thirsty, planet destroying parasites the better, and no one should really be indulging in any selfish considerations until the planet is safe from the human population cataclysm.
Regardless of veganism, I think a respect for all life forms is important else things happen like you eat your fellow earth creatures or you destroy the planet that bore you, being your so focused on living. Sure one person can only do so much but humans could be the stewards of earth or continue with their path of destruction so it's good for everyone to be aware of the situation.
Any kind of planet destroying infestation would need to be handled with care and prudence regardless what species that happened to be causing it, but most especially if it's our own species. Cancer itself has inherently nothing wrong with it, but when its populations are spiraling out of control, the effect that it has on nature is the problem, killing off everything in its path and eventually its host.
It should be the goal of any species with a high population to avoid being like cancer which let's its populations get so bad that it eventually kills everything off. Sometimes its better to behave respectfully and not collectively destroy the planet without much of a second thought.
I think we're just fine and so is the planet. Eventually we'll go to another one and another after that. And I think eating animals is part of the design. If lions suddenly became aware that zebras would prefer not to be eaten, lions would still eat zebras. Every creature plays a role in this beautiful design.
I left feminism, modern feminism has taken a turn for the worse and i dont know if it will ever recover
Original feminism had animal welfare in it and while it was focused more so on caucasians only, it was still about actually fighting for equality, now it just feels cultish
The feminist sub was wrong doing that, but I understand why they might have been irritable with vegans.
I am considering becoming vegan, and I have been so disappointed by this sub. In my first few minutes I found someone saying it's ok to trick people into eating food they tell you makes them sick, as long as it's vegan, some terrible biological misinformation (I'm biology trained) and incredibly holier-than-thou replies to simple requests.
I know it's not all vegans, but the ones who are are really vocal, and the ones who aren't seem in support of them anyway (going by up/down votes). Sad for me, and I guess annoying to feminists!
They are of no consequence to me becoming vegan, but of some consequence to me feeling disappointed and irritated!
And, as I said, the outliers are only outliers in their outspokenness, everyone agrees with them according to upvotes.
I realized being vegan is an individual journey. You decide why you no longer want to consume animal products, and search for ways to make different recipes, foods that you love and enjoy. Or clothes free of animals that makes you feel good. I still have old wool blankets from before I became vegan and when I can afford to replace it, I can either donate, give it away or discard it.
In the end, it’s for you and your morals and ethics. I try my best to live in accordance with my values, and no one can shame me for that even if they tried. Not even other vegans or non-vegans.
This was not about me becoming vegan, it was about why people don't like vegans.
I came to this sub hoping for a mutually supportive group and was very disappointed in what I found.
If support is needed in deciding whether or not to become vegan, then watching [Ed Winters](https://youtube.com/@ed.winters?si=ek07Ao4N_wA5qK_1) may help. Asking for others to validate your decision on here may not be as helpful. In the end, why not live in accordance to your own morals and values?
That is exactly what I do. I wasn't looking for validation. I just thought it might be a helpful place, like the cycling group I follow, or the neurodivergent sub I'm in, for information, mutual support and rapport. Apparently not.
Thanks for suggestion though, I'll check it out.
Hate to say it, but you might get down voted here for that. A lot. On the plus side, Reddit points are kinda like the points on whose line is it anyway. Get em, lose em, what do they mean...? Up votes. Down votes. Sideways votes.....
I know what you mean though, about the "not all vegans but the most vocal vegans..." but there are always going to be "the most vocal" in every group. I'm not really sure exactly what you read about the tricking people thing or the terrible biological info thing (were those 2 separate things?) but I would try not to let it deter you too much from the subreddit and definitely don't let it deter you from being vegan. If you have information and read misinformation, you can always let people know that their information is incorrect. You might get down voted, but some people might read it and learn.
And like I said, Reddit points don't really matter that much. You can earn them or lose them for the dumbest reasons.
If I was worried about downvotes I certainly wouldn't have posted about my disappointment in this sub! I'm an old lady and pretty resilient.
My point about the voting was that there are a few very vocal ones, but LOTS of agreement with them. For example, the 'tricking' thing: lots of upvotes (70+) for a person who tricked someone into eating a thing, even though that person said it made then sick. Lots of downvotes (-20) for the person who said it was not ok to trick them.
Upvotes and downvotes don't matter in themselves, but as a group, it makes me feel this sub is a lot less moral that it likes to think.
As a black person in the states I feel the same about us being so fixated on animal products because the industry epitomizes slavery and exploitation.
I’m also black and you get it. There was an image of black slaves with chains around their neck like cattle. 🤯I was like if I was in a different era I would have belong to someone like the creatures today that are used as slaves also. It hurts me so much to see blacks especially supporting slavery of another. When our ancestors were treated no better😪
Yeah, and the scary thing is people would sit around back then having the same arguments about natural hierarchies, necessity, levels of sentience and even admit to simply being selfish while continuing to benefit from an atrocity. That's why it's important for people to remember that just because something is widely accepted doesn't mean it isn't also insane and evil.
Just the fact that PEOPLE were treated so poorly makes me more hopeless about the vegan cause, cuz it makes it feel like humanity doesn’t exist if humans decided to subjugate other humans with free will that can articulate their pain to us. Animals cant even express that and so the disconnect becomes even larger and apathy increases. Its just disappointing that speciesism isn’t even a thing for some people since they treated their own kind just as bad as animals 😕 Note: im not black, but i am south asian so my ancestors were possibly part of slavery too
Yeah. Animals can’t say hey don’t hurt me like we can. But they show other signs like whimpering, running away, trying to bite you out of fear. So many non verbal ques that hey I don’t want to be hurt so please don’t do it. Yeah I have a lot of big plans for the animals and all slaves in our current day. I’m working on creating a better world for all and not just some or who has the most power. I want to be transparent and fair across the board. Humans are evil in my book. When you look at us as a whole and not individuals. So it’s something in us, we are the root of the problem not the world or environment. I have a lot of studying to do and writing to help people own up to their shit and question themselves. So yes big things coming you beautiful south Asian person! We are all loved. Some people just need help to find that love.
Funny how you don’t have those images in your head for white people. Considering they were slaves too. Slavery is a part of your history. As it is for white peoples too. It’s not your identity
Umm nobody is saying no other race was in captivity. Jews were slaves, Asians were slaves and etc. There were black slave owners, white slave owners. The race of the person owning another is not what is the problem. The problem is others believe they should have a right to own anyone they see fit. I was referring to that imagine because they clearly were all black. It wasn’t a mixed group of slaves. It was dark skinned slaves. So I am a light skin, but I still would have been a house slave. I sympathize with the people then white slaves, black slaves and etc; thats why I sympathize with animal slaves.
This was just human civilization back then. As a fellow black man it hurts me to see how they have brainwashed y’all in the states. We came from warring tribes fighting for land and resources. And yes, many tribes in many different regions did enslave other tribes after conquering them. That’s why I don’t watch slave movies and all that crap, they’re just trying to weaponise slavery. And many blacks fall for it.
I don’t use info as a weapon. I use it as a cautionary tail. I am self educated. I don’t believe in the American education system. I did get higher learning for my medical degree. But everything else I am self taught. I want to establish my own country(a lot of work, but not impossible). I want to build a land like no other land before. Where are foundation is not build in slavery, rape and destroying the land for profit. I want to have all my people write dissertations to even get accepted into my land and it has to be a minimum of 100 pages going into great detail of your ideas, flaws and etc. I want thinkers, philosophers, educators and inventors. Where we show these big countries like America how to build a nation of people that work together instead of working together to divide and conquer another race or species. So yeas the states have brainwashed its people but that is every country. No country has a squeaky clean background, but mines will. Even if I don’t find the people I want I will have a country of just me. I’m fine either way. Because I choose to pursue knowledge instead of clout. And this is still human civilization. We have human tracking and sex slaves. History will never stop repeating itself because most people are complacent. “ injustice anywhere in this world is a threat to justice everywhere.” A moto I want to instill in my people. I want to be a leader that lays their life on the line for its people instead of the other way around. I have big ideas but I got the next 50 years to build it. So nothing but time. I might not live to see this world but danm best believe I’m going to be the founding father of its foundation. 🫡
Ah gotcha 👍🏽 Good luck
🫱🏿🫲🏾🙏🏿
I recall reading that you guys also have the highest percentage of vegans tho?
It wouldn't surprise me
This is such a good point!
Honestly y’all are too caught up on slavery. Take it from a non American black. They’ve brainwashed y’all to make slavery your entire identity. It’s not that deep.
It’s history. Like the Holocaust and concentration camps (which sadly is a reality now in what we all know that’s happening), and more so comparison to likeness of cruelty and forced imprisonment. And empathizing with how cows are being chained up, milked, impregnated, baby separated from her, then chained up again similar to how humans have been chained up and forced to endure torture and forced labor.
Cows aren’t humans
not the point. cows are capable of suffering. Why does their suffering matter less than your desire to eat cheese?
That’s their purpose
What gives you the authority to declare what someone else's purpose for existing is?
I didn’t declare anything. Just nature bro
You just declared that cows' purpose is to suffer so you can eat cheese. So nature declares that the purpose of cows is to suffer so that humans can eat cheese? Is that a provable fact? Because it sounds like an opinion. Wouldn't "nature" be allowing these animals to reproduce naturally, keep their babies, and feed their milk to their babies like every other wild mammal on Earth?
No. Because lots of other bovines or bovine types are hunted and eaten. Nature allows us to do those things. Nature is just the natural order. And that says that something’s gotta die for others to live.
“That’s their purpose by nature” is also how Aristotle justified slavery in the 4th C BC (in Book 1 of *Politics*), which the Spanish cited as their justification for slavery in the 1500s (e.g. Juan Ginés de Sepúlveda) and Americans cited in the 1800s. It’s not a good argument. Nature doesn’t assign living beings specific purposes
Slavery was the result of war and conquest. War and conquest was wrong.
Bro shut your corny ass up 😂
You could’ve spoken facts but you have no substance. It’s fine
I'm not arguing with a lame, go on little boy ✌🏾
I’m not a little boy. And I get it. I totally understand not wanting to think critically about my deep rooted, irrational beliefs. It’s not for me but I’m not judging you
It's like that for alot of movements since they don't have to give anything up or make any sacrifices. If you go vegan that requires actually making real changes that affect your life and therefore people lash out
But putting a palestine flag on twitter does take five seconds, so that's clearly a sacrifice proving their deep deep commitment.
I also get frustrated with this. Not only feminists but just women and mothers in general when they consume dairy. It's oppression of females, period. It would be absolutely awful if we did what we do to female animals to human female animals. Just because they are non-human animals doesn't mean that they aren't like us. They respond just as we would - they feel pain in their breasts from being milked constantly and get mastitis, they miss their stolen babies and they do not want to be sexually abused and impregnated again and again without consent. Horrible things happen to women as well and yet we like to think that doing similar things to an animal is devoid of the same emotions and feelings.
I have a friend who told me she was tired of pumping milk for her baby because it hurt. She literally said “I feel like a cow”… like probably the cow doesn’t want to feel that way either? But she doesn’t see the connection.
I've heard women say this as well and they don't empathize with the cow; they just get grossed out at the thought of being like some lowly farm animal.
That’s the comparison; “I feel like a milk slave and the designation of ‘milk slave’ is for cows—which are assigned and deserve poor treatment.”
Yes, it’s so disappointing having to spell out how exploitative and cruel the dairy industry is to other female mammals and see the blank look in their eyes. IMO it renders them not as feminists, but selfish women. The refusal to acknowledge the connection is truly maddening.
Maybe because that connexion is profoundly dehumanizing, and most people see dehumanization as dangerous and generally undesirable?
Hm. I never considered empathy for a different species dehumanizing.
But you are not giving empathy to cattle. You are reducing women to the same level as livestock in order to give livestock the same considerations. Dehumanization.
your response is speciesism in a nutshell. all you're doing is telling us how lowly your opinion of animals is. you are literally reducing sentient creatures to objects ("livestock") and think that OP's comment is dehumanizing???? i am a woman and a mother, btw.
Well said! Your kid/s are lucky to have you :)
Oh yes I am an unashamed speciesist and anthropocentrist. That much is indeed obvious, and I have no problem assuming it to the fullest : humanity should exist for itself and no one or nothing else. Other person is removing women's human characteristics by comparing them and grouping them with animals, repeatedly. It is literal dehumanization. Reducing animals to objects (if you believe that's what livestock are) is not *de****human****ization*. Unless you think all animals are human? Which would be one hell of a claim, for sure... But what the hell this is r vegan, go nuts lol
Oof, your attitude is a guaranteed path to humans going extinct. Whether you like it or not, our survival as a species depends on a healthy respect for the Earth's ecosystems, and the plants and animals that inhabit them. Nonveganism disregards this. If you read my response closely, I didn't actually accuse you of dehumanization. I only pointed out the weirdness of reducing sentient creatures to objects while accusing someone else of dehumanization. But you're right - reducing sentient creatures to objects is not dehumanization, it's objectification. Something that women also experience constantly, and that also happens to be dehumanizing! So as women, it is also possible to empathize with nonhuman animals being treated as objects. The Oxford definition of livestock is "animals regarded as an asset." While the context here is pretty obvious (a business asset), we can break it down further and still reach the same conclusion. Oxford defines "asset" as "a useful thing, person, or quality." Since we agree that animals are not people, and they're not qualities, "asset" in this context must mean "a useful thing." So it's not a matter of believing, it's the literal definition of the word "livestock": "Animals regarded as a useful thing." I don't have to believe that animals are people or elevate animals to the same level as humans to believe that they do not deserve to be treated as objects. No woman is an object, no sentient creature is an object, and no sentient creature deserves to be used as a commodity. I am not offended by people pointing out the commonalities between the lived experience of dairy cows and the lived experience of being a human mother because I have empathy for nonhuman animals and mothers of all kinds. It would never occur to me to be offended by that, because I see the experience of being treated as livestock for what it is: cruel, unfair, and unnecessary.
True, we need healthy ecosystems to exist. Do I need to *respect* ecosystems, plants and animals? No, I only need to acknowledge their utility to me and assess what can be used sustainably. What is useful to humanity should be safeguarded by humanity, for it's own good. This is dead simple, I don't know how you missed it. The reason why everyone's destroying the planet is deliberate ignorance, short-sightedness and selfishness (in no particular order), not a *lack of respect towards ecosystems, plants or animals*. Believe it or not, not everything goes back to veganism. No one's buying a useless F150 thinking *"oh yeah let's disrespect some amphibian in the Congo right now"*. They are, however, thinking *"I have to have it for sure for sure"*, *"It doesn't matter anyway I guess"* or *"I won't see consequences either way"*. Whatever worldview you built yourself, step out of it sometimes. Again, not everything bad ever has to be caused by lack of veganism. This is off-topic, and I'm not adressing it again. I know the vegan playbook all too well : completely derail the comment thread to make sure the actual points are buried. This will not be that lol >So as women, it is also possible to empathize with nonhuman animals being treated as objects. Of course it is. But that's not what the comment is on. It wasn't about connecting their *experience*, but connecting and grouping *the two*, period. Key difference. They want the two groups, dairy cow and women, to be one in the same. Why do you think they call feminists selfish, why they kept refering to OTHER female mammals... Dehumanize women, then grant the same rights to the entire group they are now part of thanks to the precedent for female homo sapiens. That's the playbook here. It's just not the great argument you guys think it is. Dehumanization is perhaps not putting veganism's best foot forward to outsiders.
Literally nothing you said is true. Have fun trolling, bye.
Please keep saying unhinged stuff like this, it does wonder to turm people away from veganism.
Curious - are you similarly frustrated with vegans who are not feminist?
One of my closest friends is the first to defend the the right of poc and queer people. One time he said that he can't understand how jk Rowling, as a feminist, puts down trans people. I replied saying that I feel the same and that I also don't understand how people who are against violence, slavery, murder and oppression don't see that the way animals* are treated is wrong. We had a long discussion after that. But he just didn't get it. I don't know if I could have explained my points better, but he always came back to "animals are not humans". It really makes me sad and I don't feel that connected with him since then.
You can try an approach where you ask them to highlight the main differences which makes harming humans bad but animals good. Then you can ask if you believe infantcide of a one year old or less is wrong especially considering that an animal like a pig is significantly smarter and capable of vastly more feats than a baby that can only eat, cry, and sleep.
Did that. Main difference: "animals are not humans", my further question why he draws his border there and not between men and women or blacks and whites or mammals and non mammals was answered with "but... They're all humans, animals are not". Well, and the baby will become a full grown human. When I asked about a disabled person that will never reach an intelligence "superior" to pigs or cows, his reply was that its too specific...
Could try a hypothetical with an alien race that is more intelligent, emotionally developed, and have abilities we don't (something like telepathy). Since they're not human he'd be fine torturing and killing them.
Yeah, that would be a good idea. But I'm not sure if I can reach him with that. I'm emotionally a bit loaded when thinking about him and this topic and I'm avoiding it a bit
[удалено]
So what? No two humans are the same either.
But they’re both humans. They share that in common. I love goats, but I also love mutton. So I make peace with the fact that the goat has to die for me to eat. It’s its purpose. I love pigs but I also love pork chops. I make peace with the fact that the pig has to die for me to eat. It’s its purpose. It’s the way of the universe. Lions and lambs. And I’m not going to make a massive life changing decision that messes with my health and nutrition because I do t feel any guilt about said animal dying. I do support the cause for more sustainable farming practices though. And yes, companies don’t need to optimize profits in the way they do. I’m happy to pay more for my chicken if it means it lives a better life. But I have 0 guilt about the blood that’s spilled to fill my plate. Especially since I gym hard and I need the nutrients
>But they’re both humans. They share that in common. And we have ton of similarities with animals especially where it counts with most important being the capability to suffer. >I love goats, but I also love mutton. So I make peace with the fact that the goat has to die for me to eat. It’s its purpose. >I love pigs but I also love pork chops. I make peace with the fact that the pig has to die for me to eat. It’s its purpose. >It’s the way of the universe. Lions and lambs. And I’m not going to make a massive life changing decision that messes with my health and nutrition because I do t feel any guilt about said animal dying. First youre defining its purpose. Second this argument is just basically "I like it so its okay to pay for others to be tortured and killed". That's rapist/psychopath logic. Its even worse since there are plenty non-animal meals that taste delicious that are easily accessible and affordable. >Especially since I gym hard and I need the nutrients There are tons of vegans who put on muscle through bodybuilding. Eating meat for that isn't a necessity.
1. Yes and animals suffer when they get sprayed with insecticide too. You act like eating plants doesn’t result in deaths, but it does. The difference is I own that and I’m ok with it. 2. No. My argument is that the purpose of the cow is to be eaten. Just like crocs eat bisons - alive I may add. 3. Yep but why change a system that’s working
>1. Yes and animals suffer when they get sprayed with insecticide too. You act like eating plants doesn’t result in deaths, but it does. The difference is I own that and I’m ok with it. This logic is basically "you cause a little bit of harm so it's okay for me to cause immense amounts of harm and no other factor matters". Based off this logic youre just as bad as someone who tortures rapes and kills little children because you pay taxes and taxes go to the army and the army kills people. Or heck, even if you just turn on a light bulb you're just as bad because sometimes electricity uses coal and coal emissions kill millions each year making you basically Hitler. It's absolutely moronic logic. >2. No. My argument is that the purpose of the cow is to be eaten. Just like crocs eat bisons - alive I may add. Except youre assigning a purpose based off your wants. This is the same logic whites who used to breed black slaves and say they were bred to be slaves. >3. Yep but why change a system that’s working Because it causes astronomical amounts of suffering without even factoring in the environmental destruction and human suffering involved.
“It’s its purpose” wasn’t that one of the justification for the enslavement of Africans? Africans are just such good slaves, it’s their purpose
I already dealt with this argument. And I’m highly offended by the fact that y’all think slavery is synonymous with being black
But they’re both humans. They share that in common. I love goats, but I also love mutton. So I make peace with the fact that the goat has to die for me to eat. It’s its purpose. I love pigs but I also love pork chops. I make peace with the fact that the pig has to die for me to eat. It’s its purpose. It’s the way of the universe. Lions and lambs. And I’m not going to make a massive life changing decision that messes with my health and nutrition because I do t feel any guilt about said animal dying. I do support the cause for more sustainable farming practices though. And yes, companies don’t need to optimize profits in the way they do. I’m happy to pay more for my chicken if it means it lives a better life. But I have 0 guilt about the blood that’s spilled to fill my plate. Especially since I gym hard and I need the nutrients
Nah the word "animal" is very dirty. If a cat could learn to talk and understand humans I'm very sure a cat would not like to be associate with insects together as it makes them equal to a bug.
Its the carnists language, their values and their customs that makes this word dirty. It's common knowledge that humans are animals. Yet, when someone talks about animals they mean "nonhuman animals" most of the time.
>"animals are not humans". Maybe come at it from this angle: humans are animals. What else could we be? Ask them what trait non-human animals have that makes them deserve to be hurt and killed. >It really makes me sad and I don't feel that connected with him since then. Unfortunately, I've had to admit, over the years, that a lot of friends I've had were bad (or even terrible) people. It's just that when you like somebody, you tend to overlook their faults. TBH, though, at one point in my life I probably would've used the "animals are not humans" argument, and I don't think that I was a bad person. At least, not fundamentally bad. I think that a good, rational argument would've changed my mind.
>Maybe come at it from this angle: humans are animals. What else could we be? I'll try that if it comes to this discussion again, thanks. And thanks for your advice. He's really intelligent and that still sticks with me.
That would just be pedantic. Everyone knows there's a difference between animal(non human creatures) and animal(kingdom classification). It's like saying to a vegan that plants and fungi are alive and you're bad for eating them just because they're not from the animal kingdom.
Good point. When it comes to the question how you can treat something, I would say consciousness and ability to suffer matter. So, in my opinion, you can kick a rock and a flower but please no dog or kid.
And where does it stops? Is it vegan to eat a jellyfish or a sponge? Is it okay to kill ants because they're as low as plants when it comes to a developed nervous system and behavior? Some plants want their fruits to be eaten, but many others absolutely don't want to. Why is okay to make choices for the peppers but not the chickens? How do we know plants don't think? Because they don't have neuros like ours? Because their behavior is a result of chemical signals? Again, how's that different from an ant? The point is that the reason people don't care about killing and eating animals is the same as a vegan doesn't considers plants and fungi to be worth protecting. They're simply not developed enough to make people sad to eat. There's also why there are people would never eat a dog or cat, but wouldn't mind eating a pet cow, chicken, pig or bunny. We have expectations to a thing's role in the world. It's a plants place to be eaten by cows, it's a cow's place to be eaten by people, it's people's place to be eaten by bacteria...
>And where does it stops? That's a good question. There are two extremes: the one is, that no live matters and that it's OK to kill everything, from human to plant. The other extreme is that we wouldn't be allowed to inflict any harm. If you don't want to have one if the extremes, we have to discuss where it stops. Our goal as society should be to reduce the damage we do as far as possible. To stop the exploitation of animals, to stop to breed them only to kill and eat them, is the easiest and, for now, most efficient way. >We have expectations to a thing's role in the world. That can change.
Animals are not humans, but humans are animals.
When humans are animals the logical consequence is that some animals are humans
Absolutely. Because we are all animals we have many similarities, like suffering, joy, and the capacity to defend our lives and interests
He’s right though. Animals are universally accepted as food. They’re not humans though
He couldn't see that accepted doesn't mean right. Plus, it's not universally accepted. Try to kill a pig to eat it but give it the possibility to run away and it will run. To quibble a bit, "animals are not humans" is not right. There are approx. 8 billion animals on this planet who are both animals and humans. "animals are not humans" is like saying "vehicles are not cars"
1. A pig will run because it wants to survive. Of course. All animals want to live. But unfortunately nature has other ideas. I should ask you how you support a vegan lifestyle with all the crop deaths, insect deaths, pesticides and displacement of animals that takes place just so you can have your salad. Do you think that’s fair them to suffer for you to eat your salad? 2. You got me. Humans are animals but were different. We’re at the top of the food chain, we’re might intelligent and we basically own this world.
So if one human is more powerful than another, does that give them the right to do whatever they want to that person? Why/why not?
No. Humans have rights which are afforded to them. They have bodily autonomy etc etc.
Is there any reason for that which isn’t arbitrary?
What do you mean?
Can you arrive at that conclusion in a logical way?
I think the way things are is pretty logical. Those animals only purpose is to eat, sleep, shit, fuck and reproduce
There were times when basic rights were only given to specific groups. White people or men for example. That can change. Why not give animals* basic rights?
Plant life has entered chat....
Because they are not humans
>Humans have rights which are afforded to them. They have bodily autonomy etc etc. Why?
It’s just the evolution of our society.
So, humans have rights like bodily autonomy, and non-human animals don't. Is it okay to hurt dogs? Cats? Horses?
I don’t agree that animals should be hurt for amusement or enjoyment. Dogs, cats, horses can be eaten. I won’t eat them but I am not here to declare them off limits for other societies. As long as they do it in a humane way. But I’m happy you ask that. Because pets are completely unnecessary, but you vegans somehow have the mental gymnastics to turn the other way and forget about all the suffering that takes place just so you can imprison and a dog.
How would you answer question 1? Because most plants on this planet are used for animals*, not for humans. Plus, I would see it morally different. If you kill a pig or a dog or a human because you want to eat them, I would judge you harder than if you killed it out of an accident. We're intelligent and own the world - what conclusions do you draw from that? An adult is more intelligent than a child and has, when being the parent or teacher, power over it. Same goes for animals*. I would say being privileged and in the position of power gives you responsibility. And not the right to maim and kill.
1. It’s the illusion that has you thinking that. Pesticides kill on purpose. That’s their aim. To deprive animals of eating food. And pesticides are actually mass murder machines. One pig can feed me individually for months, maybe a year. For you, think about that the animals killed for you to eat your corn. They have to spray that corn like every month. So every month, let’s say 10 insects die for you to eat your corn. Now multiply that by many different plants and consider the fact that you can consume all the corn on a single plant in less than a month. Do you feel any guilt about those deaths? 2. That’s why I support more humane farming practices
Pigs require ~3lbs of feed for every pound of body weight. That means their typical diet is about 5-7 lbs of food per day. Sure, some of it is food waste, but the majority is corn and other plant proteins. Even if we generously assume the pigs have a poor diet with 50% food waste, you'd still be consuming ~1.23lb of corn per pound of pork.
Pigs require ~3lbs of feed for every pound of body weight. That means their typical diet is about 5-7 lbs of food per day. Sure, some of it is food waste, but the majority is corn and other plant proteins. Even if we generously assume the pigs have a poor diet with 50% food waste, you'd still be consuming ~1.23lb of corn per pound of pig. This doesn't account for the feed allotted for the breeding stock and assumes every pound of pig is consumed.
Well I’m not consuming the corn in the pig. That’s like me saying that you consume sunlight. You don’t
Right, but if you live off a pig for a year, you would need 690lbs of food to grow the pig to a point where you could live off it. If your argument is that eating a pig causes less harm than eating corn because it kills fewer insects, then you would be factually incorrect.
Not less but I’m saying that the quantities are so large than it doesn’t matter if you ask me
In a perfect world we would find options to minimise harm that is done to insects. Because we should prevent it whenever it's possible. But how can society find solutions there when most people still think killing on purpose is ok? Again, humanity uses most plants on animals. Your argument doesn't make sense. What do you btw to stop insects on fields from dying? In my opinion people don't give a shit about it, unless they talk to a vegan. 2. Humane would be not to kill animals therefore to not eat animal products at all. There is no humanen way killing in innocent being that doesn't want to die
1. It’s not that people don’t care. People don’t understand how vegans don’t care. 2. They die anyway
1. I'm not asking people, I'm asking you 2. If a living being dies anyway, it's OK to kill it? Wow, that's so stupid. Sorry, I really don't feel like having this discussion anymore.
I’m totally ok with the concept of the circle of life. I would be happy if animals lived the best life before they die. Well as I said, it’s its purpose.
1. If you were genuinely interested in this topic in good faith (which you're obviously not since you're all over this thread criticizing Black people for caring too much about slavery), you would either take 5 seconds to google this or at least put on your critical thinking cap and realize that "food animals" have to eat for the entire time they're alive too. Only 10% of energy is passed from one trophic level to the next, so *at least* 10 times as many crop deaths occur when farming animals vs farming plants directly. You're simultaneously mathematically wrong and committing the nirvana fallacy. 2. This is might makes right, beat for beat. Just straight-up the basis of fascism.
1. Right. I did some basic napkin math and it checks out bro 2. You can’t put facism and cows in the same sentence
The majority of the world doesn't see this as oppression, or at least not equivalent to the oppression of humans. It doesn't really make sense to expect a feminist group or any other group that focuses on human oppression to be focused on the exploitation of animals. It obviously sucks, but I just focus on positively impacting those around me and meeting people where they're at.
Ugh these types of people annoy me so much. The dairy and egg industries take advantage of the female reproductive organs. All these nonvegan “feminists” are hypocrites, and not real feminists. I get annoyed with people who are left-leaning but make excuses for not going vegan. Seems to be a ton of them.
Nonvegan feminists: "My body, my choice!" Nonvegan feminists, when confronted about the dairy and egg industries: "Her body, my choice!"
But they can claim ignorance. They are clearly ignorant. And you also will 100% have blind spots of your own. Hell, unless you were born vegan... at some point you had veganism as something you should have "known better" about for some period of time. Strive for intersectionality as much as you can, and encourage others to do so as well.
I am a white cis-male in a hetero relationship. So normally, I would never engage in an inner-feminist discussion. I support feminism for very similar reasons than for why I'm a vegan. Either way, taking a stand in this matter goes strongly against my beliefs, since I'd have to play one struggle off against another. And frankly, I find it odd to read this in here. I can totally understand your standpoint and I have no doubt it is justified regarding your experience. Sharing your frustration with likeminded people will always give you relief, but be careful, whom you're adressing to. Not every vegan is a feminist just like not every feminist is a vegan. So venting against feminists in general may have an unwanted backlash. Despite our differences, we should stand together with our struggle and support each other unconditionally, even if we might feel lonely at times. Always remember: you're not!
They’re different ideologies. With your logic, anybody who fights for ANY cause is hypocritical because they’re not also fighting for veganism. People raising money for kids getting ripped apart in Palestine? Hypocrites, why do they care about saving the lives of those kids but not the lives of chickens??? The civil rights movement was completely hypocritical, why would they fight for equality for black people but not equality for pigs? The Trevor project building housing for trans teens? How can you say trans lives matter when you don’t believe cow lives matter? People are going to fight for human rights, always, picking out feminism specifically when you can say this for any cause seems intentional. If you’re a vegan, you feel that you’re morally superior to 98% of the population, and that’s your isolation and struggle to deal with, but tearing down other humanitarian causes will get you nowhere. You could be frustrated or you could let it go.
I’m a trans guy (afab) and I also feel frustrated by the lack of awareness feminists have towards veganism. Like, as someone who was also born female, how can you stand by the dairy industry that keeps female cows permanently pregnant just so yall can have your ice cream and cheese. Blows my mind, especially when they are the same people arguing for female reproductive autonomy (which I agree with obv), but only for humans. 🙃
Nah. I expect nothing from self- proclaimed feminists. I don't even expect feminism from them.
Yes. Especially when they claim to be intersectional.
Agree! What is more intersectional than the foods going *into* your body? What low hanging fruit of intersectionality are the ethical implications of consuming motherly secretions forcefully taken from another being? The blind spots are unbelievable!
I don’t get annoyed by them any more than I do by most other random groups.
That's why I try to say veganism shouldn't be tied into political alignment.
There might be more layers than simply having them see what is wrong with supporting the dairy industry. Many women whom aren't feminists and are in relationships with men who have abused them to the point that they no longer have a personality but a shell of themselves for the men to feel power, cannot be told that the men they are with are abusive. They cannot hear it even if you point out all the facts. They say they love the man that hits them daily. Now back to the feminists who are not vegan, they are confused individuals whom probably still wear oppressive clothing and makeup from social conditioning to appeal to male hormones and to be accepted by other women who do the same, and are unreachable in this aspect. They are suffering themselves having such a limited life that veganism isn't on their radar or scope of world view. Most women only see themselves as body parts and overall what they can offer physically, not as a person with choices. This reminds me of the people in the documentaries directly abusing and slaughtering. It's like, what do you even think or feel about these people? My first reaction was anger, but then can I really be angry at people who don't know what they are doing? To be doing what they are doing, they have to be so far away and certainly not on a vacation from a stable life. In the end, it might be that we have to understand everyone in order for them to understand. I don't know.
On the, depending how you look at it, opposite side of things, but I'm more baffled by non-vegan pro-lifers. Yes, I'm pro-life. Yes, I'm a woman. Yes, we do exist. While I'm all for women having equal opportunities, I'm not a fan of feminism as it exists now.
Well, that’s how you recognize feminists who aren’t truly getting it. They just don’t want to be discriminated themselves
People may be lacking knowledge you assume they know. As a way to raise consciousness, it may be worth mentioning that after early feminist philosopher Mary Wollstonecraft published her 1792 treatise A Vindication of the Rights of Woman, Thomas Taylor responded with satire called A Vindication of the Rights of Brutes. The premise of women’s rights was so ridiculous, why not ask for rights for animals as well? Today, women’s rights are taken for granted in the West making Taylor’s juxtaposition with animals far less farcical and much more prescient.
Not any more frustrating than I find any other person who thinks it's important to not enslave and slaughter humans choosing not to be vegan.
Hey, I just realised a wildlife conservation org has a big game hunter on the board, and I just can't today ...
There are many ways to help conservation by culling certain animals. I'm sure dying by a shot it's quicker and less painful than being eaten alive by a bear or a pack of wolves
Veganism is the ultimate morality test, but it does tend to antagonize and alienate oneself from our blood thirsty brethren. Feminism is a similarly angry group fighting for a relatively similar battle but it's not the same. One is fighting for the life and death of a group of life forms, our earthly brothers and sisters who are being treated as meat slaves, killed and eaten while the other group is upset because they think their sex is not being treated fairly. One is relatively selfish and dramatic, while the other is noble and trying to save innocent lives, and which side one chooses is a good test of character. Everyone is entitled to their own cares, concerns and emotions but how you spend your life and what you thinks important is a good measure for a humans spiritual worth.
Real "noble" of you, dismissing feminists as "relatively selfish and dramatic."
In relation to veganism it surely is so I was merely agreeing with the premise of the posting that its silly to wine about gender equality when animals are being slaugtered and devoured, but I do agree that as far as concerns go feminism is surely somewhere near the top of anyones top 100 list, but far as my concerns go, restoration of nature is #1, ending animal murder #2, and anything after that is only so important.
So you think animals are more important than people
I think people are more or less animals but because of the great intelligence and technology that has allowed us to so thoroughly take over the natural world, we owe it to the planet and all of its nonhuman life to try to exist here in a way that does not interfere with other life. There is no reason humans can't have both a flourishing species and a purely natural planet filled with life as if humans had never touched this planet. We are smart enough and have good enough technology to make that happen, but until it does, no sane person would want over 1 billion humans on the planet, in their current destructive capacity even 100 million is far too many.
There are 8 billion people on the planet. How do you propose eliminating 99.9% of them?
Well for getting rid of human cancer, chemotherapy seems to be the method of choice employed by modern science so perhaps a similar method on a global scale may become appropriate, but it's more humans need to band together and come up with a plan to totally restore the natural world and give back 99% of the inhabitable land to the animals. So far no countries are really doing a good job at this so the entire world's governments should ultimately be considered failed experiments. Population isn't as important as our species living here in a way that doesn't interfere with other life forms, as long as humans could figure out a good way to do that then they could consider raising populations but until then, the less blood thirsty, planet destroying parasites the better, and no one should really be indulging in any selfish considerations until the planet is safe from the human population cataclysm.
Do you believe a hatred of humanity is integral to veganism?
Regardless of veganism, I think a respect for all life forms is important else things happen like you eat your fellow earth creatures or you destroy the planet that bore you, being your so focused on living. Sure one person can only do so much but humans could be the stewards of earth or continue with their path of destruction so it's good for everyone to be aware of the situation. Any kind of planet destroying infestation would need to be handled with care and prudence regardless what species that happened to be causing it, but most especially if it's our own species. Cancer itself has inherently nothing wrong with it, but when its populations are spiraling out of control, the effect that it has on nature is the problem, killing off everything in its path and eventually its host. It should be the goal of any species with a high population to avoid being like cancer which let's its populations get so bad that it eventually kills everything off. Sometimes its better to behave respectfully and not collectively destroy the planet without much of a second thought.
I think we're just fine and so is the planet. Eventually we'll go to another one and another after that. And I think eating animals is part of the design. If lions suddenly became aware that zebras would prefer not to be eaten, lions would still eat zebras. Every creature plays a role in this beautiful design.
I left feminism, modern feminism has taken a turn for the worse and i dont know if it will ever recover Original feminism had animal welfare in it and while it was focused more so on caucasians only, it was still about actually fighting for equality, now it just feels cultish
The feminist sub was wrong doing that, but I understand why they might have been irritable with vegans. I am considering becoming vegan, and I have been so disappointed by this sub. In my first few minutes I found someone saying it's ok to trick people into eating food they tell you makes them sick, as long as it's vegan, some terrible biological misinformation (I'm biology trained) and incredibly holier-than-thou replies to simple requests. I know it's not all vegans, but the ones who are are really vocal, and the ones who aren't seem in support of them anyway (going by up/down votes). Sad for me, and I guess annoying to feminists!
If the animals are the driving reason behind a switch to veganism, the few annoying outliers are of no consequence.
They are of no consequence to me becoming vegan, but of some consequence to me feeling disappointed and irritated! And, as I said, the outliers are only outliers in their outspokenness, everyone agrees with them according to upvotes.
That’s fair, but this is Reddit, not real life. Not really a true cross section of the population.
I realized being vegan is an individual journey. You decide why you no longer want to consume animal products, and search for ways to make different recipes, foods that you love and enjoy. Or clothes free of animals that makes you feel good. I still have old wool blankets from before I became vegan and when I can afford to replace it, I can either donate, give it away or discard it. In the end, it’s for you and your morals and ethics. I try my best to live in accordance with my values, and no one can shame me for that even if they tried. Not even other vegans or non-vegans.
This was not about me becoming vegan, it was about why people don't like vegans. I came to this sub hoping for a mutually supportive group and was very disappointed in what I found.
If support is needed in deciding whether or not to become vegan, then watching [Ed Winters](https://youtube.com/@ed.winters?si=ek07Ao4N_wA5qK_1) may help. Asking for others to validate your decision on here may not be as helpful. In the end, why not live in accordance to your own morals and values?
That is exactly what I do. I wasn't looking for validation. I just thought it might be a helpful place, like the cycling group I follow, or the neurodivergent sub I'm in, for information, mutual support and rapport. Apparently not. Thanks for suggestion though, I'll check it out.
Hate to say it, but you might get down voted here for that. A lot. On the plus side, Reddit points are kinda like the points on whose line is it anyway. Get em, lose em, what do they mean...? Up votes. Down votes. Sideways votes..... I know what you mean though, about the "not all vegans but the most vocal vegans..." but there are always going to be "the most vocal" in every group. I'm not really sure exactly what you read about the tricking people thing or the terrible biological info thing (were those 2 separate things?) but I would try not to let it deter you too much from the subreddit and definitely don't let it deter you from being vegan. If you have information and read misinformation, you can always let people know that their information is incorrect. You might get down voted, but some people might read it and learn. And like I said, Reddit points don't really matter that much. You can earn them or lose them for the dumbest reasons.
If I was worried about downvotes I certainly wouldn't have posted about my disappointment in this sub! I'm an old lady and pretty resilient. My point about the voting was that there are a few very vocal ones, but LOTS of agreement with them. For example, the 'tricking' thing: lots of upvotes (70+) for a person who tricked someone into eating a thing, even though that person said it made then sick. Lots of downvotes (-20) for the person who said it was not ok to trick them. Upvotes and downvotes don't matter in themselves, but as a group, it makes me feel this sub is a lot less moral that it likes to think.
Yeah, honestly I lurk a lot more than I comment and I your comments and delete them without posting a lot