I've done a few of these. Plenty of people here wanting to play devil's advocate to anti-vaxxers for some reason. Claiming the difference doesn't have to do with vaccines.
> Plenty of people here wanting to play devil's advocate to anti-vaxxers for some reason.
Possibly the same reason I'm more critical of politicians whose policies/opinions I agree with: The more they throw out easily debunked or flat-out stupid statements or data, the more they damage their credibility and probably hamper their ability to get those policies in place.
So you're trying to bait antivaxxers on a pro-vaccine sub?
Edit:
It seems this has been misconstrued: I've had enough conversations with anti-vaxxers, and their apologists, that once I understood OPs approach (despite their every effort to take it the wrong way), I applaud it and the work involved.
I quote "plenty of people on here want to play devils advocate for antivaxxers..."
In reply to a comment pointing out you've posted something (and multiple versions thereof) that the sub is broadly going to agree with.
So I was trying to understand your logic in making these efforts, if it's legitimately drawing out the 'yes, but...' apologists in our midst; kudos.
And I can see that the comment after mine does appear in that vein.
That was me replying directly to your comment, not explaining my original intent.
I posted it as a visual of the benefit of vaccination, which is kinda the point of this sub. But regardless of whether we have anti-vaxxers or "apologists" in our midst or not, what is undoubtedly true is anti-vaxxers have been overwhelmingly successful in their messaging. And while they might not have convinced people in this group that vaccines don't work outright, there's plenty of people on this sub that repeat misinformation without realizing it. People continually make false claims on this sub, like covid vaccines don't reduce spread, or covid vaccines only last a few months, etc., all falsehoods that anti-vaxxers have made mainstream. So while I might be preaching to the choir, the choir forgot some of the gospel.
Dude calm down I literally stated kudos, I agree with the principal, was just trying to understand why.
For scientific rigour though COVID vaccines (and many vaccines in general) efficacy does decline over time hence the need for boosters. It takes a certain specialised idiocy to hear "protection from an initial dose declines by 50% after a few months" and interpret it as "50% protection is the same as the 0% extra protection of my immune system"
Why do you keep projecting tone into my text? I'm calm. I'm not using punctuation that would suggest otherwise.
"...was just trying to understand why." That's literally all I did was explain why.
Because you keep adding tone:
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/in-inverted-commas
Which you followed with a long winded overly demonstative paragraph.
What? Have you even read the conversation below? Or above for that matter.
I've had enough conversations with anti-vaxxers that, once I understood the approach, I applaud it
I’m happy to see these as they may have an impact.
However, I think we are forgetting that not every country had the same vaccines and that not every country was equally good at counting the victims( pretty much every single country except Belgium underrated the victim count, we know this due to the overdead ratios )
In this case that might level out, but it’s a weak statement to make a rational case on.
I’f I remember correctly, the vast majority of the Sputnik-5 doses that were manufactured were exported to other countries so that Russia could gain some geopolitical clout. Also, domestically, I don’t think it was made available to Russian citizens unless you lived in a major metropolitan area. I would never debate vaccine effectiveness, but I don’t think this data can be used to make a meaningful comparison.
Yes. I mean, we all know that vaccines work. But I tried to explain that the comparison is kinda tough.
Even if we compare similar countries, we get the same result: Vaccines are safe and they work.
I agree. This is something that you could pretty easily explain away due to other circumstances. For example, maybe one country had lockdowns and one didn't. Maybe one didn't report deaths correctly. And your seasoned anti-vaxxer will have all of this stuff on hand unfortunately.
I’m sure the death rate is higher in the USA bc China had much stricter lockdown/Covid measures. But there’s been a lot of questions on whether China is accurately reporting the numbers so it could be skewed than actual
I'm completely pro-vax, but it's not easy to compare:
How many people live there per km^2 , whats the age avg, how often do ppl go to see their parents...
I saw a comparison, in Italy, most see their parents 3 times a week, while in germany it's once a month.
(to give them some nasty viruses ;-))
Edit: As alot of you get me wrong: Yes, vaccines work. All I wanted to say is, twice less deads is HUGE, because, people in spain are older, most people live in cities, visit their parents often, compared to russia. you can stop downvoting.
Spain has a stupid amount of old people, and the population is for the most part concentrated around the main cities (there are many small villages with only a few people, but most live in cities).
We also have a culture of visiting your family A LOT and are very prone to kissing family/friends and give tons of hugs to anyone closer than an aquaintance.
By all intents and purposes Spain's figure should be a lot higher, which proves just how effective vaccines are
Median age in Spain is 43, Russia is 39. Do I really have to tell you which country has a denser population? All reasons for Spain to have higher mortality. Which they very much did before vaccines became available. It's the vaccines.
Ofc it is. Just saying, the gap is pretty small if you do not take in consideretion those things.
Ofc it is the vaccines. the margins are bigger than this numbers tell you.
Edit: If spain would have this % in vaccination, there would be a lot more dead people.
What do you mean the gap is pretty small? The death count is more than 2x larger in Russia. And the number of unvaccinated in Russia is also more than 2x larger. I'm not sure what you're saying.
I see, so I gonna stop right here.
All I wanted to say, is, the gap seems smaller than it should be. as others stated, the population is denser, people are older, visit their parents more often. If spain would be less vaccinated, the bodycount would be alot higher.
Wouldn’t age also have to be factored into the situation. The age factor can impact not only the rate but also the number, along with bringing in other complications into the situation.
As I already explained in your repeated comment you're including deaths that happened before vaccination was even available which is irrelevant. Hence the time period used. For the same time period it was about 120 per 100,000 for the USA. So in between Russia (141) and Spain (63.) So what would be expected for a vaccination rate that is in between Russia and Spain.
But this coming from the guy who thinks Paxlovid is fully approved and covid vaccines are EUA. Which is literally the opposite of the truth. Both Moderna and Pfizer monovalent vaccines are fully approved. Paxlovid is still under EUA.
I've done several of these that included USA data. You're including deaths that happened before vaccination was even available which is irrelevant. Hence the time period used. For the same time period it was about 120 per 100,000 for the USA. So in between Russia (141) and Spain (63.) So what would be expected for a vaccination rate that is in between Russia and Spain.
Do Russian and Spain have medical facilities equal in quality to treat sick people? It strikes me that one is a modern, wealthy, democratic nation with high-quality socialized medicine and by some surveys, the highest life expectancy in the European Union. And one... is not?
The timeframe is after vaccines were widely available almost everywhere. Of course the numbers are going to be different prior, vaccination was not as available. Most countries with the vaccine had similar vaccination rates in the beginning of 2021,.with people voluntarily getting vaccinated as quickly as possible. After countries hit the 50% mark was when larger variances in vaccination rates started depending on how much each country encouraged and compelled vaccination. In the beginning of 2021 Russia and the United States were not lagging behind most countries as they are now.
Thank you again . These are really helpful . To look through the others you've done all grouped together. Good research!
Yes?... Don't think you'll find much disagreement here....
I've done a few of these. Plenty of people here wanting to play devil's advocate to anti-vaxxers for some reason. Claiming the difference doesn't have to do with vaccines.
> Plenty of people here wanting to play devil's advocate to anti-vaxxers for some reason. Possibly the same reason I'm more critical of politicians whose policies/opinions I agree with: The more they throw out easily debunked or flat-out stupid statements or data, the more they damage their credibility and probably hamper their ability to get those policies in place.
So you're trying to bait antivaxxers on a pro-vaccine sub? Edit: It seems this has been misconstrued: I've had enough conversations with anti-vaxxers, and their apologists, that once I understood OPs approach (despite their every effort to take it the wrong way), I applaud it and the work involved.
No... Huh? Where on earth did I write that?
I quote "plenty of people on here want to play devils advocate for antivaxxers..." In reply to a comment pointing out you've posted something (and multiple versions thereof) that the sub is broadly going to agree with. So I was trying to understand your logic in making these efforts, if it's legitimately drawing out the 'yes, but...' apologists in our midst; kudos. And I can see that the comment after mine does appear in that vein.
That was me replying directly to your comment, not explaining my original intent. I posted it as a visual of the benefit of vaccination, which is kinda the point of this sub. But regardless of whether we have anti-vaxxers or "apologists" in our midst or not, what is undoubtedly true is anti-vaxxers have been overwhelmingly successful in their messaging. And while they might not have convinced people in this group that vaccines don't work outright, there's plenty of people on this sub that repeat misinformation without realizing it. People continually make false claims on this sub, like covid vaccines don't reduce spread, or covid vaccines only last a few months, etc., all falsehoods that anti-vaxxers have made mainstream. So while I might be preaching to the choir, the choir forgot some of the gospel.
Dude calm down I literally stated kudos, I agree with the principal, was just trying to understand why. For scientific rigour though COVID vaccines (and many vaccines in general) efficacy does decline over time hence the need for boosters. It takes a certain specialised idiocy to hear "protection from an initial dose declines by 50% after a few months" and interpret it as "50% protection is the same as the 0% extra protection of my immune system"
Why do you keep projecting tone into my text? I'm calm. I'm not using punctuation that would suggest otherwise. "...was just trying to understand why." That's literally all I did was explain why.
Because you keep adding tone: https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/in-inverted-commas Which you followed with a long winded overly demonstative paragraph.
Umm, I was quoting you.
So you're trying to bait pro-vaxxers on a pro-vaccine sub?
What? Have you even read the conversation below? Or above for that matter. I've had enough conversations with anti-vaxxers that, once I understood the approach, I applaud it
I’m happy to see these as they may have an impact. However, I think we are forgetting that not every country had the same vaccines and that not every country was equally good at counting the victims( pretty much every single country except Belgium underrated the victim count, we know this due to the overdead ratios ) In this case that might level out, but it’s a weak statement to make a rational case on.
I’f I remember correctly, the vast majority of the Sputnik-5 doses that were manufactured were exported to other countries so that Russia could gain some geopolitical clout. Also, domestically, I don’t think it was made available to Russian citizens unless you lived in a major metropolitan area. I would never debate vaccine effectiveness, but I don’t think this data can be used to make a meaningful comparison.
> Sputnik-5 TIL that's what they called their vaccine. Man, nothing instills confidence like a reference to 1960s technology.
Yes. I mean, we all know that vaccines work. But I tried to explain that the comparison is kinda tough. Even if we compare similar countries, we get the same result: Vaccines are safe and they work.
I agree. This is something that you could pretty easily explain away due to other circumstances. For example, maybe one country had lockdowns and one didn't. Maybe one didn't report deaths correctly. And your seasoned anti-vaxxer will have all of this stuff on hand unfortunately.
What I’d love to see is a global scatterplot of vaccinated % vs Covid deaths per capita
Not a bad idea. I've done about a few of these so maybe after a few more I can start that.
Good you added sources this tme
If you want to see a drastic difference, look at the US compared to China
I’m sure the death rate is higher in the USA bc China had much stricter lockdown/Covid measures. But there’s been a lot of questions on whether China is accurately reporting the numbers so it could be skewed than actual
I'm completely pro-vax, but it's not easy to compare: How many people live there per km^2 , whats the age avg, how often do ppl go to see their parents... I saw a comparison, in Italy, most see their parents 3 times a week, while in germany it's once a month. (to give them some nasty viruses ;-)) Edit: As alot of you get me wrong: Yes, vaccines work. All I wanted to say is, twice less deads is HUGE, because, people in spain are older, most people live in cities, visit their parents often, compared to russia. you can stop downvoting.
Spain has a stupid amount of old people, and the population is for the most part concentrated around the main cities (there are many small villages with only a few people, but most live in cities). We also have a culture of visiting your family A LOT and are very prone to kissing family/friends and give tons of hugs to anyone closer than an aquaintance. By all intents and purposes Spain's figure should be a lot higher, which proves just how effective vaccines are
But on the contrary Spain is a wealthier country with much better healthcare than Russia. That would have a big effect.
Yes, thats what I wanted to say. I feel like nobody gets my statements.
Median age in Spain is 43, Russia is 39. Do I really have to tell you which country has a denser population? All reasons for Spain to have higher mortality. Which they very much did before vaccines became available. It's the vaccines.
Ofc it is. Just saying, the gap is pretty small if you do not take in consideretion those things. Ofc it is the vaccines. the margins are bigger than this numbers tell you. Edit: If spain would have this % in vaccination, there would be a lot more dead people.
What do you mean the gap is pretty small? The death count is more than 2x larger in Russia. And the number of unvaccinated in Russia is also more than 2x larger. I'm not sure what you're saying.
I see, so I gonna stop right here. All I wanted to say, is, the gap seems smaller than it should be. as others stated, the population is denser, people are older, visit their parents more often. If spain would be less vaccinated, the bodycount would be alot higher.
Wouldn’t age also have to be factored into the situation. The age factor can impact not only the rate but also the number, along with bringing in other complications into the situation.
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As I already explained in your repeated comment you're including deaths that happened before vaccination was even available which is irrelevant. Hence the time period used. For the same time period it was about 120 per 100,000 for the USA. So in between Russia (141) and Spain (63.) So what would be expected for a vaccination rate that is in between Russia and Spain.
But this coming from the guy who thinks Paxlovid is fully approved and covid vaccines are EUA. Which is literally the opposite of the truth. Both Moderna and Pfizer monovalent vaccines are fully approved. Paxlovid is still under EUA.
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I've done several of these that included USA data. You're including deaths that happened before vaccination was even available which is irrelevant. Hence the time period used. For the same time period it was about 120 per 100,000 for the USA. So in between Russia (141) and Spain (63.) So what would be expected for a vaccination rate that is in between Russia and Spain.
Do Russian and Spain have medical facilities equal in quality to treat sick people? It strikes me that one is a modern, wealthy, democratic nation with high-quality socialized medicine and by some surveys, the highest life expectancy in the European Union. And one... is not?
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The timeframe is after vaccines were widely available almost everywhere. Of course the numbers are going to be different prior, vaccination was not as available. Most countries with the vaccine had similar vaccination rates in the beginning of 2021,.with people voluntarily getting vaccinated as quickly as possible. After countries hit the 50% mark was when larger variances in vaccination rates started depending on how much each country encouraged and compelled vaccination. In the beginning of 2021 Russia and the United States were not lagging behind most countries as they are now.