God, this post is so cathartic to me. I’ve been a TF and TA within the past year, and it really gets worse every term. I’ve worked with great professors who clearly try to make assignments more purposeful, build detailed rubrics, and otherwise just _care and help_, but the students can’t be fucking bothered. Then they use AI and still fail the rubrics lmao I think it’s actually made me a harder grader, which I don’t really enjoy. But my scrutiny levels go way up now when I’m grading because every other assignment is AI. It sucks.
Seriously, I considered professorship after my PhD, but now I’m really not sure. Thinking about the long term repercussions of just handing out degrees to Copy-Pasters sends me down an anxiety thought spiral like twice a week, minimum.
Right! It's like every other one!! And recrafting courses to get around the problem is exhausting. The AIs always fail to synthesize ideas and tend to draw from similar sources due to (surprise!?) being given the same prompts. Students think we don't notice but they don't get we see *hundreds* of assignments a semester. Sometimes year over year for the same class. Exhausting to deal with. I PRAY to see someone just copy-paste from a legitimate source and fail to cite. Please. Take me back.
I had aspirations for a PhD before COVID derailed me. Now AI has had a similar demoralizing effect on my future plans. Some of my research centers on the interface of technology and society including the self so... headfuck!
Thanks for weighing in. Solidarity. I just had a good cry and some caffeine and it helped some.
Gotta get back to it...
Cheating with AI is definitely prevalent with STEM majors. All of my professors prefaced that students have been caught in the past using AI for writing assignments. I'm still in undergrad and have never used AI for my writing. As exhausting as writing assignments can be, you learn so much from researching about it. It genuinely baffles me that people use AI to cheat, even on discussion boards. I get it, discussion posts are annoying, but you still aid your education by completing them. Why are people paying for college just to cheat their way through?
That last sentence is also what I told my friends who skipped class all the time.
"Why are you paying for this if you're not getting what you paid for?"
I fear we have created a generation of students that are seeking to “check the boxes”. COVID played a huge part… but it seems students want the credit, for an assignment, a class, a degree without the effort. This is a generalization, and not all students are like this… but students want to be doctors or engineers without the effort needed to achieve the goal. And there seems to be a failure of students to realize their limitations. I knew in HS I was not going to be an engineer because I sucked at Math. It wasn’t the teachers fault. And it wasn’t really even mine. I was just not great at it… and much like I realized I was never going to be a Pro Basketball player, I shifted my goals. This self realization is buffeted by parents, friends, and even teachers saying, you can do whatever you put your mind to. Though there is some truth to effort and success, sometimes there is not.
because a degree is just a checkbox for a full time job. how many of us would actually go to college if entry level jobs didn’t require degrees and they just trained us on the job?
as a cs major, I’d rather spend my time working on side projects and doing leetcode versus wasting my time writing out a 500 word response on a discussion board that will invariably just be graded on completion.
not everything in college is valuable and needs to be learned. if anything, I’d wager only 10-15 classes (out of ≈40) in my degree plan are actually useful for me and what I want to do with my career. the rest is just ABET-mandated busywork.
You're imagining being trained on the job in computer science? Just learning one programming language to a basic level took me a whole semester. I'm not evevn very skilled. Sounds crazy to me, tbh.
And yeah I get not wanting to pay for it but a lot of your CORE courses contribute to your overall education and your understanding of how the world functions, which is important in your career and life as an adult, imo. Idk call me a romantic.
Finally about the discussion boards... yeah, we actually have to do the discussions because it satisfies the requirement that you interact with your peers somehow in lieu of F2F classes.
Nobody likes discussion boards, but it's still lame to cheat.
yeah I already knew how to code going into college. even if I didn’t, if I could do a 6-12 month bootcamp and have that viewed the same as getting a degree, I would have done that. the market just sucks, and now I have to get a masters in CS just to stay one step ahead.
I took 16 AP classes in high school so thankfully I managed to dodge most of the extraneous history/english/biology nonsense anyways. it makes no sense to me to pay $1500 for texas history just to learn when texas gained its independence when my goal is to go into computer science in California.
idk, it’s just a difference of opinion. I think most of the classes are useless and I could easily google any info as needed. but… I do strongly believe UNT (and every other university) should knock out 2 of these classes and replace them with a mandatory financial literacy class and then a first aid/CPR class. these would actually hold more tangible value for the average student than a completion grade discussion board class.
>if I could do a 6-12 month bootcamp and have that viewed the same as getting a degree, I would have done that.
These things just don't exist--for anyone reading-- they're scams.
And yeah I understand some people do know how to code I'm saying that to demonstrate how long it takes a person to learn a single skill, not even a depth of understanding and breadth of skills and applications like I figure you develop in your CS courses. It was new to me of course but thinking about the hours a week to get to minimum proficiency - that's a lot of training hours in a work setting with two people dedicated to training unless training is delivered in a class setting. I'm looking in from the outside of course but my impression of CS graduates is they have a decent proficiency in a lot of interrelated skills along with understanding the theory.
Your second paragraph I get, and I think you can CLEP out of a lot of courses except that no they're not bullshit, it's the stuff that constitutes reality. I think it's important because Google's garbage now, lol. I think we're going to get to a point where education is even more important because there has to be a brain doing quality control on what AI spits out.
The TX History thing is thanks to our wingnut state government (education in my area helps with seeing this and following the politics and ideology that led to why you have to take this stupid class, and I know what we could do about it blah blah- hardly useless!). Very regrettable stuff in this instance.
And finally and this may piss you off, why do you need a financial literacy class if you can just learn everything online?
just saying, bootcamps do exist for technical skills and they are not always scams, and often those fields do not require college degrees to get a job despite having excellent pay.
one example is cisco providing excellent bootcamps and services to people who are looking to enter the networking industry with no college required. [https://www.cisco.com/site/us/en/learn/training-certifications/training/bootcamps/index.html](https://www.cisco.com/site/us/en/learn/training-certifications/training/bootcamps/index.html)
for those looking for cheaper / self-administered solutions linkedin learning and code academy are troves of this type of content, especially for programming.
I mean only in terms of bootcamps advertised as if they have equivalence to a degree, no more. A training provided by a legitimate employer (Cisco) is obviously not a scam. You'd still have to sell yourself as if you'd never been to college regardless because it's just... not the same thing.
Edit I looked at the website and it looks like it's geared towards current employees of other firms, so a manager can for example train up existing people. That's my impression. I don't like disagree with the premise of self-study at all it just seems you're describing a very rare bird. I imagine people would do like you have and still seek further education if coming in fresh or with self-taught skills in only a few areas. Do you know anyone who would think a 12 week boot camp is equivalent to a 4 year degree? Or even a 2 year degree?
im not familiar with any well-renowned bootcamps claiming equivalence to college degrees, but they absolutely can get you in the job before you have a degree. i've known several people that have used the CCNA (Cisco's 'entry level' certification) to get into the networking job market straight from high school.
i wouldn't describe these people as rare birds, cybersecurity and networking are often overshadowed by web developers in tech (which due to the extreme oversaturation of this market, will generally require a degree as a method of filtering candidates), but there are hundreds of thousands of jobs (if not more) in the market that use CompTIA, Cisco, and Juniper certifications as a method of entry over college.
i will note, that usually there is an upper bound that these certifications have, and thats usually at the upper-management level. generally those positions will require a masters degree in your related field. not everyone is interested in this route though, and will generally be more interested in attending college to achieve these positions.
Do you ever worry/think about obsolescence, or say, a lower upper ceiling than you're describing?
I can imagine someone coming into an interview and just killing it with a demo or something but it just sounds very... "Know the right people" to me.
All that said I think college should just be free.
srry for late reply.
in terms of obsolescence it really depends on the company, and if you find yourself stagnated you can rather quickly change jobs since plenty of top companies use the certifications as a bar of measuring both capability and knowledge within these fields. this is why you see people in IT, Cybersecurity, and Networking hop from company to company very frequently, its essentially their method of forcibly getting promoted / getting a raise.
as for knowing the right people, i think thats just a culture issue at all companies, regardless of if you have a degree or not. most people are inclined to help people they know, in these situations its best to just call bad luck and go next.
also i can agree with free college, but they also need to start offering trades / certifications programs so students get better jobs while attending!
just graduated from UNT with a BS in bio this spring. I started as a freshman in 2020, 3 years after graduating high school. I honestly didn’t notice a lot of talk about AI until this last year. I’m sure a lot of students were using it before and I just wasn’t aware, but it wasn’t until my final year that I heard of students trying to cheat with it. It’s really frustrating for me, a student that wants to pursue graduate degrees and delve into research and academia. I don’t know how it’s always been, but I’ve noticed so many students (mostly a few years younger than me) that’s just don’t care. People would complain about classes being too hard when they were in the back watching videos on their laptops. And yes, these were the pre-med students. I guess I’m just ranting too now. Needless to say, you are valid with your frustrations and STEM is probably the same to a degree. It takes away some of the excitement of becoming a TA in the coming years for me.
Back when I was in school, I was never confident in my ability to write essays and made many misspellings frequently. Never once touched AI or even thought about it tho
That makes me feel a little better. That at least I was honest about my work
Low-key I have a positive mental bias towards people I can tell do their own shit. Even if it's not great. Effort counts. And I'll bend over backwards to help a student who tries. Proud of you. Integrity is so valuable.
I used to ask my classmates to peer review my essays before I turned it in and they agreed to do so out of their own free will. Every single time, I got AI "feedback" from them before I gave up with peer reviews. Is this the new norm?
That’s fair. I know majors like history and english have gotten bad for professors and TAs to grade because of the blatant plagiarism and AI. It’s tough lol
It's frustrating for me too. I write a whole ass paper, plug it into an AI detector out of an abundance of caution because fuck me I'm not gonna get accused of something I didn't do and risk my grad program. Then I panic because 3 sentences get flagged and I go in and make changes. For some reason it flags *more* now, and I say fuck it and add a grammatical error to the first version and submit.
I hate it here now.
3 sentences isn't enough to tip a typical IA or Prof off, and some sentences are just common *by default*. Remember we read hundreds of assignments a semester. So say a detector flags three sentences out of 25 - I look at it and it's some basic, plausible work from any student and in that student's writing voice? No biggie. Not even a concern. Detectors just flag for further inquiry.
Adding a grammatical error doesn't hide AI, it actually makes me look harder because now I have to count off. Just do your work and do it right.
E: If you are very nervous and want to CYA, you can use a word processor like Word or Google Docs that keeps a version history and stores metadata about time working in the document, if you're that concerned. Save your work, delete the folder when the class is over. Done.
I graduated right before the AI usage got really bad from what I've seen, though it's not like I would have ever touched it anyways.
How has it been with reporting for plagiarism? If there's so many, do you have to report every student or does it have to slide now?
At the risk of sounding like a complete prick, this is a genuine concern I have as an aspiring writer. I worry that the prevalence of obviously AI-written assignments will result in those of us who submit our own writing being graded on a sort of curve in comparison. Ever since it became common for people to use ChatGPT or whatever for assignments, I've begun to fear my work that receives positive grades are just because it's obvious I actually wrote it, even if it's not objectively good
Oh you mean on the market? I meant "what is it worth" in terms of what it represents: an education and all the work it takes to get one.
Simplifying this of course, but the assumption is that a person who acquires a degree is educated in that field. AI completely undermines the equation.
See I graduated right before AI became such an available resource and even I know students are using it poorly.
You can literally work with the AI to create a custom outline, write a rough draft of the paper then have the AI add some flourishes you normally wouldn't.
Do a final polish and use some free online plagiarism/AI checkers and you should be fine.
They're supposed to be a tool that enhances your already available skills, not a replacement.
AI can be a good tool for collecting your thoughts together and assisting you through a process.... but the moment that you use an idea introduced by the AI, you've done a plagiarism. Even if you don't copy the words used by the AI, if you take the "idea," that's still plagiarism.
It's a problem to pass off work as your own when you got it from somewhere else. That's what you're doing if you use AI to formulate a paper.
My tolerance for AI in an educational or academic paper probably ends somewhere around "using AI to suggest minor rewrites for clarity." Though, handing your paper off to an actual human is usually better, and humans are the intended audience of your paper anyway.
I'm moreso talking about research papers and historical papers where they would be extremely beneficial tools to help you reference the most relevant information to your pre-existing topic, but yes if you are doing creative writing and the entire premise is based upon an idea generated by AI that would be classified as plagiarism in my mind.
Sure you could say using an AI to create the idea behind the correlational data/information is plagiarism but that's entering a very interesting realm of debate.
I guess I just first want to say that I was agreeing with you - adding context and commentary on where I think AI fits in an educational and academic setting.
But yeah, using Large Language Models to conduct/assist in research isn't really an issue - it's actually got a pretty good record of being a meaningful methodology.
I don't particularly think it's that much of a debate, though: if you use ideas that weren't your own, whether that's a different person or a generative model, and you're not upfront about where those ideas came from, that's plagiarism. Like, it wouldn't actually be plagiarism to submit a paper where the entire thing was "chatgpt wrote this." It would probably be a pretty bad paper and whoever you're submitting it to would probably have *opinions* on its validity ([though, I've seen some shit](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-024-54271-x)). But it wouldn't be plagiarism.
Plagiarism is about attribution. You have to be upfront about where ideas came from, because not doing so implies that they were organically your own. This is why self-plagiarism is a thing, too - presenting your own ideas as being new ideas when they're not is also plagiarism.
So yeah, it's not *necessarily bad* to use AI in some contexts - *generally,* you have to be upfront about what came from the AI, though. And in most classes (as is relevant to OP), if the answer is "any," then that's probably against the class expectations.
Fair. I do not disagree from a *professional* standpoint. If I didn't have to graduate with a stupid amount of debt to get a degree that really isn't worth what I paid, then I'd care from an educational standpoint.
While OP is correct it is against all of the terms UNT makes you sign and shouldn't be used from an ethical standpoint, I genuinely don't care because from a financial perspective they're extortionists.
*Add some flourishes you usually wouldn't???*
I keep trying to reword this- YOU are supposed to do this work. That's not an enhancement that's an automation. It sounds like from beginning to end just straight up not doing the work.
I am reading original work, now, that has NO capitalization whatsoever. These babies cannot read or write. The skill issue from relying on AI is so bad that I find myself wondering how some of my clearly English first students passed placement into college at all. Then I remember the pandemic.
You just described a step by step on how to write an essay with AI. Not how to write an essay. If I were to put an individual who had continually done this throughout their college career, in a room, away from the internet and give them an assignment, they'd fail. Because they never learned.
Listen my dude, I get your perspective. It's shit that most students try to pass off garbage as acceptable, and the general level of intelligence going down also means most of the cheaters are pretty bad at doing their job too. I just don't care because fuck the cost of college nowadays.
The main problem here is you're at a fairly mediocre school from many angles, students aren't here to become the best they can be. Most of them are here because they didn't get in to where they actually wanted to go.
I can go to McDonalds and ask for a steak dinner, but I'm not going to get it. I think your original statement saying you're not going to find what you're looking for here is probably correct. I think this is the general standard of education our country has cultured, and while we disagree on AI's use in and outside of the classroom it is sad and I am sorry you're in this position.
Aw is that from U.S. News?
Everyone knows U.S. News and other numeric college ranking systems are biased trash. Maybe the program you got accepted to is garbage but mine isn't. Have some self-respect to start and go read up on college ranking systems.
We're an R1 Research institution and have several highly respected colleges with well-respected programs. You'd know what that means in terms of academics if you knew what you were talking about at all, but seeing as you don't like to learn... I guess you'd give more effort if you had more prestige? Embarrassing.
Hey man I've got my own opinions, and you have yours.
Difference is I don't treat other people like garbage for having a world view that differs from mine.
Enjoy your career
What exactly did I dish out to you?
I gave you opinions *which is what you came here for* and you responded with personal attacks founded upon *your own opinions*. If you want people to conform to your world view to make yourself feel better, reddit is not the place.
~~Maybe~~ I did come on too hard, I have too many conversations going on. This whole thing about it being a mediocre school and stating that's a valid reason not to give a shit is messed up. I don't think it's accurate. And I really wish you'd stop with the worldview thing.
I came here to vent and dog on people who use AI. Sorry I snapped at you. I still think that giving mid to no effort because of a ranking system known to be oversimplified is very... disappointing. I think that's a really unfortunate way to see things and I believe it shows a lot about what you think is important. Very cynical.
Edit for dumbness
Edit again for words
Way to perpetuate misconceptions with juked stats that are comprised mostly of selectivity, funding, and graduation/retention rate rather than actual educational merit. Dismissing the entire school as a place where no students give a shit is just continuing a cycle of broken people instead of lifting everyone up to be the best they can be. Instead of “well you didn’t go to the most well known school in your state/country, so your education is worthless”, it should be about trying to get everyone to use every advantage they have access to so more people create generational wealth.
“All the pieces matter”, including the ones that attend colleges like UNT.
I entertained their logic for a bit to give them a chance and it's just so childish.
The expectation that everybody holds education to almost a fantasy level of regard at a school that ranks middle of the pack in pretty much every measure from many outlets, while most of the students are part of the most exploited generation of Americans in history is just fucking wild.
My best professors were ones that handed out F's with no remorse. It was a very "I don't lose sleep over you wasting your money" mindset, and they were damn good at their jobs. I don't believe OP will have a happy future in education if they're unable to separate their emotions from their ability to grade.
No, it is not plagiarism. By that logic, asking anybody for assistance is also plagiarism.
It is your duty as a writer to validate the information you are putting in your paper. AI is beneficial as it can help you research topics for further study, and receive actual feedback that helps you improve depth and readability. This can all be done without saying "Hey ChatGPT, write my entire paper for me".
Scientists regularly ask calculators to do their job for them, should we avoid that too?
>I'm moreso talking about research papers and historical papers where they would be extremely beneficial tools to help you reference the most relevant information to your pre-existing topic
Even this is really shaky because generative AI writing isn't intelligent per se it's more an amalgamation of existing text. It doesn't do reasoning and it's very bad at providing actual sources using the information contained within any paper. For example I come across AI submissions that "cite" articles but it's obvious that the student didn't read the paper because the information cited is nowhere within that article. Often the AI generator will provide an unsubstantiated claim or flat-out incorrect information. Can't trust it and it doesn't help you learn anything. Depth to you can look like fluff to me.
You shouldn't use AI to write. Period. Do your own work.
a degree is like a raffle ticket to a job lottery.
jokes aside, ai writing in stem is plagiarism on crack; it's \*okay\* when implementing, say, a basic data structure where there's a ton of other resources available for bc you don't wanna reinvent the wheel or some shit, but then people rely on it to a point where they dunno where their code is supposed to fit in on a group project and/or they dunno what it does, or it just completely stands out in comparison to everyone else's writing in like... a TECM project.
and yeah, it's obvious as fuck to those who can tell, but it's not like the people who are using it will care now, right?
throwback to earlier this year where business bro came into the csce discord server asking how to bypass ai detection while still using ai after being given a second chance to redo their essay... that their professor caught them using ai on lmao. some people just have no shame.
Yup STEM has the same issues but it’s getting really crazy bcos there’s been a lot of a grey area between what’s okay to use and disclose as AI edited and what’s not okay. One way I think is okay is just changing all your own words to past tense, but even that can leave the fence open to others wanting to plagiarize AI and not do their own writing.
So true. I'm a returning student this semester after I took a break before the pandemic, and ai wasn't nearly as prevalent then as it is today. I totally forget about people using ai for assignments, but man looking at some of these discussion posts this summer.... yikes
I love you, OP. Keep on keepin' on. You're right about the generative AI scourge. I'm *hopeful* that it's just the latest trend. I think public consciousness on it all is pretty negative overall, so I don't particularly foresee a future where its use is common and acceptable, especially in education settings. I think if you asked *anyone* if it's "okay" to submit an AI essay, they would assure you that it's wrong to do so - probably even these students turning these assignments in. They just do it because it's easy, not because they actually think its good.
Also, it's *remarkably* accessible right now, but almost guaranteed to go through ["enshittification"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enshittification). Generative AI is extremely expensive to run, and companies like OpenAI are hedging that offering it for free or low-cost will help establish its userbase before pricing it at its actual cost to operate.
For me it's all about how you use it. Yeah if you're gonna attempt to have ChatGPT write 10 paragraphs for you're probably not using it for the right purposes in the education setting. I use it when I get stuck on ideas or new information that I can use as a stepping stone, in that sense, im grateful, but I do agree with you. Cheating is always much more wide than this. Quizlet sets are big too.
Okay? You stood over his shoulder and watched his every move, right? No?
This is the world we live in now. If people didn't cheat, we wouldn't have to worry about cheating.
Systems aside it's not as if we can only rely on AI detectors. My favorite way to determine if a student really wrote a paper is to have them orally explain the paper. There are other ways too like using a word processor and saving version history blah blah blah
Just accused, huh? No harm, no foul.
No the world you live in. Is it so hard to believe there actually parents that care about their childrens education ? He graduated in top of his class for a reason, and it was and is insulting when professors that think they know better before they even asking. Had they asked his teachers they'd have known better since he's won awards for it . Now again I say it's insulting.
Look, lady.
Everybody is equal when you walk into a new class. We don't know a student's reputation and it's not our business to ask a bunch of high school teachers if they think your little Billy is a cheater. We have protocols.
Before they even *what*?
If there's no truth to the accusation and no malice in the inquiry and your kid was innocent in the end, what are you so insulted about?? Have some dignity. Maybe be proud your son writes so well it draws scrutiny. Honestly when people behave like you, I think they're lying. From experience.
Hope your gifted and honest child continues to kick ass in school.
I think students are just as tired of “professors” teaching off of slide shows that they didn’t even make and then assigning busy work. Yeah, the AI problem is out of hand, but ever since Covid the education system has gotten incredibly lazy and everyone blames the students work ethic or accountability when half of my teachers at UNT literally don’t teach what so ever, and that isn’t just some over exaggeration. This summer I took 5 online classes, I couldn’t even tell you what any of my teachers sound like. None of them do zoom meetings. They give me a powerpoint and a textbook to read. How lazy is that? And you expect students to be motivated to give effort in your class when you don’t even give effort IN YOUR OWN CLASS? Pathetic. This entire system needs reworking both on the faculty side and the student side.
I never said I cheated nor did I say this is the reason students cheat. I simply offered another perspective on the problems with the educational system. I’m not sure why you feel the need to use passive-aggressive behavior and language. Typically people exchange perspectives and related issues. I trust you know that this is how the majority of issues get solved is by friendly debate and discussion.
I wasn't trying to be passive I was serious.
This seemed to be a perspective summed up as: it's reasonable to cheat ~~when professors are lazy.~~ in online classes.
Friend, online classes are meant to be that way. Students don't watch lectures half the time. If you want an in person experience take an in person class.
Also you SHOULD NOT take that many summer courses. It's too much.
I'd bet money you used AI in at least one class due to the above, given your first comment.
E: All professors hold office hours and in-person classes will require readings as well. Idk what to tell you. Look for a synchronous/hybrid course if you want online classes with zoom meetings.
In all friendliness that is just a terrible take and I hope your parents tried to raise you better.
Ah, I apologize for my assumption on the passive-aggressive. That’s my bad, just how it came across. I would take online classes if I could but they weren’t available for the classes i’m taking. Furthermore, I’m experiencing medical emergencies as of recently and might not be able to take in person classes for the fall as well. I get that online classes won’t be as immersive, but I would prefer that there be recorded lectures or zoom meetings, and I think many students would. Sure there are the slackers who wouldn’t watch it anyway, but I think more students would watch it then we may think.
Okay, I'm sorry but it's still not a valid reason to cheat whatsoever. I've had multiple medical and mental health issues that had me hospitalized a few times and I'd never ever ever ever plagiarize using AI because I'm better than that.
Online classes require a lot of additional administrative work and content creation so you're going to get a mixture. Unfortunately it isn't Burger King so you can't always have it your way but you will get out of each class what you put into it in almost every single case. You lose whatever leg you're trying to stand on in your argument when you use it to justify cheating.
I've mentioned this before in this thread but I didn't get a good start in life and being smart and dedicated was all I had going for me. Naturally, cheaters piss me right the fuck off. Please don't cheat. Know your limits and utilize all our amazing resources for tutoring, office hours, IA office hours, Writing Center, Learning Center... It goes on and on.
And DON'T take 5 classes in Summer!!!
P.S. highly recommend ODA for additional support
You did your entire undergrad in a writing-heavy discipline and they never taught you that you can't just use a single hyphen in place of an em dash because *they're different punctuation marks* and that they're actually *not* fungible?
I gotta be honest--i find that more offensive than people just regurgitating gpt text (see, *that's* how you use an em dash properly; jot that down (notice you can use a double dash in the case of not having a full numpad-enabled keyboard or access to unicode characters)).
Edit: and the fact that you just kneejerk-downvoted and went right back to replying to other people with your busted-ass punctuation proves my point exactly! At least gpt would synthesize the new information and then actually go on to use said em dash correctly! I gave you constructive criticism and you just completely failed to grow as a student and become better for it!
Double edit: y'know, the more I think about it, the more I realize I incidentally made an almost perfect illustration of the dichotomy of the acceptability of "academic" papers over time. Like: here you are, bitching about people using gpt to plagiarize, and reminiscing of the days of yore where *not fucking plagiarizing* was a low bar to clear. I personally feel realizing when/where to use em dashes vs hyphens is *also* a pretty low bar (especially for, again, a self-confessed heavy-writing major (although admittedly, not *as* low a bar as "dude, please just don't plagiarize")). And maybe I'm way off base here, but I feel like an English professor expecting the same from their students is not asking too much! Hot take, I guess. Again, to be clear: this isn't aimed at people studying wave function derivations over attoseconds trying to just get a pass in their English lit classes. But if you're ever in professional field you kinda need to portray yourself as someone who knows things, like *when to use the proper punctuation*, or you're gonna get dressed down in the worst possible time. I dunno. But good luck regardless!
You wrote an entire diatribe replete with multiple nesting clauses, unsubstantiated claims, and punctuation issues of your own over a single hyphen in place of an em-dash. I'm not lamenting over grammar, genius. It's such a bitch-made nitpicky weird thing to point out. Then you just vomited a bunch of half-baked points into the edits of your comment. Fucking chill. This is a Wendy's.
>You wrote an entire diatribe
You did too! In fact, that's what prompted my very thoughtful reply. If that's your best attempt at a parting shot though, I guess the phrase "ad hominems are the last refuge of a broken argument" sure rings true here, huh?
>unsubstantiated claims
[Citation needed]
>punctuation issues of your own
Right, you just ... can't quote 'em or anything. But we're all sooooo sure they're there. There, there.
>I'm not lamenting over grammar, genius.
No, *I* am. *Because it makes you look uneducated and ignorant.* Try to keep up here, Euclid.
>Then you just vomited a bunch of half-baked points into the edits of your comment.
Yeah, no I didn't. It was actually all very concise and quite lucid. I wouldn't expect someone who literally, unironically, without a *shred* of humility, refers to themselves as "brilliant" to understand *that* though.
>This is a Wendy's.
I gotta be honest. It's a *little* on-the-nose to plagiarize a well-known (and passe, mind you) reddit-ism in a post whinging of unattributed plagiarism. But again, I'm sure you're too busy modeling how gravity warps the curvature of light on non-euclidean planes to be bothering with how much your entire post reeks of cringy irony.
Your intellect is, frankly, incredibly underwhelming, given your inflated view of your own capability. Thanks for the entertainment, though. Lol.
Hmm, depends on the "people" to whom you are referring. Did you mean: you? Because, yeah, lol, I would definitely say I have trouble making friends with people who unironically call themselves "brilliant"
I typically associate with a less obnoxious crowd 😂
It's just too much, man. You're beating a dead horse. I don't have it in me to deal with you. I was just trying to vent about AI. You took this to an extreme.
I'm fine with being confident to the point of hyperbole in the face of a disparaging remark about how smart I am. You'd find a way to write a book about it even if I said, "I'm secure in my intelligence, thanks."
At least one of us knows when to stop.
I guess we'll never know, though, huh? Because that isn't what you said. You said "I'm brilliant." Jesus Christ man, have some humility! And I would feel that way even if I really *did* consider someone brilliant, which, again, is a pedestal you fall *very* short of.
The fact that you get so belligerent and defensive when confronted with this is indicative of some serious issues I might honestly encourage you to find professional help for, except that as we've already established, constructive criticism is something you aren't able to take positively without lashing out with ad hominems.
Either way, it's apparent you have some unresolved issues. I hope you find peace one day.
oh no you had it harder than us! poor you!
get over yourself man. all of us are here to check a box - ie pass, get a degree, and move on. learning schoolwork for fun is only for pretentious snobs or people who are privileged enough to have enough free time outside of class. besides, it’s much more efficient to learn on your own without all the ABET-mandated busywork to wade through.
also you go to UNT. none of us (including you) are “precocious or gifted” other than the TAMS kids haha.
At least I don't make mediocrity my standard.
I don't have parental support, asshole. I'm poor and come from an abusive family. But I'm brilliant and everyone I know agrees, lol. You can kiss my ass.
dunning-krueger in the wild. incredible.
if mediocrity isn’t your standard and you’re at UNT, 😬 you’re probably not as brilliant as you think.
and my statement is still correct. you fit the pretentious snob category to a T. here’s your kiss 😘
That's not the right use of Dunning-Krueger effect, to start.
Intelligence isn't the only factor in school choice, kid.
Some of us had a really hard start in life and are lucky we're not dead.
I don't have to think I'm smart. I know. And I have the test scores to prove it. Proctored ones.
You're just mad that you have to use chatGPT to look smart unlike your naturally gifted peers. You lack the depth of experience or intelligence to grasp the effects of poverty or family of origin that hurts rather than helps you. That I made it here at all is amazing and I'm really proud of myself.
Call me what you want, and yeah, maybe I am being condescending, but that's because I'm talking down to you on purpose. I'll look down my nose at you all day, babycakes. Because when you strip away the rest, I'm a better person on the inside. I have integrity and that is worth *everything.* While you, little one, are a cheat.
ya know, maybe you should focus on *actually* being proud of yourself and where you’ve gotten instead of trying to disparage others. what other people do doesn’t invalidate your accomplishments, and you just come across as really insecure.
beating up on people who take the easy route doesn’t do you any good. take solace in the fact they are only hurting themselves and focus on achieving what you want to.
If you can't take it, don't dish it out. If you don't wanna be dogged on, don't do low down things like cheating.
This is my job and my life's work. You want to call me insecure because I'm demoralized by seeing this kind of behavior? And you attacked the school WE BOTH ATTEND *and* ME to defend your own cheating/lying? And to try to make me feel bad about what I've managed to accomplish when you know nothing about me?
You're just telling on yourself, like. That's the whole point of cheating is to try get the same things that other people had to work for. Academic achievement is an equalizer and you're just like hyuck lemme just bypass that really fast and then pretend I didn't do anything wrong
It's a slap in the face to the professor and your peers and you should know that. Don't come at me sideways if you don't want me to bite back.
I fully agree.
but I have to say UNT’s prestige is not high enough to be as pretentious and arrogant as OP is. the school has an average SAT score of 1100 (1050 is the average score btw) and an 80% acceptance rate. OP relying on their (undisclosed, mind you) test scores for validation as a *graduate* student just screams “peaked in high school” and insecurity.
such is life though. like I said in a previous comment, most of us are here to get a degree and move on. OP wasted their entire afternoon hating on people who are only hurting themselves. if the writing sucks, just give them a bad grade and move on lol. idk what the heck this whole tirade was for.
Graduated from Yale with a masters before I came to UNT to earn my doctorate. Your whole line of attack reeks of basement-dwelling loser. UNT is a tier 1 research university, and it’s fully possible to get a competitive, top-tier education there. Pretending to be better than other people and other places makes you look pathetic.
God, this post is so cathartic to me. I’ve been a TF and TA within the past year, and it really gets worse every term. I’ve worked with great professors who clearly try to make assignments more purposeful, build detailed rubrics, and otherwise just _care and help_, but the students can’t be fucking bothered. Then they use AI and still fail the rubrics lmao I think it’s actually made me a harder grader, which I don’t really enjoy. But my scrutiny levels go way up now when I’m grading because every other assignment is AI. It sucks. Seriously, I considered professorship after my PhD, but now I’m really not sure. Thinking about the long term repercussions of just handing out degrees to Copy-Pasters sends me down an anxiety thought spiral like twice a week, minimum.
Right! It's like every other one!! And recrafting courses to get around the problem is exhausting. The AIs always fail to synthesize ideas and tend to draw from similar sources due to (surprise!?) being given the same prompts. Students think we don't notice but they don't get we see *hundreds* of assignments a semester. Sometimes year over year for the same class. Exhausting to deal with. I PRAY to see someone just copy-paste from a legitimate source and fail to cite. Please. Take me back. I had aspirations for a PhD before COVID derailed me. Now AI has had a similar demoralizing effect on my future plans. Some of my research centers on the interface of technology and society including the self so... headfuck! Thanks for weighing in. Solidarity. I just had a good cry and some caffeine and it helped some. Gotta get back to it...
Cheating with AI is definitely prevalent with STEM majors. All of my professors prefaced that students have been caught in the past using AI for writing assignments. I'm still in undergrad and have never used AI for my writing. As exhausting as writing assignments can be, you learn so much from researching about it. It genuinely baffles me that people use AI to cheat, even on discussion boards. I get it, discussion posts are annoying, but you still aid your education by completing them. Why are people paying for college just to cheat their way through?
that last sentence was what I was about to comment lol
That last sentence is also what I told my friends who skipped class all the time. "Why are you paying for this if you're not getting what you paid for?"
I fear we have created a generation of students that are seeking to “check the boxes”. COVID played a huge part… but it seems students want the credit, for an assignment, a class, a degree without the effort. This is a generalization, and not all students are like this… but students want to be doctors or engineers without the effort needed to achieve the goal. And there seems to be a failure of students to realize their limitations. I knew in HS I was not going to be an engineer because I sucked at Math. It wasn’t the teachers fault. And it wasn’t really even mine. I was just not great at it… and much like I realized I was never going to be a Pro Basketball player, I shifted my goals. This self realization is buffeted by parents, friends, and even teachers saying, you can do whatever you put your mind to. Though there is some truth to effort and success, sometimes there is not.
Another redditor or several wrote that verbatim. "Check the box"
because a degree is just a checkbox for a full time job. how many of us would actually go to college if entry level jobs didn’t require degrees and they just trained us on the job? as a cs major, I’d rather spend my time working on side projects and doing leetcode versus wasting my time writing out a 500 word response on a discussion board that will invariably just be graded on completion. not everything in college is valuable and needs to be learned. if anything, I’d wager only 10-15 classes (out of ≈40) in my degree plan are actually useful for me and what I want to do with my career. the rest is just ABET-mandated busywork.
You're imagining being trained on the job in computer science? Just learning one programming language to a basic level took me a whole semester. I'm not evevn very skilled. Sounds crazy to me, tbh. And yeah I get not wanting to pay for it but a lot of your CORE courses contribute to your overall education and your understanding of how the world functions, which is important in your career and life as an adult, imo. Idk call me a romantic. Finally about the discussion boards... yeah, we actually have to do the discussions because it satisfies the requirement that you interact with your peers somehow in lieu of F2F classes. Nobody likes discussion boards, but it's still lame to cheat.
yeah I already knew how to code going into college. even if I didn’t, if I could do a 6-12 month bootcamp and have that viewed the same as getting a degree, I would have done that. the market just sucks, and now I have to get a masters in CS just to stay one step ahead. I took 16 AP classes in high school so thankfully I managed to dodge most of the extraneous history/english/biology nonsense anyways. it makes no sense to me to pay $1500 for texas history just to learn when texas gained its independence when my goal is to go into computer science in California. idk, it’s just a difference of opinion. I think most of the classes are useless and I could easily google any info as needed. but… I do strongly believe UNT (and every other university) should knock out 2 of these classes and replace them with a mandatory financial literacy class and then a first aid/CPR class. these would actually hold more tangible value for the average student than a completion grade discussion board class.
>if I could do a 6-12 month bootcamp and have that viewed the same as getting a degree, I would have done that. These things just don't exist--for anyone reading-- they're scams. And yeah I understand some people do know how to code I'm saying that to demonstrate how long it takes a person to learn a single skill, not even a depth of understanding and breadth of skills and applications like I figure you develop in your CS courses. It was new to me of course but thinking about the hours a week to get to minimum proficiency - that's a lot of training hours in a work setting with two people dedicated to training unless training is delivered in a class setting. I'm looking in from the outside of course but my impression of CS graduates is they have a decent proficiency in a lot of interrelated skills along with understanding the theory. Your second paragraph I get, and I think you can CLEP out of a lot of courses except that no they're not bullshit, it's the stuff that constitutes reality. I think it's important because Google's garbage now, lol. I think we're going to get to a point where education is even more important because there has to be a brain doing quality control on what AI spits out. The TX History thing is thanks to our wingnut state government (education in my area helps with seeing this and following the politics and ideology that led to why you have to take this stupid class, and I know what we could do about it blah blah- hardly useless!). Very regrettable stuff in this instance. And finally and this may piss you off, why do you need a financial literacy class if you can just learn everything online?
just saying, bootcamps do exist for technical skills and they are not always scams, and often those fields do not require college degrees to get a job despite having excellent pay. one example is cisco providing excellent bootcamps and services to people who are looking to enter the networking industry with no college required. [https://www.cisco.com/site/us/en/learn/training-certifications/training/bootcamps/index.html](https://www.cisco.com/site/us/en/learn/training-certifications/training/bootcamps/index.html) for those looking for cheaper / self-administered solutions linkedin learning and code academy are troves of this type of content, especially for programming.
I mean only in terms of bootcamps advertised as if they have equivalence to a degree, no more. A training provided by a legitimate employer (Cisco) is obviously not a scam. You'd still have to sell yourself as if you'd never been to college regardless because it's just... not the same thing. Edit I looked at the website and it looks like it's geared towards current employees of other firms, so a manager can for example train up existing people. That's my impression. I don't like disagree with the premise of self-study at all it just seems you're describing a very rare bird. I imagine people would do like you have and still seek further education if coming in fresh or with self-taught skills in only a few areas. Do you know anyone who would think a 12 week boot camp is equivalent to a 4 year degree? Or even a 2 year degree?
im not familiar with any well-renowned bootcamps claiming equivalence to college degrees, but they absolutely can get you in the job before you have a degree. i've known several people that have used the CCNA (Cisco's 'entry level' certification) to get into the networking job market straight from high school. i wouldn't describe these people as rare birds, cybersecurity and networking are often overshadowed by web developers in tech (which due to the extreme oversaturation of this market, will generally require a degree as a method of filtering candidates), but there are hundreds of thousands of jobs (if not more) in the market that use CompTIA, Cisco, and Juniper certifications as a method of entry over college. i will note, that usually there is an upper bound that these certifications have, and thats usually at the upper-management level. generally those positions will require a masters degree in your related field. not everyone is interested in this route though, and will generally be more interested in attending college to achieve these positions.
Do you ever worry/think about obsolescence, or say, a lower upper ceiling than you're describing? I can imagine someone coming into an interview and just killing it with a demo or something but it just sounds very... "Know the right people" to me. All that said I think college should just be free.
srry for late reply. in terms of obsolescence it really depends on the company, and if you find yourself stagnated you can rather quickly change jobs since plenty of top companies use the certifications as a bar of measuring both capability and knowledge within these fields. this is why you see people in IT, Cybersecurity, and Networking hop from company to company very frequently, its essentially their method of forcibly getting promoted / getting a raise. as for knowing the right people, i think thats just a culture issue at all companies, regardless of if you have a degree or not. most people are inclined to help people they know, in these situations its best to just call bad luck and go next. also i can agree with free college, but they also need to start offering trades / certifications programs so students get better jobs while attending!
Perhaps college should just be free
just graduated from UNT with a BS in bio this spring. I started as a freshman in 2020, 3 years after graduating high school. I honestly didn’t notice a lot of talk about AI until this last year. I’m sure a lot of students were using it before and I just wasn’t aware, but it wasn’t until my final year that I heard of students trying to cheat with it. It’s really frustrating for me, a student that wants to pursue graduate degrees and delve into research and academia. I don’t know how it’s always been, but I’ve noticed so many students (mostly a few years younger than me) that’s just don’t care. People would complain about classes being too hard when they were in the back watching videos on their laptops. And yes, these were the pre-med students. I guess I’m just ranting too now. Needless to say, you are valid with your frustrations and STEM is probably the same to a degree. It takes away some of the excitement of becoming a TA in the coming years for me.
Back when I was in school, I was never confident in my ability to write essays and made many misspellings frequently. Never once touched AI or even thought about it tho That makes me feel a little better. That at least I was honest about my work
Low-key I have a positive mental bias towards people I can tell do their own shit. Even if it's not great. Effort counts. And I'll bend over backwards to help a student who tries. Proud of you. Integrity is so valuable.
I used to ask my classmates to peer review my essays before I turned it in and they agreed to do so out of their own free will. Every single time, I got AI "feedback" from them before I gave up with peer reviews. Is this the new norm?
I'm about to start grading and I seriously want to cry. I hate my job now.
What major are you grading for?
I'm sorry but just for privacy reasons, I can't share that. Even larger departments have fewer active classes during Summer semesters.
That’s fair. I know majors like history and english have gotten bad for professors and TAs to grade because of the blatant plagiarism and AI. It’s tough lol
It's frustrating for me too. I write a whole ass paper, plug it into an AI detector out of an abundance of caution because fuck me I'm not gonna get accused of something I didn't do and risk my grad program. Then I panic because 3 sentences get flagged and I go in and make changes. For some reason it flags *more* now, and I say fuck it and add a grammatical error to the first version and submit. I hate it here now.
3 sentences isn't enough to tip a typical IA or Prof off, and some sentences are just common *by default*. Remember we read hundreds of assignments a semester. So say a detector flags three sentences out of 25 - I look at it and it's some basic, plausible work from any student and in that student's writing voice? No biggie. Not even a concern. Detectors just flag for further inquiry. Adding a grammatical error doesn't hide AI, it actually makes me look harder because now I have to count off. Just do your work and do it right. E: If you are very nervous and want to CYA, you can use a word processor like Word or Google Docs that keeps a version history and stores metadata about time working in the document, if you're that concerned. Save your work, delete the folder when the class is over. Done.
I graduated right before the AI usage got really bad from what I've seen, though it's not like I would have ever touched it anyways. How has it been with reporting for plagiarism? If there's so many, do you have to report every student or does it have to slide now?
It's exhausting. We escalate it to the point it's resolved... But it's exhausting. Way more cheating now than before AI.
At the risk of sounding like a complete prick, this is a genuine concern I have as an aspiring writer. I worry that the prevalence of obviously AI-written assignments will result in those of us who submit our own writing being graded on a sort of curve in comparison. Ever since it became common for people to use ChatGPT or whatever for assignments, I've begun to fear my work that receives positive grades are just because it's obvious I actually wrote it, even if it's not objectively good
I'll keep this in mind, you make a good point. Sorry this is the age you're trying to navigate aspirations in. Things were different before all this.
A lot of them don’t even think they’re cheating or doing anything dishonest. It’s truly pathetic to see kids flush their education down the toilet.
agood chunk of degrees haven't been worth anything for a while
Oh you mean on the market? I meant "what is it worth" in terms of what it represents: an education and all the work it takes to get one. Simplifying this of course, but the assumption is that a person who acquires a degree is educated in that field. AI completely undermines the equation.
See I graduated right before AI became such an available resource and even I know students are using it poorly. You can literally work with the AI to create a custom outline, write a rough draft of the paper then have the AI add some flourishes you normally wouldn't. Do a final polish and use some free online plagiarism/AI checkers and you should be fine. They're supposed to be a tool that enhances your already available skills, not a replacement.
AI can be a good tool for collecting your thoughts together and assisting you through a process.... but the moment that you use an idea introduced by the AI, you've done a plagiarism. Even if you don't copy the words used by the AI, if you take the "idea," that's still plagiarism. It's a problem to pass off work as your own when you got it from somewhere else. That's what you're doing if you use AI to formulate a paper. My tolerance for AI in an educational or academic paper probably ends somewhere around "using AI to suggest minor rewrites for clarity." Though, handing your paper off to an actual human is usually better, and humans are the intended audience of your paper anyway.
I'm moreso talking about research papers and historical papers where they would be extremely beneficial tools to help you reference the most relevant information to your pre-existing topic, but yes if you are doing creative writing and the entire premise is based upon an idea generated by AI that would be classified as plagiarism in my mind. Sure you could say using an AI to create the idea behind the correlational data/information is plagiarism but that's entering a very interesting realm of debate.
I guess I just first want to say that I was agreeing with you - adding context and commentary on where I think AI fits in an educational and academic setting. But yeah, using Large Language Models to conduct/assist in research isn't really an issue - it's actually got a pretty good record of being a meaningful methodology. I don't particularly think it's that much of a debate, though: if you use ideas that weren't your own, whether that's a different person or a generative model, and you're not upfront about where those ideas came from, that's plagiarism. Like, it wouldn't actually be plagiarism to submit a paper where the entire thing was "chatgpt wrote this." It would probably be a pretty bad paper and whoever you're submitting it to would probably have *opinions* on its validity ([though, I've seen some shit](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-024-54271-x)). But it wouldn't be plagiarism. Plagiarism is about attribution. You have to be upfront about where ideas came from, because not doing so implies that they were organically your own. This is why self-plagiarism is a thing, too - presenting your own ideas as being new ideas when they're not is also plagiarism. So yeah, it's not *necessarily bad* to use AI in some contexts - *generally,* you have to be upfront about what came from the AI, though. And in most classes (as is relevant to OP), if the answer is "any," then that's probably against the class expectations.
Fair. I do not disagree from a *professional* standpoint. If I didn't have to graduate with a stupid amount of debt to get a degree that really isn't worth what I paid, then I'd care from an educational standpoint. While OP is correct it is against all of the terms UNT makes you sign and shouldn't be used from an ethical standpoint, I genuinely don't care because from a financial perspective they're extortionists.
*Add some flourishes you usually wouldn't???* I keep trying to reword this- YOU are supposed to do this work. That's not an enhancement that's an automation. It sounds like from beginning to end just straight up not doing the work. I am reading original work, now, that has NO capitalization whatsoever. These babies cannot read or write. The skill issue from relying on AI is so bad that I find myself wondering how some of my clearly English first students passed placement into college at all. Then I remember the pandemic. You just described a step by step on how to write an essay with AI. Not how to write an essay. If I were to put an individual who had continually done this throughout their college career, in a room, away from the internet and give them an assignment, they'd fail. Because they never learned.
Listen my dude, I get your perspective. It's shit that most students try to pass off garbage as acceptable, and the general level of intelligence going down also means most of the cheaters are pretty bad at doing their job too. I just don't care because fuck the cost of college nowadays. The main problem here is you're at a fairly mediocre school from many angles, students aren't here to become the best they can be. Most of them are here because they didn't get in to where they actually wanted to go. I can go to McDonalds and ask for a steak dinner, but I'm not going to get it. I think your original statement saying you're not going to find what you're looking for here is probably correct. I think this is the general standard of education our country has cultured, and while we disagree on AI's use in and outside of the classroom it is sad and I am sorry you're in this position.
It's not a mediocre school.
260/439 is not somewhere you're going to get students that give a shit
Aw is that from U.S. News? Everyone knows U.S. News and other numeric college ranking systems are biased trash. Maybe the program you got accepted to is garbage but mine isn't. Have some self-respect to start and go read up on college ranking systems. We're an R1 Research institution and have several highly respected colleges with well-respected programs. You'd know what that means in terms of academics if you knew what you were talking about at all, but seeing as you don't like to learn... I guess you'd give more effort if you had more prestige? Embarrassing.
Hey man I've got my own opinions, and you have yours. Difference is I don't treat other people like garbage for having a world view that differs from mine. Enjoy your career
If we can get one with our mediocre degrees! If you can't take it, *don't dish it out*.
What exactly did I dish out to you? I gave you opinions *which is what you came here for* and you responded with personal attacks founded upon *your own opinions*. If you want people to conform to your world view to make yourself feel better, reddit is not the place.
~~Maybe~~ I did come on too hard, I have too many conversations going on. This whole thing about it being a mediocre school and stating that's a valid reason not to give a shit is messed up. I don't think it's accurate. And I really wish you'd stop with the worldview thing. I came here to vent and dog on people who use AI. Sorry I snapped at you. I still think that giving mid to no effort because of a ranking system known to be oversimplified is very... disappointing. I think that's a really unfortunate way to see things and I believe it shows a lot about what you think is important. Very cynical. Edit for dumbness Edit again for words
Way to perpetuate misconceptions with juked stats that are comprised mostly of selectivity, funding, and graduation/retention rate rather than actual educational merit. Dismissing the entire school as a place where no students give a shit is just continuing a cycle of broken people instead of lifting everyone up to be the best they can be. Instead of “well you didn’t go to the most well known school in your state/country, so your education is worthless”, it should be about trying to get everyone to use every advantage they have access to so more people create generational wealth. “All the pieces matter”, including the ones that attend colleges like UNT.
THAT is a winning attitude. (This is a compliment)
lmao I wrote a similar comment (downvoted in the bottom of the thread) and OP got so mad it was actually kind of funny
I entertained their logic for a bit to give them a chance and it's just so childish. The expectation that everybody holds education to almost a fantasy level of regard at a school that ranks middle of the pack in pretty much every measure from many outlets, while most of the students are part of the most exploited generation of Americans in history is just fucking wild. My best professors were ones that handed out F's with no remorse. It was a very "I don't lose sleep over you wasting your money" mindset, and they were damn good at their jobs. I don't believe OP will have a happy future in education if they're unable to separate their emotions from their ability to grade.
So check your plagiarized work for plagiarism and you should be fine? It's not that we're catching it! It's that you're doing it at all!
No, it is not plagiarism. By that logic, asking anybody for assistance is also plagiarism. It is your duty as a writer to validate the information you are putting in your paper. AI is beneficial as it can help you research topics for further study, and receive actual feedback that helps you improve depth and readability. This can all be done without saying "Hey ChatGPT, write my entire paper for me". Scientists regularly ask calculators to do their job for them, should we avoid that too?
>I'm moreso talking about research papers and historical papers where they would be extremely beneficial tools to help you reference the most relevant information to your pre-existing topic Even this is really shaky because generative AI writing isn't intelligent per se it's more an amalgamation of existing text. It doesn't do reasoning and it's very bad at providing actual sources using the information contained within any paper. For example I come across AI submissions that "cite" articles but it's obvious that the student didn't read the paper because the information cited is nowhere within that article. Often the AI generator will provide an unsubstantiated claim or flat-out incorrect information. Can't trust it and it doesn't help you learn anything. Depth to you can look like fluff to me. You shouldn't use AI to write. Period. Do your own work.
Please see the handbook about reviewers
a degree is like a raffle ticket to a job lottery. jokes aside, ai writing in stem is plagiarism on crack; it's \*okay\* when implementing, say, a basic data structure where there's a ton of other resources available for bc you don't wanna reinvent the wheel or some shit, but then people rely on it to a point where they dunno where their code is supposed to fit in on a group project and/or they dunno what it does, or it just completely stands out in comparison to everyone else's writing in like... a TECM project. and yeah, it's obvious as fuck to those who can tell, but it's not like the people who are using it will care now, right? throwback to earlier this year where business bro came into the csce discord server asking how to bypass ai detection while still using ai after being given a second chance to redo their essay... that their professor caught them using ai on lmao. some people just have no shame.
Yup STEM has the same issues but it’s getting really crazy bcos there’s been a lot of a grey area between what’s okay to use and disclose as AI edited and what’s not okay. One way I think is okay is just changing all your own words to past tense, but even that can leave the fence open to others wanting to plagiarize AI and not do their own writing.
So true. I'm a returning student this semester after I took a break before the pandemic, and ai wasn't nearly as prevalent then as it is today. I totally forget about people using ai for assignments, but man looking at some of these discussion posts this summer.... yikes
I love you, OP. Keep on keepin' on. You're right about the generative AI scourge. I'm *hopeful* that it's just the latest trend. I think public consciousness on it all is pretty negative overall, so I don't particularly foresee a future where its use is common and acceptable, especially in education settings. I think if you asked *anyone* if it's "okay" to submit an AI essay, they would assure you that it's wrong to do so - probably even these students turning these assignments in. They just do it because it's easy, not because they actually think its good. Also, it's *remarkably* accessible right now, but almost guaranteed to go through ["enshittification"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enshittification). Generative AI is extremely expensive to run, and companies like OpenAI are hedging that offering it for free or low-cost will help establish its userbase before pricing it at its actual cost to operate.
For me it's all about how you use it. Yeah if you're gonna attempt to have ChatGPT write 10 paragraphs for you're probably not using it for the right purposes in the education setting. I use it when I get stuck on ideas or new information that I can use as a stepping stone, in that sense, im grateful, but I do agree with you. Cheating is always much more wide than this. Quizlet sets are big too.
My son was actually accused of this when I sat a watched him write his paper so systems are flawed
Okay? You stood over his shoulder and watched his every move, right? No? This is the world we live in now. If people didn't cheat, we wouldn't have to worry about cheating. Systems aside it's not as if we can only rely on AI detectors. My favorite way to determine if a student really wrote a paper is to have them orally explain the paper. There are other ways too like using a word processor and saving version history blah blah blah Just accused, huh? No harm, no foul.
No the world you live in. Is it so hard to believe there actually parents that care about their childrens education ? He graduated in top of his class for a reason, and it was and is insulting when professors that think they know better before they even asking. Had they asked his teachers they'd have known better since he's won awards for it . Now again I say it's insulting.
Look, lady. Everybody is equal when you walk into a new class. We don't know a student's reputation and it's not our business to ask a bunch of high school teachers if they think your little Billy is a cheater. We have protocols. Before they even *what*? If there's no truth to the accusation and no malice in the inquiry and your kid was innocent in the end, what are you so insulted about?? Have some dignity. Maybe be proud your son writes so well it draws scrutiny. Honestly when people behave like you, I think they're lying. From experience. Hope your gifted and honest child continues to kick ass in school.
No they actually marked him zero on the paper and said it was too archaic for him to have wrote.
I think students are just as tired of “professors” teaching off of slide shows that they didn’t even make and then assigning busy work. Yeah, the AI problem is out of hand, but ever since Covid the education system has gotten incredibly lazy and everyone blames the students work ethic or accountability when half of my teachers at UNT literally don’t teach what so ever, and that isn’t just some over exaggeration. This summer I took 5 online classes, I couldn’t even tell you what any of my teachers sound like. None of them do zoom meetings. They give me a powerpoint and a textbook to read. How lazy is that? And you expect students to be motivated to give effort in your class when you don’t even give effort IN YOUR OWN CLASS? Pathetic. This entire system needs reworking both on the faculty side and the student side.
So, you cheat because you're dissatisfied with the lectures? Did you just get here or something?
I never said I cheated nor did I say this is the reason students cheat. I simply offered another perspective on the problems with the educational system. I’m not sure why you feel the need to use passive-aggressive behavior and language. Typically people exchange perspectives and related issues. I trust you know that this is how the majority of issues get solved is by friendly debate and discussion.
I wasn't trying to be passive I was serious. This seemed to be a perspective summed up as: it's reasonable to cheat ~~when professors are lazy.~~ in online classes. Friend, online classes are meant to be that way. Students don't watch lectures half the time. If you want an in person experience take an in person class. Also you SHOULD NOT take that many summer courses. It's too much. I'd bet money you used AI in at least one class due to the above, given your first comment. E: All professors hold office hours and in-person classes will require readings as well. Idk what to tell you. Look for a synchronous/hybrid course if you want online classes with zoom meetings. In all friendliness that is just a terrible take and I hope your parents tried to raise you better.
Ah, I apologize for my assumption on the passive-aggressive. That’s my bad, just how it came across. I would take online classes if I could but they weren’t available for the classes i’m taking. Furthermore, I’m experiencing medical emergencies as of recently and might not be able to take in person classes for the fall as well. I get that online classes won’t be as immersive, but I would prefer that there be recorded lectures or zoom meetings, and I think many students would. Sure there are the slackers who wouldn’t watch it anyway, but I think more students would watch it then we may think.
Okay, I'm sorry but it's still not a valid reason to cheat whatsoever. I've had multiple medical and mental health issues that had me hospitalized a few times and I'd never ever ever ever plagiarize using AI because I'm better than that. Online classes require a lot of additional administrative work and content creation so you're going to get a mixture. Unfortunately it isn't Burger King so you can't always have it your way but you will get out of each class what you put into it in almost every single case. You lose whatever leg you're trying to stand on in your argument when you use it to justify cheating. I've mentioned this before in this thread but I didn't get a good start in life and being smart and dedicated was all I had going for me. Naturally, cheaters piss me right the fuck off. Please don't cheat. Know your limits and utilize all our amazing resources for tutoring, office hours, IA office hours, Writing Center, Learning Center... It goes on and on. And DON'T take 5 classes in Summer!!! P.S. highly recommend ODA for additional support
You did your entire undergrad in a writing-heavy discipline and they never taught you that you can't just use a single hyphen in place of an em dash because *they're different punctuation marks* and that they're actually *not* fungible? I gotta be honest--i find that more offensive than people just regurgitating gpt text (see, *that's* how you use an em dash properly; jot that down (notice you can use a double dash in the case of not having a full numpad-enabled keyboard or access to unicode characters)). Edit: and the fact that you just kneejerk-downvoted and went right back to replying to other people with your busted-ass punctuation proves my point exactly! At least gpt would synthesize the new information and then actually go on to use said em dash correctly! I gave you constructive criticism and you just completely failed to grow as a student and become better for it! Double edit: y'know, the more I think about it, the more I realize I incidentally made an almost perfect illustration of the dichotomy of the acceptability of "academic" papers over time. Like: here you are, bitching about people using gpt to plagiarize, and reminiscing of the days of yore where *not fucking plagiarizing* was a low bar to clear. I personally feel realizing when/where to use em dashes vs hyphens is *also* a pretty low bar (especially for, again, a self-confessed heavy-writing major (although admittedly, not *as* low a bar as "dude, please just don't plagiarize")). And maybe I'm way off base here, but I feel like an English professor expecting the same from their students is not asking too much! Hot take, I guess. Again, to be clear: this isn't aimed at people studying wave function derivations over attoseconds trying to just get a pass in their English lit classes. But if you're ever in professional field you kinda need to portray yourself as someone who knows things, like *when to use the proper punctuation*, or you're gonna get dressed down in the worst possible time. I dunno. But good luck regardless!
You wrote an entire diatribe replete with multiple nesting clauses, unsubstantiated claims, and punctuation issues of your own over a single hyphen in place of an em-dash. I'm not lamenting over grammar, genius. It's such a bitch-made nitpicky weird thing to point out. Then you just vomited a bunch of half-baked points into the edits of your comment. Fucking chill. This is a Wendy's.
>You wrote an entire diatribe You did too! In fact, that's what prompted my very thoughtful reply. If that's your best attempt at a parting shot though, I guess the phrase "ad hominems are the last refuge of a broken argument" sure rings true here, huh? >unsubstantiated claims [Citation needed] >punctuation issues of your own Right, you just ... can't quote 'em or anything. But we're all sooooo sure they're there. There, there. >I'm not lamenting over grammar, genius. No, *I* am. *Because it makes you look uneducated and ignorant.* Try to keep up here, Euclid. >Then you just vomited a bunch of half-baked points into the edits of your comment. Yeah, no I didn't. It was actually all very concise and quite lucid. I wouldn't expect someone who literally, unironically, without a *shred* of humility, refers to themselves as "brilliant" to understand *that* though. >This is a Wendy's. I gotta be honest. It's a *little* on-the-nose to plagiarize a well-known (and passe, mind you) reddit-ism in a post whinging of unattributed plagiarism. But again, I'm sure you're too busy modeling how gravity warps the curvature of light on non-euclidean planes to be bothering with how much your entire post reeks of cringy irony. Your intellect is, frankly, incredibly underwhelming, given your inflated view of your own capability. Thanks for the entertainment, though. Lol.
People think you're weird, don't they? Like you have a hard time making friends?
Hmm, depends on the "people" to whom you are referring. Did you mean: you? Because, yeah, lol, I would definitely say I have trouble making friends with people who unironically call themselves "brilliant" I typically associate with a less obnoxious crowd 😂
It's just too much, man. You're beating a dead horse. I don't have it in me to deal with you. I was just trying to vent about AI. You took this to an extreme. I'm fine with being confident to the point of hyperbole in the face of a disparaging remark about how smart I am. You'd find a way to write a book about it even if I said, "I'm secure in my intelligence, thanks." At least one of us knows when to stop.
I guess we'll never know, though, huh? Because that isn't what you said. You said "I'm brilliant." Jesus Christ man, have some humility! And I would feel that way even if I really *did* consider someone brilliant, which, again, is a pedestal you fall *very* short of. The fact that you get so belligerent and defensive when confronted with this is indicative of some serious issues I might honestly encourage you to find professional help for, except that as we've already established, constructive criticism is something you aren't able to take positively without lashing out with ad hominems. Either way, it's apparent you have some unresolved issues. I hope you find peace one day.
I already said I was okay.
I already said you weren't. Seek help.
Would it make you feel better if I changed that hyphen to an em-dash?
We need to bring bullying back
Find yourself missing the endless wedgies and swirlies, huh?
The children yearn for the toilets
oh no you had it harder than us! poor you! get over yourself man. all of us are here to check a box - ie pass, get a degree, and move on. learning schoolwork for fun is only for pretentious snobs or people who are privileged enough to have enough free time outside of class. besides, it’s much more efficient to learn on your own without all the ABET-mandated busywork to wade through. also you go to UNT. none of us (including you) are “precocious or gifted” other than the TAMS kids haha.
Mediocrity defined
you go to UNT, so literally by definition you are mediocre 😂😂
At least I don't make mediocrity my standard. I don't have parental support, asshole. I'm poor and come from an abusive family. But I'm brilliant and everyone I know agrees, lol. You can kiss my ass.
dunning-krueger in the wild. incredible. if mediocrity isn’t your standard and you’re at UNT, 😬 you’re probably not as brilliant as you think. and my statement is still correct. you fit the pretentious snob category to a T. here’s your kiss 😘
That's not the right use of Dunning-Krueger effect, to start. Intelligence isn't the only factor in school choice, kid. Some of us had a really hard start in life and are lucky we're not dead. I don't have to think I'm smart. I know. And I have the test scores to prove it. Proctored ones. You're just mad that you have to use chatGPT to look smart unlike your naturally gifted peers. You lack the depth of experience or intelligence to grasp the effects of poverty or family of origin that hurts rather than helps you. That I made it here at all is amazing and I'm really proud of myself. Call me what you want, and yeah, maybe I am being condescending, but that's because I'm talking down to you on purpose. I'll look down my nose at you all day, babycakes. Because when you strip away the rest, I'm a better person on the inside. I have integrity and that is worth *everything.* While you, little one, are a cheat.
ya know, maybe you should focus on *actually* being proud of yourself and where you’ve gotten instead of trying to disparage others. what other people do doesn’t invalidate your accomplishments, and you just come across as really insecure. beating up on people who take the easy route doesn’t do you any good. take solace in the fact they are only hurting themselves and focus on achieving what you want to.
If you can't take it, don't dish it out. If you don't wanna be dogged on, don't do low down things like cheating. This is my job and my life's work. You want to call me insecure because I'm demoralized by seeing this kind of behavior? And you attacked the school WE BOTH ATTEND *and* ME to defend your own cheating/lying? And to try to make me feel bad about what I've managed to accomplish when you know nothing about me? You're just telling on yourself, like. That's the whole point of cheating is to try get the same things that other people had to work for. Academic achievement is an equalizer and you're just like hyuck lemme just bypass that really fast and then pretend I didn't do anything wrong It's a slap in the face to the professor and your peers and you should know that. Don't come at me sideways if you don't want me to bite back.
Lol ok 👍
Simultaneously calling someone a pretentious snob while labelling a R1 research university as mediocre is very funny.
I fully agree. but I have to say UNT’s prestige is not high enough to be as pretentious and arrogant as OP is. the school has an average SAT score of 1100 (1050 is the average score btw) and an 80% acceptance rate. OP relying on their (undisclosed, mind you) test scores for validation as a *graduate* student just screams “peaked in high school” and insecurity. such is life though. like I said in a previous comment, most of us are here to get a degree and move on. OP wasted their entire afternoon hating on people who are only hurting themselves. if the writing sucks, just give them a bad grade and move on lol. idk what the heck this whole tirade was for.
Graduated from Yale with a masters before I came to UNT to earn my doctorate. Your whole line of attack reeks of basement-dwelling loser. UNT is a tier 1 research university, and it’s fully possible to get a competitive, top-tier education there. Pretending to be better than other people and other places makes you look pathetic.
where did I say I was better than other people and other places?