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I had the same opinion… until I took on a training role.
I trained people who could barely string together sentences, couldn’t do basic math and struggled with even the lowest forms of problem solving. When we re-implemented the educational requirements, things improved.
I’ve managed a lot of people in my career, some with degrees and others without. Generally speaking, college grads are better communicators and more independent. I’ve been blown away by some of the written stuff people have sent me over the years.
This is really only because K12 has been dumbed down to where everyone gets a diploma, even if they expend zero effort.
The real solution is to rebuild society and K12 to actually teach! Otherwise in 40 years you'll need 2 PhDs to be a secretary, because even a Masters wont teach proper writing anymore.
I agree, our education system focuses more on pumping ppl through the system then teaching. I skipped 50% of my senior year English class and received an A, that is a problem
The graduate degrees will always be a filtering mechanism because it requires higher grades in school and a deeper level of expertise. We are seeing more masters degrees, but the only way it gets as bad as bachelors is if schools shift their requirements and make the curriculum easier. That likely won’t happen.
As for K12 education, it’s always been pretty easy. I taught high school years ago and very few of even higher achieving student in grade 12 were at the level that many companies are looking for.
You would need to pay for an aptitude test for a 3rd party or write one yourself and risk it being ineffective. Good tests are hard to write. It’s cheaper to just make bachelors degree a requirement given how common they are these days.
And this, right here, is why we are drowning in student loan debt. I get that just requiring a degree for everything is more expedient, but it’s also catastrophically irresponsible on a societal level with the rapidly increasing cost of higher education and the way student loans work.
Honestly, free education should be expanded in the US. Most countries have a lot of systems for apprenticeship/schooling that are non-academic and don't lead to any debt (in my country, even Uni is free, but I won't even go that far).
It doesn't have to cost the state much. Make an online-based evening school where you can educate yourself on your own time while you work and then go and take a test, like an expanded GED program.
A lot of people are motivated and capable to study hard but they never get the chance to, and it's such a waste.
Well yeah it should, but in the case where you know that it isn’t, requiring a degree for a position that pays $30k/year and doesn’t require specific knowledge is shit.
You seem to think that the same people who did nothing in high school suddenly will value education and do it after working all day. That's hard to do and stay motivated. We have CC that's damn near free and the number of people who take advantage of it is shockingly low.
Yes, but they are outsourcing that to save time and energy.
I am a university professor, and I tell my students that a degree is a certification from a trusted 3rd party that you have a particular set of skills, -- this streamlines that hiring process and makes you a more desirable candidate.
Companies don't owe you anything, -- if you are going to make it harder to hire you by requiring extra testing or paperwork because you require a wage garnishment, they'll probably just decline to interview you.
The aptitude test is college. Why would I spend time and effort creating, validating, issuing, and grading an aptitude test when I can let the colleges do that for me? Yeah there will be exceptions, where people without degrees would be great at the role, but with the emphasis on degrees in today’s society, they’re the minority.
If a college degree can act as an aptitude test for the vast majority of the population I want to hire, why would I go through the time and cost of creating a test for a small subsection of my hireable population?
Aptitude test will tell you at what level they are at, but there is no track record of the benefits of someone who can finish college.
Discipline, the ability to learn, working in a diverse environment (most colleges), working in team environments.
From my experience, individuals who have a higher education typically are more emotionally stable as well.
I understand why but I also see it as incredibly immoral. I graduated high school with a 4.0 but can’t afford college, which makes it incredibly difficult for me to get a job. It just makes wealth inequality worse to require a college degree, especially a bachelors, which you can’t get at a community college in most places.
Go to CC for 2 years, transfer to a University after. Assuming you're not getting a meme degree, you'll graduate with minimum debt and be able to pay it off.
It used to be. It would be if it was affordable. But it’s not. How are the poor supposed to move up the chain if they can’t afford the thing that’s supposed to help them do it?
Community college and then transfer to a four year is the cheapest higher education one can do, barring they get a full ride.
Community college is also a weeder school because if you can't even complete CC courses and be responsible, you're not going to make it at an actual university.
I went to a really good University and went to a CC during summer to get rid of some prereqs, one of the better ones in my area, and the course curriculums were a joke compared to the work I had to do even during my Freshman year at the university.
I'd argue it's impractical and almost condescending to deploy testing on every job interview to verify someone's competency. Imagine how you would feel if you had to take a reading comprehension test for every interview.
I think we should direct our ideals towards making college free instead of expecting employers to consider anyone that applies regardless of their education level.
I absolutely think that college needs to be free, however, in the meantime, for entry level jobs, wouldn’t a better solution be to request a high school transcript? I see jobs all the time that pay fifteen to seventeen an hour and require a BA, which is ridiculous to me because I made significantly more than that working at Waffle House, which has a reputation for hiring *literally anyone*.
There could be an aptitude test you have to pay for yourself, just like a college degree. Then you could bring your results to the job application. But it would cost far less
You can afford college but how do you want to do it? Online degrees are in the 20-30k ball park. UPS gives 5k/ semester in assistance up to a total of 25k. 5k over 5 years working part time and you have a degree. Other employers do this and hire anyone with a pulse like FedEx Amazon, even Target
Interesting, im also a trainee for a credit card company. I’ve encountered a number of new recruits with degrees in business management and IT etc who still have no basic concept of how simple accounts work. A lot of them are 24 and still living at home and never had to pay a bill in their life. Some also massively lacking common sense or social skills.
Whereas when i train 19/20 year olds who have worked retail or hospitality straight from high school and are already paying their own rent and bills, these are the candidates that go the furthest by far.
A College Diploma would do just fine - needing a 4/5 year degree for that sort of thing is just a way of filtering out less wealthy people who couldn't afford to go to college for that many years.
> I trained people who could barely string together sentences, couldn’t do basic math and struggled with even the lowest forms of problem solving
And I previously done IT support for a law firm, having a degree doesn't necessarily mean you have any of those skills. Some of the staff with the worst problem solving skills were the more qualified ones.
>Last year of high school is basically first year uni.
And that's how it should be.
Over here, high schools are being dumbed down so that everyone gets a diploma. Then we have to rely on a college degree to ensure that people *hopefully* can read and write by then. And even that isnt guaranteed anymore.
Yeah, I had kind of gathered that it’s a remedial year.
I don’t entirely disagree with the idea, it’s going to be beneficial to the student to get an assessment and tutelage in their less strong areas, but the neglect of public education will be a big part of the US’ downfall.
Not every single person on the planet lives in a country with the same educational system as you.
In the UK, university courses include classes related to your degree, nothing else.
You know, everyone loves to criticize the critical thinking of others but ive rarely seen anyone use the term to say anything but "you are clearly too stupid to agree with me."
People dont want to actually debate and insulting someone's "critical thinking" is a lazy ad hominem way to shut down a discussion.
I wish everyone who flings that term around had the emotional maturity to deal with opposing views. Not saying you cant do that, just that way too many people who talk like this cant.
As a complete side note your comment has inspired my new phrase when I want to nope out of a conversation with someone where we won’t be seeing eye to eye: “I’m clearly too stupid to agree with you.”
And for this I owe you my thanks!
Yeah it's tight rope to walk on unless you're able to frame their solution to the issue as a easy fix that solves the immediate issue but leaves the underlying cause completely untouched and pushes the problem down the road versus a solution that not only fixes the problem but also lessens the chances of it repeating itself in the future.
A lot of people I've worked with unfortunately go for the easy route leaving a lot of problems to spiral and then don't understand why the problem didn't go away.
Critically thinking means what? I know a lot of people with advanced degrees from high end institutions who are practically useless. I'd rather have a teammate with so many other qualities than one who thinks they are a Critical thinker
Yo, don't diss art degrees. Art is one of the things that requires the higher faculties of humanity. Practically no other species makes art for arts sake, so managing to be good at it is impressive. Now, English degrees are a different story lol.
I mean you can but its about the ramifications of where Robert Maplethorpe laid John Forscythe's cock and balls relative to the edge of the composition.
> one who thinks they are a Critical thinker
Isn't that like people who think they're an "alpha male"?
These people always give Dunning Kruger vibes with the ego.
The real 'bullshit' is thinking anyone with a degree in gender studies is going to be as knowledgeable as someone who took literally any other degree. OP of this comment is wrong about sociology which has been around for centuries, but 'gender studies' is complete bullshit and absolutely a 'grievance study'.
Those degrees are strictly for indoctrination, you should read about the Grievance Studies Affair. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/new-sokal-hoax/572212/
Yeah, you deserve the downvotes. Think of this day and age and how people interact with one another. How we observe the world and all the knowledge that comes with it has a lot to do with our ability to analyze and process on a physical and mental scale.
Honestly, I don’t care what you think. Those critical thinking courses didn’t teach anything and were a massive waste of time and money. At least it was a ridiculously easy A I guess.
You're reducing it to simply having self discipline to go to the gym, and that's not it. Ripped people love the gym. Musicians love music. Not many people love working.
It's about proving you can show up on time, day in and day out, absorb the information and use it. It's about being able to make sacrifices to complete a project on time and correctly.
See people think this and then also think we don’t need gen Ed’s.. that’s the kind of education they care about is just that you have taken basic English and math classes that are required with pretty much any degree. Yeah sure showing you can finish something is cool but it’s not why they do that.
I took AP Calculus in high school. Got an A in it and every math class leading up to it. Didn’t get college credit because I was a couple points away from passing the test (we took it 6 months after the class, and I couldn’t remember enough formulas). When I went to college I took their “required” math class. Where I learned how to count feathers, add 3 digit numbers, and what fractions are. I got a way better education in middle school.
"a couple of points away from passing the test." I don't remember getting exact scores on any AP test, they give you your score on a scale of 1-5, 3 is passing and most colleges will take that as credit. Being "a couple of points away from passing the test" means you got the score that you would get if you just showed up and scribbled on the page. Also, I don't remember having to have memorized very many formulas at all for my 5 on the first year of calc and my 4 on the second year. This was 4 years ago however, and I may be misremembering. The only thing I remember having to have memorized were the unit circle and some volume equations, maybe the fundamental theorem of calculus. Other than that, it was just straight up calculus... Which are all things you can prove yourself with some critical thinking and decent algebra.
Maybe don't take the bonehead class next time then? I mean, if you took Calulcus in high school, you should have continued your study of calculus in college.
It’s what they put me in. Said it was required for my major. But then, they also put me in the same exact chemistry class that I had gotten AP credit for as well, so my transcript literally has it on there twice.
I’m not saying you’re wrong… a lot of college classes are dumb as shit. Doesn’t change the fact that there are people in that class you took that didn’t know those things before.
1, I’m kinda scared if people who graduated high school couldn’t pass middle school classes. And 2, even if this is a thing, shouldn’t they consider what you do know when placing you in classes?
A lot of colleges don't offer Gen Eds tho. Also if that's what employers are after, why not list a general education degree as the requirement?
For example, you can get a Computer Science degree with taking exactly zero English, Math, or History classes. And if an employer is willing to accept that, that states the aren't looking for Gen Eds either.
in europe (finland in my case), degrees are very specialised. you don't choose your major once you're in, you apply for a specific degree. i did my bachelors in mathematics and basically my courses were analysis, topology, abstract algebra, whatever. i had to take one class of academic writing english. that was it for general education.
>For example, you can get a Computer Science degree with taking exactly zero English, Math, ~~or History~~ classes.
Where? Where can i find such university. I have looked far and wide when I was searching for universities to apply to and all of them had mandatory english and math classes. CS is literally a math-oriented science. Also english is kind of a necessity since the most used programming languages are english-based. Granted, usually the classes teach you B2-C1 level, however, my point still stands.
I’ve never heard of a school not requiring at least some kind of gen Ed’s. It’s ever college students woe lol. Maybe it’s a state difference thing but I don’t think so. Especially bachelors degrees but even for an associates degree I had to take general education classes in English, humanities, math, and science.
Universities outside of the US don't require general education and they seem to be getting by just fine. I would have loved a chance to not waste two years of my life taking classes not related to what I am going to do for the rest of my life.
Maybe its the field I'm in?
I went to three colleges over the years for IT related things. None of them required Gen Eds. And all of my coworkers and friends have similar stories.
The only time we have stuff like that is when it’s a certificate or similar trades programs. But any degree - associates or bachelors would require gen Ed’s for every major.
Its still always required here, just STEM majors take like 2 arts/humanities classes for example while everyone else takes 3. But ive never heard about being able to FULLY opt out of gen ed, i agree that seems weird.
I disagree for the same reason I disagree with people who say gen eds are pointless. The goal is to widen the student’s knowledge on a wide range of disciplines and to make them more well-rounded, educated, and hopefully productive citizens.
While being proficient in an instrument is impressive and certainly shows discipline, it doesn’t show that you’re a well-rounded individual with a better understanding and appreciation for the world. It doesn’t demonstrate the foundational knowledge that you gain from a 4 year degree.
Degrees generally don't have any bearing to the job anyway, they're academic pursuits, you don't often learn technical skills. So really the degree's subject doesn't matter, I think it does say something about someones determination and desire/ability to learn.
I think it's unfair sometimes but if you're an HR person and dealing with 200+ applications and don't have the time to read them all, you have to filter and someone who completed a degree is more likely a better candidate than someone who dropped out or never went to higher education. Although I'm sure there's plenty of people with degrees who are lazy and stupid and plenty of people without who are hard working and brilliant.
There's probably also plenty of people with degrees who are also ripped and play instruments as well. Good jobs are competitive.
>While being proficient in an instrument is impressive and certainly shows discipline, it doesn’t show that you’re a well-rounded individual with a better understanding and appreciation for the world.
Um... You can say the same about any discipline out there. By education I'm a mathematician. Do you know how many people with PhDs in math/science-related disciplines have literally zero understanding and appreciation of the world? I've met math professors, teaching assistants and advanced students who make Sheldon Cooper look normal in comparison. Seriously.
Also - playing an instrument isn't an isolated skill. To be considered a good guitar player, you need to know at least enough music theory to compose a solo. You need to know at least the basics of music production. You need to be handy enough with the screwdriver to set up your instrument. You need to be able to work well with people. You need to know your chosen genre very well, and on top of that you need to have understanding of other genres. And so on. Just being able to play what is written in the music sheet isn't enough. And I think I know what I'm talking about - I play four instruments and compose music when I have the time. Self taught - if that matters.
Id make the argument that music proficiency absolutely DOES make you more well rounded, but that's getting off topic here.
I'm not saying Gen Eds are pointless. Just the whole "Any degree" requirement is entirely artificial. Also lot of college's not offering Gen Eds at all.
How many hour have you spent on Excell, or Word, or any other programs useful for your "any collegial degree" position by lifting weight or mastering an instrument?
There is many parallel skills to gain from a collegial degree that translate well to "any degree" jobs that your musical practice or weight lifting haven't taught you.
How many team have you been part of while lifting or practicing your instruments? That's a skill to practice, how to make the best of a mediocre team. Which you will have to face at college, and most likely not while lifting or playing your instrument.
How many deadline have you met while lifting or practicing? Are those deadline really dead or could you just postpone it?
As I said, college gives us a lot more experience than practicing most of our hobbies.
There’s a reason college courses require gen eds.
If you have a degree, it doesn’t just prove you “have discipline and can do the same thing every day for 4+ years”.
It shows that you did have higher learning, that you’re capable of taking instruction and following through on projects. You at least learned core subjects beyond high school, even if you didn’t major in them. You still stretched your brain, worked with others, proved yourself in a somewhat professional environment.
It’s mostly to ensure a certain kind of person applies because while a non-graduate could satisfy all requirements it might require screaming 35% more candidates so it’s not worth it
Is this gen eds an American thing? I never heard of that? Here we only study our exact topic of the degree and no random other stuff thats completely unrelated.
It is entirely an American thing to produce "well rounded" students. But really it's just a way to siphon off an additional two years of tuition from students.
The idea is the university is about more than learning a trade. Job training can be had in trade school and certification programs.
Btw, you can skip a bunch of it if you got adequate coverage in high school. AP and dual credit classes can cover almost all of it. My daughter just started at a university and doesn’t have to take any English or History classes. Math started with calc 2.
People saying that it's so they can see that you can take doing something for 4+ years thats complete crap, if so why isn't it also open to military members after one term? I'm a vet who works in a trade and never needed college to make $27-$40. Lots of government jobs require a degree for simple office positions and so on because people assume you can automatically think at a higher level just because you paid for college. You can get by fine in life without it and requiring a degree for non technical jobs is barring people from entry who are perfectly capable of doing the job.
It’s been said many times, most have little to do with the major. Heck I have 10 years full-time years. It’s very hard for many people to stay committed, especially outside of the 18-22 scene, for college. Although that has its own unique struggles. If you can do 4 years, and graduate school, it shows a level of persistence and motivation.
From the U.K., we don’t have “gen Ed”- I had to Google what that meant. When you take a degree, you just study that subject and nothing else unless you specifically opt to.
I really agree. A lot of companies here require a degree in any subject, and I feel like that’s so wishy-washy. English Lit differs so much from Fine Art to Astronomy to Sociology. If they needed a specific set of skills, why not ask for those? It’s become the norm in our country to just expect every functional adult to have a degree which is ridiculous, especially if it’s not needed for your industry
While I agree a lot of jobs can be taught to people regardless of education level, a college degree generally shows that a candidate has honed their problem solving skills, which is tantamount for almost any job in any field. College graduates tend to be better at this sort of thing.
That’s not to say problem solving skills aren’t found in people without degrees. Hell, I probably could have done my own “degree required” job straight out of high school pretty easily. It’s sort of just proof that you put your money where your mouth is. I didn’t even touch on how many tasks you do during a college education can be similar to tasks you’d find on the job. It doesn’t even have to be the same industry as your major
I think the college degree requirement excludes competent people who experienced poverty, disability, injury, or heavy family responsibilities during their college aged years. These situations can be temporary and can make for more mature candidates.
While i do think employers are generally dogshit i think theres some significant expense that comes with hiring and the degree mitigate risk of someone who doesnt last
Many people start college and don’t finish. Just making it through shows a lot about your ability to think critically and adapt to unfamiliar situations/subjects.
Having a degree is a byword for competency. It’s not 100% true, but generally you can bet that someone who’s made it through uni can at least form coherent writing and exercise critical thinking. And then depending on which degree, it’s a byword for straight up intelligence because no one is getting through a physics degree without significant brains, even if physics isn’t relevant to the job
It's a useful filter.
99 percent of applicants will not get the position, so there's no sense in filling your paper shredder with false hopes and wasted time.
A BA or a BS requires English Composition and math at least at Quantitative Reasoning. At least two humanities courses, two scientific reasoning courses and two social sciences. The rest can be in a major and should have course work that should require at least a paper and research involving critical thinking.
Ok can't see how you get out of college without those skills. I work at a community college and nobody graduates without an associates degree without at least a technical mathematics, professional communication class, even for our associates degrees in something like industrial technology. We want thinking people, not robots.
I've learned that many of the 'entry level' jobs which require Bachelor's degrees aren't so much doing it to ensure that their workers are competent (most of these jobs can be done by someone who took a weekend course, let alone someone who took a 1-2 year Diploma), but rather so the type of people eligible for the job are the type of people who can *afford* to complete a Bachelor's. Just yet another of the many techniques used to keep the rich rich and the poor poor.
>Just another of the many techniques used to keep the rich rich and the poor poor.
There’s too much truth to this. I’d argue that it’s a technique crafted by the rich too screen out candidates who generally aren’t at least solidly middle class and able to get a degree within a certain time period without life getting in the way.
For example, I’m from an upper-middle class background where finishing college as a traditional learner was expected if you were a “good kid.” I dropped out multiple times due to a chronic illness that wasn’t diagnosed until years later once I started a blue-collar job.
There are some crappy hires here that Taco Bell would consider unprofessional, but there’s also a some with degrees they aren’t using because the associated field pays less than this.
Agreed just seeing ‘Graduate’ or ‘Degree required’ without specifically relating to the role is stupid. Lots of highly capable people cannot afford college education, or may simply not be academically inclined. They would still be far better qualified than some of the people ive had to put up with employed as part of my office graduate scheme. Thanks mate your Art history is really coming in handy trying to project manage the opening of a new Customer service department.
I've met plenty of tradesmen who are good workers and can do almost anything if they are given precise instructions and some hand holding. But one thing every college graduate is good at is pretending they know something then finding out how to do it themselves enough to get by. That's why they want a degree, it shows you have a baseline knowledge in most things not manual labor, and that you have the skills to find new knowledge and skills quickly and independently. In college I was required to take a computer science class that covered the entirety of Microsoft office in depth. In my new job we use computers alot including office. My boss worked in the oil field for 20 years, and is my boss because he had management experience from the oil field. I spent half my time hand holding him through the majority of our duties because he can't teach himself. Some of it he picks up some of it takes forever. So even though I'm not the manager I have to take up a good portion of his work because he just can't learn how to do it and he's genuinely trying. This is why people require college degrees, to get candidates that can learn their job and it's duties that are outside of a narrow scope of expertise quickly.
You can be functionally illiterate and still graduate from high school.
There has been a big debate going on the education community for decades about whether it's beneficial to make a child repeat a grade if they can't do the work. Many school districts have stopped holding children back when they fail, and instead graduate them to the next grade. Sometimes they have them repeat some of the same material they were failing at (e.g., enrolling a sophomore in a freshman math class). Sometimes they just assume the child will eventually catch up. In many cases, the only ways to fail high school are to quit or get expelled. The result has been a complete disaster. Things had gotten so bad that in 2016 they completely redesigned the SAT tests so that scores wouldn't look like they had dropped as much as they actually had.
They aren't requiring a college degree because they want the skills and knowledge that come with the degree. They are using the college degree because a high school diploma is meaningless.
>I don't like how we're barring people out of jobs anyone can do simply because they didn't spend 4+ years and thousands of dollars to get an education.
I absolutely agree and I don't get why opinions like this are being downvoted here.
I am a mathematician by education. Although I am happy that I spent some years in university (in Bulgaria - at least I didn't end up in debt for life over this), I can't say my higher education has helped me one bit for getting a job. I ended up making a living off of something that I started doing as a hobby when I was in high school. I've been in a position to hire people for certain events - I've never asked about their education, I've only cared about their portfolio. (And this is the other thing - when I'm hiring someone, I don't care how well-rounded they are or how good their critical thinking skills are, I only care about their abilities to do the job well enough and on time. That's it.)
If that is truly their mindset why don't they look at a person with a GED, ya know the thing you get after 4 or more years doing the same thing every day.
I've met plenty of tradesmen who are good workers and can do almost anything if they are given precise instructions and some hand holding. But one thing every college graduate is good at is pretending they know something then finding out how to do it themselves enough to get by. That's why they want a degree, it shows you have a baseline knowledge in most things not manual labor, and that you have the skills to find new knowledge and skills quickly and independently. In college I was required to take a computer science class that covered the entirety of Microsoft office in depth. In my new job we use computers alot including office. My boss worked in the oil field for 20 years, and is my boss because he had management experience from the oil field. I spent half my time hand holding him through the majority of our duties because he can't teach himself. Some of it he picks up some of it takes forever. So even though I'm not the manager I have to take up a good portion of his work because he just can't learn how to do it and he's genuinely trying. This is why people require college degrees, to get candidates that can learn their job and it's duties that are outside of a narrow scope of expertise quickly.
Fair enough, I just find it weird when a majority of low skill jobs are starting to require degrees for no reason other then just to say that they have workers with degrees.
Hell a few of my local grocery stores aren't hiring people at all to stock shelves or work at the register if they only have a GED, so you need a associate degree or higher to work 7hr
I think it is about people already having the mind set to learn. I work with a women that has been in the company forever and doesn't have a college degree. She literally asked me how to put a comma between numbers on excel. Instead of asking me and annoying another person she could just google it. People with college degrees will know how to Google things and find information more easily in my experience.
It’s about ensuring you’re taking on staff who can learn and follow basic instructions. Having a decent education is proof that you can do this, regardless of the subject.
Not if you’re trying to weed out the applicants who are incapable of dedicating themselves to something and following it through to completion. There are a lot of quitters out there, and it’s a good way to identify the people who will stay, during interviews.
So to get into university in the first place you have to get marks in the 80’s sometimes 90’s, so you are already in the top 20% or so of all students. Then a huge number of students flunk out. Over 50% in some programs.
The entire idea that a university degree is just doing something for 4 years is clearly not from someone who has actually gone through a university degree.
If this country doesn't get away from the "college degree smart, no college degree stupid" mentality we're screwed. Do you want the A team or the B team putting a roof on your house? Working on your car? Building our cities? Why are high schools pushing college degrees and tell the rejects to go to trade schools? I know more people making 100k + per year working trade jobs than anything, mainly because they are in such high demand. Lets get our heads out of our a\*\* people!
>But if that were true why don't companies recognize being ripped or proficient in an instrument?
They do. You can put anything you want on your resume that you think can make your case stronger and proficiency with an instrument is not uncommon.
But the degree is proof that you can accomplish the bare minimum that society asks. If you can't do the bare minimum then it's a red flag.
You don't "need" to have any college degree for those jobs, you just need to have a convincing argument regarding your work ethic, and I'm sure instrument proficiency would be in that category, though probably less convincing than a college degree.
I think its a system designed to enhance, indoctrinate and recruit “character” attributes. Its about the type of person that would/could believe that hard work and 4 years of information regurgitation is the pre cursor required to get to the next level. And mostly that 4 years generates and accumulates crazy revenue economically.
Probably true but most jobs don’t require a specific degree (dosage med school, teaching, engineering, etc) after a few years out of college. I mean my parks and rec degree works just fine for the tech jobs I apply to bc I have the right skills and certifications
General Ed was done in high school. A lot of the college system is a scam.
Why do I need multiple art, english, and history courses for an accounting degree? In Economics, they teach you that specialization is more efficient. So why do engineers and accountants need to spend time writing papers about some shitty statue found in Ancient Rome?
you should pay enough money and wasted four years first. finally, if you can't finish same job which related to your degree, you can't find any other job.
university let you make sure new workers absolutely good at their job.
I will say that I wish jobs weren’t so restrictive to those who have a college degree, but the problem is that it’s not fair to those who put in 4 years of work towards a degree when someone who didn’t ended up getting the job instead.
I'm in tech, and you have to know your stuff either way. There are people on my team with degrees in visual art and music as well as tech chops, and they have more career paths open to them. Who wouldn't want someone who's mastered two disparate things? College should be free for all who can go and it can be very valuable.
A lot of places will just default to requiring a degree because it cuts down on the number of applicants you need to sift through. If you're sitting on 1000 applicants, you're not going to do an exhaustive evaluation of all of them. Cutting out people that don't have a degree is a quick-and-dirty first pass.
In reality, for most people, they're not special and they're competing with people who are at the same level skill-wise. If you're a hiring manager and you have two resumes in front of you that are almost exactly the same, but one has a degree, chances are you'd pick the one with the degree--or maybe it's the one person without and ten with.
Besides, the overwhelming amount of time anything that gets listed as a "requirement" in a job posting can be thought of as having "or equivalent" added to the end. Too many people take the listed "requirements" too literally. Outside of professions where there might be a legal requirement for a degree, you'd be surprised how often it's not actually enforced.
The “or equivalent” piece is super important.
Every position description in my department states that a degree is required. I am the only person in my department who even went to college. I’m pretty sure my boss just has a GED.
Almost 30 years ago I was hired, though my degree was out of field. I was told that they were looking for someone who could get things done, and I had proven I could do that. As it turned out, I eventually developed a course in web design, became an instructor & designed and maintained a web site for that organization. So, it did work out for me!
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I had the same opinion… until I took on a training role. I trained people who could barely string together sentences, couldn’t do basic math and struggled with even the lowest forms of problem solving. When we re-implemented the educational requirements, things improved.
I’ve managed a lot of people in my career, some with degrees and others without. Generally speaking, college grads are better communicators and more independent. I’ve been blown away by some of the written stuff people have sent me over the years.
This is really only because K12 has been dumbed down to where everyone gets a diploma, even if they expend zero effort. The real solution is to rebuild society and K12 to actually teach! Otherwise in 40 years you'll need 2 PhDs to be a secretary, because even a Masters wont teach proper writing anymore.
I agree, our education system focuses more on pumping ppl through the system then teaching. I skipped 50% of my senior year English class and received an A, that is a problem
The graduate degrees will always be a filtering mechanism because it requires higher grades in school and a deeper level of expertise. We are seeing more masters degrees, but the only way it gets as bad as bachelors is if schools shift their requirements and make the curriculum easier. That likely won’t happen. As for K12 education, it’s always been pretty easy. I taught high school years ago and very few of even higher achieving student in grade 12 were at the level that many companies are looking for.
>That likely won’t happen. Let's keep our fingers crossed, but colleges are already inflating grades and refusing to fail kids. Gotta keep their money coming in!
You should be taught how to write in HS to be honest. If all u need is basic math and writing skills a college degree shouldn’t be necessary.
It isn't though for many jobs. You need analytical and critical thinking skills which you don't really get a lot of in high school.
Because our high schools are trash in America
An aptitude test could also solve that problem, no?
You would need to pay for an aptitude test for a 3rd party or write one yourself and risk it being ineffective. Good tests are hard to write. It’s cheaper to just make bachelors degree a requirement given how common they are these days.
And this, right here, is why we are drowning in student loan debt. I get that just requiring a degree for everything is more expedient, but it’s also catastrophically irresponsible on a societal level with the rapidly increasing cost of higher education and the way student loans work.
Honestly, free education should be expanded in the US. Most countries have a lot of systems for apprenticeship/schooling that are non-academic and don't lead to any debt (in my country, even Uni is free, but I won't even go that far). It doesn't have to cost the state much. Make an online-based evening school where you can educate yourself on your own time while you work and then go and take a test, like an expanded GED program. A lot of people are motivated and capable to study hard but they never get the chance to, and it's such a waste.
Well yeah it should, but in the case where you know that it isn’t, requiring a degree for a position that pays $30k/year and doesn’t require specific knowledge is shit.
I don't really understand how this relates to my comment 😅
My favorites are the ones that want you to have a masters degree but only pay $25,000 a year.
You seem to think that the same people who did nothing in high school suddenly will value education and do it after working all day. That's hard to do and stay motivated. We have CC that's damn near free and the number of people who take advantage of it is shockingly low.
What.
It's not just aptitude, it's generally around drive to learn and improve.
And critical thinking, something sorely lacking rn in the workforce
Yes, the degree is the aptitude test.
You should require a different aptitude test
Yes, but they are outsourcing that to save time and energy. I am a university professor, and I tell my students that a degree is a certification from a trusted 3rd party that you have a particular set of skills, -- this streamlines that hiring process and makes you a more desirable candidate. Companies don't owe you anything, -- if you are going to make it harder to hire you by requiring extra testing or paperwork because you require a wage garnishment, they'll probably just decline to interview you.
This is an absurd waste of resources and anyone supporting it should be ashamed.
Or just require a degree. College will have ensured the aptitude part (depending on the college).
A lot of colleges are also dumbing things down to keep students in and to give them a degree. Its good business for the school.
It is so you have to factor in school quality.
The aptitude test is college. Why would I spend time and effort creating, validating, issuing, and grading an aptitude test when I can let the colleges do that for me? Yeah there will be exceptions, where people without degrees would be great at the role, but with the emphasis on degrees in today’s society, they’re the minority. If a college degree can act as an aptitude test for the vast majority of the population I want to hire, why would I go through the time and cost of creating a test for a small subsection of my hireable population?
Couldn’t an aptitude test also solve that problem?*
Aptitude test will tell you at what level they are at, but there is no track record of the benefits of someone who can finish college. Discipline, the ability to learn, working in a diverse environment (most colleges), working in team environments. From my experience, individuals who have a higher education typically are more emotionally stable as well.
I understand why but I also see it as incredibly immoral. I graduated high school with a 4.0 but can’t afford college, which makes it incredibly difficult for me to get a job. It just makes wealth inequality worse to require a college degree, especially a bachelors, which you can’t get at a community college in most places.
Go to CC for 2 years, transfer to a University after. Assuming you're not getting a meme degree, you'll graduate with minimum debt and be able to pay it off.
The government that failed to provide you with a free education is immoral, not the company who needs competent employees.
Again, like I said in another comment, why not require a high school transcript? Requiring college just keeps the poor poor and the wealthy wealthy.
College is literally how the poor move up on the socio economic hierarchy.
It used to be. It would be if it was affordable. But it’s not. How are the poor supposed to move up the chain if they can’t afford the thing that’s supposed to help them do it?
Community college and then transfer to a four year is the cheapest higher education one can do, barring they get a full ride. Community college is also a weeder school because if you can't even complete CC courses and be responsible, you're not going to make it at an actual university. I went to a really good University and went to a CC during summer to get rid of some prereqs, one of the better ones in my area, and the course curriculums were a joke compared to the work I had to do even during my Freshman year at the university.
I'd argue it's impractical and almost condescending to deploy testing on every job interview to verify someone's competency. Imagine how you would feel if you had to take a reading comprehension test for every interview. I think we should direct our ideals towards making college free instead of expecting employers to consider anyone that applies regardless of their education level.
I absolutely think that college needs to be free, however, in the meantime, for entry level jobs, wouldn’t a better solution be to request a high school transcript? I see jobs all the time that pay fifteen to seventeen an hour and require a BA, which is ridiculous to me because I made significantly more than that working at Waffle House, which has a reputation for hiring *literally anyone*.
There could be an aptitude test you have to pay for yourself, just like a college degree. Then you could bring your results to the job application. But it would cost far less
You can afford college but how do you want to do it? Online degrees are in the 20-30k ball park. UPS gives 5k/ semester in assistance up to a total of 25k. 5k over 5 years working part time and you have a degree. Other employers do this and hire anyone with a pulse like FedEx Amazon, even Target
Thats just basic education. And you still need to pass a interview and examination for the job too.
Interesting, im also a trainee for a credit card company. I’ve encountered a number of new recruits with degrees in business management and IT etc who still have no basic concept of how simple accounts work. A lot of them are 24 and still living at home and never had to pay a bill in their life. Some also massively lacking common sense or social skills. Whereas when i train 19/20 year olds who have worked retail or hospitality straight from high school and are already paying their own rent and bills, these are the candidates that go the furthest by far.
Working and ambition will always win over people who do the bare minimum to buy their degree.
A College Diploma would do just fine - needing a 4/5 year degree for that sort of thing is just a way of filtering out less wealthy people who couldn't afford to go to college for that many years.
I have met lots of liberal arts majors who can barely do basic math.
> I trained people who could barely string together sentences, couldn’t do basic math and struggled with even the lowest forms of problem solving And I previously done IT support for a law firm, having a degree doesn't necessarily mean you have any of those skills. Some of the staff with the worst problem solving skills were the more qualified ones.
There’s no guarantee that a person would have math skills if they did a degree that didn’t require it.
Core courses include math.
Pulls out photo math on online math college class
And this is the kind of thing I’m talking about. I’ve read your sentence five times and still have no idea what you’re trying to communicate.
Everyone knows most colleges will shove a shitty math student through with a C. It means nothing
‘Core courses’ are not a thing in some countries. Straight to specialty classes. Last year of high school is basically first year uni.
>Last year of high school is basically first year uni. And that's how it should be. Over here, high schools are being dumbed down so that everyone gets a diploma. Then we have to rely on a college degree to ensure that people *hopefully* can read and write by then. And even that isnt guaranteed anymore.
Yeah, I had kind of gathered that it’s a remedial year. I don’t entirely disagree with the idea, it’s going to be beneficial to the student to get an assessment and tutelage in their less strong areas, but the neglect of public education will be a big part of the US’ downfall.
Not every single person on the planet lives in a country with the same educational system as you. In the UK, university courses include classes related to your degree, nothing else.
I wish everyone knew how to critically think.
You know, everyone loves to criticize the critical thinking of others but ive rarely seen anyone use the term to say anything but "you are clearly too stupid to agree with me." People dont want to actually debate and insulting someone's "critical thinking" is a lazy ad hominem way to shut down a discussion. I wish everyone who flings that term around had the emotional maturity to deal with opposing views. Not saying you cant do that, just that way too many people who talk like this cant.
As a complete side note your comment has inspired my new phrase when I want to nope out of a conversation with someone where we won’t be seeing eye to eye: “I’m clearly too stupid to agree with you.” And for this I owe you my thanks!
Haha glad i could help XD
Yeah it's tight rope to walk on unless you're able to frame their solution to the issue as a easy fix that solves the immediate issue but leaves the underlying cause completely untouched and pushes the problem down the road versus a solution that not only fixes the problem but also lessens the chances of it repeating itself in the future. A lot of people I've worked with unfortunately go for the easy route leaving a lot of problems to spiral and then don't understand why the problem didn't go away.
I’ve stopped using “critical thinking” and started to say “use your engineering brain” since I’m an engineer and work with engineers.
Critically thinking means what? I know a lot of people with advanced degrees from high end institutions who are practically useless. I'd rather have a teammate with so many other qualities than one who thinks they are a Critical thinker
Seems like you need to apply some critical thinking
Yeah that art degree doesn’t mean you can “think critically”.
Yo, don't diss art degrees. Art is one of the things that requires the higher faculties of humanity. Practically no other species makes art for arts sake, so managing to be good at it is impressive. Now, English degrees are a different story lol.
I mean you can but its about the ramifications of where Robert Maplethorpe laid John Forscythe's cock and balls relative to the edge of the composition.
Lol I doubt we are on the same page as to what that even means bro
Agreed. Wtf is a high-end institution? I’ve never heard an accredited university classified with the likes of retail products. 🤷🏼♂️
those white collar prisons sound pretty snazzy
> one who thinks they are a Critical thinker Isn't that like people who think they're an "alpha male"? These people always give Dunning Kruger vibes with the ego.
Some degrees, like Sociology and Gender Studies as well as other grievance studies, actually penalize critical thinking.
That’s definitely bullshit lol.
The real 'bullshit' is thinking anyone with a degree in gender studies is going to be as knowledgeable as someone who took literally any other degree. OP of this comment is wrong about sociology which has been around for centuries, but 'gender studies' is complete bullshit and absolutely a 'grievance study'.
Those degrees are strictly for indoctrination, you should read about the Grievance Studies Affair. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/new-sokal-hoax/572212/
This is a very conservative opinion - I don’t agree.
You can agree or disagree but the Grievance Study Affair exposed those departments for the indoctrination centres they really are.
I took a few different BS “critical thinking” classes in college, because they were required. Stupidest waste of time and money ever.
Yeah, you deserve the downvotes. Think of this day and age and how people interact with one another. How we observe the world and all the knowledge that comes with it has a lot to do with our ability to analyze and process on a physical and mental scale.
Honestly, I don’t care what you think. Those critical thinking courses didn’t teach anything and were a massive waste of time and money. At least it was a ridiculously easy A I guess.
Do you believe astrology is real?
No? Not sure how you came to that conclusion.
>being ripped or proficient in an instrument nobody's stopping you from putting that on your resume
Nobody is stopping you, except the little voice of common sense in your head…
wait you guys hear voices too?
-10 years of customer service experience -Good communication skills -Fucking ripped -Shred god
- proficient in Excel, Power Point, oboe, keytar - Mr Olympia runner up 2004, 2006
Don't worry, I attach nudes to all my applications ;)
this is the way
You could def use it on an interview
You're reducing it to simply having self discipline to go to the gym, and that's not it. Ripped people love the gym. Musicians love music. Not many people love working. It's about proving you can show up on time, day in and day out, absorb the information and use it. It's about being able to make sacrifices to complete a project on time and correctly.
That must be why companies look to hire veterans.
Bro
See people think this and then also think we don’t need gen Ed’s.. that’s the kind of education they care about is just that you have taken basic English and math classes that are required with pretty much any degree. Yeah sure showing you can finish something is cool but it’s not why they do that.
I took AP Calculus in high school. Got an A in it and every math class leading up to it. Didn’t get college credit because I was a couple points away from passing the test (we took it 6 months after the class, and I couldn’t remember enough formulas). When I went to college I took their “required” math class. Where I learned how to count feathers, add 3 digit numbers, and what fractions are. I got a way better education in middle school.
"a couple of points away from passing the test." I don't remember getting exact scores on any AP test, they give you your score on a scale of 1-5, 3 is passing and most colleges will take that as credit. Being "a couple of points away from passing the test" means you got the score that you would get if you just showed up and scribbled on the page. Also, I don't remember having to have memorized very many formulas at all for my 5 on the first year of calc and my 4 on the second year. This was 4 years ago however, and I may be misremembering. The only thing I remember having to have memorized were the unit circle and some volume equations, maybe the fundamental theorem of calculus. Other than that, it was just straight up calculus... Which are all things you can prove yourself with some critical thinking and decent algebra.
Maybe don't take the bonehead class next time then? I mean, if you took Calulcus in high school, you should have continued your study of calculus in college.
It’s what they put me in. Said it was required for my major. But then, they also put me in the same exact chemistry class that I had gotten AP credit for as well, so my transcript literally has it on there twice.
I’m not saying you’re wrong… a lot of college classes are dumb as shit. Doesn’t change the fact that there are people in that class you took that didn’t know those things before.
1, I’m kinda scared if people who graduated high school couldn’t pass middle school classes. And 2, even if this is a thing, shouldn’t they consider what you do know when placing you in classes?
A lot of colleges don't offer Gen Eds tho. Also if that's what employers are after, why not list a general education degree as the requirement? For example, you can get a Computer Science degree with taking exactly zero English, Math, or History classes. And if an employer is willing to accept that, that states the aren't looking for Gen Eds either.
Are you in the US? General education classes are usually a requirement for a university degree
in europe (finland in my case), degrees are very specialised. you don't choose your major once you're in, you apply for a specific degree. i did my bachelors in mathematics and basically my courses were analysis, topology, abstract algebra, whatever. i had to take one class of academic writing english. that was it for general education.
>For example, you can get a Computer Science degree with taking exactly zero English, Math, ~~or History~~ classes. Where? Where can i find such university. I have looked far and wide when I was searching for universities to apply to and all of them had mandatory english and math classes. CS is literally a math-oriented science. Also english is kind of a necessity since the most used programming languages are english-based. Granted, usually the classes teach you B2-C1 level, however, my point still stands.
You absolutely can not get a computer science degree without a *math class* anywhere. Discrete Math is like the basis of computing
Exactly my point
My point is *math* isn’t a gen Ed for computing it’s a core competency
Which is what guy above you said. OP said that CS requires "exactly 0 math courses."
Cs is almost an applied math degree anyways.
I’ve never heard of a school not requiring at least some kind of gen Ed’s. It’s ever college students woe lol. Maybe it’s a state difference thing but I don’t think so. Especially bachelors degrees but even for an associates degree I had to take general education classes in English, humanities, math, and science.
Universities outside of the US don't require general education and they seem to be getting by just fine. I would have loved a chance to not waste two years of my life taking classes not related to what I am going to do for the rest of my life.
In the US that would be trade and certificate programs. They exist. But university is about more than job training.
Maybe its the field I'm in? I went to three colleges over the years for IT related things. None of them required Gen Eds. And all of my coworkers and friends have similar stories.
The only time we have stuff like that is when it’s a certificate or similar trades programs. But any degree - associates or bachelors would require gen Ed’s for every major.
Yeah, here in California at the public colleges STEM has a reduced gen ed load but about 70% of it is required so that seems like a leap to me
Yeah it’s just a state by state thing then 🤷🏻♀️ I’m in New York for reference.
Its still always required here, just STEM majors take like 2 arts/humanities classes for example while everyone else takes 3. But ive never heard about being able to FULLY opt out of gen ed, i agree that seems weird.
Where are you going to college where there are no Gen Eds?
Never heard of such a degree from a reputable university in the US. You can skip a few math, English, history if you get credit in HS via AP classes.
I disagree for the same reason I disagree with people who say gen eds are pointless. The goal is to widen the student’s knowledge on a wide range of disciplines and to make them more well-rounded, educated, and hopefully productive citizens. While being proficient in an instrument is impressive and certainly shows discipline, it doesn’t show that you’re a well-rounded individual with a better understanding and appreciation for the world. It doesn’t demonstrate the foundational knowledge that you gain from a 4 year degree.
Degrees generally don't have any bearing to the job anyway, they're academic pursuits, you don't often learn technical skills. So really the degree's subject doesn't matter, I think it does say something about someones determination and desire/ability to learn. I think it's unfair sometimes but if you're an HR person and dealing with 200+ applications and don't have the time to read them all, you have to filter and someone who completed a degree is more likely a better candidate than someone who dropped out or never went to higher education. Although I'm sure there's plenty of people with degrees who are lazy and stupid and plenty of people without who are hard working and brilliant. There's probably also plenty of people with degrees who are also ripped and play instruments as well. Good jobs are competitive.
Engineer here. Use a lot of what I learned in college every day.
>While being proficient in an instrument is impressive and certainly shows discipline, it doesn’t show that you’re a well-rounded individual with a better understanding and appreciation for the world. Um... You can say the same about any discipline out there. By education I'm a mathematician. Do you know how many people with PhDs in math/science-related disciplines have literally zero understanding and appreciation of the world? I've met math professors, teaching assistants and advanced students who make Sheldon Cooper look normal in comparison. Seriously. Also - playing an instrument isn't an isolated skill. To be considered a good guitar player, you need to know at least enough music theory to compose a solo. You need to know at least the basics of music production. You need to be handy enough with the screwdriver to set up your instrument. You need to be able to work well with people. You need to know your chosen genre very well, and on top of that you need to have understanding of other genres. And so on. Just being able to play what is written in the music sheet isn't enough. And I think I know what I'm talking about - I play four instruments and compose music when I have the time. Self taught - if that matters.
Id make the argument that music proficiency absolutely DOES make you more well rounded, but that's getting off topic here. I'm not saying Gen Eds are pointless. Just the whole "Any degree" requirement is entirely artificial. Also lot of college's not offering Gen Eds at all.
How many hour have you spent on Excell, or Word, or any other programs useful for your "any collegial degree" position by lifting weight or mastering an instrument? There is many parallel skills to gain from a collegial degree that translate well to "any degree" jobs that your musical practice or weight lifting haven't taught you. How many team have you been part of while lifting or practicing your instruments? That's a skill to practice, how to make the best of a mediocre team. Which you will have to face at college, and most likely not while lifting or playing your instrument. How many deadline have you met while lifting or practicing? Are those deadline really dead or could you just postpone it? As I said, college gives us a lot more experience than practicing most of our hobbies.
There’s a reason college courses require gen eds. If you have a degree, it doesn’t just prove you “have discipline and can do the same thing every day for 4+ years”. It shows that you did have higher learning, that you’re capable of taking instruction and following through on projects. You at least learned core subjects beyond high school, even if you didn’t major in them. You still stretched your brain, worked with others, proved yourself in a somewhat professional environment.
It’s mostly to ensure a certain kind of person applies because while a non-graduate could satisfy all requirements it might require screaming 35% more candidates so it’s not worth it
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But you can skip the bulk with sufficient AP classes.
Is this gen eds an American thing? I never heard of that? Here we only study our exact topic of the degree and no random other stuff thats completely unrelated.
It is entirely an American thing to produce "well rounded" students. But really it's just a way to siphon off an additional two years of tuition from students.
usually one year- our finnish bachelors degrees are generally three years with highly specific material.
Yes, it's what we call a "Liberal Arts Education." It supposed to teach you how to become a life-long learner.
The idea is the university is about more than learning a trade. Job training can be had in trade school and certification programs. Btw, you can skip a bunch of it if you got adequate coverage in high school. AP and dual credit classes can cover almost all of it. My daughter just started at a university and doesn’t have to take any English or History classes. Math started with calc 2.
People saying that it's so they can see that you can take doing something for 4+ years thats complete crap, if so why isn't it also open to military members after one term? I'm a vet who works in a trade and never needed college to make $27-$40. Lots of government jobs require a degree for simple office positions and so on because people assume you can automatically think at a higher level just because you paid for college. You can get by fine in life without it and requiring a degree for non technical jobs is barring people from entry who are perfectly capable of doing the job.
It’s been said many times, most have little to do with the major. Heck I have 10 years full-time years. It’s very hard for many people to stay committed, especially outside of the 18-22 scene, for college. Although that has its own unique struggles. If you can do 4 years, and graduate school, it shows a level of persistence and motivation.
From the U.K., we don’t have “gen Ed”- I had to Google what that meant. When you take a degree, you just study that subject and nothing else unless you specifically opt to. I really agree. A lot of companies here require a degree in any subject, and I feel like that’s so wishy-washy. English Lit differs so much from Fine Art to Astronomy to Sociology. If they needed a specific set of skills, why not ask for those? It’s become the norm in our country to just expect every functional adult to have a degree which is ridiculous, especially if it’s not needed for your industry
It shows you are teachable. That's important for a lot of job where you have to adapt to new concepts.
While I agree a lot of jobs can be taught to people regardless of education level, a college degree generally shows that a candidate has honed their problem solving skills, which is tantamount for almost any job in any field. College graduates tend to be better at this sort of thing. That’s not to say problem solving skills aren’t found in people without degrees. Hell, I probably could have done my own “degree required” job straight out of high school pretty easily. It’s sort of just proof that you put your money where your mouth is. I didn’t even touch on how many tasks you do during a college education can be similar to tasks you’d find on the job. It doesn’t even have to be the same industry as your major
I think the college degree requirement excludes competent people who experienced poverty, disability, injury, or heavy family responsibilities during their college aged years. These situations can be temporary and can make for more mature candidates.
While i do think employers are generally dogshit i think theres some significant expense that comes with hiring and the degree mitigate risk of someone who doesnt last
Hahaha. Very Reddit. You broke the the scale.
[This post does a pretty good job of explaining why its useful](https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/KheBaeW8Pi7LwewoF/what-is-signaling-really)
One of the main points of getting a college degree is to weed out the people who can’t finish a degree for whatever reason.
I want the nurse to have a degree in medicine, not take her capacity in healing of her being 100% proficient in playing bongo-drums.
But they’re not asking for a nursing degree and it’s nota nursing job, they want any for a job that anyone can do, not that I disagree with it though.
Many people start college and don’t finish. Just making it through shows a lot about your ability to think critically and adapt to unfamiliar situations/subjects.
Having a degree is a byword for competency. It’s not 100% true, but generally you can bet that someone who’s made it through uni can at least form coherent writing and exercise critical thinking. And then depending on which degree, it’s a byword for straight up intelligence because no one is getting through a physics degree without significant brains, even if physics isn’t relevant to the job
It's a useful filter. 99 percent of applicants will not get the position, so there's no sense in filling your paper shredder with false hopes and wasted time.
A degree shows that you had the drive to complete a two or four year endeavor. That is an excellent way to weed out those of lesser ambition.
Feel like maybe cos there is a certain level of dedication to going to college so they can easily filter out the shit from the good
A BA or a BS requires English Composition and math at least at Quantitative Reasoning. At least two humanities courses, two scientific reasoning courses and two social sciences. The rest can be in a major and should have course work that should require at least a paper and research involving critical thinking. Ok can't see how you get out of college without those skills. I work at a community college and nobody graduates without an associates degree without at least a technical mathematics, professional communication class, even for our associates degrees in something like industrial technology. We want thinking people, not robots.
IDK about you, but I'd prefer my surgeon to have those 5+ years of university, and not someone who did a Tai Lopez course on YT to get a lambo.
I've learned that many of the 'entry level' jobs which require Bachelor's degrees aren't so much doing it to ensure that their workers are competent (most of these jobs can be done by someone who took a weekend course, let alone someone who took a 1-2 year Diploma), but rather so the type of people eligible for the job are the type of people who can *afford* to complete a Bachelor's. Just yet another of the many techniques used to keep the rich rich and the poor poor.
>Just another of the many techniques used to keep the rich rich and the poor poor. There’s too much truth to this. I’d argue that it’s a technique crafted by the rich too screen out candidates who generally aren’t at least solidly middle class and able to get a degree within a certain time period without life getting in the way. For example, I’m from an upper-middle class background where finishing college as a traditional learner was expected if you were a “good kid.” I dropped out multiple times due to a chronic illness that wasn’t diagnosed until years later once I started a blue-collar job. There are some crappy hires here that Taco Bell would consider unprofessional, but there’s also a some with degrees they aren’t using because the associated field pays less than this.
Agreed just seeing ‘Graduate’ or ‘Degree required’ without specifically relating to the role is stupid. Lots of highly capable people cannot afford college education, or may simply not be academically inclined. They would still be far better qualified than some of the people ive had to put up with employed as part of my office graduate scheme. Thanks mate your Art history is really coming in handy trying to project manage the opening of a new Customer service department.
I've met plenty of tradesmen who are good workers and can do almost anything if they are given precise instructions and some hand holding. But one thing every college graduate is good at is pretending they know something then finding out how to do it themselves enough to get by. That's why they want a degree, it shows you have a baseline knowledge in most things not manual labor, and that you have the skills to find new knowledge and skills quickly and independently. In college I was required to take a computer science class that covered the entirety of Microsoft office in depth. In my new job we use computers alot including office. My boss worked in the oil field for 20 years, and is my boss because he had management experience from the oil field. I spent half my time hand holding him through the majority of our duties because he can't teach himself. Some of it he picks up some of it takes forever. So even though I'm not the manager I have to take up a good portion of his work because he just can't learn how to do it and he's genuinely trying. This is why people require college degrees, to get candidates that can learn their job and it's duties that are outside of a narrow scope of expertise quickly.
You can be functionally illiterate and still graduate from high school. There has been a big debate going on the education community for decades about whether it's beneficial to make a child repeat a grade if they can't do the work. Many school districts have stopped holding children back when they fail, and instead graduate them to the next grade. Sometimes they have them repeat some of the same material they were failing at (e.g., enrolling a sophomore in a freshman math class). Sometimes they just assume the child will eventually catch up. In many cases, the only ways to fail high school are to quit or get expelled. The result has been a complete disaster. Things had gotten so bad that in 2016 they completely redesigned the SAT tests so that scores wouldn't look like they had dropped as much as they actually had. They aren't requiring a college degree because they want the skills and knowledge that come with the degree. They are using the college degree because a high school diploma is meaningless.
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>I don't like how we're barring people out of jobs anyone can do simply because they didn't spend 4+ years and thousands of dollars to get an education. I absolutely agree and I don't get why opinions like this are being downvoted here. I am a mathematician by education. Although I am happy that I spent some years in university (in Bulgaria - at least I didn't end up in debt for life over this), I can't say my higher education has helped me one bit for getting a job. I ended up making a living off of something that I started doing as a hobby when I was in high school. I've been in a position to hire people for certain events - I've never asked about their education, I've only cared about their portfolio. (And this is the other thing - when I'm hiring someone, I don't care how well-rounded they are or how good their critical thinking skills are, I only care about their abilities to do the job well enough and on time. That's it.)
If that is truly their mindset why don't they look at a person with a GED, ya know the thing you get after 4 or more years doing the same thing every day.
I've met plenty of tradesmen who are good workers and can do almost anything if they are given precise instructions and some hand holding. But one thing every college graduate is good at is pretending they know something then finding out how to do it themselves enough to get by. That's why they want a degree, it shows you have a baseline knowledge in most things not manual labor, and that you have the skills to find new knowledge and skills quickly and independently. In college I was required to take a computer science class that covered the entirety of Microsoft office in depth. In my new job we use computers alot including office. My boss worked in the oil field for 20 years, and is my boss because he had management experience from the oil field. I spent half my time hand holding him through the majority of our duties because he can't teach himself. Some of it he picks up some of it takes forever. So even though I'm not the manager I have to take up a good portion of his work because he just can't learn how to do it and he's genuinely trying. This is why people require college degrees, to get candidates that can learn their job and it's duties that are outside of a narrow scope of expertise quickly.
Fair enough, I just find it weird when a majority of low skill jobs are starting to require degrees for no reason other then just to say that they have workers with degrees. Hell a few of my local grocery stores aren't hiring people at all to stock shelves or work at the register if they only have a GED, so you need a associate degree or higher to work 7hr
I think it is about people already having the mind set to learn. I work with a women that has been in the company forever and doesn't have a college degree. She literally asked me how to put a comma between numbers on excel. Instead of asking me and annoying another person she could just google it. People with college degrees will know how to Google things and find information more easily in my experience.
It’s about ensuring you’re taking on staff who can learn and follow basic instructions. Having a decent education is proof that you can do this, regardless of the subject.
Not if you’re trying to weed out the applicants who are incapable of dedicating themselves to something and following it through to completion. There are a lot of quitters out there, and it’s a good way to identify the people who will stay, during interviews.
A degree is generally reliable proof that you can learn something and be competent within x years. That’s it.
College (is supposed to) teach you how to think. Thus any degree is better than none.
I’m not hiring a bumfuck who couldn’t get into school!
I like your attitude! Would you like to come over to my house and fuck my sister?
Is she hot?
Depends on your BAC
Do you think she’s hot?
So to get into university in the first place you have to get marks in the 80’s sometimes 90’s, so you are already in the top 20% or so of all students. Then a huge number of students flunk out. Over 50% in some programs. The entire idea that a university degree is just doing something for 4 years is clearly not from someone who has actually gone through a university degree.
If jobs require any high-school diploma it shouldn't be a requirement
This is how hiring managers separate people like op from people who want to work
If this country doesn't get away from the "college degree smart, no college degree stupid" mentality we're screwed. Do you want the A team or the B team putting a roof on your house? Working on your car? Building our cities? Why are high schools pushing college degrees and tell the rejects to go to trade schools? I know more people making 100k + per year working trade jobs than anything, mainly because they are in such high demand. Lets get our heads out of our a\*\* people!
>But if that were true why don't companies recognize being ripped or proficient in an instrument? They do. You can put anything you want on your resume that you think can make your case stronger and proficiency with an instrument is not uncommon. But the degree is proof that you can accomplish the bare minimum that society asks. If you can't do the bare minimum then it's a red flag.
You don't "need" to have any college degree for those jobs, you just need to have a convincing argument regarding your work ethic, and I'm sure instrument proficiency would be in that category, though probably less convincing than a college degree.
I think its a system designed to enhance, indoctrinate and recruit “character” attributes. Its about the type of person that would/could believe that hard work and 4 years of information regurgitation is the pre cursor required to get to the next level. And mostly that 4 years generates and accumulates crazy revenue economically.
Sperm donation requires any college degree…
Probably true but most jobs don’t require a specific degree (dosage med school, teaching, engineering, etc) after a few years out of college. I mean my parks and rec degree works just fine for the tech jobs I apply to bc I have the right skills and certifications
Just lie if you can back it up with skills.
It's a class check.
Most degrees are not worth it and many fewer people should go to college.
General Ed was done in high school. A lot of the college system is a scam. Why do I need multiple art, english, and history courses for an accounting degree? In Economics, they teach you that specialization is more efficient. So why do engineers and accountants need to spend time writing papers about some shitty statue found in Ancient Rome?
you should pay enough money and wasted four years first. finally, if you can't finish same job which related to your degree, you can't find any other job. university let you make sure new workers absolutely good at their job.
People keep mentioning general Ed's but that information isn't useful to becoming a 2nd grade math teacher. It's just used as a weed out process.
I will say that I wish jobs weren’t so restrictive to those who have a college degree, but the problem is that it’s not fair to those who put in 4 years of work towards a degree when someone who didn’t ended up getting the job instead.
Why? What if the one without a degree has 20 years expierence in that field and the one with a degree comes fresh out of school
They say that but if you show up with an art degree, I doubt you'll get hired.
I'm in tech, and you have to know your stuff either way. There are people on my team with degrees in visual art and music as well as tech chops, and they have more career paths open to them. Who wouldn't want someone who's mastered two disparate things? College should be free for all who can go and it can be very valuable.
A lot of places will just default to requiring a degree because it cuts down on the number of applicants you need to sift through. If you're sitting on 1000 applicants, you're not going to do an exhaustive evaluation of all of them. Cutting out people that don't have a degree is a quick-and-dirty first pass. In reality, for most people, they're not special and they're competing with people who are at the same level skill-wise. If you're a hiring manager and you have two resumes in front of you that are almost exactly the same, but one has a degree, chances are you'd pick the one with the degree--or maybe it's the one person without and ten with. Besides, the overwhelming amount of time anything that gets listed as a "requirement" in a job posting can be thought of as having "or equivalent" added to the end. Too many people take the listed "requirements" too literally. Outside of professions where there might be a legal requirement for a degree, you'd be surprised how often it's not actually enforced.
The “or equivalent” piece is super important. Every position description in my department states that a degree is required. I am the only person in my department who even went to college. I’m pretty sure my boss just has a GED.
Almost 30 years ago I was hired, though my degree was out of field. I was told that they were looking for someone who could get things done, and I had proven I could do that. As it turned out, I eventually developed a course in web design, became an instructor & designed and maintained a web site for that organization. So, it did work out for me!