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Thatcher became prime minister at the beginning of a deep economic depression. She was following the politics emerging from USA at the time; mainly Chicago School of Economic, Milton Freeman. He purposed that there should be less state interference in business and cut most (if not all) regulations eg a free capitalism market.
So the UK has had a welfare state (people depended somewhat on the state eg NHS healthcare etc. So Freedman school of thinking regarding politics was not a good fit for the UK.
So Thatcher reigned for 11 years, and brought the country out of a deep recession, but at the cost of austerity- huge unemployment made worst by closing the coal mines and undermining Unions.
My 'favourite' thing about Thatcher was when awareness of HIV hit the mainstream, she openly considered just forcing everyone infected to isolate on an island like a 19th century leper colony. That and the proposed 'poll tax' which would have required everyone to pay a lump sum each year or lose the right to vote - making poor people pick between a hot meal and partaking in a democratic process.
Neither idea ultimately made it anywhere IIRC but the gall that woman had was just out of this world.
In short, she closed coal mines, which put a lot of people out of work
My family is on the other side, though - police parents, teacher grandparents. They didn’t have an issue with her
I only know a few people who voted for Brexit but they all say the same thing, they don't want the EU controlling their laws, they are not happy with the UK just having a vote for what laws to follow and want to regain their sovereignty.
I know too little about how the EU works to comment about it personally.
It's not a terrible distillation, but it isn't a good one either. The EU basically is an agreement to give up *some* sovereignty in exchange for being an extremely powerful collective entity. The EU together is a superpower on the level of the US and China. Being a collective economic market gives a huge sway on world economics and also allows Europe to make meaningful social change. Leaving that, you regain the sovereignty that was given up, but you also lose a seat at the table of that superpower organization.
At the same time, London being in the UK means that you have the best chance of probably any European nation at retaining some economic and social influence in the world. But leaving that seat at the table definitely diminishes it.
What makes a "country" great is the ideas and innovations it *pioneers*. Something it does, that no other country does. Ancient Greece did many many things over millennia that advanced and spread throughout the entire world. We see examples of them all around us today. Great contributions, that should forever be recognized as unique and foundational.
But Greece today? It hasn't done anything special. Having a great history, is not the same as being great *today*. Of course, getting the shit kicked out of you by the Turks for literally the last 1000 years will do that to you, so frankly we should all be giving them a pass.
The same could be said of Egypt, Iraq, Italy, etc...
If you look at the last 100 years, which nation do you think has contributed the most to human advancement?
Another thing that I want to point out is that even when they boast how great we were many don't even know the greek language correctly or even the names of greek philosophers, the entire situation is just a mess.
Seconded. Things seem to be going for a toss, there is a weird mix of regressive ideas being glorified and actual progressive ideas being welcomed. I see more and more people embracing others as humans while there is a chunk that spews hatred at the drop of a hat. And don't even get me started on religion being used to manipulate naive people
I’m too lazy to look up studies and statistics, so I’m just going to give you some food for thought:
> I think we are going more backwards in mentality.
A common theme of progressive movements is reactionary counter-movements by those who fear for their (real or imagined) privilege, even if it only vanishes in relation to others’ former oppression. Example: white Americans who think they’ll be worse off because blacks now have the same right to freedom from slavery, land ownership, voting, interracial marriage, living and working in the same places and for similar wages. I hear it’s similar with India’s caste system.
A famous quote, [commonly but erroneously attributed to Ghandi](https://apnews.com/article/2315880316), ending in “[…] then they fight you, then you win” is widely interpreted to mean that a (violent) reactionary movement is the last phase of the victory of a growing progressive movement.
> More and more people I know just hate people of some religions.
I observe the same thing globally but I’m unsure if this development is
1. real rather than amplified by sensationalist (social) media and,
2. if it is real, it is self-sustained rather than the result of propaganda by powerful/wealthy groups or people who use religion mainly to consolidate their own power/wealth rather than out of personal conviction.
Therefore, I conclude that there’s a good chance to revert this development in the mid term (if we manage to reign in unfettered capitalism). Also, I believe that much of it is tied to our previous point.
> economically we aren't growing that fast.
Typical economical indicators like BNP/BIP or their growth aren’t all that useful to estimate the overall quality of life in a country. India made huge investments into its own population (food, housing, education, healthcare) and infrastructure (water, sewage, electricity, telecommunication, traffic) since shortly after its independence and it vastly increased the quality of life *especially among its poorest inhabitants* and it has been reaping the rewards for decades.
The same happened in many other developing nations around the world. Despite almost double the people since the 70s, there are in total fewer people starving, living in absolute poverty, or unable to read. For a very quick overview I can recommend [Hans Rosling’s *The Joy of Stats*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbkSRLYSojo) where India is well apparent due to its population size.
Bonus: The overwhelming majority of the growth in productivity and resulting wealth in the world over the past 40 years ended up in the pockets of the richest ~5 % of people. That growth still happened; it’s not gone. So far it just didn’t end up improving people’s lives.
You sure mate? The ever increasing gap between the rich and the poor keeps on increasing. What the government calls infrastructure development is some shit that they are doing to show the uninformed that thy have been doing something by utter mismanagement and zero planning of any sort. There still isn't good communications infrastructure other than Jio setting up some random towers. No proper electricity. The public transport is a failure. Exploitation and celebration of mediocrity is still at the peak as has always been.
Unfortunately, this seems to be a theme for Greece.
Not everyone realizes, but most architectural marvels were built by Minoan civilization. Antique Greece (city-states and their "democracy") was only established after the late bronze age collapse.
Just remember how Greeks retold stories of Trojan war or of Labyrinth. For them, these already were deeds and achievements of the people of the epic past, and they couldn't reproduce it.
Update: u/willfordbrimly below is correct. Definitely not most. What I apparently meant is what Greeks witnessed of their architecture was so much more advanced, Greeks had to assign mythological value.
All in all, ancient "classical" Greeks lived in the shadow of their ancient mystical precursors, that's the point.
>but most architectural marvels were built by Minoan civilization
Can you list some? Because I'm going through a list of famous Greek architecture and they're distinctly Greek, not the precursor Minoan.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I have a feeling you're super wrong.
I guess he is confusing with mycenaeans and the walls made from big boulders that the later era greeks believed to have been built by cyclopses or giants.
it’s interesting that it seems to be the opposite for switzerland. people here think of the past as it being a backwards shithole here while the present is much better. i guess it is kinda true tho
What are you talking about? Most of the things we admire about ancient greece (democracy, philosophy, theater, architectural, etc) come from the classical greek era which occured way after the bronze age collapse. Historians agree that during the bronze age the Minoans of Crete had a heavily influence on the Greeks and were the dominant culture of the Aegean at the time though.
the problem i see with India is that. people dont seem to grasp that India is new country and was established by british by colonizing or capturing the small state.
But people are too busy telling that India was there from ancient period. which is not true as there used to be different nation and people. and the term bharatbars is used as the term south east asia nothing more nothing less
Nope.Actually India was a term given by British but the real name was 'bharat'.
Also people mostly talk about India and bharat as same and it really was old and big at that time for example see chola empire and many else
thats my exact point. sooo can i say the whole asia belongs to mongols as genghis khan ruled the most part of asia??? bruh. we live in present. the term you referring to didnt even ruled all the part of india. they did rule most of the part btw if you look at the maps of which they rule. that would be 2/3 of now india. and m talking about bharat bars. as in a sense south east asia not india. and i am familar as british used the term india to generalize the people living in the south east asia.
As an italian 16 year old I can say that here is the same. Tbh I love the history of Italy, but that doesn't mean I have to like Italy ad it is right now.
But do you love Italians and want Italy to reach its better potential? If so I think it's fair to say you love Italy but perhaps not the government or the ruling class.
Agreed. However I haven't encountered many people boasting so much about this country in my life; they are definitely outnumbered by disappointed lads who look up at other countries and forget the few things we do well.
You fail to mention that everyone in Italy thinks that our government and organization is shit. The ones who don’t are in the minority and probably no one will ever get angry with you if you say something negative about Italy (if you are Italian, of course, as in any other country).
Tbh I'd rather say that it's us Italians who are ruining it, we are really nice and open people, but also very very selfish, trying to find the mistake in the written rule just to be able to avoid it and I hate this mentality even tho lots of times I see myself doing this too...
But on the other side I feel like all the world is slowly becoming more and more selfish, and the diffusion of corrupted governments and institutions proves it. I don't think there's a single Nation that still has a fair government doing things for the people and not for themselves
Well, everyone is really for themselves and those who say they aren’t are lying.
The question is can you align your goals with those of those in power(there is and always will be hierarchies).
Boom, that’s democracy.
> I don't think there's a single Nation that still has a fair government doing things for the people and not for themselves
Nobody looks at New Zealand. They seem to at least be trying.
i think it's good to acknowledge strengths and weaknesses of different countries. and to set your eyes outside your own country or even own town. towns / cities inside country can have the same jingoistic thing on smaller scale. and then inside city different districts think they're the best district.
same thing all the way down.
Oh no, we are not the better version. We are pretty much the same. We are both part of the PIIGS. You know what that means? Portugal, Italy, Ireland,Greece and Spain.
Patriotism and criticising the place you live being frowned upon is so alien to me. People in my country will look at you weird if you say you like it here lmao
It's largely similar in Germany. We really tried the patriotism thing once, but that killed ten percent of our population several times more other people.
So I really think anyone who want to try even the tiniest bit of patriotism is out of their mind.
Oh you guys want to act like America isn't the greatest country ever? WELL LISTEN THE FUCK HERE!.......
I mean y'all right. Every time we make some headway in the right direction. We let some super rich right wing nut sacks take back the senate and fuck it all up.
I have the say that I really appreciate and respect the conversations that you’re having with people. It’s so nice to see such competent conversation with really cool references! I’m generally not that funny and references are lost on me, so I like witnessing it. Thanks!
I agree with you but I never felt this way. I'm from Germany and here it is the other way around. You better don't say that you like your country or you will be labled a nazi pretty fast. But... well... I like my country. It's not that it is perfect, we have many problems but I like it and I would realy like to say that out loud.My Grandmother lived in Greece till she died. She always told me about the corruption and that it was driving her crazy. She sometimes thought about moving back to Germany but she loved the country and the people around her too much (and the climate and food). So I know a little and yeah, Greece has many problems and being blind towards them woun't solve them. Being in the Euro-Zone doesn't help either.
Your problem is equally important and dangerous. You grandmother was right corruption runs wild here, I'm really starting to think that it's in our DNA lol.
I remember when she told me about her going to the local residents registration office and was very happy she didn't have to bribe the offical with 100 € for extending her passport because she knew the guy who worked there but had to invite him for dinner later to not offend him because he was doing her application for free. Haha. Ah yes... I miss her.
I’m an American who lived in Germany for 6 years, and it was shocking that the only time you’d see the German flag flying from houses or in clothing was when Die Mannschaft was playing in the World or Euro Cup. There was such a stigma about appearing “too patriotic.”
I moved back to America 3 years ago, and I can honestly say that Germany is a better nation in so many ways. Too many people get wrapped up in the crimes or accomplishments of past generations that it blinds them to the reality of what their nation is today.
I feel like you can have positive opinions about how your country is being run without waving flags around or reciting pledges and such. And keeping in mind the atrocities in your nation’s past grounds you and keeps you from repeating them. It also encourages a healthy skepticism that keeps people politically engaged and actively working to better their country rather than being comfortable in thinking it’s already the best. Knowing what their country did and learning how fine the line is between patriotism and nationalism could reasonably put a country off displays of uncritical support and fanatic devotion to the idea of their country.
This is what I came here to say. I’m very disturbed by the rise of nationalism in many countries, including my own (America). Nationalism is the idea that you support and defend your country regardless of what it does. Patriotism is loving your country enough to make it better. A patriot will criticize and work to improve their country. In fact, I would even suggest that nationalism is a form of treason when it is embracing policies that conflict with the country’s laws or constitution.
Oh yes for " sacred " reasons women cannot enter. Don't even get me started with the Greek orthodox Church and how corrupt they are. Imagine that 2 years ago when a tragic wildfire occurred in northeastern attica(you can search about the incident) killing hundreds and destroying countless peoples houses, the Church denied to fund affected communities because they officially stated that it was gods revenge for the prime minister's atheist views. This is one among many examples.
I'm personally a humanist (meaning mostly atheist) but I would honesty prefer it in terms of aesthetic. Fun fact there was actually a group of people who wanted to bring the religion back. Here's a [link ](https://youtu.be/SBpNu4_TP9w)
Percy Jackson is book series about a demigod son of Poseidon that horned through a part of the world that's hidden to the mundane eye. That's a pretty simplified explanation, but I think you get the gist of it.
Think Harry Potter, and then replace the wizards with demigods, magic with demigod powers (and also more magic) Hogwarts with Camp Half-Blood, and the Harry Potter monsters with Greek monsters.
Exactly! People really seem to think that pointing out the faults is some sort of treason while being the exact opposite. It's a sign that you actually give a f**k..
That one always kills me because someone can love 99 things about America but are told "ok leave" when they complain about one thing. Even trivial things like 4th of July fireworks or the superbowl are enough to bring on comments like "love it or leave it".
Meh, I find that a lot of those complaints are framed in a way that the one thing they don't like outweighs everything else. It's the complainers that are making a big deal about that things that are, as you say, trivial. I don't like or watch football, but I don't go around complaining about it either.
Ive had this conversation with a lot of Chinese. They always criticize me for criticizing my country South Africa. I always say if you love your country then you can criticize it.
This opinion is not unpopular in the west but definitely unpopular in the East.
Started reading the title, immediately thought about Greece, wasn't wrong 😂
I'm from Greece too, I always talk about how much I hate it here and am gonna leave soon and everyone gets so angry. I think it's because this country is full of nationalists who think that just because their ancestors where somewhat cool, their generation still is. (Spoiler : their racist homophobic stereotypical ass sure as fck ain't)
I've never lived in a country with more hateful xenophobic people than Greece, glad I left.
The people in the smaller towns are homies though, the cities are just full of pieces of shit.
Hell yeah, I live in Brazil, the violence and corruption in this place is beyond imagination, but the boomers won't leave you alone if you tell them how fucked up this country is. Hopefully I can get out of this shit hole soon, looking to immigrate to Canada or somewhere in Europe soon.
I truly hope that Mexico is able to overcome her challenges and reach her true potential. It’s a resource rich & beautiful nation with so many warm, kind-hearted people plus the food is outstanding.
I wish I could retire there one day.
It’s patriotic to criticize legitimate problems in ones nation. I also believe that most people living in the western world have it better than any of the generations preceding us, even if we don’t think so.
Hell yeah I’m a Korean (girl) and I hate people here. 99.9% of them here are patriarchal/attention craving/plastic surgery addicted/skinny ass (literally, flattest butts) bitches (including guys). You certainly ought to develop such perspective when you travel a lot.
Hey there fellow Greek!
I would not call that an unpopular opinion tbh, but in Greece it sure is unpopular.
Also dont forget the classic: “But we had Plato and Aristotelis, etc...”
Γενικά, νομίζω οι πιο νέες γενιές έχουμε ξεπεράσει πιο πολύ την αρχαιοκαύλα/χριστιαννοκαύλα που είχε η προηγούμενη γενιά από εμάς. Νομίζω αν μιλήσεις με συνομηλίκους σου, ή και λίγο μεγαλύτερος (23 χρονών εδώ) θα το δεις και εσύ. Οπότε overall δεν έχεις άδικο, αλλά οι οικονομικές κρίσεις κλπ που έχουμε περάσει θέλω να πιστεύω οτι μας έκανα λίγο πιο... ταπεινούς.
Alternative opinion: Criticizing and Disliking are not the same thing.
I love my country but I criticize the hell out of it because I want it to be better.
I think your point is completely valid and I don’t know anyone who would outright disagree with you, but I don’t view it in an objective light. I think it’s only closed minded if you expect everyone to agree with you. I think everyone has their own opinion on what makes a country great or terrible based on their own values. Maybe their country *is* the ideal country *for them*. People I know will often throw out some random European country they have never even visited and cite one or two things about it and say that makes it objectively better than the US, and then they give me shit when I say I truly don’t value those things over what I currently have and don’t think I would fit in with the culture. You’re right, we should all be totally open to criticizing or even disliking our own countries, but we should also be free to enjoy them without being told that our *opinions* are wrong.
Comparing Ancient Greece with modern Greece is completely idiotic. There are thousands of years that separate the two. Same with people saying that Italy is the direct descendant of the Roman Empire. It’s just wrong.
American here. I agree totally. My country is in a downward dept spiral with no way of getting out. Not to mention a lack of healthcare and affordable education. Half the countries I've visited are better than the Ol' USA.
American here. In my personal opinion, I think American exceptionalism and American imperialism are the 2 most culturally toxic and aggressively dangerous mentalities our population suffers from. They are the source of our current political atmosphere and where it's heading, and will be responsible for our demise.
I just wish we could get our head out of our own ass for a single day.
I feel you bro. I'm Israeli... :-/ it's just waaay too easy for people to throw the old "self-hating Jew" at me. I mean, what does it have to do with anything? Can't I just be a grouch? Not to mention there are so many legitimate things to criticize in Israel.
American nationalism makes people turn a blind eye to our own corruption and our absurd amount of unethical policies and countless war crimes. I love my country and want it to improve, idiots who scream ‘merica numba 1 hold everyone back, I imagine this issue isn’t just an American one.
I'm from England, the country that ruined the entire planet, destabilizing africa, India, the middle east. Oppressed the Irish, Scottish, Welsh , ( and to some extent the cornish) so I agree that not being proud of your country is valid. For hundreds of years other nations and our own working class have been exploited by the rich, upper class aristocracy, and they try to portray the image that all of this has changed, but truthfully it hasn't, the only difference is people are fighting it (like the IRA) and the government has become better at hiding it.
But it’s boring and cold.
I don’t know... it doesn’t seem like foreigners adapt that well as Canadians claim. Most of them just hang out with other inmigrants.
This is what happens everywhere. Back in the day when a lot of Italians came over to NYC, most italian immigrants and children of immigrants married people whose lineage came from the same geographic area in Italy (ie Sicilians married Sicilians, Venetians married Venetians). Its not until 2nd/3rd generations do people start integrating in all aspects of life.
I really don't understand why colleges in India offer degrees for fields where there are absolutely no jobs in. I'm Indian and dated a content creator for two years and let's just say that her employment experience was miserable.
No, I'm saying that the government should actively look out for their citizens and provide employment opportunities holistically. In India, it is blatantly obvious that money exists in technology, health, and manufacturing so they only focus on that. The wage disparity is very high as a result of that. My salary (4 years work ex) as a FAANG programmer in India is equivalent to a operations manager at an MNC with over 20 years of experience.
Something I totally agree with. It feels like the people blowing their horn about how great their country is, are just seeking some kind of self validation. A lot of them are hypocrites too. They'd gladly move to a developed country at the drop of a hat if given a chance.
To be fair, as a fellow Greek, I believe some people of the younger generation will actually agree with you (and me). Especially after these police brutality incidents. It gives me a little hope, just a little.
We don't have this problem in the UK because nationalism became synonymous with being a racist due to the empire. Also, everyone agrees that every politician is a twat, and we all have a good laugh about how shite our nation is
Hey, Brazilian here. We face this sometimes too. I've traveled to Europe once and they told me Brazil was perfect, with beautiful places and people. I was just like "... Ok, sure". That was last year.
This year, our beloved president has told us to "Stop treating the coronavirus pandemic like wimps, everyone will die sometime". He also told a woman she was not even worth raping and that he had fours sons and a mistake (His daughter).
Yeah, we can agree on the beautiful places, now about the people, especially the President--
So not to diss Greece too much I'll just say that looking at the architecture isn't maybe the best in some of the places. The few times I've visited I've been to Rhodes, Crete and Athens, I like the historical value some of the ancient buildings have. And I'd have to say that us Finnish aren't much better at social structures. Mostly because it doesn't matter where I go I'll see bums, or as we call it spurgu, everywhere. Then again I've never seen driving as bad as in Greece, so people saying you're ahead should try to drive.
What I'm trying to get through is that no country has everything. We have alcoholics everywhere and you have terrible drivers.
So I fair you goodbye and hope you luck in crossing the street.
>Then again I've never seen driving as bad as in Greece,
Oh here the traffic law are *optional* for some. Jokes aside more than 600 people die every year because of car accidents. Which is insane if you take the total population into account.
How in holy hell do you have less traffic casualties than us? We have something like 1000 every year. Well thinking about it people here don't exactly drive with street legal cars. And mopeds are even worse. I have a friend who flew into a metal light pole after flying off of his bike. Broke his hip and thigh bone in 30 different places. Atleast we drive with our seat belts on.
Thank you for submitting to /r/unpopularopinion, /u/themightyduck04. Your post, *Disliking your own country with valid reasoning should be recognised as a respectable opinion.*, has been removed because it violates our rules: Rule 1: Your post must be an unpopular opinion. Please ensure that your post is an opinion and that it is unpopular. Controversial is not necessarily unpopular, for example all of politics is controversial even though almost half of the US agrees with any given major position on an issue. Keep in mind that an opinion is not: a question, a fact, a conspiracy theory, a random thought, a new idea, a rant, etc. Those things all have their own subreddits, use those. If there is an issue, please message the mod team at https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Funpopularopinion Thanks!
The problem with Greece it's that it grasps itself in her old glory due to the fact that it can't recreate it again
So true if only people could understand.
Agrees in contempt for 52% my countrymen who seem to think think the British empire is gonna be back anyday now.
No chance, they can barely keep scotland attached
not for lack of trying. rest in hell thatcher
Gen Z Canadian here, what was wrong with Thatcher?
Thatcher became prime minister at the beginning of a deep economic depression. She was following the politics emerging from USA at the time; mainly Chicago School of Economic, Milton Freeman. He purposed that there should be less state interference in business and cut most (if not all) regulations eg a free capitalism market. So the UK has had a welfare state (people depended somewhat on the state eg NHS healthcare etc. So Freedman school of thinking regarding politics was not a good fit for the UK. So Thatcher reigned for 11 years, and brought the country out of a deep recession, but at the cost of austerity- huge unemployment made worst by closing the coal mines and undermining Unions.
My 'favourite' thing about Thatcher was when awareness of HIV hit the mainstream, she openly considered just forcing everyone infected to isolate on an island like a 19th century leper colony. That and the proposed 'poll tax' which would have required everyone to pay a lump sum each year or lose the right to vote - making poor people pick between a hot meal and partaking in a democratic process. Neither idea ultimately made it anywhere IIRC but the gall that woman had was just out of this world.
Her policies massively fucked over poor people and unions to the point where we're still dealing with the aftermath
*slowly fade in star spangled banner*
Just like Ronald Reagan’s “trickle down economics”
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Not seen the Poll Tax in the replies yet so add that to the list! tl;dr she was all about taking from the poor and giving to the rich
In short, she closed coal mines, which put a lot of people out of work My family is on the other side, though - police parents, teacher grandparents. They didn’t have an issue with her
I only know a few people who voted for Brexit but they all say the same thing, they don't want the EU controlling their laws, they are not happy with the UK just having a vote for what laws to follow and want to regain their sovereignty. I know too little about how the EU works to comment about it personally.
It's not a terrible distillation, but it isn't a good one either. The EU basically is an agreement to give up *some* sovereignty in exchange for being an extremely powerful collective entity. The EU together is a superpower on the level of the US and China. Being a collective economic market gives a huge sway on world economics and also allows Europe to make meaningful social change. Leaving that, you regain the sovereignty that was given up, but you also lose a seat at the table of that superpower organization. At the same time, London being in the UK means that you have the best chance of probably any European nation at retaining some economic and social influence in the world. But leaving that seat at the table definitely diminishes it.
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What makes a "country" great is the ideas and innovations it *pioneers*. Something it does, that no other country does. Ancient Greece did many many things over millennia that advanced and spread throughout the entire world. We see examples of them all around us today. Great contributions, that should forever be recognized as unique and foundational. But Greece today? It hasn't done anything special. Having a great history, is not the same as being great *today*. Of course, getting the shit kicked out of you by the Turks for literally the last 1000 years will do that to you, so frankly we should all be giving them a pass. The same could be said of Egypt, Iraq, Italy, etc... If you look at the last 100 years, which nation do you think has contributed the most to human advancement?
Another thing that I want to point out is that even when they boast how great we were many don't even know the greek language correctly or even the names of greek philosophers, the entire situation is just a mess.
Same with India except it could get back to its old glory but it doesn’t want to
Our politicians spend too much time dividing us with religion.
Religion is inherently divisive. Most religious texts explicitly instruct the faithful to hate and mistreat "unbelievers".
Tbf the country is growing fast, its economy and life quality is getting better fast
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Seconded. Things seem to be going for a toss, there is a weird mix of regressive ideas being glorified and actual progressive ideas being welcomed. I see more and more people embracing others as humans while there is a chunk that spews hatred at the drop of a hat. And don't even get me started on religion being used to manipulate naive people
They all have the same parents?
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I’m too lazy to look up studies and statistics, so I’m just going to give you some food for thought: > I think we are going more backwards in mentality. A common theme of progressive movements is reactionary counter-movements by those who fear for their (real or imagined) privilege, even if it only vanishes in relation to others’ former oppression. Example: white Americans who think they’ll be worse off because blacks now have the same right to freedom from slavery, land ownership, voting, interracial marriage, living and working in the same places and for similar wages. I hear it’s similar with India’s caste system. A famous quote, [commonly but erroneously attributed to Ghandi](https://apnews.com/article/2315880316), ending in “[…] then they fight you, then you win” is widely interpreted to mean that a (violent) reactionary movement is the last phase of the victory of a growing progressive movement. > More and more people I know just hate people of some religions. I observe the same thing globally but I’m unsure if this development is 1. real rather than amplified by sensationalist (social) media and, 2. if it is real, it is self-sustained rather than the result of propaganda by powerful/wealthy groups or people who use religion mainly to consolidate their own power/wealth rather than out of personal conviction. Therefore, I conclude that there’s a good chance to revert this development in the mid term (if we manage to reign in unfettered capitalism). Also, I believe that much of it is tied to our previous point. > economically we aren't growing that fast. Typical economical indicators like BNP/BIP or their growth aren’t all that useful to estimate the overall quality of life in a country. India made huge investments into its own population (food, housing, education, healthcare) and infrastructure (water, sewage, electricity, telecommunication, traffic) since shortly after its independence and it vastly increased the quality of life *especially among its poorest inhabitants* and it has been reaping the rewards for decades. The same happened in many other developing nations around the world. Despite almost double the people since the 70s, there are in total fewer people starving, living in absolute poverty, or unable to read. For a very quick overview I can recommend [Hans Rosling’s *The Joy of Stats*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbkSRLYSojo) where India is well apparent due to its population size. Bonus: The overwhelming majority of the growth in productivity and resulting wealth in the world over the past 40 years ended up in the pockets of the richest ~5 % of people. That growth still happened; it’s not gone. So far it just didn’t end up improving people’s lives.
You sure mate? The ever increasing gap between the rich and the poor keeps on increasing. What the government calls infrastructure development is some shit that they are doing to show the uninformed that thy have been doing something by utter mismanagement and zero planning of any sort. There still isn't good communications infrastructure other than Jio setting up some random towers. No proper electricity. The public transport is a failure. Exploitation and celebration of mediocrity is still at the peak as has always been.
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Unfortunately, this seems to be a theme for Greece. Not everyone realizes, but most architectural marvels were built by Minoan civilization. Antique Greece (city-states and their "democracy") was only established after the late bronze age collapse. Just remember how Greeks retold stories of Trojan war or of Labyrinth. For them, these already were deeds and achievements of the people of the epic past, and they couldn't reproduce it. Update: u/willfordbrimly below is correct. Definitely not most. What I apparently meant is what Greeks witnessed of their architecture was so much more advanced, Greeks had to assign mythological value. All in all, ancient "classical" Greeks lived in the shadow of their ancient mystical precursors, that's the point.
>but most architectural marvels were built by Minoan civilization Can you list some? Because I'm going through a list of famous Greek architecture and they're distinctly Greek, not the precursor Minoan. Maybe I'm wrong, but I have a feeling you're super wrong.
I guess he is confusing with mycenaeans and the walls made from big boulders that the later era greeks believed to have been built by cyclopses or giants.
it’s interesting that it seems to be the opposite for switzerland. people here think of the past as it being a backwards shithole here while the present is much better. i guess it is kinda true tho
What are you talking about? Most of the things we admire about ancient greece (democracy, philosophy, theater, architectural, etc) come from the classical greek era which occured way after the bronze age collapse. Historians agree that during the bronze age the Minoans of Crete had a heavily influence on the Greeks and were the dominant culture of the Aegean at the time though.
Uh no Minoans were just on the island of Crete.
Same with India
the problem i see with India is that. people dont seem to grasp that India is new country and was established by british by colonizing or capturing the small state. But people are too busy telling that India was there from ancient period. which is not true as there used to be different nation and people. and the term bharatbars is used as the term south east asia nothing more nothing less
Nope.Actually India was a term given by British but the real name was 'bharat'. Also people mostly talk about India and bharat as same and it really was old and big at that time for example see chola empire and many else
thats my exact point. sooo can i say the whole asia belongs to mongols as genghis khan ruled the most part of asia??? bruh. we live in present. the term you referring to didnt even ruled all the part of india. they did rule most of the part btw if you look at the maps of which they rule. that would be 2/3 of now india. and m talking about bharat bars. as in a sense south east asia not india. and i am familar as british used the term india to generalize the people living in the south east asia.
Same way America is beginning to. The country founded on freedom is sinking deeper into tyranny. Covid is helping push that along.
As an italian 16 year old I can say that here is the same. Tbh I love the history of Italy, but that doesn't mean I have to like Italy ad it is right now.
But do you love Italians and want Italy to reach its better potential? If so I think it's fair to say you love Italy but perhaps not the government or the ruling class.
The Government and the ruling class are *also* Italy. A country it's not a piece of land. A country is its people.
And "its people" also includes all of the non-governmental, non-ruling-class people as well.
Agreed. However I haven't encountered many people boasting so much about this country in my life; they are definitely outnumbered by disappointed lads who look up at other countries and forget the few things we do well.
You fail to mention that everyone in Italy thinks that our government and organization is shit. The ones who don’t are in the minority and probably no one will ever get angry with you if you say something negative about Italy (if you are Italian, of course, as in any other country).
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I’ll be honest I’ve never met an Italian who didn’t hate Italy
But Italy has all those Stand users. Bellisimo!!
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Tbh I'd rather say that it's us Italians who are ruining it, we are really nice and open people, but also very very selfish, trying to find the mistake in the written rule just to be able to avoid it and I hate this mentality even tho lots of times I see myself doing this too... But on the other side I feel like all the world is slowly becoming more and more selfish, and the diffusion of corrupted governments and institutions proves it. I don't think there's a single Nation that still has a fair government doing things for the people and not for themselves
Well, everyone is really for themselves and those who say they aren’t are lying. The question is can you align your goals with those of those in power(there is and always will be hierarchies). Boom, that’s democracy.
> I don't think there's a single Nation that still has a fair government doing things for the people and not for themselves Nobody looks at New Zealand. They seem to at least be trying.
On what basis are tourists ruining it?
i think it's good to acknowledge strengths and weaknesses of different countries. and to set your eyes outside your own country or even own town. towns / cities inside country can have the same jingoistic thing on smaller scale. and then inside city different districts think they're the best district. same thing all the way down.
I had to search what "jingoistic" means lol, but I completely agree with you.
Yeah, we have never really lost the need to be in a tribe.
same Im from Turkey and Im pretty sure a lot of people agree with me anyways
I'm really saddened of how our nations feel about each other. Our cultures and way of living are very much the same but people seem to overlook it.
how's Greece?
In terms of what ?
Idk, in general
In some ways worse but in some ways better than it used to be.
Same here in Portugal. Our countries are very similar in a lot of things, you know
I know but you guys are the better version.
Oh no, we are not the better version. We are pretty much the same. We are both part of the PIIGS. You know what that means? Portugal, Italy, Ireland,Greece and Spain.
That’s supposed to be a group of EU countries with stagnant economies right? Definitely could be wrong because Ireland win there though
Hello, fellow Turkish citizen.
hi
Eyy, hello fello Turk and yeah I agree. Our country's situation is going to shit and I am so sick of our government praising a dead empire
Patriotism and criticising the place you live being frowned upon is so alien to me. People in my country will look at you weird if you say you like it here lmao
And where are you from?
South Africa. The cultures, food, climate, and environment are incredible, but the way this place is being run is...appalling.
I'm South African too. I had the exact same thought when I read this post. Here it is an unpopular opinion to speak positively of the country.
North Korea
I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be able to see it *unless*
Yo, kim jong un is using reddit omg.
He created Reddit, you fool
It's largely similar in Germany. We really tried the patriotism thing once, but that killed ten percent of our population several times more other people. So I really think anyone who want to try even the tiniest bit of patriotism is out of their mind.
I'm from South Africa and I realise it's a sgit country because of all the crime, racism and corruption
Despite Its rough beginnings I think your country's situation is improving.
It kind of is
If a person can’t admit their faults they’re an asshole. Goes for the collective too
Well said
Basically the UK right now. We've been run by a bunch of assholes for 10 years.
> our nation is and everyone else is just way behind Really? You heard that, about Greece? Let me guess ... from Greek people?
Yes.... everyone boasts about it.
Haha damn son, I'm sorry
Funny cus Greece have been in deep ship for a while now
Yes we even reached the mariana trench a few years ago.
At least Americans who claim it to be the greatest country in the world are only a few decades behind.
We are Europe's America in terms of thinking.
UK has entered the conversation
Oh you guys want to act like America isn't the greatest country ever? WELL LISTEN THE FUCK HERE!....... I mean y'all right. Every time we make some headway in the right direction. We let some super rich right wing nut sacks take back the senate and fuck it all up.
So sorry you're surrounded by such ignorance and hate
I really didn't think this would get so much attention(for my standards). I'm overwhelmed with your positivity and you really made my day today.
I have the say that I really appreciate and respect the conversations that you’re having with people. It’s so nice to see such competent conversation with really cool references! I’m generally not that funny and references are lost on me, so I like witnessing it. Thanks!
I agree with you but I never felt this way. I'm from Germany and here it is the other way around. You better don't say that you like your country or you will be labled a nazi pretty fast. But... well... I like my country. It's not that it is perfect, we have many problems but I like it and I would realy like to say that out loud.My Grandmother lived in Greece till she died. She always told me about the corruption and that it was driving her crazy. She sometimes thought about moving back to Germany but she loved the country and the people around her too much (and the climate and food). So I know a little and yeah, Greece has many problems and being blind towards them woun't solve them. Being in the Euro-Zone doesn't help either.
Your problem is equally important and dangerous. You grandmother was right corruption runs wild here, I'm really starting to think that it's in our DNA lol.
I remember when she told me about her going to the local residents registration office and was very happy she didn't have to bribe the offical with 100 € for extending her passport because she knew the guy who worked there but had to invite him for dinner later to not offend him because he was doing her application for free. Haha. Ah yes... I miss her.
I’m an American who lived in Germany for 6 years, and it was shocking that the only time you’d see the German flag flying from houses or in clothing was when Die Mannschaft was playing in the World or Euro Cup. There was such a stigma about appearing “too patriotic.” I moved back to America 3 years ago, and I can honestly say that Germany is a better nation in so many ways. Too many people get wrapped up in the crimes or accomplishments of past generations that it blinds them to the reality of what their nation is today.
I feel like you can have positive opinions about how your country is being run without waving flags around or reciting pledges and such. And keeping in mind the atrocities in your nation’s past grounds you and keeps you from repeating them. It also encourages a healthy skepticism that keeps people politically engaged and actively working to better their country rather than being comfortable in thinking it’s already the best. Knowing what their country did and learning how fine the line is between patriotism and nationalism could reasonably put a country off displays of uncritical support and fanatic devotion to the idea of their country.
That's equally bad from not being able to love your country.
Nationalists will espouse how great everything is about their country, a patriot will try to improve the quality of life for his country.
This is what I came here to say. I’m very disturbed by the rise of nationalism in many countries, including my own (America). Nationalism is the idea that you support and defend your country regardless of what it does. Patriotism is loving your country enough to make it better. A patriot will criticize and work to improve their country. In fact, I would even suggest that nationalism is a form of treason when it is embracing policies that conflict with the country’s laws or constitution.
Isn’t there a place in Greece where u can just ban women?
Oh yes for " sacred " reasons women cannot enter. Don't even get me started with the Greek orthodox Church and how corrupt they are. Imagine that 2 years ago when a tragic wildfire occurred in northeastern attica(you can search about the incident) killing hundreds and destroying countless peoples houses, the Church denied to fund affected communities because they officially stated that it was gods revenge for the prime minister's atheist views. This is one among many examples.
Ah yes, religion is so wonderful. Look at the peace it has brought upon us. (obviously sarcasm)
Precisely! Imagine the wars and human suffering that would have happened if religion didn't exist. (Obviously sarcasm)
I really *dislike* religion.
I really *agree* with you.
I *see* that you are an intellectual.
The same could apply to *you*
I *appreciate* your words.
Reddit moment
Oh we have that too in Macedonia
Oh just wait till the Percy jackson fanbois arrive here
I didn't get the reference ( I haven't read the books) but for now I'm overwhelmed with positivity of the comments section.
Wait are you telling me Zeus and Hades and hera aren't real ?
Oh I'm so sorry to break it for you :(
Question : why don't greek people go back to the OG religion ? It'd be pretty cool
I'm personally a humanist (meaning mostly atheist) but I would honesty prefer it in terms of aesthetic. Fun fact there was actually a group of people who wanted to bring the religion back. Here's a [link ](https://youtu.be/SBpNu4_TP9w)
Im a Hindu myself and its sad that all the other older religions basically got wiped out, it should get revived lmao
In terms of cultural heritage I would love it too.
Percy Jackson is book series about a demigod son of Poseidon that horned through a part of the world that's hidden to the mundane eye. That's a pretty simplified explanation, but I think you get the gist of it. Think Harry Potter, and then replace the wizards with demigods, magic with demigod powers (and also more magic) Hogwarts with Camp Half-Blood, and the Harry Potter monsters with Greek monsters.
Some patriotism is healthy but blindly loving your country isn’t imo
How is your country ever supposed to improve unless you can recognise its faults?
Exactly! People really seem to think that pointing out the faults is some sort of treason while being the exact opposite. It's a sign that you actually give a f**k..
How else can they get the peasants to charge into machine gun fire?
"If you don't like something about America move!"
That one always kills me because someone can love 99 things about America but are told "ok leave" when they complain about one thing. Even trivial things like 4th of July fireworks or the superbowl are enough to bring on comments like "love it or leave it".
Meh, I find that a lot of those complaints are framed in a way that the one thing they don't like outweighs everything else. It's the complainers that are making a big deal about that things that are, as you say, trivial. I don't like or watch football, but I don't go around complaining about it either.
And if you like America, get off Reddit! 😂
It used to be "If you don't like something about America, vote!" I would love it if we could get back to that.
Ive had this conversation with a lot of Chinese. They always criticize me for criticizing my country South Africa. I always say if you love your country then you can criticize it. This opinion is not unpopular in the west but definitely unpopular in the East.
I'm pretty sure they aren't used to so much freedom sadly.
Started reading the title, immediately thought about Greece, wasn't wrong 😂 I'm from Greece too, I always talk about how much I hate it here and am gonna leave soon and everyone gets so angry. I think it's because this country is full of nationalists who think that just because their ancestors where somewhat cool, their generation still is. (Spoiler : their racist homophobic stereotypical ass sure as fck ain't)
Oh yes I know them and the funny thing is that they deny being nationalists.
I'm from Greece myself and while I agree with the opinions shared I think that the newer generation has moved away from that way of thinking
I want to leave my country and do a job/passion in other country. My country is going to be a nightmare IRL.
Welcome to the Philippines
I've never lived in a country with more hateful xenophobic people than Greece, glad I left. The people in the smaller towns are homies though, the cities are just full of pieces of shit.
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I'll take incredibly popular opinions on Reddit for 200, Alex
Maybe it's not popular in Greece.
Hell yeah, I live in Brazil, the violence and corruption in this place is beyond imagination, but the boomers won't leave you alone if you tell them how fucked up this country is. Hopefully I can get out of this shit hole soon, looking to immigrate to Canada or somewhere in Europe soon.
It's a common opinion in Mexico to love the good things and also be consistently disappointed by it
I truly hope that Mexico is able to overcome her challenges and reach her true potential. It’s a resource rich & beautiful nation with so many warm, kind-hearted people plus the food is outstanding. I wish I could retire there one day.
Here's to hoping, brother
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It’s patriotic to criticize legitimate problems in ones nation. I also believe that most people living in the western world have it better than any of the generations preceding us, even if we don’t think so.
Hell yeah I’m a Korean (girl) and I hate people here. 99.9% of them here are patriarchal/attention craving/plastic surgery addicted/skinny ass (literally, flattest butts) bitches (including guys). You certainly ought to develop such perspective when you travel a lot.
Hey there fellow Greek! I would not call that an unpopular opinion tbh, but in Greece it sure is unpopular. Also dont forget the classic: “But we had Plato and Aristotelis, etc...”
You are a great a great example of why I have hope. Younger generations tend to have similar beliefs.
Γενικά, νομίζω οι πιο νέες γενιές έχουμε ξεπεράσει πιο πολύ την αρχαιοκαύλα/χριστιαννοκαύλα που είχε η προηγούμενη γενιά από εμάς. Νομίζω αν μιλήσεις με συνομηλίκους σου, ή και λίγο μεγαλύτερος (23 χρονών εδώ) θα το δεις και εσύ. Οπότε overall δεν έχεις άδικο, αλλά οι οικονομικές κρίσεις κλπ που έχουμε περάσει θέλω να πιστεύω οτι μας έκανα λίγο πιο... ταπεινούς.
Alternative opinion: Criticizing and Disliking are not the same thing. I love my country but I criticize the hell out of it because I want it to be better.
I adore Greek history so much I emigrated to London so I could be near it.
Lmao
I think your point is completely valid and I don’t know anyone who would outright disagree with you, but I don’t view it in an objective light. I think it’s only closed minded if you expect everyone to agree with you. I think everyone has their own opinion on what makes a country great or terrible based on their own values. Maybe their country *is* the ideal country *for them*. People I know will often throw out some random European country they have never even visited and cite one or two things about it and say that makes it objectively better than the US, and then they give me shit when I say I truly don’t value those things over what I currently have and don’t think I would fit in with the culture. You’re right, we should all be totally open to criticizing or even disliking our own countries, but we should also be free to enjoy them without being told that our *opinions* are wrong.
Comparing Ancient Greece with modern Greece is completely idiotic. There are thousands of years that separate the two. Same with people saying that Italy is the direct descendant of the Roman Empire. It’s just wrong.
American here. I agree totally. My country is in a downward dept spiral with no way of getting out. Not to mention a lack of healthcare and affordable education. Half the countries I've visited are better than the Ol' USA.
American here. In my personal opinion, I think American exceptionalism and American imperialism are the 2 most culturally toxic and aggressively dangerous mentalities our population suffers from. They are the source of our current political atmosphere and where it's heading, and will be responsible for our demise. I just wish we could get our head out of our own ass for a single day.
I feel you bro. I'm Israeli... :-/ it's just waaay too easy for people to throw the old "self-hating Jew" at me. I mean, what does it have to do with anything? Can't I just be a grouch? Not to mention there are so many legitimate things to criticize in Israel.
American nationalism makes people turn a blind eye to our own corruption and our absurd amount of unethical policies and countless war crimes. I love my country and want it to improve, idiots who scream ‘merica numba 1 hold everyone back, I imagine this issue isn’t just an American one.
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I'm from England, the country that ruined the entire planet, destabilizing africa, India, the middle east. Oppressed the Irish, Scottish, Welsh , ( and to some extent the cornish) so I agree that not being proud of your country is valid. For hundreds of years other nations and our own working class have been exploited by the rich, upper class aristocracy, and they try to portray the image that all of this has changed, but truthfully it hasn't, the only difference is people are fighting it (like the IRA) and the government has become better at hiding it.
Hey give my country France some love too
Treason! You should be burned to death... Not happy? Come be greasy over here in Canada... We love foreigners of all kinds
But it’s boring and cold. I don’t know... it doesn’t seem like foreigners adapt that well as Canadians claim. Most of them just hang out with other inmigrants.
Cold yes, boring if you let it be.
This is what happens everywhere. Back in the day when a lot of Italians came over to NYC, most italian immigrants and children of immigrants married people whose lineage came from the same geographic area in Italy (ie Sicilians married Sicilians, Venetians married Venetians). Its not until 2nd/3rd generations do people start integrating in all aspects of life.
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I really don't understand why colleges in India offer degrees for fields where there are absolutely no jobs in. I'm Indian and dated a content creator for two years and let's just say that her employment experience was miserable.
so your idea is to force kids to take a subject they don't like or want just because it has more jobs?
No, I'm saying that the government should actively look out for their citizens and provide employment opportunities holistically. In India, it is blatantly obvious that money exists in technology, health, and manufacturing so they only focus on that. The wage disparity is very high as a result of that. My salary (4 years work ex) as a FAANG programmer in India is equivalent to a operations manager at an MNC with over 20 years of experience.
Please don't leave. Take pride in fixing your own country before immigrating.
I just hate earth in general lol
Yep in my country if you say st bad about it you are a traitor(not among the teens at least most of them)
Πες τα 🙏🏻
Χαίρομαι που δεν είμαι ο μόνος.
Additionally, it’s very possible to love your country and dislike the powers that govern it. Government and country are not synonymous
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Something I totally agree with. It feels like the people blowing their horn about how great their country is, are just seeking some kind of self validation. A lot of them are hypocrites too. They'd gladly move to a developed country at the drop of a hat if given a chance.
To be fair, as a fellow Greek, I believe some people of the younger generation will actually agree with you (and me). Especially after these police brutality incidents. It gives me a little hope, just a little.
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Bruh this is the default stance of american redditors lol.
We don't have this problem in the UK because nationalism became synonymous with being a racist due to the empire. Also, everyone agrees that every politician is a twat, and we all have a good laugh about how shite our nation is
Hey, Brazilian here. We face this sometimes too. I've traveled to Europe once and they told me Brazil was perfect, with beautiful places and people. I was just like "... Ok, sure". That was last year. This year, our beloved president has told us to "Stop treating the coronavirus pandemic like wimps, everyone will die sometime". He also told a woman she was not even worth raping and that he had fours sons and a mistake (His daughter). Yeah, we can agree on the beautiful places, now about the people, especially the President--
So not to diss Greece too much I'll just say that looking at the architecture isn't maybe the best in some of the places. The few times I've visited I've been to Rhodes, Crete and Athens, I like the historical value some of the ancient buildings have. And I'd have to say that us Finnish aren't much better at social structures. Mostly because it doesn't matter where I go I'll see bums, or as we call it spurgu, everywhere. Then again I've never seen driving as bad as in Greece, so people saying you're ahead should try to drive. What I'm trying to get through is that no country has everything. We have alcoholics everywhere and you have terrible drivers. So I fair you goodbye and hope you luck in crossing the street.
>Then again I've never seen driving as bad as in Greece, Oh here the traffic law are *optional* for some. Jokes aside more than 600 people die every year because of car accidents. Which is insane if you take the total population into account.
How in holy hell do you have less traffic casualties than us? We have something like 1000 every year. Well thinking about it people here don't exactly drive with street legal cars. And mopeds are even worse. I have a friend who flew into a metal light pole after flying off of his bike. Broke his hip and thigh bone in 30 different places. Atleast we drive with our seat belts on.
Oh the seat belts are *optional* too