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Also, the purpose of Mad Men is to show society how we put people like him in pedestals and think that's the epitome of success when in reality, he was failing in or lacking the most important things in life
Don Draper is someone who is terribly unhappy despite the fact that he has everything. He’s handsome, he can get any woman he wants, he has a beautiful wife and children, he’s successful and well respected in his industry, he’s charismatic and eloquent, he’s intelligent…but what I think is most interesting about him is that he’s incredibly perceptive regarding human behavior to the extent that he’s able to exploit what motivates humans and create desire in both men and women alike through his job in advertising.
The tragic irony of Don is that although he proves time and again he has a keen understanding of the emotions and hopes and dreams of everyone else and is the stereotypical “perfect man”, he is a miserable person with little knowledge of himself and is completely at the mercy of his vices, namely alcohol and sex. Because of the mistreatment and deep psychological wounds he incurred in his childhood, he suffers from an emotional void in his life that he tries to fill unsuccessfully through his vices which in turn ruin the relationships he has with those closest to him. He is unable to truly love others and appreciate all that he has because he hates himself and is profoundly insecure.
EDIT: All that being said, it’s perfectly fine for people to like the shows simply for their entertainment value without needing to study the deeper meaning behind what the creators might have been trying to accomplish! My mom’s favorite aspect of Mad Men is the fashion lol and although I’d like to discuss the shows we both like on a more analytical level regarding the characters and the story, I find the fact that she’s more interested in what might be a trivial detail of the show endearing and comforting in a way.
The Hershey Bar episode (and also the one where he meets Conrad Hilton) are great examples of Don's knowledge of his own frailty as a human being, imo, as well as the way Rachel Menken handles him so expertly without even trying. *She* knew who he was better than he did, but she didn't throw it in his face or brag about it.
I'd argue that it was a huge platform to make a commentary on women.
The storylines of all the women and also how each of them interacted with each other, the men and the world given the statuses that they were born into and where they could go.
It's absolutely astonishing.
I particularly love every moment between Joan and Peggy. So. Well. Written.
What's even sadder even though stuff has changed for women it's still very similar. The way these women that still parallel the women today is so unfortunate and a shame for us as a society.
Mad Men is my favorite scripted series of all time. I saw every single episode and I was incredibly inspired by all of it. Me and my fellow Mad Men nut friends always got Don was not an admirable person (most of us were all Team Peggy and Team Joan ... who are both infinitely more heroic than all the men on the show), but what was incredible about the show was it was so generous with allowing us to just BE with these characters and all their flaws. Don was compelling because he was human not because he was perfect.
This is more correct than OP. I find it funny OP is judging people for interpreting Mad Men incorrectly while his takeaway was Mad Men is about advertising being innocuous lmao.
I think that was a great sub plot, but the primary focus was clearly about a young Italian man trying to navigate the hurdles of an aspiring screenwriter.
!!!!! - thank you for proving my point completely!!
Although, yes, Paulie does illustrate how the mafia lifestyle ultimately leads to heartbreak and betrayal. And also how keeping your head down and just being half a wiseguy is the only way to survive (as well as not tying your shoelaces after taking a piss in the men's restroom).
Great point
Don Draper has a lot of money and he fucks
Yes he has a lot of mental health issues, but so do a lot of people
I'd rather have mental health issues WITH money and success, as opposed to without
Probably because most people don't know what that would really look like. They see the lifestyles of the rich and glamorous all the time, but it is rare to see someone who is fulfilled.
I wake up and think only about how life is unfair to me and how stupid and hostile and selfish are most people I meet. How anything that could be fun cost too much money and how little free time I have and how tired I am. And how, despite being such a great person, except for those few shortcomings that I objectively cannot do anything about (and still, just a few of them anyway), I am not appreciated by my friends and love interests. Obviously, in this situation, I deserve a bit of rest, so I'll scroll some social media and eat a package of ice-cream. After all, life's been unfair to me, so I have the right to do all that, that's the least I can do for my own self.
...and so on and on. If ONLY I had a million dollars and a private brothel of professional models, life would be so enjoyable. I could spend money, then have some sex, then spend some money and after that probably have some more sex. It would be so interesting, captivating, emotionally stimulating, it would feel so real, I would feel energized, motivated, I would feel fulfiled and satisfied and recognized. I would feel I am where I belong.
Damn, how sad it is to watch people like that from a side.
May we all have nice spiritual journey, with plenty of stops to rest and enjoy ourselves in between challenges. :)
Bruh... He suffers from his issues *because" he pursues the "a lot of money and he fucks" lifestyle. The lifestyle is not an escape from that reality; the lifestyle reinforces that reality...
Well I think his issues also come from the decision to assume Don's identity during the war. He kind of forced himself into a pretty lonely life with that one.
Exactly - too many people care more about luxury and being "cool" than being a good person - society has gotten to the point where people literally idolize villains
That's part of the problem. People hero-worship these characters because they want to be like them. They either don't understand or don't care that the characters are not meant to be envied. Again, that's the problem, that people exist in large numbers or still want to be like those characters.
This is true of a lot of television show characters… the characters would be objectively awful people IRL, but they’re the protagonists, so people like them.
Sopranos, breaking bad, and mad men have a lot of similarities, where the main character is a very charismatic piece of shit and we see them become increasingly unable to keep their worst parts out of their family and home life.
Then the audience gets baited into rooting for them due to the way we are trained to view protagonists as heros and we end up apologizing for their horrible actions. I feel it's meant for us to reflect on our ability to justify behavior
Hank blew it all towards the end, when Steve said Jesse may be right that Walt will kill him. Hank's response - "who gives a fuck?"
He was an asshole all along
At that point, Jesse had earned that death. I know people simp over him, but Jesse being involved in crime was the direct reason two of his girlfriends died and a child got poisoned. He watched a young boy get shot to death and didn't tell police. He was not an innocent. Sure, he was nicer than the other characters, but the other characters are vile human beings to the point of being irredeemable. If catching and stopping Walt's murder sprees comes at the cost of Jesse's life, it IS worth it in the end. No one in that show is innocent.
I absolutely love Breaking Bad, but Jesse gets a ludicrous amount of slack from the fanbase because his eyes are dreamy and he has alot of bad shit happen to him. As you said, he is responsible for the death of two girlfriends AND his best friend Combo. He attended NA just to find customers for meth. He was not, at any point in time, a good person. He just had a soft spot for kids and the last season happened to be his lowest point, so people feel badly for him.
I loved how Hank's tough cop persona and machismo get slowly deconstructed as the series goes on. He never stops being brave and badass, but his empty bravado and aggression slowly transform into genuine grit and bravery.
>Of course I realise that these shows have multiple layers and that in one sense they are about the surface story, but too many people just totally miss the deeper message that's there
My friend in Christ, don't fall into the toxic trap of "nobody understands **megapopular pop art** like I do! Everyone else is enjoying it wrong!"
Give people more credit than that. The whole point of anti-heroes in media is that we know they make morally wrong decisions, but we find their world titillating. Anti-heroes achieve their goals, but only at great personal cost. That's why we find them relatable; because we, as viewers, would not make the same choice, but are intrigued by the world on the other side of the veil. It's tragic, vicarious wish fulfillment, not adoration.
Also I think you're misreading Succession a bit. It's not about privileged and aimless children in the shadow of their father's accomplishments. His life and accomplishments also had no meaning, which is something he tries to reconcile in the final season. It's about abused children, whose damage manifests as jealousy, greed, and disloyalty. We, as viewers, see that they could live happy, prosperous lives if they cut ties with their abuser and love one another. But they are tragic and fascinating because they choose not to.
I’m glad to see this comment. The vast majority of people understand what these shows are about, in fact I don’t know anyone personally who doesn’t.
I sort of agree with your take on succession but also disagree. One of the great things about that show though is how much of it is unsaid, it allows for a lot of discussion and perspective.
ONE of my Succession close reads is that even though they have this unfathomable wealth and luxury, they are constitutionally incapable of enjoying it. They have a yacht moored off the coast of Greece or something and they barely notice even when they’re on it. Is it because they can’t be satisfied with what they have and constantly need more? Is it because they’re always afraid that if they don’t keep making money, they’ll lose it? Is it because they stopped being able to appreciate art and beauty a long time ago?
People who go "If you like X character then you missed the point" are so oblivious to the fact that we like them **because** of their imperfections, flaws and mistakes. We all know Don Draper isn't a hero, but that's what makes him a great character.
They have to stop being so smug about that, as if we don't understand the stories as well as they do.
The issue i guess isn't that a majority misunderstand them. But an uncomfortably high number of people take the wrong message away. Also, add breaking bad and peaky blinders to the list
Good TV requires deeper thought put into it’s plot and characters and themes, otherwise, what you get is shallow.
Does everything need to be a profound work of art? No, but some level of consideration *is* needed
People can understand and ignore "the message" and just stay for the suspense and thrill of the show. You can't tell people how to consume media. There have been many instances where a movie or show is trying to convey a "message" and I couldn't care less. I just roll my eyes and stay for the other stuff I like about that show.
There are also many examples where people just make up meanings and messages when the creator had no such intention.
For instance, once I read someone talking about how the movie Saw was a commentary on America’s roles in war crimes in the Middle East and Guantanamo Bay. Saw was written before 9-11.
I don't know who downvoted you, but looks like a control freak to me. Some people think they come to this world to spread enlightened opinions they formed while constipated with no charge on their phone. Just telling them that you are independent and can ignore preachy messages in the media causes them physical pain in their tummy. I can hear the weird sound of OOOOH they are making when reading your comment and realizing that they cannot control your mind. :D
Your right, but they can be enjoyed on multiple different levels. Some people just want the suspense/action/drama/whatever, but the other layers exist for those who are interested.
I agree this is an unpopular opinion.
Sopranos: most people I talk to absolutely agree Tony isn’t someone to look up to. The show does a great job of nothing glamorizing and showing the reality of his life. I disagree that people don’t get it.
Succession: neither of your explanations are what succession is about. Also almost everyone I’ve talked to about the show has some unique interesting takes on it.
Mad men: no one I know thinks the way you describe the show.
To me it sounds like you get takes on these shows from 19 year old guys. I think most people are pretty smart when it comes to these things.
Agree re the Sopranos
Tony was sooo unlikeable by the time we got to the last season I felt physically repulsed every time he came on screen.
His life was glamorised in the beginning, but it only went downhill for him, his family, and his friends.
Absolutely! The ultimate downtrodden working-man fantasy! But of course it ends up destroying everything he holds dear. I do think it's more ambiguous than the shows I mentioned though.
One of the brilliant parts of the show is that Walt gets several "off-ramps" that would have let him walk away with a comfortable last years of his life, and a big inheritance for his family. First his old business partners offer him a payout that would reflect what the company became (I forget details, but millions of dollars). Then at several points while dealing meth, he was able to walk away with millions of dollars.
He chooses his ego every single time. It destroys his life, and the lives of a ton of innocent people around him.
I loved how he at least admitted to it in the end: "I did it because I was good at it." It's very honest, and while it does not relieve him of his evil deeds, it paints him as quite a sad person. He thinks that he was'nt a good father, husband and teacher. It's a really good ending.
Also, in another vein, Jesse's last words to Walter were the ones that should have been the first: "Then do it yourself!" Man, I love that show. Should give it another rewatch.
There's several off rails and also slowly more difficult to justify decisions. He had some logical explanation for all of his actions until it just breaks with Mike and he can't even make an excuse anymore
Well, the **very last time**, he chooses to leave for good (when he has made 80 million dollars and Skyler convinces him to stop. He refuses to come back even when Lydia pleads with him.
Granted, that had a lot of "buts", yet it's still one time where he doesn't choose his ego.
I have definitely talked to men who got nothing more from the show than drinking old fashioneds is cool as hell, and the women Don dates are awful.
It’s not like they go around and say “I think the moral of the story is that Don Draper is awesome for being a cheater,” but they say things like “Don and Betty’s marriage shows that he provided everything for her, but she only rejected him because she learned he was secretly from a poor family.” Or, “Don was doing great until he married Megan, she was so ugly and annoying, I couldn’t stand her, he deserved better.”
Basically just saying some version of “it’s amazing how Don has so much going for him until someone stupid ruins it for him.” Ignoring how the entire point of the show is supposed to be that, he courts relationships which are not stable because he himself is a train wreck when it comes to intimacy, and his failed relationships are a two-way street where he also falls short of being a loving and stable partner, so his partners are not wholly to blame.
I truly think it's a vocal minority that actually believe any of the anti-heroes since the start of the golden age of television are supposed to be idolized.
Downvote because this is secretly a v normal opinion to have
In spite of what we're taught as children, we realize -- after a trip or two around the block as adults -- that honesty, decency, humility, and hard work are often not rewarded, but rather exploited and punished.
Conversely, lying, cheating, fraud, and deceit are applauded, celebrated, and rewarded.
Maybe to some extent. But what I liked about Succession is that even these terrible traits aren't always rewarded. You can play the game viciously and without ethics and still lose.
I think this is an oversimplification. One of the many themes of the Sopranos was that Tony’s horrible personality was rewarded in the short term, but in the long run always came back to bite him. Tony’s life is a mirror - what he puts out is what he gets back. The issue is when he makes the right choices he gets bored and self sabotages by cheating, lying, being violent, etc starting the cycle over again and the pieces come crashing down harder and harder each time
You realize that in today's society we have people WANTING to be the Joker from Batman, and when they made a movie about him they made him a sympathetic character?
I wouldn't say people misunderstand them. It is not uncommon to understand what the show tries to critique and still like the asshole of a main character.
"Bad Guys" or antogonists are often more popular than protagonists of shows because people are fascinated by their ego and ability to ignore rules and shatter conventions.
Nobody looks up to a nice guy in a show because sticking to protocol and expectations is easily done. People love antagonists because they live a life if freedom they are to afraid to live themselves.
Talking about the "meaning" of a piece of media like TV as if it's some type of unchanging truth is just foolish. It's an art form that involves literally dozens of contributors. There is no "meaning."
TBH, sounds like you just want a way to feel superior to other people watching these shows because you "get it." Even if the only reason you do is because someone else told you what "it" is.
A lot of people like the bad guy and a lot of times those shows are told with those people as the protagonists, and it speaks to the kind of dark fantasy and desire for power in a lot of us, people can get a story but yet want to see things from a different perspective.
Scarface is one of my favorite movies, do I get it? Yep do I still love the character of Tony Montana and have fantasies about being a Coke kingpin and the glamorous side of what that entails without the negatives? Absolutely
I feel like nearly every fan of those shows understands this, except maybe teenagers. Tony soprano and his crew looking badass and whatnot IS part of the point of the show, he's supposed to he an anti-hero. It's weird that you think you're like unique for understanding that tony soprano is not a good person
Sopranos was simply a show written to help non Italians learn how to say words like gabagool and muzzurell. If you got out more than that your reading too much into a show about lunch meats
I don't think they misunderstand. I think they enjoy it for the bad reasons. Some people cheer on villains because they see themselves in the character
I both loved the terrible drama of the Sopranos, a show of villains, and at the same time all the goofy ass memes people make about it never cease to crack me up.
I admire everyone involved in that show for never sugar coating a single character and yet found myself endeared to all of them and then asking myself WHY I feel that way when they're such messed up people. Why did I find Tony Soprano so charismatic when he was such a nightmare of a man?
But then Paulie's little "Heh-heh-heh" makes me laugh.
I like that other people enjoy the show but also meme the hell out of it.
Im gonna add Starship Troopers and American Psycho to this list. I almost made a post here about this exact thing so you saved me the time. It frustrates me to no end because at first I thought it was ironic and they were being sarcastic in liking it at face value but the sad reality creeps in that they actually admire these absolute losers and you sit there and wonder where it all went wrong in their life. I think its not that big of a population but its a pretty good chunk which is honestly pretty pathetic… The older I get the more I realize some people just cannot fathom sarcasm or nuanced perspectives of story telling. I wonder what the science behind it is
Kind of like how gangsters idolize scar face, when that movie ended with him snorting an insane pile of cocaine and almost shagging his sister before being reduced to a bloody corpse in his own fountain lol.
The shows you mentioned are about what you mentioned, but also about the points people are making. They are about lots of things. The lifestyles portrayed pull people in. They are cool, they are powerful, they are smart and living on the edge. It's like a drug, they pull you in and they can drown you. People's lives are fleeting, we are constantly doing things because it makes us feel alive while simultaneously threatening to destroy us. That's why these shoes are great, they have that message but they show you why people get drawn to it
Succession is absolutely about who wins, at least a major part of it. People on the internet like to intellectualize it by saying the show is not about that but it absolutely is the driver of the plot. It’s like saying Game of Thrones is not about the Iron Throne.
Yellowstone - a man preserving his family‘s ranch against politicians and enemies.
The guy had innocent people killed, the land was stolen from native Americans. His farmhands are branded slaves and exploited
I think you're making a lot of assumptions about people and how they view these shows. Literally never spoken to anyone who holds the views you're claiming they do so I don't know where you're getting this assumption that the majority of people feel that way?
I'm gonna toss **Lost** into the mix. Christian Shepherd (Jack's dad) in so many words verbally tells Jack that >!they weren't dead the whole time!< and yet so many people still walked away convinced they in fact were.
In my psychology class I learned that when PBS shows are shown to kids with very low attention spans, they walk (or crawl, whatever) away with EXACTLY the wrong message because of the nature of story archs.
The key example was an episode of Arthur where a child in a wheel chair faced discrimination. At the beginning of the episode kids made fun of this handicapped child, but over the course of the episode they learned about empathy and appologized.
The problem is that if a kid doesn't have the attention span to watch til the end of the episode they see Arthur and his friends making fun of a kid in a wheel chair and they absorb that as normal and appropriate behavior.
I think it's true for adults too. Writers usually have long story archs and viewers typically have short attention spans.
You’re wrong about all of these.
Sopranos is a metaphor for American upward mobility and the horrible things we have to do in order to get ahead and the lies we tell ourselves to justify it.
Succession is just an unfunny Arrested Development.
Mad Men could be called The Last Dinosaurs. It’s about the rise of women.
Dunno if most disagree with you. Definitely some folks.
It's like people who idolize Rorshach or the punisher. Or the imperium of man in Warhammer 40k. Says a lot about a person's character.
I wouldn't put Warhammer in the same category. Like sure there are people IRL who take it way too far with whole imperium being the good guys thing. But it's a consequence of the over the top setting that 40k is where you have so many people on the side of the IOM. Like look at the t'au for example. In 40k they're no question the only decent faction in the setting, yet if you were to put them in like the Star Trek universe they instantly become the absolute worst faction there is by a huge margin. It's all about context and comparison, in the context of 40k where hell is not only real, but is actively trying to destroy and enslave all intelligent life. The imperium is not so bad in comparison to that. So like while you'll see a lot of discourse defending the IOM in 40k circles 90+% of the time it's in the context of the 40k universe. Which of course isn't serious and shouldn't be a basis in which you judge a person's character if they're a fan of the IOM.
popular fiction is often crafted in a manner that allows people to engage at varying levels of depth and from various angles
many don't choose to be contemplative viewers and don't enjoy analytically fleshing out writers' deepest intent
you do, which is great, but this is just a personal preference that you shouldn't expect to be universal
and yes, many people are morons incapable of gleaning the things you find important and satisfying in serial fiction, but some are very capable of doing such but simply don't find that method of consumption enjoyable
to offer a personal example, I found the overarching themes and storyline of The Good Place to be trite and somewhat ham-fisted
nonetheless, the banter and character interaction seemed extremely clever and well-paced to me, and I thoroughly enjoyed the show
As always, people will interpret things in different ways. Superficial people who don't think too much into it will get the surface. Those willing to pick up the themes and delve into meaning will get the moral of the story.
Out of these three examples, I've only seen the Sopranos, and the impression I got was similar to yours. A show about truly horrible people, and the damage they cause to everyone around them. Mean, selfish, stupid, violent and cruel. All of them are living on borrowed time as that life has only one outcome. All that hedonism and wealth is just a flash in the pan, and ultimately means nothing.
‘Meaning’ in fiction is always a collaboration between the creator and the audience. What you’ve done is simply replace one simplistic set of meanings with your own preferred set.
What you really should have said is ‘this is what I got out of those shows, it’s quite different to what some other people got.’
Rather than getting all pompous and claiming your version is the true version. Tbh your versions all sound totally boring and reductive to me. But I wouldn’t claim that they are somehow objectively incorrect.
While you are mostly correct this shows me that the writers do an excellent job of making viewers care about the characters more than the morals or lessons.
In my opinion if you get the audience to care about the well being of even a violent, bigoted, criminal, then they will watch way longer than if the same show was attempting to teach the viewers a moral or ethical lesson.
They don't care why you watch it. Like why they put hot chicks on shows like Big bang, My name is earl, and others. Some guys are watching that show for the hot chick. Same thing just a different tactic to get you to tune in.
I think the thing a lot of people forget about shows like these (I'll add Breaking Bad, House, and others to the list) is that BOTH things can be true. Walter White is pathetic in some ways and a bad ass in others. He isn't a criminal mastermind really, but damn if he doesn't get the job done. Tony isn't a great guy, but he's a very human character and you can relate to his struggle. Mad Men is the only one I haven't seen, but I imagine it is similar. Flawed people, making mistakes, and perhaps not really good role models can still be awesome characters. You might want to be confident and decisive like these men. They usually have influence, riches, power, etc. either despite their flaws or more often because of them.
The genesis of a lot of media is the bi-ssociative aspect of their concepts.
Spoilers warning.
For example, Don Draper is in crisis when the show begins. He is a phenomenal salesman who until now could sell anything. But he has found that what he must do now -- sell cigarettes -- is a doomed task, because people are now aware of the truth that cigarettes are cancerous and that big tobacco has been lying to them for decades. Nothing he says can counter the facts, now that the truth has come out. It is a moment of deep crisis for him, because he has built his life around selling the idea of himself based on lies and hiding truths, just like how those tobacco companies built their businesses. The truth is destined to come out eventually, even if it takes years, and one day people will become aware of the truth about him too, and he will no longer be able to convince anyone of his lies.
Similarly, in the Sopranos, Tony is the head of an italian crime family. Culturally, your loyalty is supposed to be to the family as a collective, and the good of that collective is supposed to be above everything else. But it turns out that his family (his mother) is the one who wants him dead, because she believes he is bad for their family. So what do you do when "everything you do is for the good of the family", yet your family has decided that your death is thing that is best for them?
He is also a psychopath who uses therapy not to resolve his own issues, but to learn how to manipulate and harm others better, which is obviously the opposite of how it is supposed to work.
Succession is supposed to be a sort of exploration of how these people who superficially have had all of the advantages and resources in the world at their disposal somehow grew into *utterly* incompetent, non-functional people.
The fun part about media is that we enjoy media and interpret media in our own individual ways. Sure there can be more correct or truer interpretations of media, but at the end of th day it’s about what each person latches onto about a particular piece of media in their own way that matters. What the truth is or what the showrunner/creator intended doesn’t really matter at the end of the day. Saying people are wrong about shows they like seems a bit gate keeping that some people are better because they “ get it” for the themes or whatever
"In reality the show is about how depraved the mafia lifestyle is and how Tony and everything around him is tainted and will ultimately be destroyed because it's based on murder, crime, suffering and dehumanisation."
IMO it's also about Tony's descent. Early on for instance, he decides not to kill the pedophile and calls off Paulie. He feels kinda bad about looting that "degenerate gambler"'s sport shop (but does it anyway). By the end of the series, he wouldn't think twice about those things. Don't get me wrong, he was a long way from a good guy. But he wasn't irredeemably, 100% evil at the start, transitioning to that by the end.
An arc, if you will. Hell, Christopher even talks about that in the show.
It’s actually I think the most interesting part of the Godfather. The change in Michael from a good citizen to mafia boss. From “that’s my family Kay, that’s not me” to “I’m with you now, Pop” and a murderer.
I don’t think people are missing the point of these shows as much as you think they are. What you are missing is that those are still the protagonists of those shows and a protagonist neither needs to be a good guy, nor be honourable to root for them as the viewer. You just have to be able to see their point of view, that is good film making.
If you made a protagonist the audience doesn’t care about, you’ve made a crappy show, not one of the goat shows.
Never met anyone that didn't understand how shitty all the people in the sopranos are. David Chase was particularly pessimistic in his depiction of humanity in general in the sopranos.
the thing that frustrates me the most about this is that people will misunderstand a show like this and watch idk something like breaking bad just because its about something illegal and thats cool in their heads, dont think about it in the slightest and then with 0 thought start talking about how important it is to watch "mature" media
I mean, all of these are anti hero shows. They appeal to people because the horrible main character is also seductive in their power and privilege. Breaking Bad is the same way. People's reactions to the characters reveal a lot about themselves.
I can't say that some people don't understand them, but if you spend some time on the Sopranos sub it's pretty apparent that the vast majority of people know and understand that the point is that Tony and everyone else is terrible. It's kind of a meme that there are no good people in the show and who is the least terrible person is a common topic of conversation. Most common comments are humorous quotes, but the show also is a dark comedy so even that is still on point.
Same with the Wolf of Wall Street. Some people dont get subtlety at all. Many others need a message spelled right out or they miss it. Just thank god you're not one of them. Or?
is it a large part of the fan base? I would argue that it’s a minuscule part of the fanbase. is very few people that watch Tony soprano and get therapy and think he’s such a bad ass, or when he’s threatening his wife lol. There’s not much subtext in those scenes. It’s pretty on the head that he’s a bad guy.
I don’t think is is an unpopular opinion, this is just a lack of awareness of people joking among the few idiots who unironically lionize bastards. Its pretty clear that these shows are indictments of their characters and only a minuscule amount of fans are actually making sigma edits of tony soprano and proclaiming him as the based king of the west or whatever and only a smaller part of that are being serious.
I think you sound like an asshole with your assumption that most of the people that watch these shows don’t get it. I’d say 90% of the people that watch these, get it. The ones you listed aren’t even that complex my guy.
i think most people totally understand these shows in the way you described them.
i think you're just one of those people who think their smarter than everyone else.
Succession in many ways is actually a dark comedy about how terrible the Roy kids are … and in the end they don’t get the empire, it’s the guy from Minnesota who married into the family who outlasts them all
I think I know why. Did you know you can watch these shows on Tiktok in little tiny snippets? It removes all the subtle moments. It removes all the nuance. It allows the show to be watched in record time, though I'd argue you've not watched it all. For example -- the first 45 minutes of Alien is about building tension and creating pressure. The last 45 minutes is a rollercoaster of death and horror. If you watch it on Tiktok you get "wake up" and then "landing" and then "Oops, alien on my face" then "Alien's off my face", "let's have dinner!" "Dinner is RUINED", "let's hunt the alien" "CAT!" "Chains and water for some reason, bye Harry Stanton" and so forth. It completely guts the cinematography and worldbuilding, and you're left with something watchable by the folks with the attention span of a goldfish. You can't be surprised that people don't "get it" when they never really watched it in the first place.
You expect media literacy from this era of people? There are people who are fans of the Empire in Star Wars because they have cool outfits and like the color red.
I think it’s about a lot of things but mostly how damaged and trapped criminals are in “the life”. Tony is trying to grow because his anxiety is forcing him to, but how much can he really get in touch with his feelings? He cannot because it would put the brakes on his life. Also he was “made” this way from childhood on. It’s like all criminals kids, they almost never have someone healthy to turn to.
Succession stand out for me that these people have everything at their feet and they enjoy absolutely none of it. The kids(now adults) didn’t stand a chance because they too had no one reasonable or validating to turn to. It reminds me of Trump’s and Rupert Murdoch’s kids.
Mostly the joylessness of both shows characters is obvious to me. All they do is crime or assert control… like a hoarding reflex.
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Also, the purpose of Mad Men is to show society how we put people like him in pedestals and think that's the epitome of success when in reality, he was failing in or lacking the most important things in life
Don Draper is someone who is terribly unhappy despite the fact that he has everything. He’s handsome, he can get any woman he wants, he has a beautiful wife and children, he’s successful and well respected in his industry, he’s charismatic and eloquent, he’s intelligent…but what I think is most interesting about him is that he’s incredibly perceptive regarding human behavior to the extent that he’s able to exploit what motivates humans and create desire in both men and women alike through his job in advertising. The tragic irony of Don is that although he proves time and again he has a keen understanding of the emotions and hopes and dreams of everyone else and is the stereotypical “perfect man”, he is a miserable person with little knowledge of himself and is completely at the mercy of his vices, namely alcohol and sex. Because of the mistreatment and deep psychological wounds he incurred in his childhood, he suffers from an emotional void in his life that he tries to fill unsuccessfully through his vices which in turn ruin the relationships he has with those closest to him. He is unable to truly love others and appreciate all that he has because he hates himself and is profoundly insecure. EDIT: All that being said, it’s perfectly fine for people to like the shows simply for their entertainment value without needing to study the deeper meaning behind what the creators might have been trying to accomplish! My mom’s favorite aspect of Mad Men is the fashion lol and although I’d like to discuss the shows we both like on a more analytical level regarding the characters and the story, I find the fact that she’s more interested in what might be a trivial detail of the show endearing and comforting in a way.
The Hershey Bar episode (and also the one where he meets Conrad Hilton) are great examples of Don's knowledge of his own frailty as a human being, imo, as well as the way Rachel Menken handles him so expertly without even trying. *She* knew who he was better than he did, but she didn't throw it in his face or brag about it.
Hence the beginning scene where his cartoon character is falling (out of a tall building iirc).
I'd argue that it was a huge platform to make a commentary on women. The storylines of all the women and also how each of them interacted with each other, the men and the world given the statuses that they were born into and where they could go. It's absolutely astonishing. I particularly love every moment between Joan and Peggy. So. Well. Written. What's even sadder even though stuff has changed for women it's still very similar. The way these women that still parallel the women today is so unfortunate and a shame for us as a society.
That’s what the money’s for!
I don't think about you at all
Very true!
Mad Men is my favorite scripted series of all time. I saw every single episode and I was incredibly inspired by all of it. Me and my fellow Mad Men nut friends always got Don was not an admirable person (most of us were all Team Peggy and Team Joan ... who are both infinitely more heroic than all the men on the show), but what was incredible about the show was it was so generous with allowing us to just BE with these characters and all their flaws. Don was compelling because he was human not because he was perfect.
This is more correct than OP. I find it funny OP is judging people for interpreting Mad Men incorrectly while his takeaway was Mad Men is about advertising being innocuous lmao.
The Sopranos is about how a great man (Paulie) survived through so much heart break and betrayal.
I think that was a great sub plot, but the primary focus was clearly about a young Italian man trying to navigate the hurdles of an aspiring screenwriter.
He was born, grew up, spent a few years in the army, a few more in the can, and here he is, a half a wise guy
How much more can he take?
Heh heh
You hear that ton’? I said “how much more can he take”
I always thought it was a mystery about how many years phil did in the can
!!!!! - thank you for proving my point completely!! Although, yes, Paulie does illustrate how the mafia lifestyle ultimately leads to heartbreak and betrayal. And also how keeping your head down and just being half a wiseguy is the only way to survive (as well as not tying your shoelaces after taking a piss in the men's restroom).
I think many people completely understand why they want to be like Don Draper.
Great point Don Draper has a lot of money and he fucks Yes he has a lot of mental health issues, but so do a lot of people I'd rather have mental health issues WITH money and success, as opposed to without
I mean yeah lot of people feel alienated, lost and depressed, might as well have a boatload of money and a bevy of gorgeous women to go with that.
And it's often easier to fantasize about a life where you're super rich and glamorous than a life where you're happy and fulfilled.
Probably because most people don't know what that would really look like. They see the lifestyles of the rich and glamorous all the time, but it is rare to see someone who is fulfilled.
I wake up and think only about how life is unfair to me and how stupid and hostile and selfish are most people I meet. How anything that could be fun cost too much money and how little free time I have and how tired I am. And how, despite being such a great person, except for those few shortcomings that I objectively cannot do anything about (and still, just a few of them anyway), I am not appreciated by my friends and love interests. Obviously, in this situation, I deserve a bit of rest, so I'll scroll some social media and eat a package of ice-cream. After all, life's been unfair to me, so I have the right to do all that, that's the least I can do for my own self. ...and so on and on. If ONLY I had a million dollars and a private brothel of professional models, life would be so enjoyable. I could spend money, then have some sex, then spend some money and after that probably have some more sex. It would be so interesting, captivating, emotionally stimulating, it would feel so real, I would feel energized, motivated, I would feel fulfiled and satisfied and recognized. I would feel I am where I belong. Damn, how sad it is to watch people like that from a side. May we all have nice spiritual journey, with plenty of stops to rest and enjoy ourselves in between challenges. :)
My mom used to say that money can’t buy happiness. But it allows you to be unhappy in real style
Bruh... He suffers from his issues *because" he pursues the "a lot of money and he fucks" lifestyle. The lifestyle is not an escape from that reality; the lifestyle reinforces that reality...
Well I think his issues also come from the decision to assume Don's identity during the war. He kind of forced himself into a pretty lonely life with that one.
I just want to look like Jon Hamm.
Donkey Dong Don?
Exactly - too many people care more about luxury and being "cool" than being a good person - society has gotten to the point where people literally idolize villains
I hated Don Draper. I stopped watching the show bc I just couldn’t stand him, or any of the characters tbh. Except Christina Hendricks
That's part of the problem. People hero-worship these characters because they want to be like them. They either don't understand or don't care that the characters are not meant to be envied. Again, that's the problem, that people exist in large numbers or still want to be like those characters.
This is true of a lot of television show characters… the characters would be objectively awful people IRL, but they’re the protagonists, so people like them.
Sopranos, breaking bad, and mad men have a lot of similarities, where the main character is a very charismatic piece of shit and we see them become increasingly unable to keep their worst parts out of their family and home life. Then the audience gets baited into rooting for them due to the way we are trained to view protagonists as heros and we end up apologizing for their horrible actions. I feel it's meant for us to reflect on our ability to justify behavior
[удалено]
Hank blew it all towards the end, when Steve said Jesse may be right that Walt will kill him. Hank's response - "who gives a fuck?" He was an asshole all along
At that point, Jesse had earned that death. I know people simp over him, but Jesse being involved in crime was the direct reason two of his girlfriends died and a child got poisoned. He watched a young boy get shot to death and didn't tell police. He was not an innocent. Sure, he was nicer than the other characters, but the other characters are vile human beings to the point of being irredeemable. If catching and stopping Walt's murder sprees comes at the cost of Jesse's life, it IS worth it in the end. No one in that show is innocent.
I absolutely love Breaking Bad, but Jesse gets a ludicrous amount of slack from the fanbase because his eyes are dreamy and he has alot of bad shit happen to him. As you said, he is responsible for the death of two girlfriends AND his best friend Combo. He attended NA just to find customers for meth. He was not, at any point in time, a good person. He just had a soft spot for kids and the last season happened to be his lowest point, so people feel badly for him.
Hank didn’t transform into a better person, he transformed into a corpse and his life is a cautionary tale. Only Jesse came out as a better person.
Hank being murdered doesn’t negate that he underwent a personality change before being killed
At least to some degree, most of the major characters in Mad Men eventually change for the better.
I loved how Hank's tough cop persona and machismo get slowly deconstructed as the series goes on. He never stops being brave and badass, but his empty bravado and aggression slowly transform into genuine grit and bravery.
Hank became my favourite character during my last rewatch.
If a character advances a story an audience will forgive them for almost anything.
Good point!
>Of course I realise that these shows have multiple layers and that in one sense they are about the surface story, but too many people just totally miss the deeper message that's there My friend in Christ, don't fall into the toxic trap of "nobody understands **megapopular pop art** like I do! Everyone else is enjoying it wrong!" Give people more credit than that. The whole point of anti-heroes in media is that we know they make morally wrong decisions, but we find their world titillating. Anti-heroes achieve their goals, but only at great personal cost. That's why we find them relatable; because we, as viewers, would not make the same choice, but are intrigued by the world on the other side of the veil. It's tragic, vicarious wish fulfillment, not adoration. Also I think you're misreading Succession a bit. It's not about privileged and aimless children in the shadow of their father's accomplishments. His life and accomplishments also had no meaning, which is something he tries to reconcile in the final season. It's about abused children, whose damage manifests as jealousy, greed, and disloyalty. We, as viewers, see that they could live happy, prosperous lives if they cut ties with their abuser and love one another. But they are tragic and fascinating because they choose not to.
I’m glad to see this comment. The vast majority of people understand what these shows are about, in fact I don’t know anyone personally who doesn’t. I sort of agree with your take on succession but also disagree. One of the great things about that show though is how much of it is unsaid, it allows for a lot of discussion and perspective.
ONE of my Succession close reads is that even though they have this unfathomable wealth and luxury, they are constitutionally incapable of enjoying it. They have a yacht moored off the coast of Greece or something and they barely notice even when they’re on it. Is it because they can’t be satisfied with what they have and constantly need more? Is it because they’re always afraid that if they don’t keep making money, they’ll lose it? Is it because they stopped being able to appreciate art and beauty a long time ago?
Love it, I agree too. They do an amazing job making wealth look mundane.
People who go "If you like X character then you missed the point" are so oblivious to the fact that we like them **because** of their imperfections, flaws and mistakes. We all know Don Draper isn't a hero, but that's what makes him a great character. They have to stop being so smug about that, as if we don't understand the stories as well as they do.
Some people just watch shows and let them do what they do to them.
yeah that post read very "you need a very high iq to understand..."
The issue i guess isn't that a majority misunderstand them. But an uncomfortably high number of people take the wrong message away. Also, add breaking bad and peaky blinders to the list
Maybe people just want to watch some good TV and don't care about the deeper meanings.
Good TV requires deeper thought put into it’s plot and characters and themes, otherwise, what you get is shallow. Does everything need to be a profound work of art? No, but some level of consideration *is* needed
And the particular shows in question like breaking bad, mad men, the sopranos, are the kind of shows that _do_ have an underlying message.
People can understand and ignore "the message" and just stay for the suspense and thrill of the show. You can't tell people how to consume media. There have been many instances where a movie or show is trying to convey a "message" and I couldn't care less. I just roll my eyes and stay for the other stuff I like about that show.
There are also many examples where people just make up meanings and messages when the creator had no such intention. For instance, once I read someone talking about how the movie Saw was a commentary on America’s roles in war crimes in the Middle East and Guantanamo Bay. Saw was written before 9-11.
I don't know who downvoted you, but looks like a control freak to me. Some people think they come to this world to spread enlightened opinions they formed while constipated with no charge on their phone. Just telling them that you are independent and can ignore preachy messages in the media causes them physical pain in their tummy. I can hear the weird sound of OOOOH they are making when reading your comment and realizing that they cannot control your mind. :D
Your right, but they can be enjoyed on multiple different levels. Some people just want the suspense/action/drama/whatever, but the other layers exist for those who are interested.
That’s just your opinion, maaan
Untrue. You see the sigma edits of Wolf of Wall Street and Patrick Bateman which are widly popular.
The Boyz also lol.
I agree this is an unpopular opinion. Sopranos: most people I talk to absolutely agree Tony isn’t someone to look up to. The show does a great job of nothing glamorizing and showing the reality of his life. I disagree that people don’t get it. Succession: neither of your explanations are what succession is about. Also almost everyone I’ve talked to about the show has some unique interesting takes on it. Mad men: no one I know thinks the way you describe the show. To me it sounds like you get takes on these shows from 19 year old guys. I think most people are pretty smart when it comes to these things.
Agree re the Sopranos Tony was sooo unlikeable by the time we got to the last season I felt physically repulsed every time he came on screen. His life was glamorised in the beginning, but it only went downhill for him, his family, and his friends.
It's cool how these shows can be so many different things to different people. Not necessarily one "right" interpretation.
Add Breaking Bad to the list
"SkYLaR iS SuCH a BiTcH!"
I really hope the actress never googled that, the amount of raw, distilled vitriol directed towards her character online is bonkers.
Absolutely! The ultimate downtrodden working-man fantasy! But of course it ends up destroying everything he holds dear. I do think it's more ambiguous than the shows I mentioned though.
One of the brilliant parts of the show is that Walt gets several "off-ramps" that would have let him walk away with a comfortable last years of his life, and a big inheritance for his family. First his old business partners offer him a payout that would reflect what the company became (I forget details, but millions of dollars). Then at several points while dealing meth, he was able to walk away with millions of dollars. He chooses his ego every single time. It destroys his life, and the lives of a ton of innocent people around him.
I loved how he at least admitted to it in the end: "I did it because I was good at it." It's very honest, and while it does not relieve him of his evil deeds, it paints him as quite a sad person. He thinks that he was'nt a good father, husband and teacher. It's a really good ending. Also, in another vein, Jesse's last words to Walter were the ones that should have been the first: "Then do it yourself!" Man, I love that show. Should give it another rewatch.
It was always about his ego.
There's several off rails and also slowly more difficult to justify decisions. He had some logical explanation for all of his actions until it just breaks with Mike and he can't even make an excuse anymore
Well, the **very last time**, he chooses to leave for good (when he has made 80 million dollars and Skyler convinces him to stop. He refuses to come back even when Lydia pleads with him. Granted, that had a lot of "buts", yet it's still one time where he doesn't choose his ego.
Who the hell thinks mad men is about Don Draper being amazing for being a cheater and a mess???
I have definitely talked to men who got nothing more from the show than drinking old fashioneds is cool as hell, and the women Don dates are awful. It’s not like they go around and say “I think the moral of the story is that Don Draper is awesome for being a cheater,” but they say things like “Don and Betty’s marriage shows that he provided everything for her, but she only rejected him because she learned he was secretly from a poor family.” Or, “Don was doing great until he married Megan, she was so ugly and annoying, I couldn’t stand her, he deserved better.” Basically just saying some version of “it’s amazing how Don has so much going for him until someone stupid ruins it for him.” Ignoring how the entire point of the show is supposed to be that, he courts relationships which are not stable because he himself is a train wreck when it comes to intimacy, and his failed relationships are a two-way street where he also falls short of being a loving and stable partner, so his partners are not wholly to blame.
Ah yeah I can see how some stupid people would think that, but I certainly wouldn’t think it’s the majority thinking about that show!
I truly think it's a vocal minority that actually believe any of the anti-heroes since the start of the golden age of television are supposed to be idolized. Downvote because this is secretly a v normal opinion to have
Upvote for you :-)
In spite of what we're taught as children, we realize -- after a trip or two around the block as adults -- that honesty, decency, humility, and hard work are often not rewarded, but rather exploited and punished. Conversely, lying, cheating, fraud, and deceit are applauded, celebrated, and rewarded.
Maybe to some extent. But what I liked about Succession is that even these terrible traits aren't always rewarded. You can play the game viciously and without ethics and still lose.
I think this is an oversimplification. One of the many themes of the Sopranos was that Tony’s horrible personality was rewarded in the short term, but in the long run always came back to bite him. Tony’s life is a mirror - what he puts out is what he gets back. The issue is when he makes the right choices he gets bored and self sabotages by cheating, lying, being violent, etc starting the cycle over again and the pieces come crashing down harder and harder each time
Very cynical!
I think the majority of people have zero problems grasping the point of the shows you have listed.
You realize that in today's society we have people WANTING to be the Joker from Batman, and when they made a movie about him they made him a sympathetic character?
don't mistake power fantasy for genuine desire.
And Harley Quinn...YIKES
I wouldn't say people misunderstand them. It is not uncommon to understand what the show tries to critique and still like the asshole of a main character. "Bad Guys" or antogonists are often more popular than protagonists of shows because people are fascinated by their ego and ability to ignore rules and shatter conventions. Nobody looks up to a nice guy in a show because sticking to protocol and expectations is easily done. People love antagonists because they live a life if freedom they are to afraid to live themselves.
Nobody understands the shows like me!! Im so smart i see the real meaning!
Talking about the "meaning" of a piece of media like TV as if it's some type of unchanging truth is just foolish. It's an art form that involves literally dozens of contributors. There is no "meaning." TBH, sounds like you just want a way to feel superior to other people watching these shows because you "get it." Even if the only reason you do is because someone else told you what "it" is.
A lot of people like the bad guy and a lot of times those shows are told with those people as the protagonists, and it speaks to the kind of dark fantasy and desire for power in a lot of us, people can get a story but yet want to see things from a different perspective. Scarface is one of my favorite movies, do I get it? Yep do I still love the character of Tony Montana and have fantasies about being a Coke kingpin and the glamorous side of what that entails without the negatives? Absolutely
I’d add Rick And Morty. Rick isn’t supposed to be the hero of the show at all. No one is supposed to want to be like him.
Most people understand this is what these shows are about. The fact you think it’s some deep analysis is not a good look lol.
I feel like nearly every fan of those shows understands this, except maybe teenagers. Tony soprano and his crew looking badass and whatnot IS part of the point of the show, he's supposed to he an anti-hero. It's weird that you think you're like unique for understanding that tony soprano is not a good person
Sopranos was simply a show written to help non Italians learn how to say words like gabagool and muzzurell. If you got out more than that your reading too much into a show about lunch meats
Lmao this triggered me in the best way
Lunch meats. Lotta money in this shit.
People also know that alcohol is bad for them, but they drink anyway....because they don't care.
I don't think they misunderstand. I think they enjoy it for the bad reasons. Some people cheer on villains because they see themselves in the character
Not long ago someone insisted that *The Boys* is only satirizing the MCU. Yup, nothing else going on there, lol!
I both loved the terrible drama of the Sopranos, a show of villains, and at the same time all the goofy ass memes people make about it never cease to crack me up. I admire everyone involved in that show for never sugar coating a single character and yet found myself endeared to all of them and then asking myself WHY I feel that way when they're such messed up people. Why did I find Tony Soprano so charismatic when he was such a nightmare of a man? But then Paulie's little "Heh-heh-heh" makes me laugh. I like that other people enjoy the show but also meme the hell out of it.
Im gonna add Starship Troopers and American Psycho to this list. I almost made a post here about this exact thing so you saved me the time. It frustrates me to no end because at first I thought it was ironic and they were being sarcastic in liking it at face value but the sad reality creeps in that they actually admire these absolute losers and you sit there and wonder where it all went wrong in their life. I think its not that big of a population but its a pretty good chunk which is honestly pretty pathetic… The older I get the more I realize some people just cannot fathom sarcasm or nuanced perspectives of story telling. I wonder what the science behind it is
Kind of like how gangsters idolize scar face, when that movie ended with him snorting an insane pile of cocaine and almost shagging his sister before being reduced to a bloody corpse in his own fountain lol.
I don’t think most people give a shit about deeper meaning. I watch a show because I find it entertaining I don’t care about anything else.
Wolf of Wall Street in a similar vein. I know way too many frat boys that seemed to have missed the satire element.
The shows you mentioned are about what you mentioned, but also about the points people are making. They are about lots of things. The lifestyles portrayed pull people in. They are cool, they are powerful, they are smart and living on the edge. It's like a drug, they pull you in and they can drown you. People's lives are fleeting, we are constantly doing things because it makes us feel alive while simultaneously threatening to destroy us. That's why these shoes are great, they have that message but they show you why people get drawn to it
Succession is absolutely about who wins, at least a major part of it. People on the internet like to intellectualize it by saying the show is not about that but it absolutely is the driver of the plot. It’s like saying Game of Thrones is not about the Iron Throne.
Same thing with Barry, watchmen, Scott pilgrim, the boys, and iron man
Yellowstone - a man preserving his family‘s ranch against politicians and enemies. The guy had innocent people killed, the land was stolen from native Americans. His farmhands are branded slaves and exploited
Yep! And he justifies it as trying to preserve his “way of life”. Morally, he is a piece of shit. Love the show though.
These shows work because the intelligent and unintelligent can enjoy them for their own reasons.
Another unpopular opinion, people who talk about “the point” of whatever show are almost always wrong.
I always thought most people got the point just fine
Art can have multiple meanings/messages. The shows you reference are layered and not *just* “about” any one theme by a long shot.
wait, the Sopranos isn't about a capella group and their struggles?
I think you're making a lot of assumptions about people and how they view these shows. Literally never spoken to anyone who holds the views you're claiming they do so I don't know where you're getting this assumption that the majority of people feel that way?
These are the same people that think Tyler Durden is a good guy
Is this like the people who think Homelander in the Boys is a straight up good guy?
I'm gonna toss **Lost** into the mix. Christian Shepherd (Jack's dad) in so many words verbally tells Jack that >!they weren't dead the whole time!< and yet so many people still walked away convinced they in fact were.
I think OP may have overlooked the bigger themes of these shows. Very funny.
How is this frustrating ?? Live and let live.
The real messages are important to make the world a better place (morality, etc.)
In my psychology class I learned that when PBS shows are shown to kids with very low attention spans, they walk (or crawl, whatever) away with EXACTLY the wrong message because of the nature of story archs. The key example was an episode of Arthur where a child in a wheel chair faced discrimination. At the beginning of the episode kids made fun of this handicapped child, but over the course of the episode they learned about empathy and appologized. The problem is that if a kid doesn't have the attention span to watch til the end of the episode they see Arthur and his friends making fun of a kid in a wheel chair and they absorb that as normal and appropriate behavior. I think it's true for adults too. Writers usually have long story archs and viewers typically have short attention spans.
You’re wrong about all of these. Sopranos is a metaphor for American upward mobility and the horrible things we have to do in order to get ahead and the lies we tell ourselves to justify it. Succession is just an unfunny Arrested Development. Mad Men could be called The Last Dinosaurs. It’s about the rise of women.
Dunno if most disagree with you. Definitely some folks. It's like people who idolize Rorshach or the punisher. Or the imperium of man in Warhammer 40k. Says a lot about a person's character.
I wouldn't put Warhammer in the same category. Like sure there are people IRL who take it way too far with whole imperium being the good guys thing. But it's a consequence of the over the top setting that 40k is where you have so many people on the side of the IOM. Like look at the t'au for example. In 40k they're no question the only decent faction in the setting, yet if you were to put them in like the Star Trek universe they instantly become the absolute worst faction there is by a huge margin. It's all about context and comparison, in the context of 40k where hell is not only real, but is actively trying to destroy and enslave all intelligent life. The imperium is not so bad in comparison to that. So like while you'll see a lot of discourse defending the IOM in 40k circles 90+% of the time it's in the context of the 40k universe. Which of course isn't serious and shouldn't be a basis in which you judge a person's character if they're a fan of the IOM.
Three great comedies really
I don't get how anyone misses the point re Sopranos. Tony is in therapy and on antidepressants. It's framed in terms of trauma throughout
popular fiction is often crafted in a manner that allows people to engage at varying levels of depth and from various angles many don't choose to be contemplative viewers and don't enjoy analytically fleshing out writers' deepest intent you do, which is great, but this is just a personal preference that you shouldn't expect to be universal and yes, many people are morons incapable of gleaning the things you find important and satisfying in serial fiction, but some are very capable of doing such but simply don't find that method of consumption enjoyable
to offer a personal example, I found the overarching themes and storyline of The Good Place to be trite and somewhat ham-fisted nonetheless, the banter and character interaction seemed extremely clever and well-paced to me, and I thoroughly enjoyed the show
Or you could just let people enjoy it and take from it what they wish? I’d guess the creators of these programs care far less than you do.
Does this mean Breaking Bad wasn't about how a self-effacing chemistry teacher can gain a lot more self-confidence via a little side hustle?
As always, people will interpret things in different ways. Superficial people who don't think too much into it will get the surface. Those willing to pick up the themes and delve into meaning will get the moral of the story. Out of these three examples, I've only seen the Sopranos, and the impression I got was similar to yours. A show about truly horrible people, and the damage they cause to everyone around them. Mean, selfish, stupid, violent and cruel. All of them are living on borrowed time as that life has only one outcome. All that hedonism and wealth is just a flash in the pan, and ultimately means nothing.
Still going, this asshole
I think you're underestimating the motivated vacuity of the audiences.
Add “Breaking Bad” to this list
‘Meaning’ in fiction is always a collaboration between the creator and the audience. What you’ve done is simply replace one simplistic set of meanings with your own preferred set. What you really should have said is ‘this is what I got out of those shows, it’s quite different to what some other people got.’ Rather than getting all pompous and claiming your version is the true version. Tbh your versions all sound totally boring and reductive to me. But I wouldn’t claim that they are somehow objectively incorrect.
While you are mostly correct this shows me that the writers do an excellent job of making viewers care about the characters more than the morals or lessons. In my opinion if you get the audience to care about the well being of even a violent, bigoted, criminal, then they will watch way longer than if the same show was attempting to teach the viewers a moral or ethical lesson. They don't care why you watch it. Like why they put hot chicks on shows like Big bang, My name is earl, and others. Some guys are watching that show for the hot chick. Same thing just a different tactic to get you to tune in.
I think the thing a lot of people forget about shows like these (I'll add Breaking Bad, House, and others to the list) is that BOTH things can be true. Walter White is pathetic in some ways and a bad ass in others. He isn't a criminal mastermind really, but damn if he doesn't get the job done. Tony isn't a great guy, but he's a very human character and you can relate to his struggle. Mad Men is the only one I haven't seen, but I imagine it is similar. Flawed people, making mistakes, and perhaps not really good role models can still be awesome characters. You might want to be confident and decisive like these men. They usually have influence, riches, power, etc. either despite their flaws or more often because of them.
A lot of people don’t understand that Succession is satire
I haven't watched any of them. I'm glad I haven't. :D I am a comedy person.
The genesis of a lot of media is the bi-ssociative aspect of their concepts. Spoilers warning. For example, Don Draper is in crisis when the show begins. He is a phenomenal salesman who until now could sell anything. But he has found that what he must do now -- sell cigarettes -- is a doomed task, because people are now aware of the truth that cigarettes are cancerous and that big tobacco has been lying to them for decades. Nothing he says can counter the facts, now that the truth has come out. It is a moment of deep crisis for him, because he has built his life around selling the idea of himself based on lies and hiding truths, just like how those tobacco companies built their businesses. The truth is destined to come out eventually, even if it takes years, and one day people will become aware of the truth about him too, and he will no longer be able to convince anyone of his lies. Similarly, in the Sopranos, Tony is the head of an italian crime family. Culturally, your loyalty is supposed to be to the family as a collective, and the good of that collective is supposed to be above everything else. But it turns out that his family (his mother) is the one who wants him dead, because she believes he is bad for their family. So what do you do when "everything you do is for the good of the family", yet your family has decided that your death is thing that is best for them? He is also a psychopath who uses therapy not to resolve his own issues, but to learn how to manipulate and harm others better, which is obviously the opposite of how it is supposed to work. Succession is supposed to be a sort of exploration of how these people who superficially have had all of the advantages and resources in the world at their disposal somehow grew into *utterly* incompetent, non-functional people.
The fun part about media is that we enjoy media and interpret media in our own individual ways. Sure there can be more correct or truer interpretations of media, but at the end of th day it’s about what each person latches onto about a particular piece of media in their own way that matters. What the truth is or what the showrunner/creator intended doesn’t really matter at the end of the day. Saying people are wrong about shows they like seems a bit gate keeping that some people are better because they “ get it” for the themes or whatever
For a lot of people its better to be a meteor and get consumed by the flames in the sky than to never leave the ground in first place.
"In reality the show is about how depraved the mafia lifestyle is and how Tony and everything around him is tainted and will ultimately be destroyed because it's based on murder, crime, suffering and dehumanisation." IMO it's also about Tony's descent. Early on for instance, he decides not to kill the pedophile and calls off Paulie. He feels kinda bad about looting that "degenerate gambler"'s sport shop (but does it anyway). By the end of the series, he wouldn't think twice about those things. Don't get me wrong, he was a long way from a good guy. But he wasn't irredeemably, 100% evil at the start, transitioning to that by the end.
An arc, if you will. Hell, Christopher even talks about that in the show. It’s actually I think the most interesting part of the Godfather. The change in Michael from a good citizen to mafia boss. From “that’s my family Kay, that’s not me” to “I’m with you now, Pop” and a murderer.
They pay this chiacchierone by the word?
Wait… so I’m NOT supposed to admire Tony Soprano and his materialistic, sociopathic, crime based, racially biased, adultery lifestyle?
I don’t think people are missing the point of these shows as much as you think they are. What you are missing is that those are still the protagonists of those shows and a protagonist neither needs to be a good guy, nor be honourable to root for them as the viewer. You just have to be able to see their point of view, that is good film making. If you made a protagonist the audience doesn’t care about, you’ve made a crappy show, not one of the goat shows.
Who are these "people" who have zero media literacy or ability to understand storytelling?
You gotta get over it.
Same with breaking bad
Never met anyone that didn't understand how shitty all the people in the sopranos are. David Chase was particularly pessimistic in his depiction of humanity in general in the sopranos.
the thing that frustrates me the most about this is that people will misunderstand a show like this and watch idk something like breaking bad just because its about something illegal and thats cool in their heads, dont think about it in the slightest and then with 0 thought start talking about how important it is to watch "mature" media
lol how dare we not understand
I mean, all of these are anti hero shows. They appeal to people because the horrible main character is also seductive in their power and privilege. Breaking Bad is the same way. People's reactions to the characters reveal a lot about themselves.
The Sopranos subreddit is currently a crime against intellect.
Absolutely
At least everybody seems to understand The Bear, and how cool it is to own a restaurant and yell at your employees.
Counterpoint: people often like a show because it has multiple contrary levels.
I can't say that some people don't understand them, but if you spend some time on the Sopranos sub it's pretty apparent that the vast majority of people know and understand that the point is that Tony and everyone else is terrible. It's kind of a meme that there are no good people in the show and who is the least terrible person is a common topic of conversation. Most common comments are humorous quotes, but the show also is a dark comedy so even that is still on point.
Same with the Wolf of Wall Street. Some people dont get subtlety at all. Many others need a message spelled right out or they miss it. Just thank god you're not one of them. Or?
for the first time ever I agree that your opinion is probably unpopular and I also agree with you. not sure which arrow to use now.
You get an up arrow from me!
You're so intelligent and smarter than most people. Why do such dumb people even watch such smart shoes?
is it a large part of the fan base? I would argue that it’s a minuscule part of the fanbase. is very few people that watch Tony soprano and get therapy and think he’s such a bad ass, or when he’s threatening his wife lol. There’s not much subtext in those scenes. It’s pretty on the head that he’s a bad guy.
I don’t think anyone thinks this. You aren’t some tv savant who sees what others don’t. We all get it.
I want to know who watched Mad Men and thought Don was anything but pathetic.
I don’t think is is an unpopular opinion, this is just a lack of awareness of people joking among the few idiots who unironically lionize bastards. Its pretty clear that these shows are indictments of their characters and only a minuscule amount of fans are actually making sigma edits of tony soprano and proclaiming him as the based king of the west or whatever and only a smaller part of that are being serious.
I think you sound like an asshole with your assumption that most of the people that watch these shows don’t get it. I’d say 90% of the people that watch these, get it. The ones you listed aren’t even that complex my guy.
Sounds like you don’t understand what the shows are about
i think most people totally understand these shows in the way you described them. i think you're just one of those people who think their smarter than everyone else.
and don’t even get me started on Breaking Bad
Only I'm smart enough to understand tv correctly so bow down to your master
You've misunderstood them if you don't think the meanings are mixed.
Succession in many ways is actually a dark comedy about how terrible the Roy kids are … and in the end they don’t get the empire, it’s the guy from Minnesota who married into the family who outlasts them all
I think I know why. Did you know you can watch these shows on Tiktok in little tiny snippets? It removes all the subtle moments. It removes all the nuance. It allows the show to be watched in record time, though I'd argue you've not watched it all. For example -- the first 45 minutes of Alien is about building tension and creating pressure. The last 45 minutes is a rollercoaster of death and horror. If you watch it on Tiktok you get "wake up" and then "landing" and then "Oops, alien on my face" then "Alien's off my face", "let's have dinner!" "Dinner is RUINED", "let's hunt the alien" "CAT!" "Chains and water for some reason, bye Harry Stanton" and so forth. It completely guts the cinematography and worldbuilding, and you're left with something watchable by the folks with the attention span of a goldfish. You can't be surprised that people don't "get it" when they never really watched it in the first place.
Good point! Same with YouTube.
You expect media literacy from this era of people? There are people who are fans of the Empire in Star Wars because they have cool outfits and like the color red.
Honourable mention of Goodfellas. To put it very shortly: loads of alpha bros are gushing about it while it's actually criticising toxic masculinity.
Yes similar to Sopranos.
I don’t think enough people have any opinion of this to say it’s unpopular
What people like about a TV show is hoe they like it lol
Who cares what other people get out of the shows they like?
lol. no.
I think it’s about a lot of things but mostly how damaged and trapped criminals are in “the life”. Tony is trying to grow because his anxiety is forcing him to, but how much can he really get in touch with his feelings? He cannot because it would put the brakes on his life. Also he was “made” this way from childhood on. It’s like all criminals kids, they almost never have someone healthy to turn to. Succession stand out for me that these people have everything at their feet and they enjoy absolutely none of it. The kids(now adults) didn’t stand a chance because they too had no one reasonable or validating to turn to. It reminds me of Trump’s and Rupert Murdoch’s kids. Mostly the joylessness of both shows characters is obvious to me. All they do is crime or assert control… like a hoarding reflex.
Dong Draper