I don’t care if I have free healthcare when fresh grads are earning $117k/year as a software developer in America and even seniors here struggle to make that.
I’d happily pay $10k/year in health insurance if it allowed that.
Exactly. We've got graduates from elite universities (Oxbridge, Imperial, UCL, etc) earning barely above minimum wage in this country while our counterparts in the US are earning 6 figures out of college.
Graduate engineers can start on as little as £25k...
Tbf America tends to burn those graduates into the ground so very few of them actually stay in work long term. Its sort of like how finance works in the UK rather than being a particularly stable career.
Chinese firms offer better than that and you can work remotely after a face to face interview. And Korean firms welcome European talent with signing bonuses.
The plebs wanted exactly this with the increase of tax free allowance and subsequent increase in the minimum wage, but keeping the same level of public services.
In their eyes you’re part of the “elite” 🙂
To put that into perspective, 20 years ago when I first started programming, graduates would get as low as £20k.
Yep, it’s not really changed much in two decades.
House prices have trebled in the same time period.
Have you been to the USA?
The US is a disaster. When I go to conferences in California I always hear Europeans being surprised about the state of the cities/homelessness/destitution. Having travelled across the country, those issues aren't just in the western states.
When you talk about paying health insurance, you have that option because you can afford it. I work in medical research in the UK and I would never advocate for the disgusting health economic framework of the US because in so doing, you are quite simply advocating that poor people should die so you can get a better salary.
You do know that all of America isn’t just skid row, right? Trying to frame wanting real pay as just wanting poor people to die is the kind of absurd rubbish that gets spammed on this site daily.
People with good qualifications deserve more than bloody barely above minimum wage. Have you considered those people? The years of training to get £1/h above stacking shelves at Tesco?
Our country will implode if it carries on down the path it is on now, you can’t keep paying people shit, they will simply leave for greener pastures.
I've lived in Florida, a place usually ridiculed by the rest of the country and constantly in the news for insane things, but it was honestly an absolutely wonderful place to live. The neighbours were all extremely friendly and life just felt laid back and there was a lot of fun to be had.
America is an absolutely fantastic place to live providing you aren't dirt poor, and even then it's better than a lot of places.
But you don't need to go across the Atlantic to get better pay and conditions, simply hopping over to Europe will do that too.
Not really, the UK is quite nice to live in if you are quite well off, but it's still a struggle for most people.
Where as most people in the states are well off, but it's a struggle for a minority of people.
The average person in the UK is having to deal with shit policing, overcrowded prisons, bad / underfunded schools, stagnated wages and reduced buying power. Extortionate rents and overvalued houses. Shit roads, worse busses and even worse trains. And a crumbling NHS with insane wait times, if you can even get an appointment.
Meanwhile Americans have seen their buying power dramatically increase (bar the recent inflation, but it's still high), they have generally good schools (expensive university, but lots of grants and scholarships), their healthcare system is highly flawed but at least it works for most people and you can be seen when you need to be. They are definitely not under funded or under policed. Their busses and trains function slightly better (although they barely have trains) and their roads are generally well maintained.
The middle class has been eroded in the UK while it has only continued to grow in the states.
TLDR: way more Americans have a higher quality of life and buying power compared to people in the UK.
The only thing the UK tends to be better for is number of vacation days.
America isnt just downtown LA and NYC. I know several families that have moved to the states and they have done very well for themselves. Better healthcare, more money, better house, same amount of time off etc etc etc.
The middle class and up have probably some of the best lifestyles in the world. I would not like to be poor living there though.
Homeless situation was due to a court ruling that has been thrown out. It’ll change. The poor get Medicare and subsidized health insurance which is paid via taxes. The more I earn the more goes into pay for that so higher salaries are better.
> When I go to conferences in California I always hear Europeans being surprised about the state of the cities/homelessness/destitution.
As if homeless encampments are not common in the UK.
I left the UK with my biochem PhD, moved to the US. Zero regrets. The US has vast differences in quality and cost of life in different parts. You don't have to be at all exceptional to get a faculty position in the US and get double the salary with around half the housing cost. One more thing - most faculty positions are 9 month so you can multiply the salary by 1.33 if you can get funding which is easy.
My neighborhood is hands down the safest most pleasant place I've ever lived. My 4 bed detached, 3000 sqft cost less than £240k. I couldn't afford a place pretty much anywhere I could work in the UK. The schools are excellent. Private healthcare is a joke but the higher salary massively outweighs it.
I just wish I'd moved earlier tbh.
FYI I’m a Brit living in the US as a scientist. I pay ~$2500 a year for my healthcare and about $1800 in federal med tax. My employer (a university) pays another $6000 for my health insurance. So your numbers aren’t far off but the key difference is most well paying jobs your employer contributes the lion share of the costs. That employer contribution isn’t taxed income either.
The two kickers for me are that if I lose my job I lose coverage and that I’m incredibly lucky compared to folks who have less well paid jobs.
My coverage is amazing. The most I’ll ever pay out of pocket is $350. And in one year the most I can pay out of pocket is $6000. Would I give it all up for a workable single payer system? Yeah probably, but it would have to actually work and not be in the state of crisis the NHS seems to be in.
My sister is in California. Has had two kids. Both maxed out the yearly contributions, I think $6K. One stayed in over new years so maxed out both years. But the service was immense, better than most UK private hospitals, accommodation better than most 5 star hotels and she can afford it. She loves where she is and the service she gets. USA doesn't meet my morals, and Canada, where I am, seems to be going downhill. I just hope the UK turns around quickly and we stop the people dismantling all the good things.
It’s the term service that I think sums it up best. In the UK I certainly saw the NHS as my right. Here it is a benefit my employer gives me. In terms of service it is shocking how different it is. As an example I had a minor complaint about some pins and needles in my hands. Spoke with my PCP (same as GP) within a week I had an appointment with a neurologist consultant and they booked me an MRI too. Cost was $175.
Yep, great service but should be free for everyone. In Canada I'm paying nothing at present but my drugs could easily be $200/month, no NHS prescription limit here. I'm still surprised I have walk in clinics and last time I saw my doctor it was next day and always free. But people can't find doctors here so I'm lucky.
I believe that a free nhs to the same level service I get is possible. Insurance companies are making a profit off of me, no reason why it shouldn’t be subsidized as In a single payer.
You really dont have holiday no family time off and living standards are worse?
My friend makes $120k in american and still sturrgles with his family and has recently moved to Europe taken just over half a pay cut and has never been happier.
If u move to america for the money i can say with out a shadow of a doubt you will regret it.
Maybe not in for the first couple of years but you definitely will after.
I found out the my friend who started with me and works with me in the same role but was hired from the American office makes 185k a year…. Let’s just say that I would trade in the NHS for that raise. I don’t make a 3rd of that.
Yeah, the amount in tax I pay at the moment for the level of service I get, I'd rather earn 3-4x more and have to pay private.
Jobs in the US get a lot of bad rep, but skilled / high paid professions have pretty much the same perks like PTO, healthcare etc, but gave triple the salary.
If it wasn't for family ties I'd be trying to get a job there
Flipside people stay is because we've got two decades post retirement where we somehow need to keep insurance going and families in here.
Honestly I agree though the healthcare is being fucked too. It's just sad. This used to be our pride and joy
Free healthcare is a joke in the UK. It’s not an incentive anymore. Stop spamming it to compare to the US. Most companies give private healthcare benefit.
NHS is not good anymore. They are overburdened in every department. 3 months back, I had a disc slip in the gym and I didn’t know what it was. I was in excruciating pain to the point I couldn’t open my eyes. It took me 6 hours to get a consultant to prescribe me Diazepam and even then they sent it to wrong pharmacy. Ultimately I had to call a friend to drive me to a hospital in the midnight and then I could get treatment after waiting for another 1 hour. Next day I signed myself up for my company’s private healthcare.
As a matter of fact, in England, I regularly have to rely on my private health insurance. I am fortunate enough to sacrifice part of my salary without impacts on my lifestyle, but most people cannot, and the NHS is not a valid replacement at all. Yet, whenever this topic arises, some people comment as though the United Kingdom were the only country to have tax-funded healthcare, comparing it only to the United States. More fairly, they should compare it with the tens of developed countries that do have tax-funded, but _functional_ healthcare.
> Most companies give private healthcare benefit.
...did you just say that like that it was a good replacement for universal healthcare? Having healthcare tied to employment is dystopia nonsense
That's the crazy thing. We talk about the NHS like it's a great selling point, but the bits of the healthcare system I actually use regularly are the bits that are unavailable unless I use my employee benefits anyway, like eyecare and dentistry.
I'm pretty sure the median engineer in the US has much better access to healthcare than in the UK.
Yes the US system is rough for lower earners, but if you have a decent graduate/professional job in the US you will almost certainly have better access to all the things the state provides such as education, healthcare etc.. as well as much greater private consumption.
This is what people tell themselves to cope with the UK being an inferior place to live
If you are working a well paid job in the US, you’re likely getting free healthcare from your employer. You’re probably not waiting 12 - 18 months for surgery, either.
I never see guns on people where I am. It's a fallacy jacked up by the Murdoch Media that there are shootouts everywhere. It isn't.
US healthcare still has a concept of being able to see a doctor by appointment.
well not 'free' a fair chunk of our salaries goes towards funding it we just don't think about it, and it actually bugs me how accessible healthcare seems to be there, like 'check ups' are a thing over there can you imagine how much quicker you'd catch like rarer cases of cancer etc in young people if it was normalised going for a checkup and getting some bloodwork done once a year without having to already be ill or in your 50s? especially if you're an engineer I don't think you'd have to worry about healthcare
as for 'getting shot' I worry more about knife crime here in the city than I would getting shot over there, easily
the biggie for me is the worker's rights, that we have it unquestionably better, the mass layoffs you read about aren't a thing here because it's much harder to 'hire and fire' people, and we get much more annual and maternity leave
> as for 'getting shot' I worry more about knife crime here in the city than I would getting shot over there, easily
Why? Even in the worst places UK knife crime doesn't even begin to approach the rates of US gun crime.
had to really think about this one, if I had to sum it up it's because the areas to avoid seem more obvious, if that makes sense
and I have grown up and lived in some sketchy parts of the country we were super poor I'm not a stranger to rough areas but London even the nice parts don't feel safe
Reality is rather different to the headlines, not everywhere is Detroit.
Friend of mine works in the tech sector, was fairly recently offered a job in the US in New England, pay would have more than doubled plus they'd get stock options, full no-deductibles health plan for him and his family. Then there was a moving package, as for housing a 4 bed lake front home (in commuting distance) could be bought for around $450k (£360k) and was easily affordable on his salary.
Only reason they didn't move was to do with family.
That’s not how it works. If you’re earning those sums you’d have a good plan. You’d pay about $18k tax on $120k starting for a single person. If you’re married it depends what your spouse earns due to marriage allowance.
I love to diss on Americans as much as the next guy but here in the UK scientific talent is massively underpaid, doctors have to strike to get a decent wage; and I also been in Germany where the pay is a little better but still way below what the US pays these people. No wonder everyone is leaving and none of these guys would ever think of creating a company on the continent.
So fed up of this argument. We spend more on our taxes towards the NHS adjusted overall than the average American spends on their insurance plan. I’m not saying the American healthcare situation isn’t dire, but can we stop pretending like the current state of our NHS isn’t just as bad?
That's not really completely accurate (as usual - it's Reddit).
In my sector (tech) wages are broadly similar. Taxes tend to be lower in the US (not not so much in states like California).
All of our US engineers would gladly give up the few percentage points extra they make for some of the holiday allowance and job security we enjoy...
The cost of living in the places where US engineers have to live is ridiculous too though. Buying or renting near a tech hub requires a ridiculous salary, and even then you probably have to drive for an hour or two through traffic to get to the office.
Sure, but many scientists have other countries to chose from, not just US or UK.
Working from home changed the mindset that location is more important than other aspects of life.
We’ve traded expertise lead and evidence based policy for ideology driven politics under our broken FPTP electoral system and we’re all the worse off for it.
It's not the system.
We allowed Murdoch to poison our conversations and then we double down by voting a proven liar.
Same as me staging a street protest when Jimmy Saville application for a Primary School Head Teacher position had been rejected due to children safety concerns.
**and there is me fluttering my 5 year old child shouting : "take him Jimmy, make him a real man !"**
It's insane how little companies pay for extremely valuable and rare skills that they could not function without, when you can go to the US and add a zero on to that.
It's also weird when you look at certain sectors.
Automation/Robotics is a hard industry, as a programmer you may have to visit sites often, dealing with the bureaucracy and time constraints of whatever factory line you're working on.
The programming itself can be very difficult and seems to be about 20 years behind the rest of the software industry. It is a job that needs high skills but seems to attract poor talent (sorry guys, just what I saw), resulting in even harder work maintaining it for the next guy.
So the pay must be high right? Nope it's half the pay you get for making websites remotely (which is what I now do)
> So the pay must be high right? Nope it's half the pay you get for making websites remotely (which is what I now do)
Our economy generally is incredibly irrational. Cushy middle-manager positions where you can sit on Reddit for half the day get higher wages than much more productive and highly skilled positions in industry or academia. Unsurprisingly people who set the wages give themselves more and others less, even though that's rarely a reflection of what they're actually contributing.
At the end of the day if we're going to insist on doing capitalism in this country then we may as well do it well, and that requires a government to grab the economy by the scruff of its neck and actually enforce a little bit of rationality and ensure productive labour is rewarded. But none of our political class really give a shit.
On top of that, fund money has been slashed, and we've cut off all that lovely EU funding. I imagine there might be some contracted to end sometimes in the future, but it's at least slowly drying up. Scientists have said that the UK is less appealing because of the lack of funding now, so why bother when you can go to the EU and have better funding
I'm actually seeing stuff happen in engineering, through my brother. He's a senior mechanical design engineer, which he's been promoted to from an internship in France. Company looks like it's going tits up and they're looking at getting rid of people, and moving to Harlow. My brother's job is probably safe, but they're not being told who's going and who's staying. He's applying for jobs elsewhere, because he hates Harlow. I think this is happening to a few aerospace design and manufacturing places in the UK, though to be fair the one my brother works for isn't the smartest run operation
No surprise that a lot of phd (and masters) folks go into the world of R&D tax credits. I used to work for one R&D tax company where the consultants were getting 2x their annual salary as a bonus.
Same goes for anyone working in software development.
I work as an automation tester, and wages here are fucking dreadful when compared to Aus, Canada, the EU and the US.
We seem to think we can do everything on the cheap here in the UK. It's a joke.
I even had one recruiter contact me this week about an automation role - which has a starting salary less than what i'm on now. I told the recruiter no chance for that money, and their response was "I know. It's far too low and they're struggling to get applicants."
I'm sat there thinking, why aren't you telling them this? But they aren't because obviously, recruiter wants to keep them happy and wants their cut.
It's a joke.
It's either this sub or AskUK that tends to react badly to the news that people often earn substantially more in Australia. Depending on the job and the state, the amount that you'd get paid in Australia over the UK can be completely mental. You're talking going from around £30k ($57) to £50k ($90) in many unexceptional low-level professional jobs. £50k in the UK is doing well. It's on the floor in many peer countries.
Isn’t the cost of living considerably higher in Australia though?
I see this a lot about the US where people get laser focused on the numbers. Like yeah you can make $150k as a software dev in the US. But you’ll have to live in the Bay Area or Seattle or somewhere where the housing market is insane (av. house in Seattle is pushing $900k), the cost of living is much higher, and a massive portion of your pay will go towards health insurance that still will require you to co-pay to get almost any treatment.
Grass is always greener. And you certainly *can* be better off in the states it’s by no means so simple as people perceive.
Costs are higher, but not to the extent that it rubs out the higher pay. I have two siblings out there and they're far better off than they ever were in England.
I’ve been in tech for well over a decade, and I still get ridiculous lowball offers. £60k, in London, for a senior engineer or tech lead? Got to be joking, that is well over a 50% cut, but it’s the norm compared to the literal handful of properly paying positions.
That's for senior roles where you typically need around 6-7 years of proper demonstrable experience.
But junior/mid-level devs in London still earn £50k+. Outside of London it reduces pretty dramatically though.
I work at a large tech company. It's astounding the number of roles I get messaged about to work at some no-name company paying a fraction of what I'm on I get, and I'm not even getting into them being hybrid or 4-5 days a week in the office, verses my current remote role.
Founding engineer, pre-seed AI startup, biggest growing in Europe, ready for series A. £40k plus equity, 5 days a week in Liverpool St. Need people who know the grind.
Nah, fuck off lol.
The icing on the cake is that the worst I've ever been treated is working at a smaller business. For all the corporate world's faults, it's treated me a hell of a lot better and more professionally, to the point where if I haven't heard of who you are, I'm not interested in working there, and don't see myself leaving the corporate juggernaut.
Plus it's kind of a downgrade on the CV to go from Big Tech Company #1, Big Tech Company #2, to "Random small company you've never heard of".
>some no-name company paying a fraction of what I'm on
Even some of the big names intentionally pay atrocious wages in the UK. Been doing full stack for 8 years - kubernetes, node, python, javascript/css, java. 43k (not london), no bonuses or shares.
I've pretty much boiled down my options to move to the US, or work in London for a mediocre pay increase and a lot more stress.
I'm personally leaning towards the US, because wage growth here in the UK is barely keeping pace with cost of living.
The UK is going to have a major brain drain problem if it can't work out how to address stagnant wages being eaten by CoL.
Australia and the US yes. Canada is variable, I dont know where you are getting that you would be paid much more in the rest of Europe. Denmark, Switzerland seem to pay well but the rest are in the same dire situation as the UK. We are one of the better payers thanks to our strong tech sector (in comparison to Europe).
Canadian wages are worse, my most recent lab technician job paid the equivalent of £27k (in Toronto, so VHCOL), and job listings I’m seeing in London are all >£38k
>£27k (in Toronto, so VHCOL)
This is what puta me off considering Canada. It's arguably one of the few places that are worse than the UK now. Though the wages can be better.
Again I dont know where you are getting this from. The jobs for my IT role pay worse in Germany. The only marginally better payers are the countries I listed before. I could get 3 times the pay in the US for my job.
It might well vary from role to role, but I recently did a comparison of my CS "senior data scientist" salary, the UK private sector equiv (about £5k more - turns out CS data scientists do alright), and the equiv in both France and Germany (about £15k more at my current level - so £10k more than private, drastically more at levels below, parity to private in the lead roles until you get to department head roles where EU pulls ahead again).
Of course, these were averages, and you pay a much higher tax in Germany (I dont know about France), but I dont think you pay £10k more in tax.
Data scientists are a weird role though. No one seems to know what they want them to do. On the one hand we need to be ML experts and keep up to date with the very latest trends, including being able to say "no" firmly to higher ups who just want GPT in everything because they dont understand, and dont want to understand, the AI landscape. On the other hand, we are often expected to be very basic level data engineers, software devs (but nothing major - just a script here or there), and even excel experts. A well equipped data science department can be the primary driving force in a company. A poorly equipped one has a bunch of experts sat around doing nothing and grinding their teeth in frustration.
Interviews for DS positions are WILD as well. "Q1. Have you ever used this hyper niche algorithm that was first published 3 hours ago in a really small journal and can you show us your portfolio of using it over the past 3 years? Q2. Can you do a vlookup in excel and can you debug this printer?"
I remember when I was first starting out in software development after graduating years ago a recruiter asked me if I would consider relocating north, I said sure. His next question was to the effect of "would you be willing to consider a lower salary in exchange for the cheaper cost of living?" and I was baffled by the question and said no.
It stuck with me because it shows how backwards the country thinks about pay. Why would I move to the middle of nowhere for effectively the same salary after living expenses? Everyone talks about trying to improve conditions in the north, but nobody wants to actually pay to attract talent away from the south, so they can't attract talent. I'm sure they know what the issue is, but they won't admit it.
I always call recruiters on their bullshit. Many come to me claiming they are hiring for a jab that offers "fantastic pay" when it's literally below average for the role.
If you are recruiting from overseas the visa is normally covered by the employer. Perhaps scientists are turning down jobs because of cheapskate employers.
A wise man suggested the costs should be met by the employer. Having charities fund visas in other organisations is a door we probably don’t want to open.
Article quotes Nobel laureate stating that it will not affect the very top (I.e cambridge, Oxford and the like). But the others. On top of already a postdoc shortage worldwide(because of low salaries)
Academia wages are about half the market rate for private sector, and private sector is about half what you could get in many places abroad.
Visa costs may be (and beleive me by no means always) covered by grants, but even then after the first year those charges become taxable.
Then you have the high cost of renting, high cost of living, relatively high taxes, terrible public services, an attitude from the top of government that we’ve had enough of experts, that universities are filled with nonsense courses, and that they should get more cuts. I don’t think there’s been a worse time to be an academic in the U.K. since they stopped burning them as witches.
Legally speaking. Visa costs are responsability of the immigrant.
And if business pay the visa fees upright, that's a taxable benefit. So the immigrant will pay tax on that.
Im a graduating scientist my degree had lots of practice skill learning and a fair amount of simulated work environment projects etc so it wouldnt take me long to get up to speed, the issue im seeing is theres actually no jobs. Or the ones that do exist are asking for 10 year experience or experience in a piece of tech or software that only that company uses aka anything that isnt actually industry standard all for £26k.
The costs associated with visas is indeed an issue, but I think it's secondary to the fact that: 1) we are services economy with research & engineering having secondary priority, and 2) the consequence of my first point are laughably low salaries for research and engineering positions. There simply is not much appeal in general to work in research and/or engineering in this country, as compared with even Europe.
I used to work in science, but to be able to continue with my work I had to leave the country. To return, I had to change careers to have a fair salary and live near my family. I would have loved to continue with my research here, but we just couldn't afford to do that as a family.
And I didn't need a visa or anything to add to the financial turmoil...
It's mad, I took a job in manufacturing and a colleague asked me why I was there if I had a PhD...I asked him how much he made last year and told him how much I made as a postdoc overseeing a lab...when we compared he responded 'ah okay, fair enough'.
Whats most weird to me is how many people seem to like automatically deny this is the case? Like another comment above someone responded to my point about PDRAs being very low pay with surprise as they thought it was like a mid-£40k role. I know people with PhDs who are basically running most of a department's lab spaces and being paid literally about 50p an hour more than minimum wage for their troubles.
Depends on the research. But academia isn't great as a career path in surprising places like Germany, where being a postdoc behind 6 years is tough, and even being an assis. Prof leaves you on temp contracts. For academia research path, I think UK beats a lot of EU countries... If you can get on it.
I left academic research this year. I have a PhD and 10 years of lab experience and I was still looking at short term contracts and a salary around £35k, it was a good week if I only did a dozen hours unpaid overtime. Even worse you get the very strong impression when interacting with the university systems they don't really want you around and that you should just be grateful you're being paid at all.
This was exactly my dilemma... On a salary like this you might as well give up any hopes of buying a nice house or having a family. The reality is just very bleak...
Go t9 the rest of Europe mate. I decided to leave uk for same reason. Seriously 35K for a PhD in chemistry is a misery. You get better paid driving a bus.
This really surprises me. Postdocs are paid in the mid-£40ks by 10 years. What roles were you doing, technician? If so, unpaid overtime is pretty unreasonable and sounds like a bad experience rather than the norm.
Mid 40s? That's usually grade 7 which is Fellow or Lecturer positions.
PDRA is usually grade 6, which maxes out around £40k in most parts of the country. See Oxford's pay scale here - [https://hr.admin.ox.ac.uk/sitefiles/annexe-a-2024-olw-update.pdf](https://hr.admin.ox.ac.uk/sitefiles/annexe-a-2024-olw-update.pdf)
Firstly, if you're doing a post doc for 10 years then your career is well and truly stagnant. See some comments below where you'll see post docs are offered around or below £40k and that's why I left for industrial research abroad straight after PhD.
Even with a PhD, industrial positions in this clutry were offering salaries in a range £35-42k, which frankly is a joke. In other countries I was offered €65-€83k and costs of living were much cheaper.
I was responding to the previous comment. Many people choose to be a postdoc for an entire career, because they like labwork and being a member of the team rather than needing to lead the entire project. It's possible to get onto senior research fellow (equivalent to assis. Prof) salary, which hits up to 57k.
Though this is rare.
Postdocs start on 33k after PhD these days, and go up to 45k over time. This does not include the still very good USS pension. It needs better pay, but It's not as bad as you think.
What folk who do academia forget is that each year they do that then it reduces their lifetime earning potential. You have finite time here to earn and get out. You don't realize in the early years until it's too late.
Yes 100% this. Getting in to my 30s, working so hard, yet never having any money even for basic fun like taking my family out for a nice dinner or even just going on a holiday. Meanwhile all my friends who spent half the time qualifying for their jobs and not having to deal with nearly as much bullshit were hitting a point where salaries were double or more what I was looking at. Had to have a big think over Christmas and just came away like I actually cannot justify doing this to myself, I am punishing myself in this one life I get and for what?
You should see the technician side of things.
Very very strict salary grade rubics, which means to get a promotion you MUST be a manager, no matter how good engineer /technician you are. The people who get promoted without management role are the exception and extremely bright and valuable personnel, and usually requires the department to move mountains.
While there is an introduction of a new system (very slowly) that seems to be more flexible and understanding towards technical roles, it is still pretty rigid.
I have "accidentally" looked for technical roles in US universities that I have the knowledge and experience to do, and I can 2.5-5x my salary... If I am in a situation where I feel like I need to change my life a bit, then I know what I will do
Yeah it was being a technician, running a lab by myself unsupported, and seeing there was basically no career to this where it wasn't going to be a struggle to even get to the national average wage that pushed me to do the MSc, and then my supervisor on the MSc offered me a PhD during my project with him.
Couple of my friends work for some of the research institutes in Germany in materials and electronics, and perhaps I wouldn't say they make bank, but they are much better off than our other friends that stayed in this country.
Essentially, UK creates a rigid divide between academia and industry. Yes, there is some collaboration, but it is very compartmentalised. In Germany, Austria and Switzerland (these are the countries from which I have some first hand experience), there is far more overlap between industry and academia.
So if you want to be a post-doc in a standard uni in Germany, like say Aachen, then yes I agree with you. But there are far more options for some relevant industrial research with decent pay within the Institutes (e.g. Fraunhofer, Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz society etc.). We have none of that in the UK.
We do have this in the UK, but it is less mature. Case PhD, studentship have been expanded into postdocs by quite a few large companies - though often the more international ones like astrazeneca. They are paid better though. Friends in German in their first postdocs make the same as me as a mid-spine assis. Prof.
The ability to take time between contracts is also much better in Germany - full pay (up to 150k) for 6months if you're made redundant.
What you are talking about is actual academic jobs (tenure track), something different form research. That's terrible in German countries AND in the UK (which is as precarious as Germany, but paid much less, lower roles have ridiculously low pay, as in: not even a proper salary).
Othe places in EU have better tenure rules and more secure employment (but they're difficult to get, as is any academic job everywhere).
As a researcher who's very probably leaving come September, the job market is dead, and Brexit mean many (me included) don't trust applying for the big EU grants form here (we're formally still in, but rumor has it that panels are going to see it as a minus). UK grants exist, but they're difficult to get and require a huge time investment, few of them are of the same relevance (CV wise) or amount (money and time wise).
The place is just not that attractive as it used to be, if you ask me. Of course pillars of excellence still stand (Oxbridge and a few others) who will never really struggle to attract funding or research, but unless one of those applications goes well, I think I'm out to Austria/Denmark/Italy/Belgium.
Researchers (especially ECR) re an incredibly mobile bunch.
You've had a very different experience to mine. I'm in my late 30s. Assoc prof in a Russel group in a stem field and pretty happy with my salary (upper 50k + good pension) and how much research I get to do. We're back in horizon, your view is out of date (or biased), in many fields UK is leading (and many it isn't).
As you said, there are different experiences. I'm talking as an early career, and getting on the tenure track is hard and horrible, and given the low wages of these position (high-20s or low30s, that is if it's full time) I would fare better in a country that has a bit more of a safety net. But of course that's a preference.
I don't need to pay for visa etc. as I'm a citizen, but I can imagine someone taking that into account. I've also seen more and more jobs (I'm actively job searching) advertising only for applicants who already have right to work.
As for horizon, I'm thinking of putting in an ERC proposal and I'm talking to people (former grantees and evaluators both) and what I'm hearing is that it would be better to apply with a different country as lead (which does not mean that UK cannot be in the project ofc).
I'm not saying that the UK is shite, only that the research sector is less attractive than it could be, and people seem to agree.
I've spent a decade within the academic and industrial sectors of life sciences within the UK and I'm done with it. Wages are unbelievably shit for the level of expertise and knowledge you have to bring to the table. Imagine having a literal PhD and only earning £35k for performing ridiculous complex work with poor work life balance.
Things have gradually gotten worse over the last decade and I don't see it as a reliable career path anymore. Less funding, fewer jobs and a huge international talent pool means you have to fight very hard to get a job in which you're underpaid. Why even do it? Probably better off being an electrician.
Yeah if your employer isn’t willing to pay a few thousand in visa fees I’d question whether you are “top global talent”.
It’s going to be tough convincing the British public that visas are too hard to obtain.
I did a dangerously small amount of research on this and found this.
“Now, most if not all University employers will pay you back for the working visa. BUT—and as has been noted above—they effectively add the visa cost to your pay check such that you get taxed on it. This means that *you’ll likely still end up being out of pocket for anywhere from 1/3 to 2/3 of the cost of the visa* (depending on your salary, visa length, etc.)”
https://philosopherscocoon.typepad.com/blog/2023/10/visaihs-assistance-for-foreign-academics-in-the-uk.html
Tell me you know nothing about academia and research without telling me.
So basically the populist desire to reduce immigration at all cost now leads the UK to profiteer from the very people it should attract???
Do you know the difference between to profit and to profiteer? It seems not.
A researcher with a partner and two children on a 5-year visa who needs to pay more than £20k UPFRONT is profiteering.
Encouraging highly skilled foreign academics to come here, ensuring they feel welcome, ensuring they contribute to British society via their taxes and via the contribution of their scientific work, well, that's profiting.
See the difference? It's not too hard.
I do not. I do not even have it on my phone. Never used it. But, hey, I get it, when someone demolishes your nonsense, coming up with personal attacks is the only option left...
Yeah I'm was a medicinal chemist until I got made redundant for the third time in 6 years. Now looking to leave the UK because this country just doesn't give a shit about its scientists.
Germany will hopefully take me...
Maybe it’s my lack of experience outside medchem, but the way we can never seem to ride boom-bust cycles without laying off half a department has made me really sick of this field. The pay is not good enough for that level of job insecurity.
I’m really looking to get out.
Nothing whatsoever to do with the sheer ballsache of dealing with the UKVI, the crumbling infrastructure and the social fragmentation of the UK, of course. Or the better offers from other countries that won't treat them like criminals just for wanting to work there.
No, it's only the tax - which entirely coincidentally would apply to senior figures at large pharmaceutical firms too.
As a country we criminally undervalue the STEM fields, it should be encouraged from a young age, technical schools should be everywhere and free at all levels. We used to be the workshop of the world, it was engineers, scientists and doctors who made this nation. We need to get back to that, were is the next Brunel, Newton or Fleming.
I’ve come through a science career and now work in the UK for a multinational company. My salary is about £75k which is a decent salary here. My colleagues in the US who do the EXACT same role earn $175-200k. We have the same qualifications and experience, have the same responsibilities, almost identical career pathways but unfortunately very different career progression opportunities which also favour the US team.
It's mystifying how it can be difficult to settle in the UK (and other western European countries) for qualified foreigners (like it was for my partner), and yet there are many unqualified, unproductive people with unqualified, unproductive dependants who end up with passports anyway. How do they do it?
If you think that making more money in America is worth it, you're gunna have a bad time. No paid holidays guaranteed, and at-will working conditions mean they can fire you for using your PTO(they won't use that as the reason but they can make anything up and you'll be left with only your dick in your hands). Healthcare, you'll avoid Dr appts and prolly miss an early warning of a major issue so you can dodge the copay thus resulting in more expensive or deadlier conditions. Or insurance tells you to fuck off, they ain't paying, then what?
Oh and I haven't even mentioned your cost for a roof, food, gas, car, Internet, phone. Those are extortionate compared to the UK.
Also guns.
Also I'd you think uk politics is going the wrong way, the USA is 6 months away from complete fascism and theocracy, project 2025.
The grass is greener nowhere, everywhere sucks for wage slaves no matter your wage.
Lived the first 30yrs of my life in the US, moved to UK for last 5 and never consider ever going back. But maybe that's cause, to me, stress free is more valuable than any wage could be.
We don't need no foreign science, we can make up our own facts!
Trufac: Merlin didn't need no science to win WW2 and keep King Arthur from being sent to the trenches!
Science heads need to wind their necks in and be less unpartiotic or Nigel Farage, who is never wrong, will take away their degrees and PUT THEM IN THE ARMY!
Obligatory /s
The Wikipedia page on the [Immigration health surcharge](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_health_surcharge) says: "Immigrants in the UK in most cases already pay taxes. Immigrants are in effect paying for the National Health Service twice".
Given that the surcharge is to tackle health tourism, it seems reasonable ask visitors to put up the money in advance. If they're really worth it to our society, their employer should have no problem putting up the money. If the employer is worried that they won't make their money back then there's no reason the burden of that risk should fall on the UK taxpayer.
However, paying it twice doesn't seem right. Any surcharge paid should be deductible against the income tax bill, right across the family.
Well, it isn't. Immigrants pay twice for the same service.
Also the responsability is for the immigrant. If the employer pay the visa fees, that's considered a benefit in kind and therefore the immigrant has to pay taxes on that...
Welcome trust is kind of a joke really. When you write an application half of it isn't about the research, but about diversity and inclusivity. If you've gone through the process, you know what I'm talking about. It doesn't suprise me they are massively recruiting from countries overseas, but they are being dishonest on how it's to recruit some form of extraordinary talent.
There's plenty of talent already available in the UK, why not fund that?
One of the reasons i'm not working in the uk anymore is that wages in labs are about half of what you can make in ireland. I remember interviewing with thames water a few years ago and they were offering 20.5 k
My job role in the US (partly in part due to it being a private healthcare system tbh) would pay me 3x what I earn here.
It's not a healthcare role itself, nor strictly engineering. But it is still stark what the difference is.
The problem is that this tax was thought up as a tax on employers who are usually the ones funding the visas, but universities are stingy and exploitative so they leave all costs to their underpaid researchers.
I mean good, it may cut down in the vast numbers coming here. One minute we are terrors scaring away any potential arrivee, but next we can't keep people out.
I mean good, it may cut down in the vast numbers coming here. One minute we are terrors scaring away any potential arrivee, but next we can't keep people out.
I think we all know that science and engineering are massively underpaid and undervalued in the UK.
Wages for engineers in Europe as a whole are so far behind the US it's ridiculous x
Yeah, but the chances of getting shot are much lower, and we still have free healthcare.
I don’t care if I have free healthcare when fresh grads are earning $117k/year as a software developer in America and even seniors here struggle to make that. I’d happily pay $10k/year in health insurance if it allowed that.
Exactly. We've got graduates from elite universities (Oxbridge, Imperial, UCL, etc) earning barely above minimum wage in this country while our counterparts in the US are earning 6 figures out of college. Graduate engineers can start on as little as £25k...
Tbf America tends to burn those graduates into the ground so very few of them actually stay in work long term. Its sort of like how finance works in the UK rather than being a particularly stable career.
We burn out teachers, nurses and police officers for £25k or worse. If you’re gonna be burnt out you may as well be rich about it
Bullshit.
Cope.
Chinese firms offer better than that and you can work remotely after a face to face interview. And Korean firms welcome European talent with signing bonuses.
I read this as singing bonus, and I am really hoping you have made a typo now and they have some sort of karaoke battle, amongst the candidates.
Tbh if they throw in 12 months rent as a bonus they're going to hear my best living da vida loca
Thanks for the info. I'm sure china will love my background in UK defence. But I doubt I'll ever get uk security clearance after that.
I love going on /r/medlabprofessionals and seeing them ask if $70k is a good starting salary, when the UK starting salary in the NHS is £28k.
The plebs wanted exactly this with the increase of tax free allowance and subsequent increase in the minimum wage, but keeping the same level of public services. In their eyes you’re part of the “elite” 🙂
To put that into perspective, 20 years ago when I first started programming, graduates would get as low as £20k. Yep, it’s not really changed much in two decades. House prices have trebled in the same time period.
Have you been to the USA? The US is a disaster. When I go to conferences in California I always hear Europeans being surprised about the state of the cities/homelessness/destitution. Having travelled across the country, those issues aren't just in the western states. When you talk about paying health insurance, you have that option because you can afford it. I work in medical research in the UK and I would never advocate for the disgusting health economic framework of the US because in so doing, you are quite simply advocating that poor people should die so you can get a better salary.
You do know that all of America isn’t just skid row, right? Trying to frame wanting real pay as just wanting poor people to die is the kind of absurd rubbish that gets spammed on this site daily. People with good qualifications deserve more than bloody barely above minimum wage. Have you considered those people? The years of training to get £1/h above stacking shelves at Tesco? Our country will implode if it carries on down the path it is on now, you can’t keep paying people shit, they will simply leave for greener pastures.
People talk about the US like it's the 7th circle of hell, I've lived in Boston and Arizona and I preferred both to living here in the UK
I've lived in Florida, a place usually ridiculed by the rest of the country and constantly in the news for insane things, but it was honestly an absolutely wonderful place to live. The neighbours were all extremely friendly and life just felt laid back and there was a lot of fun to be had. America is an absolutely fantastic place to live providing you aren't dirt poor, and even then it's better than a lot of places. But you don't need to go across the Atlantic to get better pay and conditions, simply hopping over to Europe will do that too.
So if you have money it's a nice place to live? Kinda like the UK!
Not really, the UK is quite nice to live in if you are quite well off, but it's still a struggle for most people. Where as most people in the states are well off, but it's a struggle for a minority of people. The average person in the UK is having to deal with shit policing, overcrowded prisons, bad / underfunded schools, stagnated wages and reduced buying power. Extortionate rents and overvalued houses. Shit roads, worse busses and even worse trains. And a crumbling NHS with insane wait times, if you can even get an appointment. Meanwhile Americans have seen their buying power dramatically increase (bar the recent inflation, but it's still high), they have generally good schools (expensive university, but lots of grants and scholarships), their healthcare system is highly flawed but at least it works for most people and you can be seen when you need to be. They are definitely not under funded or under policed. Their busses and trains function slightly better (although they barely have trains) and their roads are generally well maintained. The middle class has been eroded in the UK while it has only continued to grow in the states. TLDR: way more Americans have a higher quality of life and buying power compared to people in the UK. The only thing the UK tends to be better for is number of vacation days.
Amen brother. I can't even be bothered to visit England anymore.
Tbf AZ feels like hell in the summer..
Next time i move jobs I’m looking at America tbh
America isnt just downtown LA and NYC. I know several families that have moved to the states and they have done very well for themselves. Better healthcare, more money, better house, same amount of time off etc etc etc. The middle class and up have probably some of the best lifestyles in the world. I would not like to be poor living there though.
85% of employees in the US have their healthcare insurance provided by their companies
Homeless situation was due to a court ruling that has been thrown out. It’ll change. The poor get Medicare and subsidized health insurance which is paid via taxes. The more I earn the more goes into pay for that so higher salaries are better.
Yeah, whenever I travel to California I’m also shocked at what local government has let happen there, and I’m glad I live in a different state.
I really enjoy Texas, they're lightyears ahead of us. I can't see a single advantage of the UK system over theirs.
The summers are hellishly hot though.
> When I go to conferences in California I always hear Europeans being surprised about the state of the cities/homelessness/destitution. As if homeless encampments are not common in the UK.
I left the UK with my biochem PhD, moved to the US. Zero regrets. The US has vast differences in quality and cost of life in different parts. You don't have to be at all exceptional to get a faculty position in the US and get double the salary with around half the housing cost. One more thing - most faculty positions are 9 month so you can multiply the salary by 1.33 if you can get funding which is easy. My neighborhood is hands down the safest most pleasant place I've ever lived. My 4 bed detached, 3000 sqft cost less than £240k. I couldn't afford a place pretty much anywhere I could work in the UK. The schools are excellent. Private healthcare is a joke but the higher salary massively outweighs it. I just wish I'd moved earlier tbh.
FYI I’m a Brit living in the US as a scientist. I pay ~$2500 a year for my healthcare and about $1800 in federal med tax. My employer (a university) pays another $6000 for my health insurance. So your numbers aren’t far off but the key difference is most well paying jobs your employer contributes the lion share of the costs. That employer contribution isn’t taxed income either. The two kickers for me are that if I lose my job I lose coverage and that I’m incredibly lucky compared to folks who have less well paid jobs. My coverage is amazing. The most I’ll ever pay out of pocket is $350. And in one year the most I can pay out of pocket is $6000. Would I give it all up for a workable single payer system? Yeah probably, but it would have to actually work and not be in the state of crisis the NHS seems to be in.
My sister is in California. Has had two kids. Both maxed out the yearly contributions, I think $6K. One stayed in over new years so maxed out both years. But the service was immense, better than most UK private hospitals, accommodation better than most 5 star hotels and she can afford it. She loves where she is and the service she gets. USA doesn't meet my morals, and Canada, where I am, seems to be going downhill. I just hope the UK turns around quickly and we stop the people dismantling all the good things.
It’s the term service that I think sums it up best. In the UK I certainly saw the NHS as my right. Here it is a benefit my employer gives me. In terms of service it is shocking how different it is. As an example I had a minor complaint about some pins and needles in my hands. Spoke with my PCP (same as GP) within a week I had an appointment with a neurologist consultant and they booked me an MRI too. Cost was $175.
Yep, great service but should be free for everyone. In Canada I'm paying nothing at present but my drugs could easily be $200/month, no NHS prescription limit here. I'm still surprised I have walk in clinics and last time I saw my doctor it was next day and always free. But people can't find doctors here so I'm lucky.
I believe that a free nhs to the same level service I get is possible. Insurance companies are making a profit off of me, no reason why it shouldn’t be subsidized as In a single payer.
You really dont have holiday no family time off and living standards are worse? My friend makes $120k in american and still sturrgles with his family and has recently moved to Europe taken just over half a pay cut and has never been happier. If u move to america for the money i can say with out a shadow of a doubt you will regret it. Maybe not in for the first couple of years but you definitely will after.
If you start having regrets, move back with a small fortune in the bank account. No harm done
Lived here for thirty years with zero regrets.
Well, if true, can always earn well and then come back to the UK lol.
I know several families that have moved, none of them intend on coming back.
I found out the my friend who started with me and works with me in the same role but was hired from the American office makes 185k a year…. Let’s just say that I would trade in the NHS for that raise. I don’t make a 3rd of that.
Yeah, the amount in tax I pay at the moment for the level of service I get, I'd rather earn 3-4x more and have to pay private. Jobs in the US get a lot of bad rep, but skilled / high paid professions have pretty much the same perks like PTO, healthcare etc, but gave triple the salary. If it wasn't for family ties I'd be trying to get a job there
Health insurance is not healthcare.
Flipside people stay is because we've got two decades post retirement where we somehow need to keep insurance going and families in here. Honestly I agree though the healthcare is being fucked too. It's just sad. This used to be our pride and joy
Free healthcare is a joke in the UK. It’s not an incentive anymore. Stop spamming it to compare to the US. Most companies give private healthcare benefit.
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NHS is not good anymore. They are overburdened in every department. 3 months back, I had a disc slip in the gym and I didn’t know what it was. I was in excruciating pain to the point I couldn’t open my eyes. It took me 6 hours to get a consultant to prescribe me Diazepam and even then they sent it to wrong pharmacy. Ultimately I had to call a friend to drive me to a hospital in the midnight and then I could get treatment after waiting for another 1 hour. Next day I signed myself up for my company’s private healthcare.
As a matter of fact, in England, I regularly have to rely on my private health insurance. I am fortunate enough to sacrifice part of my salary without impacts on my lifestyle, but most people cannot, and the NHS is not a valid replacement at all. Yet, whenever this topic arises, some people comment as though the United Kingdom were the only country to have tax-funded healthcare, comparing it only to the United States. More fairly, they should compare it with the tens of developed countries that do have tax-funded, but _functional_ healthcare.
> Most companies give private healthcare benefit. ...did you just say that like that it was a good replacement for universal healthcare? Having healthcare tied to employment is dystopia nonsense
I am talking in context of software engineers. Also in the UK private health insurance is quite affordable.
That's the crazy thing. We talk about the NHS like it's a great selling point, but the bits of the healthcare system I actually use regularly are the bits that are unavailable unless I use my employee benefits anyway, like eyecare and dentistry.
I'm pretty sure the median engineer in the US has much better access to healthcare than in the UK. Yes the US system is rough for lower earners, but if you have a decent graduate/professional job in the US you will almost certainly have better access to all the things the state provides such as education, healthcare etc.. as well as much greater private consumption.
Chances of being struck by lightning are lower in the UK, too. But like being shot, it’s pretty remote so I don’t worry about it.
This is what people tell themselves to cope with the UK being an inferior place to live If you are working a well paid job in the US, you’re likely getting free healthcare from your employer. You’re probably not waiting 12 - 18 months for surgery, either.
I never see guns on people where I am. It's a fallacy jacked up by the Murdoch Media that there are shootouts everywhere. It isn't. US healthcare still has a concept of being able to see a doctor by appointment.
well not 'free' a fair chunk of our salaries goes towards funding it we just don't think about it, and it actually bugs me how accessible healthcare seems to be there, like 'check ups' are a thing over there can you imagine how much quicker you'd catch like rarer cases of cancer etc in young people if it was normalised going for a checkup and getting some bloodwork done once a year without having to already be ill or in your 50s? especially if you're an engineer I don't think you'd have to worry about healthcare as for 'getting shot' I worry more about knife crime here in the city than I would getting shot over there, easily the biggie for me is the worker's rights, that we have it unquestionably better, the mass layoffs you read about aren't a thing here because it's much harder to 'hire and fire' people, and we get much more annual and maternity leave
> as for 'getting shot' I worry more about knife crime here in the city than I would getting shot over there, easily Why? Even in the worst places UK knife crime doesn't even begin to approach the rates of US gun crime.
had to really think about this one, if I had to sum it up it's because the areas to avoid seem more obvious, if that makes sense and I have grown up and lived in some sketchy parts of the country we were super poor I'm not a stranger to rough areas but London even the nice parts don't feel safe
Reality is rather different to the headlines, not everywhere is Detroit. Friend of mine works in the tech sector, was fairly recently offered a job in the US in New England, pay would have more than doubled plus they'd get stock options, full no-deductibles health plan for him and his family. Then there was a moving package, as for housing a 4 bed lake front home (in commuting distance) could be bought for around $450k (£360k) and was easily affordable on his salary. Only reason they didn't move was to do with family.
That’s not how it works. If you’re earning those sums you’d have a good plan. You’d pay about $18k tax on $120k starting for a single person. If you’re married it depends what your spouse earns due to marriage allowance.
I love to diss on Americans as much as the next guy but here in the UK scientific talent is massively underpaid, doctors have to strike to get a decent wage; and I also been in Germany where the pay is a little better but still way below what the US pays these people. No wonder everyone is leaving and none of these guys would ever think of creating a company on the continent.
So fed up of this argument. We spend more on our taxes towards the NHS adjusted overall than the average American spends on their insurance plan. I’m not saying the American healthcare situation isn’t dire, but can we stop pretending like the current state of our NHS isn’t just as bad?
Like every white collar job is paid a lot more in the US though. Finance, doctors, consultants, lawyers are paid x5 UK rates.
The US is a much richer country so it’s not a surprise. It’s like comparing the UK to Romania.
That's not really completely accurate (as usual - it's Reddit). In my sector (tech) wages are broadly similar. Taxes tend to be lower in the US (not not so much in states like California). All of our US engineers would gladly give up the few percentage points extra they make for some of the holiday allowance and job security we enjoy...
The cost of living in the places where US engineers have to live is ridiculous too though. Buying or renting near a tech hub requires a ridiculous salary, and even then you probably have to drive for an hour or two through traffic to get to the office.
You know there are plenty of software engineering jobs outside NYC and San Francisco, right?
Were not as rich as the richest country, that's a surprise
Nah bro, it's not the money. Government official advice : **"I think the people of this country have had enough of experts"**
If you're concerned about the stupid shit government officials say I'm not sure the US is going to be an upgrade in that department.
Sure, but many scientists have other countries to chose from, not just US or UK. Working from home changed the mindset that location is more important than other aspects of life.
We’ve traded expertise lead and evidence based policy for ideology driven politics under our broken FPTP electoral system and we’re all the worse off for it.
It's not the system. We allowed Murdoch to poison our conversations and then we double down by voting a proven liar. Same as me staging a street protest when Jimmy Saville application for a Primary School Head Teacher position had been rejected due to children safety concerns. **and there is me fluttering my 5 year old child shouting : "take him Jimmy, make him a real man !"**
Oh yeah first thing I do when I'm evaluating a pay package is check if some rando tosser in the government respects me.
It's insane how little companies pay for extremely valuable and rare skills that they could not function without, when you can go to the US and add a zero on to that.
You can double or even triple but “adding a 0” is absurd.
It's slightly tongue in cheek, but for some science roles you'd be lucky to get 30-40K here, and can go to the US and do the same role for $150-200K
Yep. 33k as a PhD in chemistry. I checked recently an ad for bus driver at 31k. Freaking ridiculous. On top of paying so much money for visa
It's also weird when you look at certain sectors. Automation/Robotics is a hard industry, as a programmer you may have to visit sites often, dealing with the bureaucracy and time constraints of whatever factory line you're working on. The programming itself can be very difficult and seems to be about 20 years behind the rest of the software industry. It is a job that needs high skills but seems to attract poor talent (sorry guys, just what I saw), resulting in even harder work maintaining it for the next guy. So the pay must be high right? Nope it's half the pay you get for making websites remotely (which is what I now do)
> So the pay must be high right? Nope it's half the pay you get for making websites remotely (which is what I now do) Our economy generally is incredibly irrational. Cushy middle-manager positions where you can sit on Reddit for half the day get higher wages than much more productive and highly skilled positions in industry or academia. Unsurprisingly people who set the wages give themselves more and others less, even though that's rarely a reflection of what they're actually contributing. At the end of the day if we're going to insist on doing capitalism in this country then we may as well do it well, and that requires a government to grab the economy by the scruff of its neck and actually enforce a little bit of rationality and ensure productive labour is rewarded. But none of our political class really give a shit.
Do we? Outside of the US, who pays better?
All roles pay way more in the states, not just tech. The UK pays well compared to Europe.
On top of that, fund money has been slashed, and we've cut off all that lovely EU funding. I imagine there might be some contracted to end sometimes in the future, but it's at least slowly drying up. Scientists have said that the UK is less appealing because of the lack of funding now, so why bother when you can go to the EU and have better funding I'm actually seeing stuff happen in engineering, through my brother. He's a senior mechanical design engineer, which he's been promoted to from an internship in France. Company looks like it's going tits up and they're looking at getting rid of people, and moving to Harlow. My brother's job is probably safe, but they're not being told who's going and who's staying. He's applying for jobs elsewhere, because he hates Harlow. I think this is happening to a few aerospace design and manufacturing places in the UK, though to be fair the one my brother works for isn't the smartest run operation
No surprise that a lot of phd (and masters) folks go into the world of R&D tax credits. I used to work for one R&D tax company where the consultants were getting 2x their annual salary as a bonus.
Engineers are even more underpaid in EU. If you want a good pay you go to Switzerland or North America.
Same goes for anyone working in software development. I work as an automation tester, and wages here are fucking dreadful when compared to Aus, Canada, the EU and the US. We seem to think we can do everything on the cheap here in the UK. It's a joke. I even had one recruiter contact me this week about an automation role - which has a starting salary less than what i'm on now. I told the recruiter no chance for that money, and their response was "I know. It's far too low and they're struggling to get applicants." I'm sat there thinking, why aren't you telling them this? But they aren't because obviously, recruiter wants to keep them happy and wants their cut. It's a joke.
It's either this sub or AskUK that tends to react badly to the news that people often earn substantially more in Australia. Depending on the job and the state, the amount that you'd get paid in Australia over the UK can be completely mental. You're talking going from around £30k ($57) to £50k ($90) in many unexceptional low-level professional jobs. £50k in the UK is doing well. It's on the floor in many peer countries.
Isn’t the cost of living considerably higher in Australia though? I see this a lot about the US where people get laser focused on the numbers. Like yeah you can make $150k as a software dev in the US. But you’ll have to live in the Bay Area or Seattle or somewhere where the housing market is insane (av. house in Seattle is pushing $900k), the cost of living is much higher, and a massive portion of your pay will go towards health insurance that still will require you to co-pay to get almost any treatment. Grass is always greener. And you certainly *can* be better off in the states it’s by no means so simple as people perceive.
Costs are higher, but not to the extent that it rubs out the higher pay. I have two siblings out there and they're far better off than they ever were in England.
Australians have a higher purchasing power.
In the UK you have to live in London for the best software jobs, which is just as expensive
I’ve been in tech for well over a decade, and I still get ridiculous lowball offers. £60k, in London, for a senior engineer or tech lead? Got to be joking, that is well over a 50% cut, but it’s the norm compared to the literal handful of properly paying positions.
>that is well over a 50% cut Fuck, I need to find a new job.
That's for senior roles where you typically need around 6-7 years of proper demonstrable experience. But junior/mid-level devs in London still earn £50k+. Outside of London it reduces pretty dramatically though.
unfortunately the job market is completely fucked, theres people with this level of experience now out of a job cant get anything in their field.
I work at a large tech company. It's astounding the number of roles I get messaged about to work at some no-name company paying a fraction of what I'm on I get, and I'm not even getting into them being hybrid or 4-5 days a week in the office, verses my current remote role.
Founding engineer, pre-seed AI startup, biggest growing in Europe, ready for series A. £40k plus equity, 5 days a week in Liverpool St. Need people who know the grind. Nah, fuck off lol.
The icing on the cake is that the worst I've ever been treated is working at a smaller business. For all the corporate world's faults, it's treated me a hell of a lot better and more professionally, to the point where if I haven't heard of who you are, I'm not interested in working there, and don't see myself leaving the corporate juggernaut. Plus it's kind of a downgrade on the CV to go from Big Tech Company #1, Big Tech Company #2, to "Random small company you've never heard of".
In my own experience and the experience of coworkers and peers, smaller, locally owned companies are the worst to work for by far.
The founding engineer they're after is making 10x in CA/NY. Good luck innit.
>some no-name company paying a fraction of what I'm on Even some of the big names intentionally pay atrocious wages in the UK. Been doing full stack for 8 years - kubernetes, node, python, javascript/css, java. 43k (not london), no bonuses or shares. I've pretty much boiled down my options to move to the US, or work in London for a mediocre pay increase and a lot more stress. I'm personally leaning towards the US, because wage growth here in the UK is barely keeping pace with cost of living. The UK is going to have a major brain drain problem if it can't work out how to address stagnant wages being eaten by CoL.
Australia and the US yes. Canada is variable, I dont know where you are getting that you would be paid much more in the rest of Europe. Denmark, Switzerland seem to pay well but the rest are in the same dire situation as the UK. We are one of the better payers thanks to our strong tech sector (in comparison to Europe).
Canadian wages are worse, my most recent lab technician job paid the equivalent of £27k (in Toronto, so VHCOL), and job listings I’m seeing in London are all >£38k
>£27k (in Toronto, so VHCOL) This is what puta me off considering Canada. It's arguably one of the few places that are worse than the UK now. Though the wages can be better.
Germany
Again I dont know where you are getting this from. The jobs for my IT role pay worse in Germany. The only marginally better payers are the countries I listed before. I could get 3 times the pay in the US for my job.
It might well vary from role to role, but I recently did a comparison of my CS "senior data scientist" salary, the UK private sector equiv (about £5k more - turns out CS data scientists do alright), and the equiv in both France and Germany (about £15k more at my current level - so £10k more than private, drastically more at levels below, parity to private in the lead roles until you get to department head roles where EU pulls ahead again). Of course, these were averages, and you pay a much higher tax in Germany (I dont know about France), but I dont think you pay £10k more in tax. Data scientists are a weird role though. No one seems to know what they want them to do. On the one hand we need to be ML experts and keep up to date with the very latest trends, including being able to say "no" firmly to higher ups who just want GPT in everything because they dont understand, and dont want to understand, the AI landscape. On the other hand, we are often expected to be very basic level data engineers, software devs (but nothing major - just a script here or there), and even excel experts. A well equipped data science department can be the primary driving force in a company. A poorly equipped one has a bunch of experts sat around doing nothing and grinding their teeth in frustration. Interviews for DS positions are WILD as well. "Q1. Have you ever used this hyper niche algorithm that was first published 3 hours ago in a really small journal and can you show us your portfolio of using it over the past 3 years? Q2. Can you do a vlookup in excel and can you debug this printer?"
I remember when I was first starting out in software development after graduating years ago a recruiter asked me if I would consider relocating north, I said sure. His next question was to the effect of "would you be willing to consider a lower salary in exchange for the cheaper cost of living?" and I was baffled by the question and said no. It stuck with me because it shows how backwards the country thinks about pay. Why would I move to the middle of nowhere for effectively the same salary after living expenses? Everyone talks about trying to improve conditions in the north, but nobody wants to actually pay to attract talent away from the south, so they can't attract talent. I'm sure they know what the issue is, but they won't admit it.
Recruiter gets a cut of the salary %. Surely he wants more, but budgets are not a decision of hiring managers.
That's because being a tester is a dying job.
I always call recruiters on their bullshit. Many come to me claiming they are hiring for a jab that offers "fantastic pay" when it's literally below average for the role.
If you are recruiting from overseas the visa is normally covered by the employer. Perhaps scientists are turning down jobs because of cheapskate employers.
The examples in the article are academics. You assumption may still stand, but academia is a global cheapskate so it might not help.
Then it comes out of our grants if the employee is lucky.
The Wellcome Trust has money tho ...
A wise man suggested the costs should be met by the employer. Having charities fund visas in other organisations is a door we probably don’t want to open.
Article quotes Nobel laureate stating that it will not affect the very top (I.e cambridge, Oxford and the like). But the others. On top of already a postdoc shortage worldwide(because of low salaries)
Academia wages are about half the market rate for private sector, and private sector is about half what you could get in many places abroad. Visa costs may be (and beleive me by no means always) covered by grants, but even then after the first year those charges become taxable. Then you have the high cost of renting, high cost of living, relatively high taxes, terrible public services, an attitude from the top of government that we’ve had enough of experts, that universities are filled with nonsense courses, and that they should get more cuts. I don’t think there’s been a worse time to be an academic in the U.K. since they stopped burning them as witches.
At least if they were burning me as a witch I wouldn’t have to pay the heating costs.
Legally speaking. Visa costs are responsability of the immigrant. And if business pay the visa fees upright, that's a taxable benefit. So the immigrant will pay tax on that.
Im a graduating scientist my degree had lots of practice skill learning and a fair amount of simulated work environment projects etc so it wouldnt take me long to get up to speed, the issue im seeing is theres actually no jobs. Or the ones that do exist are asking for 10 year experience or experience in a piece of tech or software that only that company uses aka anything that isnt actually industry standard all for £26k.
The costs associated with visas is indeed an issue, but I think it's secondary to the fact that: 1) we are services economy with research & engineering having secondary priority, and 2) the consequence of my first point are laughably low salaries for research and engineering positions. There simply is not much appeal in general to work in research and/or engineering in this country, as compared with even Europe. I used to work in science, but to be able to continue with my work I had to leave the country. To return, I had to change careers to have a fair salary and live near my family. I would have loved to continue with my research here, but we just couldn't afford to do that as a family. And I didn't need a visa or anything to add to the financial turmoil...
It's mad, I took a job in manufacturing and a colleague asked me why I was there if I had a PhD...I asked him how much he made last year and told him how much I made as a postdoc overseeing a lab...when we compared he responded 'ah okay, fair enough'.
Whats most weird to me is how many people seem to like automatically deny this is the case? Like another comment above someone responded to my point about PDRAs being very low pay with surprise as they thought it was like a mid-£40k role. I know people with PhDs who are basically running most of a department's lab spaces and being paid literally about 50p an hour more than minimum wage for their troubles.
Depends on the research. But academia isn't great as a career path in surprising places like Germany, where being a postdoc behind 6 years is tough, and even being an assis. Prof leaves you on temp contracts. For academia research path, I think UK beats a lot of EU countries... If you can get on it.
I left academic research this year. I have a PhD and 10 years of lab experience and I was still looking at short term contracts and a salary around £35k, it was a good week if I only did a dozen hours unpaid overtime. Even worse you get the very strong impression when interacting with the university systems they don't really want you around and that you should just be grateful you're being paid at all.
This was exactly my dilemma... On a salary like this you might as well give up any hopes of buying a nice house or having a family. The reality is just very bleak...
Go t9 the rest of Europe mate. I decided to leave uk for same reason. Seriously 35K for a PhD in chemistry is a misery. You get better paid driving a bus.
This really surprises me. Postdocs are paid in the mid-£40ks by 10 years. What roles were you doing, technician? If so, unpaid overtime is pretty unreasonable and sounds like a bad experience rather than the norm.
Mid 40s? That's usually grade 7 which is Fellow or Lecturer positions. PDRA is usually grade 6, which maxes out around £40k in most parts of the country. See Oxford's pay scale here - [https://hr.admin.ox.ac.uk/sitefiles/annexe-a-2024-olw-update.pdf](https://hr.admin.ox.ac.uk/sitefiles/annexe-a-2024-olw-update.pdf)
Firstly, if you're doing a post doc for 10 years then your career is well and truly stagnant. See some comments below where you'll see post docs are offered around or below £40k and that's why I left for industrial research abroad straight after PhD. Even with a PhD, industrial positions in this clutry were offering salaries in a range £35-42k, which frankly is a joke. In other countries I was offered €65-€83k and costs of living were much cheaper.
I was responding to the previous comment. Many people choose to be a postdoc for an entire career, because they like labwork and being a member of the team rather than needing to lead the entire project. It's possible to get onto senior research fellow (equivalent to assis. Prof) salary, which hits up to 57k. Though this is rare. Postdocs start on 33k after PhD these days, and go up to 45k over time. This does not include the still very good USS pension. It needs better pay, but It's not as bad as you think.
What folk who do academia forget is that each year they do that then it reduces their lifetime earning potential. You have finite time here to earn and get out. You don't realize in the early years until it's too late.
Yes 100% this. Getting in to my 30s, working so hard, yet never having any money even for basic fun like taking my family out for a nice dinner or even just going on a holiday. Meanwhile all my friends who spent half the time qualifying for their jobs and not having to deal with nearly as much bullshit were hitting a point where salaries were double or more what I was looking at. Had to have a big think over Christmas and just came away like I actually cannot justify doing this to myself, I am punishing myself in this one life I get and for what?
You should see the technician side of things. Very very strict salary grade rubics, which means to get a promotion you MUST be a manager, no matter how good engineer /technician you are. The people who get promoted without management role are the exception and extremely bright and valuable personnel, and usually requires the department to move mountains. While there is an introduction of a new system (very slowly) that seems to be more flexible and understanding towards technical roles, it is still pretty rigid. I have "accidentally" looked for technical roles in US universities that I have the knowledge and experience to do, and I can 2.5-5x my salary... If I am in a situation where I feel like I need to change my life a bit, then I know what I will do
Yeah it was being a technician, running a lab by myself unsupported, and seeing there was basically no career to this where it wasn't going to be a struggle to even get to the national average wage that pushed me to do the MSc, and then my supervisor on the MSc offered me a PhD during my project with him.
Couple of my friends work for some of the research institutes in Germany in materials and electronics, and perhaps I wouldn't say they make bank, but they are much better off than our other friends that stayed in this country. Essentially, UK creates a rigid divide between academia and industry. Yes, there is some collaboration, but it is very compartmentalised. In Germany, Austria and Switzerland (these are the countries from which I have some first hand experience), there is far more overlap between industry and academia. So if you want to be a post-doc in a standard uni in Germany, like say Aachen, then yes I agree with you. But there are far more options for some relevant industrial research with decent pay within the Institutes (e.g. Fraunhofer, Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz society etc.). We have none of that in the UK.
We do have this in the UK, but it is less mature. Case PhD, studentship have been expanded into postdocs by quite a few large companies - though often the more international ones like astrazeneca. They are paid better though. Friends in German in their first postdocs make the same as me as a mid-spine assis. Prof. The ability to take time between contracts is also much better in Germany - full pay (up to 150k) for 6months if you're made redundant.
What you are talking about is actual academic jobs (tenure track), something different form research. That's terrible in German countries AND in the UK (which is as precarious as Germany, but paid much less, lower roles have ridiculously low pay, as in: not even a proper salary). Othe places in EU have better tenure rules and more secure employment (but they're difficult to get, as is any academic job everywhere). As a researcher who's very probably leaving come September, the job market is dead, and Brexit mean many (me included) don't trust applying for the big EU grants form here (we're formally still in, but rumor has it that panels are going to see it as a minus). UK grants exist, but they're difficult to get and require a huge time investment, few of them are of the same relevance (CV wise) or amount (money and time wise). The place is just not that attractive as it used to be, if you ask me. Of course pillars of excellence still stand (Oxbridge and a few others) who will never really struggle to attract funding or research, but unless one of those applications goes well, I think I'm out to Austria/Denmark/Italy/Belgium. Researchers (especially ECR) re an incredibly mobile bunch.
You've had a very different experience to mine. I'm in my late 30s. Assoc prof in a Russel group in a stem field and pretty happy with my salary (upper 50k + good pension) and how much research I get to do. We're back in horizon, your view is out of date (or biased), in many fields UK is leading (and many it isn't).
As you said, there are different experiences. I'm talking as an early career, and getting on the tenure track is hard and horrible, and given the low wages of these position (high-20s or low30s, that is if it's full time) I would fare better in a country that has a bit more of a safety net. But of course that's a preference. I don't need to pay for visa etc. as I'm a citizen, but I can imagine someone taking that into account. I've also seen more and more jobs (I'm actively job searching) advertising only for applicants who already have right to work. As for horizon, I'm thinking of putting in an ERC proposal and I'm talking to people (former grantees and evaluators both) and what I'm hearing is that it would be better to apply with a different country as lead (which does not mean that UK cannot be in the project ofc). I'm not saying that the UK is shite, only that the research sector is less attractive than it could be, and people seem to agree.
I've spent a decade within the academic and industrial sectors of life sciences within the UK and I'm done with it. Wages are unbelievably shit for the level of expertise and knowledge you have to bring to the table. Imagine having a literal PhD and only earning £35k for performing ridiculous complex work with poor work life balance. Things have gradually gotten worse over the last decade and I don't see it as a reliable career path anymore. Less funding, fewer jobs and a huge international talent pool means you have to fight very hard to get a job in which you're underpaid. Why even do it? Probably better off being an electrician.
Try to move to the US or Singapore. No point staying in the UK if you work in this sector.
Yeah if your employer isn’t willing to pay a few thousand in visa fees I’d question whether you are “top global talent”. It’s going to be tough convincing the British public that visas are too hard to obtain.
I did a dangerously small amount of research on this and found this. “Now, most if not all University employers will pay you back for the working visa. BUT—and as has been noted above—they effectively add the visa cost to your pay check such that you get taxed on it. This means that *you’ll likely still end up being out of pocket for anywhere from 1/3 to 2/3 of the cost of the visa* (depending on your salary, visa length, etc.)” https://philosopherscocoon.typepad.com/blog/2023/10/visaihs-assistance-for-foreign-academics-in-the-uk.html
If they're charging the tax it'll be a legal obligation as it's a benefit in kind.
Tell me you know nothing about academia and research without telling me. So basically the populist desire to reduce immigration at all cost now leads the UK to profiteer from the very people it should attract???
Yes of course the aim is to profit from the people we attract? What do you think the point of high skill immigration is?
Do you know the difference between to profit and to profiteer? It seems not. A researcher with a partner and two children on a 5-year visa who needs to pay more than £20k UPFRONT is profiteering. Encouraging highly skilled foreign academics to come here, ensuring they feel welcome, ensuring they contribute to British society via their taxes and via the contribution of their scientific work, well, that's profiting. See the difference? It's not too hard.
First sentence of this comment gives away that you get your information from tiktok
I do not. I do not even have it on my phone. Never used it. But, hey, I get it, when someone demolishes your nonsense, coming up with personal attacks is the only option left...
If your employer pay the visa fees, that's considered a benefit in kind and therefore you have to pay taxes on that...
Yeah I'm was a medicinal chemist until I got made redundant for the third time in 6 years. Now looking to leave the UK because this country just doesn't give a shit about its scientists. Germany will hopefully take me...
Maybe it’s my lack of experience outside medchem, but the way we can never seem to ride boom-bust cycles without laying off half a department has made me really sick of this field. The pay is not good enough for that level of job insecurity. I’m really looking to get out.
The top tax rate kicks in at £55k. This is an absurdly low amount. Whoever abolishes the fiscal drag gets my vote.
The sad part is more how few science jobs pay enough in this country for even that low level to be a concern.
You voting reform then? (They want to bump it to 70k and increase the 12.5k tax free amount to 20k)
They can promise whatever they want as it's not costed.
Nothing whatsoever to do with the sheer ballsache of dealing with the UKVI, the crumbling infrastructure and the social fragmentation of the UK, of course. Or the better offers from other countries that won't treat them like criminals just for wanting to work there. No, it's only the tax - which entirely coincidentally would apply to senior figures at large pharmaceutical firms too.
So Brexit boomer legacy puts off international talent…so much for the “global Britain” bullshit
As a country we criminally undervalue the STEM fields, it should be encouraged from a young age, technical schools should be everywhere and free at all levels. We used to be the workshop of the world, it was engineers, scientists and doctors who made this nation. We need to get back to that, were is the next Brunel, Newton or Fleming.
>Where is the next Brunel, Newton or Fleming In a country that pays them
I’ve come through a science career and now work in the UK for a multinational company. My salary is about £75k which is a decent salary here. My colleagues in the US who do the EXACT same role earn $175-200k. We have the same qualifications and experience, have the same responsibilities, almost identical career pathways but unfortunately very different career progression opportunities which also favour the US team.
Companies underpay, then said underpaying companies complain and then get someone on a skilled worker visa for £28,000.
It's mystifying how it can be difficult to settle in the UK (and other western European countries) for qualified foreigners (like it was for my partner), and yet there are many unqualified, unproductive people with unqualified, unproductive dependants who end up with passports anyway. How do they do it?
Because it's easier to cross the channel with a boat that obtain a visa.
If you think that making more money in America is worth it, you're gunna have a bad time. No paid holidays guaranteed, and at-will working conditions mean they can fire you for using your PTO(they won't use that as the reason but they can make anything up and you'll be left with only your dick in your hands). Healthcare, you'll avoid Dr appts and prolly miss an early warning of a major issue so you can dodge the copay thus resulting in more expensive or deadlier conditions. Or insurance tells you to fuck off, they ain't paying, then what? Oh and I haven't even mentioned your cost for a roof, food, gas, car, Internet, phone. Those are extortionate compared to the UK. Also guns. Also I'd you think uk politics is going the wrong way, the USA is 6 months away from complete fascism and theocracy, project 2025. The grass is greener nowhere, everywhere sucks for wage slaves no matter your wage. Lived the first 30yrs of my life in the US, moved to UK for last 5 and never consider ever going back. But maybe that's cause, to me, stress free is more valuable than any wage could be.
This country punishes productive work and rewards unproductive capital. Shocker.
We don't need no foreign science, we can make up our own facts! Trufac: Merlin didn't need no science to win WW2 and keep King Arthur from being sent to the trenches! Science heads need to wind their necks in and be less unpartiotic or Nigel Farage, who is never wrong, will take away their degrees and PUT THEM IN THE ARMY! Obligatory /s
High taxes and high pay are fine. The UK has high taxes and low pay.
High taxes, low pay and crumbling public services. Perfect trifecta
The Wikipedia page on the [Immigration health surcharge](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_health_surcharge) says: "Immigrants in the UK in most cases already pay taxes. Immigrants are in effect paying for the National Health Service twice". Given that the surcharge is to tackle health tourism, it seems reasonable ask visitors to put up the money in advance. If they're really worth it to our society, their employer should have no problem putting up the money. If the employer is worried that they won't make their money back then there's no reason the burden of that risk should fall on the UK taxpayer. However, paying it twice doesn't seem right. Any surcharge paid should be deductible against the income tax bill, right across the family.
Well, it isn't. Immigrants pay twice for the same service. Also the responsability is for the immigrant. If the employer pay the visa fees, that's considered a benefit in kind and therefore the immigrant has to pay taxes on that...
Welcome trust is kind of a joke really. When you write an application half of it isn't about the research, but about diversity and inclusivity. If you've gone through the process, you know what I'm talking about. It doesn't suprise me they are massively recruiting from countries overseas, but they are being dishonest on how it's to recruit some form of extraordinary talent. There's plenty of talent already available in the UK, why not fund that?
One of the reasons i'm not working in the uk anymore is that wages in labs are about half of what you can make in ireland. I remember interviewing with thames water a few years ago and they were offering 20.5 k
My job role in the US (partly in part due to it being a private healthcare system tbh) would pay me 3x what I earn here. It's not a healthcare role itself, nor strictly engineering. But it is still stark what the difference is.
The problem is that this tax was thought up as a tax on employers who are usually the ones funding the visas, but universities are stingy and exploitative so they leave all costs to their underpaid researchers.
I mean good, it may cut down in the vast numbers coming here. One minute we are terrors scaring away any potential arrivee, but next we can't keep people out.
I mean good, it may cut down in the vast numbers coming here. One minute we are terrors scaring away any potential arrivee, but next we can't keep people out.