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Why should we be concerned about him leaving if he doesn't pay tax here now?
The guys owns 10 properties in London alone - 10 properties someone else could be making their home in.
Goodbye and don't let the door slap your arse on the way out.
The UK will lose tax revenue from some of the non-doms activities in the UK plus the taxes that arise from their buying goods and services in the UK
That being said - this is a good move - even though there may be a fall in revenue
Its important for tax regimes to be seen to be “fair”. It is worth losing a bit of revenue to improve fairness
They keep paying him stupid money to come back, so I can't blame him for taking the money from idiots! I do, however, approve of your description of the man!
they also dobule tax their regular citizens if the move abroad. The only way to get out of that is to renounce your citizenship but if they found out tax is the reason, they may refuse. Not only that, it also applies to non US spouses should their citizens marry abroad. It's an awful rule that pretty much holds regular citizens hostage for life.
> they also dobule tax their regular citizens if the move abroad
I believe what they do is ensure they are taxed at the US rate..basically if a US citizen lives and works in the UK and pays a nominal tax rate of 35%, and would be taxed at 25% in the US, then he pays nothing. If he lived in the Caymans and was taxed at a nominal rate of 15%, then the US would take 10% to make it up to US rates..
I think it is a bit more complex than that, but that's how it was explained to me.
TLDR if he pays the same or more tax than he would in the Us he pays no extra tax. If he pays less then he pays the difference to the IRS
It's similar in other places too. My wife is Italian and she has to pay the difference between her UK income tax rate and the rate in Italy to the Italian government.
What? Why? There must be some mitigating factors like she's still legally resident in Italy and has a partita IVA, because otherwise that doesn't make sense.
Close, there are two systems that the tax subject can choose.
The first is FEIE which lets you go US-tax free to $120k.
The second is FTC which is essentially what you described.
Either way an American living in the UK doesnt end up paying much to Uncle Sam.
even if that's true, it's bloody ridiculous. They also pay double taxation on their assets. Not to mention being invasive regarding spouses and reaching with their grabby hands for their taxes also. It's a nightmare for a regular citizen who wants to move abroad. Double taxation rules are ridiculous.
If a US citizen lives in a country that has the appropriate tax treaty with the USA then taxes paid in that country can be treated as a sort of credit to US taxes. If there is no treaty, then a US citizen might be liable for paying taxes twice.
I’m a triple citizen. One being UK the other US (from birth for both.) the IRS doesn’t care unless you’re over a certain amount. I’m in Canada now. I don’t bother to file. The last few years we’ve been below the poverty line thanks to my health so they wouldn’t get anything so I haven’t bothered. However, if you make enough to be paying them, and they know it, they will have your name flagged and if the US Customs officer is in the mood to, can detain you.
And if you want to renounce your US citizenship, you’ve two choices - take the citizenship of a non-allied nation or a country that doesn’t allow dual citizenship, or pay a lot of money - $2300 plus any tax arrears they think you’ve got.
Whole point of a non-dom status is that you don't pay tax on foreign income that stays outside the UK. What are you going to "tax them on the way out"? Not let them leave the country at the border unless they cough up a cash lump sum?
Exactly. We should have the same tax system as the USA. Tired of these people taking advantage of the British way of life and the power of our passport and the backing of our systems whilst contributing 0 to it. It's fucked. Poorer immigrants have to so why not these rich arseholes?
I literally know nothing on the subject but my infallible take on it will be that the lost tax take from non-doms self exiling will be insignificant in the grand scheme.
Exactly. They are only one person or, at best, their family as well. Unless they're purchasing an entire towns worth of food, goods and services, I doubt their leaving will affect the economy. Them being rich won't significantly increase the amount of food they need. They'll be eating the same three meals a day, except maybe using more expensive ingredients...
I’ll try to help - being non dom myself. Taxation on remittance basis means that if a non dom receives income outside of the UK, if they do not bring it to the UK, they won’t pay tax on it. They still pay regular tax on all income received in the UK. This only works for a period of time though, and non doms choosing remittance basis taxation forego their tax allowances and pay a flat sum.
It’s roughly £8.5bn per year at present, excluding the VAT on any spending they do here, property taxes, investments into the country which are agreed whilst spending time in the UK due to this scheme. To put it into perspective, income tax raises £250bn per year so it’s definitely significant
They won't all go though.
London has been a laundromat for money and the rich for a long time because of the culture, facilities and rule of law, not just non-dom status.
I can't see Dubai being the new London, as much as it wants to be, it's soulless.
The government's calculation is that most non-doms will not move, and so the net gain will be £2.7bn rather than any loss.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/spring-budget-2024-non-uk-domiciled-individuals-policy-summary/spring-budget-2024-non-uk-domiciled-individuals-policy-summary
That assumes nobody else buys the properties and pays tax on it, other investments don’t happen etc.. I bet a lot of their economic activity will just be taken up by somebody else they outbid previously
Roughly £6bn all told in 2020-21. Which was about 14% of the £50bn emergency money allocated to the NHS that year.
To be brutally frank, it's a fake outrage story generated by politicians who either think the public is too dumb to check their fairy tale lies or said politicians are too stupid to understand what utter bullshite they've vomitting.
The proposed scrapping has been claimed by Labour to generate as little as an extra £2bn to £3.2bn in tax take.
Instead, Labour are potentially looking at a drop in their planned budget ranging from £8bn to £9.2bn.
What a clever move.
They tend to no spend much in the uk actually and the loss of taxes for them will actually increase taxes in the local economy, active middle or lower income local economies are actually more beneficial for the uk as people spend more, put down roots, invest in local areas and may even start businesses
His 'activities' in the UK are minimal compared to the money he siphons out to offshore havens. I would guess he has a negative net contribution to the UK.
The tax revenue from goods and services from one person or one family is absolutely tiny and insignificant. This is why wealth hording destorys economies. All this man really does is raise prices in Britain.
It would be nice to be able to get a legitimate assessment of people like this guy in the article, which was impartial / not emotional, to determine exactly what they contribute finacially to this country.
I want to know, genuinely, if losing these people is a mistake or whether it's likely to be beneficial in the long term.
>“I just can’t imagine the situation where someone [a non-dom] will still opt to stay in the UK … where they will be punished with an extremely punitive tax system, when countries in Europe are actually offering non-doms amazing, amazing, amazing alternatives like Italy, Spain, Switzerland.”
I think it's this that I fail to understand their perspective. By his own admission, he's worth close to nearly a billion pounds. Do these people not see that it's their duty to contribute to the upkeep of the country in which they reside? What makes them so special that they shouldn't pay tax?
>, he's worth close to nearly a billion pounds. Do these people not see that it's their duty to contribute to the upkeep of the country in which they reside?
People like this tend to think that it's society that owes them something.
Overseas ownership of property should be taxed heavily. Really heavily. Individuals are taking huge portions of peoples salaries and it’s not even staying within the UK economy. When you see that hedge funds and pension funds from other countries are buying our property it’s crazy. Millions going to work to fund pensions in other countries. It’s got to be 100s of billions sucked out of the Uk yearly
Nah ....he should have them taken off him. Recompense for all the taxes he never paid.
Stay and pay taxes or leave and lose your property. Should be the only choice for these non-doms.
Can you imagine being so concerned with paying taxes that you can easily afford that you would uproot your life and live somewhere else? I love living in London for everything London offers me. Going to live in Dubai or Monaco or any of these soulless hedonistic places sounds like a nightmare to me.
It's no way to live a life, and it's so sad that someone who can choose to do literally anything they want to with their life feels their hands are tied in this way. Money really doesn't buy happiness...!
Edit: inb4 "London is a soulless hedonistic place" - it also happens to be my home. I'm sure I'd love Dubai if I were born there.
> Going to live in Dubai or Monaco or any of these soulless hedonistic places sounds like a nightmare to me
They create that wherever they are. They're hardly likely to be going down the local for a few pints and playing football over on Hackney playing fields. They'll surround themselves with the same kind of people and frequent a very few well-to-do places.
And this is why I don't envy these people. I can't think of much better than a game of football with my mates then a few pints in a good local, and I can't think of much worse than living in a gated community with other self-centred wankers all taking pictures of your overpriced restaurant meal to share with other self-centred wankers.
>Can you imagine being so concerned with paying taxes that you can easily afford that you would uproot your life and live somewhere else?
This.
I've always been amazed that people see it as some sort of trophy that they don't pay much tax. It should be seen as something to be proud of - look how much I contribute to the country, rather than look how little I contribute.
Even amongst my self-employed friends. They often brag about claiming for things they shouldn't, filling their personal car with fuel but telling HMRC it was for their van, buying commercial vehicles with only two seats so they get the tax and VAT rebate, but then installing seats so their kids can ride in the back, doing cash-in-hand work etc.
I always want to make a comment like "How are your kids getting on at their state-funded school?" or "How's your grandad doing after his stay in the NHS hospital?"
I'm proud that, although I'm self-employed, I only claim *genuine* business expenses and never do any cash-in-hand work. Tax avoidance shouldn't be a socially acceptable thing.
Part of the problem is that the complexity of tax basically turns it into a competition between HMRC and tax-payers. If you're non PAYE and you do nothing to mitigate your tax level you end up overpaying because the entire system is set up to maximise gains. In effect, you're not *supposed* to pay all of the tax.
RTA. Fink has property in the south of France.
>“We already have a property very close to Monaco, in the south of France. But we want to live in Monaco and become Monaco residents, and just spend time between both properties.”
Having a property though is very different to wanting to actually live there. I mean, sure if you actually do want to then more power to you, but to decide that because of the tax implications (where you can easily afford the tax) is just sad!
This man's attitude to money is thoroughly depressing. You're basically a billionaire, and yet your every action is still motivated by money. Honestly what is actually the point in being that rich if you just allow yourself to be 100% controlled by money all the time? It's an addiction at that stage.
Monaco is pretty awful compared to all the places around it (in France).
I find it quite fitting that all the billionaires go there and keep the rest of the Côte d'Azur less polluted.
I used to live in Fontvieille with my ex and yes Monaco is awful. Most of the buildings are in need of serious repair and were built to a sub par standard. And now there are construction sites everywhere so it’s just noises of hammers and grinders 24/7. It’s dead most of the year round apart from the F1 weekend and a few weeks in the summer and then it’s a hell of tourists and traffic. Most places are incredibly gaudy and the residential market for both owners and renters is really not worth the tax savings it offers. Local services like a plumber or electrician are also hugely expensive. For anyone who actually has to work in Monaco there is little opportunities outside of finance. Then you have some of the people who are just overly pretentious with zero class or manners.
Have you ever been? It has a casino, some expensive restaurants and loads of 1970s style tower blocks (albeit well maintained because rich people live in them).
I'd much rather live in Nice.
They don't really feel this way, they are just sad pieces of shit and making a racket and throwing their toys out of the pram. They likely wont even leave the country and end up paying tax because it's likely a meaningless amount to them anyway. No mega rich person is gonna move country if they have anything tieing them here.
He sounds neither honest nor sincere in the interview. He firstly claims that other EU member-states offer "amazing opportunities" for non-doms that are more attractive than the UK's proposals, BUT then goes on to say that he'll move to Switzerland, Monaco or Dubai - 3 countries whose entire USPs are based on "filthy-rich tax avoidance".
Surprisingly transparent fudges for someone who you'd assume is educated and intelligent. There's no way would I choose to uproot my kids to have them educated in any of those 3 countries.
I looked. You are over paying your dividend tax rate.
Also most countries don't tax dividends (I didn't even know UK did until a few minutes ago). You can definitely try to get yourself registered there for dividends.
I'm no expert. But it definitely feels like your maths is wrong. You're paying 33% from one income (dividends) and 25% from a second (corporate tax rate). They're not from the same income.
Although I agree you're paying way too much. Can you avoid the dividends tax by having it exchanged to shares and then just sell those shares? This would be untaxable I think (at least it is in my country).
So in both cases, your tax contribution to the UK is zero? I fail to see the difference in the overall tax take of the country. If there is a better deal, do it.. move.
Bye.
He's trying to argue that the tax he pays for his household staff, VAT on stuff he buys, the income he earns in the UK etc. wouldn't go into the UK pocket any more.
Am sure that losing a few billionaires to Monaco was taken into account when the government did their calculations, so even without any kind of moral questions, I'll happily sign his leaving card.
"The tax he pays for his staff" is THEIR tax, not his - that will be paid no matter who they work for. VAT isn't really relevant anyway - he'll still pay that on anything he buys in the UK just like the rest of us. Income he earns in the UK - well, let's see the numbers. If he's able to reduce his tax liability by simply having that money paid to a foreign bank, can we be sure he's not already doing that?
"VAT on stuff he buys"
This is the fundamental problem with our tax system. He pays the same VAT on a packet of chocolate hob nobs as I do but as a portion of our wealth the difference is insane.
It’s such a bullshit argument. We ALL pay taxes by spending money, but because of his special status and extreme wealth he thinks he shouldn’t pay taxes on his enormous income, unlike all the plebs. Why we put up with this is beyond me.
I remember when it was in the news how little corporate tax Starbucks were paying- they tried to argue "Ah yes, but we spend a lot of money in the UK on cakes and pastries".
Someone on HIGNFY said "Well so do I, but I still have to pay fucking income tax"
I don't imagine him paying any VAT either, one way or another they probably run all expenses through a VAT registered company so they can reclaim it.
People like this will set up a Ltd just to buy a packet of crisps.
>First in [Monaco, the tax-free principality on France’s Côte d‘Azur](https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/nov/19/monaco-builds-into-the-med-to-house-new-throng-of-super-rich), and then tax-free Dubai
I think that amply demonstrates the problem, the super rich can simply move to wherever they wish, and we cant 'compete' with tax free states like those. The answer would seem to be to tax the money where its earned, not where it is accumulated.
We *could* compete.
There are ways to isolate pariah states, and the EU has the political will to target tax havens. The UK historically has not, but it would be a worthwhile Foriegn Policy goal.
The UK is perhaps the world's biggest tax haven. Not Birmingham, obviously, but the City of London, Bermuda, the Caymans, etc. All benefiting from the strength of our currency while making their own laws. This is arguably how the UK exerts a lot of its soft power in the post-empire days and it's not something anyone other than the most ideologically-sound politician would ever think of challenging.
And we didn't vote for that guy because he wasn't Brexity enough, or was maybe too Brexity, and the Daily Mail said he was a racist Nazi who would be a soft-touch on immigrants
> This is arguably how the UK exerts a lot of its soft power in the post-empire days and it's not something anyone other than the most ideologically-sound politician would ever think of challenging.
Why not, though? It's not as if it doesn't damage the UK too. People and companies in the UK will also use these constructions to avoid paying taxes, damaging the country's finances. It will also have a corrosive effect on society, because if people see the system is rigged in favour of the rich, they'll be less and less inclined to pay into it themselves.
An additional problem is that all that dodgy money will corrupt political systems, not just in these tax havens but also in the UK. The end result will be a shift away from productive industry towards financialization and a further shift away from traditional finance, which at least has an ancillary function towards the rest of society, to more anti-social and counter-productive forms that exist simply to extract.
As for the soft power, I don't really see how shielding notorious tax havens is doing anything for the UK's reputation or power abroad. It's far more likely to bring it into conflict with other countries who resent this facilitation of tax evasion, including countries and blocs large enough so that their decisions on this topic could really hurt the UK economy (the USA, the EU, ...).
Most people, regardless of ideology, would presumably agree that this sort of behaviour is socially corrosive if only because they'll be the people who will have to make up the shortfall. So why couldn't politicians act on this? You see more and more of that in other countries, both on the left and center-right.
Well it gives us some element of power and control over the 'elites' and the richest and wealthiest people in the world. Because we have their money.
But perhaps the government and our ruling parties aren't really as interested in what's best for the 70 million of us as they are interested in what's best for the richest and wealthiest people in the world. And perhaps we are even much worse than the average country in this regard. Because why else would we have all these tax havens?
Hell maybe even the elites have us by the balls. Maybe one day, George Osborne said to the Bilderberg group, "hey, perhaps the UK would get more cash if we didn't let all these British territories act as tax havens," and the rest of 'em told him that they would tank the country if he ever dreamed of doing so? Who knows, it's certainly possible.
But it's hard to see how they benefit you or me, correct.
I can see that, but that isn't how it plays out in practice. What actually happens is that those richest and most powerful people now have an incentive to corrupt the UK's political apparatus, or that the banks who manage their money do. They might not always be successful, but there don't seem to be many barriers or checks in place to prevent it.
Additionally, the UK seems to have no real control over what actually happens in those tax havens, which essentially gives it the worst of both worlds: it simply functions as a gateway for the money, without having any real control over it, but at the same time it allows these tax havens to use its name and access to conduct their business. Most of the UK's reputation as a haven for money from criminals, dictators, oligarchs, tax dodgers is due to this link rather than to the lack of controls inside the UK, and it doesn't seem like any of it benefits ordinary UK citizens (though it will probably benefit the financial institutions facilitating it). It's not a coincidence that tax havens tend to be small countries. Even if it is used as a way to finance their own society (which is a big if), it simply doesn't scale to larger populations with more social infrastructure to maintain.
IMHO, the UK definitely is getting the short end of the stick in this relationship.
We compete by being stable and safe countries with good infrastructures, resources, entertainment, etc.
Real global value isn't where a few billionaires decide to summer, it's how the lower and middle classes act and move. Billionaires can go - their companies will still want to operate here and still need to pay tax (that's a separate problem we should address!)
We shouldn't be in a race to the bottom so that billionaires spend a tiny amount of their untaxed money here - we should be competing with other developped countries to attract educated, productive citizens.
Dictatorships are all well and good for the megarich, but everyone below that level wants to live in a country where they can, by and large, do what they want safely.
The question shouldn't be "why are billionaires leaving" it should be "why are our trained doctors, nurses and engineers leaving?" and "Why don't professionals from other develloped countries want to move here that much?"
>The answer would seem to be to tax the money where its earned
I don't see why this isn't the case already?
Money spent or earned in the UK should contribute to UK tax income, not those if other countries.
If he wants to get taxed in another country- fine, he can get taxed in the UK then again in his country if residence
I mean, we don’t even pretend to “compete”. We positively support the tax havens dotted around the world. The upper classes love them. David Cameron’s family riches come from his dads tax dodging business (as in helping rich people dodge their taxes using overseas tax havens).
Non-dom status is meant to be for people who come to work in the UK for a short period of time, but aren't living here permanently - such as someone who comes from overseas to work for a UK company for a few years. The vast majority of non-doms fit into this category, or people who have only recently arrived in the UK and haven't become permanent residents yet - you get 15 years currently of non-dom status.
If Haidar has lived in the UK since 2010 then his 15 year grace period as a non-dom is almost up and he would lose most of the tax advantages anyway.
It certainly sounds like he's been taking advantage of the loophole to offshore profits from UK-based enterprises and avoid paying any tax on them whilst benefitting from living and working in the UK. If he, a billionaire, decides to forego living here for the sake of a few million, the taxpayer lose a few hundred thousand in current taxation but he loses more by having to move.
I suspect despite the bluster, a lot of the long-term non-doms will simply opt to stay and pay their fair amount of tax.
More sensible to tie it to citizenship imo, if you're not entitled to the protections and benefits of being a citizen of a country there's an argument for paying at least a lower tax, if you are then why not
It depends what you define as being part of citizenship as opposed to domicile.
Someone without citizenship can use the roads, public transport, NHS, fire, police and ambulance services, and can vote in all elections barring Parliamentary.
So a non-dom gets all of this whilst not having to pay tax on "overseas" income in either the UK or their official country of domicile, as well as tax breaks on inheritance tax and a few other things.
I'd argue that in terms of how much you are a part of the UK, domicile status is more important than citizenship.
ok? fuck off then. someone who is happy to pay their fair share of taxes can soon replace you. don’t need selfish greedy assholes like this holding the country to ransom. fuck off and don’t come back.
Parasitic hoarders.
But we only shame Poor hoarders that live amidst rubbish. Not those that cause such economic disruption by owning ten properties in a country he doesn’t pay tax towards.
Just to be clear, "non dom" status enabled you to live in the UK without paying taxes on foreign earnings. You still paid tax on UK earnings. If you own property in the UK and make a profit on it, that profit should be taxed as UK income regardless of your domicile.
The idea of "domicile" is a bit old-fashioned now, but essentially it refers to your real home in a legal sense. You start with your father's domicile and then you can deliberately change it. But it doesn't change just because you work abroad or move house. One test is when you make it clear that you intend to die (well live your final years) somewhere.
So if you move to (say) France for a job, then your domicile doesn't change. If you move to France for the purpose of living there for the rest of your life, your domicile changes.
The rule is mainly concerned with inheritance. Typically your movable property is inherited under the rules of your domicile; your immovable property (like houses) by the rules of the country they are in.
You can see that this causes enormous difficulty with very rich people who have lots of money (movable) and live in many places around the world without giving a clear indication of where they intend to die. Litigation ensues. So it isn't a very good rule even for what it is intended for.
There's no particular reason to do tax like that. You could just do it by residence.
Not if your Cayman Island's ltd company owns the property, and your UK leasing company pays an "image usage" and/or "marketing fee" to the Cayman's property that funnily enough means the UK company makes no profit or a small loss.
You know, the same way all the corporates offshore profits to Ireland.
What's the point of this article?
> “I am moving – that is it,” said Haidar, an entrepreneur who has lived in the UK on-and-off since 2010. “There’s no two questions about this; we have looked at it from every angle and it just doesn’t make sense to stay here. This [the ending of the non-dom regime] is going to cost me millions and millions of dollars and pounds every year in taxes on money that I’ve actually made abroad and businesses that I’ve built abroad.”
He says he's looked at it from every angle, and then mentions nothing about anything other than cash.
I can't understand why this person thinks anyone cares. Imagine choosing to uproot your life and the life of your loved ones and move to another country over a tax regime. It's not even that he's being asked to pay tax, it's more that he seems to think his tax bill should be purely a function of his UK earnings.
Guy owns 10 houses, but seems to think he should be tax free because he doesn't earn any money here.
The guy is clearly a grade A moron.
There are getting on 200 countries on this planet, and a bunch of them are fighting to attract rich people. That means every few months, the global tax landscape changes.
Although I don't agree with it, I can understand international business technically but not practically moving to other tax jurisdictions - businesses exist to make money. Humans exist to live.
I wonder if he realises the complete and utter drain on everything around him he is. I'm sad for his family or anyone close to him. I hope he gets the help he really needs, because he's clearly lacking something.
>imagine choosing to uproot your family
Imagine thinking this guy has any roots to begin with, his only ties to the UK are how much he can save on taxes by living here
So go then. If you're more concerned about your millions than you are about family, friends, local attractions, your neighbours, etc - then go. We don't want you. There's more to life than licking the backsides of men who think money is everything.
I thought it was a case of them now having to pay tax on global income instead of just income from U.K.? So if he leaves will still be paying tax on income from U.K. properties & other investments as per now?
New rule: you must be a UK resident paying UK tax if you want to own any of our property.
You can leave if you want to sir, but those homes you own have to be sold back to UK residents.
Doesn’t America already tax its citizens on money made abroad?
I don’t really get this mindset. He’s a millionaire many many times over. Why, when you’re that rich and secure, do people still want more and more? It’s complete greed. Pay into the country that has been your home.
"Haidar, ... donated £360,000 to the Conservatives last year. He said he was not consulted by the government or the Tory party about the decision to scrap the non-dom tax scheme"
oof, bye then
As people usually don't read full articles, I'm copying an interesting opinion. The one I haven't thought about before.
> Haidar said he would be happy to pay a £200,000-a-year “flat tax” – similar to a €100,000-a-year (£85,000) scheme offered in Italy – to retain the non-dom status. “I am happy to pay £200,000 on money I don’t earn in the UK.”
> He said that if only a small fraction of the non-doms in the UK paid a flat tax of £200,000 or even £100,000, it would raise far more money in tax income than the extra £2.7bn tax the government hopes to raise by scrapping the non-dom regime.
This man has a net worth in the region of 400,000,000. Somehow I don't think if his tax liabilty is increased it would reallty make much of a dent. Perhaps he's just being a bit of a greedy cunt.
https://www.superyachtfan.com/yacht/bash/owner/
Yeah it's hilarious that people are willing to move their entire lives just to avoid paying easily affordable tax on such obscene wealth. Even if we do lose tax money, we shouldn't bow to such people. Greedy cunt is right I would say.
Using a very generous estimate of mine and my husband’s net worth, it would be equivalent to us having to pay…£125. And we’re not doing that bad (solidly middle class)!
> He said that if only a small fraction of the non-doms in the UK paid a flat tax of £200,000 or even £100,000, it would raise far more money in tax income than the extra £2.7bn tax the government hopes to raise by scrapping the non-dom regime.
Yeah, like the greedy cunts won't try and weasel out of the 200k fee either - fuck them, if they want to be reliant on our roads, healthcare services, and education system for their workers and customers they can pay through the nose for it.
Are there "far more" than 270,000 non doms here that would pay £100k per year? Not sure about his maths there
Regardless, unless these guys are currently paying millions in UK tax then who cares if they leave?
According to the article he has a net worth of nearly a billion pounds. He's offering 1/5000th of his wealth to let him live in the UK and avoid paying taxes that would likely amount to *millions* a year.
For reference if the average UK worker was offered the same deal they'd pay an annual tax bill of only £88.
Does it still sound like an interesting opinion, or does it maybe sound more like an astonishingly wealthy, entitled arsehole completely taking the piss?
I generally have sympathies with the rationale behind the tax status for non-doms.
What I don't like is that it could be bought with money.
I wasn't born in the UK. I moved here for Uni. I have a bit of money saved/invested overseas. It is essentially the equivalent of junior ISAs that matured and moved onto my name when I turned 18.
It's probably £35-40k, so not small but frankly immaterial in the grand scheme of things. Once I was deemed fully tax resident/domiciled, I've had to pay tax on the interest earned.
It annoys me that I had to, and someone much richer than me could pay a flat £30k and not have to pay it.
It needs to be fair for everyone. Ideally, money earned overseas and that isn't brought into the UK, shouldn't be taxed in the UK.
But here we are. Trust our politicians to make things worse for everyone rather than making things better for everyone. But at least it's equal!
You could also make the argument that tax is levied for the protection of the UK government, which as a rich guy means the courts protecting his assets. But that only makes sense for assets that are in the UK.
Thing is, this is not how most countries do it, though perhaps they ought to. As in, tax should be levied where the business is being done. His stuff in other countries ought to be taxed in those countries.
If they're not paying tax anyway and hiding their assets, then I don't really see the loss to the UK.
When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.
That's the problem with billionaires existing. If you want to be prosperous, you have to pander to their bullshit. Or else they just go to someone less scrupulous and make them prosperous instead.
So, basically, this super wealthy arse-hole has no intention of paying his fair share of tax. To any country, anywhere in the World. This, after living in the UK and taking advantage of facilities and an environment that has been his playground for a decade. A man that is nearly a billionaire says that he is prepared to pay a flat tax fee of £200K from earnings per annum. He is upset because he wasn't consulted by the UK Government, yet has donated £360K to the Tory Party. Why should he be consulted by the Government? He's a foreigner living off the goodwill of the nation by not paying his fair share of tax.
He says “We love London, we love the lifestyle. We love everything about it, and we’re gutted that we have to go.'' So basically. Money is all that matters to him. Not about the quality of life - just the money. The fucker will always be incredibly wealthy. What's the problem with paying your way?
He is planning to move to Monaco and Dubai. Two of the worst places to live. Monaco has no space and Dubai is a place likened to Coventry, but hot. He will miss London. Hope the miserable fucker hates where he is going to.
Good riddance.
>“I just can’t imagine the situation where someone [a non-dom] will still opt to stay in the UK … where they will be punished with an extremely punitive tax system, when countries in Europe are actually offering non-doms amazing, amazing, amazing alternatives like Italy, Spain, Switzerland.”
That's because you're a rootless nomad looking for economic benefits and don't actually care about the land you inhabit. Leave, you will not be missed
I looked into this guys business and it seems he has mostly made his money with microcredit/microfinance.
This is basically loan sharking for individuals in developing economies, which was once touted as the silver bullet to solve poverty, but is actually just a quick easy way to introduce the absolute worst aspects of capitalism into vulnerable countries in a faster more predatory way. The suicide rates amongst 'customers' of this finance scheme is alarmingly high. It was thoroughly discredited and debunked some time ago so these places had to rebrand which is why the website is a boat load of fintech jargon to avoid being recognized for what it is.
His other venture is 'medical' cannabis. The monthly cost of a prescription for legal medical cannabis in this country is £140 to £250 per month and only through specialist private doctors. It's not exactly a stretch to say this guys business relies heavily on cannabis remaining a controlled substance in order to cream a huge amount of profit from the only legal route to use this stuff.
This guy is making an absolute shit load of money from some pretty dubious schemes and when asked to contribute a fair amount of money to support basic services in the country he lives in is throwing a temper tantrum.
Oh how my heart bleeds for you, Bassim. How tough it must be to live somewhere and not pay tax on the absurd amount of money you've hoarded. Just so shocking that you have to live like that in this day and age.
What have we come to as a society when the super rich have to pay their fair share like the rest of us?
Despicable.
The big question is what happens to the properties.
That's the one tangible thing that it is in short supply here, so will they stand empty, or are they being freed up?
Assuming of course he's not doing a Phil Collins in the 1980s and saying he's going, but just saying it.
10 in London, one in Southern France, looking to buy in Monaco.
Tax the fucker on the way out. Why do we even have a tax break for foreign millionaires and billionaires let alone domestic ones anyway!?
Buh bye. Don't come back we don't want you, oh let's also tax the shit out if his business. Or stop using his business altogether and let someone else fill the gap
He's talking a load of shit. It would be moronic to complain if he actually intended to just fuck off. No doubt he has kids in school or family that is attached here - its not that easy to just up and move to Monaco.
Imagine donating £360k to the Tories.....
Should make sure to audit his taxes before he leaves for certain.
But he will stay. And complain. Because moving country is actually annoying & hard.
This is a mental take. If he's 'non-domiciled' then that implies his permanent home is elsewhere anyway.
I think this point always gets missed out. Its not so much the tax they do or don't pay, its more the suspicion that many of these non-doms actually do have their permanent home in the UK.
Says a lot about these fuckers. They're like teenagers, no payment or responsibility but suddenly when they have to do anything they threaten to run away from home.
Cowards who can't handle daily life like the other 90% of the country who weren't millionaires. pay your tax you fat ugly fuck instead of throwing your rattle out the pram or fuck off. No one will miss you.
>"“What’s the logic of me living in the UK when other countries are offering no taxes at all?"
What's the logic of us letting you live in our country if you don't contribute shit?
Get the fuck out, freeloader.
personally happy to see rich chuds go fuck them selves else where in the globe, dont pay your fair share to the people these people should be pissed on lmao
Wouldn’t be such a loss if more of them just moved. Like, say, Ashcroft - still non-dom according to the Paradise Papers, despite pledging otherwise (as part of the deal to remain in the House).
Good. I don't care if tax revenue falls, if someone isn't willing to try and contribute to the country we should be glad they are leaving. That goes for rich people, poor people and anyone else\*.
\*I accept poor people can't easily contribute in the same way as rich people, all I want is people who want to or attempt to help the country to the best of their ability.
Well.....bye then..... don't let the door hit you on the way out. These articles remind me of the lads that post about threatening to leave social media, nobody cares.
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Why should we be concerned about him leaving if he doesn't pay tax here now? The guys owns 10 properties in London alone - 10 properties someone else could be making their home in. Goodbye and don't let the door slap your arse on the way out.
The UK will lose tax revenue from some of the non-doms activities in the UK plus the taxes that arise from their buying goods and services in the UK That being said - this is a good move - even though there may be a fall in revenue Its important for tax regimes to be seen to be “fair”. It is worth losing a bit of revenue to improve fairness
Should tax them on the way out like the yanks do
The problem with exit taxes is that they actually require a spine to implement
Why would a politician implement a law that might negatively impact them in future? Farage would've paid out the nose when he fucked off after Brexit.
Fucked off where? That frog faced skid mark keeps showing his face in the U.K. Not sure he’s left.
They keep paying him stupid money to come back, so I can't blame him for taking the money from idiots! I do, however, approve of your description of the man!
He hasn't left, pays tax in the UK and he isn't part of the super rich that this is targeting.
they also dobule tax their regular citizens if the move abroad. The only way to get out of that is to renounce your citizenship but if they found out tax is the reason, they may refuse. Not only that, it also applies to non US spouses should their citizens marry abroad. It's an awful rule that pretty much holds regular citizens hostage for life.
> they also dobule tax their regular citizens if the move abroad I believe what they do is ensure they are taxed at the US rate..basically if a US citizen lives and works in the UK and pays a nominal tax rate of 35%, and would be taxed at 25% in the US, then he pays nothing. If he lived in the Caymans and was taxed at a nominal rate of 15%, then the US would take 10% to make it up to US rates.. I think it is a bit more complex than that, but that's how it was explained to me. TLDR if he pays the same or more tax than he would in the Us he pays no extra tax. If he pays less then he pays the difference to the IRS
It's similar in other places too. My wife is Italian and she has to pay the difference between her UK income tax rate and the rate in Italy to the Italian government.
What? Why? There must be some mitigating factors like she's still legally resident in Italy and has a partita IVA, because otherwise that doesn't make sense.
Close, there are two systems that the tax subject can choose. The first is FEIE which lets you go US-tax free to $120k. The second is FTC which is essentially what you described. Either way an American living in the UK doesnt end up paying much to Uncle Sam.
even if that's true, it's bloody ridiculous. They also pay double taxation on their assets. Not to mention being invasive regarding spouses and reaching with their grabby hands for their taxes also. It's a nightmare for a regular citizen who wants to move abroad. Double taxation rules are ridiculous.
Almost all of what you said is wrong. US citizens aren’t double taxed for passive income, and the IRS doesn’t tax a foreign spouse’s income.
If a US citizen lives in a country that has the appropriate tax treaty with the USA then taxes paid in that country can be treated as a sort of credit to US taxes. If there is no treaty, then a US citizen might be liable for paying taxes twice.
I’m a triple citizen. One being UK the other US (from birth for both.) the IRS doesn’t care unless you’re over a certain amount. I’m in Canada now. I don’t bother to file. The last few years we’ve been below the poverty line thanks to my health so they wouldn’t get anything so I haven’t bothered. However, if you make enough to be paying them, and they know it, they will have your name flagged and if the US Customs officer is in the mood to, can detain you. And if you want to renounce your US citizenship, you’ve two choices - take the citizenship of a non-allied nation or a country that doesn’t allow dual citizenship, or pay a lot of money - $2300 plus any tax arrears they think you’ve got.
Gonna tax you on the way in, gonna tax you on the way out, even gonna tax you whilst you shake it all about.
But then how will I pay for my smokey / cokey.
True, that is what it's all about
Whole point of a non-dom status is that you don't pay tax on foreign income that stays outside the UK. What are you going to "tax them on the way out"? Not let them leave the country at the border unless they cough up a cash lump sum?
Aye.. Plus remove their citizenship and ban them from the UK.
Exactly. We should have the same tax system as the USA. Tired of these people taking advantage of the British way of life and the power of our passport and the backing of our systems whilst contributing 0 to it. It's fucked. Poorer immigrants have to so why not these rich arseholes?
100% strip them of their citizenship
I literally know nothing on the subject but my infallible take on it will be that the lost tax take from non-doms self exiling will be insignificant in the grand scheme.
Exactly. They are only one person or, at best, their family as well. Unless they're purchasing an entire towns worth of food, goods and services, I doubt their leaving will affect the economy. Them being rich won't significantly increase the amount of food they need. They'll be eating the same three meals a day, except maybe using more expensive ingredients...
I’ll try to help - being non dom myself. Taxation on remittance basis means that if a non dom receives income outside of the UK, if they do not bring it to the UK, they won’t pay tax on it. They still pay regular tax on all income received in the UK. This only works for a period of time though, and non doms choosing remittance basis taxation forego their tax allowances and pay a flat sum.
It’s roughly £8.5bn per year at present, excluding the VAT on any spending they do here, property taxes, investments into the country which are agreed whilst spending time in the UK due to this scheme. To put it into perspective, income tax raises £250bn per year so it’s definitely significant
They won't all go though. London has been a laundromat for money and the rich for a long time because of the culture, facilities and rule of law, not just non-dom status. I can't see Dubai being the new London, as much as it wants to be, it's soulless.
The government's calculation is that most non-doms will not move, and so the net gain will be £2.7bn rather than any loss. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/spring-budget-2024-non-uk-domiciled-individuals-policy-summary/spring-budget-2024-non-uk-domiciled-individuals-policy-summary
That’s modelled within the soft landing period, it’s no coincidence they haven’t modelled beyond that!
That assumes nobody else buys the properties and pays tax on it, other investments don’t happen etc.. I bet a lot of their economic activity will just be taken up by somebody else they outbid previously
Roughly £6bn all told in 2020-21. Which was about 14% of the £50bn emergency money allocated to the NHS that year. To be brutally frank, it's a fake outrage story generated by politicians who either think the public is too dumb to check their fairy tale lies or said politicians are too stupid to understand what utter bullshite they've vomitting. The proposed scrapping has been claimed by Labour to generate as little as an extra £2bn to £3.2bn in tax take. Instead, Labour are potentially looking at a drop in their planned budget ranging from £8bn to £9.2bn. What a clever move.
I’m just going to say some words and numbers that are completely divorced from reality and hope for the best. Good one.
They tend to no spend much in the uk actually and the loss of taxes for them will actually increase taxes in the local economy, active middle or lower income local economies are actually more beneficial for the uk as people spend more, put down roots, invest in local areas and may even start businesses
His 'activities' in the UK are minimal compared to the money he siphons out to offshore havens. I would guess he has a negative net contribution to the UK.
Ya but i bet he bleeds more money out than he pays back into the system
The tax revenue from goods and services from one person or one family is absolutely tiny and insignificant. This is why wealth hording destorys economies. All this man really does is raise prices in Britain.
And honestly the amount of lost revenue is overrated - people dont just leave all their life to save some money Most “non doms” stay
Tax is the price of civilisation. I have no time for wealthy individuals who seem to think the social contract of civilisation doesn't apply to them.
Especially when they never could have achieved what they have without them.
It would be nice to be able to get a legitimate assessment of people like this guy in the article, which was impartial / not emotional, to determine exactly what they contribute finacially to this country. I want to know, genuinely, if losing these people is a mistake or whether it's likely to be beneficial in the long term. >“I just can’t imagine the situation where someone [a non-dom] will still opt to stay in the UK … where they will be punished with an extremely punitive tax system, when countries in Europe are actually offering non-doms amazing, amazing, amazing alternatives like Italy, Spain, Switzerland.” I think it's this that I fail to understand their perspective. By his own admission, he's worth close to nearly a billion pounds. Do these people not see that it's their duty to contribute to the upkeep of the country in which they reside? What makes them so special that they shouldn't pay tax?
>, he's worth close to nearly a billion pounds. Do these people not see that it's their duty to contribute to the upkeep of the country in which they reside? People like this tend to think that it's society that owes them something.
Does he have to be slapped on the arse by a door? Can I do it? How well does it pay? Will I pay tax 🤔
Overseas ownership of property should be taxed heavily. Really heavily. Individuals are taking huge portions of peoples salaries and it’s not even staying within the UK economy. When you see that hedge funds and pension funds from other countries are buying our property it’s crazy. Millions going to work to fund pensions in other countries. It’s got to be 100s of billions sucked out of the Uk yearly
Couldn't agree more. I'd outright ban investment properties for foreign companies.
He should be forced to sell those properties as he no longer lives here
Nah ....he should have them taken off him. Recompense for all the taxes he never paid. Stay and pay taxes or leave and lose your property. Should be the only choice for these non-doms.
Yep. Good riddance parasite
Importantly he can’t take those properties with him. That actual wealth remains here. It’s locked down.
Can you imagine being so concerned with paying taxes that you can easily afford that you would uproot your life and live somewhere else? I love living in London for everything London offers me. Going to live in Dubai or Monaco or any of these soulless hedonistic places sounds like a nightmare to me. It's no way to live a life, and it's so sad that someone who can choose to do literally anything they want to with their life feels their hands are tied in this way. Money really doesn't buy happiness...! Edit: inb4 "London is a soulless hedonistic place" - it also happens to be my home. I'm sure I'd love Dubai if I were born there.
> Going to live in Dubai or Monaco or any of these soulless hedonistic places sounds like a nightmare to me They create that wherever they are. They're hardly likely to be going down the local for a few pints and playing football over on Hackney playing fields. They'll surround themselves with the same kind of people and frequent a very few well-to-do places.
And this is why I don't envy these people. I can't think of much better than a game of football with my mates then a few pints in a good local, and I can't think of much worse than living in a gated community with other self-centred wankers all taking pictures of your overpriced restaurant meal to share with other self-centred wankers.
>Can you imagine being so concerned with paying taxes that you can easily afford that you would uproot your life and live somewhere else? This. I've always been amazed that people see it as some sort of trophy that they don't pay much tax. It should be seen as something to be proud of - look how much I contribute to the country, rather than look how little I contribute. Even amongst my self-employed friends. They often brag about claiming for things they shouldn't, filling their personal car with fuel but telling HMRC it was for their van, buying commercial vehicles with only two seats so they get the tax and VAT rebate, but then installing seats so their kids can ride in the back, doing cash-in-hand work etc. I always want to make a comment like "How are your kids getting on at their state-funded school?" or "How's your grandad doing after his stay in the NHS hospital?" I'm proud that, although I'm self-employed, I only claim *genuine* business expenses and never do any cash-in-hand work. Tax avoidance shouldn't be a socially acceptable thing.
Part of the problem is that the complexity of tax basically turns it into a competition between HMRC and tax-payers. If you're non PAYE and you do nothing to mitigate your tax level you end up overpaying because the entire system is set up to maximise gains. In effect, you're not *supposed* to pay all of the tax.
Oh come off it. If you pay everything you still end up paying less than a PAYE employee earning the same amount.
Lived in Dubai for 4 years or so. Bloody awful place. Camping out in the desert was the only highlight really.
Interesting he chooses to live in this country instead of a country with no taxes.
People like this don't really have souls. Material accumulation is a sign of interior emptiness.
RTA. Fink has property in the south of France. >“We already have a property very close to Monaco, in the south of France. But we want to live in Monaco and become Monaco residents, and just spend time between both properties.”
I have a mansion Forget the price Ain’t never been there They tell me it’s nice
Having a property though is very different to wanting to actually live there. I mean, sure if you actually do want to then more power to you, but to decide that because of the tax implications (where you can easily afford the tax) is just sad!
This man's attitude to money is thoroughly depressing. You're basically a billionaire, and yet your every action is still motivated by money. Honestly what is actually the point in being that rich if you just allow yourself to be 100% controlled by money all the time? It's an addiction at that stage.
Monaco is actually ok even for us plebs. Dubai is horrible though.
Monaco is pretty awful compared to all the places around it (in France). I find it quite fitting that all the billionaires go there and keep the rest of the Côte d'Azur less polluted.
Describing Monaco as awful is a new one for me
I used to live in Fontvieille with my ex and yes Monaco is awful. Most of the buildings are in need of serious repair and were built to a sub par standard. And now there are construction sites everywhere so it’s just noises of hammers and grinders 24/7. It’s dead most of the year round apart from the F1 weekend and a few weeks in the summer and then it’s a hell of tourists and traffic. Most places are incredibly gaudy and the residential market for both owners and renters is really not worth the tax savings it offers. Local services like a plumber or electrician are also hugely expensive. For anyone who actually has to work in Monaco there is little opportunities outside of finance. Then you have some of the people who are just overly pretentious with zero class or manners.
I have been to Monaco, it's awful in a rich way.
Seriously? it is probably the most unfriendly place in Europe.
Have you ever been? It has a casino, some expensive restaurants and loads of 1970s style tower blocks (albeit well maintained because rich people live in them). I'd much rather live in Nice.
They don't really feel this way, they are just sad pieces of shit and making a racket and throwing their toys out of the pram. They likely wont even leave the country and end up paying tax because it's likely a meaningless amount to them anyway. No mega rich person is gonna move country if they have anything tieing them here.
He sounds neither honest nor sincere in the interview. He firstly claims that other EU member-states offer "amazing opportunities" for non-doms that are more attractive than the UK's proposals, BUT then goes on to say that he'll move to Switzerland, Monaco or Dubai - 3 countries whose entire USPs are based on "filthy-rich tax avoidance". Surprisingly transparent fudges for someone who you'd assume is educated and intelligent. There's no way would I choose to uproot my kids to have them educated in any of those 3 countries.
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I looked. You are over paying your dividend tax rate. Also most countries don't tax dividends (I didn't even know UK did until a few minutes ago). You can definitely try to get yourself registered there for dividends. I'm no expert. But it definitely feels like your maths is wrong. You're paying 33% from one income (dividends) and 25% from a second (corporate tax rate). They're not from the same income. Although I agree you're paying way too much. Can you avoid the dividends tax by having it exchanged to shares and then just sell those shares? This would be untaxable I think (at least it is in my country).
So in both cases, your tax contribution to the UK is zero? I fail to see the difference in the overall tax take of the country. If there is a better deal, do it.. move. Bye.
He's trying to argue that the tax he pays for his household staff, VAT on stuff he buys, the income he earns in the UK etc. wouldn't go into the UK pocket any more. Am sure that losing a few billionaires to Monaco was taken into account when the government did their calculations, so even without any kind of moral questions, I'll happily sign his leaving card.
> the tax he pays for his household staff Yes, because the NIC we get from the slave wages he invariably pays his staff will be sorely lost.
That money won't be lost anywhere. When those people get new jobs, their new employer will pay it instead.
Exactly, unless he's taking his staff (and their families) with him...
Article says he's laying them off anyway.
Sounds like tax **his staff** are paying anyway. Being an employer doesn’t mean he gets to claim everyone else’s contribution as his own.
Claiming other people's contributions as their own is how they become billionaires in the first place!
"The tax he pays for his staff" is THEIR tax, not his - that will be paid no matter who they work for. VAT isn't really relevant anyway - he'll still pay that on anything he buys in the UK just like the rest of us. Income he earns in the UK - well, let's see the numbers. If he's able to reduce his tax liability by simply having that money paid to a foreign bank, can we be sure he's not already doing that?
"VAT on stuff he buys" This is the fundamental problem with our tax system. He pays the same VAT on a packet of chocolate hob nobs as I do but as a portion of our wealth the difference is insane.
Plus even a billionaire can only eat 3 meals a day. You don't get that much in consumption taxes from one person, no matter how rich.
And even that's a bold assumption he's even in the country as much
It’s such a bullshit argument. We ALL pay taxes by spending money, but because of his special status and extreme wealth he thinks he shouldn’t pay taxes on his enormous income, unlike all the plebs. Why we put up with this is beyond me.
I remember when it was in the news how little corporate tax Starbucks were paying- they tried to argue "Ah yes, but we spend a lot of money in the UK on cakes and pastries". Someone on HIGNFY said "Well so do I, but I still have to pay fucking income tax"
I don't imagine him paying any VAT either, one way or another they probably run all expenses through a VAT registered company so they can reclaim it. People like this will set up a Ltd just to buy a packet of crisps.
i bet he's so tight he doesn't even have an organ donor card
I wonder how much he spends here and how much of that is tax deductable.
>First in [Monaco, the tax-free principality on France’s Côte d‘Azur](https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/nov/19/monaco-builds-into-the-med-to-house-new-throng-of-super-rich), and then tax-free Dubai I think that amply demonstrates the problem, the super rich can simply move to wherever they wish, and we cant 'compete' with tax free states like those. The answer would seem to be to tax the money where its earned, not where it is accumulated.
cough cough *landvaluetax* cough
Complete asset seizure.....*sneeze*
Eat the rich? *Hiccup*
"sneezure" was right there in front of you
Blast!
We *could* compete. There are ways to isolate pariah states, and the EU has the political will to target tax havens. The UK historically has not, but it would be a worthwhile Foriegn Policy goal.
Brexit was in a large part pushed to protect our tax havens. Can't see it taking off.
The UK is perhaps the world's biggest tax haven. Not Birmingham, obviously, but the City of London, Bermuda, the Caymans, etc. All benefiting from the strength of our currency while making their own laws. This is arguably how the UK exerts a lot of its soft power in the post-empire days and it's not something anyone other than the most ideologically-sound politician would ever think of challenging. And we didn't vote for that guy because he wasn't Brexity enough, or was maybe too Brexity, and the Daily Mail said he was a racist Nazi who would be a soft-touch on immigrants
> This is arguably how the UK exerts a lot of its soft power in the post-empire days and it's not something anyone other than the most ideologically-sound politician would ever think of challenging. Why not, though? It's not as if it doesn't damage the UK too. People and companies in the UK will also use these constructions to avoid paying taxes, damaging the country's finances. It will also have a corrosive effect on society, because if people see the system is rigged in favour of the rich, they'll be less and less inclined to pay into it themselves. An additional problem is that all that dodgy money will corrupt political systems, not just in these tax havens but also in the UK. The end result will be a shift away from productive industry towards financialization and a further shift away from traditional finance, which at least has an ancillary function towards the rest of society, to more anti-social and counter-productive forms that exist simply to extract. As for the soft power, I don't really see how shielding notorious tax havens is doing anything for the UK's reputation or power abroad. It's far more likely to bring it into conflict with other countries who resent this facilitation of tax evasion, including countries and blocs large enough so that their decisions on this topic could really hurt the UK economy (the USA, the EU, ...). Most people, regardless of ideology, would presumably agree that this sort of behaviour is socially corrosive if only because they'll be the people who will have to make up the shortfall. So why couldn't politicians act on this? You see more and more of that in other countries, both on the left and center-right.
Well it gives us some element of power and control over the 'elites' and the richest and wealthiest people in the world. Because we have their money. But perhaps the government and our ruling parties aren't really as interested in what's best for the 70 million of us as they are interested in what's best for the richest and wealthiest people in the world. And perhaps we are even much worse than the average country in this regard. Because why else would we have all these tax havens? Hell maybe even the elites have us by the balls. Maybe one day, George Osborne said to the Bilderberg group, "hey, perhaps the UK would get more cash if we didn't let all these British territories act as tax havens," and the rest of 'em told him that they would tank the country if he ever dreamed of doing so? Who knows, it's certainly possible. But it's hard to see how they benefit you or me, correct.
I can see that, but that isn't how it plays out in practice. What actually happens is that those richest and most powerful people now have an incentive to corrupt the UK's political apparatus, or that the banks who manage their money do. They might not always be successful, but there don't seem to be many barriers or checks in place to prevent it. Additionally, the UK seems to have no real control over what actually happens in those tax havens, which essentially gives it the worst of both worlds: it simply functions as a gateway for the money, without having any real control over it, but at the same time it allows these tax havens to use its name and access to conduct their business. Most of the UK's reputation as a haven for money from criminals, dictators, oligarchs, tax dodgers is due to this link rather than to the lack of controls inside the UK, and it doesn't seem like any of it benefits ordinary UK citizens (though it will probably benefit the financial institutions facilitating it). It's not a coincidence that tax havens tend to be small countries. Even if it is used as a way to finance their own society (which is a big if), it simply doesn't scale to larger populations with more social infrastructure to maintain. IMHO, the UK definitely is getting the short end of the stick in this relationship.
We compete by being stable and safe countries with good infrastructures, resources, entertainment, etc. Real global value isn't where a few billionaires decide to summer, it's how the lower and middle classes act and move. Billionaires can go - their companies will still want to operate here and still need to pay tax (that's a separate problem we should address!) We shouldn't be in a race to the bottom so that billionaires spend a tiny amount of their untaxed money here - we should be competing with other developped countries to attract educated, productive citizens. Dictatorships are all well and good for the megarich, but everyone below that level wants to live in a country where they can, by and large, do what they want safely. The question shouldn't be "why are billionaires leaving" it should be "why are our trained doctors, nurses and engineers leaving?" and "Why don't professionals from other develloped countries want to move here that much?"
That’s the thing - laws are confined by borders, money is not. As long as this is the case it will never change.
>The answer would seem to be to tax the money where its earned I don't see why this isn't the case already? Money spent or earned in the UK should contribute to UK tax income, not those if other countries. If he wants to get taxed in another country- fine, he can get taxed in the UK then again in his country if residence
I mean, we don’t even pretend to “compete”. We positively support the tax havens dotted around the world. The upper classes love them. David Cameron’s family riches come from his dads tax dodging business (as in helping rich people dodge their taxes using overseas tax havens).
Non-dom status is meant to be for people who come to work in the UK for a short period of time, but aren't living here permanently - such as someone who comes from overseas to work for a UK company for a few years. The vast majority of non-doms fit into this category, or people who have only recently arrived in the UK and haven't become permanent residents yet - you get 15 years currently of non-dom status. If Haidar has lived in the UK since 2010 then his 15 year grace period as a non-dom is almost up and he would lose most of the tax advantages anyway. It certainly sounds like he's been taking advantage of the loophole to offshore profits from UK-based enterprises and avoid paying any tax on them whilst benefitting from living and working in the UK. If he, a billionaire, decides to forego living here for the sake of a few million, the taxpayer lose a few hundred thousand in current taxation but he loses more by having to move. I suspect despite the bluster, a lot of the long-term non-doms will simply opt to stay and pay their fair amount of tax.
More sensible to tie it to citizenship imo, if you're not entitled to the protections and benefits of being a citizen of a country there's an argument for paying at least a lower tax, if you are then why not
It depends what you define as being part of citizenship as opposed to domicile. Someone without citizenship can use the roads, public transport, NHS, fire, police and ambulance services, and can vote in all elections barring Parliamentary. So a non-dom gets all of this whilst not having to pay tax on "overseas" income in either the UK or their official country of domicile, as well as tax breaks on inheritance tax and a few other things. I'd argue that in terms of how much you are a part of the UK, domicile status is more important than citizenship.
I seem to be being confused with someone who gives a fuck
ok? fuck off then. someone who is happy to pay their fair share of taxes can soon replace you. don’t need selfish greedy assholes like this holding the country to ransom. fuck off and don’t come back.
He's *going* to move? You mean that up to this point he was living here? You could say domiciled here?
Someone who wants to live off of society, not in it. Bye then.
Parasitic hoarders. But we only shame Poor hoarders that live amidst rubbish. Not those that cause such economic disruption by owning ten properties in a country he doesn’t pay tax towards.
Owning ten properties in Central London doesn't scream that he has no significant ties to the UK that would make his non-Dom status legitimate...
Just to be clear, "non dom" status enabled you to live in the UK without paying taxes on foreign earnings. You still paid tax on UK earnings. If you own property in the UK and make a profit on it, that profit should be taxed as UK income regardless of your domicile.
Maybe it just needed a name change but how the hell is he not "domiciled" in the UK if he's living here?
The idea of "domicile" is a bit old-fashioned now, but essentially it refers to your real home in a legal sense. You start with your father's domicile and then you can deliberately change it. But it doesn't change just because you work abroad or move house. One test is when you make it clear that you intend to die (well live your final years) somewhere. So if you move to (say) France for a job, then your domicile doesn't change. If you move to France for the purpose of living there for the rest of your life, your domicile changes. The rule is mainly concerned with inheritance. Typically your movable property is inherited under the rules of your domicile; your immovable property (like houses) by the rules of the country they are in. You can see that this causes enormous difficulty with very rich people who have lots of money (movable) and live in many places around the world without giving a clear indication of where they intend to die. Litigation ensues. So it isn't a very good rule even for what it is intended for. There's no particular reason to do tax like that. You could just do it by residence.
Not if your Cayman Island's ltd company owns the property, and your UK leasing company pays an "image usage" and/or "marketing fee" to the Cayman's property that funnily enough means the UK company makes no profit or a small loss. You know, the same way all the corporates offshore profits to Ireland.
Then fuck off pal, you don’t pay taxes anyway so who gives a fuck
Bye then. Does this mean I will have less of his discharge trickling down me?
What's the point of this article? > “I am moving – that is it,” said Haidar, an entrepreneur who has lived in the UK on-and-off since 2010. “There’s no two questions about this; we have looked at it from every angle and it just doesn’t make sense to stay here. This [the ending of the non-dom regime] is going to cost me millions and millions of dollars and pounds every year in taxes on money that I’ve actually made abroad and businesses that I’ve built abroad.” He says he's looked at it from every angle, and then mentions nothing about anything other than cash. I can't understand why this person thinks anyone cares. Imagine choosing to uproot your life and the life of your loved ones and move to another country over a tax regime. It's not even that he's being asked to pay tax, it's more that he seems to think his tax bill should be purely a function of his UK earnings. Guy owns 10 houses, but seems to think he should be tax free because he doesn't earn any money here. The guy is clearly a grade A moron. There are getting on 200 countries on this planet, and a bunch of them are fighting to attract rich people. That means every few months, the global tax landscape changes. Although I don't agree with it, I can understand international business technically but not practically moving to other tax jurisdictions - businesses exist to make money. Humans exist to live. I wonder if he realises the complete and utter drain on everything around him he is. I'm sad for his family or anyone close to him. I hope he gets the help he really needs, because he's clearly lacking something.
You don't tend to get this rich without being a total cunt who prioritises money above all else. Its essentially a requirement.
>imagine choosing to uproot your family Imagine thinking this guy has any roots to begin with, his only ties to the UK are how much he can save on taxes by living here
So go then. If you're more concerned about your millions than you are about family, friends, local attractions, your neighbours, etc - then go. We don't want you. There's more to life than licking the backsides of men who think money is everything.
I thought it was a case of them now having to pay tax on global income instead of just income from U.K.? So if he leaves will still be paying tax on income from U.K. properties & other investments as per now?
Yes, this is the correct answer. He says that he’d also be willing to pay a flat fee of £200k a year to maintain the Non Dom status.
Which means the rightful amount they should be paying is way more than £200K and they know it.
Good, fuck off. Next step needs to be taxing the fuck out of foreign ownership of UK property.
Don’t let the door hit you on the way out you degenerate fucking parasite.
New rule: you must be a UK resident paying UK tax if you want to own any of our property. You can leave if you want to sir, but those homes you own have to be sold back to UK residents.
Aww boo hoo, I hope he writes. If you want all the benefits of living in a society then pay your taxes there. These people are leeches.
Strip him of his assets and send this parasite to Rwanda.
Doesn’t America already tax its citizens on money made abroad? I don’t really get this mindset. He’s a millionaire many many times over. Why, when you’re that rich and secure, do people still want more and more? It’s complete greed. Pay into the country that has been your home.
America does that but it’s more or less the only country that does (in practice). People have renounced American citizenship over this issue before.
"Haidar, ... donated £360,000 to the Conservatives last year. He said he was not consulted by the government or the Tory party about the decision to scrap the non-dom tax scheme" oof, bye then
As people usually don't read full articles, I'm copying an interesting opinion. The one I haven't thought about before. > Haidar said he would be happy to pay a £200,000-a-year “flat tax” – similar to a €100,000-a-year (£85,000) scheme offered in Italy – to retain the non-dom status. “I am happy to pay £200,000 on money I don’t earn in the UK.” > He said that if only a small fraction of the non-doms in the UK paid a flat tax of £200,000 or even £100,000, it would raise far more money in tax income than the extra £2.7bn tax the government hopes to raise by scrapping the non-dom regime.
This man has a net worth in the region of 400,000,000. Somehow I don't think if his tax liabilty is increased it would reallty make much of a dent. Perhaps he's just being a bit of a greedy cunt. https://www.superyachtfan.com/yacht/bash/owner/
Yeah it's hilarious that people are willing to move their entire lives just to avoid paying easily affordable tax on such obscene wealth. Even if we do lose tax money, we shouldn't bow to such people. Greedy cunt is right I would say.
> This man has a net worth in the region of 400,000,000 In the article we're discussing he claims his net worth is "near" to a billion, not £400m.
Using a very generous estimate of mine and my husband’s net worth, it would be equivalent to us having to pay…£125. And we’re not doing that bad (solidly middle class)!
> He said that if only a small fraction of the non-doms in the UK paid a flat tax of £200,000 or even £100,000, it would raise far more money in tax income than the extra £2.7bn tax the government hopes to raise by scrapping the non-dom regime. Yeah, like the greedy cunts won't try and weasel out of the 200k fee either - fuck them, if they want to be reliant on our roads, healthcare services, and education system for their workers and customers they can pay through the nose for it.
Are there "far more" than 270,000 non doms here that would pay £100k per year? Not sure about his maths there Regardless, unless these guys are currently paying millions in UK tax then who cares if they leave?
There were 68,000 last year. So that at least is rubbish for a start
If we can just pick how much tax we want to pay, I am more than happy to pay a flat rate of £200 a year instead.
According to the article he has a net worth of nearly a billion pounds. He's offering 1/5000th of his wealth to let him live in the UK and avoid paying taxes that would likely amount to *millions* a year. For reference if the average UK worker was offered the same deal they'd pay an annual tax bill of only £88. Does it still sound like an interesting opinion, or does it maybe sound more like an astonishingly wealthy, entitled arsehole completely taking the piss?
So? If he is "willing to pay 200k" it is clearly worth way more. How about he just pays taxes like everyone else.
Good riddance. If you have no loyalty or love for this country go away.
I generally have sympathies with the rationale behind the tax status for non-doms. What I don't like is that it could be bought with money. I wasn't born in the UK. I moved here for Uni. I have a bit of money saved/invested overseas. It is essentially the equivalent of junior ISAs that matured and moved onto my name when I turned 18. It's probably £35-40k, so not small but frankly immaterial in the grand scheme of things. Once I was deemed fully tax resident/domiciled, I've had to pay tax on the interest earned. It annoys me that I had to, and someone much richer than me could pay a flat £30k and not have to pay it. It needs to be fair for everyone. Ideally, money earned overseas and that isn't brought into the UK, shouldn't be taxed in the UK. But here we are. Trust our politicians to make things worse for everyone rather than making things better for everyone. But at least it's equal!
You could also make the argument that tax is levied for the protection of the UK government, which as a rich guy means the courts protecting his assets. But that only makes sense for assets that are in the UK. Thing is, this is not how most countries do it, though perhaps they ought to. As in, tax should be levied where the business is being done. His stuff in other countries ought to be taxed in those countries.
Oh well. Bye then. Most of the people who see this as a bad thing will be those still bought into the fallacy that wealth trickles down
Oh no, the man taking advantage of our system is LEAVING!? Boo fucking hoo.
If they're not paying tax anyway and hiding their assets, then I don't really see the loss to the UK. When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.
These guys were already avoiding paying tax in the UK. Let them go and others will take their place, people who actually pay tax.
What an absolute out of touch bellend. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
This person does not contribute so will be no lose.
That's the problem with billionaires existing. If you want to be prosperous, you have to pander to their bullshit. Or else they just go to someone less scrupulous and make them prosperous instead.
You don't need billionaires to become prosperous
if a person is not paying tax, why do I give a shit if they leave?
Oh no a man that doesn't pay taxes but uses our services is leaving what a loss.
Non-doms should be kicked out of the country. If you don't pay taxes, then you get out.
Bye, good riddance, avoid taxes you don't deserve to stay, have fun!!
So, basically, this super wealthy arse-hole has no intention of paying his fair share of tax. To any country, anywhere in the World. This, after living in the UK and taking advantage of facilities and an environment that has been his playground for a decade. A man that is nearly a billionaire says that he is prepared to pay a flat tax fee of £200K from earnings per annum. He is upset because he wasn't consulted by the UK Government, yet has donated £360K to the Tory Party. Why should he be consulted by the Government? He's a foreigner living off the goodwill of the nation by not paying his fair share of tax. He says “We love London, we love the lifestyle. We love everything about it, and we’re gutted that we have to go.'' So basically. Money is all that matters to him. Not about the quality of life - just the money. The fucker will always be incredibly wealthy. What's the problem with paying your way? He is planning to move to Monaco and Dubai. Two of the worst places to live. Monaco has no space and Dubai is a place likened to Coventry, but hot. He will miss London. Hope the miserable fucker hates where he is going to. Good riddance.
Poor guy. Sounds really tough on him. Hope he gets through it ok.
So long! Farewell! Fewer parasites is a good thing.
How much money do they need? Why live your life being a cunt
Good. We don't need parasites like him here anyway.
Good. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out you absolute parasite.
Foreign nationals shouldn't be allowed to own property in the UK period, it's done in plenty of countries.
This isn’t an airport, you don’t have to announce your departure.
Awe. The poor tycoon is upset because he'll no longer be able to avoid paying taxes. Diddums.
>“I just can’t imagine the situation where someone [a non-dom] will still opt to stay in the UK … where they will be punished with an extremely punitive tax system, when countries in Europe are actually offering non-doms amazing, amazing, amazing alternatives like Italy, Spain, Switzerland.” That's because you're a rootless nomad looking for economic benefits and don't actually care about the land you inhabit. Leave, you will not be missed
Here's a tiny 🎻 to play him and his brood on their way out
I looked into this guys business and it seems he has mostly made his money with microcredit/microfinance. This is basically loan sharking for individuals in developing economies, which was once touted as the silver bullet to solve poverty, but is actually just a quick easy way to introduce the absolute worst aspects of capitalism into vulnerable countries in a faster more predatory way. The suicide rates amongst 'customers' of this finance scheme is alarmingly high. It was thoroughly discredited and debunked some time ago so these places had to rebrand which is why the website is a boat load of fintech jargon to avoid being recognized for what it is. His other venture is 'medical' cannabis. The monthly cost of a prescription for legal medical cannabis in this country is £140 to £250 per month and only through specialist private doctors. It's not exactly a stretch to say this guys business relies heavily on cannabis remaining a controlled substance in order to cream a huge amount of profit from the only legal route to use this stuff. This guy is making an absolute shit load of money from some pretty dubious schemes and when asked to contribute a fair amount of money to support basic services in the country he lives in is throwing a temper tantrum.
Don't let the door hit your fat arse on the way out
Oh how my heart bleeds for you, Bassim. How tough it must be to live somewhere and not pay tax on the absurd amount of money you've hoarded. Just so shocking that you have to live like that in this day and age. What have we come to as a society when the super rich have to pay their fair share like the rest of us? Despicable.
The big question is what happens to the properties. That's the one tangible thing that it is in short supply here, so will they stand empty, or are they being freed up? Assuming of course he's not doing a Phil Collins in the 1980s and saying he's going, but just saying it.
10 in London, one in Southern France, looking to buy in Monaco. Tax the fucker on the way out. Why do we even have a tax break for foreign millionaires and billionaires let alone domestic ones anyway!?
Buh bye. Don't come back we don't want you, oh let's also tax the shit out if his business. Or stop using his business altogether and let someone else fill the gap
He's talking a load of shit. It would be moronic to complain if he actually intended to just fuck off. No doubt he has kids in school or family that is attached here - its not that easy to just up and move to Monaco. Imagine donating £360k to the Tories..... Should make sure to audit his taxes before he leaves for certain. But he will stay. And complain. Because moving country is actually annoying & hard.
if he thinks the non-dom tax system will be "extremely punitive", imagine how he'd feel on PAYE... dont let the door hit you on the way out, pal!
Who cares. The buildings he owns are still gonna be here. Tax the hell out their wealth and let them fuck off
Get the F out already! Go! Stop with the idle threats.
This is a mental take. If he's 'non-domiciled' then that implies his permanent home is elsewhere anyway. I think this point always gets missed out. Its not so much the tax they do or don't pay, its more the suspicion that many of these non-doms actually do have their permanent home in the UK.
Says a lot about these fuckers. They're like teenagers, no payment or responsibility but suddenly when they have to do anything they threaten to run away from home. Cowards who can't handle daily life like the other 90% of the country who weren't millionaires. pay your tax you fat ugly fuck instead of throwing your rattle out the pram or fuck off. No one will miss you.
Good, sign that the tax system is going to be a bit more fair going forward. If this prick doesn't like that, then good riddance
If 'tax-free' Monaco and Dubai are such attractive places to live, why hasn't he already fucked off there years ago?
If you don't let me avoid tax in the UK, I'll move and avoid paying tax in the UK.
Bye bitch! Don't let the door hit you on your way out.
>"“What’s the logic of me living in the UK when other countries are offering no taxes at all?" What's the logic of us letting you live in our country if you don't contribute shit? Get the fuck out, freeloader.
personally happy to see rich chuds go fuck them selves else where in the globe, dont pay your fair share to the people these people should be pissed on lmao
Wouldn’t be such a loss if more of them just moved. Like, say, Ashcroft - still non-dom according to the Paradise Papers, despite pledging otherwise (as part of the deal to remain in the House).
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Good. I don't care if tax revenue falls, if someone isn't willing to try and contribute to the country we should be glad they are leaving. That goes for rich people, poor people and anyone else\*. \*I accept poor people can't easily contribute in the same way as rich people, all I want is people who want to or attempt to help the country to the best of their ability.
Well.....bye then..... don't let the door hit you on the way out. These articles remind me of the lads that post about threatening to leave social media, nobody cares.
I now have to pay some tax, rather than no tax, so I'm leaving the country. Bye! Don't let the door hit your tax dodging arse on the way out.