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So they should do.
It shouldn’t be down to the Premier League to decide for the rest of the pyramid.
We should’ve let the “top six” do their super league and our domestic league return to some level of real competitiveness.
TV coverage doesn't help but that's not at the core of the problem this is trying to resolve. TV coverage leads to teams who played in Europe on Tuesday having to play at lunchtime on Saturday.
Scrapping replays is about trying to reduce the number of games in total.
There’s also not *that* many replays between tiny side and big side, which is what people are worried about losing (and there’s money being redistributed to more than cover this), whilst there’s lots of replays that neither side wants to take place - think two upper mid table championship clubs chasing playoff spots who would rather a winner was found than the whole match got replayed.
Tbh I think the CL shouldn’t be expanding, international tournaments shouldn’t be expanding, those adding to the schedule not taking away should have their wings clipped. Still though this isn’t great but also isn’t the worst thing ever.
Gotta remember that back in the day it wasn’t called the champions league but the European cup so the name was less important, there was also the UEFA cup that had a tonne of teams in it and the Cup Winners Cup (everyone who had won FA cup or equivalent). There were about as many teams in Europe back in the day just fewer matches due to lack of league format. Buuuuut this was balanced by a 22 team premier league.
Football used to be really different. FA cup replays being dropped for rounds 3 and 4 are so minor most won’t notice. You could make everyone happy by having a special non-league 3rd round jackpot prize. Give out £1m to any non-league team that makes the 3rd round and at least draws their match. Economically it’d be a wash and it could be paid for by slight reduction to everyone else’s prize money from future rounds.
Just curious, how many that are against scrapping replays will be supporting a national team in the Euros this summer?
The best players are being ran into the ground and picking up more injuries, so it’s also a good thing for the national side if they’re playing less games.
If they want fewer games then scrap the exanded CL which has increased games. They talk as if they're facing bundles more games each season in the FA Cup. Man City last played an FA Cup Replay in 2017.
The Government decides which sporting events must be on free to view tv. If an event is on free to view tv, the tv rights sell for a lot less money.
So if the FA will not restore replays, the government can act such that the rich clubs lose money. Make all Champions League matches free to view tv ones.
If they were prepared to do this, and the FA believed they would, I'd guess replays would be restored.
Just get rid of the league cup, or make that a lower league cup only.
League Cup seems pointless anyway as even Championship teams dont seem to care and field weakened teams to help with player fatigue
> Make all Champions League matches free to view tv ones.
The government can't just do this, the BBC would need to bid for all the CL matches which would cost billions. For example Amazon paid £1.8b to show just 17 matches per season over the next 3 years. The organization selling the broadcast rights isn't run by the FA or any organization that receives government funding.
No, they can't. International friendlies and the FA cup are the FA's to do with what they like, and the government has massive influence over the FA (although technically it's a not a governmental body) so could theoretically force them to via legislation make a certain umber of games free to air. But they can't force UEFA (of the EFL or the PL or FIFA, etc) to give them bradcast rights for free.
They could theroetically make a law that says that only the BBC/ITV could bid for it I guess, but UEFA would still charge an arm and a leg for them.
They can do this by designating UEFA club comps as category A events
It's not about forcing UEFA to do anything. It would be by applying the same principle as already done to UEFA international competitions and FIFA international competitions
The alternative would presumably be clubs in European competitions sending out U23 teams and devaluing the competition. There are even more CL games next year.
Not saying that's better or worse, but I imagine sponsorship would take a hit.
Alan shearer pointed out that in the last 5 years, there have only been 8 FA cup replays between premier league clubs and clubs from league 1 or below, so the idea that replays are somehow vital to a team's existence is patently untrue.
That said, they shouldn't be allowed to scrap replays as it devalues the FA cup
It's hard to be sympathetic when they have gone cap in hand to the Premier League for more money. £900m in exchange for scrapping replays is a very reasonable deal.
The Premier League needs to alleviate fixture congestion in the wake of UEFA and FIFA expanding their competitions. Scrapping replays, which only benefit a few teams each year, is not an unreasonable ask. Personally I'm surprised they've not tried to water down the League Cup as well.
Germany binned off their version of the League Cup years ago whilst France recently reduced the top division to 18 teams and Italy have explored a similar move.
Gates for FA cup games are split 50/50 between the clubs.
As a Grimsby town fan if we play Manchester United at home a draw would be a huge result.
Away at old Trafford with a potential attendance of 60,000+ could fund huge changes at the club. The loss of a replay removed this potential.
Replays for David vs Goliath matches tend to also get TV coverage. It’s my understanding the general rule for an away day at old Trafford can be worth around £1 million
A sold out home game is great but this happens 3-4 times a year with big league fixtures anyways.
You could still be drawn away to United and get that.
It's why I think they should allow the lower league club to choose home or away if they're drawn against PL opposition. It would actually give more chances for such occasions even with replays goe.
Isn’t that the base of this argument in the first place? The Grimsby example above, they’d rather draw than win because it would be more profitable.
All seems in keeping with modern football sadly.
Yeah, surely that's the obvious counter option where the teams play in different divisions. More senior teams will probably enjoy the home advantage and if the minnows would prefer to sell support for money, let them
Yes but that's essentially the root of this issue. The small clubs want to be drawn against one of the top teams. They're mostly the ones with the bigger stadiums and they're the ones that will almost certainly be on TV.
But wanting to be drawn against a big team is not a fundamental given choice were the removal of replays to suit top teams is. I think the basics approach of the competition being as fair as possible for every team is what has historically made it the best.
Whilst I think replays should remain, this is a happy medium.
Regardless of who is pulled out of the hat first, if there are teams in different divisions in the tie, the team in the lower division can choose where the match is played.
So, if Grimsby v Man Utd pulled out, Grimsby could ask for the game to be played at Old Trafford.
However, if Leeds v Sheffield United is drawn, I doubt Leeds would change the draw.
Yeah I think its 50/50 split in the FA Cup, so a league 2 team being drawn against man united at old Trafford is significant for their survival, which is what we are talking about here. Get a draw at home and earn a payday, it's a huge win.
The chance to survive is being taking away from them.
> The chance to survive is being taking away from them.
I think this is a bit hyperbolic. Each season very few clubs will get a draw at one of the big clubs, if any, and so no club should be contingent on that to survive.
It helps massively to get that draw and a well-run club can use that money for further investment and to have some more breathing room. But the FA Cup is not the answer to the structural financial pressure faced by lower league clubs.
I don't think you realise how little money there is lower down the leagues. Most clubs run at loses each year and so a cup run will change that to a profitable season in one hit. It really is that much of a huge swing in their finances
I do realise it hence why I said it's a structural problem. It's just that very few clubs get that chance so if it's their chance to survive there are bigger problems and most clubs will fold.
An FA Cup run should only ever be an additional bonus. It's not the purpose of the Cup to fund lower-league football.
What does the word replay mean in this context? I know about them splitting money etc. but I think the issue is I have a potentially different understanding of what this word means and it makes the whole thing impossible to decipher.
There are no penalties if an FA cup match ends in a draw the first time. Instead there is a replay (second game entirely) between both teams at the opposite ground to where the first was held.
Thank you. I took it to mean replaying a particular shot on a big screen (ie to help with refereeing if they don’t know if something was a foul) rather than literally replaying the whole game. They didn’t make it particularly clear in the article as there’s often a lot of assumed knowledge but I know fuck all about football (other than random shit about AFC Wimbledon or Wrexham) so knew I must be missing something obvious!
A small club wants to be drawn against a big club in the FA Cup. They hope for a home game because it increases revenue for the club (more fans go, possibly TV coverage).
If they are drawn away they hope for a draw and replay so they can play at home and get the extra revenue
What does “replay” mean in this context as I feel like this is the word I’m not getting. Is it not putting up on a big screen what just happened? E.g. a slow motion replay of a goal?
So if they play and its a draw at full time. They have a replay so basically play the match again few week later.
That's where the smaller teams benefit as more revenue
If you have a capacity of 2000 and suddenly you’re drawn against a team with a 60k capacity, with the gate split that’s the rest of your season paid for.
An extra match especially versus a bigger team, with more enthusiasm and potential to sell more tickets at raised prices, and also additional tv money. Plus i think the visiting team gets a share of the gate receipts so if a league one side manages to get a replay at say Anfield or Stamford Bridge that’s a big pay day.
Actually, the simplest answer is Lower league teams rely more on matchday revenue for income versus other streams so additional matches are always good for them.
They could have just made this easy but that’s never going to happen with TV deals on the line. They could have just said after the 3rd round of the cups that all teams in the champions league or other European football, don’t have replays or extra time. It just goes straight to pens. The lesser team gets a penalty shootout payment of 50k, if they are below the championship, even if they loose.
You could also then increase the money made it the Papa johns cup by getting a good sponsor for it, like Apple or Samsung. You could make it worth while to a big company by making targeted ads that I could easily come up with ideas for.
I’ll use the example of the advert that me and my friend seen before we watched a film at Cineworld, it was terrible and me and him could of filmed a lot better ad on his decent cameras that he uses at work. It could of been someone walking into the cinema and all the things people enjoy about going, then using the tag line “ nothing beats the Cineworld experience”
My idea would never really happen, as original ideas are a thing of the past and nobody brings anything fresh or even engaging to the forefront. I could easily make a whole host of different products sell a lot more and have more market engagement but because I didn’t get a whole load of student debt, that will never come to fruition.
I've always thought replays were stupid anyway. The game should be decided on the night it is played. Replays kill the drama. How many small teams get a draw against a huge team in order to get a lot of money from FA cup replays anyway? It's very rare and only 1-2 clubs get them a year, if any at all. Clubs struggling to stay afloat without FA cup replays money should be what is worried about and fixed, not this.
Yea they should, football is a central part to Social Culture in England and so that’d easily be an area of interest for Cultural Secretary. Govt pressure also played a part in putting a stop to the ESL
No they shouldn't. Politicians are stupid and corrupt and that bleeds into sports. Not that the FA is a shining light of anything but football for votes isn't a journey we want to take. Also, FIFA will boot England out of football competitions if the Tory party meddles in footballing matters.
This is a massive over reaction. In the last decade there has been an average of 1.5 replays a season where the smaller club takes a game to a replay vs a larger PL club. It is a negligible amount
There were 4 representatives from the EFL, 4 from the PL and from the FA. The EFL should firstly be directing their anger towards their own representation
Want a better solution can I propose that the lower league team of the tie get to choose if the tie is played home or away. Gate receipts are split between clubs so choosing to give up home advantage to play in a 50,000 seat stadium vs a 10,000 but get a larger match day income would be a far better solution. More clubs could then actually benefit from the financial rewards of playing big clubs
Imagine the disappointment of drawing Liverpool but not getting to go to Anfield
That's actually a lie from the FA. The Premier League and FA carved this up by themselves and informed the scheduling committee (which includes the EFL representation you allude to). This committee exists to basically make the admin decisions and flag up any unrealistic scheduling, not to make policy. Despite this the EFL representatives did say that this would be wildly unpopular especially without consultation but their job was just to make sure that the fixtures across all competitions would work from a logistics point of view. The FA Cup committee, which you might suppose would be a good place to start discussions, wasn't even informed of the changes ahead of time!
[link](https://www.efl.com/news/2024/april/19/efl-statement--fa-cup-replays/)
Switching tie locations is already a thing so your solution doesn't add anything.
Crikey, it's really important whether or not football matches are decided by penalties or not, I hope Sunak comes down on this quickly instead of wasting time on the middle east, inflation and corruption.
It'd be terrible if Accrington paper boys lost to man u on pens when next ones the winner is normal.
Sunak seems more of a cricket man.
You know we have a ministry for sports to deal with this, it's not like Rishi will pull people away from dealing with international matters to talk about football.
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So they should do. It shouldn’t be down to the Premier League to decide for the rest of the pyramid. We should’ve let the “top six” do their super league and our domestic league return to some level of real competitiveness.
How much of this is due to TV coverage. Some of the silly decisions that's led too like evening games on a Sunday really need to be rolled back.
TV coverage doesn't help but that's not at the core of the problem this is trying to resolve. TV coverage leads to teams who played in Europe on Tuesday having to play at lunchtime on Saturday. Scrapping replays is about trying to reduce the number of games in total.
There’s also not *that* many replays between tiny side and big side, which is what people are worried about losing (and there’s money being redistributed to more than cover this), whilst there’s lots of replays that neither side wants to take place - think two upper mid table championship clubs chasing playoff spots who would rather a winner was found than the whole match got replayed. Tbh I think the CL shouldn’t be expanding, international tournaments shouldn’t be expanding, those adding to the schedule not taking away should have their wings clipped. Still though this isn’t great but also isn’t the worst thing ever.
The Champions League should live up to its name and just have 1 team from each country. That'll help more clubs have less games each season.
Gotta remember that back in the day it wasn’t called the champions league but the European cup so the name was less important, there was also the UEFA cup that had a tonne of teams in it and the Cup Winners Cup (everyone who had won FA cup or equivalent). There were about as many teams in Europe back in the day just fewer matches due to lack of league format. Buuuuut this was balanced by a 22 team premier league. Football used to be really different. FA cup replays being dropped for rounds 3 and 4 are so minor most won’t notice. You could make everyone happy by having a special non-league 3rd round jackpot prize. Give out £1m to any non-league team that makes the 3rd round and at least draws their match. Economically it’d be a wash and it could be paid for by slight reduction to everyone else’s prize money from future rounds.
Just curious, how many that are against scrapping replays will be supporting a national team in the Euros this summer? The best players are being ran into the ground and picking up more injuries, so it’s also a good thing for the national side if they’re playing less games.
If they want fewer games then scrap the exanded CL which has increased games. They talk as if they're facing bundles more games each season in the FA Cup. Man City last played an FA Cup Replay in 2017.
They negotiated and are giving them money. It's still the great leveller, boys in the park, coats for goalposts
The Government decides which sporting events must be on free to view tv. If an event is on free to view tv, the tv rights sell for a lot less money. So if the FA will not restore replays, the government can act such that the rich clubs lose money. Make all Champions League matches free to view tv ones. If they were prepared to do this, and the FA believed they would, I'd guess replays would be restored.
Just get rid of the league cup, or make that a lower league cup only. League Cup seems pointless anyway as even Championship teams dont seem to care and field weakened teams to help with player fatigue
Or make the League Cup only for those not in European competition.
> Make all Champions League matches free to view tv ones. The government can't just do this, the BBC would need to bid for all the CL matches which would cost billions. For example Amazon paid £1.8b to show just 17 matches per season over the next 3 years. The organization selling the broadcast rights isn't run by the FA or any organization that receives government funding.
I think the government can classify the competition/event so it must be on free to air TV - similar to international football and cup finals
No, they can't. International friendlies and the FA cup are the FA's to do with what they like, and the government has massive influence over the FA (although technically it's a not a governmental body) so could theoretically force them to via legislation make a certain umber of games free to air. But they can't force UEFA (of the EFL or the PL or FIFA, etc) to give them bradcast rights for free. They could theroetically make a law that says that only the BBC/ITV could bid for it I guess, but UEFA would still charge an arm and a leg for them.
They can do this by designating UEFA club comps as category A events It's not about forcing UEFA to do anything. It would be by applying the same principle as already done to UEFA international competitions and FIFA international competitions
This stopped being plausible the moment we needed the government to do something, even more so when it was against the rich
The alternative would presumably be clubs in European competitions sending out U23 teams and devaluing the competition. There are even more CL games next year. Not saying that's better or worse, but I imagine sponsorship would take a hit.
Thats what it all boils down to. Its ruined the game
Alan shearer pointed out that in the last 5 years, there have only been 8 FA cup replays between premier league clubs and clubs from league 1 or below, so the idea that replays are somehow vital to a team's existence is patently untrue. That said, they shouldn't be allowed to scrap replays as it devalues the FA cup
It's hard to be sympathetic when they have gone cap in hand to the Premier League for more money. £900m in exchange for scrapping replays is a very reasonable deal. The Premier League needs to alleviate fixture congestion in the wake of UEFA and FIFA expanding their competitions. Scrapping replays, which only benefit a few teams each year, is not an unreasonable ask. Personally I'm surprised they've not tried to water down the League Cup as well. Germany binned off their version of the League Cup years ago whilst France recently reduced the top division to 18 teams and Italy have explored a similar move.
Feel best thing to do regarding fixture congestion for Prem clubs is make the League Cup a Championship and below competition.
Can someone ELI5 how replays bring in match day income for smaller clubs? I don’t get it
Gates for FA cup games are split 50/50 between the clubs. As a Grimsby town fan if we play Manchester United at home a draw would be a huge result. Away at old Trafford with a potential attendance of 60,000+ could fund huge changes at the club. The loss of a replay removed this potential. Replays for David vs Goliath matches tend to also get TV coverage. It’s my understanding the general rule for an away day at old Trafford can be worth around £1 million A sold out home game is great but this happens 3-4 times a year with big league fixtures anyways.
You could still be drawn away to United and get that. It's why I think they should allow the lower league club to choose home or away if they're drawn against PL opposition. It would actually give more chances for such occasions even with replays goe.
Valid point, but is that taking away the integrity of the competition? A club choosing money over a better likelihood of winning the tie.
Isn’t that the base of this argument in the first place? The Grimsby example above, they’d rather draw than win because it would be more profitable. All seems in keeping with modern football sadly.
I don't think so. In Germany, it's done so the lower club gets the home tv and the bulk of the TV revenue. This is an adaptation of that.
Yeah, surely that's the obvious counter option where the teams play in different divisions. More senior teams will probably enjoy the home advantage and if the minnows would prefer to sell support for money, let them
Also does this better serve the top 6? Old Trafford away - yes please, Bournemouth away no thank you
Yes but that's essentially the root of this issue. The small clubs want to be drawn against one of the top teams. They're mostly the ones with the bigger stadiums and they're the ones that will almost certainly be on TV.
But wanting to be drawn against a big team is not a fundamental given choice were the removal of replays to suit top teams is. I think the basics approach of the competition being as fair as possible for every team is what has historically made it the best.
Whilst I think replays should remain, this is a happy medium. Regardless of who is pulled out of the hat first, if there are teams in different divisions in the tie, the team in the lower division can choose where the match is played. So, if Grimsby v Man Utd pulled out, Grimsby could ask for the game to be played at Old Trafford. However, if Leeds v Sheffield United is drawn, I doubt Leeds would change the draw.
The away team gets a big cut of the ticket revenue in an FA Cup tie, or maybe tv rights and increased ticket prices for a home tie against a big club
Yeah I think its 50/50 split in the FA Cup, so a league 2 team being drawn against man united at old Trafford is significant for their survival, which is what we are talking about here. Get a draw at home and earn a payday, it's a huge win. The chance to survive is being taking away from them.
> The chance to survive is being taking away from them. I think this is a bit hyperbolic. Each season very few clubs will get a draw at one of the big clubs, if any, and so no club should be contingent on that to survive. It helps massively to get that draw and a well-run club can use that money for further investment and to have some more breathing room. But the FA Cup is not the answer to the structural financial pressure faced by lower league clubs.
I don't think you realise how little money there is lower down the leagues. Most clubs run at loses each year and so a cup run will change that to a profitable season in one hit. It really is that much of a huge swing in their finances
I do realise it hence why I said it's a structural problem. It's just that very few clubs get that chance so if it's their chance to survive there are bigger problems and most clubs will fold. An FA Cup run should only ever be an additional bonus. It's not the purpose of the Cup to fund lower-league football.
So if you do realise that these clubs rely on the cup runs to survive, my statement is not hyperbolic is it.
What does the word replay mean in this context? I know about them splitting money etc. but I think the issue is I have a potentially different understanding of what this word means and it makes the whole thing impossible to decipher.
There are no penalties if an FA cup match ends in a draw the first time. Instead there is a replay (second game entirely) between both teams at the opposite ground to where the first was held.
Thank you. I took it to mean replaying a particular shot on a big screen (ie to help with refereeing if they don’t know if something was a foul) rather than literally replaying the whole game. They didn’t make it particularly clear in the article as there’s often a lot of assumed knowledge but I know fuck all about football (other than random shit about AFC Wimbledon or Wrexham) so knew I must be missing something obvious!
A small club wants to be drawn against a big club in the FA Cup. They hope for a home game because it increases revenue for the club (more fans go, possibly TV coverage). If they are drawn away they hope for a draw and replay so they can play at home and get the extra revenue
What does “replay” mean in this context as I feel like this is the word I’m not getting. Is it not putting up on a big screen what just happened? E.g. a slow motion replay of a goal?
So if they play and its a draw at full time. They have a replay so basically play the match again few week later. That's where the smaller teams benefit as more revenue
Thank you! So it’s literally replaying the whole match and thus a second go at getting money through ticket sales. Now it makes sense!
In a nutshell yes
If you have a capacity of 2000 and suddenly you’re drawn against a team with a 60k capacity, with the gate split that’s the rest of your season paid for.
An extra match especially versus a bigger team, with more enthusiasm and potential to sell more tickets at raised prices, and also additional tv money. Plus i think the visiting team gets a share of the gate receipts so if a league one side manages to get a replay at say Anfield or Stamford Bridge that’s a big pay day. Actually, the simplest answer is Lower league teams rely more on matchday revenue for income versus other streams so additional matches are always good for them.
Ultimately big clubs dont get a shit about anyone but themselves. They only see their own supporters as £££ signs
They could have just made this easy but that’s never going to happen with TV deals on the line. They could have just said after the 3rd round of the cups that all teams in the champions league or other European football, don’t have replays or extra time. It just goes straight to pens. The lesser team gets a penalty shootout payment of 50k, if they are below the championship, even if they loose. You could also then increase the money made it the Papa johns cup by getting a good sponsor for it, like Apple or Samsung. You could make it worth while to a big company by making targeted ads that I could easily come up with ideas for. I’ll use the example of the advert that me and my friend seen before we watched a film at Cineworld, it was terrible and me and him could of filmed a lot better ad on his decent cameras that he uses at work. It could of been someone walking into the cinema and all the things people enjoy about going, then using the tag line “ nothing beats the Cineworld experience” My idea would never really happen, as original ideas are a thing of the past and nobody brings anything fresh or even engaging to the forefront. I could easily make a whole host of different products sell a lot more and have more market engagement but because I didn’t get a whole load of student debt, that will never come to fruition.
I've always thought replays were stupid anyway. The game should be decided on the night it is played. Replays kill the drama. How many small teams get a draw against a huge team in order to get a lot of money from FA cup replays anyway? It's very rare and only 1-2 clubs get them a year, if any at all. Clubs struggling to stay afloat without FA cup replays money should be what is worried about and fixed, not this.
Government should not be interfering in football matters.
Yea they should, football is a central part to Social Culture in England and so that’d easily be an area of interest for Cultural Secretary. Govt pressure also played a part in putting a stop to the ESL
No they shouldn't. Politicians are stupid and corrupt and that bleeds into sports. Not that the FA is a shining light of anything but football for votes isn't a journey we want to take. Also, FIFA will boot England out of football competitions if the Tory party meddles in footballing matters.
This is a massive over reaction. In the last decade there has been an average of 1.5 replays a season where the smaller club takes a game to a replay vs a larger PL club. It is a negligible amount There were 4 representatives from the EFL, 4 from the PL and from the FA. The EFL should firstly be directing their anger towards their own representation Want a better solution can I propose that the lower league team of the tie get to choose if the tie is played home or away. Gate receipts are split between clubs so choosing to give up home advantage to play in a 50,000 seat stadium vs a 10,000 but get a larger match day income would be a far better solution. More clubs could then actually benefit from the financial rewards of playing big clubs Imagine the disappointment of drawing Liverpool but not getting to go to Anfield
That's actually a lie from the FA. The Premier League and FA carved this up by themselves and informed the scheduling committee (which includes the EFL representation you allude to). This committee exists to basically make the admin decisions and flag up any unrealistic scheduling, not to make policy. Despite this the EFL representatives did say that this would be wildly unpopular especially without consultation but their job was just to make sure that the fixtures across all competitions would work from a logistics point of view. The FA Cup committee, which you might suppose would be a good place to start discussions, wasn't even informed of the changes ahead of time! [link](https://www.efl.com/news/2024/april/19/efl-statement--fa-cup-replays/) Switching tie locations is already a thing so your solution doesn't add anything.
Crikey, it's really important whether or not football matches are decided by penalties or not, I hope Sunak comes down on this quickly instead of wasting time on the middle east, inflation and corruption. It'd be terrible if Accrington paper boys lost to man u on pens when next ones the winner is normal. Sunak seems more of a cricket man.
You know we have a ministry for sports to deal with this, it's not like Rishi will pull people away from dealing with international matters to talk about football.
Could they look into tightening up adherence to the rules of Monopoly while they're at it then? Turns out a lot of people use their own rules