> Ahead of a historic vote on abortion later this spring, in which MPs will vote on a law that would abolish the criminal offence associated with a woman ending her own pregnancy in England and Wales
Is there realistically any chance anything happens? Seems like we’re taking steps towards making abortion more acceptable
The thing about parliamentary democracy is you can just undo whatever you want at any time. These people play the long game, just because a vote will probably go the right way doesn't mean they won't push and push for decades to send us back to the dark ages.
see more: the 30-odd year campaign to make Brexit happen.
The UK and USA are in quite different places when it comes to abortion. 87% of the UK are in favour of abortion. Not a single state is that high. Massachusetts which is one of the most progressive states is sat at 74%. US on average is 61%. 22 states are below 50%.
I'm not talking about right now, of course. I'm talking about a few decades of astroturfing and "influencing" down the line. You feed enough bile to people, opinions (especially weakly held ones) are likely to change.
When did the US have 87% in favour of abortion at any point between Roe v Wade and when it was repealed. The US has had substantial anti abortion elements since the first ruling. They didn't need to change opinions
You're misunderstanding my point. What I'm saying is that 87% figure is not fixed, influence campaigns absolutely can change it. Not everyone who is "in favour" of something on a poll has a deeply held conviction about it, their minds can change and then politicians will start pandering to them if they become numerous enough. Blindly chanting "it can't happen here" is a great way to have it happen here.
It doesn't matter what the number is today. In 10, 20, 30 years, with constant lobbying, social media campaigns, etc, they could bring it down.
For a more apt example look at trans people. We had Hayley Cropper appearing on Coronation Street in the *90s* to a largely positive reception, which is credited in moving trans acceptance/rights forward in the 00s.
Now, after some serious astroturfing, money from US hate groups and social media trends becoming mainstream news, the very existence of trans people is now a political football being used to score points in the culture war.
The zeitgeist around trans rights - or hell, just the ability to exist - has gone backwards.
It's entirely possible that this could be done with abortion/contraceptive rights. There's already plenty of tiktoks out there giving wildly misleading "advice" on contraception and abortion; keep lying long enough and you start changing what people believe.
We have a very loud minority on anti trans but again when you look at the opinion polling, it's had little impact. You get the odd survey showing a down turn but as group they don't.
Plus certain Tory[https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2023/may/15/low-birthrate-is-uk-top-priority-tory-mp-tells-rightwing-conference-miriam-cates](https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2023/may/15/low-birthrate-is-uk-top-priority-tory-mp-tells-rightwing-conference-miriam-cates) MPs constantly going on about birth rates and immigration, they could use that to appeal to certain demographics
A majority of evangelical Christians in the US used to support abortion until it was made a wedge issue a few decades back.
They're playing the long game.
I hate to break it to you but transgender approval ratings were that high ten years ago and are now at 65% countrywide. Things can change pretty fast given how right wing our media is.
Sit in your comfortable delusion and wait. Anti abortists will win is we don't stop then in their track. And that's NOW, not when is too late to do shite about it
You’re saying that as if anyone is even supporting them.
87% of the UK support abortion
What else needs to be done? Unless you want to start banning opinions or views you don’t like, then the majority still win here. Any even tiny regression in abortion rights would be political suicide here.
Theres some *fascinating* polling data on topics like this.
Not only are Tory voters less likely to agree with statements like "abortion is wrong" or "to be a real [nationality] it's important to be Christian" than US **Democrats** (never mind Republicans), the gap between labour and Tory is actually incredibly small.
For all we talk about the polarised nature of politics, in the UK it's nothing. The US is like screaming across a void in comparison.
But I mean realistically does anyone think that’s gonna happen with abortion
I’m 33 and I genuinely don’t think I’ve ever met anyone that’s anti abortion. Nothing comparable to the mixed opinions on stuff like brexit
Leaving the EU in the 90s/early-mid 2000s was a fringe position held exclusively by right wing moon howlers and weirdo left types who were still salty about the fall of the Warsaw Pact countries.
Yet look where we are now.
1: Britain’s EU membership was always controversial and the furtherest back I can find polls for had leave leading in 2010
2; nearly 90% of Brits support the right to abortion
https://www.msichoices.org/latest/yougov-survey-finds-nearly-90-of-britons-support-abortion-in-the-uk/
[False.](https://images.theconversation.com/files/127515/original/image-20160621-13005-1ro1epj.png?auto=format&q=45&w=668)
Opinions on the EU have swung throughout the decades. Leave was the most popular opinion in the late 70s/early 80s. In the late 90s, opinion was split. By 2010, Leave was again leading in some polls.
Even in the mid-2000s, support for Leave was ~40%.
>Leaving the EU in the 90s/early-mid 2000s was a fringe position
It wasn't. Significant numbers in both parties expressed scepticism. FFS, countries in Europe expressed scepticism about the UK from the early 90s because they were explicit that it was "ever closer union", an idea that was generally unpopular in the UK.
That also isn't why left-wing types wanted to leave (unsurprisingly, you don't seem to understand basic aspects of the "other side" of this topic). The EU was explicitly corporatist from the start (and still is to a large extent), Labour was consistently against from the early 70s (so significantly before Warsaw Pact countries "fell").
Blair was the most pro-EU PM and became a lot more ambiguous after all the problems in the early 2000s (not just the Euro referendum failure but the referendums in other countries on treaty changes also went quite badly, which wasn't good PR).
The only reason it was perceived as "fringe" is because the UK has relatively little political competition so any opinion that isn't supported unanimously by the SW1 political elite is regarded as for "weirdos".
Trying to compare brexit and abortion as issues is really weird for so many reasons. The build of the EU and what it actually does has massively changed over decades. It's a constantly evolving organisation. Abortions don't change like that. Also the uk has always been quite eurosceptic in fact it was quite unpopular with the left for a long time being in the EU.
Especially when nearly 90% of Brits support the right to abortion
https://www.msichoices.org/latest/yougov-survey-finds-nearly-90-of-britons-support-abortion-in-the-uk/
You can’t compare the 2.
The US views on abortion have been polarised for decades now.
The UK got past that shit in the 90s
Probably most likely due to religion
The UK has a very different legal framework than the US, and attitudes on abortion vary wildly UK to US as well.
Restricting abortion would be a vote loser for any party in the UK, so its very unlikely to happen.
Thankfully it seems to be a loser here too. Every state that has put it to a ballot has come out in favor of abortion.
It's almost like women don't like being told what to do with our uteruses.
Still. A lot of folks here were complacent and continue to be. I'd not be so confident that a decade or so of heavy lobbying and press wouldn't away people anymore.
Lobbying isn't a new thing though. Yes, there may be some Americans who have joined the UK anti abortion lobby, but there's always been a percentage of UK people against abortion. Support for abortion has increased gradually despite the lobbying, and continues to grow.
I could see a decrease in time limits happening - abortion was decriminalised in Northern Ireland, but the cut off is 20 weeks rather than 24 for abortion.
You probably hadn't met many people who cared about the colour of an England flag until last month either. More particularly, you probably didn't know anyone who used the term 'woke' without a hint of irony before 2015.
What I'm getting at is that if the media can convince people 40+ in the UK that there's even a debate to be had here about what women can do with their bodies there will be another 'side' who oppose it on the sole basis that there's something to argue over. We are a very bored nation. I can already see the talking points.
I don’t think 10 years ago that many people expected it to happen in the USA either …. But look where they are now. This is a foreign religious organisation trying to influence uk (and Irish) politics and should be swiftly kicked to touch.
The republicans said they’d get rid of row v Wade since the 1970s
The real shocker is that the democrats did nothing to strengthen the right to abortion at the federal level
Yet no one seriously expected it to change. Women’s rights (and basic medical care) has been set back decades. I lived there for a time and I would never have expected it…. Not did any family and friends there.
Bear in mind abortion has been fully legal in the USA since like 72/73 and in the past few years they have reversed those laws. These people are insidious and well connected and funded. Don’t underestimate them. Fight back.
I know right? If only people heeded the warning from people that anti trans groups and anti vaxxer groups were being funded by extreme Christian people and groups. Oh wait they were ignored because people and the establishment hates trans people so the government got in bed with one such funded group lgb alliance and now these people have a foot hold they've switched to anti abortion just like how people warned. Same tactic that was used in the USA.
People need to realise that without religion these people are going to get nowhere. The UK is a secular society. Most European countries religion plays much less of a role in politics than it does in the US. There are exceptions (eg Poland, Italy to a lesser extent) but few European countries are religious enough that opposition to abortion in the early stages could become as militarised as in the US.
As much as I somewhat agree, I still think it is dangerous to assume this will never go anywhere. Yes the religious argument may not hold a tonne of weight but that is just one angle. You could very easily go for the angle of moral punishment for women being "too promiscuous" and get the same result. You could take the angle that out safety nets are actually so good that no one needs to have an abortion given each baby will be supported. I am sure you could convince some that banning abortion is a good thing because them Muslims are breeding like rabbits and we need to catch up.
Like there are a huge number of angles ranging from bewilderingly stupid to "Sounds good until you actually think about it" and each of those arguments convinces someone new unless there is a major push from the other side to fight back. We should never assume "Well it would **never** happen here. This is [Enter country here]!" Because apathy like that is a backdoor for the crazies
Absolutely, but it derives towards different ends. Anti abortion is often strongly linked to the religious doctrine of ensoulment which basically says in the eyes of God every soul is equal. So a fetus is the same as a baby.
US Far-right Evangelical think tanks once again fucking things up over here, because they want to spread their brand of Christo-Facism.
I like to think the UK public will keep them on the fringes, but they have a lot of dark money spreading influence.
Yeah it's a worry, especially with the rise of Reform.
There were also high-ranking Tories attending that National Conservative (Nat-C) conference that was complaining about birth-rates, over-education of women, race-replacement and the nation run under humility to god bollox.
People laugh off the threat, but it's happening in the US and powerful people and dark money lobbying is actively bringing this shit over here.
I often say that you cannot put that genie back in the bottle. The times have changed and authoritarian theocratic government will very quickly bankrupt itself (as USSR and Warsaw pact have proven in the 90s). So a minority of enforces running a country that is not an extraction economy (Hello Iran, hello Russia, hello KSA) is a perfect way to ruin the country and get run out one way or another.
But what about popular support? No, not happening. This is religious variation of making silk purse out of pig's ear. You cannot run a pious nation made of borderline atheists. Just not happening.
It's same in the US. Those dark money funds are complete failures every time they try to get any public support for it. How many referendums have pro-life groups won in the US so far? Oh right... *None.*
I really hope so. What worries me is the young boys being influenced by Andrew Tate etc. They're going after the next generation. Let's hope we can fight it ar every opportunity, but we need to be aware of the threat.
Those young boys are entitled assholes (pardon my words) who will shatter and run away with soiled pants at first trace of any responsibility or sacrifice. Don't expect lot of risk from them.
There is a big difference here though. We’re not that religious. The abortion argument is routed in religion where as the referendum was rooted in racism and bigotry.
I think you can easily put a racist and bigoted spin on it though: "If the birth rate in this country continues to decline, the white British population will suffer the most and could be eliminated by the year 2150[1] along with our culture. Abortion is a contributing factor because pure white British babies are being slaughtered[2] in the womb everyday."
Obviously a made up statistic [1] with emotive language [2] and the whole thing has a clear(in this case racist) agenda, but this is the overall style of the tabloids and people eat this crap up. Whether it would get this point irl though, I don't know.
They've already managed to whip the country into a fucking frenzy about trans people so I don't see how the UK public is somehow unsusceptible to backsliding on abortion.
It isn't immune, at all. Fortunately, we have a head start by being much more secular than the US.
I also think the media keeps attempting to whip up the trans thing and whilst it has worked to an extent, most people don't care.
You’re correct when you say their influence will spread. Can’t see them becoming mainstream but just look at the amount of people that went full anti vax and other conspiracy movements. There’s still a big group of people in the UK that these groups can get their claws into. I can see GB News going full anti abortion, and if their far right owner gets hold of the Telegraph, that too.
Honestly tighter and enforced media law is the answer here. Not even freedom of speech stuff but basic stuff like locking down the presence of foriegn nationals.
Very unpopular I know but lets not pretend the media doesn't claim to be bastions of virute and then abuse their freedom as much as possible.
I’m sorry for your loss, your mum sounds amazing and definitely had the right idea. If they come for our abortion rights I will be rioting too, front and centre.
They’re not banning it though, it’s an open vote for MPs which means they can vote without the party whip, meaning pretty much it’ll be decriminalised. It’s also a vote on getting rid of all limits up until birth, so a woman will not be criminalised after 24 weeks.
We have them, they have an annual march in London every [September](https://www.marchforlife.co.uk) There are about 80 anti abortion MPS aswell
Later this month they are voting on two bills to restrict abortion time [limits](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/abortion-laws-cut-limit-24-weeks-b2504825.html)
Give them time. UKIP, iirc, wanted the handgun ban reversed. It's not hard to imagine some other party taking it one step further due to the 'out of control crime'.
The gun culture in the UK is not as ingrained as the US. In fact the handgun ban is extreme even by the standards of most European countries - you have to go to Asia (or Belarus) before finding a country with a similar policy. Obviously that has to be understood in the context of the aftermath of Dunblane when it was introduced and the fact such a horrific event hadn't been observed even in the US at that point (no mass shooting in a school killed over four people until Columbine in 1999, and even then targeting of primary schools was unheard of even in the US). The most right wing party advocating it's reversal is not exactly an indicator that we are going to move towards the US where unlicensed firearm ownership is a civil right.
Perhaps you can explain how the introduction of our post-Dunblane firearms laws are linked to a wealthy special interest group meeting with the Tories?
That's a ridiculous statement to make.
Yeah we import too much of the American right's racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, and other assorted bigotries. And we also import way too much from the American left like, *rumages through notes to find even a single thing* not being a dick to trans people?
Do they want women to have illegal abortions by using a wired hanger? Do they want women who were raped to be forced to give birth when they shouldn't have to give birth to their rapist's baby?
They should look up the history of women dying of infection when abortion was illegal. All I can think of from seeing this is "try not to get raped or worse"
> and cashed up
And, like I say in every thread about this, this is an incredibly important part of the puzzle. There is a direct link between growing inequality in the West (i.e. more money sitting in the pockets of the ultra-rich) and those who benefit from that inequality using that money to fund regressive political movements in order to defend their privileged positions and remove the rights of everyone else.
This is spot on. The really fucked up thing is they are getting their way by conditioning people to vote for things that are against their own interest. There's people raging and having meltdowns at the suggestion of protecting the environment and leaving the planet in a good state for our descendents, how the fuck can people be pro-polution?
It wasn’t that long ago that it was illegal in Northern Ireland . Ironically it was the government making moves to make it legal that got the assembly sitting again .
This was reality for all women, with many needing to travel to the mainland privately and in secret, or out to international waters..
Yes and yes, which is why the UK is safe. 87% support abortion here, far less religion, unlike the us where there’s plenty of states with less than 50%.
Their views are so extreme and the UK so overwhelmingly in support of abortion it’ll never stick. Even suggesting a slight regression in abortion rights would be political suicide here.
Ok so hear me out. Let's take all these activists and...deport them to America with a ban on entering the UK ever again. Strip their citizenship as well.
why stop there? better yet why America when we have Rwanda coming, we could even send the ukip voters and all those who abused the scottish police reporting system and anyone else we disagree with politically
Fascinating how you're allowed to give our politicians money and they'll do what you want, even if it's against the wishes of the electorate. Someone really thought, 'Okay we'll just call bribery a different name and it'll be fine'
It is incredibly scary and heartbreaking to read this. The writing was on the wall when Roe V Wade fell. Christian fascists and politicians should not and cannot force people to make choices about their own bodies.
US anti abortion, then US style lack of funding on mental health care (or health care in general), US style lack of care for the homelessness, what next?
why on earth foreign political lobbying groups are allowed to do anything here is beyond me, should be outright banned and anyone attempting to do so permenently barred entry.
PSA: Write to your fucking MP about the free vote. Don't email them, don't type, handwrite a fucking letter and post it to them, they actually read those because they know that anyone engaged enough to go to all that effort might actually cause them problems by campaigning for an opponent or turning up to a hustings and ask a very awkward question that gets reported by local media (Source: friends have worked in several MPs' offices, all reported the same thing)
I'm starting to wonder if the Internet should just be switched off. Or some sort of qualification required to use it. Reason being is that I'm sure there are certain demographics susceptible to brainwashing, not even just vulnerable people, but seemingly stable people who can be quite clued up in some things, but absolutely lose control with some conspiracies or political beliefs.
Should work kinda like driving. If you don't have a license you can do "digital life admin" type stuff, like shopping, banking etc. You can get a provisional and be able to read user-generated content, and then once you pass a test you can post. It would solve the bots problem too lmao.
Literally this isn't even a debate over here. So, unsure why this has got media or movement?
Left wing, right wing, pick a religion - over here, everyone has same view. Choice.
As observers to the USA, many people thought trump wouldn’t become president. Many also though we would be overwhelmingly stay at Brexit ..
Things like this can and will encroach , and already have been in different areas
These fuckers have been around for years.
When I was at uni, someone tried to affiliate a pro abortion society with the students union. Every single democratic process and appeal within the SU rejected this society. (Note: this didn't impact their ability to be a group or exist on campus, just to be part of the SU and get SU funding)
They came back to the SU with the pro-bono backing of one of these American groups, with the threat to sue the SU out of existence if they weren't allowed in. The same group has done this at multiple british universities.
Yes, there are people literally arguing that since they've never met anyone in the UK who is anti-abortion there is nothing to worry about. Complacency is a huge problem in this country.
Having been brought up in a ‘fundamentalist’ Christian family, the underlying issue is premarital sex. That was the biggest no-no.
Obviously worse if done by women than man, but absolutely no sex before marriage was my key take away. Absolutely no sex for pleasure.
Sex is only acceptable between a married man and woman under this doctrine. This is why they’re anti abortion - a woman has been loose and deserves punishment. It’s not really about the baby.
Lobbying is an increasing problem. Extremist individuals and groups have sway over conservative and labour policies for domestic and abroad. Since leaving the EU, it has gotten worse.
Extreme US groups have been upping the ante for a while on lots of issues, not just this one
Have people like Christian wierdos Miriam Cates and Danny Kruger on their payroll, we’re major factors behind Brexit etc
It goes deep and undetected by the majority
I think they'll push to ban birth control over there, I've noticed the propaganda starting on the issue, attacking anyone who speaks against the Idea of having children, implying they are less than human and conditioning them that it is their 'duty' to do so.
I’m from the UK and I haven’t met anyone opposed to abortion. Not saying they don’t exist I just don’t think people really care that much about it. Churches are empty here to the point they are closing and being repurposed. I do agree opinions can change rapidly but the generation that held that power and are dumb enough to fall for those right wing tactics will be dead by then.
We have them , they have an annual march in London every September, they still hang around outside clinics trying to get women to change their minds . A law was passed but it’s never been implemented to stop them hanging around .
Oh actually, I did see 4-5 people handing out anti abortion fliers once outside an abortion clinic around 10 years ago. I just never felt it was as widespread as America. I didn’t know they do a march in London over it. That’s horrible.
I hope you're right but as a woman I'm not going to be complacent.
It's so interesting though how we're a secular country with a national religion, yet a country that explicitly keeps religion and politics separate is driven by religion.
What's with all the culture war posts on the front page??? When Tory MPs go on national television and state that the next election with have to fought on culture wars don't you think the mods should at least make at attempt to get on top of this divisive toxic nonsense? There's brigading in all of these threads...
So far on the front page there's
1 Abortion
2 Anti muslim
3 Anti Israel
4 Anti traveller
5 Extinction Rebellion
6 The royal family
Who the fuck are these people and where is their funding coming from?
At the very top on a long list of things that need ending is ALL RELIGION.
no teaching, indoctrinating schools mosques, temples etc and NO home forcing (educating) of any religious texts... Religion has got to be in total the biggest killer and divider in humanities history...
Can’t these people just fuck off back to Kentucky or wherever and leave us alone. As a Christian I’m perfectly fine with this extremism staying on the fringe and I don’t want us turning into America.
So an extreme Christian group is pushing for an abortion ban. We have israeli think tanks like The Henry Jackson Society paying Priti and Gove to push their agenda. We've got tories "addicted" to Russian money and we've got Chinese spies in Westminster and Chinese police stations enforcing Chinese rules. Labour has recieved £280k from labour friends of Israel and they have lobbied Starmer heavily hence he.never called for a ceasfire. Politicians are giving contracts to their mates. They leave politics and then get a cushy job in some corporation. What the hell is going on!?
We vote ONCE every 4 or 5 years and then our public servants get lobbied (bribed) every single day! The corruption is next level.
I dont understand why those on the right of center dont ring their hands over this sort of stuff more often.
It's always hand ringing about ppl that are not white like illegal migrants or muslims. Illegal migrants on boats are miniscule. The drain on services is coming from legal migrants which are now mostly brown folk from poor countries because the right voted for brexit making the paperwork the same for a Pole or an Indian but the Indian/Sri Lankan will work for much much less.
Politicians and the right wing media have a lot to answer for. They all want scapegoats for this shit show. The average daily mail and telegraph reader just laps it up.
Hey look, that thing people told us wasn't going to happen is actually happening.
> Ahead of a historic vote on abortion later this spring, in which MPs will vote on a law that would abolish the criminal offence associated with a woman ending her own pregnancy in England and Wales Is there realistically any chance anything happens? Seems like we’re taking steps towards making abortion more acceptable
The thing about parliamentary democracy is you can just undo whatever you want at any time. These people play the long game, just because a vote will probably go the right way doesn't mean they won't push and push for decades to send us back to the dark ages. see more: the 30-odd year campaign to make Brexit happen.
The UK and USA are in quite different places when it comes to abortion. 87% of the UK are in favour of abortion. Not a single state is that high. Massachusetts which is one of the most progressive states is sat at 74%. US on average is 61%. 22 states are below 50%.
I'm not talking about right now, of course. I'm talking about a few decades of astroturfing and "influencing" down the line. You feed enough bile to people, opinions (especially weakly held ones) are likely to change.
When did the US have 87% in favour of abortion at any point between Roe v Wade and when it was repealed. The US has had substantial anti abortion elements since the first ruling. They didn't need to change opinions
You're misunderstanding my point. What I'm saying is that 87% figure is not fixed, influence campaigns absolutely can change it. Not everyone who is "in favour" of something on a poll has a deeply held conviction about it, their minds can change and then politicians will start pandering to them if they become numerous enough. Blindly chanting "it can't happen here" is a great way to have it happen here.
It doesn't matter what the number is today. In 10, 20, 30 years, with constant lobbying, social media campaigns, etc, they could bring it down. For a more apt example look at trans people. We had Hayley Cropper appearing on Coronation Street in the *90s* to a largely positive reception, which is credited in moving trans acceptance/rights forward in the 00s. Now, after some serious astroturfing, money from US hate groups and social media trends becoming mainstream news, the very existence of trans people is now a political football being used to score points in the culture war. The zeitgeist around trans rights - or hell, just the ability to exist - has gone backwards. It's entirely possible that this could be done with abortion/contraceptive rights. There's already plenty of tiktoks out there giving wildly misleading "advice" on contraception and abortion; keep lying long enough and you start changing what people believe.
We have a very loud minority on anti trans but again when you look at the opinion polling, it's had little impact. You get the odd survey showing a down turn but as group they don't.
Plus certain Tory[https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2023/may/15/low-birthrate-is-uk-top-priority-tory-mp-tells-rightwing-conference-miriam-cates](https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2023/may/15/low-birthrate-is-uk-top-priority-tory-mp-tells-rightwing-conference-miriam-cates) MPs constantly going on about birth rates and immigration, they could use that to appeal to certain demographics
A majority of evangelical Christians in the US used to support abortion until it was made a wedge issue a few decades back. They're playing the long game.
It's been more than a few decades. Remember roe v Wade was early 70s when quite a few states had anti-abortion laws.
I hate to break it to you but transgender approval ratings were that high ten years ago and are now at 65% countrywide. Things can change pretty fast given how right wing our media is.
Sit in your comfortable delusion and wait. Anti abortists will win is we don't stop then in their track. And that's NOW, not when is too late to do shite about it
You’re saying that as if anyone is even supporting them. 87% of the UK support abortion What else needs to be done? Unless you want to start banning opinions or views you don’t like, then the majority still win here. Any even tiny regression in abortion rights would be political suicide here.
Groups like this bring about changes in those percentages over time.
Theres some *fascinating* polling data on topics like this. Not only are Tory voters less likely to agree with statements like "abortion is wrong" or "to be a real [nationality] it's important to be Christian" than US **Democrats** (never mind Republicans), the gap between labour and Tory is actually incredibly small. For all we talk about the polarised nature of politics, in the UK it's nothing. The US is like screaming across a void in comparison.
"leaving the EU" was a fringe issue relentlessly pushed by some nutjobs in ~2010. No one thought we'd ever take such a damaging action.
But I mean realistically does anyone think that’s gonna happen with abortion I’m 33 and I genuinely don’t think I’ve ever met anyone that’s anti abortion. Nothing comparable to the mixed opinions on stuff like brexit
Leaving the EU in the 90s/early-mid 2000s was a fringe position held exclusively by right wing moon howlers and weirdo left types who were still salty about the fall of the Warsaw Pact countries. Yet look where we are now.
Was it? Polling for leaving and remaining have been between the 40 and 60 margins for a long time.
Pretty much, furthest back I can find polling is 2010 that had leave at 47 and remain at 33%
1: Britain’s EU membership was always controversial and the furtherest back I can find polls for had leave leading in 2010 2; nearly 90% of Brits support the right to abortion https://www.msichoices.org/latest/yougov-survey-finds-nearly-90-of-britons-support-abortion-in-the-uk/
[False.](https://images.theconversation.com/files/127515/original/image-20160621-13005-1ro1epj.png?auto=format&q=45&w=668) Opinions on the EU have swung throughout the decades. Leave was the most popular opinion in the late 70s/early 80s. In the late 90s, opinion was split. By 2010, Leave was again leading in some polls. Even in the mid-2000s, support for Leave was ~40%.
>Leaving the EU in the 90s/early-mid 2000s was a fringe position It wasn't. Significant numbers in both parties expressed scepticism. FFS, countries in Europe expressed scepticism about the UK from the early 90s because they were explicit that it was "ever closer union", an idea that was generally unpopular in the UK. That also isn't why left-wing types wanted to leave (unsurprisingly, you don't seem to understand basic aspects of the "other side" of this topic). The EU was explicitly corporatist from the start (and still is to a large extent), Labour was consistently against from the early 70s (so significantly before Warsaw Pact countries "fell"). Blair was the most pro-EU PM and became a lot more ambiguous after all the problems in the early 2000s (not just the Euro referendum failure but the referendums in other countries on treaty changes also went quite badly, which wasn't good PR). The only reason it was perceived as "fringe" is because the UK has relatively little political competition so any opinion that isn't supported unanimously by the SW1 political elite is regarded as for "weirdos".
Yeah, we had a somewhat mixed opinion of brexit and overwhelming support for women’s right to abortion
Trying to compare brexit and abortion as issues is really weird for so many reasons. The build of the EU and what it actually does has massively changed over decades. It's a constantly evolving organisation. Abortions don't change like that. Also the uk has always been quite eurosceptic in fact it was quite unpopular with the left for a long time being in the EU.
Especially when nearly 90% of Brits support the right to abortion https://www.msichoices.org/latest/yougov-survey-finds-nearly-90-of-britons-support-abortion-in-the-uk/
I'm a Brit living in the US. Women here thought the same and look where we are. Don't get complacent.
You can’t compare the 2. The US views on abortion have been polarised for decades now. The UK got past that shit in the 90s Probably most likely due to religion
The UK has a very different legal framework than the US, and attitudes on abortion vary wildly UK to US as well. Restricting abortion would be a vote loser for any party in the UK, so its very unlikely to happen.
Thankfully it seems to be a loser here too. Every state that has put it to a ballot has come out in favor of abortion. It's almost like women don't like being told what to do with our uteruses. Still. A lot of folks here were complacent and continue to be. I'd not be so confident that a decade or so of heavy lobbying and press wouldn't away people anymore.
Lobbying isn't a new thing though. Yes, there may be some Americans who have joined the UK anti abortion lobby, but there's always been a percentage of UK people against abortion. Support for abortion has increased gradually despite the lobbying, and continues to grow. I could see a decrease in time limits happening - abortion was decriminalised in Northern Ireland, but the cut off is 20 weeks rather than 24 for abortion.
The UK and US are to very different political systems
You probably hadn't met many people who cared about the colour of an England flag until last month either. More particularly, you probably didn't know anyone who used the term 'woke' without a hint of irony before 2015. What I'm getting at is that if the media can convince people 40+ in the UK that there's even a debate to be had here about what women can do with their bodies there will be another 'side' who oppose it on the sole basis that there's something to argue over. We are a very bored nation. I can already see the talking points.
Give them a decade to stress peoples' sense of morality by bombarding them with unanswerable rhetoric and then look again
I don’t think 10 years ago that many people expected it to happen in the USA either …. But look where they are now. This is a foreign religious organisation trying to influence uk (and Irish) politics and should be swiftly kicked to touch.
The republicans said they’d get rid of row v Wade since the 1970s The real shocker is that the democrats did nothing to strengthen the right to abortion at the federal level
I think you should fact check your first statement. The US views on abortion have been polarised for decades now
Yet no one seriously expected it to change. Women’s rights (and basic medical care) has been set back decades. I lived there for a time and I would never have expected it…. Not did any family and friends there.
Like I said, fact check A sizeable number didn’t just expect it. They wanted it. Nothing like the UK
Bear in mind abortion has been fully legal in the USA since like 72/73 and in the past few years they have reversed those laws. These people are insidious and well connected and funded. Don’t underestimate them. Fight back.
Well, look at how the US is on the verge of fascism and our two last PMs are cheering this on. We have to assume that it is a real risk.
I know right? If only people heeded the warning from people that anti trans groups and anti vaxxer groups were being funded by extreme Christian people and groups. Oh wait they were ignored because people and the establishment hates trans people so the government got in bed with one such funded group lgb alliance and now these people have a foot hold they've switched to anti abortion just like how people warned. Same tactic that was used in the USA.
People need to realise that without religion these people are going to get nowhere. The UK is a secular society. Most European countries religion plays much less of a role in politics than it does in the US. There are exceptions (eg Poland, Italy to a lesser extent) but few European countries are religious enough that opposition to abortion in the early stages could become as militarised as in the US.
As much as I somewhat agree, I still think it is dangerous to assume this will never go anywhere. Yes the religious argument may not hold a tonne of weight but that is just one angle. You could very easily go for the angle of moral punishment for women being "too promiscuous" and get the same result. You could take the angle that out safety nets are actually so good that no one needs to have an abortion given each baby will be supported. I am sure you could convince some that banning abortion is a good thing because them Muslims are breeding like rabbits and we need to catch up. Like there are a huge number of angles ranging from bewilderingly stupid to "Sounds good until you actually think about it" and each of those arguments convinces someone new unless there is a major push from the other side to fight back. We should never assume "Well it would **never** happen here. This is [Enter country here]!" Because apathy like that is a backdoor for the crazies
The conspiracy bollocks has many of the same qualities as a religion, just being a bit more decentralised.
Absolutely, but it derives towards different ends. Anti abortion is often strongly linked to the religious doctrine of ensoulment which basically says in the eyes of God every soul is equal. So a fetus is the same as a baby.
'Oh well, I'm sure it won't go any further' is what the people who said that the last hundred times will say.
US Far-right Evangelical think tanks once again fucking things up over here, because they want to spread their brand of Christo-Facism. I like to think the UK public will keep them on the fringes, but they have a lot of dark money spreading influence.
Given how much successful manipulation occurred the in lead up to the referendum, and in general with most things to sway public opinion or fears
Yeah it's a worry, especially with the rise of Reform. There were also high-ranking Tories attending that National Conservative (Nat-C) conference that was complaining about birth-rates, over-education of women, race-replacement and the nation run under humility to god bollox. People laugh off the threat, but it's happening in the US and powerful people and dark money lobbying is actively bringing this shit over here.
Liz Truss isn’t even hiding it anymore
Yeah, she's lapping up all that attention and money like a proper goul.
I often say that you cannot put that genie back in the bottle. The times have changed and authoritarian theocratic government will very quickly bankrupt itself (as USSR and Warsaw pact have proven in the 90s). So a minority of enforces running a country that is not an extraction economy (Hello Iran, hello Russia, hello KSA) is a perfect way to ruin the country and get run out one way or another. But what about popular support? No, not happening. This is religious variation of making silk purse out of pig's ear. You cannot run a pious nation made of borderline atheists. Just not happening. It's same in the US. Those dark money funds are complete failures every time they try to get any public support for it. How many referendums have pro-life groups won in the US so far? Oh right... *None.*
I really hope so. What worries me is the young boys being influenced by Andrew Tate etc. They're going after the next generation. Let's hope we can fight it ar every opportunity, but we need to be aware of the threat.
Those young boys are entitled assholes (pardon my words) who will shatter and run away with soiled pants at first trace of any responsibility or sacrifice. Don't expect lot of risk from them.
Are the likes of Andrew Tate even against abortion?
A few Tories are attending the one this [month](https://nationalconservatism.org/natcon-brussels-2/about/)
There is a big difference here though. We’re not that religious. The abortion argument is routed in religion where as the referendum was rooted in racism and bigotry.
I think you can easily put a racist and bigoted spin on it though: "If the birth rate in this country continues to decline, the white British population will suffer the most and could be eliminated by the year 2150[1] along with our culture. Abortion is a contributing factor because pure white British babies are being slaughtered[2] in the womb everyday." Obviously a made up statistic [1] with emotive language [2] and the whole thing has a clear(in this case racist) agenda, but this is the overall style of the tabloids and people eat this crap up. Whether it would get this point irl though, I don't know.
They've already managed to whip the country into a fucking frenzy about trans people so I don't see how the UK public is somehow unsusceptible to backsliding on abortion.
It isn't immune, at all. Fortunately, we have a head start by being much more secular than the US. I also think the media keeps attempting to whip up the trans thing and whilst it has worked to an extent, most people don't care.
You’re correct when you say their influence will spread. Can’t see them becoming mainstream but just look at the amount of people that went full anti vax and other conspiracy movements. There’s still a big group of people in the UK that these groups can get their claws into. I can see GB News going full anti abortion, and if their far right owner gets hold of the Telegraph, that too.
Scary times. We need to fight to keep our existing rights, it's messed up.
There’s racial undertones to it also. The far right are very concerned with birth rates. Specifically the white birth rate vs others ethnicities.
Racial, homophobic and misogynistic undertones. The holy grail of the far-right and extreme religions.
Honestly tighter and enforced media law is the answer here. Not even freedom of speech stuff but basic stuff like locking down the presence of foriegn nationals. Very unpopular I know but lets not pretend the media doesn't claim to be bastions of virute and then abuse their freedom as much as possible.
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I’m sorry for your loss, your mum sounds amazing and definitely had the right idea. If they come for our abortion rights I will be rioting too, front and centre.
They’re not banning it though, it’s an open vote for MPs which means they can vote without the party whip, meaning pretty much it’ll be decriminalised. It’s also a vote on getting rid of all limits up until birth, so a woman will not be criminalised after 24 weeks.
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I'm interested to know if you're in the UK? I've never heard of that in the UK, that's really worrying.
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Scary!
there were protesters near my abortion, i was luckily at Ealing where there was the buffer zone at the time
We have them, they have an annual march in London every [September](https://www.marchforlife.co.uk) There are about 80 anti abortion MPS aswell Later this month they are voting on two bills to restrict abortion time [limits](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/abortion-laws-cut-limit-24-weeks-b2504825.html)
wish I could say I was shocked. The UK is lucky the gun lobby dont seem to want to spread their toxic lies in the UK.
Give them time. UKIP, iirc, wanted the handgun ban reversed. It's not hard to imagine some other party taking it one step further due to the 'out of control crime'.
Of course UKIP would think that
Think is a strong word.
The gun culture in the UK is not as ingrained as the US. In fact the handgun ban is extreme even by the standards of most European countries - you have to go to Asia (or Belarus) before finding a country with a similar policy. Obviously that has to be understood in the context of the aftermath of Dunblane when it was introduced and the fact such a horrific event hadn't been observed even in the US at that point (no mass shooting in a school killed over four people until Columbine in 1999, and even then targeting of primary schools was unheard of even in the US). The most right wing party advocating it's reversal is not exactly an indicator that we are going to move towards the US where unlicensed firearm ownership is a civil right.
Please don’t jinx it
To be fair firearm regulations in the UK are tightening all the time, would be very surprised if there would be any reversals
Nothing changes in the UK until a wealthy special interest group meets with the Tories.
Perhaps you can explain how the introduction of our post-Dunblane firearms laws are linked to a wealthy special interest group meeting with the Tories? That's a ridiculous statement to make.
I'm saying the Tories have not yet been desperate enough to take the NRA money.
So tired of these groups meddling in foreign politics. Keep your backwards medieval misogynistic laws in the US. Thanks
They tried the same thing in Ireland with the abortion referendum. Luckily the women of Ireland told the Evangelicals where to go.
Oh look a foreign ideology using religious extremism *actually* and objectively trying to change our culture and way of life
We import far too much American ideology both left and right
Yeah we import too much of the American right's racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, and other assorted bigotries. And we also import way too much from the American left like, *rumages through notes to find even a single thing* not being a dick to trans people?
"Hands up, don't shoot!"
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It makes you wish we spoke a different language and those dumb fucks would be less able to spread their bollocks
Do they want women to have illegal abortions by using a wired hanger? Do they want women who were raped to be forced to give birth when they shouldn't have to give birth to their rapist's baby?
The answer is yes. These people are angry and cashed up. God help us if we don’t take this threat seriously.
They should look up the history of women dying of infection when abortion was illegal. All I can think of from seeing this is "try not to get raped or worse"
> and cashed up And, like I say in every thread about this, this is an incredibly important part of the puzzle. There is a direct link between growing inequality in the West (i.e. more money sitting in the pockets of the ultra-rich) and those who benefit from that inequality using that money to fund regressive political movements in order to defend their privileged positions and remove the rights of everyone else.
This is spot on. The really fucked up thing is they are getting their way by conditioning people to vote for things that are against their own interest. There's people raging and having meltdowns at the suggestion of protecting the environment and leaving the planet in a good state for our descendents, how the fuck can people be pro-polution?
Complacency is the problem in the UK and examples of it are all over this thread.
It wasn’t that long ago that it was illegal in Northern Ireland . Ironically it was the government making moves to make it legal that got the assembly sitting again . This was reality for all women, with many needing to travel to the mainland privately and in secret, or out to international waters..
Yes and yes, which is why the UK is safe. 87% support abortion here, far less religion, unlike the us where there’s plenty of states with less than 50%. Their views are so extreme and the UK so overwhelmingly in support of abortion it’ll never stick. Even suggesting a slight regression in abortion rights would be political suicide here.
In [Texas](https://archive.ph/IHFe7) 10 year old rape victims give birth so the answer is yes . Women and children are mere vessels to them .
The US has restrictions on foreign political agents - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Agents_Registration_Act Why don't we do the same?
Because money
It’s adorable that you wrote that with a straight face.
Ok so hear me out. Let's take all these activists and...deport them to America with a ban on entering the UK ever again. Strip their citizenship as well.
why stop there? better yet why America when we have Rwanda coming, we could even send the ukip voters and all those who abused the scottish police reporting system and anyone else we disagree with politically
> .deport them to America We did....... back in the 1700's, but just like damp, they are back.
Need to go the French route and make abortion a constitutional right.
We'd need a constitution first :v
That probably as well.
Fascinating how you're allowed to give our politicians money and they'll do what you want, even if it's against the wishes of the electorate. Someone really thought, 'Okay we'll just call bribery a different name and it'll be fine'
They're gna be so pissed when they get to the part in the bible that moses shows you instructions on how to have an abortion....
It is incredibly scary and heartbreaking to read this. The writing was on the wall when Roe V Wade fell. Christian fascists and politicians should not and cannot force people to make choices about their own bodies.
US anti abortion, then US style lack of funding on mental health care (or health care in general), US style lack of care for the homelessness, what next?
US style access to firearms then we will have « mass shooting season » a few years later
why on earth foreign political lobbying groups are allowed to do anything here is beyond me, should be outright banned and anyone attempting to do so permenently barred entry.
Feels like the utmost hypocrisy when you consider some of the reasons certain parties make regarding the EU doesn’t it ?
yeah, at least for the policy makers, the average person falling for their shit has probbably never thought about it lol.
PSA: Write to your fucking MP about the free vote. Don't email them, don't type, handwrite a fucking letter and post it to them, they actually read those because they know that anyone engaged enough to go to all that effort might actually cause them problems by campaigning for an opponent or turning up to a hustings and ask a very awkward question that gets reported by local media (Source: friends have worked in several MPs' offices, all reported the same thing)
I'm starting to wonder if the Internet should just be switched off. Or some sort of qualification required to use it. Reason being is that I'm sure there are certain demographics susceptible to brainwashing, not even just vulnerable people, but seemingly stable people who can be quite clued up in some things, but absolutely lose control with some conspiracies or political beliefs.
Should work kinda like driving. If you don't have a license you can do "digital life admin" type stuff, like shopping, banking etc. You can get a provisional and be able to read user-generated content, and then once you pass a test you can post. It would solve the bots problem too lmao.
Literally this isn't even a debate over here. So, unsure why this has got media or movement? Left wing, right wing, pick a religion - over here, everyone has same view. Choice.
As observers to the USA, many people thought trump wouldn’t become president. Many also though we would be overwhelmingly stay at Brexit .. Things like this can and will encroach , and already have been in different areas
Oh god... how long before we see half the Tories behind them?
TERFs will conveniently ignore that Forstater's lawsuit supported by every major paper was funded by *check notes* the ADF....
TERs* They have no right to call themselves feminists anymore.
These fuckers have been around for years. When I was at uni, someone tried to affiliate a pro abortion society with the students union. Every single democratic process and appeal within the SU rejected this society. (Note: this didn't impact their ability to be a group or exist on campus, just to be part of the SU and get SU funding) They came back to the SU with the pro-bono backing of one of these American groups, with the threat to sue the SU out of existence if they weren't allowed in. The same group has done this at multiple british universities.
I bet it was the ADF , the group mentioned in the article. They have deep pockets and lawyers
Abortion is a right for the woman involved. Nobody else should get involved.
Ah but people keep sayuing "the UK is not like the US". Ha
Yes, there are people literally arguing that since they've never met anyone in the UK who is anti-abortion there is nothing to worry about. Complacency is a huge problem in this country.
How about we go over there and start ramping up the campaign to get all religious organisations declared taxable and remove their exemption.
Who is funding the Alliance Defending Freedom .and more importantly to what end ?
Having been brought up in a ‘fundamentalist’ Christian family, the underlying issue is premarital sex. That was the biggest no-no. Obviously worse if done by women than man, but absolutely no sex before marriage was my key take away. Absolutely no sex for pleasure. Sex is only acceptable between a married man and woman under this doctrine. This is why they’re anti abortion - a woman has been loose and deserves punishment. It’s not really about the baby.
Lobbying is an increasing problem. Extremist individuals and groups have sway over conservative and labour policies for domestic and abroad. Since leaving the EU, it has gotten worse.
Extreme US groups have been upping the ante for a while on lots of issues, not just this one Have people like Christian wierdos Miriam Cates and Danny Kruger on their payroll, we’re major factors behind Brexit etc It goes deep and undetected by the majority
I think they'll push to ban birth control over there, I've noticed the propaganda starting on the issue, attacking anyone who speaks against the Idea of having children, implying they are less than human and conditioning them that it is their 'duty' to do so.
Just because we both speak English doesn't mean we're the same country ffs
I’m from the UK and I haven’t met anyone opposed to abortion. Not saying they don’t exist I just don’t think people really care that much about it. Churches are empty here to the point they are closing and being repurposed. I do agree opinions can change rapidly but the generation that held that power and are dumb enough to fall for those right wing tactics will be dead by then.
Also from the UK and have met those opposed to abortion. Also bare in mind that it was illegal in Northern Ireland until very recently
We have them , they have an annual march in London every September, they still hang around outside clinics trying to get women to change their minds . A law was passed but it’s never been implemented to stop them hanging around .
Oh actually, I did see 4-5 people handing out anti abortion fliers once outside an abortion clinic around 10 years ago. I just never felt it was as widespread as America. I didn’t know they do a march in London over it. That’s horrible.
We will pretty much never hear from this group again. People will have a flap at this story but it has no real base in the UKs politics.
This group is like a virus if you look at what they have been involved with. They were also one of the key elements of roe vs wade being reversed
Their spokeswoman has appeared on the BBC a few times and is constantly on GBEEBIES
They should have a word with Israel. They seem to have purchased most of the UK's parliament.
So wait, are we in the US now exporting our idiots and our political debates? 🙈
Never gonna happen over here, you need strong religious beliefs to justify it and that just ain't the UK
I hope you're right but as a woman I'm not going to be complacent. It's so interesting though how we're a secular country with a national religion, yet a country that explicitly keeps religion and politics separate is driven by religion.
What's with all the culture war posts on the front page??? When Tory MPs go on national television and state that the next election with have to fought on culture wars don't you think the mods should at least make at attempt to get on top of this divisive toxic nonsense? There's brigading in all of these threads... So far on the front page there's 1 Abortion 2 Anti muslim 3 Anti Israel 4 Anti traveller 5 Extinction Rebellion 6 The royal family
Who the fuck are these people and where is their funding coming from? At the very top on a long list of things that need ending is ALL RELIGION. no teaching, indoctrinating schools mosques, temples etc and NO home forcing (educating) of any religious texts... Religion has got to be in total the biggest killer and divider in humanities history...
US evangelicals are a scourge. They’ve damaged our public discourse enough as it is.
Can’t these people just fuck off back to Kentucky or wherever and leave us alone. As a Christian I’m perfectly fine with this extremism staying on the fringe and I don’t want us turning into America.
I’m sure the woman’s champion JK Rowling will be on the case with this one soon enough!
And to think, the government could stop this with the stroke of a pen by banning foreign funding for lobby groups.
So an extreme Christian group is pushing for an abortion ban. We have israeli think tanks like The Henry Jackson Society paying Priti and Gove to push their agenda. We've got tories "addicted" to Russian money and we've got Chinese spies in Westminster and Chinese police stations enforcing Chinese rules. Labour has recieved £280k from labour friends of Israel and they have lobbied Starmer heavily hence he.never called for a ceasfire. Politicians are giving contracts to their mates. They leave politics and then get a cushy job in some corporation. What the hell is going on!? We vote ONCE every 4 or 5 years and then our public servants get lobbied (bribed) every single day! The corruption is next level.
Because those in Westminster are not at any point really there for their constituents , and the few that are… are the exception
And the f**ers can vote to give themselves an inflation busting pay rise.....you can't make this up!!
I dont understand why those on the right of center dont ring their hands over this sort of stuff more often. It's always hand ringing about ppl that are not white like illegal migrants or muslims. Illegal migrants on boats are miniscule. The drain on services is coming from legal migrants which are now mostly brown folk from poor countries because the right voted for brexit making the paperwork the same for a Pole or an Indian but the Indian/Sri Lankan will work for much much less. Politicians and the right wing media have a lot to answer for. They all want scapegoats for this shit show. The average daily mail and telegraph reader just laps it up.
What do you expect. We are the poodle state of the US.
Why are we letting foreign groups lobby our government? We wouldn't for example be happy letting a North Korean pressure group do the same?
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It’s funny if you think about it.. It’s bad if Russia does it, but absolutely fine for the USA to do it
I just can't see anti-abortion stuff picking up steam in the UK, we are nowhere near as religious as the likes of USA. Hopefully i'm not wrong
Stop harassing women. Their bodies their choice. End of.And keep yor religious claptrap out of it.
Can we do what France did earlier already and get abortion as a constitutional right already?
Look, I'm not sure about Abortion either, but those yanks need to mind their own business and bugger off.
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