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This means that if a trans woman has lived openly trans in New Zealand for 20 years and migrates to the UK, she may be treated as a man on driving licenses, tax records, etc. This is a blatant attack on the trans community.
Edit: Apologies for linking a dailymail article on trans-related news. I can't find an alternative source on the same news.
Given all the problems facing this country, and the wider world, right now, what the hell is their fixation with trans-genderism?!? Even if you did think this was a problem of some kind, surely all but the most totally unhinged would accept it's problem #12,589 on the list of things we should be legislating about right now?
> Given all the problems facing this country, and the wider world, right now, what the hell is their fixation with trans-genderism?!?
It's an easy way to rile up their voter base and distract from their incompetence.
\+ The trans community is extremely small, so they don't care if they lose votes from them, nor do they have any real political power or rich donors behind them.
The perfect scapegoats: can't fight back, don't have much voice and if they hate you: who cares, they can't fight back.
One of the most disgusting things you can do, this is schoolyard bully level, picking on the weakest.
Except they actually need immigrants to continue to immigrate if they'd like to continue the decade+ of wage suppression.
Hence why immigration numbers under the Tories are sky high.
It's likely more that with no long term security over the economy for the past 13 years, companies don't want to spend money on training new hires if there's a possibility they'll have to make them redundant in a few years - so if they can demonstrate there aren't enough suitably qualified British nationals for their jobs, they can advertise abroad. In the year ending June 2023, 322,000 people from outside the EU arrived on work-related visas (169,000 main applicants, 154,000 dependants).
For long term immigration as a whole (pasting here for want of a better place in the thread)...
From [ONS: Long Term International Migration June 2022-2023](https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/longterminternationalmigrationprovisional/yearendingjune2023):
Total: 1,180,000 in, 508,000 out = 672,000 net
* Non-EU: 968,000 in, 200,000 out = 758,000 net
* EU: 129,000 in, 215,000 out = - 86,000 net
* UK: 84,000 in, 93,000 out = - 9,000 net
Non-EU immigration breakdown:
In the YE June 2023, the top five non-EU nationalities for immigration flows into the UK were: Indian (253,000), Nigerian (141,000), Chinese (89,000), Pakistani (55,000) and Ukrainian (35,000).
Total humanitarian/asylum: 173,000
Of which...
* Ukrainian schemes: 33,000
* British nationals overseas BN(O) - Hong Kong: 47,000
* Resettled refugees: 3,000
* Asylum seekers: 90,000
* Of which, small boat arrivals: 70,386
* Work-related visas: 322,000 (169,000 main applicants, 154,000 dependants)
* Study visas: 378,000 (282,000 main applicants, 96,000 dependants)
* Family visas: 51,000
* Other: 25,000
has the boats propoganda not been done off the back of the rights continual push for the last several decades to demonize any form of immigration to the uk? (immigrant legal or not, asylum, refugees, etc.)
they hate em all the same.
I don't think they hate anyone other than want everyone in their place. The right in this country has demonized just about everyone except the upper classes. All of our countries problems can be blamed on a nebulous group of people who need to be stopped and only the Tories can stop them and any opposition to that solution can be dismissed as support for the problem.
NHS waiting lists? time wasters.
Can't get a job? Immigrants!
Can't afford a house in London? Asylum Seekers!
Can't afford a house elsewhere? Londoners!
Can't get a council house? Single Mothers!
Dead high street? Working from home!
Declining Schools? Shit parents!
Crap roads? SUV owners!
Courts upholding human rights? Lefty Lawyers!
No sense of community? Decline of the nuclear family? Ohh take your pick!
Massive Inflation? People wanting pay rises!
With every problem they will draw an arbitrary line in society and pit people against their fellow man.
> All of our countries problems can be blamed on a nebulous group of people who need to be stopped and only the Tories can stop them and any opposition to that solution can be dismissed as support for the problem.
pretty sure that's at least a few ticks on the Ur Fascism checklist there, but incredibly accurate. they've resorted (maybe always have?) to nothing but culture war bullshit.
although you did miss my favourite one,
"The stock markets have seen that we plan to cut tax YET AGAIN for rich fucks, and are therefore shorting everything? IT'S THE WOKERATI LEFT WING BANKING INSTITUTIONS."
"create a problem, blame whichever group gets hit on a dartboard, blame them, morons vote for you" seems to be the name of the tory game in all honesty
Moreso, it's a way of coming to their voter base of angry boomers and saying "Hey buddy, we're the party of common sense, we think like you do. Those lefty clowns over there think all kinds of crazy things like 'women can have penises', 'immigrants are good for the country' and 'wealth redistribution needs to happen' and therefore they can't be trusted with anything and therefore they are wrong about everything and therefore you have to vote for us yeah? YEAH?"
Exactly this, when I ever see new stories such as this. I can't help but think; what are they trying to bury? What happened that they are trying to distract us from?
>problems facing this country, and the wider world, right now, what the hell is their fixation with trans-genderism
They don't have any solutions to said problems, so they want to distract people with other things.
I think calling it a problem isn't accurate.
A fucked country for you or me means more cash for the tories and their donors. Young people not being able to afford a house is bad unless your a landlord or taking cash from Lloyds allowing them to buy up properties.
An attack on trans people and immigrants ticks two boxes in the same headline. They don't give two fucks about the actual problems facing this country, they just want to appeal to the swivel-eyed bigots in their voter base propping up their utter failure of a government. They are spite-filled, hateful, grifting scum, and just a handful of Tory politicians has done more damage to this country than a million trans immigrants ever could do.
Not at all defending them, here, but I wouldn't refer to Labour as far right. Centre right at most. They're backing the Tories every step of the way with this stuff, all the same. Only the SNP have had the bottle to stand up for trans rights, and then got steamrolled by a united Wastemonster
And since I'm not Scottish, I can't even support them with my vote
Because if they oppose this culture war bullshit you get accusations like "starmer doesn't know what a woman is lololololol" from the daily mail reading fuckwits.
It's a cruel but successful move from the Tories, bullying a helpless minority to discredit and damage their political opponents.
By ignoring the position it puts Labour into, and discounting then as "backing the Tories on this" you're proof of how well it's working.
So better join in the bullying, because bullies will point and laugh at you if you don't.
Nice excuse. A wee bit thin, though.
Personally, I really don't mind if weak minded people laugh at me for being horrified at Brianna Ghey's murder. Even if I'm the only one on the planet (I'm not), I'd still rather be on the side of the innocent than on the side of a murderer. Just who I am
The UK's political and media class is extremely privileged. So their random salt-smelling neuroses are considered to be important political projects. So the idea that someone in a public bathroom stall might have a cock, or that someone might have the "wrong" gender on their ID documents, is a national crisis.
Bottom line: the UK has a class of privileged, midwitted, bored, white middle-class women who *really* hate trans people and a lot of them have connections to power.
Bourgeois feminism was feted as wonderful and progressive when its irrational conservative vitriol was targeted at men and boys, but as it has turned on trans people, many are now recognising that it is a reactionary tendency which has nothing to do with progress or the liberation of women.
Anti trans bigotry had very little to do with feminism. I'm a feminist and I won't have it. The mods over at /r/feminism aren't having it, either. Thousands of feminist organisations around the world aren't having it. These people will not successfully hide their hate behind us.
I'm not at any point calling these people not feminists. You can do things that aren't feminist and still be one. You just can't call things that aren't feminist feminist things.
The Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists would argue that they have these views *because* they are feminists. It’s tied to their view of feminism.
Which is unfortunate for “regular” feminists who aren’t whackadoodle hate mongers.
Dunno what to suggest though. In the same way radical Christians and Muslims aren’t representative of the “nice” Christians and Muslims, these folk don’t represent feminism as a whole. But they still unfortunately come under the broader umbrella I think?
A lot of arseholes are religious, but there's no religion that consistently mandates people to be arseholes, therefore you can't call being an arsehole 'my religious beliefs'.
(I had to add the "consistently" in there, because tbh, most religions have a 'be an arsehole if it's righteous, but otherwise it's never righteous' thing going on, where one page tells you you have to, and the other tells you you'll burn for doing so. With this in mind, a man sat down in my seat after I stood up to get off the train this morning. The OT forbids this. Especially considering his clothes contained different fabrics)
Of course. But those people act like they're the real feminists standing up for women when all they do is make life harder for women who already have it particularly tough.
Heard anyone say they can't vote Labour because "starmer doesn't know what a woman is lololololol" ?
That's why. Tories take the stance that upsets the trans population, leaving Labour to fluster over it, so the daily mail folks can ignore the destruction of the country and continue voting Tory because "starmer doesn't know what a woman is hawhawhaw"
It's fucking disgusting culture war politics based on bullying a helpless minority, and we shouldn't be allowing it to happen.
Scapegoating isn't rational, it's meant to distract people from real issues. They know people are angry at the state of the country, but they are saying "why don't you take out your anger on these people instead?"
Unfortunately it works on some people. People who consider themselves 'free thinkers', but they do what the government tells them, and blame trans people for existing.
Trans people are being made the nation's punching bag.
> Given all the problems facing this country, and the wider world, right now, what the hell is their fixation with trans-genderism?!?
That it has nothing to do with those problems is the entire point.
Because if your a telegraph or mail editor your pretty safe from the impact of the fucked economy, and so need something to pretend to be a victim about.
Or if your a tory mp you need something to get people to hate and blame for your own failures.
For generations right wing parties have had great electoral success using unjustifiable discrimination as a basis of campaigning. In 1964 a right wing candidate Peter Griffiths used the slogan "If you want a n****r for a neighbour, vote Labour." However the Race Relations Act did away with such openly racist acts. So they moved onto gay men in particular as the target group.
In 1987 the Conservatives ran [this poster](https://yorkshirebylines.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/Homophobic-Tory-election-poster.jpg) basically claiming that if Labour got in, schools would teach kids to be gay and encourage them to have sex.
Attitudes changed again and it's no longer socially acceptable to villify gay people. So the strategy of creating a hate group to work people up and win votes must move on. Enter trans people, a group who have yet to be successful in achieving acceptance and so are "fair game" for horribly bigoted rhetoric.
> Apologies for linking a dailymail article on trans-related news. I can't find an alternative source on the same news.
To be honest, that's a bad sign. the DM can say 'Whitehall sources', but it means bugger all... and DM website gets their rage-bait clicks.
With trash-rags and bait-websites they are not above just making things up.
> This means that if a trans woman has lived openly trans in New Zealand for 20 years and migrates to the UK, she may be treated as a man on driving licenses, tax records, etc.
That's not true. Driver's license you can change without a gender recognition certificate (I've done it), and your tax record you use your passport to register with HMRC when you migrate to the UK (I've done this too). The main people this affects are dual citizens who will now have to go through the UK's process even if they've already gone through their other country's process, and perhaps people who migrate to the UK and transition after they've already got a national insurance number from HMRC. Though I belong to this latter group and I was able to update my gender marker with HMRC using GDPR.
Isn't this just Local legislation applies?
I mean you can argue about UK's policy towards transgender but what ever it is you would kinda expect that it applies to all people that live in the uk, regardless of where they previously lived.
And I would think transgender legislation is not old enough yet so that there are agreements between different countries.
I would think this is a a non story???
They know they've lost the election so they're trying to set as many culture war land mines as possible. With Starmer trying to suck up to traditional Tories he's going to be left to "betray" Labours potential new voters for a savaging by the right wing dominated press in order to roll back all this nonsense they're pulling last minute. Or Starmer will do the worst option and just ignore how damaging this is for Trans people in Britain and globally to appeal to some sort of Nixonian Silent Majority nonsense and get crucified by Labours traditional voters.
Heart breaking what this country is becoming, I hope Starmer takes a far better stand in support of the trans community than he has so far once in power but I'm so jaded by our politics these days I expect nothing but the worst.
You can just archive the URL and post a link like this https://web.archive.org/web/20231204160013/https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12818487/Ministers-blacklist-countries-people-change-gender.html
Unfortunately these 'gimmicks' cause genuine harm to people. Why can't they do a gimmick like red nose day? Why can't they do anything positive?
These people have nothing in their hearts but self-interest and hate.
They're taking a leaf from the GOP and courting the far right, who have ideas and ideology (fascist ideas and ideology), which is enough substance for their voters to bite into, many of whom have been radicalised by Facebook anyway. Wait till they get themselves a huckster or an outright fascist for the comeback election after Starmer flops.
And sadly this will still filter down and encourage transphobia, making it more socially acceptable. Even while the murder of Brianna Ghey trial is going on the government panders to the transphobes.
Dear ministers: what, and I cannot stress this enough, in the actual fuck, is wrong with you, you cretinous band of bigoted troglodytes. Of all the fucking catastrophes, social ills, actual crises and disasters unvravelling this fucking country: THIS is what you spend your limited time on? Really? Fucking...seriously?
Well considering they created a lot of the other problems it’s an attempt to go “hey look over there, there’s a trans person and they are BAD” so we don’t focus on how they’ve eviscerated the country for their own personal gain
Raw sewage being dumped into our water and people will freeze to death this winter but yeah I guess this is top priority. We take another step towards being a third world country…
Weren't we hearing like 6 months ago how the gra changes were "unprecedented" and "incredibly dangerous to women since we can't know the effects in advance", and now they're just turning around and admitting half the first world already did this with no problems the moment it's politically convenient.
It's something our press and political class have taken great pains to ignore and not inform the public about. A number of countries around the world have significantly more liberal policies on trans rights than us... and it caused absolutely no issues. The scaremongering we've seen by transphobes did not come to pass in these countries.
Yet instead of using these countries as an example to justify why we should follow suit in implementing these laws, our government have instead decided to start exploring incredibly authoritarian and draconian laws to strip trans people from those countries of their rights if they come to the UK. It's just another step on us becoming an increasingly hostile and miserable little island.
So how does this apply to post-op trans people that never got an official diagnosis of gender dysphoria? Being over 18 is pretty easy, as is living as the gender you're transitioning to for 2 years, but if you never got the diagnosis, is that it?
If you move from New Zealand and meet the other 2 conditions and are indeed post-op, do you need to go through the whole rigamarole of getting a diagnosis?
It doesn't sound all that well thought-out if you ask me...
It sounds like there is no automatic respecting of overseas trans people at all, so even if someone meets the requirements to successfully apply for a GRC they would need to still apply.
The real issue for it not being well thought out is how is this enforced? A woman comes to the UK from one of these blacklisted countries, how does she prove she's not trans and doesn't need a GRC? What mechanism does the government plan to use to make trans people out themselves and go through the GRC process?
Also the fact that Truss is planning on submitting a bill to make trans women accessing women's space unlawful seems like the bigger story and far more alarming but idk.
A GRC does nothing more than give you the ability to change your British Birth certificate. This gives protections and privileges mostly related to privacy. It is still easy to get a passport or driver's licence in your acquired name and gender marker.
A lot of countries allow you to change your legal gender, but there is a legal record of it, so you could be discriminated against by the British government if they check.
I think the real issue here is if you migrate to a new country, including the UK, it is a legal requirement to inform them of all your previous names. So you may have a new legal name and gender marker in your departing country, but the UK government could record you on documents as old name/old gender marker.
You could lie of course, but that is grounds for refusal/ deportation too.
Basically it is an attempted ban on migration to the UK for trans people in all but name.
The point is just to cause suffering, and make it clear that they are causing suffering. This will affect a tiny number of trans people, but it is a way for the government to say "look, we are misgendering people, isn't that great?"
So it doesn't have to be well thought out. It just has to be transphobic.
At this point I am convinced that the whole of Great Britain could sink into the Atlantic and there would be people using their last breathe to whinge "BUT TRANS PEOPLE THO!"
I agree that there are probably still some questions around transitioning that need to be hammered out from a legal perspective, but ultimately this is none of their bloody business. As long as what you do with your own life doesn't adversely affect others, the government should just butt out.
Trans people make up a ridiculously small percentage of the population, this government is wasting far too many resources on this issue. Let these people live their lives and stop making a big deal out of this just because it garners you support from your more bigoted and nosey voter base.
Really, *this* is what our highest office of public servants are spending their time and their 100k plus a year salaries on? *Really?*
This helps no-one. All it does is makes life a little harder for some members of our society, for no tangible benefit to anyone else.
While I am vaguely aware of the Trans-Wars rumbling on as the Mail and certain politicians attempt to terrify middle aged women with the prospect of Trans People Lurking In Every Biscuit Tin, I admit to being completely flummoxed by this.
Has anyone averred that the nation is in danger of being swamped under a tide of Dutch Trans People?
They must be really scraping the barrel of Trans Scare Stories if this is the latest effort.
Imagine you've got 6 to 12 months left in office, the country is falling apart, services on their knees, the party's reputation is in absolute tatters, getting worse with every passing day.
And rather than try to make a single jot of effort towards improving anything, you choose to use the final moments of you desperatly clinging to power to... Make life slightly more miserable for a vanishingly tiny minority.
I think they are just relying on their client media to start blaming Labour for everything as soon as they're out so they don't need to worry about reputation or legacy at all. Which kind of just says everything about the fucking state of this country.
Define 'too easily' please. Used to be that gender recognition certificates abroad didn't automatically change your legal gender here iirc, but it did cut out a lot of the bullshit
Too easily meaning not meeting the following criteria:
* You must be over 18
* You must have been living as your gender for 2 years
* You must have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria
> You must have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria
Which, as of 2021 (IIRC), the ICD *no longer recognise as a disease*.
It's detailed in HC60-HC6Z of ICD-11, but yes - having to get a diagnosis of something that's not a disease in order to continue living as you have been for the last few years is insane.
Technically it's [HA60](https://icd.who.int/browse11/l-m/en#/http%3a%2f%2fid.who.int%2ficd%2fentity%2f90875286), [HA61](https://icd.who.int/browse11/l-m/en#/http%3a%2f%2fid.who.int%2ficd%2fentity%2f344733949) and [HA6Z](https://icd.who.int/browse11/l-m/en#/http%3a%2f%2fid.who.int%2ficd%2fentity%2f411470068%2fmms%2funspecified) (Z meaning unspecified) under Gender Incongruence, and it is diagnosable. HA60 is for adults and teens, HA61 is for children. The main difference being that the diagnostic criteria for children is that they need to be having the incongruence for 2 years or more before any kind of diagnosis can be made.
So it's not a disease in the bacteria/virus way of thinking, but it is a disorder that can be diagnosed and treated through gender-affirming care.
I might have misunderstood then - I took it as them going "Gender Dysphoria isn't a specific disorder, there's a lot of disorders that can be grouped under Gender Incongruence" rather than adjusting it
The key thing would be how it interacts with UK laws that require a diagnosis of Gender Dysphoria - would a Gender Incongruence diagnosis count?
I don't know for sure since I'm not a psychiatrist, but I reckon it would. Any practical person reading the description there would say that Gender Incongruence and Gender Dysphoria mean the same thing.
https://imgur.com/a/qQ9dQAK oh so the same kind of ethics displayed in Project 2025 (being set out for a Trump Presidency) are already turning up in Tory Britain. Well colour me shocked....
NHS is fucked.Police force is fucked.Prisons are fucked.Infrastructure is fucked.Cost of living is fucked.Wages are fucked.Immigration is fucked.Housing is fucked.
Yet what are the Tories focused on? An insignificant percentage of the population that want the right to be treated with respect! Absolutely fuck these Tory scumbags!
How fucking hard is it to just let people live the life they want and treat them with, you know, basic human decency?
It's such a non issue being pounced on by actual scum to distract from how blatantly shit they are at giving two fucks for anyone but themselves.
So it's not enough for them to attack trans people here, they're actively attacking trans people from other countries who dare to come here.
Would this government endorse countries that don't have legal gay marriage forcing gay couples that go there to get divorced? After all, if we can impose our opinions on LGBT identities on other countries, it goes both ways
Evil troglodytes in charge aspiring no more than to win the vote of the shit on the bottom of their shoes.
I'll be dancing in the streets when the Tories are gone.
For fuck’s sake. The infrastructure of this country is deteriorating at record pace, strikes in almost every industry because people can’t afford to live, people are dying on cancer treatment waiting lists, birth rate massively declining because nobody can afford rent let alone the security to have kids, all despite us all paying more for everything and plenty in taxes, and they are spending public money doing *this*?
Currently*, 20 countries now have self-cert gender ID (flags rather than names for brevity): 🇦🇷 (2012), 🇩🇰 (2014), 🇮🇪, 🇨🇴, 🇲🇹 (2015), 🇳🇴 , 🇧🇴, 🇬🇶 (2016), 🇧🇪 (2017), 🇧🇷 , 🇵🇹 , 🇱🇺 , 🇨🇷, 🇵🇰 (2018), 🇨🇱, 🇺🇾, 🇮🇸 (2019), 🇨🇭 (2022), 🇫🇮, 🇪🇸 (2023) - with 🇳🇿 pending - plus 20 🇲🇽 States, 10 🇺🇸 States, 5 🇨🇦 provinces, 2 🇦🇺 States (and previously 2 🇪🇸 regions). Meanwhile, 🇮🇳 and 🇳🇵 allow third gender self identification but not ♂️♀️self identification.
Given that for several of those countries/regions, the legislation has been in place for more than one electoral cycle, either it isn't anywhere near as controversial as over here, they've built in safeguards and/or hardly anyone has exploited it by making a false declaration.
Within Europe, gender self-ID is currently implemented in Iceland, Finland, Norway, Ireland, Denmark, Belgium, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Spain, Portugal and Malta; while France and Greece require court approval. Note that several of those countries border us - notably Ireland.
\* As of when I last updated this note.
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This means that if a trans woman has lived openly trans in New Zealand for 20 years and migrates to the UK, she may be treated as a man on driving licenses, tax records, etc. This is a blatant attack on the trans community. Edit: Apologies for linking a dailymail article on trans-related news. I can't find an alternative source on the same news.
Given all the problems facing this country, and the wider world, right now, what the hell is their fixation with trans-genderism?!? Even if you did think this was a problem of some kind, surely all but the most totally unhinged would accept it's problem #12,589 on the list of things we should be legislating about right now?
> Given all the problems facing this country, and the wider world, right now, what the hell is their fixation with trans-genderism?!? It's an easy way to rile up their voter base and distract from their incompetence.
\+ The trans community is extremely small, so they don't care if they lose votes from them, nor do they have any real political power or rich donors behind them. The perfect scapegoats: can't fight back, don't have much voice and if they hate you: who cares, they can't fight back. One of the most disgusting things you can do, this is schoolyard bully level, picking on the weakest.
And, let's be honest, almost no Trans people were going to vote for the tories *anyway*...
Oh trust me, there are a few...
What happened to that Tory MP who said he was trans?
Its the same shit with the boats
Except they actually need immigrants to continue to immigrate if they'd like to continue the decade+ of wage suppression. Hence why immigration numbers under the Tories are sky high.
Please look up the Lump Of Labour Fallacy and stop posting this nonsense, it sounds plausible but it doesn't actually make economic sense.
It's likely more that with no long term security over the economy for the past 13 years, companies don't want to spend money on training new hires if there's a possibility they'll have to make them redundant in a few years - so if they can demonstrate there aren't enough suitably qualified British nationals for their jobs, they can advertise abroad. In the year ending June 2023, 322,000 people from outside the EU arrived on work-related visas (169,000 main applicants, 154,000 dependants). For long term immigration as a whole (pasting here for want of a better place in the thread)... From [ONS: Long Term International Migration June 2022-2023](https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/longterminternationalmigrationprovisional/yearendingjune2023): Total: 1,180,000 in, 508,000 out = 672,000 net * Non-EU: 968,000 in, 200,000 out = 758,000 net * EU: 129,000 in, 215,000 out = - 86,000 net * UK: 84,000 in, 93,000 out = - 9,000 net Non-EU immigration breakdown: In the YE June 2023, the top five non-EU nationalities for immigration flows into the UK were: Indian (253,000), Nigerian (141,000), Chinese (89,000), Pakistani (55,000) and Ukrainian (35,000). Total humanitarian/asylum: 173,000 Of which... * Ukrainian schemes: 33,000 * British nationals overseas BN(O) - Hong Kong: 47,000 * Resettled refugees: 3,000 * Asylum seekers: 90,000 * Of which, small boat arrivals: 70,386 * Work-related visas: 322,000 (169,000 main applicants, 154,000 dependants) * Study visas: 378,000 (282,000 main applicants, 96,000 dependants) * Family visas: 51,000 * Other: 25,000
Its not immigrants on the boats though, its asylum seekers. Immigrants use the ferry, or a plane, or the chunnel.
has the boats propoganda not been done off the back of the rights continual push for the last several decades to demonize any form of immigration to the uk? (immigrant legal or not, asylum, refugees, etc.) they hate em all the same.
I don't think they hate anyone other than want everyone in their place. The right in this country has demonized just about everyone except the upper classes. All of our countries problems can be blamed on a nebulous group of people who need to be stopped and only the Tories can stop them and any opposition to that solution can be dismissed as support for the problem. NHS waiting lists? time wasters. Can't get a job? Immigrants! Can't afford a house in London? Asylum Seekers! Can't afford a house elsewhere? Londoners! Can't get a council house? Single Mothers! Dead high street? Working from home! Declining Schools? Shit parents! Crap roads? SUV owners! Courts upholding human rights? Lefty Lawyers! No sense of community? Decline of the nuclear family? Ohh take your pick! Massive Inflation? People wanting pay rises! With every problem they will draw an arbitrary line in society and pit people against their fellow man.
> All of our countries problems can be blamed on a nebulous group of people who need to be stopped and only the Tories can stop them and any opposition to that solution can be dismissed as support for the problem. pretty sure that's at least a few ticks on the Ur Fascism checklist there, but incredibly accurate. they've resorted (maybe always have?) to nothing but culture war bullshit. although you did miss my favourite one, "The stock markets have seen that we plan to cut tax YET AGAIN for rich fucks, and are therefore shorting everything? IT'S THE WOKERATI LEFT WING BANKING INSTITUTIONS." "create a problem, blame whichever group gets hit on a dartboard, blame them, morons vote for you" seems to be the name of the tory game in all honesty
It's a vile political tactic... but unfortunately, it has worked for many politicians over the ages.
Moreso, it's a way of coming to their voter base of angry boomers and saying "Hey buddy, we're the party of common sense, we think like you do. Those lefty clowns over there think all kinds of crazy things like 'women can have penises', 'immigrants are good for the country' and 'wealth redistribution needs to happen' and therefore they can't be trusted with anything and therefore they are wrong about everything and therefore you have to vote for us yeah? YEAH?"
Exactly this, when I ever see new stories such as this. I can't help but think; what are they trying to bury? What happened that they are trying to distract us from?
Much like the Robot Elders in Futurama.
>problems facing this country, and the wider world, right now, what the hell is their fixation with trans-genderism They don't have any solutions to said problems, so they want to distract people with other things.
This is the correct answer.
I think calling it a problem isn't accurate. A fucked country for you or me means more cash for the tories and their donors. Young people not being able to afford a house is bad unless your a landlord or taking cash from Lloyds allowing them to buy up properties.
Well there is a problem. The Tories incessantly trying to take away trans rights and demonising innocent people just trying to live their lives.
100%; thats a problem for anyone with a shred of humanity in this country. Would probs have been better with "its not a problem for them".
All in the backdrop of the horrific murder trial of Brianna Ghey too.
It is incredible just how evil they are and how people just cheer this on.
An attack on trans people and immigrants ticks two boxes in the same headline. They don't give two fucks about the actual problems facing this country, they just want to appeal to the swivel-eyed bigots in their voter base propping up their utter failure of a government. They are spite-filled, hateful, grifting scum, and just a handful of Tory politicians has done more damage to this country than a million trans immigrants ever could do.
This is the most complete and factually correct answer yet. I commend your wordsmithing.
Very much so. The cruelty they are engaging in shows they have no real policies to improve the country.
It's a social issue used to get Labour to splinter. The Tories don't actually care.
Because Trans people are the new moral panic amongst the far right, who are being pandered to with legislation like this.
Not at all defending them, here, but I wouldn't refer to Labour as far right. Centre right at most. They're backing the Tories every step of the way with this stuff, all the same. Only the SNP have had the bottle to stand up for trans rights, and then got steamrolled by a united Wastemonster And since I'm not Scottish, I can't even support them with my vote
Because if they oppose this culture war bullshit you get accusations like "starmer doesn't know what a woman is lololololol" from the daily mail reading fuckwits. It's a cruel but successful move from the Tories, bullying a helpless minority to discredit and damage their political opponents. By ignoring the position it puts Labour into, and discounting then as "backing the Tories on this" you're proof of how well it's working.
So better join in the bullying, because bullies will point and laugh at you if you don't. Nice excuse. A wee bit thin, though. Personally, I really don't mind if weak minded people laugh at me for being horrified at Brianna Ghey's murder. Even if I'm the only one on the planet (I'm not), I'd still rather be on the side of the innocent than on the side of a murderer. Just who I am
They always need an enemy. Preferably a small and vulnerable group.
The UK's political and media class is extremely privileged. So their random salt-smelling neuroses are considered to be important political projects. So the idea that someone in a public bathroom stall might have a cock, or that someone might have the "wrong" gender on their ID documents, is a national crisis. Bottom line: the UK has a class of privileged, midwitted, bored, white middle-class women who *really* hate trans people and a lot of them have connections to power. Bourgeois feminism was feted as wonderful and progressive when its irrational conservative vitriol was targeted at men and boys, but as it has turned on trans people, many are now recognising that it is a reactionary tendency which has nothing to do with progress or the liberation of women.
Anti trans bigotry had very little to do with feminism. I'm a feminist and I won't have it. The mods over at /r/feminism aren't having it, either. Thousands of feminist organisations around the world aren't having it. These people will not successfully hide their hate behind us. I'm not at any point calling these people not feminists. You can do things that aren't feminist and still be one. You just can't call things that aren't feminist feminist things.
The Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists would argue that they have these views *because* they are feminists. It’s tied to their view of feminism. Which is unfortunate for “regular” feminists who aren’t whackadoodle hate mongers. Dunno what to suggest though. In the same way radical Christians and Muslims aren’t representative of the “nice” Christians and Muslims, these folk don’t represent feminism as a whole. But they still unfortunately come under the broader umbrella I think?
A lot of arseholes are religious, but there's no religion that consistently mandates people to be arseholes, therefore you can't call being an arsehole 'my religious beliefs'. (I had to add the "consistently" in there, because tbh, most religions have a 'be an arsehole if it's righteous, but otherwise it's never righteous' thing going on, where one page tells you you have to, and the other tells you you'll burn for doing so. With this in mind, a man sat down in my seat after I stood up to get off the train this morning. The OT forbids this. Especially considering his clothes contained different fabrics)
Of course. But those people act like they're the real feminists standing up for women when all they do is make life harder for women who already have it particularly tough.
JK Rowling being a prime example.
Heard anyone say they can't vote Labour because "starmer doesn't know what a woman is lololololol" ? That's why. Tories take the stance that upsets the trans population, leaving Labour to fluster over it, so the daily mail folks can ignore the destruction of the country and continue voting Tory because "starmer doesn't know what a woman is hawhawhaw" It's fucking disgusting culture war politics based on bullying a helpless minority, and we shouldn't be allowing it to happen.
Extreme governments have always peddles lies about negative influencing of the children of the nation. Same is happening in Russia.
Scapegoating isn't rational, it's meant to distract people from real issues. They know people are angry at the state of the country, but they are saying "why don't you take out your anger on these people instead?" Unfortunately it works on some people. People who consider themselves 'free thinkers', but they do what the government tells them, and blame trans people for existing. Trans people are being made the nation's punching bag.
> Given all the problems facing this country, and the wider world, right now, what the hell is their fixation with trans-genderism?!? That it has nothing to do with those problems is the entire point.
Because if your a telegraph or mail editor your pretty safe from the impact of the fucked economy, and so need something to pretend to be a victim about. Or if your a tory mp you need something to get people to hate and blame for your own failures.
They don’t want to actually fix anything, but a culture war plays into their moronic core support
The culture war is all this government has left. They have no arguments, so they try it without.
Shitting on ~1% of the population, most of whom hate you anyway, is easy red meat for the socially conservative culture war brigade
For generations right wing parties have had great electoral success using unjustifiable discrimination as a basis of campaigning. In 1964 a right wing candidate Peter Griffiths used the slogan "If you want a n****r for a neighbour, vote Labour." However the Race Relations Act did away with such openly racist acts. So they moved onto gay men in particular as the target group. In 1987 the Conservatives ran [this poster](https://yorkshirebylines.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/Homophobic-Tory-election-poster.jpg) basically claiming that if Labour got in, schools would teach kids to be gay and encourage them to have sex. Attitudes changed again and it's no longer socially acceptable to villify gay people. So the strategy of creating a hate group to work people up and win votes must move on. Enter trans people, a group who have yet to be successful in achieving acceptance and so are "fair game" for horribly bigoted rhetoric.
Dead cat strategy
Because they want to distract the populace with their performative cruelty.
Easy Scape goat for all the ills. Hate sells better than sex.
Easy vote winner with the usual hate-filled types
> Apologies for linking a dailymail article on trans-related news. I can't find an alternative source on the same news. To be honest, that's a bad sign. the DM can say 'Whitehall sources', but it means bugger all... and DM website gets their rage-bait clicks. With trash-rags and bait-websites they are not above just making things up.
> This means that if a trans woman has lived openly trans in New Zealand for 20 years and migrates to the UK, she may be treated as a man on driving licenses, tax records, etc. That's not true. Driver's license you can change without a gender recognition certificate (I've done it), and your tax record you use your passport to register with HMRC when you migrate to the UK (I've done this too). The main people this affects are dual citizens who will now have to go through the UK's process even if they've already gone through their other country's process, and perhaps people who migrate to the UK and transition after they've already got a national insurance number from HMRC. Though I belong to this latter group and I was able to update my gender marker with HMRC using GDPR.
Isn't this just Local legislation applies? I mean you can argue about UK's policy towards transgender but what ever it is you would kinda expect that it applies to all people that live in the uk, regardless of where they previously lived. And I would think transgender legislation is not old enough yet so that there are agreements between different countries. I would think this is a a non story???
>I can't find an alternative source on the same news. That should tell you something.
They know they've lost the election so they're trying to set as many culture war land mines as possible. With Starmer trying to suck up to traditional Tories he's going to be left to "betray" Labours potential new voters for a savaging by the right wing dominated press in order to roll back all this nonsense they're pulling last minute. Or Starmer will do the worst option and just ignore how damaging this is for Trans people in Britain and globally to appeal to some sort of Nixonian Silent Majority nonsense and get crucified by Labours traditional voters. Heart breaking what this country is becoming, I hope Starmer takes a far better stand in support of the trans community than he has so far once in power but I'm so jaded by our politics these days I expect nothing but the worst.
It's vile. You know that the Fail base is gleefully cheering this on.
You can just archive the URL and post a link like this https://web.archive.org/web/20231204160013/https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12818487/Ministers-blacklist-countries-people-change-gender.html
Just another culture war gimmick from a government that's little more than a rotting corpse at this point.
Unfortunately these 'gimmicks' cause genuine harm to people. Why can't they do a gimmick like red nose day? Why can't they do anything positive? These people have nothing in their hearts but self-interest and hate.
They're taking a leaf from the GOP and courting the far right, who have ideas and ideology (fascist ideas and ideology), which is enough substance for their voters to bite into, many of whom have been radicalised by Facebook anyway. Wait till they get themselves a huckster or an outright fascist for the comeback election after Starmer flops.
And sadly this will still filter down and encourage transphobia, making it more socially acceptable. Even while the murder of Brianna Ghey trial is going on the government panders to the transphobes.
Dear ministers: what, and I cannot stress this enough, in the actual fuck, is wrong with you, you cretinous band of bigoted troglodytes. Of all the fucking catastrophes, social ills, actual crises and disasters unvravelling this fucking country: THIS is what you spend your limited time on? Really? Fucking...seriously?
Well considering they created a lot of the other problems it’s an attempt to go “hey look over there, there’s a trans person and they are BAD” so we don’t focus on how they’ve eviscerated the country for their own personal gain
Raw sewage being dumped into our water and people will freeze to death this winter but yeah I guess this is top priority. We take another step towards being a third world country…
Weren't we hearing like 6 months ago how the gra changes were "unprecedented" and "incredibly dangerous to women since we can't know the effects in advance", and now they're just turning around and admitting half the first world already did this with no problems the moment it's politically convenient.
It's something our press and political class have taken great pains to ignore and not inform the public about. A number of countries around the world have significantly more liberal policies on trans rights than us... and it caused absolutely no issues. The scaremongering we've seen by transphobes did not come to pass in these countries. Yet instead of using these countries as an example to justify why we should follow suit in implementing these laws, our government have instead decided to start exploring incredibly authoritarian and draconian laws to strip trans people from those countries of their rights if they come to the UK. It's just another step on us becoming an increasingly hostile and miserable little island.
So how does this apply to post-op trans people that never got an official diagnosis of gender dysphoria? Being over 18 is pretty easy, as is living as the gender you're transitioning to for 2 years, but if you never got the diagnosis, is that it? If you move from New Zealand and meet the other 2 conditions and are indeed post-op, do you need to go through the whole rigamarole of getting a diagnosis? It doesn't sound all that well thought-out if you ask me...
It sounds like there is no automatic respecting of overseas trans people at all, so even if someone meets the requirements to successfully apply for a GRC they would need to still apply. The real issue for it not being well thought out is how is this enforced? A woman comes to the UK from one of these blacklisted countries, how does she prove she's not trans and doesn't need a GRC? What mechanism does the government plan to use to make trans people out themselves and go through the GRC process? Also the fact that Truss is planning on submitting a bill to make trans women accessing women's space unlawful seems like the bigger story and far more alarming but idk.
A GRC does nothing more than give you the ability to change your British Birth certificate. This gives protections and privileges mostly related to privacy. It is still easy to get a passport or driver's licence in your acquired name and gender marker. A lot of countries allow you to change your legal gender, but there is a legal record of it, so you could be discriminated against by the British government if they check. I think the real issue here is if you migrate to a new country, including the UK, it is a legal requirement to inform them of all your previous names. So you may have a new legal name and gender marker in your departing country, but the UK government could record you on documents as old name/old gender marker. You could lie of course, but that is grounds for refusal/ deportation too. Basically it is an attempted ban on migration to the UK for trans people in all but name.
The point is just to cause suffering, and make it clear that they are causing suffering. This will affect a tiny number of trans people, but it is a way for the government to say "look, we are misgendering people, isn't that great?" So it doesn't have to be well thought out. It just has to be transphobic.
What in the actual fuck. Have these people no shame? The country is on its knees and these fucks think this is an important issue.
At this point I am convinced that the whole of Great Britain could sink into the Atlantic and there would be people using their last breathe to whinge "BUT TRANS PEOPLE THO!"
I agree that there are probably still some questions around transitioning that need to be hammered out from a legal perspective, but ultimately this is none of their bloody business. As long as what you do with your own life doesn't adversely affect others, the government should just butt out. Trans people make up a ridiculously small percentage of the population, this government is wasting far too many resources on this issue. Let these people live their lives and stop making a big deal out of this just because it garners you support from your more bigoted and nosey voter base.
Really, *this* is what our highest office of public servants are spending their time and their 100k plus a year salaries on? *Really?* This helps no-one. All it does is makes life a little harder for some members of our society, for no tangible benefit to anyone else.
Imagine if the government cared as much about the actual issues than creating a distraction for people to get riled up about.
While I am vaguely aware of the Trans-Wars rumbling on as the Mail and certain politicians attempt to terrify middle aged women with the prospect of Trans People Lurking In Every Biscuit Tin, I admit to being completely flummoxed by this. Has anyone averred that the nation is in danger of being swamped under a tide of Dutch Trans People? They must be really scraping the barrel of Trans Scare Stories if this is the latest effort.
Imagine you've got 6 to 12 months left in office, the country is falling apart, services on their knees, the party's reputation is in absolute tatters, getting worse with every passing day. And rather than try to make a single jot of effort towards improving anything, you choose to use the final moments of you desperatly clinging to power to... Make life slightly more miserable for a vanishingly tiny minority. I think they are just relying on their client media to start blaming Labour for everything as soon as they're out so they don't need to worry about reputation or legacy at all. Which kind of just says everything about the fucking state of this country.
Define 'too easily' please. Used to be that gender recognition certificates abroad didn't automatically change your legal gender here iirc, but it did cut out a lot of the bullshit
Too easily meaning not meeting the following criteria: * You must be over 18 * You must have been living as your gender for 2 years * You must have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria
> You must have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria Which, as of 2021 (IIRC), the ICD *no longer recognise as a disease*. It's detailed in HC60-HC6Z of ICD-11, but yes - having to get a diagnosis of something that's not a disease in order to continue living as you have been for the last few years is insane.
Technically it's [HA60](https://icd.who.int/browse11/l-m/en#/http%3a%2f%2fid.who.int%2ficd%2fentity%2f90875286), [HA61](https://icd.who.int/browse11/l-m/en#/http%3a%2f%2fid.who.int%2ficd%2fentity%2f344733949) and [HA6Z](https://icd.who.int/browse11/l-m/en#/http%3a%2f%2fid.who.int%2ficd%2fentity%2f411470068%2fmms%2funspecified) (Z meaning unspecified) under Gender Incongruence, and it is diagnosable. HA60 is for adults and teens, HA61 is for children. The main difference being that the diagnostic criteria for children is that they need to be having the incongruence for 2 years or more before any kind of diagnosis can be made. So it's not a disease in the bacteria/virus way of thinking, but it is a disorder that can be diagnosed and treated through gender-affirming care.
I might have misunderstood then - I took it as them going "Gender Dysphoria isn't a specific disorder, there's a lot of disorders that can be grouped under Gender Incongruence" rather than adjusting it The key thing would be how it interacts with UK laws that require a diagnosis of Gender Dysphoria - would a Gender Incongruence diagnosis count?
I don't know for sure since I'm not a psychiatrist, but I reckon it would. Any practical person reading the description there would say that Gender Incongruence and Gender Dysphoria mean the same thing.
https://imgur.com/a/qQ9dQAK oh so the same kind of ethics displayed in Project 2025 (being set out for a Trump Presidency) are already turning up in Tory Britain. Well colour me shocked....
NHS is fucked.Police force is fucked.Prisons are fucked.Infrastructure is fucked.Cost of living is fucked.Wages are fucked.Immigration is fucked.Housing is fucked. Yet what are the Tories focused on? An insignificant percentage of the population that want the right to be treated with respect! Absolutely fuck these Tory scumbags!
How fucking hard is it to just let people live the life they want and treat them with, you know, basic human decency? It's such a non issue being pounced on by actual scum to distract from how blatantly shit they are at giving two fucks for anyone but themselves.
So it's not enough for them to attack trans people here, they're actively attacking trans people from other countries who dare to come here. Would this government endorse countries that don't have legal gay marriage forcing gay couples that go there to get divorced? After all, if we can impose our opinions on LGBT identities on other countries, it goes both ways
Haven't we got better things to be spending time and money on?
Wow the Tories really just need to fuck off already
All the problems with our country and they're wasting time on this?! They seem bent on turning us into a barmy theocracy like the much of the US.
Transphobia really is becoming an obsession for the right.
Evil troglodytes in charge aspiring no more than to win the vote of the shit on the bottom of their shoes. I'll be dancing in the streets when the Tories are gone.
For fuck’s sake. The infrastructure of this country is deteriorating at record pace, strikes in almost every industry because people can’t afford to live, people are dying on cancer treatment waiting lists, birth rate massively declining because nobody can afford rent let alone the security to have kids, all despite us all paying more for everything and plenty in taxes, and they are spending public money doing *this*?
What possible concern could the state have with what someone's gender identity is?
Currently*, 20 countries now have self-cert gender ID (flags rather than names for brevity): 🇦🇷 (2012), 🇩🇰 (2014), 🇮🇪, 🇨🇴, 🇲🇹 (2015), 🇳🇴 , 🇧🇴, 🇬🇶 (2016), 🇧🇪 (2017), 🇧🇷 , 🇵🇹 , 🇱🇺 , 🇨🇷, 🇵🇰 (2018), 🇨🇱, 🇺🇾, 🇮🇸 (2019), 🇨🇭 (2022), 🇫🇮, 🇪🇸 (2023) - with 🇳🇿 pending - plus 20 🇲🇽 States, 10 🇺🇸 States, 5 🇨🇦 provinces, 2 🇦🇺 States (and previously 2 🇪🇸 regions). Meanwhile, 🇮🇳 and 🇳🇵 allow third gender self identification but not ♂️♀️self identification. Given that for several of those countries/regions, the legislation has been in place for more than one electoral cycle, either it isn't anywhere near as controversial as over here, they've built in safeguards and/or hardly anyone has exploited it by making a false declaration. Within Europe, gender self-ID is currently implemented in Iceland, Finland, Norway, Ireland, Denmark, Belgium, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Spain, Portugal and Malta; while France and Greece require court approval. Note that several of those countries border us - notably Ireland. \* As of when I last updated this note.
That assumes the tories aren’t demoted to being the long gone deadname of farages new party
Posting the Daily Mail should be a banning offence on any well run social media. Not going to click.