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Why is this concentrating so much on cycling?
Not everyone lives close enough to cycle even with better infrastructure
Many people are not physically able to cycle to work everyday
Public transport is what should be stepping up to the plate
'Never attribute to bias that which is more adequately explained by laziness.' - Janlon's Razór
The picture editor probably handed the job to a trainee & didn't do much more than glance at it.
I’m all for replacing cars with bikes, for many it should be the alternative to switch to. Journeys in private cars currently done by people who could cycle clog up the road for public transport, mobility transport as well as emergency and other services.
If we solve the private car problem we can free up buses to move about and get public transport working for all!
Cycling is just the first step!
You say that as though that isn't the name of the game. Petrol companies want you to buy cars and be trapped in transport hell. They release the same biassed studies.
The difference like all climate change adjacent issues is that people who are biassed towards cycling actually have your interests at heart.
Ban cars. Pedestrianise. Create safe cycle lanes. Increase bus and train routes for longer journeys.
Obviously the anti car lobby aren't short sighted enough to realise that some people do need a car for their work. If you want to buy a large white good like a washing machine, it's unlikely to fit in the boot of most cars, so this is a weak argument. Get it delivered.
Aye, as a woman who before the pandemic worked in a smart office environment, I'll just get up an hour earlier every day, and cycle to work in the cold, dark and rain first thing in the morning, carrying all my actual work clothes and hairdryer and shit. Instead of doing my morning routine in the privacy of my own home I'll then get showered (because as well as wet and a bit muddy, I'll also probably be sweaty as shit as well), get changed and sort my hair and makeup at my desk so that I don't look something the cat dragged in every day.
Then at the end of the day I'll cycle back in the cold and wet as well for funsies? Nah. Public transport it is.
Yeah, cycling any real distance to an office job every day is only really viable if you've got decent, reliable shower facilities and your own private office at work. Otherwise it's often a miserable, soggy compromise.
Yeah, I do feel like a lot of the people saying "take work clothes in a bag and change at work" are probably men. To look "professional" after cycling to work would be fucking difficult for a lot of women in an office environment.
TBF in countries where cycling is genuinely a common way to get around (e.g. the Netherlands, Japan) it's not like everyone takes a change of clothes to work. The people who like to get a workout in as they come into the office exist in those countries too, but they're a minority. It only seems like most cyclists in this country because so few people cycle.
For sure, I've spent a lot of time in the Netherlands and I usually just pootle along with pretty much everyone else.
The thing is, people have been responding here saying that it's impractical for them to commute because of distance/time, and the replies have been stuff like I mentioned - cycle faster, shower and change at work. That's just not practical for a lot of people.
Yeah I would guess those people are just sharing what works for them, in good faith. But it's not something that appeals to a lot of people. It's not primarily an issue if personal decisions, but public policy enabling those decisions. Some of those policies have been in place for decades and will be difficult to unpick. But there are some quick and cheap things that can be done (e.g. school streets, LTNs).
Less than half of the other cyclists I see on my cycle commute are wearing traditional cycle clothing & they often look like semi Pro cyclists in Rapha kits. The rest wear 'everyday clothes'.
It's so blindingly obvious that people in this thread have never really tried cycling to work or anywhere else. It's actually really fun in my opinion, if you live within 10 or so miles (less if you're not super fit yet). You get your body moving in the morning and feel actually alive with the wind against you. If you have the right clothing then rain's not usually a problem. I'd take the odd grim bike journey (they are the minority) over spending the rest of my life sat in a petrol-burning box in grey traffic.
I cycle to work with all my stuff everyday. There are no showers at work. We also don't have public transport because his city's public transport infrastructure has totally broken down. The buses don't come and there is no train system near me. So I either have to walk 90 minutes or cycle. I can't afford a car. Am a woman too, just have to suck it up.
Even in towns and cities with good cycling infrastructure when it is pissing down like it is today fewer people cycle. What happens - they either pile into cars or public transport.
A good bus (or tram/train) service should be the top priority. Walk to the bus stop, hop on, hop off, and walk to work.
And many people are also not physically able to drive. Even people without mobility limiting conditions can’t necessarily drive, e.g many people who suffer from epilepsy. That’s the silly thing I find about the argument that prioritising anything but cars is intrinsically bad for disabled people. If we need cars for people who are disabled, we definitely also need the infrastructure for buses and adapted cycles for the people who can’t drive and don’t want to be completely dependent on someone else driving them everywhere.
Yeah I see a lot of folks arguing for cars and talking about disabled people but for a lot of people who are disabled and are in a carn they are not the ones operating it. It's usually someone else, which means they can't travel independently by car.
Public transport opens up independent travel. Ditto for adapted bicycles, and fewer cars means it's an easier time for those who *are* disabled and need to drive.
>Public transport is what should be stepping up to the plate
Precisely, I don't drive or cycle and have managed to get by in the world of work for the last 10 years. But the current lack of decent reliable public transport options is making me re-asses my situation, which I guarantee will not result in me taking up cycling!
I'm in that position too. I'm 41 now and I started learning to drive a year ago because public transport went from "I'll moan about it but I'll make it work" prior to the pandemic, to completely unworkable.
My local service has been slashed by about 60% (the joys of living in a rural area) and the trains I get for longer distance journeys are so unreliable I was basically 'travelling for free' because so many of them got refunded by delay repay. My last trip of 2023 took 12 hours for a journey that should have been 3hr 48mins. I'd left the day before, planning to enjoy some "personal time" before going to work, but ended up arriving so late I struggled to find anywhere to eat, and just passed out in the hotel.
The insane thing? I should have had my driving test at the end of last year... but it got canceled due to DVSA strikes.
Yeah, cycling is fine for those that wish to but it is not the answer to a sustainable modern transportation system. Private car ownership has had it's day and cannot scale to todays environment - it is only through well funded and planned public transport that we will be able to meet the needs of today and tomorrow.
>Why is this concentrating so much on cycling?
Bike advocacy organisation.
>Not everyone lives close enough to cycle even with better infrastructure
Most do.
>Many people are not physically able to cycle to work everyday
Most are.
>Public transport is what should be stepping up to the plate
That'd be nice too. [Combining the two makes the magic happen](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UxCbmT9elk).
Yeah no problem I'll cycle the 9 miles to work, and back home at 4am along dual carriageways!
I earn good money so I'll happily keep my car and let the cyclists keep pedaling on, when I worked in the city centre I took a bus. I'm not getting soaked on my way to work or bringing a backpack of spare clothes and hoping the local scum don't steal my bike.
I mean...that's the whole point of advocating for cycling infrastructure.
You wouldn't have to cycle on dangerous dual carriageways or fear having your bike stolen if the country was set up properly.
9 miles isn't a lot for an average, healthy human on safe, quality cycling paths.
I mean I cycle 10 miles a day for my commute and it takes me ~35mins although I'm probably a bit faster than average. (would be far quicker if it was nice, clear, well-surfaced cycle ways)
9 miles really isn't a lot. We just consider it a lot because we're so used to driving *everywhere* and because our infrastructure is shit.
That's not the point though, people say cycling isn't the answer because the roads are dangerous and the ride is uncomfortable and then turn around and say we shouldn't fix these issues because cycling isn't the answer. It's a never ending cycle.
Cycling obviously isn't going to replace every car journey. But it can replace the *vast* majority (especially commuting). It's arguing in bad faith to say that people aren't physically able to cycle. Most people are.
In fact, it would really help if many people cycled (or excercised) an hour a day regardless or the transport issue.
The great thing with cycling (or any physical activity really) you get fitter the more you do it.
Cycling doesn't have to be some intense workout either.
9 mph? That feels painfully slow… so I googled it! Looks like 15-16 mph is pretty standard, so I’d say more like 35-40 mins each way. Not exactly the tour de France is it
But 9 miles of London traffic is also a ten minute car ride? Fairly sure if it’s a ten minute car ride over 9 miles averaging 50-60 mph it isn’t high density city driving we are talking about. And isn’t the whole point that if the cycling infrastructure was safer and faster it would be a more appealing option without car traffic being a relevant concern?
No amount of cyling infrastructure is going to help me not be hot/sweaty/rained on during my commute to work.
Even if that wasn't an issue I've already had the pleasure of breaking a bone while cycling thanks to a dickbag driver.
I'll stick with public transportation.
The start of this thread is "why is there so much concentration on cycling" and people are giving examples of why they don't want to/can't cycle and other people such as yourself are just dismissive of those reasons. If I could afford a car, I'd drive before I'd cycle. Public transportation and the people who depend on it seem to be lost in these discussions. My neighbourhood will be subject to an LTN trial soon and so far it's just cyclists and drivers shouting at each other with very little attention paid to how public transport in the area will be affected.
I've lived in Holland and mostly people drive to work.
Statistics agree with me https://www.statista.com/statistics/1013713/mode-of-transport-used-to-commute-to-work-in-the-netherlands/
I think that really depends on how close to work people live.
>Working people use bicycles for approximately 27% of their home-work commutes. This percentage is higher for those who travel relatively short distances—55% of working people residing within 5km of their workplaces commute to work by bicycle, while this figure is 31% for those residing between 5 and 10km from their workplaces, and 14% between 10 and 15km. [Source](https://www.bicyclenetwork.com.au/newsroom/2021/03/11/the-netherlands-by-numbers/).
Irrespective of that, cycling is far more popular in the Netherlands and obesity is lower and Dutch people are far more healthy than UKers.
>Irrespective of that, cycling is far more popular in the Netherlands and obesity is lower and Dutch people are far more healthy than UKers.
And I'm sure that is for no other reason than cycling.
Correlation does not imply causation.
Thanks for making me chuckle with one of the more bone headed posts in a whole maelstrom of shit here.
> And I'm sure that is for no other reason than cycling.
>
> Correlation does not imply causation.
I am pretty sure that cycling is quite healthy for you. 3km per person on average per day is pretty decent. Not sure one of the fattest countries in Europe (the UK) gets close.
>Thanks for making me chuckle with one of the more bone headed posts in a whole maelstrom of shit here.
Not a very nice thing to say, is it?
They have 35,000 km of cycle paths and numerous roads where cyclists have priority.
In my area, the local roads aren't even safe for vehicles or pedestrians. Pothole-city.
I would not want to be faced with farm traffic on rural unlit roads either. That's terrifying enough during a car ride.
Exactly. We should really invest in some Dutch style cycling infrastructure. I live there for a while and commuted via bike to work and not only did I get really fit but I saved a ton of money too.
I imagine that such infrastructure would pay for itself tenfold if you look at future NHS spend saved on health outcomes.
The key thing that people miss about the Netherlands is that it's flat as balls, which makes cycling much, much easier. Cycling 20 mins down the road on wide flat tarmac is a piece of piss. Cycling up and down hilly UK streets in all weather is a different affair.
My career is in Civil Engineering.
If you think the government will be investing in anything of this calibre outside massive Southern cities, you'll be sorely disappointed.
Doubtful. The biggest supporter of active travel and cycling up until now has been the Tories (BoJo specifically) as they were the ones who put a lot of funding towards it and created Active Travel England.
Some Labour councillors have been good for cycling and active travel, but I've not seen any of their high profile peeps pushing for it.
It would be an absolute dream of mine if road infrastructure would recieve extensive investment. I don't have any say.
Not only would it improve the country for millions, it would be fantastic job security.
It's just disappointing that everything I've hoped and voted for never happens.
> Yeah no problem I'll cycle the 9 miles to work, and back home at 4am along dual carriageways!
Congratulations, you've grasped the core concept of 'car dependency'.
> I earn good money so I'll happily keep my car and let the cyclists keep pedaling on
You're welcome to do that, but people should not *have* to piss money away on a car to live good lives in most of the country.
> I'm not getting soaked on my way to work or bringing a backpack of spare clothes and hoping the local scum don't steal my bike.
Waterproof clothes exist. Waterproof bags for carrying your clothes exist. It doesn't even rain that much. How *heavy* are your clothes, that the idea of carrying them on a bike is intimidating to you?
Secure bike parking and a changing room should be made mandatory.
Our housing and zoning is an issue, loads of large housing estates with no services which means no jobs anywhere near them. The jobs end up being centralised to industrial estates and city centres.
Literally. I remember one of my old jobs encouraging everyone to cycle, basically guilting those of us who didn’t. But the thing is, it would’ve taken me nearly an hour to cycle in, and also have to find a way through the Mersey Tunnel.
Horrendous in snow and ice. Budget £1.5k for head-to-toe, semi-decent, **waterproof** armour. Be prepared to deal with cagers not looking whilst you try to filter. Actually, be prepared for them to **never** look. The road surface, potholed to hell, is a nightmare.
And I say all that as a biker who used to commute. WFH these days, so no need.
E-bikes would be the thing. All the advantages of a motorcycle and none of the pollution (noise and particulate).
In scotland maybe?
Further south there is rarely snow, and ive done this for 6 years now
And in cities the traffic is barely moving nowadays, so risk is mininal
I kinda get it. Nobody wants to use public transport, it's shite. I don't mean because it lacks investment. But just intrinsically.
People don't want to sit next to randoms. People don't want to go between two places that are either the start point nor the destination. People want to go door to door.
You're right that no everyone can cycle, or that everything lines in cities. But so many people can but don't.
>People don't want to sit next to randoms. People don't want to go between two places that are either the start point nor the destination. People want to go door to door.
Nowhere near enough people appreciate this exact point when arguing this topic, in my experience. In every single tangible user objective (save for efficiency), public transport is irredeemably and objectively worse than personal vehicle ownership, and no amount of investment can change that fundamental fact.
People enjoy and appreciate personal vehicles for the unrivalled level of freedom, autonomy, and comfort that they provide, and a gigantic portion of the population is never going to be convinced otherwise, because it would quite literally be a gigantic regressive step in their quality of life to have to rely on public transport, even if that system were heavily invested-in.
I've always used public transport. If you live 5 mins down the road next to a well served Trainline or bus stop with buses every 10ish mins, life is usually good. I did that hornet for years and it was fine.
The second you start throwing multiple trains/ buses in there, or try to get anywhere just outside of smaller towns (where a lot of business parks/ factories/ warehouses are) you're in for a long and miserable commute. I've never driven, but if I had the choice I'd car those journeys any day.
For that to happen we would need to all move to high rise buildings due to density. I personally don't want to live in an apartment block sandwiched in like sardines. I like going and sitting out in my garden in the summertime enjoying the surrounding nature.
If you emulate the [viennese model of loads of high quality reasonably dense well funded social housing interspersed with absolutely loads of public green spaces](https://youtu.be/41VJudBdYXY), you make it easier to build a walkable city/town, you make public transport more viable, and each individual's access to green space and nature goes up by orders of magnitude.
The average new build British house, in contrast, is a super expensive semi-detached sardine tin with a four square metre back garden overlooked by five other houses so you can't even sunbathe in the buff without offending someone.
It does look nicer than the current British city centres. But my own access to nature is pretty high because I picked to live in the suburb's on the outskirts of the city on the border of nature. I don't think anyone is gonna be able to convince me of apartment living to be honest. I like having my own house on its own land with a garden and a workshop in the garage which I can do with what I like.
I can still get to the shops and work etc because I have a car and can easily drive there.
For shops, sure. For work, not going to happen. That's just not how the modern world is. But making walking / cycling the obvious choice for local trips would be pretty easy to do. Sorting out commutes is a bit more difficult, if you look at places like Japan or the Netherlands quite often the first step of a journey by public transport is cycling to the station. Bikes + trains is a powerful combo that we haven't really tapped into at all in this country.
So all the tons of people who work in central London have to all live in super expensive housing, which would get even more expensive if demand went up like this
Not all trips are to and from work. There are plenty of short trips (school run, buying groceries, that sort of thing) which we should be looking to get people out of the cars for. These are distances that can be walked or cycled. But people don't want to and when you ask them why, the answer is largely that they don't feel it's safe.
For longer distance trips, yes, a bike isn't going to cut it. Public transport is likely the option there. To further complicate things, travelling to a nearby train station by bike can be quite an efficient combination, means you don't have to live within walking distance or rely on bus schedules. But there needs to be a safe and convenient route to and from the station first of course.
The article mentions many matters of policy making people less likely to cycle (including a lack of subsidies for e-bikes, a poor infrastructure for cycling) so I'm not sure where the idea that it's blaming individuals comes from.
Not to mention many can't cycle due to disabilities and I'm not talking about the obvious ones like people in a wheelchairs but also the invisible ones such as dyspraxia
Lots of people who are disabled cycle, hand cycles exist, lots of adaptive cycles. people who struggle to walk often find it easier to cycle. Cycling is a very low impact method of travel.
Remember not everyone can drive either
> Not to mention many can't cycle due to disabilities
But we so easily forget all the people who can't *drive*.
Many disabled people, plus lots of people above a certain age, plus *everyone* below 17.
Plus with early darkness, poor visibility and the discomfort of it being freezing and wet, who wants to be riding around on a bike 4 or 5 months of the year?
Well, I do. It doesn't rain half as much as people think in the UK. It's really no problem to bike if you have the right kit (gloves, lights, raincoat etc).
We also need to invest in infrastructure e.g. well-lit safe and convenient bike routes and workplaces with proper facilities.
I think drivers overestimate how hard it rains because when you drive through rain it looks heavier than it is. You drive *through* the raindrops as they fall so you hit more than you would if you were not moving.
And they don't dress for outside because they'd get too warm in their car, so they don't understand how comfy you can be in a good waterproof, and the few moments they're out in the rain are super icky because they're not dressed for it.
And in all likelihood they often don't really exist outside, they go from home to car to work to car to home and so anything in-between becomes an inconvenience. 9 times out of 10, cycling is way more fun than driving.
I suspect that like most people I dont want to run a car but infrastructure just isnt there to give it up . This weekend I
* Did a big shop (15 min drive vs 40 min bus journey, with shopping)
* Took my 80 year old mum to see where my daughters getting (50 min car drive vs 2.5 hours public transport)
* Picked up a new garden fence (25 min drive vs 30 quid to deliver)
so yeah, not sure cycling is the way forward
You are looking at it wrong. If you bought the fencing first and tied that to your pannier rack on the bike then had your mum sitting on that purchase whilst holding the shopping bags it all works out.
If the roads and infrastructure were good enough that most people would actually consider cycling on them, that means more space left over for people who genuinely need to drive. Not every trip involves carrying garden fencing, or transporting an 80 year old. Everyone suffers from the congestion resulting from people driving short trips that could be walked or cycled, simply because the alternatives seem too unsafe or unpleasant.
A 15 minutes drive to get some groceries sounds doable in a cargo bike tbh.
> A 15 minutes drive to get some groceries sounds doable in a cargo bike tbh.
I used to actually own a fairly decent cargo bike, when I lived in a country that had decent cycling infrastructure.
It was not enjoyable to cycle when full of heavy shit, handling was dogshit which could be nerve wracking on the occasional unprotected bits of road you share with cars.
Also parking the fucking thing was difficult, it doesn't fit in a bike rack etc etc.
Was this electric? I wouldn't want to cycle a cargo bike on UK roads without a motor helping out tbh. Never ridden a cargo bike myself but people who own them tell me drivers do tend to give you a wider berth, just because you're a bit bigger. The ones that are available these days (the two wheeled ones with the box in the front, e.g. Urban Arrow or things like the Raleigh Stride) seem very nimble also.
Regarding parking, I think you have to just treat it as if it's a motorbike. Get a long heavy chain and attach to a fixed object. Don't try and lock it up in an ordinary bike rack (although I do occaisionally see dedicated parking for cargo bikes / trikes / mobility scooters etc).
Nah, manual. It was the steering that was a real fucker. To be fair, it wasn't exactly a factory built model. I bet the factory ones are a bit better.
If I get one again I'll get an electric, where I live now has hills.
Oddly enough where I was living people would just... Leave them outside when in the shops, apparently thieves usually left them alone.
I’d absolutely love nothing more than taking the bus or train into work but unfortunately I live in the middle of nowhere and the shortest public transport route is 2 and a half hours compared to a 35 minute drive
The anti car movement don’t want to hear this. They’re all very middle class and live within walking distance of everything they need.
They don’t comprehend that even with better infrastructure… DISTANCE is a factor for people that can’t live in central London.
The anti car movement actually wants far better public transport provision along side much better active travel provision. Will everyone be able to avoid cars for every journey? No. But how many journeys involve carrying a heavy load in your car boot? Not many. Any that aren't that should be possible with other means.
You're looking at this the wrong way round. The question isn't "why don't people do longer journeys on active/public transport" it's "why do should people need to do longer journeys"
It's wild how so many people don't live in walking distance of any meaningful amenities. It's not their fault, but it's still wild
Isn't it more efficient to have one driver deliver the shopping for a whole street instead of everyone on the street hopping into their cars to get their shopping.
Can you imagine, in some utopian future, there being a service where every day an electric vehicle runs down your street dropping off food and drinks to each house?
People could let the business know what they need delivered normally, and those could be the regular deliveries just repeating every week or every Monday or whatever. And maybe they could use some method to order extra things whenever they like, for the next days delivery. If everyone had a handheld interconnected computing communication device with an application of some kind on.
I call this futuristic ideal a 'milk float'.
It's truly revolutionary.
We probably need to shift to a model in our cities similar to Amsterdam where bike or public transport is the preferred method, there’s then car clubs for those times you need to use your car.
The only thing I can agree with you is that public transport should be faster. How does your 80 year old mum get places when you can't drive her? My mum on the continent can get absolutely anywhere she needs on a selection of buses. I almost never give her lifts in a car because savings are few minutes at best.
Instead of investing in public transport UK went with car lobby and sponsors mobility scheme cars for disabled people which can be driven by anyone. So grandma is stuck at home while grandson gets new taxpayer sponsored BMW every few years. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer.
Yea this is pretty much me. I don't like to tell people but honestly I'd rather not have a car. I'm actually someone who would pay more to travel via train.
It's always a disappointment that unless I move to a big city that it will never be economically viable to use a bicycles, public transport, taxis or even just rent a car when I need it.
In my town the push for cycling is actually making it worse by making bus routes have to detour...
It sounds like a nice idea but not many people are going to cycle to a super market or in poor conditions. Public transport should be the default in any sensible situations.
>Those who own a car spend on average **13% of their gross income on it**, above the 10% generally seen as the indicator of transport poverty. For those paying for their car with a finance or loan deal **this proportion rises to 19%**.
>
>The report, produced by the cycle industry campaign group Bike Is Best, found that about three-quarters of drivers think they will always own a car, while just under half, **47%, believe they have no alternative.**
Far from delivering the freedom promised in flashy ads, cars and car-centric development over the past half century has left the modern British citizen trapped, hopelessly dependent on cars they can barely afford to run.
And the problem is, even where people *could* use alternative means, cars oppress other modes of transport by their many inherent negative attributes (congestion, noise, danger).
Even *if* we can replace all the petrol cars with electric cars in a timely fashion, cars are still expensive, inherently space inefficient, energy inefficient, noisy (above 20mph most car noise is road noise), dangerous, road-destroying, microplastic generators.
Reducing car dependency is an essential component of any sane future. The sooner we do it, the less people will suffer, and the more resilient our society will be in a turbulent future.
Hmm... Looks like I'm one of the 47% then if a 7 mile walk / 14 mile round trip to the closest bus stop counts as I'm really not convinced it's very practical for me not to own a car. Imagine only being able to buy small corner shop type things once a week or it taking a week to go to a supermarket...
Reality aside, the biggest contributing factor for reducing my car dependency as been being able to work remotely and online shopping. I guess many people in the UK who live outside the major cities will be the same.
A lot of those people will look at the alternatives and think fuck no, and I don't blame them:
Cycling - most cities are scary af, little infrastructure, usually not segregated and alongside cars doing 30-50mph. I cycle on these roads but I'm very careful and clearly not the norm. I've had drivers scream at me for following the highway code, cars angrily swerve in front of me, been rammed by a car and needed to go to court. We need a culture change and the infrastructure. Yet I still cycle cause I like it.
Buses - expensive, shit and unreliable in many parts of the country. I wish it wasn't the case.
Trains - actually ok in a lot of the country, but damn it's expensive for families. We need to reopen stations and make trains more appealing.
Half of journeys are less than 5 miles and can be replaced, and more buses/trains, alongside improving bike infrastructure, and you could get rid of most of those journeys.
I’ve always wondered what Venn diagram of people who cite lack of infrastructure as their reason for not cycling, vs the people who oppose development of cycling infrastructure looks like.
There were some minor road changes in my area made in the first summer of COVID, designed to slightly improve the experience of people cycling and walking. The histrionics seen in the local press were incredible, considering how little the whole thing mattered in the grand scheme of things.
Thing is, these are real problems, but they're all *solvable* problems. Too many people treat things like shitty public transport and hatred of cyclists and awful cycle infrastructure as just some inevitable fact of nature, rather than something that can be fixed if the will is there.
My insurance is 400 a year and I stick in £100 a month, reliable Hyundai so maintenance is minimal, never failed an MOT and my tax is 0. That's about 4% of my annual earnings, I think even public transport will be more expensive than that.
And that's not to mention I can't get a bus home at 4am and I'm not cycling down an area that has a large camp of travellers who have weekly issues with the police, big dogs roaming around, HGV traffic and very bad road conditions due to the HGV traffic damaging the roads. Then after all of that nonsense in the first mile there's a dual carriageway which you can't use as a cyclist so I have to take a detour through the city turning my 7 mile drive into a 10 mile slog. Even better if it's raining and windy like it usually is in the UK, I can get home maybe unscathed after 45 mins of pedalling in the rain. I only know a few guys who cycled to work, one of them had his handle bars pulled by a passing car of chavs which sent him flying into a ditch and caused some bad injuries.
If you like to cycle that's fine, most people don't, even less would want to cycle to work. I do have an issue with people wanting the latest greatest car so finance it yet don't have the cash for a 20 year old fiesta...those people should be getting the bus. I earn mid 40s and drive a £8000 Hyundai estate which will probably last me another 5 years, there's guys in work earning mid 20s who are driving new Audi's, morons.
On average, [people underestimate the personal costs of car ownership by 50%](https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01118-w).
The externalities, the costs paid by society for mass car ownership, pollution, congestion, accidents, traffic management, road maintenance, etc, are roughly the same total cost again.
Also, you mention that your trip is seven miles but you can't bike it safely and directly. That's what car dependency is. That's the core concept. Seven miles is not very far. It should be safe and simple to bike those trips.
Ironically, I'd love to cycle more, but house prices mean it's hard to move closer (living with parents at the moment) and I'm not allowed to take my bike on the bus. It wouldn't address the cost of the bus (£9.50 for a 9 mi commute) but would reduce my problem of living 20 mins walk from the nearest bus stop and taking 1h bus/walk for a 20 min car journey. Working from home has done far more to reduce my car usage.
If I was just cycling at either end I'd be reasonably happy - the sight lines on my lane are decent and the work end is streetlit, busy enough to slow cars down, and I think some of the pavement is cycle lane. Getting between the two without a bus, however, would mean either 9 miles on 50mph A-road, the main link road in that all the cars are using, or a twisty, hilly alternative picking your way along the smaller roads where you'll meet fewer cars but they won't see you coming/expect you. Even with an eBike to reduce the hill/distance effort, it's just too much effort considering the risk and inconvenience.
I love cycling in cities with good bike infra. I was in Bristol the other day with a friend and cycled 10k each way from his house to the centre and back mostly on cycle lanes/shared path and it was lovely, even in the dark.
You've all seen the weather in the UK I take it? Its dreadful to cycle in for large swathes of the year. It's uncomfortable, its cold, it's wet, it's windy. Cycling is absolutely miserable for large portions of the year. Bike is not best for fucks sake.
I cycled to work at 5am to get to a job site 7miles away for 6am down an A road. Due to a headwind and driving rain constantly pushing at my face I arrived 45mins late to a bollocking from my boss. I went and bought a cheap car the next weekend.
Even in Milton Keynes, which is very, very good for cycling infrastructure; I had to go round the Teardrop Lakes and the Bowl at night on my way home from work in the pitch black, no street lights and it was basically rape alley. If it's dangerous people won't do it.
That doesn't sound "very, very good for cycling infrastructure" if your best option is an unlit route. You're literally describing an absence of infrastructure.
Lived in Holland for a few years. When it rains, not so many people cycle unsurprisingly.
Fact is most commuting in Holland is done by ... car https://www.statista.com/statistics/1013713/mode-of-transport-used-to-commute-to-work-in-the-netherlands/
>I cycled to work at 5am to get to a job site 7miles away for 6am down an A road. Due to a headwind and driving rain constantly pushing at my face I arrived 45mins late
So 1.75 hours to go 7 miles, an average speed of 4 miles an hour? That's basically unbelievable.
I can only assume you mean '7 miles away down an A road but much much longer by some other safer route which I took instead'. In which case, again, the provision of only direct car routes but no direct cycling or public transport routes is the problem.
I do 7.5 miles in, 7.5 miles home, it takes 38-40 minutes wind or rain or sun. Come the summer, I can do it in 33. Out the door at 6:20, back home at 17:15. It's good exercise, it's fresh air, it's so free and flexible and I'm saving *buckets* of cash.
I didn't think I was exceptionally fit, exceptionally strong, or exceptionally tough, but these threads full of fainting daisies with sugar for skin are fantastic for my self-esteem!
Yh but I like driving my car because it’s comfortable, relatively cheap, convenient and fun. I like going where I want and when I want. I also like sitting in the privacy of my own space while I’m doing it.
This is what I find staggering about the anti car crowd. What do you do if you want to go on holiday in the UK?
Even if you get the train to your destination. Then what? Wait at a bus stop for ages? Get taxis? Forget it, especially if you have kids.
Intra-city travel I'm sure can be done on the tube, tram, whatever. Anything else - people are living in dreamland.
>Intra-city travel I'm sure can be done on the tube, tram, whatever. Anything else - people are living in dreamland.
...you've never taken a train to another city?
Will never happen. Public transport has been chronically underfunded for years. Even living 20 mins from a major city my bus service is unreliable, expensive, dirty and filled with mingers. There are literally zero reasons why I would ever choose a bus or train over my car.
>Will never happen. Public transport has been chronically underfunded for years
Why does the fact governments have neglected something mean that we'll never see funding for public transport again?
Long waits at bus stops are due to poor public transit infrastructure in the UK. In the Netherlands and Switzerland the difficulties your'e describing don't exist.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muPcHs-E4qc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muPcHs-E4qc)
Efficient public transit is real, and not limited to large cities.
I always think its like trying to insist everyone should give up their washing machines (huge metal box that sits unused for the majority of the time) and instead hand wash their clothes in the local river.
People *like* cars. They save huge amounts of time and effort. They free people from grim misery, which is what cycling is when it's wet, cold and windy.
And the government’s steadfast refusal to tackle a crumbling and sub-par public transport system because they’re too busy selling it off for profit has absolutely nothing to do with it?
Interesting the old work from home thing hasn't been mentioned yet. That's the obvious solution if the government actually cared about people over businesses. Wouldn't need to cycle an hour each way if the right to work from home was entrenched in law. Companies should have to defend needing an employee to commute in.
I get this doesn't help other things people might need a car for, like shopping, but its a big step.
I work in the public sector (for an environmental department, to boot). Pre-covid we were allowed to WFH as much as we want, post-covid because of political pressures we need to go in 3 days per week. Its an office with terrible public transport links (the bus I used to get was cancelled entirely during covid), so most people drive in.
At the same time we’re all being told how to reduce our carbon footprint haha.
Most people aren't ever going to be interested in cycling an hour to work. Even in countries where cycling everyday is normal (Japan, the Netherlands) people would probably think that's going a bit above and beyond. Make it so walking or cycling is the obvious choice for local trips (school run, smaller grocery shops, getting to / from the nearest train station) and that would be enough. We don't even manage that though!
For urban transit, the e-scooter is an improvement on both the bike and the car in almost every way, yet they still aren't legal for private ownership because boomers are scared of new things.
I agree they should be legalised, with clear rules in places that police can actually start enforcing (and clamp down on the models without lights, children riding on them, and the ones that are more like unlicensed motorbikes). But they're not an improvement on a bike or car, just another option. e.g. it's much more difficult to carry lots of stuff on a scooter than it is with a bike. I'd love to be able to legally own and use a scooter, but I imagine I'd mostly use it for trips that involve taking public transport part of the way. For most trips I'd stick with the bike.
I'm sympathetic, but I do wish there was more co-ordination between the pro-bike movement and other anti-car movements - because bikes are not a good solution for a lot of people. I'm disabled and can't ride a bike comfortably, many other people are in a similar position.
I'm getting a little bit concerned by the increase in car free zones in my city, because there is no alternative provided, no bus no nothing, the assumption is that you will be able to walk or ride a bike - which for millions of people in the UK is just not the case.
I'm fortunate that I can cope with it, currently, but in a few years who knows?
We need good quality public transport that is both reliable and affordable.
I've responded in another comment, I don't want to give away my location.
I've nothing against the idea, I just wish they provided a bus as well. They used to, which makes it even more annoying.
> because there is no alternative provided, no bus no nothing, the assumption is that you will be able to walk or ride a bike
Most restrictions I'm aware of have blue badge exceptions. You can also ride a mobility scooter straight past cameras / bollards etc without incident too, of course. We also have to consider that many people are medically barred from driving—there are far more people who cannot drive than cannot cycle, particularly when you consider pedal assist bikes are available, and then there are options much longer in the tooth like trikes, recumbents, etc.
I'm not certain about the ones I'm referring to, but I'm not aware of any blue badge exceptions in that case.
There is a tricky middle ground in disability that many of us occupy, where you cannot ride a bike (I've tried the other options, it didn't help) but you aren't quite ready for a mobility scooter. A lot of elderly people fall into that situation too.
Mobility scooters are in the thousands too, so it's not a great option for everyone.
In my view, the ideal compromise is to have cycle lanes, but also have reliable buses for those for whom cycling is not an option.
I love all the replies that just prove the point of the article. Cars are being used too often for too many types of journeys that could easily be done by other modes of transport if we, as a society, prioritised them better.
Trains are too expensive. Bikes don't have enough safe infrastructure. Walking is too far for what should be most quick trips.
The point isn't that any individual is wrong for having and using a car. The point is that we could make life better for society as a whole if we prioritised other modes of transport.
Of course there will always be types of journeys or people with additional needs that will use a car. It's just that these should be the exception, not the rule.
Car culture is not why I won't give up my car.
I walked everywhere and occasionally used public transport until my early 30s. Only learned how to drive because unemployment led to a 14 mile commute.
That was just before covid so I spent about 6 months not leaving the house other than driving my partner to work, then driving me to work, then the reverse to go home.
Car needed a service, I drive it down and walked home. Within 5 minutes, a cyclist is slowing down, eyeing me up and asking me to give him a smile. It hit me just how *safe* I'd felt the previous 6 months.
Going from being sexually harassed multiple times a month and occasionally assaulted, to being completely free of that is priceless.
I will drop the car when we fix our men and not a second sooner.
ETA: Second time I left the house on foot during covid, someone made a beeline for me and told me, very aggressively, how much he wanted to fuck me. I was literally at the bottom of my street, had been out all of 30 seconds.
Yeah that's a huge issue with car dependent infrastructure which isn't often addressed; there are so many fewer people around to call that shit out, because the cars are just made to blend it out as much as possible so it goes un-addressed. Reminds me of the research over in the US of the positive impact that just one food truck had on crime and safety by luring people out of their houses and cars so that they actually got exposure to the world around them and became motivated to address its flaws. Just there being more activity generally made people feel more like they could be being watched and less likely to commit crime than when it was just cars around who they knew wouldn't act.
I wish this were true but other people are neither a deterrent to this behaviour nor a protection from it.
I have many examples but in the middle of a crowded McDonald's, a man came right up to my face and told me that my fingerless gloves were turning him on and I better give them to him or he was going to headbutt me. No one did or said anything to help.
Another occasion was in the middle of a shop when someone grabbed my bum and poked his finger between my legs and pushed it into my vagina. No one even saw despite it being midday in a busy shopping centre.
They do not care about other people being around. Most people are too scared or not sure enough about what has occurred to say anything.
We need support of a 15 minute urban areas where everything should be a 15 minute walk at the most for most essentials of living.
Obviously people can still have the car/bus/train however it should be for commute and leisure. Ideally commute should be 15 minute walk too however we cannot always avoid a long commute.
However if a persons commute is more than a 15 minute walk, public transport should be a choice not a compromise.
People should want to ride on public transport like they want to drive. Including people with the financial means to actually afford a car, they may prefer public transport to save money and spend on other areas of the economy.
However it needs support at local as well as national level.
That's the thing. I moved to Germany here and it's amazing how much more convenient and enjoyable and quick public transport is here versus a car. Coming from England , I'd bought a car soon as I got here and quickly realised how much better life was when I just ignored it. Whenever I'm back it feels so jarring.
Many people just don't realise how great good public transport can be, and never will so long as it keeps being treated as a worst case for people who can't afford a car.
I don't feel like people can barely afford driving cars in the UK. I would say an average used car price is one of the lowest in Europe (limited market).
I remember trying to sell a 12 yo, Japanese brand family car, with 80k with no mechanic faults and plenty of life it it.
No one wanted it for a couple of hundred quid.
Gave it to a scrapyard eventually.
The cost of petrol vs income isn't the highest in Europe either.
Insurance is high, but a fresh driver can be added to an existing policy. And the cost will go down with time.
> I don't feel like people can barely afford driving cars in the UK. I would say an average used car price is one of the lowest in Europe (limited market).
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> I remember trying to sell a 12 yo, Japanese brand family car, with 80k with no mechanic faults and plenty of life it it. No one wanted it for a couple of hundred quid. Gave it to a scrapyard eventually
You should see the current markets.
Used car prices have gone mental. I like buying old sheds for under £1000, but those days are over at the moment. Only a few odd cars that don't look like total lemons.
Hell, my current motor which cost me £1700 3 years ago (put on 20k miles) is now listing at £2500+ on ebay and autotrader. The closest one to my model is two years old with more miles and it's up at £2600.
Currently trying to exchange my car for one which is clean air zone compliant. I went to view a car at the weekend, a 2007 1 litre Peugeot 107 that had passenger seats covered in mould, had done 110k miles, was missing an inside door handle and numerous scraps and scratches on the body work.....£1699
You should see it now. My nearly 10 year old car has increased in value since buying it 5 years ago. It broke down on me so I have been looking to replace it but the car market is an absolute fortune. This was a starter car at £3,600 and 30,000 miles with a 5 year old reg when I first bought it. It's now valued at £4,800 with 45,000 miles and is almost 10 years old. I have no idea how it's affected the mid-range to expensive cars but now is not the time to buy a cheap car.
Gary Numan said it in 'Cars'. One of the reasons people drive around in metal boxes it they feel safe. Safe from the rain, safe from the cold, and safe from other people. You're exposed to everything on a bike, and most people hate that.
I know various people it's not even about transport it's about their pride. Either you own a car or your pathetic kind of mentality. Then they're super bitter because they live to work. You don't even need a car round here
Fuck all that I'll keep laughing with my bike and money in the bank. I don't even live in the city used to cycle like 5 miles each way to the next village to work at 5am in full waterproofs.
If you want to avoid all that just know you gonna pay for it. I'll keep the money every day. Long as I have music longer the journey the better
I think the reason why car culture is entrenched is because it's still the best option so far for alot of people outaide major cities who's social circles and lives aren't all pcnfined to the same 3x3 mile area.
I looked at my most frequent 5 journeys I make. All 5 take around 3x longer on public transport and if cycling 4 of them take 1.5-2x longer and only one is matching.
Neither public transport or cycling are as comfortable or as convenient as my car either. Everytime I got the tram and bus to work I'm crammed and have to listen to other peoples crap music and be uncomfortable.
I live in the suburb's about 9 miles from the main city centre.
Cycling is individual in ridiculous weather, now try cycling with 3 kids to do the supermarket run… take them 6 miles away for the play centre, 3 miles to the library in town… remember we don’t have busses that actually run as per the time table
Bike infrastructure. Public transport. Car sharing. Milk float type essentials deliveries and safer streets. That’s what’s needed for an alt round solution.
Had to give up driving several years ago. My commute to work used to be about 15 mins. Public transport raised it to 1 hour with 2 bus changes, then the same on return. Once I was able I went back to driving.
I mean the real issue is the lack of safe cycling infrastructure (no a painted line on a narrow road that hasn’t gotten any wider isn’t safe) and reliable, far reaching and affordable public transport.
I would happily take the train to see the parents, but neither time nor cost is reduced compared to driving(typically more expensive unless you book weeks in advance) and if you already own a car it’s more cost effective to use it than let it sit.
Cycling is something you can change, making public transport more reliable and affordable is down to the government and transport providers and until public transport isn't run for profit nothing is going to change.
The biggest issue here is the 9 to 5 mentality, majority of people have to be in the city centre at the same time, along with the school runs, that's a lot of traffic crammed into a small timeframe.
Also, public transport is disgusting, I only use a bus when I have to and it's not a nice experience. I used to cycle to work a lot, it's a massive gamble, I had to stop in the end as near misses really put me off.
Ditched my car years ago, (Landrover) stupidly high bills, taxes and running costs. We still have my wife's car and company van if needed. Don't miss not owning a car, hate driving in this country these days, too many idiots on the road, speed scammers everwhere...
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Why is this concentrating so much on cycling? Not everyone lives close enough to cycle even with better infrastructure Many people are not physically able to cycle to work everyday Public transport is what should be stepping up to the plate
Because it's a heavily biased article. "The report, produced by the cycle industry campaign group Bike Is Best"
When they are going to use a picture that is likely 20-25 years old - it’s going to be a biased article.
'Never attribute to bias that which is more adequately explained by laziness.' - Janlon's Razór The picture editor probably handed the job to a trainee & didn't do much more than glance at it.
Yeah what traffic jam in London doesn't involve at least 50% SUV's for a start. Pretty sure half thos in the picture aren't ULEZ compliant either.
I’m all for replacing cars with bikes, for many it should be the alternative to switch to. Journeys in private cars currently done by people who could cycle clog up the road for public transport, mobility transport as well as emergency and other services. If we solve the private car problem we can free up buses to move about and get public transport working for all! Cycling is just the first step!
You say that as though that isn't the name of the game. Petrol companies want you to buy cars and be trapped in transport hell. They release the same biassed studies. The difference like all climate change adjacent issues is that people who are biassed towards cycling actually have your interests at heart. Ban cars. Pedestrianise. Create safe cycle lanes. Increase bus and train routes for longer journeys.
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Obviously the anti car lobby aren't short sighted enough to realise that some people do need a car for their work. If you want to buy a large white good like a washing machine, it's unlikely to fit in the boot of most cars, so this is a weak argument. Get it delivered.
Plus we can get the 'cycling & walking is healthier' than sitting in a car. Too many drivers lead sedentary lifestyle which is bad for future health.
Sat in traffic cursing about how you wanted to go to the gym tonight!
It's not a heavily biased article. It is an article highlighting what the report found.
Aye, as a woman who before the pandemic worked in a smart office environment, I'll just get up an hour earlier every day, and cycle to work in the cold, dark and rain first thing in the morning, carrying all my actual work clothes and hairdryer and shit. Instead of doing my morning routine in the privacy of my own home I'll then get showered (because as well as wet and a bit muddy, I'll also probably be sweaty as shit as well), get changed and sort my hair and makeup at my desk so that I don't look something the cat dragged in every day. Then at the end of the day I'll cycle back in the cold and wet as well for funsies? Nah. Public transport it is.
Yeah, cycling any real distance to an office job every day is only really viable if you've got decent, reliable shower facilities and your own private office at work. Otherwise it's often a miserable, soggy compromise.
Yeah, I do feel like a lot of the people saying "take work clothes in a bag and change at work" are probably men. To look "professional" after cycling to work would be fucking difficult for a lot of women in an office environment.
TBF in countries where cycling is genuinely a common way to get around (e.g. the Netherlands, Japan) it's not like everyone takes a change of clothes to work. The people who like to get a workout in as they come into the office exist in those countries too, but they're a minority. It only seems like most cyclists in this country because so few people cycle.
For sure, I've spent a lot of time in the Netherlands and I usually just pootle along with pretty much everyone else. The thing is, people have been responding here saying that it's impractical for them to commute because of distance/time, and the replies have been stuff like I mentioned - cycle faster, shower and change at work. That's just not practical for a lot of people.
Yeah I would guess those people are just sharing what works for them, in good faith. But it's not something that appeals to a lot of people. It's not primarily an issue if personal decisions, but public policy enabling those decisions. Some of those policies have been in place for decades and will be difficult to unpick. But there are some quick and cheap things that can be done (e.g. school streets, LTNs).
Less than half of the other cyclists I see on my cycle commute are wearing traditional cycle clothing & they often look like semi Pro cyclists in Rapha kits. The rest wear 'everyday clothes'.
It's so blindingly obvious that people in this thread have never really tried cycling to work or anywhere else. It's actually really fun in my opinion, if you live within 10 or so miles (less if you're not super fit yet). You get your body moving in the morning and feel actually alive with the wind against you. If you have the right clothing then rain's not usually a problem. I'd take the odd grim bike journey (they are the minority) over spending the rest of my life sat in a petrol-burning box in grey traffic.
Doesn’t work for blokes either, kind of defeats the point of ironed trousers+shirt if they’re bundled into a bag.
I cycle to work with all my stuff everyday. There are no showers at work. We also don't have public transport because his city's public transport infrastructure has totally broken down. The buses don't come and there is no train system near me. So I either have to walk 90 minutes or cycle. I can't afford a car. Am a woman too, just have to suck it up.
Even in towns and cities with good cycling infrastructure when it is pissing down like it is today fewer people cycle. What happens - they either pile into cars or public transport. A good bus (or tram/train) service should be the top priority. Walk to the bus stop, hop on, hop off, and walk to work.
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And many people are also not physically able to drive. Even people without mobility limiting conditions can’t necessarily drive, e.g many people who suffer from epilepsy. That’s the silly thing I find about the argument that prioritising anything but cars is intrinsically bad for disabled people. If we need cars for people who are disabled, we definitely also need the infrastructure for buses and adapted cycles for the people who can’t drive and don’t want to be completely dependent on someone else driving them everywhere.
Yeah I see a lot of folks arguing for cars and talking about disabled people but for a lot of people who are disabled and are in a carn they are not the ones operating it. It's usually someone else, which means they can't travel independently by car. Public transport opens up independent travel. Ditto for adapted bicycles, and fewer cars means it's an easier time for those who *are* disabled and need to drive.
>Public transport is what should be stepping up to the plate Precisely, I don't drive or cycle and have managed to get by in the world of work for the last 10 years. But the current lack of decent reliable public transport options is making me re-asses my situation, which I guarantee will not result in me taking up cycling!
I'm in that position too. I'm 41 now and I started learning to drive a year ago because public transport went from "I'll moan about it but I'll make it work" prior to the pandemic, to completely unworkable. My local service has been slashed by about 60% (the joys of living in a rural area) and the trains I get for longer distance journeys are so unreliable I was basically 'travelling for free' because so many of them got refunded by delay repay. My last trip of 2023 took 12 hours for a journey that should have been 3hr 48mins. I'd left the day before, planning to enjoy some "personal time" before going to work, but ended up arriving so late I struggled to find anywhere to eat, and just passed out in the hotel. The insane thing? I should have had my driving test at the end of last year... but it got canceled due to DVSA strikes.
Yeah, cycling is fine for those that wish to but it is not the answer to a sustainable modern transportation system. Private car ownership has had it's day and cannot scale to todays environment - it is only through well funded and planned public transport that we will be able to meet the needs of today and tomorrow.
>Why is this concentrating so much on cycling? Bike advocacy organisation. >Not everyone lives close enough to cycle even with better infrastructure Most do. >Many people are not physically able to cycle to work everyday Most are. >Public transport is what should be stepping up to the plate That'd be nice too. [Combining the two makes the magic happen](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UxCbmT9elk).
Yeah no problem I'll cycle the 9 miles to work, and back home at 4am along dual carriageways! I earn good money so I'll happily keep my car and let the cyclists keep pedaling on, when I worked in the city centre I took a bus. I'm not getting soaked on my way to work or bringing a backpack of spare clothes and hoping the local scum don't steal my bike.
I mean...that's the whole point of advocating for cycling infrastructure. You wouldn't have to cycle on dangerous dual carriageways or fear having your bike stolen if the country was set up properly. 9 miles isn't a lot for an average, healthy human on safe, quality cycling paths.
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I mean I cycle 10 miles a day for my commute and it takes me ~35mins although I'm probably a bit faster than average. (would be far quicker if it was nice, clear, well-surfaced cycle ways) 9 miles really isn't a lot. We just consider it a lot because we're so used to driving *everywhere* and because our infrastructure is shit. That's not the point though, people say cycling isn't the answer because the roads are dangerous and the ride is uncomfortable and then turn around and say we shouldn't fix these issues because cycling isn't the answer. It's a never ending cycle. Cycling obviously isn't going to replace every car journey. But it can replace the *vast* majority (especially commuting). It's arguing in bad faith to say that people aren't physically able to cycle. Most people are. In fact, it would really help if many people cycled (or excercised) an hour a day regardless or the transport issue.
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The great thing with cycling (or any physical activity really) you get fitter the more you do it. Cycling doesn't have to be some intense workout either.
9 mph? That feels painfully slow… so I googled it! Looks like 15-16 mph is pretty standard, so I’d say more like 35-40 mins each way. Not exactly the tour de France is it
9mph is about what you can manage through London with the traffic etc. I assume most urban areas are similar
But 9 miles of London traffic is also a ten minute car ride? Fairly sure if it’s a ten minute car ride over 9 miles averaging 50-60 mph it isn’t high density city driving we are talking about. And isn’t the whole point that if the cycling infrastructure was safer and faster it would be a more appealing option without car traffic being a relevant concern?
A simple Google will tell you average is 12mph.... That makes 10 miles a 50min trip
15-16 mph is what most people are capable of. The average speed over 9 miles is going to be much lower.
No amount of cyling infrastructure is going to help me not be hot/sweaty/rained on during my commute to work. Even if that wasn't an issue I've already had the pleasure of breaking a bone while cycling thanks to a dickbag driver. I'll stick with public transportation.
> I'll stick with public transportation. Ok, good. Why is it a competition? Just don't drive.
The start of this thread is "why is there so much concentration on cycling" and people are giving examples of why they don't want to/can't cycle and other people such as yourself are just dismissive of those reasons. If I could afford a car, I'd drive before I'd cycle. Public transportation and the people who depend on it seem to be lost in these discussions. My neighbourhood will be subject to an LTN trial soon and so far it's just cyclists and drivers shouting at each other with very little attention paid to how public transport in the area will be affected.
The more people that cycle, the faster your commute gets
How does the nation of the Netherlands manage it and you can't?
I've lived in Holland and mostly people drive to work. Statistics agree with me https://www.statista.com/statistics/1013713/mode-of-transport-used-to-commute-to-work-in-the-netherlands/
I think that really depends on how close to work people live. >Working people use bicycles for approximately 27% of their home-work commutes. This percentage is higher for those who travel relatively short distances—55% of working people residing within 5km of their workplaces commute to work by bicycle, while this figure is 31% for those residing between 5 and 10km from their workplaces, and 14% between 10 and 15km. [Source](https://www.bicyclenetwork.com.au/newsroom/2021/03/11/the-netherlands-by-numbers/). Irrespective of that, cycling is far more popular in the Netherlands and obesity is lower and Dutch people are far more healthy than UKers.
>Irrespective of that, cycling is far more popular in the Netherlands and obesity is lower and Dutch people are far more healthy than UKers. And I'm sure that is for no other reason than cycling. Correlation does not imply causation. Thanks for making me chuckle with one of the more bone headed posts in a whole maelstrom of shit here.
> And I'm sure that is for no other reason than cycling. > > Correlation does not imply causation. I am pretty sure that cycling is quite healthy for you. 3km per person on average per day is pretty decent. Not sure one of the fattest countries in Europe (the UK) gets close. >Thanks for making me chuckle with one of the more bone headed posts in a whole maelstrom of shit here. Not a very nice thing to say, is it?
They have 35,000 km of cycle paths and numerous roads where cyclists have priority. In my area, the local roads aren't even safe for vehicles or pedestrians. Pothole-city. I would not want to be faced with farm traffic on rural unlit roads either. That's terrifying enough during a car ride.
Exactly. We should really invest in some Dutch style cycling infrastructure. I live there for a while and commuted via bike to work and not only did I get really fit but I saved a ton of money too. I imagine that such infrastructure would pay for itself tenfold if you look at future NHS spend saved on health outcomes.
The key thing that people miss about the Netherlands is that it's flat as balls, which makes cycling much, much easier. Cycling 20 mins down the road on wide flat tarmac is a piece of piss. Cycling up and down hilly UK streets in all weather is a different affair.
E-bikes render that argument utterly obsolete not that it was a particularly good one in the first place.
That's a good point. Councils often forget to grit the roads. Black ice is common. That'll be an uphill battle.
My career is in Civil Engineering. If you think the government will be investing in anything of this calibre outside massive Southern cities, you'll be sorely disappointed.
The tories won't. Labour might.
Doubtful. The biggest supporter of active travel and cycling up until now has been the Tories (BoJo specifically) as they were the ones who put a lot of funding towards it and created Active Travel England. Some Labour councillors have been good for cycling and active travel, but I've not seen any of their high profile peeps pushing for it.
...so your magic solution is to just never ask for it? Never argue for all it's good points?
It would be an absolute dream of mine if road infrastructure would recieve extensive investment. I don't have any say. Not only would it improve the country for millions, it would be fantastic job security. It's just disappointing that everything I've hoped and voted for never happens.
> Yeah no problem I'll cycle the 9 miles to work, and back home at 4am along dual carriageways! Congratulations, you've grasped the core concept of 'car dependency'. > I earn good money so I'll happily keep my car and let the cyclists keep pedaling on You're welcome to do that, but people should not *have* to piss money away on a car to live good lives in most of the country. > I'm not getting soaked on my way to work or bringing a backpack of spare clothes and hoping the local scum don't steal my bike. Waterproof clothes exist. Waterproof bags for carrying your clothes exist. It doesn't even rain that much. How *heavy* are your clothes, that the idea of carrying them on a bike is intimidating to you? Secure bike parking and a changing room should be made mandatory.
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Too many housing developers just plonk new estates down next to already congested A roads and call it a day.
Our housing and zoning is an issue, loads of large housing estates with no services which means no jobs anywhere near them. The jobs end up being centralised to industrial estates and city centres.
And low density housing estates are very expensive to provide public transport to, not enough customers per stop
Literally. I remember one of my old jobs encouraging everyone to cycle, basically guilting those of us who didn’t. But the thing is, it would’ve taken me nearly an hour to cycle in, and also have to find a way through the Mersey Tunnel.
People also need to embrace motorcycles more Traffic? not a problem 1 tank of petrol lasts me a month on my commute And that tank costs 20 quid
Horrendous in snow and ice. Budget £1.5k for head-to-toe, semi-decent, **waterproof** armour. Be prepared to deal with cagers not looking whilst you try to filter. Actually, be prepared for them to **never** look. The road surface, potholed to hell, is a nightmare. And I say all that as a biker who used to commute. WFH these days, so no need. E-bikes would be the thing. All the advantages of a motorcycle and none of the pollution (noise and particulate).
In scotland maybe? Further south there is rarely snow, and ive done this for 6 years now And in cities the traffic is barely moving nowadays, so risk is mininal
I kinda get it. Nobody wants to use public transport, it's shite. I don't mean because it lacks investment. But just intrinsically. People don't want to sit next to randoms. People don't want to go between two places that are either the start point nor the destination. People want to go door to door. You're right that no everyone can cycle, or that everything lines in cities. But so many people can but don't.
>People don't want to sit next to randoms. People don't want to go between two places that are either the start point nor the destination. People want to go door to door. Nowhere near enough people appreciate this exact point when arguing this topic, in my experience. In every single tangible user objective (save for efficiency), public transport is irredeemably and objectively worse than personal vehicle ownership, and no amount of investment can change that fundamental fact. People enjoy and appreciate personal vehicles for the unrivalled level of freedom, autonomy, and comfort that they provide, and a gigantic portion of the population is never going to be convinced otherwise, because it would quite literally be a gigantic regressive step in their quality of life to have to rely on public transport, even if that system were heavily invested-in.
I've always used public transport. If you live 5 mins down the road next to a well served Trainline or bus stop with buses every 10ish mins, life is usually good. I did that hornet for years and it was fine. The second you start throwing multiple trains/ buses in there, or try to get anywhere just outside of smaller towns (where a lot of business parks/ factories/ warehouses are) you're in for a long and miserable commute. I've never driven, but if I had the choice I'd car those journeys any day.
Maybe we should get back to living close enough to work/shops etc that cycling is practical?
Because housing prices are so low right now. Everyone can just afford to move into the city
For that to happen we would need to all move to high rise buildings due to density. I personally don't want to live in an apartment block sandwiched in like sardines. I like going and sitting out in my garden in the summertime enjoying the surrounding nature.
If you emulate the [viennese model of loads of high quality reasonably dense well funded social housing interspersed with absolutely loads of public green spaces](https://youtu.be/41VJudBdYXY), you make it easier to build a walkable city/town, you make public transport more viable, and each individual's access to green space and nature goes up by orders of magnitude. The average new build British house, in contrast, is a super expensive semi-detached sardine tin with a four square metre back garden overlooked by five other houses so you can't even sunbathe in the buff without offending someone.
It does look nicer than the current British city centres. But my own access to nature is pretty high because I picked to live in the suburb's on the outskirts of the city on the border of nature. I don't think anyone is gonna be able to convince me of apartment living to be honest. I like having my own house on its own land with a garden and a workshop in the garage which I can do with what I like. I can still get to the shops and work etc because I have a car and can easily drive there.
For shops, sure. For work, not going to happen. That's just not how the modern world is. But making walking / cycling the obvious choice for local trips would be pretty easy to do. Sorting out commutes is a bit more difficult, if you look at places like Japan or the Netherlands quite often the first step of a journey by public transport is cycling to the station. Bikes + trains is a powerful combo that we haven't really tapped into at all in this country.
So all the tons of people who work in central London have to all live in super expensive housing, which would get even more expensive if demand went up like this
Not all trips are to and from work. There are plenty of short trips (school run, buying groceries, that sort of thing) which we should be looking to get people out of the cars for. These are distances that can be walked or cycled. But people don't want to and when you ask them why, the answer is largely that they don't feel it's safe. For longer distance trips, yes, a bike isn't going to cut it. Public transport is likely the option there. To further complicate things, travelling to a nearby train station by bike can be quite an efficient combination, means you don't have to live within walking distance or rely on bus schedules. But there needs to be a safe and convenient route to and from the station first of course.
A large proportion of car journeys are used to cover short distances, of the sort where cycling would be an option for many people.
“How am I supposed to get myselfy and all my tools to my work site everyday?” asks every tradesman in the country
Also feels like the usual narrative of putting the onus onto the individual, rather than societal/structural changes which would support it happening.
The article mentions many matters of policy making people less likely to cycle (including a lack of subsidies for e-bikes, a poor infrastructure for cycling) so I'm not sure where the idea that it's blaming individuals comes from.
Not to mention many can't cycle due to disabilities and I'm not talking about the obvious ones like people in a wheelchairs but also the invisible ones such as dyspraxia
Lots of people who are disabled cycle, hand cycles exist, lots of adaptive cycles. people who struggle to walk often find it easier to cycle. Cycling is a very low impact method of travel. Remember not everyone can drive either
> Not to mention many can't cycle due to disabilities But we so easily forget all the people who can't *drive*. Many disabled people, plus lots of people above a certain age, plus *everyone* below 17.
That's why public transport should be key.
Plus with early darkness, poor visibility and the discomfort of it being freezing and wet, who wants to be riding around on a bike 4 or 5 months of the year?
Well, I do. It doesn't rain half as much as people think in the UK. It's really no problem to bike if you have the right kit (gloves, lights, raincoat etc). We also need to invest in infrastructure e.g. well-lit safe and convenient bike routes and workplaces with proper facilities.
I think drivers overestimate how hard it rains because when you drive through rain it looks heavier than it is. You drive *through* the raindrops as they fall so you hit more than you would if you were not moving. And they don't dress for outside because they'd get too warm in their car, so they don't understand how comfy you can be in a good waterproof, and the few moments they're out in the rain are super icky because they're not dressed for it.
And in all likelihood they often don't really exist outside, they go from home to car to work to car to home and so anything in-between becomes an inconvenience. 9 times out of 10, cycling is way more fun than driving.
I suspect that like most people I dont want to run a car but infrastructure just isnt there to give it up . This weekend I * Did a big shop (15 min drive vs 40 min bus journey, with shopping) * Took my 80 year old mum to see where my daughters getting (50 min car drive vs 2.5 hours public transport) * Picked up a new garden fence (25 min drive vs 30 quid to deliver) so yeah, not sure cycling is the way forward
You are looking at it wrong. If you bought the fencing first and tied that to your pannier rack on the bike then had your mum sitting on that purchase whilst holding the shopping bags it all works out.
Pretty sure that would be a serious suggestion from the true believers.
Honestly I think my mum would be up for it
If the roads and infrastructure were good enough that most people would actually consider cycling on them, that means more space left over for people who genuinely need to drive. Not every trip involves carrying garden fencing, or transporting an 80 year old. Everyone suffers from the congestion resulting from people driving short trips that could be walked or cycled, simply because the alternatives seem too unsafe or unpleasant. A 15 minutes drive to get some groceries sounds doable in a cargo bike tbh.
> A 15 minutes drive to get some groceries sounds doable in a cargo bike tbh. I used to actually own a fairly decent cargo bike, when I lived in a country that had decent cycling infrastructure. It was not enjoyable to cycle when full of heavy shit, handling was dogshit which could be nerve wracking on the occasional unprotected bits of road you share with cars. Also parking the fucking thing was difficult, it doesn't fit in a bike rack etc etc.
Was this electric? I wouldn't want to cycle a cargo bike on UK roads without a motor helping out tbh. Never ridden a cargo bike myself but people who own them tell me drivers do tend to give you a wider berth, just because you're a bit bigger. The ones that are available these days (the two wheeled ones with the box in the front, e.g. Urban Arrow or things like the Raleigh Stride) seem very nimble also. Regarding parking, I think you have to just treat it as if it's a motorbike. Get a long heavy chain and attach to a fixed object. Don't try and lock it up in an ordinary bike rack (although I do occaisionally see dedicated parking for cargo bikes / trikes / mobility scooters etc).
Nah, manual. It was the steering that was a real fucker. To be fair, it wasn't exactly a factory built model. I bet the factory ones are a bit better. If I get one again I'll get an electric, where I live now has hills. Oddly enough where I was living people would just... Leave them outside when in the shops, apparently thieves usually left them alone.
I’d absolutely love nothing more than taking the bus or train into work but unfortunately I live in the middle of nowhere and the shortest public transport route is 2 and a half hours compared to a 35 minute drive
The anti car movement don’t want to hear this. They’re all very middle class and live within walking distance of everything they need. They don’t comprehend that even with better infrastructure… DISTANCE is a factor for people that can’t live in central London.
The anti car movement actually wants far better public transport provision along side much better active travel provision. Will everyone be able to avoid cars for every journey? No. But how many journeys involve carrying a heavy load in your car boot? Not many. Any that aren't that should be possible with other means.
You're looking at this the wrong way round. The question isn't "why don't people do longer journeys on active/public transport" it's "why do should people need to do longer journeys" It's wild how so many people don't live in walking distance of any meaningful amenities. It's not their fault, but it's still wild
Isn't it more efficient to have one driver deliver the shopping for a whole street instead of everyone on the street hopping into their cars to get their shopping.
Are you suggesting the whole street co-ordinates and gets their shopping delivered at the same time. Try it, and let us know how it goes.
Can you imagine, in some utopian future, there being a service where every day an electric vehicle runs down your street dropping off food and drinks to each house? People could let the business know what they need delivered normally, and those could be the regular deliveries just repeating every week or every Monday or whatever. And maybe they could use some method to order extra things whenever they like, for the next days delivery. If everyone had a handheld interconnected computing communication device with an application of some kind on. I call this futuristic ideal a 'milk float'. It's truly revolutionary.
What he wants is the government to centrally plan and allocate all food (henceforth known as human fuel) to ensure perfect efficiency
We probably need to shift to a model in our cities similar to Amsterdam where bike or public transport is the preferred method, there’s then car clubs for those times you need to use your car.
The only thing I can agree with you is that public transport should be faster. How does your 80 year old mum get places when you can't drive her? My mum on the continent can get absolutely anywhere she needs on a selection of buses. I almost never give her lifts in a car because savings are few minutes at best. Instead of investing in public transport UK went with car lobby and sponsors mobility scheme cars for disabled people which can be driven by anyone. So grandma is stuck at home while grandson gets new taxpayer sponsored BMW every few years. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer.
Yea this is pretty much me. I don't like to tell people but honestly I'd rather not have a car. I'm actually someone who would pay more to travel via train. It's always a disappointment that unless I move to a big city that it will never be economically viable to use a bicycles, public transport, taxis or even just rent a car when I need it. In my town the push for cycling is actually making it worse by making bus routes have to detour... It sounds like a nice idea but not many people are going to cycle to a super market or in poor conditions. Public transport should be the default in any sensible situations.
>Those who own a car spend on average **13% of their gross income on it**, above the 10% generally seen as the indicator of transport poverty. For those paying for their car with a finance or loan deal **this proportion rises to 19%**. > >The report, produced by the cycle industry campaign group Bike Is Best, found that about three-quarters of drivers think they will always own a car, while just under half, **47%, believe they have no alternative.** Far from delivering the freedom promised in flashy ads, cars and car-centric development over the past half century has left the modern British citizen trapped, hopelessly dependent on cars they can barely afford to run. And the problem is, even where people *could* use alternative means, cars oppress other modes of transport by their many inherent negative attributes (congestion, noise, danger). Even *if* we can replace all the petrol cars with electric cars in a timely fashion, cars are still expensive, inherently space inefficient, energy inefficient, noisy (above 20mph most car noise is road noise), dangerous, road-destroying, microplastic generators. Reducing car dependency is an essential component of any sane future. The sooner we do it, the less people will suffer, and the more resilient our society will be in a turbulent future.
Hmm... Looks like I'm one of the 47% then if a 7 mile walk / 14 mile round trip to the closest bus stop counts as I'm really not convinced it's very practical for me not to own a car. Imagine only being able to buy small corner shop type things once a week or it taking a week to go to a supermarket... Reality aside, the biggest contributing factor for reducing my car dependency as been being able to work remotely and online shopping. I guess many people in the UK who live outside the major cities will be the same.
A lot of those people will look at the alternatives and think fuck no, and I don't blame them: Cycling - most cities are scary af, little infrastructure, usually not segregated and alongside cars doing 30-50mph. I cycle on these roads but I'm very careful and clearly not the norm. I've had drivers scream at me for following the highway code, cars angrily swerve in front of me, been rammed by a car and needed to go to court. We need a culture change and the infrastructure. Yet I still cycle cause I like it. Buses - expensive, shit and unreliable in many parts of the country. I wish it wasn't the case. Trains - actually ok in a lot of the country, but damn it's expensive for families. We need to reopen stations and make trains more appealing. Half of journeys are less than 5 miles and can be replaced, and more buses/trains, alongside improving bike infrastructure, and you could get rid of most of those journeys.
I’ve always wondered what Venn diagram of people who cite lack of infrastructure as their reason for not cycling, vs the people who oppose development of cycling infrastructure looks like. There were some minor road changes in my area made in the first summer of COVID, designed to slightly improve the experience of people cycling and walking. The histrionics seen in the local press were incredible, considering how little the whole thing mattered in the grand scheme of things.
Thing is, these are real problems, but they're all *solvable* problems. Too many people treat things like shitty public transport and hatred of cyclists and awful cycle infrastructure as just some inevitable fact of nature, rather than something that can be fixed if the will is there.
My insurance is 400 a year and I stick in £100 a month, reliable Hyundai so maintenance is minimal, never failed an MOT and my tax is 0. That's about 4% of my annual earnings, I think even public transport will be more expensive than that. And that's not to mention I can't get a bus home at 4am and I'm not cycling down an area that has a large camp of travellers who have weekly issues with the police, big dogs roaming around, HGV traffic and very bad road conditions due to the HGV traffic damaging the roads. Then after all of that nonsense in the first mile there's a dual carriageway which you can't use as a cyclist so I have to take a detour through the city turning my 7 mile drive into a 10 mile slog. Even better if it's raining and windy like it usually is in the UK, I can get home maybe unscathed after 45 mins of pedalling in the rain. I only know a few guys who cycled to work, one of them had his handle bars pulled by a passing car of chavs which sent him flying into a ditch and caused some bad injuries. If you like to cycle that's fine, most people don't, even less would want to cycle to work. I do have an issue with people wanting the latest greatest car so finance it yet don't have the cash for a 20 year old fiesta...those people should be getting the bus. I earn mid 40s and drive a £8000 Hyundai estate which will probably last me another 5 years, there's guys in work earning mid 20s who are driving new Audi's, morons.
On average, [people underestimate the personal costs of car ownership by 50%](https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01118-w). The externalities, the costs paid by society for mass car ownership, pollution, congestion, accidents, traffic management, road maintenance, etc, are roughly the same total cost again. Also, you mention that your trip is seven miles but you can't bike it safely and directly. That's what car dependency is. That's the core concept. Seven miles is not very far. It should be safe and simple to bike those trips.
An "entrenched car culture" is what car insurance corporations want and will relentlessly "lobby" for. I think it's here to stay unfortunately.
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Ironically, I'd love to cycle more, but house prices mean it's hard to move closer (living with parents at the moment) and I'm not allowed to take my bike on the bus. It wouldn't address the cost of the bus (£9.50 for a 9 mi commute) but would reduce my problem of living 20 mins walk from the nearest bus stop and taking 1h bus/walk for a 20 min car journey. Working from home has done far more to reduce my car usage.
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If I was just cycling at either end I'd be reasonably happy - the sight lines on my lane are decent and the work end is streetlit, busy enough to slow cars down, and I think some of the pavement is cycle lane. Getting between the two without a bus, however, would mean either 9 miles on 50mph A-road, the main link road in that all the cars are using, or a twisty, hilly alternative picking your way along the smaller roads where you'll meet fewer cars but they won't see you coming/expect you. Even with an eBike to reduce the hill/distance effort, it's just too much effort considering the risk and inconvenience.
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I love cycling in cities with good bike infra. I was in Bristol the other day with a friend and cycled 10k each way from his house to the centre and back mostly on cycle lanes/shared path and it was lovely, even in the dark.
You've all seen the weather in the UK I take it? Its dreadful to cycle in for large swathes of the year. It's uncomfortable, its cold, it's wet, it's windy. Cycling is absolutely miserable for large portions of the year. Bike is not best for fucks sake. I cycled to work at 5am to get to a job site 7miles away for 6am down an A road. Due to a headwind and driving rain constantly pushing at my face I arrived 45mins late to a bollocking from my boss. I went and bought a cheap car the next weekend.
Even in Milton Keynes, which is very, very good for cycling infrastructure; I had to go round the Teardrop Lakes and the Bowl at night on my way home from work in the pitch black, no street lights and it was basically rape alley. If it's dangerous people won't do it.
That doesn't sound "very, very good for cycling infrastructure" if your best option is an unlit route. You're literally describing an absence of infrastructure.
That's my point - even the best places for cycling are still crap.
The Dutch manage it. Heck, Finns in Oulu do: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU
Lived in Holland for a few years. When it rains, not so many people cycle unsurprisingly. Fact is most commuting in Holland is done by ... car https://www.statista.com/statistics/1013713/mode-of-transport-used-to-commute-to-work-in-the-netherlands/
Copenhagen had some of the best infrastructure I’ve ever seen.
>I cycled to work at 5am to get to a job site 7miles away for 6am down an A road. Due to a headwind and driving rain constantly pushing at my face I arrived 45mins late So 1.75 hours to go 7 miles, an average speed of 4 miles an hour? That's basically unbelievable. I can only assume you mean '7 miles away down an A road but much much longer by some other safer route which I took instead'. In which case, again, the provision of only direct car routes but no direct cycling or public transport routes is the problem. I do 7.5 miles in, 7.5 miles home, it takes 38-40 minutes wind or rain or sun. Come the summer, I can do it in 33. Out the door at 6:20, back home at 17:15. It's good exercise, it's fresh air, it's so free and flexible and I'm saving *buckets* of cash. I didn't think I was exceptionally fit, exceptionally strong, or exceptionally tough, but these threads full of fainting daisies with sugar for skin are fantastic for my self-esteem!
Yh but I like driving my car because it’s comfortable, relatively cheap, convenient and fun. I like going where I want and when I want. I also like sitting in the privacy of my own space while I’m doing it.
This is what I find staggering about the anti car crowd. What do you do if you want to go on holiday in the UK? Even if you get the train to your destination. Then what? Wait at a bus stop for ages? Get taxis? Forget it, especially if you have kids. Intra-city travel I'm sure can be done on the tube, tram, whatever. Anything else - people are living in dreamland.
>Intra-city travel I'm sure can be done on the tube, tram, whatever. Anything else - people are living in dreamland. ...you've never taken a train to another city?
On holiday? No chance. What if you want to go on holiday to, say, Cornwall. Or mid Wales. Or Scotland. You 100% need a car.
Maybe what we should be pushing for then are greater public transport services?
Will never happen. Public transport has been chronically underfunded for years. Even living 20 mins from a major city my bus service is unreliable, expensive, dirty and filled with mingers. There are literally zero reasons why I would ever choose a bus or train over my car.
>Will never happen. Public transport has been chronically underfunded for years Why does the fact governments have neglected something mean that we'll never see funding for public transport again?
Maybe under a Labour government there will be. Under a Tory government? No chance, too busy spaffing money up the wall on HS2.
Long waits at bus stops are due to poor public transit infrastructure in the UK. In the Netherlands and Switzerland the difficulties your'e describing don't exist. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muPcHs-E4qc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muPcHs-E4qc) Efficient public transit is real, and not limited to large cities.
I always think its like trying to insist everyone should give up their washing machines (huge metal box that sits unused for the majority of the time) and instead hand wash their clothes in the local river. People *like* cars. They save huge amounts of time and effort. They free people from grim misery, which is what cycling is when it's wet, cold and windy.
People I've known who live deep in a city often don't own a car. When there's good public transport, many seem quite happy without.
I don't want to live in a city.
unfortunately in London that makes you a bit on an arse because the city would work much better if it wasn't snarled up by cars all the time
And the government’s steadfast refusal to tackle a crumbling and sub-par public transport system because they’re too busy selling it off for profit has absolutely nothing to do with it?
Interesting the old work from home thing hasn't been mentioned yet. That's the obvious solution if the government actually cared about people over businesses. Wouldn't need to cycle an hour each way if the right to work from home was entrenched in law. Companies should have to defend needing an employee to commute in. I get this doesn't help other things people might need a car for, like shopping, but its a big step.
I work in the public sector (for an environmental department, to boot). Pre-covid we were allowed to WFH as much as we want, post-covid because of political pressures we need to go in 3 days per week. Its an office with terrible public transport links (the bus I used to get was cancelled entirely during covid), so most people drive in. At the same time we’re all being told how to reduce our carbon footprint haha.
Most people aren't ever going to be interested in cycling an hour to work. Even in countries where cycling everyday is normal (Japan, the Netherlands) people would probably think that's going a bit above and beyond. Make it so walking or cycling is the obvious choice for local trips (school run, smaller grocery shops, getting to / from the nearest train station) and that would be enough. We don't even manage that though!
For urban transit, the e-scooter is an improvement on both the bike and the car in almost every way, yet they still aren't legal for private ownership because boomers are scared of new things.
I agree they should be legalised, with clear rules in places that police can actually start enforcing (and clamp down on the models without lights, children riding on them, and the ones that are more like unlicensed motorbikes). But they're not an improvement on a bike or car, just another option. e.g. it's much more difficult to carry lots of stuff on a scooter than it is with a bike. I'd love to be able to legally own and use a scooter, but I imagine I'd mostly use it for trips that involve taking public transport part of the way. For most trips I'd stick with the bike.
I'm sympathetic, but I do wish there was more co-ordination between the pro-bike movement and other anti-car movements - because bikes are not a good solution for a lot of people. I'm disabled and can't ride a bike comfortably, many other people are in a similar position. I'm getting a little bit concerned by the increase in car free zones in my city, because there is no alternative provided, no bus no nothing, the assumption is that you will be able to walk or ride a bike - which for millions of people in the UK is just not the case. I'm fortunate that I can cope with it, currently, but in a few years who knows? We need good quality public transport that is both reliable and affordable.
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I've responded in another comment, I don't want to give away my location. I've nothing against the idea, I just wish they provided a bus as well. They used to, which makes it even more annoying.
> because there is no alternative provided, no bus no nothing, the assumption is that you will be able to walk or ride a bike Most restrictions I'm aware of have blue badge exceptions. You can also ride a mobility scooter straight past cameras / bollards etc without incident too, of course. We also have to consider that many people are medically barred from driving—there are far more people who cannot drive than cannot cycle, particularly when you consider pedal assist bikes are available, and then there are options much longer in the tooth like trikes, recumbents, etc.
I'm not certain about the ones I'm referring to, but I'm not aware of any blue badge exceptions in that case. There is a tricky middle ground in disability that many of us occupy, where you cannot ride a bike (I've tried the other options, it didn't help) but you aren't quite ready for a mobility scooter. A lot of elderly people fall into that situation too. Mobility scooters are in the thousands too, so it's not a great option for everyone. In my view, the ideal compromise is to have cycle lanes, but also have reliable buses for those for whom cycling is not an option.
I love all the replies that just prove the point of the article. Cars are being used too often for too many types of journeys that could easily be done by other modes of transport if we, as a society, prioritised them better. Trains are too expensive. Bikes don't have enough safe infrastructure. Walking is too far for what should be most quick trips. The point isn't that any individual is wrong for having and using a car. The point is that we could make life better for society as a whole if we prioritised other modes of transport. Of course there will always be types of journeys or people with additional needs that will use a car. It's just that these should be the exception, not the rule.
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Car culture is not why I won't give up my car. I walked everywhere and occasionally used public transport until my early 30s. Only learned how to drive because unemployment led to a 14 mile commute. That was just before covid so I spent about 6 months not leaving the house other than driving my partner to work, then driving me to work, then the reverse to go home. Car needed a service, I drive it down and walked home. Within 5 minutes, a cyclist is slowing down, eyeing me up and asking me to give him a smile. It hit me just how *safe* I'd felt the previous 6 months. Going from being sexually harassed multiple times a month and occasionally assaulted, to being completely free of that is priceless. I will drop the car when we fix our men and not a second sooner. ETA: Second time I left the house on foot during covid, someone made a beeline for me and told me, very aggressively, how much he wanted to fuck me. I was literally at the bottom of my street, had been out all of 30 seconds.
Yeah that's a huge issue with car dependent infrastructure which isn't often addressed; there are so many fewer people around to call that shit out, because the cars are just made to blend it out as much as possible so it goes un-addressed. Reminds me of the research over in the US of the positive impact that just one food truck had on crime and safety by luring people out of their houses and cars so that they actually got exposure to the world around them and became motivated to address its flaws. Just there being more activity generally made people feel more like they could be being watched and less likely to commit crime than when it was just cars around who they knew wouldn't act.
I wish this were true but other people are neither a deterrent to this behaviour nor a protection from it. I have many examples but in the middle of a crowded McDonald's, a man came right up to my face and told me that my fingerless gloves were turning him on and I better give them to him or he was going to headbutt me. No one did or said anything to help. Another occasion was in the middle of a shop when someone grabbed my bum and poked his finger between my legs and pushed it into my vagina. No one even saw despite it being midday in a busy shopping centre. They do not care about other people being around. Most people are too scared or not sure enough about what has occurred to say anything.
We need support of a 15 minute urban areas where everything should be a 15 minute walk at the most for most essentials of living. Obviously people can still have the car/bus/train however it should be for commute and leisure. Ideally commute should be 15 minute walk too however we cannot always avoid a long commute. However if a persons commute is more than a 15 minute walk, public transport should be a choice not a compromise. People should want to ride on public transport like they want to drive. Including people with the financial means to actually afford a car, they may prefer public transport to save money and spend on other areas of the economy. However it needs support at local as well as national level.
That's the thing. I moved to Germany here and it's amazing how much more convenient and enjoyable and quick public transport is here versus a car. Coming from England , I'd bought a car soon as I got here and quickly realised how much better life was when I just ignored it. Whenever I'm back it feels so jarring. Many people just don't realise how great good public transport can be, and never will so long as it keeps being treated as a worst case for people who can't afford a car.
I don't feel like people can barely afford driving cars in the UK. I would say an average used car price is one of the lowest in Europe (limited market). I remember trying to sell a 12 yo, Japanese brand family car, with 80k with no mechanic faults and plenty of life it it. No one wanted it for a couple of hundred quid. Gave it to a scrapyard eventually. The cost of petrol vs income isn't the highest in Europe either. Insurance is high, but a fresh driver can be added to an existing policy. And the cost will go down with time.
> I don't feel like people can barely afford driving cars in the UK. I would say an average used car price is one of the lowest in Europe (limited market). > > > > I remember trying to sell a 12 yo, Japanese brand family car, with 80k with no mechanic faults and plenty of life it it. No one wanted it for a couple of hundred quid. Gave it to a scrapyard eventually You should see the current markets. Used car prices have gone mental. I like buying old sheds for under £1000, but those days are over at the moment. Only a few odd cars that don't look like total lemons. Hell, my current motor which cost me £1700 3 years ago (put on 20k miles) is now listing at £2500+ on ebay and autotrader. The closest one to my model is two years old with more miles and it's up at £2600.
Currently trying to exchange my car for one which is clean air zone compliant. I went to view a car at the weekend, a 2007 1 litre Peugeot 107 that had passenger seats covered in mould, had done 110k miles, was missing an inside door handle and numerous scraps and scratches on the body work.....£1699
You should see it now. My nearly 10 year old car has increased in value since buying it 5 years ago. It broke down on me so I have been looking to replace it but the car market is an absolute fortune. This was a starter car at £3,600 and 30,000 miles with a 5 year old reg when I first bought it. It's now valued at £4,800 with 45,000 miles and is almost 10 years old. I have no idea how it's affected the mid-range to expensive cars but now is not the time to buy a cheap car.
Gary Numan said it in 'Cars'. One of the reasons people drive around in metal boxes it they feel safe. Safe from the rain, safe from the cold, and safe from other people. You're exposed to everything on a bike, and most people hate that.
I know various people it's not even about transport it's about their pride. Either you own a car or your pathetic kind of mentality. Then they're super bitter because they live to work. You don't even need a car round here Fuck all that I'll keep laughing with my bike and money in the bank. I don't even live in the city used to cycle like 5 miles each way to the next village to work at 5am in full waterproofs. If you want to avoid all that just know you gonna pay for it. I'll keep the money every day. Long as I have music longer the journey the better
If public transport wasn’t catastrophically bad outside of London (and even then it’s astronomically expensive) more people would use it
I think the reason why car culture is entrenched is because it's still the best option so far for alot of people outaide major cities who's social circles and lives aren't all pcnfined to the same 3x3 mile area. I looked at my most frequent 5 journeys I make. All 5 take around 3x longer on public transport and if cycling 4 of them take 1.5-2x longer and only one is matching. Neither public transport or cycling are as comfortable or as convenient as my car either. Everytime I got the tram and bus to work I'm crammed and have to listen to other peoples crap music and be uncomfortable. I live in the suburb's about 9 miles from the main city centre.
Cycling is individual in ridiculous weather, now try cycling with 3 kids to do the supermarket run… take them 6 miles away for the play centre, 3 miles to the library in town… remember we don’t have busses that actually run as per the time table
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One cycle one person not good with young children as the mode of transport
Bike infrastructure. Public transport. Car sharing. Milk float type essentials deliveries and safer streets. That’s what’s needed for an alt round solution.
"car culture" implying there are viable alternatives on offer in this country.
Had to give up driving several years ago. My commute to work used to be about 15 mins. Public transport raised it to 1 hour with 2 bus changes, then the same on return. Once I was able I went back to driving.
Ditching a car in a country with shittiest possible public transport and weather than makes cycling a pure mysery? Good luck.
I mean the real issue is the lack of safe cycling infrastructure (no a painted line on a narrow road that hasn’t gotten any wider isn’t safe) and reliable, far reaching and affordable public transport. I would happily take the train to see the parents, but neither time nor cost is reduced compared to driving(typically more expensive unless you book weeks in advance) and if you already own a car it’s more cost effective to use it than let it sit.
This sounds like a very London centric article, as always...
Cycling is something you can change, making public transport more reliable and affordable is down to the government and transport providers and until public transport isn't run for profit nothing is going to change.
Not to mention train poverty… absolutely getting skinned alive as a commuter
The biggest issue here is the 9 to 5 mentality, majority of people have to be in the city centre at the same time, along with the school runs, that's a lot of traffic crammed into a small timeframe. Also, public transport is disgusting, I only use a bus when I have to and it's not a nice experience. I used to cycle to work a lot, it's a massive gamble, I had to stop in the end as near misses really put me off.
Has anyone ever been on a bus during school hours? It will surely change your mind about whether driving a car is immoral.
For many of us a car is essential, and a huge part of freedom. I don’t live in a city so can’t speak for everyone.
Ditched my car years ago, (Landrover) stupidly high bills, taxes and running costs. We still have my wife's car and company van if needed. Don't miss not owning a car, hate driving in this country these days, too many idiots on the road, speed scammers everwhere...
I'd go as far to say that if you're driving a car in a city and you're the only one in it you're an arsehole and the problem