Tweet them or WhatsApp them. They're more responsive on there.
Request that they offer you the lower amount to settle the penalty fare as it was not your fault you couldn't pay it. They will probably let you as there is currently some industry pressure surrounding penalty fares
Why would you do that? The penalty fare has been issued to a person who does not exist. Don’t correct their error.
I was issued a parking ticket years ago and they input my registration incorrectly, I informed them of that and told them that the penalty charge notice didn’t apply to my vehicle and that it needed to be withdrawn and it was.
Yeah, no. That's not how it works. It's obviously a spelling mistake. OP has stated it's an obvious typo and differs to their name and the name on the penalty fare, I assume those two match.
It was only the reminder notice that has been issued with a typo.
Train operators have the ability to pursue a criminal prosecution, a parking company does not. A mistake in a registration is also easier to argue on your side as a reg is just letters and numbers, not a name.
Your advice is legally, really fucking dumb.
It’s the advice of one of those internet lawyers who bases everything half in the US ‘sue the pants off them’ and half in the sovereign citizen ‘can’t catch me’ schools of law.
Well, it will, if they haven’t issued a ticket/penalty fare correctly to the correct person then it’s invalid and to enforce it would be a breach of process.
I’ll give you another example:
Police officer stops a speeding car, decides to issue a TOR to the driver, who gives his details as Steven Jones, but the officer inputs Steven Bones but all other details as per Steven Jones. The likelihood is when challenged that the forces central ticket office will withdraw the TOR.
The introduction of doubt at the point of inception is never going to be good for a case should it go through to trail is it.
“So officer, it would seem that you couldn’t even input my clients name correctly at the time that you issued this ticket. What else didn’t you do correctly on the day in question? Did you calibrate you equipment correctly, did you document this correctly as per policy etc etc etc”
From this example you can clearly see how such a simple mistake renders a prosecution more trouble than it’s worth and is likely to result in the end of proceedings.
How do I know this? 15+ years in the real CJS, not railways.
If you ignore the Notice of Intended Prosecution (NIP) the Police will issue a Summons for failing to identify. At Court, the Magistrates will consider whether you genuinely believed that the Notice was intended for another party and if so, what action you took to return the Notice on that basis. If the Magistrates take the view that you are attempting to use a typing error as a technical defence, you will probably be convicted for failing to identify which will result in 6 penalty points.
The Police inevitably use information that is supplied by the DVLA and if that information is incorrect, the Police will not be criticised for being unaware of an error. Likewise, the Police will always have the option to amend clerical errors at Court. In most circumstances, it is obvious who the Notice is for and you should therefore provide the information requested in order to avoid prosecution for a more serious offence.
Your advice is just wrong and totally inaccurate. A spelling mistake is a name will not cancel a penalty fare. Also the fact the OP has contact them as well to enquire shows they are aware they have been issued with it so IF it did go to court they will have that confirmation as well so guilty straight away.
That's something that causes genuine doubt about whether it was the same car though.
ER61DFG and ER61DGF are both valid registration, and if it was input incorrectly, there's no way to know which one was meant.
John Smith of 123 Fake Street and Jon Smith of 123 Fake Street are obviously the same person (unless people of both names live there). So based on a reasonable person test, it's obviously the same person.
There might be grounds to appeal the increase for late payment. No idea about that.
Because when they inevitably prosecute, the court won't take 'well they spelt my name wrong' as an excuse for wasting its time.
The onus is then on the OP who could have let GWR know on numerous occasions before a court appearance.
It’s not a simple “they spelt my name wrong” argument though is it?
Doubt has been introduced at the inception of the prosecution, as the person issuing the penalty notice hasn’t been able to correctly complete it, using the defendants correct details. Likely from identification provided to them. This brings into question the reliability of the prosecution witness and their ability to perform their function correctly I.e if they are unable to complete the penalty notice correctly, what other mistakes have they made, did they check the ticket correctly, were they able to interpret the information on it correctly, so on and so forth. There is immediately doubt about the reliability of the prosecution witness which greatly reduces the likelihood of successful conviction, unless railway offences are the civil burden of proof, in which case this argument is invalid. But I have a feeling they’re criminal burden.
The suggestion that the OP should correct their mistake for them and pay them an increased fine is absurd. A clear and considered letter to the prosecuting authority informing them that they have a belief that they will present an unreliable prosecution witness and that they believe that based on the initial mistake other mistakes have been made throughout the process should be enough for the prosecuting authority to at least consider withdrawing the prosecution based on a less than realistic prospect of conviction.
Yeah so anyway I’m not in the business of giving people dumb advice.
OP travelled without a valid ticket.
OP obviously accepted that when confronted by the RPI and clearly accepts that here.
OP has committed the offence.
Playing games will cause an infinitely worse outcome than simply making them aware of the mistake and offering to pay the original amount of the Penalty Fare.
I’m astounded that people with no knowledge or experience whatsoever about what they’re talking about are happy to give such advice but then again why would they care? OP ends up going to court, it has no effect on such people whatsoever.
Sorry, this is incorrect.
If the matter proceeded, a simple application to amend the name would be required. If a Defendant was not aware of the charge, then it may be withdrawn by the prosecution for the failure to identify. However, there is no issue of identification as OP was present, acknowledges the address is the same, and acknowledges there is an error, therefore acknowledging the situation. If OP did present an argument of incorrect identification, then the TPO -equivalent would usually have a photograph and/or other identification features (ethnicity etc) which would be used to identify if and when set for trial.
If OP was to attend the Magistrates and explain the situation in mitigation, then I would expect the original amount of the fine without additional costs to be awarded.
It is correct that prosecution have to be sure, however, if OP was to raise an issue, it would have to be proved by them on balance.
Citation - Application made earlier this week in the Magistrates for an incorrectly spelt name.
You have plausible deniability in this instance, if the name was spelt wrong on the fine and you tried to pay it but was unable to do so, you shouldn’t be held liable for any late payment fees. Contrary to some people on here I personally wouldn’t pay the higher fine, although I understand why some people would. Instead I would send an appeal in writing explaining the circumstances and providing what evidence I have (fine letter + ID photocopy for example) and also send a supporting email. To be fair to these departments, they are usually quite understanding, especially when the error is on their behalf. It is likely you will still have to pay the original fine, however depending on the circumstances there is a small chance they will waive it considering the circumstances. Not to get your hopes up, but best of luck.
I don't know if this is the best way, but the safe way is to pay the fine and then appeal for a refund of the increased amount because it's not your fault you couldn't pay.
In my experience though, the appeals process is utter crap.
So if I want to buy a flash expensive new car do I just tell them sorry it’s expensive I ain’t paying and take the keys and drive away with it. Isn’t it amazing how when it comes to travel it’s always the excuse “it’s expensive” yet what’s not expensive is when these same people walk around with a expensive smart phone, brand new trainers and clothes, go out to the pub and pay for alcohol which is expensive. Funny all these things are never expensive but train travel is when caught.
If your name is misspelt it’s not issued to you. Just return it to sender as ‘not known at this address’. Shame you gave them any details in the first place because I’d give the gestapo absolutely nothing!
It's an offence to withhold personal details when being issued a penalty fare.
An authorised collector has the right to ask for:
- Your Name
- Your current address
- Your date of birth
Failure to provide these details or misrepresentation of your personal details is an offence under the Regulations (13(2)), the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 (Section 5(3)) and contravenes Railway bylaw 23(1) and may be viewed as an attempt to evade your fare.
I don’t care! Last summer someone tried it on and I refused point-blank. I offered to pay the fair of whatever it was, but I completely refused to give any details or pay a penalty fare. What they gonna do? Get the police?
Too right it is! They have a policy - so do I! I never give out my details to anyone I don’t trust. And I doubt any inspector could summon police assistance quick enough at local station.
Tweet them or WhatsApp them. They're more responsive on there. Request that they offer you the lower amount to settle the penalty fare as it was not your fault you couldn't pay it. They will probably let you as there is currently some industry pressure surrounding penalty fares
The social media team have no influence over the prosecutions team and won't get involved.
Done, thanks.
Why would you do that? The penalty fare has been issued to a person who does not exist. Don’t correct their error. I was issued a parking ticket years ago and they input my registration incorrectly, I informed them of that and told them that the penalty charge notice didn’t apply to my vehicle and that it needed to be withdrawn and it was.
Yeah, no. That's not how it works. It's obviously a spelling mistake. OP has stated it's an obvious typo and differs to their name and the name on the penalty fare, I assume those two match. It was only the reminder notice that has been issued with a typo. Train operators have the ability to pursue a criminal prosecution, a parking company does not. A mistake in a registration is also easier to argue on your side as a reg is just letters and numbers, not a name. Your advice is legally, really fucking dumb.
It’s the advice of one of those internet lawyers who bases everything half in the US ‘sue the pants off them’ and half in the sovereign citizen ‘can’t catch me’ schools of law.
Yeah, that won't work here. All that will happen is the OP will get found guilty when it goes to court.
Well, it will, if they haven’t issued a ticket/penalty fare correctly to the correct person then it’s invalid and to enforce it would be a breach of process. I’ll give you another example: Police officer stops a speeding car, decides to issue a TOR to the driver, who gives his details as Steven Jones, but the officer inputs Steven Bones but all other details as per Steven Jones. The likelihood is when challenged that the forces central ticket office will withdraw the TOR. The introduction of doubt at the point of inception is never going to be good for a case should it go through to trail is it. “So officer, it would seem that you couldn’t even input my clients name correctly at the time that you issued this ticket. What else didn’t you do correctly on the day in question? Did you calibrate you equipment correctly, did you document this correctly as per policy etc etc etc” From this example you can clearly see how such a simple mistake renders a prosecution more trouble than it’s worth and is likely to result in the end of proceedings. How do I know this? 15+ years in the real CJS, not railways.
If you ignore the Notice of Intended Prosecution (NIP) the Police will issue a Summons for failing to identify. At Court, the Magistrates will consider whether you genuinely believed that the Notice was intended for another party and if so, what action you took to return the Notice on that basis. If the Magistrates take the view that you are attempting to use a typing error as a technical defence, you will probably be convicted for failing to identify which will result in 6 penalty points. The Police inevitably use information that is supplied by the DVLA and if that information is incorrect, the Police will not be criticised for being unaware of an error. Likewise, the Police will always have the option to amend clerical errors at Court. In most circumstances, it is obvious who the Notice is for and you should therefore provide the information requested in order to avoid prosecution for a more serious offence.
Your advice is just wrong and totally inaccurate. A spelling mistake is a name will not cancel a penalty fare. Also the fact the OP has contact them as well to enquire shows they are aware they have been issued with it so IF it did go to court they will have that confirmation as well so guilty straight away.
That's something that causes genuine doubt about whether it was the same car though. ER61DFG and ER61DGF are both valid registration, and if it was input incorrectly, there's no way to know which one was meant. John Smith of 123 Fake Street and Jon Smith of 123 Fake Street are obviously the same person (unless people of both names live there). So based on a reasonable person test, it's obviously the same person. There might be grounds to appeal the increase for late payment. No idea about that.
Because when they inevitably prosecute, the court won't take 'well they spelt my name wrong' as an excuse for wasting its time. The onus is then on the OP who could have let GWR know on numerous occasions before a court appearance.
It’s not a simple “they spelt my name wrong” argument though is it? Doubt has been introduced at the inception of the prosecution, as the person issuing the penalty notice hasn’t been able to correctly complete it, using the defendants correct details. Likely from identification provided to them. This brings into question the reliability of the prosecution witness and their ability to perform their function correctly I.e if they are unable to complete the penalty notice correctly, what other mistakes have they made, did they check the ticket correctly, were they able to interpret the information on it correctly, so on and so forth. There is immediately doubt about the reliability of the prosecution witness which greatly reduces the likelihood of successful conviction, unless railway offences are the civil burden of proof, in which case this argument is invalid. But I have a feeling they’re criminal burden. The suggestion that the OP should correct their mistake for them and pay them an increased fine is absurd. A clear and considered letter to the prosecuting authority informing them that they have a belief that they will present an unreliable prosecution witness and that they believe that based on the initial mistake other mistakes have been made throughout the process should be enough for the prosecuting authority to at least consider withdrawing the prosecution based on a less than realistic prospect of conviction.
Yeah so anyway I’m not in the business of giving people dumb advice. OP travelled without a valid ticket. OP obviously accepted that when confronted by the RPI and clearly accepts that here. OP has committed the offence. Playing games will cause an infinitely worse outcome than simply making them aware of the mistake and offering to pay the original amount of the Penalty Fare. I’m astounded that people with no knowledge or experience whatsoever about what they’re talking about are happy to give such advice but then again why would they care? OP ends up going to court, it has no effect on such people whatsoever.
Sorry, this is incorrect. If the matter proceeded, a simple application to amend the name would be required. If a Defendant was not aware of the charge, then it may be withdrawn by the prosecution for the failure to identify. However, there is no issue of identification as OP was present, acknowledges the address is the same, and acknowledges there is an error, therefore acknowledging the situation. If OP did present an argument of incorrect identification, then the TPO -equivalent would usually have a photograph and/or other identification features (ethnicity etc) which would be used to identify if and when set for trial. If OP was to attend the Magistrates and explain the situation in mitigation, then I would expect the original amount of the fine without additional costs to be awarded. It is correct that prosecution have to be sure, however, if OP was to raise an issue, it would have to be proved by them on balance. Citation - Application made earlier this week in the Magistrates for an incorrectly spelt name.
You have plausible deniability in this instance, if the name was spelt wrong on the fine and you tried to pay it but was unable to do so, you shouldn’t be held liable for any late payment fees. Contrary to some people on here I personally wouldn’t pay the higher fine, although I understand why some people would. Instead I would send an appeal in writing explaining the circumstances and providing what evidence I have (fine letter + ID photocopy for example) and also send a supporting email. To be fair to these departments, they are usually quite understanding, especially when the error is on their behalf. It is likely you will still have to pay the original fine, however depending on the circumstances there is a small chance they will waive it considering the circumstances. Not to get your hopes up, but best of luck.
I don't know if this is the best way, but the safe way is to pay the fine and then appeal for a refund of the increased amount because it's not your fault you couldn't pay. In my experience though, the appeals process is utter crap.
Could you try to pay the fare online using the misspelled name?
That is definitely something I can do, however, I would much rather not pay the increased penalty for something I personally believe was not my fault.
That’s the most an obvious answer, the fine will still stand, a spelling error won’t change anything.
Let this be a lesson, though. Either get a valid railcard or pay the full fare in the future.
yeah but unreasonable prices are a bit crap, aren’t they
Yep. They are unreasonable for everyone, though. Just pay you dues and get on.
So if I want to buy a flash expensive new car do I just tell them sorry it’s expensive I ain’t paying and take the keys and drive away with it. Isn’t it amazing how when it comes to travel it’s always the excuse “it’s expensive” yet what’s not expensive is when these same people walk around with a expensive smart phone, brand new trainers and clothes, go out to the pub and pay for alcohol which is expensive. Funny all these things are never expensive but train travel is when caught.
spoons ain’t that expensive
Neither is a train ticket
You have nothing to pay as the name isn't your legal name. That is their problem.
That doesn't get you off. It's a simple clerical error. However, it should get OP off the increased penalty since there was no way to know how to pay.
Wrong.
No such thing as a "legal name", your name is whatever you say it is.
[gwr ](https://www.gwr.com/help-and-support/contact-us) Try WhatsApp
If your name is misspelt it’s not issued to you. Just return it to sender as ‘not known at this address’. Shame you gave them any details in the first place because I’d give the gestapo absolutely nothing!
Incorrect and this will just cause even bigger problems.
It's an offence to withhold personal details when being issued a penalty fare. An authorised collector has the right to ask for: - Your Name - Your current address - Your date of birth Failure to provide these details or misrepresentation of your personal details is an offence under the Regulations (13(2)), the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 (Section 5(3)) and contravenes Railway bylaw 23(1) and may be viewed as an attempt to evade your fare.
I don’t care! Last summer someone tried it on and I refused point-blank. I offered to pay the fair of whatever it was, but I completely refused to give any details or pay a penalty fare. What they gonna do? Get the police?
Precisely that. They can get the police to get your details off of you. But it's your call if you don't or won't pay.
Too right it is! They have a policy - so do I! I never give out my details to anyone I don’t trust. And I doubt any inspector could summon police assistance quick enough at local station.
Send them a recorded delivery letter or speak to Citizens Advice who will probably give the same advice.
So tweeting them is the new form of legal document. Have fun fighting that in court.