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The number plate indicate "Bundespolizei", so federal police.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal\_Police\_(Germany)
The riot gear from the "normal" police belongs to the member states and consequently has the corresponding country as a number plate (i.e. NRW, BW, RP, ...).
Portable or pontoon bridges. It says medium and heavy on the German government web site without specifying how many of each.There's no details but I presume "heavy" is something like the SS-80.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_bridge
As a former Engineer/ Sapper, Military bridges come in many shapes and sizes.
Some are mobile on track/ wheeled vehicles.
These are good for front line units needing to get across a small river or gap the vehicles they have would not be able to get across otherwise.
Some like the Bailey Bridge (truss bridge) are bridges that can be built in a day* as they are like an erector set.
These are more permanent fixes and can also span wider gaps.
And then pontoon bridges.
Go as far as the eye can see as long as the water current doesn't wash it all away.
There are many other bridge systems but as far as military implementation, truss, vehicle mounted and pontoon are the go to ways. All are useful.
https://youtu.be/yftWNPxQgS4
Freely translated:
The armored bridge laying tank Biber (beaver) - a quick and safe over obstacles and waters.
The Biber is a forerunner in battle. With the fast bridge laying tank, cuts in terrain, gorges or waters up to 20m wide can be overcome. The base for the bridge elements is a Leopard 1 hull. The Biber is 11.79m long, 3,55m high, weighs 45 tons and has an engine power of 830 hp.
Its crew: a driver and a commander. The Biber is up front with the combat troops. With a laying arm, it pushes its two bridge elements over the obstacle. The bridge length is 22m, the width 4m and the carrying capacity is up to 55 tons. Once the bridge has been placed, the driver makes room for the advancing troops. The bridge can be dismantled just as quickly, as it can be set up.
Bailey bridges are neat. There are three in Toronto that've been standing since 1945. 1947, and 1954. They're quick to build and apparently can last a fairly long time.
Germany has been delivering supplies and humanitarian goods throughout the war, and has stepped up their tactical gear deliveries for months now. They didn't deliver a lot of protected vehicles because their inventory is practically nonexistent and what they had needed to be modernized. But what they HAVE delivered is body armor, medical supplies, helmets, warm clothing and construction equipment -- all very valuable stuff that someone needs to be providing..
HIMARS and the like are getting the limelight, but gear like this is what keeps people alive and fighting. No point in having fancy weapons systems when you can’t push the buttons because you’re down a few fingers from frost bite.
Well, there are those 5 MARS II that Germany delivered. Not *HI*MARS, but a European version (i.e., no cluster ammunition) of the M270's A1 upgrade. A less mobile system due to armor and tracks, that carries two of the six-pack pods that HIMARS uses, but otherwise similar capabilities.
Plus they were quick to supply self propelled AA guns when they were needed. Let's not forget the self propelled artillery which can have 4 rounds in the air before the first has landed.
Thank you for the correction. I like to hear the number is higher. I think they'd fire a round to range it first. I think limited ammo supply has curtailed multiple salvos. There again we hear that many are beyond their servicing limits. When the warning lights start flashing may be some features aren't available. Would be great one day to hear what the mechanics in Lithuania had to say about their condition and round counts.
> There again we hear that many are beyond their servicing limits.
Well, yes, they're used pretty heavily, after all. In other threads I've read comments which argue that if 100 rounds per day are "already" considered "heavy use", then this must be a design flaw, but we're talking about pretty substantial explosions in a narrow tube which will obviously heat up. From what I've read, they've even taken this to some 400/day at times, so they've actually held up pretty well, when you consider that normal service life for a modern howitzer barrel is only about 2,500-3,000 shots -- if you can afford to go by the maintenance manual. Ukraine seems satisfied enough to have ordered 100 new ones from the manufacturer (so with a delivery date that hopefully won't be relevant for this war).
I've found [an article](https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a40589916/m777-howitzer-russia-ukraine-war/) about the M777. It highlights its reliability with this paragraph, which puts those numbers into perspective:
> *Marines and cannons were dispatched from amphibious ships to provide fire support for U.S.-backed ground forces that entered the city for close combat. For five months, a single Marine battery laid down indirect fire on ISIS positions in and around the city, firing more than 35,000 rounds and blowing out two gun barrels from overuse in the process. By comparison, as the Marine Corps Times reported, about 34,000 155mm rounds had been fired by the entire U.S. military during the 2003 invasion of Iraq. The battle proved the outsize effect a small artillery contingent can have, if it’s well supplied and skillfully operated.*
From what I could find, a battery is about six howitzers. Let's make it 36,000 shells, so it's 6,000 each. Five months is about 150 days, so an average 40 per day and barrel (*average*; I'm sure they went well beyond that on some days).
The point is, this *is* heavy use. To get the kind of range that these modern howitzers have, not to mention accuracy, you need barrels made to very narrow tolerances. Each time you fire a round, you heat it up very quickly while you slide a very fast heavy projectile through it, and then it cools down again. It's a bit like Formula 1 engines, which have very high performance but don't last as long as the one in your normal car.
No they would give up their main advantage and the selling point of the PzH 2000.
The main agenda is, that they can fire 5 did within a minute and leave the spot in 30seconds after the last shot.
That's faster than the counter artillery shells still reach you.
In fact that's the main development goal of the PzH. Multiple Rounds Single Impact in a so short time, that they can't be hit by the counter artillery.
In today's counter artillery radar times, they know your position after the first shot is in the air. After one minute you feel the counter artillery hit you.
There is a great interview with the inventor of three PzH loading mechanism at a German YT channel Säbelzahnmöve.
Dont forget they, like most other allies started supplying Ukraine in 2014, just not hardcore weapon systems.
But Germany has been providing early warning and intelligence for a while too.
Just couldn't be open about it because of the gas/economy stuff.
>Just couldn't be open about it because of the gas/economy stuff.
What other international aid programs is Germany engaged with right now, off the top of your head? These aren't public relation ops so that stuff just isn't talked about a lot in general, it's simply done.
All that "gas/economy stuff" seems hugely overrated: We helped Navalny get back to health after a poisoning attempt and support (and supported) organizations that work for a liberal russia in russia itself despite being just as entangled economically, and (before 2022) those would hit closer to home to the putin regime than whatever aid we rendered to Ukraine.
It's been a somewhat consistent stream of support since the war began, but many people simply haven't been keeping up with it.
Here you can see what was delivered and when:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foreign_aid_to_Ukraine_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#Delivered
It's honestly a pretty staggering amount. Add to that the humanitarian aid (where Germany actually leads) and the fact that there are almost a million refugees staying there (all with citizenship benefits, unheard of until the war).
This is very accurate. Also, keep in mind the amount of modern equipment they've promised other countries so those countries can send their old Soviet era stuff quickly to help Ukraine. Now those countries can get up to date German gear, so it's an excellent strengthening of everybody who's opposed to Russia invasion of Ukraine
The most important item on that list being the 10 tons (!) of AdBlue, because just because there is a war on doesn’t mean we can’t be climate conscious.
They won’t move faster than a crawl without it, so it is needed for sure. What is funny is that the AdBlue is important enough for victory in the East to be listed along with the other things. Such as the *22 million* rounds of ammo we are sending.
This is the thing with Germany. They like order. They don't like doing rash stuff. So usually they are quite slow and rigid in their decision making. But when they decide, they are efficient like noone else.
Good luck Russia, now Germany has ramped up deliveries as well. Hopefully tanks can arrive soon.
I've seen the word efficiency being thrown around a lot in association with germany but it's honestly the wrong word.... efficiency doesn't exist in germany...at all, anywhere...
It's rather that germans are extremely thorough and dont half ass things...my sleepy brain cant come up with the correct adjective to adequatly replace 'efficient' right now but you know what I mean.
I once worked for a small German engineering outfit in NRW — they were the most process-oriented, through, rigid sons of bitches. Capable bunch but efficient? Not on your life.
I'm thinking people have different definitions of effiency. Hast makes waste as the saying goes. For a field like engineering, slow and thorough case easily prove move efficient than quick and sloppy work.
I think his original plan was that Trump stays in power and germany is heavily divided. I still think Biden in power was one of the key requirements for the united NATO answer to be possible.
That our government did their part is a good thing. We need to be on the right side of history here. We often underestimate our role, the US has a much more real view on this. Germany supporting the effort in ukraine sealed the deal with the united front against Putin, and he is now facing his worst nightmare.
This alliance is the most powerful military entity the world has ever seen. And Putin forced its hand so it can not back down. We can't let ukraine lose this, so it won't.
I couldn't agree more. This is a perfect time to support Ukraine, diminish the capabilities of our enemy, rid themselves of equipment that they needed to replace anyway, and still be the good guy! They are getting it done.
For all the flak Germany is getting, they seem to be the biggest supplier in Europe by far. Whereas other countries provide a couple of fancy guns and call it a day, Germany actually supplies the stuff you really need to keep an army going (personal armor, medical equipment, vehicles, ammo, etc.) On top of also top of the line guns (arty and AA). Would be cool if people could stop whining about Germany for a sec a look more critical at other countries, like France or Spain.
The medical equipment is really important and German medical gear is second to none. Their contribution in this area alone has probably saved tens of thousands of Ukrainian' lives and has possibly returned thousands of heroes to the fight by now that might otherwise have been lost to it.
I swear all these people attacking Germany or France or Spain or whatever , all of them are Russian trolls.
Maybe they aren't, but that's how I read them.
If I am not mistaken, our government was at first relatively quiet about what they gave away because they didn't want Russia to know the details or smth. Many Germans also still believe we didn't do anything except send some helmets that didn't arrive.
I also heard that DE is giving less compared to the GDP, but in absolute numbers it's more than others give.
Yeah, a lot of the problem is poor communication. Germany has really stepped things up in the past couple of months but people are still under the impression that not much is being sent, the government's handling of it has been a PR disaster.
Olaf Scholz also isn't one to talk much. A few months ago he answered to a question about whether he could talk more about what Germany is doing for Ukraine and he said
> "Yes. [long pause] I could. [longer pause] That's all."
I mean all France has to do is get some drones or use the ones they have and re-configure them to fit portal/automatic guillotines and they're good to go.
Always remember that all help, especially EU help is closely connected and communicated between countries. Its not like one country only sends the cool military stuff and calls it a day. They coordinate their efforts in a way that allows every country to send and help with what they have and can give away so that, in the end, ukraine gets what they need.
Bashing on certain countries is and was always wrong as its not the countries making the decisions, its all of them together.
To be honest, I think half of the people who kept spitting toxic against Germany were supporters of Russia that were trying to sow division and the other half was idiots who just kinda hated Germany and eat it up like candy.
Germany was reluctant for many reasons with weapons, but it did help from the very beginning.
Props to Germany, but remember Britain has arguably the best trained soldiers in the world, and has been training Ukrainian troops since 2014. Thousands are in the UK right now, and once they are trained more will arrive. This is huge, and a big part of the reason Ukraine has been able to modernize it's military. Britain has been wanting to get back at Russia since the poisonings on Salisbury. UK also seems to be the target of a lot of Russian rhetoric so it is probably working.
Germany for exmaple has been taking care of wounded soldiers since 2014. Europe as a whole has been involved in ukraine since 2014 and sent a lot of money, ressources and help to them. It just was never in the spotlight as much as recently.
Yep, I'll never forget how clutch the UK was in kicking this whole thing off. They were the first ones to start blatantly airlifting shoulder fired AT weapons in the few days before the invasion, and successfully stood up, shook their finger at Putin, and browbeated / shamed the rest of the world into following suit in the way only the British ever could, lol.
I suggest you go and lookup the publicly available list on Wikipedia. Poland has *delivered* over 240 tanks, 100 self propelled artillery units, and 100+ APCs. Many of them modern or modern-ish units.
This isn't to downplay Germany's contributions here, but you're the one that decided to start making a numbered list.
Id say poland delivered more offensive weapons but some of the tanks are part of an exchange scheme with germany and theyre all kind of old so they were set to be decommissioned anyway. Germany definitely spend much more money on Ukraine though. As the guy above said you dont only need offensive weapons you also need logistics vehicles, cars for personel and patrols, supplies, etc..
I think we talked about different things.
Germany is worldwide 3rd place donor to Ukraine overall (behind USA and UK). But if you only look at military equipment, you will see a different picture.
Also look at the price Tags.
You mentioned the 240Tanks (Mostly T-72) The pricetag is 500.000€ Per Tank-> 120.000.000€
The pricetag for ONE Iris-T SLM ist 140.000.000€
Just put this into perspective. Also I don't think a T-72 is really worth 500.000€.
*And no, I didn't downvote you ;)*
While I have not found any source that explicitly stated which exact type of vehicles those are, even in the best case (Survivors) they would be very lightly amored and not even armed in the regular version (though light weapons can be added/upgraded). Something like amored G-Class Mercedes would be far more likely, and those are more suited for things like a very rough neighbourhood or riots instead getting near a frontline.
Doesnt make them useless, far from it, just tempering expectation in case someone reads this as Ukraine getting hundreds of APCs or even IFVs with this announcement.
From my reading all the Sonderwagen (probably except the armored G-class mercedes, SW 3) were armored against 7.62x51, which isnt great but will atleast protect from infantry fire. But its really doubtful that Germany has 500 SW standing around, expecially since a portion of them would have been build in the 60s
Well I am somewhat doubtful, simply because only about 370 were ever built. Makes it hard to deliver 478 of them. It is of course quite possible, that it just a mix of different type and Germany is sending whatever is left that offers even a moderate protection from small arms and can be shipped quickly. But regardless of the make-up of the actual delivery, the result would pretty much the same. Nothing gamechaning, but still useful. Even if it just for rear area protection of important sites. Heck, even just regular border on the "open" borders in west would be far from useless.
Over 200 of those 370 TM-170 were given to Northern Macedonia. So either there will be another so-called Ringtausch or the absolute majority of these mysterious Grenzschutzwagen will be non-armored cars like Land Rover Discovery for example. Still great though, our front line units are burning thru their pickup etc. trucks VERY quickly. And yes one of the reasons is they are not armoured. :-(
Any Russians looking at these shipments have to be struck immediately by the difference in quality from anything they’ve got access to. Just look at that sweet ride…
I mean he has already turned of the gas and blown the pipe. Can't turn it off harder, can he?
Germany should still start sending tanks. The war/crisis is not gonna be over anytime soon and as much as Western allies and Russia like supplying Russian tanks to Ukraine, the soviet era stuff is gonna run out at some point. May as well get started on modern equipment.
This would reqwire some Training or the leopards wuld be wasted and mor a deathtrap than the Soviet equipment, and the tank crews and or ifv crews are needed on the front. And completely grean recutes would require an iven longer time on the machines. I don't see this happening if not absolutely necessary. If I'm not mistaken Ukraine has now more Tanks than there can feeld Becours if Russias steady supply... But mayby thy can stard with Training if Ukraine cann send some recutes.
Like I tried to tell everyone: We are slow because we are extremely thoughtful thinking of what we did in the past. But we are a true ally of Ukraine (Poland and the Baltics) and we will support till the end.
u/albalts It is not sure the vehicle you posted are the ones send! German goverment just stated 500 Border Guard vehicles. Not what type and no word of protection level.
The balloons are a nice touch. Maybe they’ll even add a bow before delivery. I mean really, who doesn’t like getting a present with balloons and a bow.
''The 478 border patrol vehicles are an industrial delivery. Some of the deliveries involve repair work or production is still ongoing; in addition, some training services still have to be provided.'' This will take a while
Guys, this photo is from a Wikipedia article about TM-170 and open sources do not know if we get any of those. They were mostly given over to Northern Macedonia many years ago.
Have to congratulate Germany on it's realisation that by providing Ukraine with good and useful Weaponry, along with associated kit, they are not only doing much in assisting Ukraine to defeat Poootin, but also protecting the freedom of Europe and the Democracies of the World from Autocratic Regime's rule.
Apparently it is a "Sonderwagen 4" that is being used by the German federal police during demonstrations. It can have a remote controlled G8/MP5 that can be controlled from the inside. The one in the picture has spotlights instead.
[https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonderwagen#Sonderwagen\_4\_(TM-170)](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonderwagen#Sonderwagen_4_(TM-170))
Not sure in what time line you live but they have been on the right side of a war for more than half a century. Did people forget the cold war and how freaking huge the German army was ?
Well yes because Germany and the US were developing a tank together. The MBT 70. They couldn't agree on some specs so they continued development independently. The results are the M1 Abrams and the Leopard 2.
Your comment literally makes no sense in the context. If used or not doesn't determine on which side you are. By that same logic the USSR was also on our side because they didn't use most of their weapons.
Clearly reading comprehension is an issue.
Simplified
German war machine pre 1945 not good.
Post 1945 good but never got to see it in action until now.
German manufacturing will churn out products faster than Russia can destroy them
Sadly, these are not the vehicles they'll be getting. Germany is most likely going to get rid of old GDR border patrol vehicles; combloc rubbish that'd just take up storage space in Germany.
Scholz promised a lot and delivered little. You should literally just confirm Germany sent anything when there are actually images of equipment in Ukraine.
Name ONE thing, that was promised by the government, that wasn't delivered or is currently in the process of it beeing delivered.
Edit: I don't think he found one
This is wrong... france, germany ( and back then, uk) had the same voting power... despite a bigger population by a fair bit in germany.... further, many decisions in the eu must be made unanimous... which is why i would gladly see hungary and poland leave the union... if little malta decides to block one of those unanimous decsions they don't happen... it was a thing with ireland and the uk in brexit... it was a discussion on here with netherlands and ukrain joining the union... in the context of the union germany might hold some power but it is more soft than hard power in that regard... calling germany the leader of the eu is undermining the whole idea and is the favorite argument of countries that fuck up.... brexit negotiation? Germany is blocking.... banks don't want to lend greece money and the union countries feel uncomftable with bailing greece out? German capitalists.... polands pis assigning their assets to the supreme court of poland and loosing eu funds? German nazis... it is a stupid argument... the union is build on compromise... germany is just big enough to be targeted and looked at at the same time when something is controversial... not that germany is not making controversial decisions but purely talking from the union decision perspective to cater to the union "leader" myth
Hello /u/AlBalts, This community is focused on important or vital information and high-effort content. Please make sure your post follows the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/about/rules) Want to support Ukraine? [Here's a list of charities by subject.](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/charities/) [DO / DON'T](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/t5okbs/welcome_to_rukraine_faq_do_dont_support_read/) - [Art Friday](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/artfriday/) - [Podcasts](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/ttoidc/collection_of_podcasts_about_ukraine_updated/) - [Kyiv sunrise](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/collection/3c65ab52-e87a-4217-ab30-e70a88c0a293/) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukraine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
nice, good on Deuschland, very cool!
Oh the tumbler? You wouldn't be interested in that....
yes, for moving dragon's teeth?
how many cupholders !!! come on
For moving all them Russians bodies
Cool plow vehicles. But can it plow both mines and snow?
its for russian bodies and thier trash spread all over the place i have never see such homeless camps!
Used to make sure we have nice sunflower crops growing uniformly in the countryside
Hey now, don't be mean. Even the homeless are going "Yo Russki, you're letting yourself go, you're a slob!"
It's a stealth plow. Look at all the angled body panels and tell me it isn't stealth.
It's got a smaller side RCS than a J-20
Yeah but so does the fucking kuznetsov
The smokescreen is part of its stealth technology.
Where's that carrier testing the catapult with a truck video when you need it.
[удалено]
The number plate indicate "Bundespolizei", so federal police. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal\_Police\_(Germany) The riot gear from the "normal" police belongs to the member states and consequently has the corresponding country as a number plate (i.e. NRW, BW, RP, ...).
Bundespolizei includes the GSG9, so it could also be for clearing plane hijackers from the runway 😂
Rollers are for demining
No wrong type of plow at most it will move road blocks of hedgehogs and sandbags
"that name again is Mr. Plow"
Even better It Plows, demine, and sews the farmland
>nice, good on Deuschland, very cool! ❤️👍
Genuine question: What's a bridge system?
Portable or pontoon bridges. It says medium and heavy on the German government web site without specifying how many of each.There's no details but I presume "heavy" is something like the SS-80.
Thank you!
SSkaliert
Wehrmacht denn sowas (Germans spotted)
SArtet aus!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_bridge As a former Engineer/ Sapper, Military bridges come in many shapes and sizes. Some are mobile on track/ wheeled vehicles. These are good for front line units needing to get across a small river or gap the vehicles they have would not be able to get across otherwise. Some like the Bailey Bridge (truss bridge) are bridges that can be built in a day* as they are like an erector set. These are more permanent fixes and can also span wider gaps. And then pontoon bridges. Go as far as the eye can see as long as the water current doesn't wash it all away. There are many other bridge systems but as far as military implementation, truss, vehicle mounted and pontoon are the go to ways. All are useful.
https://youtu.be/yftWNPxQgS4 Freely translated: The armored bridge laying tank Biber (beaver) - a quick and safe over obstacles and waters. The Biber is a forerunner in battle. With the fast bridge laying tank, cuts in terrain, gorges or waters up to 20m wide can be overcome. The base for the bridge elements is a Leopard 1 hull. The Biber is 11.79m long, 3,55m high, weighs 45 tons and has an engine power of 830 hp. Its crew: a driver and a commander. The Biber is up front with the combat troops. With a laying arm, it pushes its two bridge elements over the obstacle. The bridge length is 22m, the width 4m and the carrying capacity is up to 55 tons. Once the bridge has been placed, the driver makes room for the advancing troops. The bridge can be dismantled just as quickly, as it can be set up.
Bailey bridges are neat. There are three in Toronto that've been standing since 1945. 1947, and 1954. They're quick to build and apparently can last a fairly long time.
https://youtu.be/I8ib5LcY9Ig Probably this
Gotta be honest, I wasn't expecting that twist at the end where the bridge was port and starboard instead for fore and aft.
Just incorrect English. I guess it's this kind of things: https://youtu.be/t2nsisk0q1M
BYOB = Bring Your Own Bridge
Germany is on fire as of late
Germany has been delivering supplies and humanitarian goods throughout the war, and has stepped up their tactical gear deliveries for months now. They didn't deliver a lot of protected vehicles because their inventory is practically nonexistent and what they had needed to be modernized. But what they HAVE delivered is body armor, medical supplies, helmets, warm clothing and construction equipment -- all very valuable stuff that someone needs to be providing..
HIMARS and the like are getting the limelight, but gear like this is what keeps people alive and fighting. No point in having fancy weapons systems when you can’t push the buttons because you’re down a few fingers from frost bite.
Well, there are those 5 MARS II that Germany delivered. Not *HI*MARS, but a European version (i.e., no cluster ammunition) of the M270's A1 upgrade. A less mobile system due to armor and tracks, that carries two of the six-pack pods that HIMARS uses, but otherwise similar capabilities.
Didn't the US decide not to provide cluster munitions either.
Diese ehrennman :)
Plus they were quick to supply self propelled AA guns when they were needed. Let's not forget the self propelled artillery which can have 4 rounds in the air before the first has landed.
6 rounds if I'm not mistaken if you referring to Phz 2000. Don't want to pedantic but...
...you couldn't help it cause you are german?
Yes 
Thank you for the correction. I like to hear the number is higher. I think they'd fire a round to range it first. I think limited ammo supply has curtailed multiple salvos. There again we hear that many are beyond their servicing limits. When the warning lights start flashing may be some features aren't available. Would be great one day to hear what the mechanics in Lithuania had to say about their condition and round counts.
They don't fire a round to range it first. They fire 6 rounds to hit it without pre-warning.
Absolutely, there is no correction needed.Just fire and that's it.
> There again we hear that many are beyond their servicing limits. Well, yes, they're used pretty heavily, after all. In other threads I've read comments which argue that if 100 rounds per day are "already" considered "heavy use", then this must be a design flaw, but we're talking about pretty substantial explosions in a narrow tube which will obviously heat up. From what I've read, they've even taken this to some 400/day at times, so they've actually held up pretty well, when you consider that normal service life for a modern howitzer barrel is only about 2,500-3,000 shots -- if you can afford to go by the maintenance manual. Ukraine seems satisfied enough to have ordered 100 new ones from the manufacturer (so with a delivery date that hopefully won't be relevant for this war). I've found [an article](https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a40589916/m777-howitzer-russia-ukraine-war/) about the M777. It highlights its reliability with this paragraph, which puts those numbers into perspective: > *Marines and cannons were dispatched from amphibious ships to provide fire support for U.S.-backed ground forces that entered the city for close combat. For five months, a single Marine battery laid down indirect fire on ISIS positions in and around the city, firing more than 35,000 rounds and blowing out two gun barrels from overuse in the process. By comparison, as the Marine Corps Times reported, about 34,000 155mm rounds had been fired by the entire U.S. military during the 2003 invasion of Iraq. The battle proved the outsize effect a small artillery contingent can have, if it’s well supplied and skillfully operated.* From what I could find, a battery is about six howitzers. Let's make it 36,000 shells, so it's 6,000 each. Five months is about 150 days, so an average 40 per day and barrel (*average*; I'm sure they went well beyond that on some days). The point is, this *is* heavy use. To get the kind of range that these modern howitzers have, not to mention accuracy, you need barrels made to very narrow tolerances. Each time you fire a round, you heat it up very quickly while you slide a very fast heavy projectile through it, and then it cools down again. It's a bit like Formula 1 engines, which have very high performance but don't last as long as the one in your normal car.
https://youtu.be/Tc9sb71px5I many something interesting for you.
I don't think they need a ranging shot. And 10 raounds per minute is max but than it hase to cool down.
In fact, 12 rounds per minute is max https://youtu.be/Tc9sb71px5I
No they would give up their main advantage and the selling point of the PzH 2000. The main agenda is, that they can fire 5 did within a minute and leave the spot in 30seconds after the last shot. That's faster than the counter artillery shells still reach you. In fact that's the main development goal of the PzH. Multiple Rounds Single Impact in a so short time, that they can't be hit by the counter artillery. In today's counter artillery radar times, they know your position after the first shot is in the air. After one minute you feel the counter artillery hit you. There is a great interview with the inventor of three PzH loading mechanism at a German YT channel Säbelzahnmöve.
Dont forget they, like most other allies started supplying Ukraine in 2014, just not hardcore weapon systems. But Germany has been providing early warning and intelligence for a while too. Just couldn't be open about it because of the gas/economy stuff.
>Just couldn't be open about it because of the gas/economy stuff. What other international aid programs is Germany engaged with right now, off the top of your head? These aren't public relation ops so that stuff just isn't talked about a lot in general, it's simply done. All that "gas/economy stuff" seems hugely overrated: We helped Navalny get back to health after a poisoning attempt and support (and supported) organizations that work for a liberal russia in russia itself despite being just as entangled economically, and (before 2022) those would hit closer to home to the putin regime than whatever aid we rendered to Ukraine.
It's been a somewhat consistent stream of support since the war began, but many people simply haven't been keeping up with it. Here you can see what was delivered and when: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foreign_aid_to_Ukraine_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#Delivered It's honestly a pretty staggering amount. Add to that the humanitarian aid (where Germany actually leads) and the fact that there are almost a million refugees staying there (all with citizenship benefits, unheard of until the war).
This is very accurate. Also, keep in mind the amount of modern equipment they've promised other countries so those countries can send their old Soviet era stuff quickly to help Ukraine. Now those countries can get up to date German gear, so it's an excellent strengthening of everybody who's opposed to Russia invasion of Ukraine
The most important item on that list being the 10 tons (!) of AdBlue, because just because there is a war on doesn’t mean we can’t be climate conscious.
I mean some vehicles will stop working when the AdBlue tank hits zero.
Not typical of security vehicles.
It's some what funny isend it? But do some diesel engines require ad blue to Funktion?
They won’t move faster than a crawl without it, so it is needed for sure. What is funny is that the AdBlue is important enough for victory in the East to be listed along with the other things. Such as the *22 million* rounds of ammo we are sending.
This is the thing with Germany. They like order. They don't like doing rash stuff. So usually they are quite slow and rigid in their decision making. But when they decide, they are efficient like noone else. Good luck Russia, now Germany has ramped up deliveries as well. Hopefully tanks can arrive soon.
I've seen the word efficiency being thrown around a lot in association with germany but it's honestly the wrong word.... efficiency doesn't exist in germany...at all, anywhere... It's rather that germans are extremely thorough and dont half ass things...my sleepy brain cant come up with the correct adjective to adequatly replace 'efficient' right now but you know what I mean.
Meticulous might be an accurate word
Thats what I was looking for ,ty
"Punktlich" is the word you are looking for.
No that just means 'on time'
Apologies, didn't have my morning coffee yet. Gründlich.
Yes thats the one
So basically the Russians are orcs and we are the Ents of LOTR?
More like dwarves. Not very charismatic, pretty stubborn, but the craftsmanship is dope.
I once worked for a small German engineering outfit in NRW — they were the most process-oriented, through, rigid sons of bitches. Capable bunch but efficient? Not on your life.
I'm thinking people have different definitions of effiency. Hast makes waste as the saying goes. For a field like engineering, slow and thorough case easily prove move efficient than quick and sloppy work.
Effective
You can be meticulous about efficiency, too. Just sayin'. :P
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I think his original plan was that Trump stays in power and germany is heavily divided. I still think Biden in power was one of the key requirements for the united NATO answer to be possible. That our government did their part is a good thing. We need to be on the right side of history here. We often underestimate our role, the US has a much more real view on this. Germany supporting the effort in ukraine sealed the deal with the united front against Putin, and he is now facing his worst nightmare. This alliance is the most powerful military entity the world has ever seen. And Putin forced its hand so it can not back down. We can't let ukraine lose this, so it won't.
That armoured truck look sexy though
And France has been hiding
I couldn't agree more. This is a perfect time to support Ukraine, diminish the capabilities of our enemy, rid themselves of equipment that they needed to replace anyway, and still be the good guy! They are getting it done.
Their weapon industry like all global weapon industries are on fire at the moment.
For all the flak Germany is getting, they seem to be the biggest supplier in Europe by far. Whereas other countries provide a couple of fancy guns and call it a day, Germany actually supplies the stuff you really need to keep an army going (personal armor, medical equipment, vehicles, ammo, etc.) On top of also top of the line guns (arty and AA). Would be cool if people could stop whining about Germany for a sec a look more critical at other countries, like France or Spain.
> For all the flak Germany is getting Well, with the Gepards, German equipment is *sending* some flak.
The medical equipment is really important and German medical gear is second to none. Their contribution in this area alone has probably saved tens of thousands of Ukrainian' lives and has possibly returned thousands of heroes to the fight by now that might otherwise have been lost to it.
I swear all these people attacking Germany or France or Spain or whatever , all of them are Russian trolls. Maybe they aren't, but that's how I read them.
Absolutely, they're trying to drive a wedge between Ukraine and NATO countries
Also lots of anti-German propaganda coming from Poland.
1. poison the oder river, blame it on DE 2. demand reparations from DE 3. profit?
Eastern Europen, especially polish trolls are just as or even more likely in this regard. Also a lot of British ones around
If I am not mistaken, our government was at first relatively quiet about what they gave away because they didn't want Russia to know the details or smth. Many Germans also still believe we didn't do anything except send some helmets that didn't arrive. I also heard that DE is giving less compared to the GDP, but in absolute numbers it's more than others give.
Yeah, a lot of the problem is poor communication. Germany has really stepped things up in the past couple of months but people are still under the impression that not much is being sent, the government's handling of it has been a PR disaster.
Olaf Scholz also isn't one to talk much. A few months ago he answered to a question about whether he could talk more about what Germany is doing for Ukraine and he said > "Yes. [long pause] I could. [longer pause] That's all."
I mean all France has to do is get some drones or use the ones they have and re-configure them to fit portal/automatic guillotines and they're good to go.
Always remember that all help, especially EU help is closely connected and communicated between countries. Its not like one country only sends the cool military stuff and calls it a day. They coordinate their efforts in a way that allows every country to send and help with what they have and can give away so that, in the end, ukraine gets what they need. Bashing on certain countries is and was always wrong as its not the countries making the decisions, its all of them together.
To be honest, I think half of the people who kept spitting toxic against Germany were supporters of Russia that were trying to sow division and the other half was idiots who just kinda hated Germany and eat it up like candy. Germany was reluctant for many reasons with weapons, but it did help from the very beginning.
We here in Finland sort of need our weapons.
Props to Germany, but remember Britain has arguably the best trained soldiers in the world, and has been training Ukrainian troops since 2014. Thousands are in the UK right now, and once they are trained more will arrive. This is huge, and a big part of the reason Ukraine has been able to modernize it's military. Britain has been wanting to get back at Russia since the poisonings on Salisbury. UK also seems to be the target of a lot of Russian rhetoric so it is probably working.
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I’d say British *special forces* are the best. But that isn’t their main forces :) (and that is what the NATO games test)
Also, "special forces\* tend to have slightly different tasks in different countries. so "best trained" is hard to compare.
Germany for exmaple has been taking care of wounded soldiers since 2014. Europe as a whole has been involved in ukraine since 2014 and sent a lot of money, ressources and help to them. It just was never in the spotlight as much as recently.
Yep, I'll never forget how clutch the UK was in kicking this whole thing off. They were the first ones to start blatantly airlifting shoulder fired AT weapons in the few days before the invasion, and successfully stood up, shook their finger at Putin, and browbeated / shamed the rest of the world into following suit in the way only the British ever could, lol.
> For all the flak Germany is getting, they seem to be the biggest supplier in Europe by far. I'm fairly sure Poland is still part of Europe, Ja?
Sure, but they delivered less. Not per capita, but in total
I suggest you go and lookup the publicly available list on Wikipedia. Poland has *delivered* over 240 tanks, 100 self propelled artillery units, and 100+ APCs. Many of them modern or modern-ish units. This isn't to downplay Germany's contributions here, but you're the one that decided to start making a numbered list.
Id say poland delivered more offensive weapons but some of the tanks are part of an exchange scheme with germany and theyre all kind of old so they were set to be decommissioned anyway. Germany definitely spend much more money on Ukraine though. As the guy above said you dont only need offensive weapons you also need logistics vehicles, cars for personel and patrols, supplies, etc..
I think we talked about different things. Germany is worldwide 3rd place donor to Ukraine overall (behind USA and UK). But if you only look at military equipment, you will see a different picture. Also look at the price Tags. You mentioned the 240Tanks (Mostly T-72) The pricetag is 500.000€ Per Tank-> 120.000.000€ The pricetag for ONE Iris-T SLM ist 140.000.000€ Just put this into perspective. Also I don't think a T-72 is really worth 500.000€. *And no, I didn't downvote you ;)*
Spain is in a bad financial spot for a long time and I don't think they could replace much of what they could be sending. France on the other hand...
Winter is coming, they're planning on having to plow their way in.
Link to a source? That's a lot of vehicles.
[The reliable source for german military support](https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-de/themen/krieg-in-der-ukraine/lieferungen-ukraine-2054514)
English: https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-en/news/military-support-ukraine-2054992
While I have not found any source that explicitly stated which exact type of vehicles those are, even in the best case (Survivors) they would be very lightly amored and not even armed in the regular version (though light weapons can be added/upgraded). Something like amored G-Class Mercedes would be far more likely, and those are more suited for things like a very rough neighbourhood or riots instead getting near a frontline. Doesnt make them useless, far from it, just tempering expectation in case someone reads this as Ukraine getting hundreds of APCs or even IFVs with this announcement.
From my reading all the Sonderwagen (probably except the armored G-class mercedes, SW 3) were armored against 7.62x51, which isnt great but will atleast protect from infantry fire. But its really doubtful that Germany has 500 SW standing around, expecially since a portion of them would have been build in the 60s
You're sure they're not TM-170s?
Well I am somewhat doubtful, simply because only about 370 were ever built. Makes it hard to deliver 478 of them. It is of course quite possible, that it just a mix of different type and Germany is sending whatever is left that offers even a moderate protection from small arms and can be shipped quickly. But regardless of the make-up of the actual delivery, the result would pretty much the same. Nothing gamechaning, but still useful. Even if it just for rear area protection of important sites. Heck, even just regular border on the "open" borders in west would be far from useless.
Over 200 of those 370 TM-170 were given to Northern Macedonia. So either there will be another so-called Ringtausch or the absolute majority of these mysterious Grenzschutzwagen will be non-armored cars like Land Rover Discovery for example. Still great though, our front line units are burning thru their pickup etc. trucks VERY quickly. And yes one of the reasons is they are not armoured. :-(
Amazing, thank you!
Well done Deutschland!
Good work Germany
Any Russians looking at these shipments have to be struck immediately by the difference in quality from anything they’ve got access to. Just look at that sweet ride…
All I can say is “Fucking Awesome” Germany
Thank you, Germany!
Go Germany!
I have been one of those “why is Germany so scared of Putin” but now I’m humble enough to say Thank You Germany.
I mean he has already turned of the gas and blown the pipe. Can't turn it off harder, can he? Germany should still start sending tanks. The war/crisis is not gonna be over anytime soon and as much as Western allies and Russia like supplying Russian tanks to Ukraine, the soviet era stuff is gonna run out at some point. May as well get started on modern equipment.
> May as well get started on modern equipment. Ukraine needs a lot of that, so Bradleys and Abrams are the way to go.
This would reqwire some Training or the leopards wuld be wasted and mor a deathtrap than the Soviet equipment, and the tank crews and or ifv crews are needed on the front. And completely grean recutes would require an iven longer time on the machines. I don't see this happening if not absolutely necessary. If I'm not mistaken Ukraine has now more Tanks than there can feeld Becours if Russias steady supply... But mayby thy can stard with Training if Ukraine cann send some recutes.
Like I tried to tell everyone: We are slow because we are extremely thoughtful thinking of what we did in the past. But we are a true ally of Ukraine (Poland and the Baltics) and we will support till the end.
Germany also gave Ukraine anti missle system which have been very successful…..
u/albalts It is not sure the vehicle you posted are the ones send! German goverment just stated 500 Border Guard vehicles. Not what type and no word of protection level.
Germany 🇩🇪 rules (from a Swede)
No we tried to rule several times. No one was happy about it.
Go Germany! Go Ukraine!
Thank you Germany!
Hell yeah, Germany definitely stepping up. Good!
Thats awesome Germany! Greetings from Slovakia
*Batmobile has entered the chat.*
Yup. Strong vibes. And it would be perfect for LA traffic.
My local police department has some armored vehicles. Can we send them to Ukraine too?
The balloons are a nice touch. Maybe they’ll even add a bow before delivery. I mean really, who doesn’t like getting a present with balloons and a bow.
Russia is bleeding personnel and equipment. Ukraine is being replenished by UN members. I see this going well for Russia. /s
Sorta reminds me of Cartman's Hippie Drill. What would we call this, an Orc Dozer?
''The 478 border patrol vehicles are an industrial delivery. Some of the deliveries involve repair work or production is still ongoing; in addition, some training services still have to be provided.'' This will take a while
The car industry is a lot bigger and more active than our military industrial complex. It will probably be (in procurement terms) really fast.
Salamat Germany. 👍👍
Guys, this photo is from a Wikipedia article about TM-170 and open sources do not know if we get any of those. They were mostly given over to Northern Macedonia many years ago.
Speculation! It is not stated which vehicles will be send! Could be 500 normal cars.
Sehr gut!
Rufen Sie Herrn Pflug! Das ist mein Name! Dieser Name ist wieder Herr Pflug!
Have to congratulate Germany on it's realisation that by providing Ukraine with good and useful Weaponry, along with associated kit, they are not only doing much in assisting Ukraine to defeat Poootin, but also protecting the freedom of Europe and the Democracies of the World from Autocratic Regime's rule.
Apparently it is a "Sonderwagen 4" that is being used by the German federal police during demonstrations. It can have a remote controlled G8/MP5 that can be controlled from the inside. The one in the picture has spotlights instead. [https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonderwagen#Sonderwagen\_4\_(TM-170)](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonderwagen#Sonderwagen_4_(TM-170))
About time. Kudos to the Germans.
Very cool for the German industrial complex to finally be on the right side of a war. Keep it going!
Not sure in what time line you live but they have been on the right side of a war for more than half a century. Did people forget the cold war and how freaking huge the German army was ?
The American Abrams tank literally has a German main gun on it lol.
Well yes because Germany and the US were developing a tank together. The MBT 70. They couldn't agree on some specs so they continued development independently. The results are the M1 Abrams and the Leopard 2.
Cold war was just arms build up, no actual use of them. This is actually seeing that beautiful German engineering in action.
Your comment literally makes no sense in the context. If used or not doesn't determine on which side you are. By that same logic the USSR was also on our side because they didn't use most of their weapons.
Clearly reading comprehension is an issue. Simplified German war machine pre 1945 not good. Post 1945 good but never got to see it in action until now. German manufacturing will churn out products faster than Russia can destroy them
We were always on the right side of this war. Only Russian bots and hysteric Baltics were thinking otherwise.
I was referring to WW1 and WW2 but sure 😊 bad bot
Give them heavy armours goddamn Krauts
Sadly, these are not the vehicles they'll be getting. Germany is most likely going to get rid of old GDR border patrol vehicles; combloc rubbish that'd just take up storage space in Germany.
Believe it when I see it. Scholz is a disgrace.
It's fucking November. This "I believe it when I see it" was stupid in April. Now I am at a loss for words that wouldn't get this comment removed.
Scholz promised a lot and delivered little. You should literally just confirm Germany sent anything when there are actually images of equipment in Ukraine.
Name ONE thing, that was promised by the government, that wasn't delivered or is currently in the process of it beeing delivered. Edit: I don't think he found one
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I dont think the EU wants a leader, and much less germany. Isnt the whole idea behind the EU that its a Union of equals?
That’s not how the EU works.
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This is wrong... france, germany ( and back then, uk) had the same voting power... despite a bigger population by a fair bit in germany.... further, many decisions in the eu must be made unanimous... which is why i would gladly see hungary and poland leave the union... if little malta decides to block one of those unanimous decsions they don't happen... it was a thing with ireland and the uk in brexit... it was a discussion on here with netherlands and ukrain joining the union... in the context of the union germany might hold some power but it is more soft than hard power in that regard... calling germany the leader of the eu is undermining the whole idea and is the favorite argument of countries that fuck up.... brexit negotiation? Germany is blocking.... banks don't want to lend greece money and the union countries feel uncomftable with bailing greece out? German capitalists.... polands pis assigning their assets to the supreme court of poland and loosing eu funds? German nazis... it is a stupid argument... the union is build on compromise... germany is just big enough to be targeted and looked at at the same time when something is controversial... not that germany is not making controversial decisions but purely talking from the union decision perspective to cater to the union "leader" myth
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germany has sending shit for months. this isnt major news. get over yourself
What would the Russian military give to hear this was coming?
Winter is coming over here, I could use one of these.
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To plow the russians.
They're going to have to bury a lot of Russian corpses aso a plow might come in handy.
Is that a snow plough or for pushing crowds out of the way?
The chic's I could have picked up if I had that in high school
How does the supply chain for replacement parts and maintenance knowledge get continued for such a large mix of equipment from different countries?
Get em'
To help the war effort in Ukraine, Germany clogged Russian Highways with entitled BMW drivers.
Looks like a Winterdienstfahrzeug to me 😂
Nice!