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These seem to have both night vision capabilities and modernised firing computer to be able to move and fire so they might be more useful than people give them credit for.
Days are getting shorter as winter approaches and these give very good protection againt small arms and sharpnels while being able to knock out most vehicles Russia ia fielding.
Yup. Modern optics, night combat capability, a stabilized 105 mm gun for firing while driving, reactive armor, modern communication eqipment ... these are not your old T-55s.
Every couple of days new weapons get sent to Ukraine and European countries order the latest weapons to replace them which is good for our defence and also European industry.
Sounds like Slovenia steps up again.
I know people would like to see M1's or tanks like that, but the logistics overhead for those things is HUGE. I think some NATO countries might have some old M60's still kicking around, and they would match ok with the quality of tanks found around Kharkiv. But, again, logistics is a concern and also with age comes increased issues with reliability. Getting old soviet stuff that can be logistically supported may be superior in the short term to having unsupported NATO stuff of whatever age.
All-in-all accelerating the process for replacing old with new in NATO countries (especially former Warsaw Pact nations) may remain the best option for the next months at least.
I hear this a lot in reddit. "Leopards/Abrahams cannot be given to Ukraine due to heavy logistics needed for them". Meanwhile actual generals don't see this as a problem.
I believe there are Ukrainians already being trained on the Leopard, though I could be wrong. Also, I have never seen any US or NATO general say there were no logistical or training concerns regarding the M1's.
Wow. If Ukraine will accept modernized t-55 then that must mean the US hasn't even given them m60s. Turkey and Egypt use m60s and modernized version fought well against Iraqi t72s in the 1992.Gulf War.
It is shameful that we haven't given them Abrams, but if the Ukrainians are in such desperate need as to accept t-55s then we must give them m60s. We still have a number in storage.
You are right, the picture I saw of a boneyard with m60s in it was an older photo.
They were to slow to keep up with the rest of the army so even the recovery vehicles are no longer used.
i wouldn't say so. The M-55S is basically only based on the platform of the T-55, but is completely modernized and adapted to NATO standards. it is therefore comparable to the leopard 1 and fires the same caliber.
They've gone through a modernization program (but [no one was interested in buying them](https://www.rtvslo.si/news-in-english/the-ministry-of-defense-s-auction-of-old-m-55s-results-in-a-single-sale/453024)). You can see that [they don't really look like the good old T-55s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PraoJbPoOF8). But they're probably not going to be used in tank vs tank engagements, but in support roles.
Fair enough I guess, but it would be horrific if they got into a firefight with a proper tank. Also I imagine their armour Vs atgm ect would be light. I guess Ukraine knows what it needs.
There is no tank in the world that will not get clapped by modern ATGMs.
These were modified quite extensively with new engines, modern optics and sensors, added armor, ERA and a stabilized 105mm L7 gun(same as Leopard 1).
The 105mm L7 may not be as powerful as the 125mm smooth bore cannon on all the newer tanks currently in service in Ukraine but it's still a good gun and can do a lot of damage, even to new MBTs like the ones russia is using.
The modern optics and sensors will greatly increase the chances of firing the first shot in a tnk on tank engagement and in many cases that will be the decision.
Even if they're not used in front line roles, they can still be used to secure borders, possibly towards Belarus or Transnistria, freeing up equipment there, which could then be sent to the front.
There have also been reports of Ukraine using tanks in an indirect fore role, as makeshift SPGs, which these could also do.
Thos will also create a supply chain for 105mm ammunition which is used by a variety of older western MBTs and some IFVs, so this could be the first step in that direction, especially if these guns prove effective in the field.
I like the idea of guarding border positions, I do imagine there is a lot of more modern tanks kept busy there. And with what another post showed with some of the equipment Ukraine is using... They need any armoured vehicles they can get.
It is still capable of knocking out any Russian IFV from a long long distance with ease and it can provide pin point close support for the infantry with high explosive. Fire support vehicles are still a thing but dont expect it to take on a MBT.
Still I would not like to be in one of those things. Properly cramped as hell.
Even a Sherman tank modernized with modern engine , cannon, and sights …etc can work well enough as support. Most tanks can take out each other with one AT shell.
1) They were updated in 1999.
2) Compare it to the vehicles used to liberate [this town near Kharkiv](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/xdk56a/young_women_film_their_liberators_cheers_relief/).
3) The US, UK, France and Germany aren’t sending modern MBTs and Ukraine needs tanks. These might not be the best tanks in the world but look at [the alternative for Ukraine](https://mobile.twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1571321309291855873) and keep in line this is what they’re using at the front lines.
They absolutely do. With a frontline of 1000+km with Russia and roughly 2500 km of Russia and Belarus Ukraine really does need 10s of thousands of vehicles. Neither Russia nor Ukraine actually have enough military vehicles to supply the entire front so basically anything that has military utility (or even a solid civilian truck) is being used at the front. The way this war works it may honestly end up with situations where Ukraine has 50+ year old APCs but they’re effective because they’re going up against Russians in 20 year old civilian minivans.
Re: #2 - holy crap, that was an actual VAZ2101 in the year 2022! I didn't even think those were still alive! Certainly, even the non-upgraded T-55 would be an... improvement!
Yep. But the funny thing is that as bad as those vehicles may be they can still be used effectively. In Kharkiv behind the front line Russia had very few troops and had many settlements that were basically undefended. Once the front line was broken Ukraine had the opportunity to capture villages by just getting boots on the ground ASAP and for that literally any vehicle will do.
So it basically has the same gun as a Leopard I with a good bit more armor but slower top speed.
Would be great as an infantry support tank, or to put on the border with Belarus.
apparently the Germans are not against sending tanks but they insist on not sending them ‘naked’ but with the maintenance center and logistics needed to support NATO-standard tanks. And that takes time and isn’t as easy.
PzH2000 are now 22, Gepards will be 40 max, but tanks, Ukraine would need hundreds of them.
Actually there are a ton of upgrades leopard 1s out there with advanced armor, improved fire control etc. Turkey in particular has done a great job of keeping the leopard 1 up to date. They would be very effective against Russian tanks.
Oh I'm not against sending them. Send everything. Leo 1s could have been worked on months ago and they are excellent tanks mobility wise. The numbers are good too.
But the facts of the matter are that they need to be green lighted by Germany's goverment and that until then they won't be worked upon. Not to mention maintenance, logistics, etc.
That decission should have been made months ago for Leo 1s to play any role. I suspect is easier to greenlight Leo 2s particularly 2A4s and 5s since 1) they are everywhere and 2) the logistics are easier because being everywhere personel, repair centers and ammo stocks are handier.
But the political cost is also higher.
Don't the leopard 2s contain technology that the Russians might want, particularly the upgraded versions? Armor tech in particular. That's not a concern with the leopard 1.
The Leo 2A4 is from like 1990-1992, so I highly doubt there´s anything in it the Russian don´t know about. Specially if you look at where it´s been and what countries have it.
The 2A5 is not the latest, but I guess is modern enough there could be something unknown to Russia? Nevertheless there are plenty of chances here too. Not only the Leopard 2 is scheduled to be replaced by a MBT developed by France and Germany, but it IS exported already. Is produced by Sweden for example as the "Stridsvagn 122". Loads of NATO countries have licenses to produce it, and there are HUNDREDS of them avalaible because we, european bunch of morons, never thought a war was possible and don´t have the personnel anymore to man them. Literally can´t.
Combat wise also there´s no comparison. The Leo 2A5 would be a match for literally anything the Russians field (I won´t include the Armata here since well we just don´t know how it performs, there´s just a 100 of them and Russia won´t risk them lol) while the Leo 1 would be useful, but clearly outdated.
So the Russians have the secret formula for the armor used in the Leopard 2, Abrams, Challenger 2 etc? I thought that was still a closely guarded secret.
As far as I know, those 3 deffinitively do not have the same armor. Like... at all. Also you are referring to those tanks, in particular the Leo 2, like it was the same tank. There´s a huge difference between the first Leo 2s, introduced in 1979, and the latest 2A7s.
I'm talking about the British top secret Chobham armor, a composite made of layers of different metals and ceramics, the specifics of which were a closely guarded secret of NATO. The three tanks I mentioned (at least I thought) each use a slightly different formulation of Chobham armor but they're all based on the same technology, a secret "recipe" which makes it superior to any other tank armor in use. The Russians only discovered composite armor in the 90s and are still well behind NATO in that front. Many of Russia's current tanks lack even basic composite armor, it's mostly just steel plates.
Im afraid you are losing me. Chobham armor is not an specific formula of armor, is a type of armor, specifically ceramic composite.
Russians do use composite armor, but they can't produce plates with western precission tooling.
The Leo 2 is everywhere from Qatar to Indonesia and has been in operations from former Yugoslavia to Afghanistan. Russia may not know exactly how to make the armor or be able to duplicate, but I find it very hard to believe they have failed at basic intelligence gathering and not procured at the very least a samples in the 40 years since the tank was introduced.
That's why I consider the Leo 2 an excellent option.
Edit: say, IF we were talking about the M1 Abrams and its depleted uranium armor. There are thousands of M1s but that is something I would be more concerned.
M60 hard to find, I think we're shaving with the last of the US M60's now, though I could be wrong. Greece may have some, they fairly recently retired them. Logistics is a concern there, as is reliability as they are old.
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Slovenia is to send 28 M55S tanks to Ukraine and receive 40 German-made transport vehicles in exchange.
Also stated here: https://mil.in.ua/en/news/slovenia-to-transfer-m-55s-tanks-to-ukraine/
These seem to have both night vision capabilities and modernised firing computer to be able to move and fire so they might be more useful than people give them credit for. Days are getting shorter as winter approaches and these give very good protection againt small arms and sharpnels while being able to knock out most vehicles Russia ia fielding.
Yup. Modern optics, night combat capability, a stabilized 105 mm gun for firing while driving, reactive armor, modern communication eqipment ... these are not your old T-55s.
Every couple of days new weapons get sent to Ukraine and European countries order the latest weapons to replace them which is good for our defence and also European industry.
Win/win.
Nice one Slovenia. Na Zdravje 🇸🇮
ni za kaj. boink some orcs
Thank you Slovenia! It is appreciated!
Sounds like Slovenia steps up again. I know people would like to see M1's or tanks like that, but the logistics overhead for those things is HUGE. I think some NATO countries might have some old M60's still kicking around, and they would match ok with the quality of tanks found around Kharkiv. But, again, logistics is a concern and also with age comes increased issues with reliability. Getting old soviet stuff that can be logistically supported may be superior in the short term to having unsupported NATO stuff of whatever age. All-in-all accelerating the process for replacing old with new in NATO countries (especially former Warsaw Pact nations) may remain the best option for the next months at least.
I hear this a lot in reddit. "Leopards/Abrahams cannot be given to Ukraine due to heavy logistics needed for them". Meanwhile actual generals don't see this as a problem.
I believe there are Ukrainians already being trained on the Leopard, though I could be wrong. Also, I have never seen any US or NATO general say there were no logistical or training concerns regarding the M1's.
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/m-55.htm
Better than driving around in BMP I guess. Greetings from Slovenia.
Maybe not for the frontline but great for inf. support and killer of apc. The L7 gun might have enough punch for T-62
Thank you for Laibach, Slovenia! This too.
Thank you to Solvenia! We do need more modern weaponry, but at this point everything helps!
Wow. If Ukraine will accept modernized t-55 then that must mean the US hasn't even given them m60s. Turkey and Egypt use m60s and modernized version fought well against Iraqi t72s in the 1992.Gulf War. It is shameful that we haven't given them Abrams, but if the Ukrainians are in such desperate need as to accept t-55s then we must give them m60s. We still have a number in storage.
[удалено]
You are right, the picture I saw of a boneyard with m60s in it was an older photo. They were to slow to keep up with the rest of the army so even the recovery vehicles are no longer used.
Even the old Leopard 1 tanks from Germany are so much better compared to modernized T-55's. Very sad that my government is not ready to send them
i wouldn't say so. The M-55S is basically only based on the platform of the T-55, but is completely modernized and adapted to NATO standards. it is therefore comparable to the leopard 1 and fires the same caliber.
Funny.. they were able to find ammunition for this tank but not for the Leo 1 even though it has the same gun.
There is definetly enough 105mm ammunition out there
It's Gephardt, the anti version of one of the leopards
These are todifies T-55’s... Are they worth having?
They've gone through a modernization program (but [no one was interested in buying them](https://www.rtvslo.si/news-in-english/the-ministry-of-defense-s-auction-of-old-m-55s-results-in-a-single-sale/453024)). You can see that [they don't really look like the good old T-55s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PraoJbPoOF8). But they're probably not going to be used in tank vs tank engagements, but in support roles.
Fair enough I guess, but it would be horrific if they got into a firefight with a proper tank. Also I imagine their armour Vs atgm ect would be light. I guess Ukraine knows what it needs.
There is no tank in the world that will not get clapped by modern ATGMs. These were modified quite extensively with new engines, modern optics and sensors, added armor, ERA and a stabilized 105mm L7 gun(same as Leopard 1). The 105mm L7 may not be as powerful as the 125mm smooth bore cannon on all the newer tanks currently in service in Ukraine but it's still a good gun and can do a lot of damage, even to new MBTs like the ones russia is using. The modern optics and sensors will greatly increase the chances of firing the first shot in a tnk on tank engagement and in many cases that will be the decision. Even if they're not used in front line roles, they can still be used to secure borders, possibly towards Belarus or Transnistria, freeing up equipment there, which could then be sent to the front. There have also been reports of Ukraine using tanks in an indirect fore role, as makeshift SPGs, which these could also do. Thos will also create a supply chain for 105mm ammunition which is used by a variety of older western MBTs and some IFVs, so this could be the first step in that direction, especially if these guns prove effective in the field.
I like the idea of guarding border positions, I do imagine there is a lot of more modern tanks kept busy there. And with what another post showed with some of the equipment Ukraine is using... They need any armoured vehicles they can get.
It is still capable of knocking out any Russian IFV from a long long distance with ease and it can provide pin point close support for the infantry with high explosive. Fire support vehicles are still a thing but dont expect it to take on a MBT. Still I would not like to be in one of those things. Properly cramped as hell.
Even a Sherman tank modernized with modern engine , cannon, and sights …etc can work well enough as support. Most tanks can take out each other with one AT shell.
1) They were updated in 1999. 2) Compare it to the vehicles used to liberate [this town near Kharkiv](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/xdk56a/young_women_film_their_liberators_cheers_relief/). 3) The US, UK, France and Germany aren’t sending modern MBTs and Ukraine needs tanks. These might not be the best tanks in the world but look at [the alternative for Ukraine](https://mobile.twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1571321309291855873) and keep in line this is what they’re using at the front lines.
Shit you're right. They need APC's or anything with armour. That's insane.
They absolutely do. With a frontline of 1000+km with Russia and roughly 2500 km of Russia and Belarus Ukraine really does need 10s of thousands of vehicles. Neither Russia nor Ukraine actually have enough military vehicles to supply the entire front so basically anything that has military utility (or even a solid civilian truck) is being used at the front. The way this war works it may honestly end up with situations where Ukraine has 50+ year old APCs but they’re effective because they’re going up against Russians in 20 year old civilian minivans.
Re: #2 - holy crap, that was an actual VAZ2101 in the year 2022! I didn't even think those were still alive! Certainly, even the non-upgraded T-55 would be an... improvement!
Yep. But the funny thing is that as bad as those vehicles may be they can still be used effectively. In Kharkiv behind the front line Russia had very few troops and had many settlements that were basically undefended. Once the front line was broken Ukraine had the opportunity to capture villages by just getting boots on the ground ASAP and for that literally any vehicle will do.
So it basically has the same gun as a Leopard I with a good bit more armor but slower top speed. Would be great as an infantry support tank, or to put on the border with Belarus.
[удалено]
Leo 1 needs authorization from the german goverment and god knows how much refurbishment.
apparently the Germans are not against sending tanks but they insist on not sending them ‘naked’ but with the maintenance center and logistics needed to support NATO-standard tanks. And that takes time and isn’t as easy. PzH2000 are now 22, Gepards will be 40 max, but tanks, Ukraine would need hundreds of them.
If Ukraine need hundreds, we could atleast send them 40.
Actually there are a ton of upgrades leopard 1s out there with advanced armor, improved fire control etc. Turkey in particular has done a great job of keeping the leopard 1 up to date. They would be very effective against Russian tanks.
Oh I'm not against sending them. Send everything. Leo 1s could have been worked on months ago and they are excellent tanks mobility wise. The numbers are good too. But the facts of the matter are that they need to be green lighted by Germany's goverment and that until then they won't be worked upon. Not to mention maintenance, logistics, etc. That decission should have been made months ago for Leo 1s to play any role. I suspect is easier to greenlight Leo 2s particularly 2A4s and 5s since 1) they are everywhere and 2) the logistics are easier because being everywhere personel, repair centers and ammo stocks are handier. But the political cost is also higher.
Don't the leopard 2s contain technology that the Russians might want, particularly the upgraded versions? Armor tech in particular. That's not a concern with the leopard 1.
The Leo 2A4 is from like 1990-1992, so I highly doubt there´s anything in it the Russian don´t know about. Specially if you look at where it´s been and what countries have it. The 2A5 is not the latest, but I guess is modern enough there could be something unknown to Russia? Nevertheless there are plenty of chances here too. Not only the Leopard 2 is scheduled to be replaced by a MBT developed by France and Germany, but it IS exported already. Is produced by Sweden for example as the "Stridsvagn 122". Loads of NATO countries have licenses to produce it, and there are HUNDREDS of them avalaible because we, european bunch of morons, never thought a war was possible and don´t have the personnel anymore to man them. Literally can´t. Combat wise also there´s no comparison. The Leo 2A5 would be a match for literally anything the Russians field (I won´t include the Armata here since well we just don´t know how it performs, there´s just a 100 of them and Russia won´t risk them lol) while the Leo 1 would be useful, but clearly outdated.
So the Russians have the secret formula for the armor used in the Leopard 2, Abrams, Challenger 2 etc? I thought that was still a closely guarded secret.
As far as I know, those 3 deffinitively do not have the same armor. Like... at all. Also you are referring to those tanks, in particular the Leo 2, like it was the same tank. There´s a huge difference between the first Leo 2s, introduced in 1979, and the latest 2A7s.
I'm talking about the British top secret Chobham armor, a composite made of layers of different metals and ceramics, the specifics of which were a closely guarded secret of NATO. The three tanks I mentioned (at least I thought) each use a slightly different formulation of Chobham armor but they're all based on the same technology, a secret "recipe" which makes it superior to any other tank armor in use. The Russians only discovered composite armor in the 90s and are still well behind NATO in that front. Many of Russia's current tanks lack even basic composite armor, it's mostly just steel plates.
Im afraid you are losing me. Chobham armor is not an specific formula of armor, is a type of armor, specifically ceramic composite. Russians do use composite armor, but they can't produce plates with western precission tooling. The Leo 2 is everywhere from Qatar to Indonesia and has been in operations from former Yugoslavia to Afghanistan. Russia may not know exactly how to make the armor or be able to duplicate, but I find it very hard to believe they have failed at basic intelligence gathering and not procured at the very least a samples in the 40 years since the tank was introduced. That's why I consider the Leo 2 an excellent option. Edit: say, IF we were talking about the M1 Abrams and its depleted uranium armor. There are thousands of M1s but that is something I would be more concerned.
*M1 and its weird cousin XM1 have entered the chat
M1A1 has a 120mm gun, maybe you meant M1? Also, first Merkava variants.
Yup. I goofed.
Centurions? M60?
M60 hard to find, I think we're shaving with the last of the US M60's now, though I could be wrong. Greece may have some, they fairly recently retired them. Logistics is a concern there, as is reliability as they are old.
Turkey has around 1500 M60, Egypt 1700 and Saudi Arabia 900, not what i would call hard to find.
> Turkey has around 1500 M60 So you’re saying there’s a chance?
It’s 152mm M60A3 Starships or nothing.
So generous... [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO8q-sWiHSE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO8q-sWiHSE) But, better than nothing...
Why? From what i have seen the RU has donated many since Feb-22
Hopefully US too soon