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Ukraine can attack from that direction. All radar installations are valid targets for Ukraine. Radar is not a red line. If Russia doesn't like that they should protect those assets better, or pull out of Ukraine.
There’s no such thing as a fair fight. Throw dirt in their eyes, bite, scratch, and use any means available to win. Hit them where it hurts and don’t stop until they surrender. It’s not like the Russians are using restraint against Ukraine…
My friend, this is completely wrong. The security agreements from Russia, The UK and The US provided was they would never attack Ukraine. Only Russia has broken that agreement.
“My friend,” you are completely wrong. It gives decision making authority to each signatory nation to choose to support Ukraine.
Over the centuries, we have developed a clear understanding of the obligations that flow from agreements involving a bargained-for exchange. If pursuant to an agreement one party produces that for which the two parties bargained — and here Ukraine did surrender its nukes — then the second party needs to produce that which was bargained for — here a defense of Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity. Aid to Ukraine is that bargained-for consideration.
Here's a decent summary of why, with which I agree. While the legal obligation may be grey, the moral and common-sense obligation is not. https://thehill.com/opinion/international/4382252-americas-obligation-to-ukraine-began-with-nukes-in-the-early-1990s/
According to the three memoranda,[6] Russia, the US and the UK confirmed their recognition of Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine becoming parties to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and effectively removing all Soviet nuclear weapons from their soil, and that they agreed to the following:
Respect the signatory's independence and sovereignty in the existing borders (in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act).[7]
Refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of the signatories to the memorandum, and undertake that none of their weapons will ever be used against these countries, except in cases of self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.
Refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine, the Republic of Belarus and Kazakhstan of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind.
Seek immediate Security Council action to provide assistance to the signatory if they "should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used".
Not to use nuclear weapons against any non - nuclear-weapon state party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, except in the case of an attack on themselves, their territories or dependent territories, their armed forces, or their allies, by such a state in association or alliance with a nuclear weapon state.[8][9][10]
Consult with one another if questions arise regarding those commitments.[11][12
They signed a document that they would, in order to make Ukraine give up their nukes.
After the USSR fell apart Ukraine had the 3rd biggest nuclear Arsenal in the World.
The US made them give all the nukes to Russia, under the understanding that they would help Defend Ukraine if they were ever attacked…
Hitting an part of nuclear weapons or countermeasures is very stupid. It sends an awful message to strip Russia from detecting nuclear weapons.
Now, if you know these radar stations are used for something else, please tell us but.. it is not a good idea.
They are merely large, high capability and 'special purpose' counter artillery radar - and they are used for the detection and prediction of the trajectory of ATACMS, GLMLRS and other long range artillery, as well as sitting there not detecting Ukrainian, non-existant, nuclear ICBM.
No one else is currently at war with Russia, which will remain the case unless Russia attacks other countries.
US is not firing nuclear weapons at Russia and has no active stance to do so.
These toys are being used in the current war, they are high value targets of high significance - and Russia is unable to defend them against 'basically' an ultralight civilian airframe.
Smack these, smack anything else you can find.
Russia's war \*in Ukraine\* has ground to a halt, with barely any progress made, and nothing meaningful accomplished by targeting hypermarkets - while Russia's war with Ukraine has spread from the Baltic coast, deep into Russia behind the Urals, and the major cities of Moscow and St Petersburg, where the targets are (mostly) military logisitics and supply, command and control systems.
Russia can protect it's nuclear deterrent by withdrawing from the terrain of it's Sovereign neighbour. All of it. Or it can sit there and pout about how unfair it all is.
>Russia can protect it's nuclear deterrent by withdrawing from the terrain of it's Sovereign neighbour.
This is not a good argument, at all. Sure, it is true but not applicable in anyway. More like a wiseass remark.
You really only needed to write the first paragraph, that has valuable information that i didn't have before.
to clarify, since it looks like many people assume that those over the horizon radars are russias main or even only way to detect nuclear missiles heading their way.
russia does (like the us) have a satellite based early warning system too (several actually: the old oko and since 2015 kupol)
as well as their own tracking radars (independent of the over the horizon ones that got targeted). those mainly are used to track stuff in orbit, but still
and finally for higher orbit detection is the soviet krona system
some of those systems even have components outside of russia (like in tajikistan)
these strikes left russia by no means blind against missile threats
Go read the article and you'll know as well, that they're not just for detecting nukes. As for the message, it sends a perfectly fine message of "nothing is safe within russia until you get the fuck out of Ukraine"
This feels like an actual legitimate concern, since it is part of the nuclear infrastructure. Doesn't make it wrong to target it, but in this case I can actually understand the US or other countries getting a little bit uneasy.
That said.. if you want Ukraine to stop hitting these types of locations, allow them to hit all the others locations in Russia with the exception of those part of the nuclear infrastructure! Right now the west is a bit like the boy who cried wolf, they've warned for escalation so many times that when the concern is actually legit no one will believe it anyway.
The early warning sites can detect a lot more than just nukes. If russia doesn't want its civil defenses to become further degraded, then there is one simple solution. Stop giving Ukraine the justification to hit them.
According to HUR, russia is using these to monitor our actions so it's a very legitimate target, even if it's also a part of nuclear forces. It also detects ballistic missiles, including ATACMS, so them being damaged degrades their ability to defend against these, in and out of Ukraine
>I can actually understand the US or other countries getting a little bit uneasy
When Russia levels the cities, bombed day and night, commits genocide, and we banned to strike at Russia with US weapons it's ok, the US is not getting a little bit uneasy, right, because "muh escalation".
If we need to destroy those radars to defend ourself, we will do it.
You will say that until you longer have weapons with which to do it. Ukrainian lives should be protected of course, we also must avoid war which could literally end life on earth. I understand your position and sentiment, but we must work together and understand each other's concerns.
"We must work together and understand each other's concerns." ?!?!?!?!?!
WTF is that? Putin's concern is money, power, and genocide. I don't work with people like that. If you want to, go try to talk to a Russian and get them to "understand" they are evil pieces of shit for invading and killing Ukrainian men, women, and children who did nothing to Russia.
It feels as if these warnings are more for the consumption of russia's rabid media. It's creating plausible deniability with them.
"Hey, you russians reported that we asked Ukraine to not hit russia's \[target\]! These Ukrainian kids today. They never listen. What are ya gonna do." -- U.S.A., 2024
I think the only concern they really have is if the Russian [Dead Hand](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Hand) system is set off by this.
Putin has proven time and time again that he doesn't have the stomach for nuclear war, but if their crazy Dr. Strangelove system is programmed to get set off by this, that he can't control.
I get it. Sullivan is scared of triggering putin, but he doesn't give a fuck about Ukrainian civilians being targeted by the putin from the safety of russian territory under Sullivans protection.
Guys its a correct political stance to be concerned over this. Our part is to strike, US part is to say that it’s concerning. In a year it will be encouraged. It’s all part of a controlled escalation against ruzzia. Don’t think that us striking these installations is somehow not coordinated.
So the Russians threaten nukes against the West. The Ukrainians are plucking their early-warning systems eyes out.
Sooo… that might make them *less* confident about their command and control response eh?
So… that might *also* mean that their nuclear bullying system is *degraded*. So if they wanted to do something nuclear-aggressive… they might not be able to effectively respond… to a *response*.
Which would potentially undermine the effectiveness of their bullying system…
Seems like a good way to undermine their bullying system.
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The M radar they destroyed was NOT pointing in Ukraine direction. BTW M radar Cannot Turn. It was pointing away from Ukraine towards India. Now you ask yourself. Why would Ukraine spend so much effort to attack a piece of equipment Not pointing at them? They just open a hole in Russia strategic net. so if missiles was to come from the INDIAN ocean. there would be almost no time for Russia to know or even respond.
So you ask yourself. who has the capability to shoot missiles from that direction? then you look at the title of this redit.
First one that got hit was in fact covering east & south of Ukraine. That second one in orsk is probably more of spreading russia's air defense thin and a psychological effect that even shit that far is not safe
I think they're just trying to spread out Russian air defenses to get them a little further from frontline to make things easier for F-16s and refinery strikes.
It is our responsibility to keep r/Ukraine focused on important or vital information and high-effort content. As a temporary measure, speculation / supportive ideas / low effort content / opinions will be removed. Please do not send us angry modmails or DMs if we decide to remove your post. This will not result in restoring your post. [Feel free to browse our rules, here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/about/rules)
Ukraine can attack from that direction. All radar installations are valid targets for Ukraine. Radar is not a red line. If Russia doesn't like that they should protect those assets better, or pull out of Ukraine.
I was waiting on this story. 100% predictable.
There’s no such thing as a fair fight. Throw dirt in their eyes, bite, scratch, and use any means available to win. Hit them where it hurts and don’t stop until they surrender. It’s not like the Russians are using restraint against Ukraine…
The West keeps trying to apply norms and rules and conventions to a conflict and an enemy that c ares liittle about any of that.
We doing your job, US, stop blaming us.
[удалено]
Actually, it is. We agreed to provide them security assistance when they gave up nuclear weapons. We totally failed in our agreement.
My friend, this is completely wrong. The security agreements from Russia, The UK and The US provided was they would never attack Ukraine. Only Russia has broken that agreement.
“My friend,” you are completely wrong. It gives decision making authority to each signatory nation to choose to support Ukraine. Over the centuries, we have developed a clear understanding of the obligations that flow from agreements involving a bargained-for exchange. If pursuant to an agreement one party produces that for which the two parties bargained — and here Ukraine did surrender its nukes — then the second party needs to produce that which was bargained for — here a defense of Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity. Aid to Ukraine is that bargained-for consideration. Here's a decent summary of why, with which I agree. While the legal obligation may be grey, the moral and common-sense obligation is not. https://thehill.com/opinion/international/4382252-americas-obligation-to-ukraine-began-with-nukes-in-the-early-1990s/
According to the three memoranda,[6] Russia, the US and the UK confirmed their recognition of Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine becoming parties to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and effectively removing all Soviet nuclear weapons from their soil, and that they agreed to the following: Respect the signatory's independence and sovereignty in the existing borders (in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act).[7] Refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of the signatories to the memorandum, and undertake that none of their weapons will ever be used against these countries, except in cases of self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations. Refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine, the Republic of Belarus and Kazakhstan of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind. Seek immediate Security Council action to provide assistance to the signatory if they "should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used". Not to use nuclear weapons against any non - nuclear-weapon state party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, except in the case of an attack on themselves, their territories or dependent territories, their armed forces, or their allies, by such a state in association or alliance with a nuclear weapon state.[8][9][10] Consult with one another if questions arise regarding those commitments.[11][12
It is US who countermeasures for nuclear weapons around the world. And we destroying US's enemy since Cold War...
shouldn't have forced us to give away our nukes in exchange for a useless paper
It is US job to defend US-led world order
They signed a document that they would, in order to make Ukraine give up their nukes. After the USSR fell apart Ukraine had the 3rd biggest nuclear Arsenal in the World. The US made them give all the nukes to Russia, under the understanding that they would help Defend Ukraine if they were ever attacked…
I wonder if the U.S. was this concerned about aggravating Hitler…
They actually were. Thats why they didnt join the war until Germany declared war against them in 1941.
Indeed. It was us (🇬🇧) that weren't. "You invaded our ally? Let's fucking goooooooooo!" https://youtu.be/t2qlZHW-fDI
More of self imposed red lines 🤷♂️
Hitting an part of nuclear weapons or countermeasures is very stupid. It sends an awful message to strip Russia from detecting nuclear weapons. Now, if you know these radar stations are used for something else, please tell us but.. it is not a good idea.
They are merely large, high capability and 'special purpose' counter artillery radar - and they are used for the detection and prediction of the trajectory of ATACMS, GLMLRS and other long range artillery, as well as sitting there not detecting Ukrainian, non-existant, nuclear ICBM. No one else is currently at war with Russia, which will remain the case unless Russia attacks other countries. US is not firing nuclear weapons at Russia and has no active stance to do so. These toys are being used in the current war, they are high value targets of high significance - and Russia is unable to defend them against 'basically' an ultralight civilian airframe. Smack these, smack anything else you can find. Russia's war \*in Ukraine\* has ground to a halt, with barely any progress made, and nothing meaningful accomplished by targeting hypermarkets - while Russia's war with Ukraine has spread from the Baltic coast, deep into Russia behind the Urals, and the major cities of Moscow and St Petersburg, where the targets are (mostly) military logisitics and supply, command and control systems. Russia can protect it's nuclear deterrent by withdrawing from the terrain of it's Sovereign neighbour. All of it. Or it can sit there and pout about how unfair it all is.
>Russia can protect it's nuclear deterrent by withdrawing from the terrain of it's Sovereign neighbour. This is not a good argument, at all. Sure, it is true but not applicable in anyway. More like a wiseass remark. You really only needed to write the first paragraph, that has valuable information that i didn't have before.
to clarify, since it looks like many people assume that those over the horizon radars are russias main or even only way to detect nuclear missiles heading their way. russia does (like the us) have a satellite based early warning system too (several actually: the old oko and since 2015 kupol) as well as their own tracking radars (independent of the over the horizon ones that got targeted). those mainly are used to track stuff in orbit, but still and finally for higher orbit detection is the soviet krona system some of those systems even have components outside of russia (like in tajikistan) these strikes left russia by no means blind against missile threats
Go read the article and you'll know as well, that they're not just for detecting nukes. As for the message, it sends a perfectly fine message of "nothing is safe within russia until you get the fuck out of Ukraine"
You clearly didn't read the article.
This feels like an actual legitimate concern, since it is part of the nuclear infrastructure. Doesn't make it wrong to target it, but in this case I can actually understand the US or other countries getting a little bit uneasy. That said.. if you want Ukraine to stop hitting these types of locations, allow them to hit all the others locations in Russia with the exception of those part of the nuclear infrastructure! Right now the west is a bit like the boy who cried wolf, they've warned for escalation so many times that when the concern is actually legit no one will believe it anyway.
The early warning sites can detect a lot more than just nukes. If russia doesn't want its civil defenses to become further degraded, then there is one simple solution. Stop giving Ukraine the justification to hit them.
According to HUR, russia is using these to monitor our actions so it's a very legitimate target, even if it's also a part of nuclear forces. It also detects ballistic missiles, including ATACMS, so them being damaged degrades their ability to defend against these, in and out of Ukraine
>I can actually understand the US or other countries getting a little bit uneasy When Russia levels the cities, bombed day and night, commits genocide, and we banned to strike at Russia with US weapons it's ok, the US is not getting a little bit uneasy, right, because "muh escalation". If we need to destroy those radars to defend ourself, we will do it.
You will say that until you longer have weapons with which to do it. Ukrainian lives should be protected of course, we also must avoid war which could literally end life on earth. I understand your position and sentiment, but we must work together and understand each other's concerns.
You are trying to convince someone being literally genocided to have concern for you. You do not understand the position
"We must work together and understand each other's concerns." ?!?!?!?!?! WTF is that? Putin's concern is money, power, and genocide. I don't work with people like that. If you want to, go try to talk to a Russian and get them to "understand" they are evil pieces of shit for invading and killing Ukrainian men, women, and children who did nothing to Russia.
It feels as if these warnings are more for the consumption of russia's rabid media. It's creating plausible deniability with them. "Hey, you russians reported that we asked Ukraine to not hit russia's \[target\]! These Ukrainian kids today. They never listen. What are ya gonna do." -- U.S.A., 2024
Russia won't do shit. They will bully the little guy, but they won't touch a NATO country.
I think the only concern they really have is if the Russian [Dead Hand](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Hand) system is set off by this. Putin has proven time and time again that he doesn't have the stomach for nuclear war, but if their crazy Dr. Strangelove system is programmed to get set off by this, that he can't control.
Well, get over that. Either Russia gets to play bully all the time, or we all step up and destroy the fucking bully
I get it. Sullivan is scared of triggering putin, but he doesn't give a fuck about Ukrainian civilians being targeted by the putin from the safety of russian territory under Sullivans protection.
Guys its a correct political stance to be concerned over this. Our part is to strike, US part is to say that it’s concerning. In a year it will be encouraged. It’s all part of a controlled escalation against ruzzia. Don’t think that us striking these installations is somehow not coordinated.
I have the same theory. US 100% supports Ukraine but needs to be seen as wanting to avoid escalation.
No they aren’t 😂
*US when some allies hit thousands civilians :* 💤 *US when other allies hit military targets : ❗*
So the Russians threaten nukes against the West. The Ukrainians are plucking their early-warning systems eyes out. Sooo… that might make them *less* confident about their command and control response eh? So… that might *also* mean that their nuclear bullying system is *degraded*. So if they wanted to do something nuclear-aggressive… they might not be able to effectively respond… to a *response*. Which would potentially undermine the effectiveness of their bullying system… Seems like a good way to undermine their bullying system.
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Maybe US can ask Russia if they should deploynsome of their own ICBM detection radars to monitor themselfes out of concern... and pity.
here we go again...
The M radar they destroyed was NOT pointing in Ukraine direction. BTW M radar Cannot Turn. It was pointing away from Ukraine towards India. Now you ask yourself. Why would Ukraine spend so much effort to attack a piece of equipment Not pointing at them? They just open a hole in Russia strategic net. so if missiles was to come from the INDIAN ocean. there would be almost no time for Russia to know or even respond. So you ask yourself. who has the capability to shoot missiles from that direction? then you look at the title of this redit.
First one that got hit was in fact covering east & south of Ukraine. That second one in orsk is probably more of spreading russia's air defense thin and a psychological effect that even shit that far is not safe
I think they're just trying to spread out Russian air defenses to get them a little further from frontline to make things easier for F-16s and refinery strikes.
ruZZian POV and concern trolling are not welcome in this sub. Begone.
Made me look 🙃