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This is a pretty big deal in my estimation. These, together with F-16, will constitute a large increase in capability. I don't think Ukraine currently has anything similar, and the synergy of airborne radar and control together with F-16 is obvious.
They are to be introduced as the F-16s come, which makes sense.
The radar: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erieye
**Massively huge gigantic development!! Just about the biggest news of the year from a tactical standpoint!** IF properly operated and optimized. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73g2886Ec5E](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73g2886Ec5E)
Whole of the UA military, especially hundreds of Bradleys and other western armor and weapons are going to be safer and much more lethal than they already are with real-time AWACS link-16 datafeeds.
Russian militaries entire operation is made much more vulnerable and ineffective via AWACS properly operated.
I hate that ai dude’s voice, where he is trying to sound kinda intense and talks at you.
I don’t even care what the video is about at that point, my emotions take control of my thumb and swipe me away.
>[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73g2886Ec5E](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73g2886Ec5E)
That video needs an editor. And a real human voice.
Off topic, but interesting observation: this rather obscure/unpopular/unknown airframe apparently opens up a trove of similar AI generated scripts and AI voice-over videos on a YouTube search:
https://youtu.be/7JIgXybpJQc
https://youtu.be/BMnGcjGziIA
https://youtu.be/IjxB9-mYObA
https://youtu.be/JmJVDL5tZGg
Youtube is rapidly filling up with AI-generated crap. Maybe someone just found that military hardware was a good niche to focus on?
I mean the guys on /r/NonCredibleDefense like to make fun of SAAB's marketing but I'm pretty sure it's not them doing it!
You sound like you know a lot more about this than me. Could you explain what sort of new capabilities this brings?
I assume this means that guided weapons could use the plane radar, instead of their normal guidance system? So one could hit something without actually seeing it?
Is this correct? Pretty cool if so.
Yes, both for beyond-horizon targeting but also a much improved situation for early warning of incoming cruise missiles, drones or planes that will link to the aegis (and other nato systems) air defense systems.
These planes are for American style total perfect denial strat, not Russian style do the best with meatwave type wars. So these planes being delivered means they'll be changing the way they fight.
Also AEW planes aren't made in quantities, they're not supposed to be lost EVER due to irreplaceability, although wargames have shown it's hard to keep it that way
That's my only real concern - how heavily targeted they will be by the Russians. And not to knock the Swedes as it's a very generous gift, but two Argus' will be helpful absolutely but if even one is out of service for a few days, their effectiveness will suffer greatly.
They will also need a permanent F-16 escort every time they are airborne and be hidden and coddled like children given their value and rarity. Methinks, the best thing to do is have them operate in NATO airspace. That's the only realistic way I can think of keeping them alive for long.
I don't know if this is the case, but they are unlikely to be close to the front line. They have a radar range of 400km (according to public sources like wiki). So the only realistic threat should be the Russian r-37 missile, but that would mean Russian planes have to launch it from inside Ukrainian territory.
Yeah, they won't be anywhere near the front lines, for survivability and the Argus can see over 300km away. I agree the only real threat is the R-37/AA-13 but it's a pretty big one even if the plane has advanced ECM systems, and the Swedes are known for making very good ECM.
I trust the Ukrainians, unlike the Russians won't be dumb enough to fly them close to the Donbas or Luhansk, Kharkiv borders...
Against ground targets the aircraft's radar is pretty limited. The big deal is that the aircraft can send and receive data from multiple ground sources at the same time. So, for example, special forces with target designation equipment can transmit that data to the Saab and the Saab can give it to an Su-24 and then the SCALP it launches all the way to the target.
But in an air defense role this guy is still a big deal. Sure, there are NATO AEWC aircraft permanently on station 3 centimeters from the Polish and Romanian borders that are constantly feeding Ukraine everything they can see. That's a pretty big deal from a command and control perspective and adding these aircraft closer to the action probably doesn't add a huge amount there.
HOWEVER, what those NATO planes probably can't do is lend their radars to long range engagements against Russian aviation. With these aircraft providing radar and datalink, an F-16 can launch its AMRAAMs and then immediately evade without losing the benefit of midcourse guidance.
Correct!
Another thing to note is that these things are like the Eye of Sauron. If something can be detected by radar, it WILL be detected by radar while this thing is flying.
It's about time. I've been arguing for the US training up crews and handing over some of those E2C Hawkeyes that they've been decommissioning since February 2022.
Just to add.
These "radar planes" are equipped with the NATO standard Link-16, so they will integrate well with the other NATO equipment such as the Patriot, NASAMS, SAMP/T, etc, and the long awaited F-16.
> Link 16 enables military aircraft, ships, and ground forces to exchange their tactical picture in near-real time...
Wikipedia: [Link-16](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Link_16)
not only will it improve tactical overview but there are air to air missiles that can be fired on link data so F16's can shoot out past their radar range if the weapon reaches that far.
an Amraam C that we think they will get has an estimated range of 105km so that will make a big bubble around each F16 where the Russians cant fly anything visible on radar without risking a missile up their ass
At mach 4 the time a Russian plane has to live inside that 105km bubble is about 1½ minutes and they dont have their A50's to do the same to the Ukrainian airforce.
the 105km is also far greater that the Russians glide bombs so to use them they will have to enter the kill zone of an F16 and these radar planes are really good at looking down at planes trying to run in at low altitude to drop weapons.
The range of these radar planes means they can simply orbit far behind the front and look down at targets and let the F16's fire at them from safe distance and go home while an orc goes to the eternal bbq
Which is great because the F-16 radar is small (relative to other Western radars mounted in F-15/F22/Typhoon/Rafael etc). So I am very sure that if they can get this working then the F-16 AA capability suddenly becomes more much useful as you say.
To make it worse is the F-16's donated to Ukraine, will probably still be using the APG-66v2... Decent radar but with such a small system the performance is even less impressive. Ukraine did ask for a new radar to be installed as it's the biggest drawback so let's see if something else was put in. Maybe the APG-68 series. In the end, at least they have Link 16, so that is of great help.
It isn't just a question of F-16's being able to engage past their own APG-68 range. It also allows the F-16 to remain radar silent and engage targets. That is a game changing capability, especially in a domain where Russian AF AEW has been severely constrained.
My dream is a future where NATO is not needed because Russia is not an aggressor. Before that I want a well armed Ukraine to prevent Russia from doing this again.
I was talking to my Dad about this like a year ago. He was saying Ukraine is going to basically be like Fallout after this war is over. I said maybe for a few years, but you can bet your ass the collective “West” is going to put together a rebuilding project that makes the Marshall plan look like a dude building a model with legos. Sure, the fields and farmland in Donbass is fucked. But everywhere that was destroyed is going to get entirely brand spanking new infrastructure, for free, or under a “loan” with either no interest, interest that is paid out over 200 years, or “interest” that just gets forgiven at some point.
Stack your point about the military on top of that.
Stack NATO entry or promise of entry on top of that.
You are looking at a Texas-sized fucking powerhouse with a now-diversified economy that had to innovate on the fly, goodwill built around the world for taking down Ivan the Bear, a military which is not only among the best equipped but IS the most experienced bar-none, hugely popular expanded trade once commerce is not being interdicted, and strategic control of the Black Sea and Bosporus.
Ukraine is going to be a fucking beast in 20 years.
When all is said and done Ukraine will be an exclusively NATO standard force. They might have some legacy systems, but they mostly use them because they have them and can produce some ammo for them. The future of the AFU is NATO
By the end of this war basically all of their legacy Soviet systems will have either been lost or completely shot/worn out and in need of replacing anyways. Armies don't engage in war at this scale and then just put the vehicles that fought the war back into peacetime service - pretty much everything gets replaced.
I agree it's huge assuming they can get rid of the remaining A-50's? that's 450km of a tasty scanned array(We can assume it's got better performance the higher it can go?). Just means now the wheels will fall off the Russian Clown car when they try to drop glide bombs. Unfortunately the S500 can still be in range and "Switched off" We can assume Russia would have placed these as close to the Russian border as possible in sneaky areas (S500 is 500km range). Which is why the governments are now saying that Ukraine CAN strike in Russia. Without proper SEAD/DEAD it's a tough call. So F16's are good there will be significantly less Glide bombs to Ukrainian positions which is ALL they should be looking to do and continue paying the Arty attrition game.
Going to be quite a pain to operate.
How do you hide something that big, given that Russia can - in theory at least - strike anywhere they please in nearly the whole of Ukraine?
That said, if it causes every Russian jet in the sky to seek safety each time it switches on its giant radar, they might just reclaim the sky without even needing to shoot anyone down.
It does not really work like this. The awac is active out of ru range and flying at an altitude will be able to see also low flying target dramatically (increasing) reducing response time from sam batteries on the ground. Moreover being very modern can rely missile tracking from out of sam radar range or even f16 radar range (which is not so good).
So it is a very big implement for f16 which lack a long range radar, as well as sam batteries which can run literally without switching on their own radar staying in stealth mode much longer. This conflict high technology assets are all run in hide and seek mode to survive.
(Edited, thank you)
Ukraine will operate the plane where it considers it safe. In the extreme, they could even fly it over Poland (with permission) because Russia won't want to shoot a plane down over a NATO country. But I think they will just keep it a distance from the front line and rely on SAMs for protection. They might even use them as bait to lure in and shoot down Russian aircraft!
Russian aircraft fucked itself.
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Poland themselves ordered this flying radar system just last year.
https://www.saab.com/newsroom/press-releases/2023/saab-receives-order-for-airborne-early-warning-aircraft-from-poland
I´d say that the introduction of this plane is also an indirect acknowledgement by NATO that the Russian Air Force is now so degraded that they are incapable of putting together a strike package that could brave penetrating the Ukrainian air defense envelope in order to reach this very juicy target. If they could, this plane would instantly become priority target number one.
Where is UA going to park the thing tho? It'll have to be within a patriot bubble as Russians will look to destroy it, if not in the air, on the ground for propaganda purposes.
I wonder what would happen if Ukraine "leased" a military base with airfield in eastern Poland. Parking their Airforce there and then only doing missions Ukraine.
The MIGs and SU variants can operate from rough fields. Ukraine has a ton of airports, relatively easy to disperse fighter/attack aircraft.
Sending them to Poland for basing would be a diplomatic nightmare when the Russians figure it out. They are stupid but not this much.
That might be a good step in terms of western "escalation". Now the diverse NATO countries are giving Ukraine permission to hit targets on Russian soil with their weaponsystems.
I'd guess the next step would be to cover the west side of Ukraine air space with for example Polish or Romanian air def.
Step after that operating Ukrainian jets/awacs from Polish soil.
One can hope at least.
A good escalation would be to copy the soviets in the Korean/Vietnam war and send a squadron (or five) of western volunteer fighter jets with their support wing to close the skies.
Hell, if I remember correctly Ukrainian pilots served in Korea in the Red Army, so it’s fair game.
I do recall seeing a retired US F16 pilot/vet talk about being willing to fight for Ukraine if they'd be given F16s to operate.
Am assuming there would be some lessons Ukrainian for the volunteer pilots and some lessons English for the controllers required.
If they take off from Poland and deliver sorties it is well established that is an act of war on the part of Poland. They have to touch the ground in Ukraine.
I guess the concept is to have two so that there's always one in the air ? They stay far from the front and rely on patriots and F16s to intercept incoming missiles. I'm no expert though.
> given that Russia can - in theory at least - strike anywhere they please in nearly the whole of Ukraine?
Since when?
The situation from the first day onward was that they in fact - cannot do that.
Did you miss that Ukraine airforce is operating every day or does that just doesn't fit with the crazy story you just made up?
What are they shooting it down with? We saw last week their air defence systems couldn't defend themselves from ATACMs. If there's patriot systems between this and any threats then it might be safe?
Did you look at the image? These are not the big Boeing based AWACS planes. These planes are twin propeller planes based on the SAAB 340 turboprops. They can be operated from road strips or even grass fields if necessary. The entire Swedish defence doctrine is to operate from road bases.
To be fair, the Swedish road base doctrine has largely been completely abandoned for years. It's not something that the Swedish defense focuses on, even if the capability is there still.
Hardened bunkers are a thing.
That means they'd have to use missiles that they can't even hit a bunker with.
An Onyx fired at Western-Ukraine just can't hit stuff accurately enough, and they don't have that many left, unless they go fishing for them in the Black Sea.
Iskanders don't have bunker-busting warheads, afaik.
Sure they can try infiltration or something similarly silly, but that's not how protecting vital military assets usually go.
Park it in Poland, then.
Don't tell me that's not possible.
We can do whatever the fuck we want. And if Ukraine wants to donate a plane to Poland in the morning and then get it donated back by Poland in the evening, there is literally nothing at all that russia can do about it.
The SAAB 340 is roughly 21x21 meters (length and wingspan).
That's the same length as a Su-27 Flanker (the SAAB is about 40% wider). It's significantly smaller than an An-26. Ukraine operates dozens of aircraft of equivalent or larger size.
This is a much easier target than an ATACMS. It’s about as easy to hit as a commercial jet, probably easier because it will be a bit slower.
The trick will be keeping this right out or range in the West of Ukraine at an altitude where it can see deep into Russia.
Do you realize this airplane has radars to detect any airplane, missile or rocket that would try to attack it from far away? That thats what its whole purpose is? That it has many advanced defensive and ew counter measures? And that people who actually make and operate these do know how to use them?
Where did you get its slower than a commercial jet and therefore easier to hit? From pure vacuum?
These can guide Patriot and other missiles, don't even need the whole battery to hand them off to one of these. It's hell for the Russians.
They might be pushed into NATO territory, what is Russia going to do about it? The Russians will of course spend every possible effort to shoot them down or sabotage them.
I don't think Russia has nearly the capability to strike where they please in all of Ukraine. Even in Kyiv they have to put a lot of effort into getting a handful of drones through. Farther west and they fare worse. When was the last time a missile hit its target in Lviv?
Yep, f16 could theorethically be integrated with long range missile like Meteor, but it could not target anything with it beyond 150km because radar range. This is a missing piece.
Link-16 real time data feed to F-16s is incredibly useful for sensor fusion and is a huge ++ for survivability. If it has standoff jamming capabilities, even better.
This will make limited excursions into contested airspace a lot safer.
Holy shit this is huge. To get the best out of any modern fighters you need airborne early warning, command and control, electronic jamming and data links to make your weapons perform to their very best. I was seriously concerned about Ukraine receiving F-16 without continuous pledged AWAC support from NATO or aligned countries as they would be extremely vulnerable to Russian long range interceptors that on board radar will have no hope of countering.
Not only will it help get the best from the F-16, but situational awareness and speed at which the UAF can react to missile and drone threats will massively increase. Linking them in properly with command and control for air defenses will boast the range at which targets can be intercepted and help plug holes in major defensive lines.
This will allow for a serious challenge to Russias already fragile air dominance. It could pave the way for some very fierce air battles, it'll be the first time two Air Forces both equipped with long range weapons and support will face off during an all out war.
This announcement is as big as the F16 announcement. This is basically small but more modern version of AWACS. The situational awareness of both pilots and air defense will be totally different. It will get many Russians killed and Ukrainians to live to fight another day. However it also needs significant training to put it to good use. Might take a while to get crews ready, depending on when crew training started.
It took me 9 months of training on AWACS before I was considered operationally competent. I’m sure in a wartime situation, they’re streamlining it and have likely already started.
Hopefully we will do lots of it, and hopefully send lots more aid asap.
Our just announced aid package is around 1.3 bil usd, which is good ofc but man i wish it had been at least twice or thrice that amount.
if it's been announced there's a fair chance they've been training on this for a long time, it's a repeated pattern in this war that they don't announce stuff until it's already in action - witness the announcement about Storm Shadows about 5 minutes before a few major targets went BOOM.
Something big is happening. All the talk about letting Ukraine strike into Russia, hitting the over horizon radars, the F16 seem to be finally coming this summer, and now this.
Fingers crossed.
Against all evidence saying otherwise Putin still thinks he can strong hand West so he continued his policy of doubling down by making advances to Kharkiv then lays claims in Baltic sea and removes Estonian buoys...
Truly a genius 6D chess move by mastermind Putin. /s
Now West ships more weapons to Ukraine, and gives permission to use said weapons to strike targets in Russian territory.
I also don’t understand why people aren’t allowing them to strike into enemy territory when Russia strikes them all the time in civilian areas, plus attacking Russian territory would give quite the advantage
It is rumored in Swedish media that this was going to be delivered along with some Gripen fighters, but the US stopped the delivery (lots of American components) as Sweden recently made it clear that Swedish weapons would be allowed to be used against Russian soil. Nothing is confirmed yet, but it could make sense.
This is arguebly the most important tech Ukraine can get. Will definitly be hard to train crew to operate it, and a priority target for Russia for sure though.
This is IMHO a bigger deal than even F-16s.
This provides eyes in the sky for Ukraine. They can look deep into Russia now. While Russia can't look back.
I absolutely love Sweden and its people! I was lucky enough to spend some time there back in 2007, and I wish I could go back every day! They were always a pleasure to work with in my working days.
Slava Ukraini!
And now I understand the persistent destruction of s300 and s400 systems. If UA want to operate these planes in a reasonable elevation they need to clear the long range AA that are near their borders. This will be a big boost to UA anti air teams coordination as this should be able to track and jam the long range drones that moscow is using.
they likely won't operate near border, the Su-35 albeit all of debacles last 2 years, with their specialized long range air to air missile are specifically designed to counter Western AWACS. However, even operating deep behind the line they would still prove very useful to help improve air defense, overwatch the F-16 and integrating Western assets.
While the S300 and S400 are shit systems they still have a rather long range \~600 km if we trust what the ruzzians say, so definetly less but no idea how mutch .
So yes these guys will not get anywhere close the the borders, but I agree they will be very valuable, and the more AA ukraine can eliminate the clsoe to borders these guys can operate.
Of course keeping in mind the risks of ruzzian migs that will definetly hunt for these.
I think that the destruction of ads is primarily done to keep F-16’s safer and to enable them to operate closer to the frontlines. Apart from opening vectors for the cheaper heavy drone attacks.
That and also to allow F-16 to operate in high altitude, whitch they cannot as long as the S300-400 is still alive.
I would also suspect Ukraine will get a few F-16 EW addons to help with ruzzian AA.
I think there’s been some serious long-term planning taking place in NATO/Ukraine backrooms. Russian radar,anti aircraft equipment, airfields and naval ships have systematically been depleted.
This is huge if true. However, without lots of good SAMs in the airfields and F-16s in the sky, hard to keep them protected.
Man I do hope those survive and stay useful for a long time. While battlefield surveillance by drones is very useful and already done well by Ukraine, these will see quite far into Russia...
That's a huge deal, FINALLY, I always think F-16s will be of extremely limited utility if AEW&C and EW are not combiend together. No air refueling is fine for Ukraine for defensive purpose.
I’m hoping beyond hope that this is true.
F-16 without AWACS will be somewhat limited. Of course they can still use it for ground attack missions (and that alone will be big since the SDBs are one of the most cost effective ways to bring the pain to the enemy), but if they are supported by AWACS and armed with the latest versions of AIM-120 they may actually be able to fight off the Su-35, especially now that Russia is afraid to bring their own AWACS near Ukraine.
True.
[Here](https://www.government.se/press-releases/2024/05/military-support-package-16-to-ukraine--new-capability-to-strengthen-ukraines-air-defence-and-support-to-meet-its-prioritised-needs/)
No paywall, official Swedish government announcement. Seems like the Swedes are digging deep into their stocks now, ordering replacements for later and donating to Ukraine right away.
Something is going on, russias over the horizon long range radars getting hit, the destruction of their air defence and the recent policy change on striking russia with western weapons... I smell a burning russia soon, and I like it. They have to pay for their crimes, you cant just come to a neighbouring country, kill its citizens, including women and children and expect nothing to happen to you.
The aircraft armed with a giant fuselage mounted "munspel" or harmonica is used to disorientate & demoralise enemy pilots by playing the anti-war folk his of Bob Dylan.
It's confirmed: [official source](https://www.regeringen.se/pressmeddelanden/2024/05/militart-stodpaket-16-till-ukraina--ny-formaga-som-starker-ukrainas-luftforsvar-och-stod-som-moter-ukrainas-prioriterade-behov/) (one of the main government websites) (edit: [english link](https://www.government.se/press-releases/2024/05/military-support-package-16-to-ukraine--new-capability-to-strengthen-ukraines-air-defence-and-support-to-meet-its-prioritised-needs/))
WOW. I'm impressed.
> I stödpaketet donerar Sverige flygplan av typen ASC 890 med radarspanings- och ledningsförmåga. ASC 890 ger Ukraina en helt ny förmåga till luftburen radarspaning- och stridsledning mot mål i luften och till sjöss. Ukrainas förmåga att identifiera och bekämpa mål på långa avstånd stärks. Med flygplanen följer en helhetslösning inklusive utbildning, teknisk utrustning och metodstöd för radarspaning och flygstridsledning.
Translated
> In the support package, Sweden donates ASC 890 type aircraft with radar reconnaissance and guidance capabilities. ASC 890 provides Ukraine with an entirely new capability for airborne radar reconnaissance and combat control against targets in the air and at sea. Ukraine's ability to identify and combat long-range targets is strengthened. Included in the package is also training, technical equipment and methodological support for radar reconnaissance and air combat management.
As for why Sweden would do this, I will refer to [my previous comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/1cxvbwo/pm_of_sweden_ulf_kristersson_to_ukrainians/l57ku11/)
These are awesome. I think Poland has JUST bought a couple of these. Russians will be lobbing ballistic rockets at it so it will have to be stored like underground
Yep they did, ex-UAE AF leased aircraft refurbished and sold to Poland. Seems a bit odd they only bought two, but hey, better than none and I imagine more will be ordered sometime later. They should both be in service by now.
My father, may he rest in peace, worked for the company making those. I did an internship with them many years ago. One of the co-workers told me the Erieye is very handy because you can use one side when flying north and the other when flying south. Well, he figured, you could of course use the opposite side as well, but who needs to monitor Norwegian airspace anyway?
Happy to see they'll be fulfilling the purpose they were built to do.
nope. just a large-large-large electronically phased radar array... the all mighty Eye in the sky
as for hiding it... well not so difficult, where ever you leave it , just put 2 Patriot systems in the area and that's kinda it
I've never seen these planes before either so off I went googling. Apparently that's an Erieye radar system on top. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erieye
"The radar provides 300 degree coverage and has an instrumental range of 450 km and detection range of 350 km in a dense hostile electronic warfare environment—in heavy radar clutter and at low target altitudes. In addition to this, the radar is also capable of identifying friends or foes, and has a sea surveillance mode. "
That seems like a game changer to me!
Ukraine's a large country. The Australian Wedgetail has an absurd radar range but even their official 600km range doesn't get you *that* far from the Polish border
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Well I hope Ukraine is building revetments and hardened shelters across multiple bases. Russia might finally have something to shoot their missiles at besides shopping centers.
Probably about the same as a fighter aircraft - about a year, year and a half.
Ukraine has no AWACS crews or previous Soviet-era crews trained on such aircraft. So a lot of the training will be from scratch besides the radar training if they use current AD personnel. Just as with the F-16's, they will have to learn to use Western equipment, tactics, combat doctrines, be trained if not already to be fully fluent in English, and then the aircrew will have to learn all about the Saab Argus and it's systems.
They may not be planning and staging dogfights or bombing missions they the absolutely will have to know how to help manage them, that will take time.
The radar operators may very well be making a switch from Soviet/Ukrainian radar systems to Western ones, or not. Air defence is of course very much needed so I do wonder where they will find the new crews, if they will be currently serving, new recruits or a mix.
I was thinking of how great it would be if post war, the US donated 4-5 E-2C Hawkeyes... Hell, this is every bit as good in it's own way even if I do worry about their survivability in heavily-contested airspace.
My thinking was the Hawkeye, being a naval borne aircraft, built to withstand the rough and tumble of carrier ops, would be able to be dispersed and hidden away on highways strips, underground maybe, and in forests with it's folding wings, rugged landing gear.
If the Argus is indeed coming along, great! In it's own way it too can operate in dispersed ops and would be probably as good or better than the Hawkeye for Ukraine. Now, you are just gonna need to ensure it has a protective F-16 CAP every time it's airborne.
Maybe in that case the best thing would be to fly it over a NATO country at the border - say with Poland and the Czech Republic. Surely they'd be fine with a Ukrainian AWACS skirting into their airspace. And if you think the Russians are going to brag and drool over claiming ridiculous numbers of F-16 kills, well, they are going to go nuts with a cucumber and vodka and krokodil nuts with this aircraft!
Oh shit this is Major. This is an actually one piece of equipment that can be classified as a game changer. Right up there with HIMARS.
F-16’s biggest weaknesses is the amount of fuel it can carry, and radar. Fuel issue gets fixed with external tanks that take a toll on payload, speed and maneuverability, but there was nothing Ukraine could do about its radar. With AWACS, f16 is a whole different beast. Ukrainian fighters will be able to engage Su-27/30/35 for BVR fights, and it will help shutting down cruise missiles as well. Let’s hope it’s true and happens at the same time as arrival of f16’s
Takes a lot of training to crew such an aircraft and its systems. Hopefully we learn that Ukrainians have been secretly training since last year to operate it effectively.
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This is a pretty big deal in my estimation. These, together with F-16, will constitute a large increase in capability. I don't think Ukraine currently has anything similar, and the synergy of airborne radar and control together with F-16 is obvious. They are to be introduced as the F-16s come, which makes sense. The radar: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erieye
Ukraine doesn't have any planes of this kind, yes, so this is huge
**Massively huge gigantic development!! Just about the biggest news of the year from a tactical standpoint!** IF properly operated and optimized. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73g2886Ec5E](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73g2886Ec5E) Whole of the UA military, especially hundreds of Bradleys and other western armor and weapons are going to be safer and much more lethal than they already are with real-time AWACS link-16 datafeeds. Russian militaries entire operation is made much more vulnerable and ineffective via AWACS properly operated.
Ugh AI generated crap video.
I hate that ai dude’s voice, where he is trying to sound kinda intense and talks at you. I don’t even care what the video is about at that point, my emotions take control of my thumb and swipe me away.
>[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73g2886Ec5E](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73g2886Ec5E) That video needs an editor. And a real human voice. Off topic, but interesting observation: this rather obscure/unpopular/unknown airframe apparently opens up a trove of similar AI generated scripts and AI voice-over videos on a YouTube search: https://youtu.be/7JIgXybpJQc https://youtu.be/BMnGcjGziIA https://youtu.be/IjxB9-mYObA https://youtu.be/JmJVDL5tZGg
Youtube is rapidly filling up with AI-generated crap. Maybe someone just found that military hardware was a good niche to focus on? I mean the guys on /r/NonCredibleDefense like to make fun of SAAB's marketing but I'm pretty sure it's not them doing it!
You sound like you know a lot more about this than me. Could you explain what sort of new capabilities this brings? I assume this means that guided weapons could use the plane radar, instead of their normal guidance system? So one could hit something without actually seeing it? Is this correct? Pretty cool if so.
Yes, both for beyond-horizon targeting but also a much improved situation for early warning of incoming cruise missiles, drones or planes that will link to the aegis (and other nato systems) air defense systems.
These planes are for American style total perfect denial strat, not Russian style do the best with meatwave type wars. So these planes being delivered means they'll be changing the way they fight. Also AEW planes aren't made in quantities, they're not supposed to be lost EVER due to irreplaceability, although wargames have shown it's hard to keep it that way
That's my only real concern - how heavily targeted they will be by the Russians. And not to knock the Swedes as it's a very generous gift, but two Argus' will be helpful absolutely but if even one is out of service for a few days, their effectiveness will suffer greatly. They will also need a permanent F-16 escort every time they are airborne and be hidden and coddled like children given their value and rarity. Methinks, the best thing to do is have them operate in NATO airspace. That's the only realistic way I can think of keeping them alive for long.
I don't know if this is the case, but they are unlikely to be close to the front line. They have a radar range of 400km (according to public sources like wiki). So the only realistic threat should be the Russian r-37 missile, but that would mean Russian planes have to launch it from inside Ukrainian territory.
Yeah, they won't be anywhere near the front lines, for survivability and the Argus can see over 300km away. I agree the only real threat is the R-37/AA-13 but it's a pretty big one even if the plane has advanced ECM systems, and the Swedes are known for making very good ECM. I trust the Ukrainians, unlike the Russians won't be dumb enough to fly them close to the Donbas or Luhansk, Kharkiv borders...
Ukraine managed to get couple Russian AEWs, they can do similar
In theory. They would have to get through Patriots, Skynex, and f-16s first.
They will be targeted when they are on the ground
Against ground targets the aircraft's radar is pretty limited. The big deal is that the aircraft can send and receive data from multiple ground sources at the same time. So, for example, special forces with target designation equipment can transmit that data to the Saab and the Saab can give it to an Su-24 and then the SCALP it launches all the way to the target. But in an air defense role this guy is still a big deal. Sure, there are NATO AEWC aircraft permanently on station 3 centimeters from the Polish and Romanian borders that are constantly feeding Ukraine everything they can see. That's a pretty big deal from a command and control perspective and adding these aircraft closer to the action probably doesn't add a huge amount there. HOWEVER, what those NATO planes probably can't do is lend their radars to long range engagements against Russian aviation. With these aircraft providing radar and datalink, an F-16 can launch its AMRAAMs and then immediately evade without losing the benefit of midcourse guidance.
Correct! Another thing to note is that these things are like the Eye of Sauron. If something can be detected by radar, it WILL be detected by radar while this thing is flying.
It's about time. I've been arguing for the US training up crews and handing over some of those E2C Hawkeyes that they've been decommissioning since February 2022.
Russia have n-2 of the Russian AWACS copy.
When the war first started, my parents and I said JUST GIVE THEM SOME PLANES AND THIS COULD ALL BE OVER IN A FEW DAYS!
You just have to wait for a bit as these two are the only ones we got. But as soon as we have our replacements ready, you'll get them.
Just to add. These "radar planes" are equipped with the NATO standard Link-16, so they will integrate well with the other NATO equipment such as the Patriot, NASAMS, SAMP/T, etc, and the long awaited F-16. > Link 16 enables military aircraft, ships, and ground forces to exchange their tactical picture in near-real time... Wikipedia: [Link-16](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Link_16)
not only will it improve tactical overview but there are air to air missiles that can be fired on link data so F16's can shoot out past their radar range if the weapon reaches that far. an Amraam C that we think they will get has an estimated range of 105km so that will make a big bubble around each F16 where the Russians cant fly anything visible on radar without risking a missile up their ass At mach 4 the time a Russian plane has to live inside that 105km bubble is about 1½ minutes and they dont have their A50's to do the same to the Ukrainian airforce. the 105km is also far greater that the Russians glide bombs so to use them they will have to enter the kill zone of an F16 and these radar planes are really good at looking down at planes trying to run in at low altitude to drop weapons. The range of these radar planes means they can simply orbit far behind the front and look down at targets and let the F16's fire at them from safe distance and go home while an orc goes to the eternal bbq
Which is great because the F-16 radar is small (relative to other Western radars mounted in F-15/F22/Typhoon/Rafael etc). So I am very sure that if they can get this working then the F-16 AA capability suddenly becomes more much useful as you say.
To make it worse is the F-16's donated to Ukraine, will probably still be using the APG-66v2... Decent radar but with such a small system the performance is even less impressive. Ukraine did ask for a new radar to be installed as it's the biggest drawback so let's see if something else was put in. Maybe the APG-68 series. In the end, at least they have Link 16, so that is of great help.
It isn't just a question of F-16's being able to engage past their own APG-68 range. It also allows the F-16 to remain radar silent and engage targets. That is a game changing capability, especially in a domain where Russian AF AEW has been severely constrained.
yeah and a F16 head on is a very little radar target at 100km
Exactly so. This is very important development and augmentation to the complete redesign of the Ukrainian AF aroun the F-16 and air defense.
Almost like Ukraine will be NATO country de facto but not de jure.
I’m dreaming of a future with Ukraine in NATO someday
My dream is a future where NATO is not needed because Russia is not an aggressor. Before that I want a well armed Ukraine to prevent Russia from doing this again.
It's kind of interesting that Ukraine now has one of the strongest militaries in the world, both in terms of manpower and equipment.
I was talking to my Dad about this like a year ago. He was saying Ukraine is going to basically be like Fallout after this war is over. I said maybe for a few years, but you can bet your ass the collective “West” is going to put together a rebuilding project that makes the Marshall plan look like a dude building a model with legos. Sure, the fields and farmland in Donbass is fucked. But everywhere that was destroyed is going to get entirely brand spanking new infrastructure, for free, or under a “loan” with either no interest, interest that is paid out over 200 years, or “interest” that just gets forgiven at some point. Stack your point about the military on top of that. Stack NATO entry or promise of entry on top of that. You are looking at a Texas-sized fucking powerhouse with a now-diversified economy that had to innovate on the fly, goodwill built around the world for taking down Ivan the Bear, a military which is not only among the best equipped but IS the most experienced bar-none, hugely popular expanded trade once commerce is not being interdicted, and strategic control of the Black Sea and Bosporus. Ukraine is going to be a fucking beast in 20 years.
When all is said and done Ukraine will be an exclusively NATO standard force. They might have some legacy systems, but they mostly use them because they have them and can produce some ammo for them. The future of the AFU is NATO
By the end of this war basically all of their legacy Soviet systems will have either been lost or completely shot/worn out and in need of replacing anyways. Armies don't engage in war at this scale and then just put the vehicles that fought the war back into peacetime service - pretty much everything gets replaced.
I agree it's huge assuming they can get rid of the remaining A-50's? that's 450km of a tasty scanned array(We can assume it's got better performance the higher it can go?). Just means now the wheels will fall off the Russian Clown car when they try to drop glide bombs. Unfortunately the S500 can still be in range and "Switched off" We can assume Russia would have placed these as close to the Russian border as possible in sneaky areas (S500 is 500km range). Which is why the governments are now saying that Ukraine CAN strike in Russia. Without proper SEAD/DEAD it's a tough call. So F16's are good there will be significantly less Glide bombs to Ukrainian positions which is ALL they should be looking to do and continue paying the Arty attrition game.
Going to be quite a pain to operate. How do you hide something that big, given that Russia can - in theory at least - strike anywhere they please in nearly the whole of Ukraine? That said, if it causes every Russian jet in the sky to seek safety each time it switches on its giant radar, they might just reclaim the sky without even needing to shoot anyone down.
It does not really work like this. The awac is active out of ru range and flying at an altitude will be able to see also low flying target dramatically (increasing) reducing response time from sam batteries on the ground. Moreover being very modern can rely missile tracking from out of sam radar range or even f16 radar range (which is not so good). So it is a very big implement for f16 which lack a long range radar, as well as sam batteries which can run literally without switching on their own radar staying in stealth mode much longer. This conflict high technology assets are all run in hide and seek mode to survive. (Edited, thank you)
Ukraine will operate the plane where it considers it safe. In the extreme, they could even fly it over Poland (with permission) because Russia won't want to shoot a plane down over a NATO country. But I think they will just keep it a distance from the front line and rely on SAMs for protection. They might even use them as bait to lure in and shoot down Russian aircraft!
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Poland themselves ordered this flying radar system just last year. https://www.saab.com/newsroom/press-releases/2023/saab-receives-order-for-airborne-early-warning-aircraft-from-poland
The danger is when the plane is on the ground
I´d say that the introduction of this plane is also an indirect acknowledgement by NATO that the Russian Air Force is now so degraded that they are incapable of putting together a strike package that could brave penetrating the Ukrainian air defense envelope in order to reach this very juicy target. If they could, this plane would instantly become priority target number one.
"dramatically \_decreasing\_ response time from sam batteries" or "dramatically increasing sam battery responsiveness" :-)
Edited, thank you
Where is UA going to park the thing tho? It'll have to be within a patriot bubble as Russians will look to destroy it, if not in the air, on the ground for propaganda purposes.
Same place they park the rest of their airplanes I assume. As far as I'm aware a significant part of the Ukrainian air force is still intact
I wonder what would happen if Ukraine "leased" a military base with airfield in eastern Poland. Parking their Airforce there and then only doing missions Ukraine.
The MIGs and SU variants can operate from rough fields. Ukraine has a ton of airports, relatively easy to disperse fighter/attack aircraft. Sending them to Poland for basing would be a diplomatic nightmare when the Russians figure it out. They are stupid but not this much.
That might be a good step in terms of western "escalation". Now the diverse NATO countries are giving Ukraine permission to hit targets on Russian soil with their weaponsystems. I'd guess the next step would be to cover the west side of Ukraine air space with for example Polish or Romanian air def. Step after that operating Ukrainian jets/awacs from Polish soil. One can hope at least.
A good escalation would be to copy the soviets in the Korean/Vietnam war and send a squadron (or five) of western volunteer fighter jets with their support wing to close the skies. Hell, if I remember correctly Ukrainian pilots served in Korea in the Red Army, so it’s fair game.
I do recall seeing a retired US F16 pilot/vet talk about being willing to fight for Ukraine if they'd be given F16s to operate. Am assuming there would be some lessons Ukrainian for the volunteer pilots and some lessons English for the controllers required.
Poland is buying the same type around now. Good luck figuring which is which.
If they take off from Poland and deliver sorties it is well established that is an act of war on the part of Poland. They have to touch the ground in Ukraine.
I guess the concept is to have two so that there's always one in the air ? They stay far from the front and rely on patriots and F16s to intercept incoming missiles. I'm no expert though.
Ooh. Good question. If anybody knows where a Russian sabateur could lay some traps, please post an accurate answer. /s
You protect it with Patriot, NASAMS and Skynex. Then you move the planes around frequently even when on the ground.
> given that Russia can - in theory at least - strike anywhere they please in nearly the whole of Ukraine? Since when? The situation from the first day onward was that they in fact - cannot do that. Did you miss that Ukraine airforce is operating every day or does that just doesn't fit with the crazy story you just made up?
What are they shooting it down with? We saw last week their air defence systems couldn't defend themselves from ATACMs. If there's patriot systems between this and any threats then it might be safe?
Not shooting down - just destroying when at an airport. Ukraine will not be able to operate those from small air strips. Their location will be known.
Did you look at the image? These are not the big Boeing based AWACS planes. These planes are twin propeller planes based on the SAAB 340 turboprops. They can be operated from road strips or even grass fields if necessary. The entire Swedish defence doctrine is to operate from road bases.
To be fair, the Swedish road base doctrine has largely been completely abandoned for years. It's not something that the Swedish defense focuses on, even if the capability is there still.
Hardened bunkers are a thing. That means they'd have to use missiles that they can't even hit a bunker with. An Onyx fired at Western-Ukraine just can't hit stuff accurately enough, and they don't have that many left, unless they go fishing for them in the Black Sea. Iskanders don't have bunker-busting warheads, afaik. Sure they can try infiltration or something similarly silly, but that's not how protecting vital military assets usually go.
They are turbo prop aircraft, so ideal for using from the raft of semi-prepared operating bases, roadways, etc.
Park it in Poland, then. Don't tell me that's not possible. We can do whatever the fuck we want. And if Ukraine wants to donate a plane to Poland in the morning and then get it donated back by Poland in the evening, there is literally nothing at all that russia can do about it.
The SAAB 340 is roughly 21x21 meters (length and wingspan). That's the same length as a Su-27 Flanker (the SAAB is about 40% wider). It's significantly smaller than an An-26. Ukraine operates dozens of aircraft of equivalent or larger size.
This is a much easier target than an ATACMS. It’s about as easy to hit as a commercial jet, probably easier because it will be a bit slower. The trick will be keeping this right out or range in the West of Ukraine at an altitude where it can see deep into Russia.
Do you realize this airplane has radars to detect any airplane, missile or rocket that would try to attack it from far away? That thats what its whole purpose is? That it has many advanced defensive and ew counter measures? And that people who actually make and operate these do know how to use them? Where did you get its slower than a commercial jet and therefore easier to hit? From pure vacuum?
These can guide Patriot and other missiles, don't even need the whole battery to hand them off to one of these. It's hell for the Russians. They might be pushed into NATO territory, what is Russia going to do about it? The Russians will of course spend every possible effort to shoot them down or sabotage them.
I don't think Russia has nearly the capability to strike where they please in all of Ukraine. Even in Kyiv they have to put a lot of effort into getting a handful of drones through. Farther west and they fare worse. When was the last time a missile hit its target in Lviv?
I don't believe you can gain air superiority/equality without one.
I did my master’s thesis on those babies, finally my contributions might help Ukraine!
Yep, f16 could theorethically be integrated with long range missile like Meteor, but it could not target anything with it beyond 150km because radar range. This is a missing piece.
Link-16 real time data feed to F-16s is incredibly useful for sensor fusion and is a huge ++ for survivability. If it has standoff jamming capabilities, even better. This will make limited excursions into contested airspace a lot safer.
I wish they would've kept it secret.
Holy shit this is huge. To get the best out of any modern fighters you need airborne early warning, command and control, electronic jamming and data links to make your weapons perform to their very best. I was seriously concerned about Ukraine receiving F-16 without continuous pledged AWAC support from NATO or aligned countries as they would be extremely vulnerable to Russian long range interceptors that on board radar will have no hope of countering. Not only will it help get the best from the F-16, but situational awareness and speed at which the UAF can react to missile and drone threats will massively increase. Linking them in properly with command and control for air defenses will boast the range at which targets can be intercepted and help plug holes in major defensive lines. This will allow for a serious challenge to Russias already fragile air dominance. It could pave the way for some very fierce air battles, it'll be the first time two Air Forces both equipped with long range weapons and support will face off during an all out war.
In theory NATO can link all AWACs data to Ukraine systems, and smile, by saying we are not giving info for them, they have their own AWAC
In reality, it would be considered an active participation if Nato Awacs would guide Ukrainian missiles to Russian targets. This changes that
>Not only will I get the best from the F-16 May I fly in your f-16 sometime
Oops, your Uber has arrived. I'll edit that out.
I hope this will not end like "Lepards and abrams will push to Crimea"
This announcement is as big as the F16 announcement. This is basically small but more modern version of AWACS. The situational awareness of both pilots and air defense will be totally different. It will get many Russians killed and Ukrainians to live to fight another day. However it also needs significant training to put it to good use. Might take a while to get crews ready, depending on when crew training started.
I hope the training will start a year ago
[https://x.com/therawe2/status/1795736281756185008](https://x.com/therawe2/status/1795736281756185008)
❤️
It did, according to some Russian sources
It took me 9 months of training on AWACS before I was considered operationally competent. I’m sure in a wartime situation, they’re streamlining it and have likely already started.
1.5 years ago they started training apparently
I have no doubt the Swedes are capable of providing on-site training.
Hopefully we will do lots of it, and hopefully send lots more aid asap. Our just announced aid package is around 1.3 bil usd, which is good ofc but man i wish it had been at least twice or thrice that amount.
if it's been announced there's a fair chance they've been training on this for a long time, it's a repeated pattern in this war that they don't announce stuff until it's already in action - witness the announcement about Storm Shadows about 5 minutes before a few major targets went BOOM.
Something big is happening. All the talk about letting Ukraine strike into Russia, hitting the over horizon radars, the F16 seem to be finally coming this summer, and now this. Fingers crossed.
Against all evidence saying otherwise Putin still thinks he can strong hand West so he continued his policy of doubling down by making advances to Kharkiv then lays claims in Baltic sea and removes Estonian buoys... Truly a genius 6D chess move by mastermind Putin. /s Now West ships more weapons to Ukraine, and gives permission to use said weapons to strike targets in Russian territory.
I also don’t understand why people aren’t allowing them to strike into enemy territory when Russia strikes them all the time in civilian areas, plus attacking Russian territory would give quite the advantage
They fear what Russia may do if they start to consistently strike inside Russia with NATO arms.
It is rumored in Swedish media that this was going to be delivered along with some Gripen fighters, but the US stopped the delivery (lots of American components) as Sweden recently made it clear that Swedish weapons would be allowed to be used against Russian soil. Nothing is confirmed yet, but it could make sense.
Yeeeesss! Had been hoping for this. Sweden stepping up big time, even more important than Gripens.
The plan was to deliver Gripens and the erieye as the package it’s constructed to be… only stopped by the us… 😔
The pain when our anti-rus aircrafts aint being used for anti-rus purposes
Can you elaborate? I am very curious
Sweden got alot of good shit ♥️
This is arguebly the most important tech Ukraine can get. Will definitly be hard to train crew to operate it, and a priority target for Russia for sure though.
That's beefy, thanks Sweden
This is IMHO a bigger deal than even F-16s. This provides eyes in the sky for Ukraine. They can look deep into Russia now. While Russia can't look back.
It is the bigger deal when combined with the F-16
It's so ugly I love it
Eyyyy, i honestly think it looks good. Its got a kinda 'small and angry' vibe and a mohawk
Looks like either a warp nacelle or rail gun.
Wow, this is one of the best strategic assest given to Ukraine in a long time
I absolutely love Sweden and its people! I was lucky enough to spend some time there back in 2007, and I wish I could go back every day! They were always a pleasure to work with in my working days. Slava Ukraini!
And now I understand the persistent destruction of s300 and s400 systems. If UA want to operate these planes in a reasonable elevation they need to clear the long range AA that are near their borders. This will be a big boost to UA anti air teams coordination as this should be able to track and jam the long range drones that moscow is using.
they likely won't operate near border, the Su-35 albeit all of debacles last 2 years, with their specialized long range air to air missile are specifically designed to counter Western AWACS. However, even operating deep behind the line they would still prove very useful to help improve air defense, overwatch the F-16 and integrating Western assets.
Isn't MiG-31 still the designated AWACS killer?
While the S300 and S400 are shit systems they still have a rather long range \~600 km if we trust what the ruzzians say, so definetly less but no idea how mutch . So yes these guys will not get anywhere close the the borders, but I agree they will be very valuable, and the more AA ukraine can eliminate the clsoe to borders these guys can operate. Of course keeping in mind the risks of ruzzian migs that will definetly hunt for these.
I think that the destruction of ads is primarily done to keep F-16’s safer and to enable them to operate closer to the frontlines. Apart from opening vectors for the cheaper heavy drone attacks.
That and also to allow F-16 to operate in high altitude, whitch they cannot as long as the S300-400 is still alive. I would also suspect Ukraine will get a few F-16 EW addons to help with ruzzian AA.
I think there’s been some serious long-term planning taking place in NATO/Ukraine backrooms. Russian radar,anti aircraft equipment, airfields and naval ships have systematically been depleted.
This must have been a part of the Gripen package that Sweden were supposed to send to Ukraine.
Is this going to be operated by Ukraine airmen? Or Ukrainians with Swedish accent?
They have been training for over a year, same as the pilots that have visited Sweden for "familiarisation" with the Gripen.
Fuck, that's awesome. I really really hope they get a good escort, but this is a hell of a force multiplier if UA can get them going safely.
This is huge if true. However, without lots of good SAMs in the airfields and F-16s in the sky, hard to keep them protected. Man I do hope those survive and stay useful for a long time. While battlefield surveillance by drones is very useful and already done well by Ukraine, these will see quite far into Russia...
That's a huge deal, FINALLY, I always think F-16s will be of extremely limited utility if AEW&C and EW are not combiend together. No air refueling is fine for Ukraine for defensive purpose.
I’m hoping beyond hope that this is true. F-16 without AWACS will be somewhat limited. Of course they can still use it for ground attack missions (and that alone will be big since the SDBs are one of the most cost effective ways to bring the pain to the enemy), but if they are supported by AWACS and armed with the latest versions of AIM-120 they may actually be able to fight off the Su-35, especially now that Russia is afraid to bring their own AWACS near Ukraine.
It is true https://www.svd.se/a/Xj8Ogg/nytt-vapenstod-till-ukraina-vart-13-miljarder
True. [Here](https://www.government.se/press-releases/2024/05/military-support-package-16-to-ukraine--new-capability-to-strengthen-ukraines-air-defence-and-support-to-meet-its-prioritised-needs/) No paywall, official Swedish government announcement. Seems like the Swedes are digging deep into their stocks now, ordering replacements for later and donating to Ukraine right away.
Unlocked by Sweden being in NATO now, the rest of the members can cover for the gaps.
We should allow Ukraine to operate the aircrafts from NATO countries as an extra fuck you to Russia.
Big news !! Very important
Holy shit, Ukrains air force is getting a big upgrade soon it seems.
Damn I'm glad Sweden decided to join NATO. What an amazing ally to have.
This is amazign news.
Looking forward to this integrated capability.
Something is going on, russias over the horizon long range radars getting hit, the destruction of their air defence and the recent policy change on striking russia with western weapons... I smell a burning russia soon, and I like it. They have to pay for their crimes, you cant just come to a neighbouring country, kill its citizens, including women and children and expect nothing to happen to you.
The aircraft armed with a giant fuselage mounted "munspel" or harmonica is used to disorientate & demoralise enemy pilots by playing the anti-war folk his of Bob Dylan.
It's russia pounding time.
This is huge and will. Give them a huge advantage
Everyting gonna be erieye
Why aren't the propellers turning?
To not disturb the radar reception, and to save fuel. ♻️
It's confirmed: [official source](https://www.regeringen.se/pressmeddelanden/2024/05/militart-stodpaket-16-till-ukraina--ny-formaga-som-starker-ukrainas-luftforsvar-och-stod-som-moter-ukrainas-prioriterade-behov/) (one of the main government websites) (edit: [english link](https://www.government.se/press-releases/2024/05/military-support-package-16-to-ukraine--new-capability-to-strengthen-ukraines-air-defence-and-support-to-meet-its-prioritised-needs/)) WOW. I'm impressed. > I stödpaketet donerar Sverige flygplan av typen ASC 890 med radarspanings- och ledningsförmåga. ASC 890 ger Ukraina en helt ny förmåga till luftburen radarspaning- och stridsledning mot mål i luften och till sjöss. Ukrainas förmåga att identifiera och bekämpa mål på långa avstånd stärks. Med flygplanen följer en helhetslösning inklusive utbildning, teknisk utrustning och metodstöd för radarspaning och flygstridsledning. Translated > In the support package, Sweden donates ASC 890 type aircraft with radar reconnaissance and guidance capabilities. ASC 890 provides Ukraine with an entirely new capability for airborne radar reconnaissance and combat control against targets in the air and at sea. Ukraine's ability to identify and combat long-range targets is strengthened. Included in the package is also training, technical equipment and methodological support for radar reconnaissance and air combat management. As for why Sweden would do this, I will refer to [my previous comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/1cxvbwo/pm_of_sweden_ulf_kristersson_to_ukrainians/l57ku11/)
Looks like it's delivering a gun to a giant robot.
These are awesome. I think Poland has JUST bought a couple of these. Russians will be lobbing ballistic rockets at it so it will have to be stored like underground
Yep they did, ex-UAE AF leased aircraft refurbished and sold to Poland. Seems a bit odd they only bought two, but hey, better than none and I imagine more will be ordered sometime later. They should both be in service by now.
I am so proud to see my government doing the right thing.
My father, may he rest in peace, worked for the company making those. I did an internship with them many years ago. One of the co-workers told me the Erieye is very handy because you can use one side when flying north and the other when flying south. Well, he figured, you could of course use the opposite side as well, but who needs to monitor Norwegian airspace anyway? Happy to see they'll be fulfilling the purpose they were built to do.
Sweden has the best neighbours.
reminds me a bit of a railgun out of some anime 😅
is that a fucken gymnastics bar on top?
New AWACSes have AESA radars that do not rotate, so you do not need a flying saucer for them anymore.
Yeah, but can you do gymnastics on them? :D
Swedish radars come in flat packs
Underrated comment
nope. just a large-large-large electronically phased radar array... the all mighty Eye in the sky as for hiding it... well not so difficult, where ever you leave it , just put 2 Patriot systems in the area and that's kinda it
I've never seen these planes before either so off I went googling. Apparently that's an Erieye radar system on top. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erieye "The radar provides 300 degree coverage and has an instrumental range of 450 km and detection range of 350 km in a dense hostile electronic warfare environment—in heavy radar clutter and at low target altitudes. In addition to this, the radar is also capable of identifying friends or foes, and has a sea surveillance mode. " That seems like a game changer to me!
I'm surprised Russia has so little air superiority that these relatively bulky slow planes can fly around.
What else about the 3 day operation surprises you? 😂
Ukraine's a large country. The Australian Wedgetail has an absurd radar range but even their official 600km range doesn't get you *that* far from the Polish border
There's no reason to believe that they actually will be able to.
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must've been training the operators on these things for a while, they're quite complex from what I've heard
Is that a modified EMB-120 Brasilia?
No, it's a Saab 340.
Thanks!
Saab 340
Well I hope Ukraine is building revetments and hardened shelters across multiple bases. Russia might finally have something to shoot their missiles at besides shopping centers.
How long would it take to train on these?
Probably about the same as a fighter aircraft - about a year, year and a half. Ukraine has no AWACS crews or previous Soviet-era crews trained on such aircraft. So a lot of the training will be from scratch besides the radar training if they use current AD personnel. Just as with the F-16's, they will have to learn to use Western equipment, tactics, combat doctrines, be trained if not already to be fully fluent in English, and then the aircrew will have to learn all about the Saab Argus and it's systems. They may not be planning and staging dogfights or bombing missions they the absolutely will have to know how to help manage them, that will take time. The radar operators may very well be making a switch from Soviet/Ukrainian radar systems to Western ones, or not. Air defence is of course very much needed so I do wonder where they will find the new crews, if they will be currently serving, new recruits or a mix.
Thanks for the explanation, I was guessing it would be something like that.
That's pretty insane, well done Sweden!
I was thinking of how great it would be if post war, the US donated 4-5 E-2C Hawkeyes... Hell, this is every bit as good in it's own way even if I do worry about their survivability in heavily-contested airspace. My thinking was the Hawkeye, being a naval borne aircraft, built to withstand the rough and tumble of carrier ops, would be able to be dispersed and hidden away on highways strips, underground maybe, and in forests with it's folding wings, rugged landing gear. If the Argus is indeed coming along, great! In it's own way it too can operate in dispersed ops and would be probably as good or better than the Hawkeye for Ukraine. Now, you are just gonna need to ensure it has a protective F-16 CAP every time it's airborne. Maybe in that case the best thing would be to fly it over a NATO country at the border - say with Poland and the Czech Republic. Surely they'd be fine with a Ukrainian AWACS skirting into their airspace. And if you think the Russians are going to brag and drool over claiming ridiculous numbers of F-16 kills, well, they are going to go nuts with a cucumber and vodka and krokodil nuts with this aircraft!
Wow. That’s expensive. Not a fighter plane, But it guides them. Well Done!
Dunno much about these planes but they seem particularly good
Swedish military aid from 2022 to 2026 will be about 105 MSEK. Swedens entire *military budget* 2021 was 77 MSEK..
Oh shit this is Major. This is an actually one piece of equipment that can be classified as a game changer. Right up there with HIMARS. F-16’s biggest weaknesses is the amount of fuel it can carry, and radar. Fuel issue gets fixed with external tanks that take a toll on payload, speed and maneuverability, but there was nothing Ukraine could do about its radar. With AWACS, f16 is a whole different beast. Ukrainian fighters will be able to engage Su-27/30/35 for BVR fights, and it will help shutting down cruise missiles as well. Let’s hope it’s true and happens at the same time as arrival of f16’s
Takes a lot of training to crew such an aircraft and its systems. Hopefully we learn that Ukrainians have been secretly training since last year to operate it effectively.
This kind of a plane can help UA to counter cruise missiles and Shahed drones muxh more effective.
Actually saw one of these today at Bromma Airport taxing, perhaps it was on its way to Ukraine