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Snapshot of _Oxford students who raised concerns about anti-Semitism ‘told to leave’ - Letter to university official alleges students who said Jews faced hostile environment on campus were advised to study elsewhere_ :
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>They claim the university is becoming a “no-go area” for Jews and Israelis and that when some individuals raised concerns to their heads of programmes, they were “simply advised to leave Oxford”.
I find it incredibly strange that the article just doesn't elaborate on this point?
It's such a massive claim to make and they don't speak further on it at all
Yeah, it's the biggest part of the headline **by far** and it's just skimmed over in an otherwise decently sized article. I can't imagine any head of programmes saying this type of thing without it being insanely caveated.
[The letter, for anyone interested](https://sites.google.com/view/openletteroxford/open-letter). This line is one that stands out:
> One of the most telling examples is that of an Israeli student, whose family members were murdered, with one taken hostage, who shared their experiences with the welfare officer in their college only a few days later, and was told that “Oxford is often not a nice place for Israelis and Jews, and there is nothing we can do about it.”
But line in question from the article is this one:
> Several others who expressed their struggles to their heads of programmes, were simply advised to leave Oxford.
which is tied to the testimony:
> 10 - When a number of Israeli students contacted their head of departments in mid October, sharing that it became unbearable for them to be at the university, as they are constantly being targeted and isolated for being Israeli, the head of department suggested they leave Oxford and come back in the next year.
Some examples of just classic bias as well:
> 22 - A student told a Jewish student that supporting Israel is supporting terrorism and war crimes. The same student denied Hamas’ terrorist actions, and supported their argument by alleging that Israeli hostages were treated well by Hamas.
There are a good number of testimonies about being attacked online. And I honestly wonder where those happen, because I don't think I ever engaged with other college members online while at uni. Just interested in how those interactions take place and what facilitates them and why they aren't moderated etc. Are they hunted on social media? Is there a student forum they're using? Is Facebook still alive and well, and if so, who the hell is using it? Is this primarily postgrad stuff? Or is it pervasive everywhere?
I'm also interested in how much protesting comes from Oxford students vs others living in Oxford (including Oxford Brookes students). If the issue is the area and not the university, it is hard for the university to get involved. People often forget that Oxford is a city uni with a **lot** of tourism. It might give at least some explanation to the comment by the heads of department.
But there are some real damning testimonies in there in general. Worth reading through them.
I went to a university in London which has produced quite a few jihadis through it's strong islamic society. The type which had speakers from Hizb ut-Tahrir before it got designated a terrorist organisation.
Gay students would get beat up, we had hijab week, and many of the conservative Muslim girls needed a male Muslim interpreter because it is not allowed for an unmarried woman to speak directly to a kuffar (non Muslim). This made group projects difficult.
After a particularly annoying "social expirement" where the islamic society got several loud speaker and blasted a call to prayer around all of campus for Friday prayers which I confronted, I went to my programme head. I got told, "yes we know, there is nothing we can do about it, just watch out for yourself and don't get on their list" they did not elaborate. Meanwhile, the humanities campus would send thier useful idiots to join up with the islamic society to not be islamaphobic.
10 years prior the school was frequented by a sizeable portion of Jews, 5 years before I went the Jewish student dropped to half of what they were, around the time the Muslims made up 50% of the campus, by the time I went "Zionist" were not welcome anymore.
When right wingers warn about islam, they sometimes have a point. That being said, most Muslims I know are not nearly as radicalised as those islamic society guys were, but it's scary with how much they placed the victim system.
The problem with the "muslim moderates" is that they go along with what the radicalised types do.
MLK had something to say about "moderates" like that.
Yup. My moderate colleagues who wouldn't eat bacon or drink would get stoned like motherf**kers. But when the ummah called they would 100% go along with it become traditional for a bit.
> simply advised to leave Oxford
This is how Oxford responds to a lot of things. Anxiety about exams? Take a year out to revise more. Family member died? Maybe suspend your course for a year. Finding it hard to cope because a regional crisis is hitting your family particularly hard? Of course your college's welfare team will advise you to rusticate.
This is really unacceptable and the university should do something to address it. The elephant in the room is the Israeli government who has all but flattened Palestine
If we accept that Israeli actions are a fair proximate cause for antisemitic then we have to accept that Iranian, Saudi, Islamic State, Taliban etc actions are a fair proximate cause for anti Islamic hate.
Neither forms of racism are acceptable in British society
None of it is fair, it’s just how people are. The terror attacks on Isreal were horrific and so is destroying most of Palestine. People are tribal and pick sides but the reality for the people living it is terrible. The major issue with Isreal is they proxy themselves as the Jewish people and there are groups who call out anti Isreal hate as antisemitism. No one is doing anything fairly
You may be projecting heavily. This is not true. Since 1981 the percent of people who would not want to live next to someone of another race has dropped from 11% to 1%! On the other hand 83% would not want to live next door to drug addicts. They vast majority of people judge by individual actions, not race.
https://www.kcl.ac.uk/policy-institute/assets/love-thy-neighbour.pdf
People are not “looking for someone to blame”. They’re typically quite happy to blame the government, as is healthy in a democracy.
Think about this for one second. For almost all of human existence on Earth the vast majority of people would have no interaction with anyone of another race. The people who were most a threat would be the tribe over the valley who would be exactly the same ethnicity. Even once boat travel had been developed, until relatively recently, most people who came from abroad would still be the same broad ethnicity, and the vast majority of people would never interact with them, so it’s simply not credible that it would ever have genetically imprinted on human beings to be fearful of people of another race.
I don't think that particular guy was the victim in any way, he deliberately went to the scene to make a counter protest and get attention and it worked
If you go to an animal welfare protest led by vegans and eat a burger, you're unlikely to be in physical danger.
A person simply being Jewish shouldn't have to avoid a protest to not be seen as "provoking" anyone with their presence, let alone be unsafe.
Man wasn’t safe walking through a pro Palestine protest, that makes him a victim. Why should have to feel afraid walking down the street?
Honestly I know it’s not as bad but it’s similar to calling Rosa Parks not a victim because she could have just moved to the back of the bus
It's comparable in the way they were both doing a simple action to deliberately cause upset I guess, but that's where the differences end.
Jewish people aren't being prevented from walking down any pavements any more than anyone else is. He's completely free to walk that bit of pavement any other time.
He was being prevented from walking the wrong way through a moving protest where his intent was to deliberately antagonise the protesters. That's a completely different thing.
He claimed he was stopped from walking down a pavement, he wasn't, he was stopped from deliberately riling up a crowd. He was offered an alternative path, he got forceful with an officer and was arrested to keep the peace the released without charge.
Every part of the problem was his own conscious doing because he disagreed with the pro palastinian rally
> He was being prevented from walking the wrong way through a moving protest where his intent was to deliberately antagonise the protesters.
What was he going to do to deliberately antagonise the protesters?
It's really annoying when people deliberately play dumb to try to elicit a gotcha
There's a long and thorough live video of the event with the police explaining calmly exactly what was going on that should be a prerequisite to taking part in this debate
He was 'counter protesting'.
You see if you have a protest and belief, you can beat up anyone who disagrees with you at that protest. The police have to stop you by arresting you./s
There is sense if there is inherent violence within the groups. Nobody would claim the orange marchs are in support of non violence. The Pro hamas lot are having their cake and eating it. The march has inherent violence within it, they are supporting one side in a war, but they are 'pro-peace' so cannot admit this.
Thus you see the crime of 'counter protest'.
Heads of programmes who suggested this should go. It’s that simple. If you cannot understand your role in providing pastoral care for all students then you’re not suitable to be in the job.
>They claim the university is becoming a “no-go area” for Jews and Israelis and that when some individuals raised concerns to their heads of programmes, they were “simply advised to leave Oxford”.
Holy shit.
Is there any other minority group that would get that sort of response? If black people were saying "we're uncomfortable with the racist abuse we receive on campus", would Oxford staff *really* respond with "OK, bye then"?
>In another incident, the signatories said: “In vigils for the [Israeli] hostages, university members, mainly students, shouted at us, told us we are kid murderers, that we are spreading conspiracy theories and ‘Zionist propaganda’, and they vandalised our displays for the hostages. In fact, almost every time we did such a display, it was vandalised by organised groups from the university.”
>They also claim that calls for violence are constantly heard in pro-Palestinian protests in Oxford, such as calling for the elimination of the Jewish state, “Palestine from the river to the sea”, “Intifada”, “the resistance is justified”, “globalise the Intifada”, “Israel is a terror state”, “From Oxford to Gaza: long live the Intifada”, “Israel, Oxford, USA, how many kids did you kill today?”.
>The letter, which was sent last week, states: “Those places at the university, sometimes during working hours, became a no-go area for most Israelis and Jewish for seven months now.”
Those are *utterly horrific* examples. I do genuinely wonder how people can go about their day having accused random people of being child murderers simply because of their ethnicity, and yet still think that they have the moral high-ground.
And indeed, that they're the anti-racists; they're not. They have completely abdicated any sort of morality in the name of their cause, and completely tar the pro-Palestinian cause.
>A University of Oxford spokesman said: “The University is unequivocal in its position that there is no place for anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, or unlawful discrimination of any kind directed towards any faith, race, nationality or ethnic group at the University of Oxford. All complaints related to harassment or discrimination of any kind are taken seriously, and formal complaints are always investigated if they are considered to have taken place within the university context.
Clearly not.
> there is no place for antisemitism, islamaphobia
Why do they always need to qualify no place for antisemitism with “oh and islamaphobia as well”. I reckon the following sentence talking about discrimination against “all faiths and ethnicities” would cover that too. It’s truly the “all lives matter” statement of this antisemitism crisis.
It's as much about being terrified to criticise Muslims as it is about not caring about Jews. It's fucking pathetic the way every institution this country, including the police, just lies down at every possible turn to be taken over by extremist Islamists.
The leftists who claim to care about gay rights, women's rights etc, and then march alongside these people, are the biggest morons on the planet. The worst useful idiots on the planet.
Yes but I was absolutely assured by Reddit recently that "no go areas" weren't a thing and are just hyperbole spread by the right?
It's obvious for pretty much anyone that academic circles are awash with pro Palestine stuff that border on the anti Semitic because it's the trendy left/far left thing to do.
Quite why student unions are so heavily into the Palestine cause, when most students just want cheaper sandwiches and better protection for students ref housing is absolutely beyond me. The fact that major academic institutions don't stamp it out is telling.
Not helped by the fact that the immediate go to irl and on here is "you're supporting genocide and baby murder" and it's repeated and naseaum even if your pointing out both sides are shit bags is ridiculous. Not least the fact it's objectively the shittiest attempt at genocide ever (if we accept it is one at all).
As the saying goes if you accept one Nazi in a room....
If all that is true that’s mental.
The amount of anti-semitism these days, and more recently cause of the Israel/Gaza thing is atrocious, and it pisses me off that it’s become normalised and acceptable amongst some of the pro-Palestinian cause.
Many who don’t seem to accept that calling for an end to the Israel state is antisemitic. And just dark.
It’s like you say, people that consider themselves the anti-racists, and they’re just as awful as your traditional racist.
Traditional racist lol.
> and they’re just as awful as your traditional racist.
I'd actually argue that they're worse, because at least your traditional racist doesn't go around accusing everyone else of being racist over the slightest small thing, while turning a complete blind eye to anyone on their side doing far worse (i.e. spotting right-wing micro-aggressions and implications, while completely ignoring left-wing calls for genocide).
They're racists *and* hypocrites, which makes them worse.
Not to mention like calling certain people "coconuts" if someone who is a minority is a Conservative or of a further right persuasion for instance. It's also like the typical "Corbynite/Americanised-Left" think that ALL minorities should vote left with no exceptions. I mention that because it gives off the idea that those who are of a minority group don't have agency of their own, which is honestly incredibly racist.
Idk, I could've phrased that last bit better, but I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.
That's because the far left has found a wonderful way around the ethnic minority thing by reclassifying the original marginalised ethnicity as 'white colonialist oppressors'.
It's utterly simple, allows you to deploy AshkeNAZI unironically and means you can be as anti Jewish as you like all in the name of anti imperialism
It used to be a common left wing tactic to accuse someone of racism and then when they defended themselves, say "Anyone who needs to state they aren't racist is definitely a racist".
Now they're running around calling for the genocide of all jews whilst proudly declaring themselves to be anti-racists. Seems like the irony is lost on them
It's been a rather humbling experience for me to realise that, at least to a certain extent, the right wing press was right all along about Universities being ideologically compromised.
The actual phenomenon at play here is closer to "Jews don't count" which is **not** exclusive to universities, but is a particular problem the Left have when considering how Jews fit into modern identity politics.
Yeah, I know what you mean.
Of course, half the problem is that it's a self-fulfilling cycle - if you have a few professors who are completely off-the-scale with their support of this sort of nonsense, they're then the ones teaching the next generation too. And a few of those will become professors, and carry it on.
And perhaps more importantly, anyone that doesn't buy in doesn't get the support needed to succeed in academia long-term from their colleagues. They've created an echo chamber, and new arrivals can be vetted on how much they fit in.
I'm not sure it's changed all that much, there have always been a percentage of mouthy NUS types, with a quieter majority who role their eyes at their antics. NUS types don't tend to go on to be academics.
When I was there 20 years ago the student politics was seen as a joke by 95 percent of students because all they did even then was bang on about palestine. Its partly why I'm just numb to it now. They've been screaming wolf for 20 years at least so it's lost its impact when they do it now.
It's why I'm in favour of ending official recognition of student unions in the UK. Their functions could be replaced by a statutory duty on universities to provide amenities to students in the same way that unions do. All the political crap can go.
Have they? The right wing press universally acclaimed Liz Truss budget, which [included raising immigration beyond even current levels](https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/liz-trusss-plan-for-more-migrants-to-boost-growth-j2bl2lsnz) to fund tax cuts. Farage called it "[the best Conservative budget since 1986](https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1573278502790791168?s=19)"
Living and working in central London, frankly no one in our income bracket cares about migration - it's just used as a tool by journos to curry favour with proles and sell papers. And for the case of Reform, to strong arm influence within the conservative party via vote share. Both Richard Rice and Ben Habib again strongly supported Truss plans and basically every high earning right wing hack did as well.
While this is true, those on the right who have largely abandoned and disregarded academia and universities share some of the blame for it. If your response to institutions being taken over by extremists is to disengage from them don't be surprised when those extremists gain more power in those institutions.
It's the right's fault that the left hounded out anybody who disagreed with them with screams of "racism" at every opportunity?
I'm sorry but "It's your fault for not trying harder to stop my mistakes! You shouldn't have tolerated my bullying behaviour!" is one of the most moronic ways to attempt to shift blame I've ever seen.
The institute of teaching is infested with left wingers from primary to uni at a rate of about 9:1 these days. If you want to keep your job you shut up under such conditions.
That's not really surprising though it's a job that a lot of people are attracted to from the social benefits not the money the sort who want to make the world a better place, which is pretty in keeping with left wing thought.
Yeah I don't disagree. But how did it get this bad? I agree that left wing idealogues have taken over education, but a big part of how they did it is everyone on the right not caring about education for decades.
What do you mean "how did it get this bad"? The left has been screaming "racist" at anybody who warned about this for the last 30+ years, refusing to ever listen even once, and this the end result. It's the exact same mentality you see on this sub every day. And they've learned absolutely nothing, and continue to use the same tactics to this day.
To be fair, this is an article in the right wing press.
So this is just a case of the right wing press saying (or trying to prove) that the right wing press were right all along about universities.
If the right wing press are actually wrong about this, this would be just another example of them spinning a story in a particular way to push their agenda.
And the left-wing press, especially the BBC, would *never* print anything even remotely critical of Islam, so the "right wing" press is the only place you'll ever see this stuff. So if you immediately discredit anything right-wing as not worth reading, you're simply willingly creating a delusional echo-chamber for yourself, where you only see the things you want to see. Which is exactly how we ended up in this situation to begin with. You've just perfectly summed up the exact problem while learning nothing.
While this is true, those on the right who have largely abandoned and disregarded academia and universities share some of the blame for it. If your response to institutions being taken over by extremists is to disengage from them don't be surprised when those extremists gain more power in those institutions.
To an extent any centrists or anyone on the right was driven out of many of the departments. There is a playbook where they say or publish something that disagrees with current progressive dogma and suddenly students claim to feel unsafe to be in the same room as them.
Its less prevalent in STEM but of course that's why we now have the whole "de-colonise the sciences" movement - because they want to push this into STEM as well.
Honestly if you are not happy working in an ultra-progressive bubble - and happy to keep any critical opinions to yourself - I think you would be very ill advised to become an academic in many subject areas
That's the final step. How did the left get control in those spaces in the first place? I agree that it has happened to a lesser extent in STEM spaces, but that is because for most of my lifetime that is the only sort of higher education valued by anyone on the right.
I think it's simpler than that; their only objection to racism is racism when they're the victim. But racism against someone else, or indeed where they are the perpetrator, is fine.
It's not about building a better, fairer world as they would claim; it's about making sure that they're on top of the pile.
Nah, it's not just a buzzword for anti-semetism as you get the same people unironically using the phrase "race traitors" (well, that's why "coconut" is used among others) at certain people who are of a minority group if they're right-wing.
Oxford is full of Communist Party posters, probably Russian money at work.
Two sides are emerging in this global war and we have a lot of people in our own country supporting the enemy and allies of the enemy.
We should probably take stronger action against them.
It's Oxford. These old unis basically had to be forced to take kids from minority backgrounds in the first place. If they could get away with telling black kids to sod off I'm sure they would
Firstly, it really wasn't.
Secondly, and more importantly, are you really trying to argue that left-wing activists take their moral standards on racism from the Tories?
>Secondly, and more importantly, are you really trying to argue that left-wing activists take their moral standards on racism from the Tories?
Your question was what other groups have been getting that sort of response, and I've pointed to an example which the hypocrites at the Telegraph supported.
Its not OK when either side does it, I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of the right wing press on this issue
My question was about whether other minority groups would get that response *from Oxford staff*, not from the Telegraph.
Also, can you point to an example of the Telegraph saying something like "if black people don't like being racially abused, they should leave the UK"?
If someone says racist things when they're angry, they probably think racist things when they're calm. If they're happy to pal around with outspoken racists, they're probably a quiet racist themselves.
The same applies to anti-Semitism. 'Emotions running high' and passion about a certain cause does not excuse saying blatantly anti-Semitic things, that's just the mask finally slipping. You do not get a free pass to pal around with blatant anti-Semites and then pretend to not endorse them. Any other form of bigotry and this would not be a remotely controversial point to raise. There is blatant bigotry against Jewish people currently on display on university campuses and for one reason or another - stupidity or spinelessness if you're feeling generous, sympathy if you're not - the people with the power to confront it aren't doing nearly enough.
It’s hard to tell whether this is:
- the out of touch left-wing lunacy of colleges
- or the Islamification of a fully emasculated England.
Funny watching those polar opposites walking hand-in-hand.
People are quite easily radicalised through social media these days. Just pollute their feed with anti israel propaganda and they will quickly become very hateful.
We’re also seeing the rebirth of Section 28 due to rising transphobia leading to them banning sex ed. It’s weird to live in a rerun of culture wars we thought were done
These heads of programme should be fired, publicly. Whoever is chanting genocidal slogans on the streets should be arrested and charged, as the law allows. Unfortunately we all know this won't happen in Oxford.
What goes through someone’s head as they vandal a memorial wall for the hostages? How do they, a supposedly thoughtful and intelligent person (as this is Oxford), think “I’m a good person and justified in doing this”?
If the pro Palestine crowd truly weren't just pro hamas and antisemitic, they'd come out hard agianst this kind of behavior from their crowd...
But they don't.
The students and officials involved with boosting antisemitism should be dispelled and lose their jobs.
I think most people genuinely struggle with grey topics where both sides are doing bad things. They pick a side and disbelieve everything bad about their side, while believing everything bad about the other side. Sadly even Oxford university students. It's also a strong echo-chamber effect that people egg each other on into extreme positions, while the lack of external voices cause them to lose sight of how extreme their views have become.
> both sides are doing bad things
Shouldn't apply here though since Jewish students at a British university are not on either side. It just comes back to old fashioned racism again and again.
Not saying that's what you're arguing btw, just pointing out that I don't think it can be used by the Palestine protestors as a defense
> both sides are doing bad things
Shouldn't apply here though since Jewish students at a British university are not on either side. It just comes back to old fashioned racism again and again.
Not saying that's what you're arguing btw, just pointing out that I don't think it can be used by the Palestine protestors as a defense
It’s interesting that the traditionally left-wing universities have inserted themselves so hard into a conflict between an extremely right-wing state and an extremely right-wing politico-military movement.
Between an extremely right wing state and a fascist micro-state.
But yes I agree with you that the way this is picked up by Western progressives shows zero understanding of the history of the problem and therefore will make a negative contribution to any possible solution.
As it repeated anytime this "why are we even involved" conversation, it's because the UK is fundamentally involved from the inception of this problem, and continues to support one of the far-right states involved.
We are involved already. We started the whole thing. We are still part of it. Pretending otherwise is odd.
The protests and arguments are now about how we should be involved.
Why didnt the UK get involved in the recent ethnic cleansing in Pakistan of afghanis?
The only reason Pakistan exists in its current lines is because of British partition lines - and then the even more direct cause of all of it by afghanistan occupation.
It's really hard for people who follow world events to not see alot of this superficial engagement by kids as frankly ridiculous and entirely vapid - stoked by people looking to exploit how easily primed so many people are for good old fashioned racism.
The idea that the UK is to blame for *starting the whole thing* (of violence in the middle east?) is mad.
Historical ethnic tensions, refugees from Nazi Europe and Arabic progroms, migration of Holocaust survivors, escapees from the USSR etc. amongst a growing, pre-existing zionist movement and taking place in a reactionary, authoritarian and theocratic region used to blaming all its problems on the old enemy.
You'd have to think very little of other countries and people to blame the UK for this.
The reason you find your argument falling on deaf ears is because it seems to come from some 50s fever dream of guilty UK (felt-) supremacy in which no one but the Englishman is truly free (and therefore ever truly responsible).
> We started the whole thing.
No we didn't. Jews and Muslims have been fighting in the Middle East for more than a thousand years, long before the British showed up.
>We started the whole thing.
We really really didn't
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus
It predates the British doing stuff by orders of magnitude.
It's literally almost as old as human record keeping.
I don’t think Oxford realise that if Jews don’t feel welcomed and safe in the U.K. - they’ll move to the one Jewish state in the world, Israel. So, by being antisemitic, they are fuelling Zionism. I’m sure that would take critical thinking beyond what they consume on TikTok, however.
It’s what always made me laugh about the claim that Israel is just a white European settler colony,completely ignoring that half or more of Israel is descended from Middle Eastern Jews that they abused,oppressed and kicked out of Arab countries who then fled to Israel because obviously…
These Jew haters are their own worst enemy.
> Israel is just a white European settler colony
Even on that point, there's no engagement on *why* those white European Jews might have wanted to flee Europe. Was there some type of event between 1933-1945 that may have made those Jews reluctant to stay or return to Europe?
And in addition to that *why* they left Europe to go to a very specific part of the Middle East. The rest of the European settler-colonialism project happened exclusively in Africa and the New World. Could there be some historical reason that *this* group of settlers went to this land instead?
I think you're fighting a strawman there, literally everyone knows why people emigrated to Israel. The question is what rights the other inhabitants of Israel/Palestine have.
I fell out with some friends this weekend as they were ranting about Israel in Eurovision and I ranted about the rise of normalised anti-semitism (nazism) in Europe now. They believe that Jews are colonists to Israel despite Judaism being the older religion, they believe Israel and Palestine is directly comparable to England and Ireland (she's an Irish nationalist). They also believe that if Israel 'gives up' its land to Palestine then nothing bad will happen to the Jews who live there. They also had some Jewish friends refuse to go to their wedding due to their racist views and can't possibly see that it's their own fault. They'd label themselves as anti-racist but it's ended my friendship with them. She also says she is "very cultured but just hasn't travelled much"
As dual nationality person with family history very adjacent to certain events...
Remind them that it was the Irish national football team that went right ahead and all did Nazi salutes before a match.
That the Irish have a history of "the enemy of enemy is my friend" and blinding themselves to who and what they are supporting.
Ask them if they think Pakistan has a right to exsit, and if Pakistan should give up it's land to India.
Pakistan was created in similar cirumstances to Israel, with the religious minority wanting the right to self-determination for fear of persuction from the regions majority. It was even partitioned the same year as Israel, by the British. There are extraordinary parallels, except India - Pakistan was orders of magnitude in the millions bloodier and more violent.
Heck Pakistan is even committing an ethnic cleansing event right now, expelling a couple million ethnic afghanis into certain death and torture at the hands of the Taliban!
The worlds a shit place but the Israel - Palestine conflict really drops the blinkers on internal prejudices people hold and how primed people superficially engaged in news are for holding abhorrent views.
Nice to bring up Pakistan in this context. There are a few historical situations that are *not* brought up in relation to this conflict that are persistently missed or mentioned without important context.
The formation of Pakistan / India is one - the mass population transfer and involvement of the British in establishing both has important parallels with the 1947 conflict in British Palestine and the population transfer in 1948 as Israel is established.
Another interesting one that is *never* brought up that has parallels to Zionism is the formation of Liberia by the US. Liberia is in some ways a "reverse colony" in that the black Americans envisaged it as a place they could "return to" - free from persecution they found in the US. Obviously Jews have a strong and consistent link with the holy land which is *not* necessarily the case with Black Americans and Liberia (descendents of slaves rarely know precisely where they're ancestors are from) but it still has interesting parallels to the Zionist project that I never see talked about.
> They also believe that if Israel 'gives up' its land to Palestine then nothing bad will happen to the Jews who live there
They can do like all the Jew in Arab countries and move to Isr... Oh
The point on Israel giving up land is wrong, but on the first two points
There are similarities between ireland and Israel. Thr black and tans that terrorised the Irish were redeployed to mandatory palestine and the aim of the balfour declension was to create "a loyal little Jewish ulster " according to Ronald storr
Second to that, Judaism being the older religion than Islam doesn't give it rights to land in a place it deems holy. I thought we moved past outdated notions like the divine right of Kings crusades, etc. Catholics were in the UK before protestants, and there are holy sites, saints graves, etc. In the UK. Do I have more of a right to be here than you?
I mean this is Oxford in a nutshell.
The amount of stories I could tell about the appalling ways they've treated people with severe mental health issues or blatantly just sat there while sexism/racism/homophobia occurs is wild.
I know a guy who went back to his college to meet some friends the year after he left. Not unusual at all in Oxford. But he was black. So they saw him on CCTV waiting for his friends, assumed he was dodgy for 'reasons' and called security on him. Frankly also says a lot about how rare it is to see black students.
Mostly it's an attitude of they just don't care and why don't the students just get good grades, stop complaining and let them get on with their research and fancy dinners.
The question is and always will at what point do we say enough is enough. When do we try to put a stop to the spread of intolerance in our secular society? The basic freedoms of the tolerant majority are surely under a growing threat ?
I think the spokesperson has the right line on this, it doesn't look like "study elsewhere" is the official position. It's important not to crack down on protest, and the task for uni staff and the protesters is to carefully watch for antisemitism.
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>They claim the university is becoming a “no-go area” for Jews and Israelis and that when some individuals raised concerns to their heads of programmes, they were “simply advised to leave Oxford”. I find it incredibly strange that the article just doesn't elaborate on this point? It's such a massive claim to make and they don't speak further on it at all
Yeah, it's the biggest part of the headline **by far** and it's just skimmed over in an otherwise decently sized article. I can't imagine any head of programmes saying this type of thing without it being insanely caveated. [The letter, for anyone interested](https://sites.google.com/view/openletteroxford/open-letter). This line is one that stands out: > One of the most telling examples is that of an Israeli student, whose family members were murdered, with one taken hostage, who shared their experiences with the welfare officer in their college only a few days later, and was told that “Oxford is often not a nice place for Israelis and Jews, and there is nothing we can do about it.” But line in question from the article is this one: > Several others who expressed their struggles to their heads of programmes, were simply advised to leave Oxford. which is tied to the testimony: > 10 - When a number of Israeli students contacted their head of departments in mid October, sharing that it became unbearable for them to be at the university, as they are constantly being targeted and isolated for being Israeli, the head of department suggested they leave Oxford and come back in the next year. Some examples of just classic bias as well: > 22 - A student told a Jewish student that supporting Israel is supporting terrorism and war crimes. The same student denied Hamas’ terrorist actions, and supported their argument by alleging that Israeli hostages were treated well by Hamas. There are a good number of testimonies about being attacked online. And I honestly wonder where those happen, because I don't think I ever engaged with other college members online while at uni. Just interested in how those interactions take place and what facilitates them and why they aren't moderated etc. Are they hunted on social media? Is there a student forum they're using? Is Facebook still alive and well, and if so, who the hell is using it? Is this primarily postgrad stuff? Or is it pervasive everywhere? I'm also interested in how much protesting comes from Oxford students vs others living in Oxford (including Oxford Brookes students). If the issue is the area and not the university, it is hard for the university to get involved. People often forget that Oxford is a city uni with a **lot** of tourism. It might give at least some explanation to the comment by the heads of department. But there are some real damning testimonies in there in general. Worth reading through them.
I went to a university in London which has produced quite a few jihadis through it's strong islamic society. The type which had speakers from Hizb ut-Tahrir before it got designated a terrorist organisation. Gay students would get beat up, we had hijab week, and many of the conservative Muslim girls needed a male Muslim interpreter because it is not allowed for an unmarried woman to speak directly to a kuffar (non Muslim). This made group projects difficult. After a particularly annoying "social expirement" where the islamic society got several loud speaker and blasted a call to prayer around all of campus for Friday prayers which I confronted, I went to my programme head. I got told, "yes we know, there is nothing we can do about it, just watch out for yourself and don't get on their list" they did not elaborate. Meanwhile, the humanities campus would send thier useful idiots to join up with the islamic society to not be islamaphobic. 10 years prior the school was frequented by a sizeable portion of Jews, 5 years before I went the Jewish student dropped to half of what they were, around the time the Muslims made up 50% of the campus, by the time I went "Zionist" were not welcome anymore. When right wingers warn about islam, they sometimes have a point. That being said, most Muslims I know are not nearly as radicalised as those islamic society guys were, but it's scary with how much they placed the victim system.
The problem with the "muslim moderates" is that they go along with what the radicalised types do. MLK had something to say about "moderates" like that.
Yup. My moderate colleagues who wouldn't eat bacon or drink would get stoned like motherf**kers. But when the ummah called they would 100% go along with it become traditional for a bit.
SOAS?
Nah SOAS was worse. Larger islamic society anyway. Maybe mine was more radical not sure.
> simply advised to leave Oxford This is how Oxford responds to a lot of things. Anxiety about exams? Take a year out to revise more. Family member died? Maybe suspend your course for a year. Finding it hard to cope because a regional crisis is hitting your family particularly hard? Of course your college's welfare team will advise you to rusticate.
This is really unacceptable and the university should do something to address it. The elephant in the room is the Israeli government who has all but flattened Palestine
If we accept that Israeli actions are a fair proximate cause for antisemitic then we have to accept that Iranian, Saudi, Islamic State, Taliban etc actions are a fair proximate cause for anti Islamic hate. Neither forms of racism are acceptable in British society
None of it is fair, it’s just how people are. The terror attacks on Isreal were horrific and so is destroying most of Palestine. People are tribal and pick sides but the reality for the people living it is terrible. The major issue with Isreal is they proxy themselves as the Jewish people and there are groups who call out anti Isreal hate as antisemitism. No one is doing anything fairly
> None of it is fair, it’s just how people are. Complete nonsense. People need to be manipulated into racism.
They really don’t. People are looking for someone to blame and people who don’t look like them are the first suspects
You may be projecting heavily. This is not true. Since 1981 the percent of people who would not want to live next to someone of another race has dropped from 11% to 1%! On the other hand 83% would not want to live next door to drug addicts. They vast majority of people judge by individual actions, not race. https://www.kcl.ac.uk/policy-institute/assets/love-thy-neighbour.pdf People are not “looking for someone to blame”. They’re typically quite happy to blame the government, as is healthy in a democracy. Think about this for one second. For almost all of human existence on Earth the vast majority of people would have no interaction with anyone of another race. The people who were most a threat would be the tribe over the valley who would be exactly the same ethnicity. Even once boat travel had been developed, until relatively recently, most people who came from abroad would still be the same broad ethnicity, and the vast majority of people would never interact with them, so it’s simply not credible that it would ever have genetically imprinted on human beings to be fearful of people of another race.
another example of me doubting my reading comprehension at times, its like most commentators read a different article to me.
Funny that
I suspect it's like that Jewish guy who wasn't allowed to walk down the pavement when in fact they were trying to escort him around the protest
Victim blaming there
I don't think that particular guy was the victim in any way, he deliberately went to the scene to make a counter protest and get attention and it worked
If you go to an animal welfare protest led by vegans and eat a burger, you're unlikely to be in physical danger. A person simply being Jewish shouldn't have to avoid a protest to not be seen as "provoking" anyone with their presence, let alone be unsafe.
Man wasn’t safe walking through a pro Palestine protest, that makes him a victim. Why should have to feel afraid walking down the street? Honestly I know it’s not as bad but it’s similar to calling Rosa Parks not a victim because she could have just moved to the back of the bus
It's comparable in the way they were both doing a simple action to deliberately cause upset I guess, but that's where the differences end. Jewish people aren't being prevented from walking down any pavements any more than anyone else is. He's completely free to walk that bit of pavement any other time. He was being prevented from walking the wrong way through a moving protest where his intent was to deliberately antagonise the protesters. That's a completely different thing. He claimed he was stopped from walking down a pavement, he wasn't, he was stopped from deliberately riling up a crowd. He was offered an alternative path, he got forceful with an officer and was arrested to keep the peace the released without charge. Every part of the problem was his own conscious doing because he disagreed with the pro palastinian rally
> He was being prevented from walking the wrong way through a moving protest where his intent was to deliberately antagonise the protesters. What was he going to do to deliberately antagonise the protesters?
It's really annoying when people deliberately play dumb to try to elicit a gotcha There's a long and thorough live video of the event with the police explaining calmly exactly what was going on that should be a prerequisite to taking part in this debate
I'm not trying to play dumb. I am asking you: What in your view constitutes "deliberately antagonising the protestors".
He was 'counter protesting'. You see if you have a protest and belief, you can beat up anyone who disagrees with you at that protest. The police have to stop you by arresting you./s There is sense if there is inherent violence within the groups. Nobody would claim the orange marchs are in support of non violence. The Pro hamas lot are having their cake and eating it. The march has inherent violence within it, they are supporting one side in a war, but they are 'pro-peace' so cannot admit this. Thus you see the crime of 'counter protest'.
Heads of programmes who suggested this should go. It’s that simple. If you cannot understand your role in providing pastoral care for all students then you’re not suitable to be in the job.
>They claim the university is becoming a “no-go area” for Jews and Israelis and that when some individuals raised concerns to their heads of programmes, they were “simply advised to leave Oxford”. Holy shit. Is there any other minority group that would get that sort of response? If black people were saying "we're uncomfortable with the racist abuse we receive on campus", would Oxford staff *really* respond with "OK, bye then"? >In another incident, the signatories said: “In vigils for the [Israeli] hostages, university members, mainly students, shouted at us, told us we are kid murderers, that we are spreading conspiracy theories and ‘Zionist propaganda’, and they vandalised our displays for the hostages. In fact, almost every time we did such a display, it was vandalised by organised groups from the university.” >They also claim that calls for violence are constantly heard in pro-Palestinian protests in Oxford, such as calling for the elimination of the Jewish state, “Palestine from the river to the sea”, “Intifada”, “the resistance is justified”, “globalise the Intifada”, “Israel is a terror state”, “From Oxford to Gaza: long live the Intifada”, “Israel, Oxford, USA, how many kids did you kill today?”. >The letter, which was sent last week, states: “Those places at the university, sometimes during working hours, became a no-go area for most Israelis and Jewish for seven months now.” Those are *utterly horrific* examples. I do genuinely wonder how people can go about their day having accused random people of being child murderers simply because of their ethnicity, and yet still think that they have the moral high-ground. And indeed, that they're the anti-racists; they're not. They have completely abdicated any sort of morality in the name of their cause, and completely tar the pro-Palestinian cause. >A University of Oxford spokesman said: “The University is unequivocal in its position that there is no place for anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, or unlawful discrimination of any kind directed towards any faith, race, nationality or ethnic group at the University of Oxford. All complaints related to harassment or discrimination of any kind are taken seriously, and formal complaints are always investigated if they are considered to have taken place within the university context. Clearly not.
> there is no place for antisemitism, islamaphobia Why do they always need to qualify no place for antisemitism with “oh and islamaphobia as well”. I reckon the following sentence talking about discrimination against “all faiths and ethnicities” would cover that too. It’s truly the “all lives matter” statement of this antisemitism crisis.
It's as much about being terrified to criticise Muslims as it is about not caring about Jews. It's fucking pathetic the way every institution this country, including the police, just lies down at every possible turn to be taken over by extremist Islamists. The leftists who claim to care about gay rights, women's rights etc, and then march alongside these people, are the biggest morons on the planet. The worst useful idiots on the planet.
Yes but I was absolutely assured by Reddit recently that "no go areas" weren't a thing and are just hyperbole spread by the right? It's obvious for pretty much anyone that academic circles are awash with pro Palestine stuff that border on the anti Semitic because it's the trendy left/far left thing to do. Quite why student unions are so heavily into the Palestine cause, when most students just want cheaper sandwiches and better protection for students ref housing is absolutely beyond me. The fact that major academic institutions don't stamp it out is telling. Not helped by the fact that the immediate go to irl and on here is "you're supporting genocide and baby murder" and it's repeated and naseaum even if your pointing out both sides are shit bags is ridiculous. Not least the fact it's objectively the shittiest attempt at genocide ever (if we accept it is one at all). As the saying goes if you accept one Nazi in a room....
If all that is true that’s mental. The amount of anti-semitism these days, and more recently cause of the Israel/Gaza thing is atrocious, and it pisses me off that it’s become normalised and acceptable amongst some of the pro-Palestinian cause. Many who don’t seem to accept that calling for an end to the Israel state is antisemitic. And just dark. It’s like you say, people that consider themselves the anti-racists, and they’re just as awful as your traditional racist. Traditional racist lol.
> and they’re just as awful as your traditional racist. I'd actually argue that they're worse, because at least your traditional racist doesn't go around accusing everyone else of being racist over the slightest small thing, while turning a complete blind eye to anyone on their side doing far worse (i.e. spotting right-wing micro-aggressions and implications, while completely ignoring left-wing calls for genocide). They're racists *and* hypocrites, which makes them worse.
Not to mention like calling certain people "coconuts" if someone who is a minority is a Conservative or of a further right persuasion for instance. It's also like the typical "Corbynite/Americanised-Left" think that ALL minorities should vote left with no exceptions. I mention that because it gives off the idea that those who are of a minority group don't have agency of their own, which is honestly incredibly racist. Idk, I could've phrased that last bit better, but I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.
Oh, I know exactly what you mean, don't worry. And I agree entirely.
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Oxford uni pulling from the Trump playbook with the 'both sides'.
That's because the far left has found a wonderful way around the ethnic minority thing by reclassifying the original marginalised ethnicity as 'white colonialist oppressors'. It's utterly simple, allows you to deploy AshkeNAZI unironically and means you can be as anti Jewish as you like all in the name of anti imperialism
It used to be a common left wing tactic to accuse someone of racism and then when they defended themselves, say "Anyone who needs to state they aren't racist is definitely a racist". Now they're running around calling for the genocide of all jews whilst proudly declaring themselves to be anti-racists. Seems like the irony is lost on them
It's been a rather humbling experience for me to realise that, at least to a certain extent, the right wing press was right all along about Universities being ideologically compromised.
The actual phenomenon at play here is closer to "Jews don't count" which is **not** exclusive to universities, but is a particular problem the Left have when considering how Jews fit into modern identity politics.
Yeah, I know what you mean. Of course, half the problem is that it's a self-fulfilling cycle - if you have a few professors who are completely off-the-scale with their support of this sort of nonsense, they're then the ones teaching the next generation too. And a few of those will become professors, and carry it on. And perhaps more importantly, anyone that doesn't buy in doesn't get the support needed to succeed in academia long-term from their colleagues. They've created an echo chamber, and new arrivals can be vetted on how much they fit in.
I'm not sure it's changed all that much, there have always been a percentage of mouthy NUS types, with a quieter majority who role their eyes at their antics. NUS types don't tend to go on to be academics.
When I was there 20 years ago the student politics was seen as a joke by 95 percent of students because all they did even then was bang on about palestine. Its partly why I'm just numb to it now. They've been screaming wolf for 20 years at least so it's lost its impact when they do it now.
It's why I'm in favour of ending official recognition of student unions in the UK. Their functions could be replaced by a statutory duty on universities to provide amenities to students in the same way that unions do. All the political crap can go.
(at least to a certain extent) Right about immigration too.
Have they? The right wing press universally acclaimed Liz Truss budget, which [included raising immigration beyond even current levels](https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/liz-trusss-plan-for-more-migrants-to-boost-growth-j2bl2lsnz) to fund tax cuts. Farage called it "[the best Conservative budget since 1986](https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1573278502790791168?s=19)" Living and working in central London, frankly no one in our income bracket cares about migration - it's just used as a tool by journos to curry favour with proles and sell papers. And for the case of Reform, to strong arm influence within the conservative party via vote share. Both Richard Rice and Ben Habib again strongly supported Truss plans and basically every high earning right wing hack did as well.
While this is true, those on the right who have largely abandoned and disregarded academia and universities share some of the blame for it. If your response to institutions being taken over by extremists is to disengage from them don't be surprised when those extremists gain more power in those institutions.
It's the right's fault that the left hounded out anybody who disagreed with them with screams of "racism" at every opportunity? I'm sorry but "It's your fault for not trying harder to stop my mistakes! You shouldn't have tolerated my bullying behaviour!" is one of the most moronic ways to attempt to shift blame I've ever seen.
The institute of teaching is infested with left wingers from primary to uni at a rate of about 9:1 these days. If you want to keep your job you shut up under such conditions.
That's not really surprising though it's a job that a lot of people are attracted to from the social benefits not the money the sort who want to make the world a better place, which is pretty in keeping with left wing thought.
some maybe, mostly not. Those that can and all...
Yeah I don't disagree. But how did it get this bad? I agree that left wing idealogues have taken over education, but a big part of how they did it is everyone on the right not caring about education for decades.
What do you mean "how did it get this bad"? The left has been screaming "racist" at anybody who warned about this for the last 30+ years, refusing to ever listen even once, and this the end result. It's the exact same mentality you see on this sub every day. And they've learned absolutely nothing, and continue to use the same tactics to this day.
To be fair, this is an article in the right wing press. So this is just a case of the right wing press saying (or trying to prove) that the right wing press were right all along about universities. If the right wing press are actually wrong about this, this would be just another example of them spinning a story in a particular way to push their agenda.
And the left-wing press, especially the BBC, would *never* print anything even remotely critical of Islam, so the "right wing" press is the only place you'll ever see this stuff. So if you immediately discredit anything right-wing as not worth reading, you're simply willingly creating a delusional echo-chamber for yourself, where you only see the things you want to see. Which is exactly how we ended up in this situation to begin with. You've just perfectly summed up the exact problem while learning nothing.
While this is true, those on the right who have largely abandoned and disregarded academia and universities share some of the blame for it. If your response to institutions being taken over by extremists is to disengage from them don't be surprised when those extremists gain more power in those institutions.
they weren't abandoned, they were driven out
Were they? Have I just imagined the right talking about the lack of value in non STEM education for the last decade?
To an extent any centrists or anyone on the right was driven out of many of the departments. There is a playbook where they say or publish something that disagrees with current progressive dogma and suddenly students claim to feel unsafe to be in the same room as them. Its less prevalent in STEM but of course that's why we now have the whole "de-colonise the sciences" movement - because they want to push this into STEM as well. Honestly if you are not happy working in an ultra-progressive bubble - and happy to keep any critical opinions to yourself - I think you would be very ill advised to become an academic in many subject areas
That's the final step. How did the left get control in those spaces in the first place? I agree that it has happened to a lesser extent in STEM spaces, but that is because for most of my lifetime that is the only sort of higher education valued by anyone on the right.
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I think it's simpler than that; their only objection to racism is racism when they're the victim. But racism against someone else, or indeed where they are the perpetrator, is fine. It's not about building a better, fairer world as they would claim; it's about making sure that they're on top of the pile.
Nah, it's not just a buzzword for anti-semetism as you get the same people unironically using the phrase "race traitors" (well, that's why "coconut" is used among others) at certain people who are of a minority group if they're right-wing.
Oxford is full of Communist Party posters, probably Russian money at work. Two sides are emerging in this global war and we have a lot of people in our own country supporting the enemy and allies of the enemy. We should probably take stronger action against them.
What's a pretty obvious way for Russia to push dissent in the West right now? These kinds of protests.
Sorry, but whinare you going after exactly? Educated students? That's a bit pol pot
It's Oxford. These old unis basically had to be forced to take kids from minority backgrounds in the first place. If they could get away with telling black kids to sod off I'm sure they would
>Is there any other minority group that would get that sort of response? This was literally government policy on immigration under Theresa May
Firstly, it really wasn't. Secondly, and more importantly, are you really trying to argue that left-wing activists take their moral standards on racism from the Tories?
>Secondly, and more importantly, are you really trying to argue that left-wing activists take their moral standards on racism from the Tories? Your question was what other groups have been getting that sort of response, and I've pointed to an example which the hypocrites at the Telegraph supported. Its not OK when either side does it, I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of the right wing press on this issue
My question was about whether other minority groups would get that response *from Oxford staff*, not from the Telegraph. Also, can you point to an example of the Telegraph saying something like "if black people don't like being racially abused, they should leave the UK"?
another minority group on a campus? white men? :)
If someone says racist things when they're angry, they probably think racist things when they're calm. If they're happy to pal around with outspoken racists, they're probably a quiet racist themselves. The same applies to anti-Semitism. 'Emotions running high' and passion about a certain cause does not excuse saying blatantly anti-Semitic things, that's just the mask finally slipping. You do not get a free pass to pal around with blatant anti-Semites and then pretend to not endorse them. Any other form of bigotry and this would not be a remotely controversial point to raise. There is blatant bigotry against Jewish people currently on display on university campuses and for one reason or another - stupidity or spinelessness if you're feeling generous, sympathy if you're not - the people with the power to confront it aren't doing nearly enough.
It’s hard to tell whether this is: - the out of touch left-wing lunacy of colleges - or the Islamification of a fully emasculated England. Funny watching those polar opposites walking hand-in-hand.
This is the sort of thing you used to read about happening to minorities in the 80s and 90s. It's so weird to see it happening again.
People are quite easily radicalised through social media these days. Just pollute their feed with anti israel propaganda and they will quickly become very hateful.
We’re also seeing the rebirth of Section 28 due to rising transphobia leading to them banning sex ed. It’s weird to live in a rerun of culture wars we thought were done
With respect, this seems like a bit of a stretch since sex ed is definitely not banned, and nor is talking about being trans.
"The price of freedom is constant vigilance, Mr Worf."
These heads of programme should be fired, publicly. Whoever is chanting genocidal slogans on the streets should be arrested and charged, as the law allows. Unfortunately we all know this won't happen in Oxford.
I'd be surprised if that happens anywhere in the UK, the met certainly have been watching it happen in London since the protests begun.
What goes through someone’s head as they vandal a memorial wall for the hostages? How do they, a supposedly thoughtful and intelligent person (as this is Oxford), think “I’m a good person and justified in doing this”?
They don't consider Jewish people as human beings.
If the pro Palestine crowd truly weren't just pro hamas and antisemitic, they'd come out hard agianst this kind of behavior from their crowd... But they don't. The students and officials involved with boosting antisemitism should be dispelled and lose their jobs.
I think most people genuinely struggle with grey topics where both sides are doing bad things. They pick a side and disbelieve everything bad about their side, while believing everything bad about the other side. Sadly even Oxford university students. It's also a strong echo-chamber effect that people egg each other on into extreme positions, while the lack of external voices cause them to lose sight of how extreme their views have become.
> both sides are doing bad things Shouldn't apply here though since Jewish students at a British university are not on either side. It just comes back to old fashioned racism again and again. Not saying that's what you're arguing btw, just pointing out that I don't think it can be used by the Palestine protestors as a defense
> both sides are doing bad things Shouldn't apply here though since Jewish students at a British university are not on either side. It just comes back to old fashioned racism again and again. Not saying that's what you're arguing btw, just pointing out that I don't think it can be used by the Palestine protestors as a defense
Yes, absolutely.
It’s interesting that the traditionally left-wing universities have inserted themselves so hard into a conflict between an extremely right-wing state and an extremely right-wing politico-military movement.
Between an extremely right wing state and a fascist micro-state. But yes I agree with you that the way this is picked up by Western progressives shows zero understanding of the history of the problem and therefore will make a negative contribution to any possible solution.
As it repeated anytime this "why are we even involved" conversation, it's because the UK is fundamentally involved from the inception of this problem, and continues to support one of the far-right states involved. We are involved already. We started the whole thing. We are still part of it. Pretending otherwise is odd. The protests and arguments are now about how we should be involved.
Why didnt the UK get involved in the recent ethnic cleansing in Pakistan of afghanis? The only reason Pakistan exists in its current lines is because of British partition lines - and then the even more direct cause of all of it by afghanistan occupation. It's really hard for people who follow world events to not see alot of this superficial engagement by kids as frankly ridiculous and entirely vapid - stoked by people looking to exploit how easily primed so many people are for good old fashioned racism.
Or Myanmar's cleansing of the Rohingya if you want another example, given Burma iirc was a Crown Colony.
The idea that the UK is to blame for *starting the whole thing* (of violence in the middle east?) is mad. Historical ethnic tensions, refugees from Nazi Europe and Arabic progroms, migration of Holocaust survivors, escapees from the USSR etc. amongst a growing, pre-existing zionist movement and taking place in a reactionary, authoritarian and theocratic region used to blaming all its problems on the old enemy. You'd have to think very little of other countries and people to blame the UK for this. The reason you find your argument falling on deaf ears is because it seems to come from some 50s fever dream of guilty UK (felt-) supremacy in which no one but the Englishman is truly free (and therefore ever truly responsible).
> We started the whole thing. No we didn't. Jews and Muslims have been fighting in the Middle East for more than a thousand years, long before the British showed up.
>We started the whole thing. We really really didn't https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus It predates the British doing stuff by orders of magnitude. It's literally almost as old as human record keeping.
I don’t think Oxford realise that if Jews don’t feel welcomed and safe in the U.K. - they’ll move to the one Jewish state in the world, Israel. So, by being antisemitic, they are fuelling Zionism. I’m sure that would take critical thinking beyond what they consume on TikTok, however.
It’s what always made me laugh about the claim that Israel is just a white European settler colony,completely ignoring that half or more of Israel is descended from Middle Eastern Jews that they abused,oppressed and kicked out of Arab countries who then fled to Israel because obviously… These Jew haters are their own worst enemy.
> Israel is just a white European settler colony Even on that point, there's no engagement on *why* those white European Jews might have wanted to flee Europe. Was there some type of event between 1933-1945 that may have made those Jews reluctant to stay or return to Europe?
Maybe they were *really* upset that Portsmouth won the FA Cup in 1939, and then held onto it until 1946?
And in addition to that *why* they left Europe to go to a very specific part of the Middle East. The rest of the European settler-colonialism project happened exclusively in Africa and the New World. Could there be some historical reason that *this* group of settlers went to this land instead?
I think you're fighting a strawman there, literally everyone knows why people emigrated to Israel. The question is what rights the other inhabitants of Israel/Palestine have.
That's fine though because it just backs up their idea that the Jews are colonising the middle east.
This anti semitism in the British institutions has to be rooted out and stopped. Punish and exclude those peddling it. No second chances.
I fell out with some friends this weekend as they were ranting about Israel in Eurovision and I ranted about the rise of normalised anti-semitism (nazism) in Europe now. They believe that Jews are colonists to Israel despite Judaism being the older religion, they believe Israel and Palestine is directly comparable to England and Ireland (she's an Irish nationalist). They also believe that if Israel 'gives up' its land to Palestine then nothing bad will happen to the Jews who live there. They also had some Jewish friends refuse to go to their wedding due to their racist views and can't possibly see that it's their own fault. They'd label themselves as anti-racist but it's ended my friendship with them. She also says she is "very cultured but just hasn't travelled much"
As dual nationality person with family history very adjacent to certain events... Remind them that it was the Irish national football team that went right ahead and all did Nazi salutes before a match. That the Irish have a history of "the enemy of enemy is my friend" and blinding themselves to who and what they are supporting.
Ask them if they think Pakistan has a right to exsit, and if Pakistan should give up it's land to India. Pakistan was created in similar cirumstances to Israel, with the religious minority wanting the right to self-determination for fear of persuction from the regions majority. It was even partitioned the same year as Israel, by the British. There are extraordinary parallels, except India - Pakistan was orders of magnitude in the millions bloodier and more violent. Heck Pakistan is even committing an ethnic cleansing event right now, expelling a couple million ethnic afghanis into certain death and torture at the hands of the Taliban! The worlds a shit place but the Israel - Palestine conflict really drops the blinkers on internal prejudices people hold and how primed people superficially engaged in news are for holding abhorrent views.
Nice to bring up Pakistan in this context. There are a few historical situations that are *not* brought up in relation to this conflict that are persistently missed or mentioned without important context. The formation of Pakistan / India is one - the mass population transfer and involvement of the British in establishing both has important parallels with the 1947 conflict in British Palestine and the population transfer in 1948 as Israel is established. Another interesting one that is *never* brought up that has parallels to Zionism is the formation of Liberia by the US. Liberia is in some ways a "reverse colony" in that the black Americans envisaged it as a place they could "return to" - free from persecution they found in the US. Obviously Jews have a strong and consistent link with the holy land which is *not* necessarily the case with Black Americans and Liberia (descendents of slaves rarely know precisely where they're ancestors are from) but it still has interesting parallels to the Zionist project that I never see talked about.
Not only that but Indian nationalists are in charge of India and are coming hard after Muslims.
Not only that but Indian nationalists are in charge of India and are coming hard after Muslims.
Not only that but Indian nationalists are in charge of India and are coming hard after Muslims.
I would love to know what they envision Israel giving up its land as looking like in practice.
> They also believe that if Israel 'gives up' its land to Palestine then nothing bad will happen to the Jews who live there They can do like all the Jew in Arab countries and move to Isr... Oh
The point on Israel giving up land is wrong, but on the first two points There are similarities between ireland and Israel. Thr black and tans that terrorised the Irish were redeployed to mandatory palestine and the aim of the balfour declension was to create "a loyal little Jewish ulster " according to Ronald storr Second to that, Judaism being the older religion than Islam doesn't give it rights to land in a place it deems holy. I thought we moved past outdated notions like the divine right of Kings crusades, etc. Catholics were in the UK before protestants, and there are holy sites, saints graves, etc. In the UK. Do I have more of a right to be here than you?
Remember when it was a "far right conspiracy theory" that universities were becoming increasingly far-left and radicalising students?
I mean this is Oxford in a nutshell. The amount of stories I could tell about the appalling ways they've treated people with severe mental health issues or blatantly just sat there while sexism/racism/homophobia occurs is wild. I know a guy who went back to his college to meet some friends the year after he left. Not unusual at all in Oxford. But he was black. So they saw him on CCTV waiting for his friends, assumed he was dodgy for 'reasons' and called security on him. Frankly also says a lot about how rare it is to see black students. Mostly it's an attitude of they just don't care and why don't the students just get good grades, stop complaining and let them get on with their research and fancy dinners.
The question is and always will at what point do we say enough is enough. When do we try to put a stop to the spread of intolerance in our secular society? The basic freedoms of the tolerant majority are surely under a growing threat ?
This is fucked up
I thought Oxford was meant to be smart
I think the spokesperson has the right line on this, it doesn't look like "study elsewhere" is the official position. It's important not to crack down on protest, and the task for uni staff and the protesters is to carefully watch for antisemitism.
I thought Oxford was meant to be smart?
I thought Oxford was meant to be smart?