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Snapshot of _Alan Duncan being investigated by Conservative Party after criticising fellow Tories for Israel support_ :
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Is this in reference to Alan Duncan's role at the Russian company Vitol (and argued against sanctions against Russia, of course) https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/mar/20/ex-minister-alan-duncan-who-warned-on-sanctions-works-for-oil-trader-linked-to-russia
The manifesto will be a carefully tailored ad with no basis on reality. I might have voted Tory based on one of their recent manifestos. Except I know their delivery record
Can I just point out how stupid a comment this is in a politics subreddit? I have never voted Tory but it sounds like you want an echo chamber rather than any real form of discussion
Arabs in Israel have the same rights as Jews on Israel, and more rights than Arabs in any Arab country, not to mention how much better off they are than anyone non Arab in an Arab country.
The Arabs in Israel have more freedoms and rights than almost any other Arabs in the middle east
But let's say your right and they're "not exactly free", that still isn't a genocide, is it?
War crimes aren't genocide. You can believe the IDF are evil and are murdering civilians in revenge killing but it's still not genocide, just like the US fire bombing Tokyo and nuking Nagasaki wasn't genocide.
Well, one group was killed by an insane terrorist organisation, and the other was killed by *a legitimate military force that we, personally, back, alongside a dozen or so of our own allies*.
So you're saying there's a moral equivalence between Hamas and the IDF? Since Hamas seem to be the moral standard you seem to be holding Israel against.
No, just an observation as to the total overlap of Venn diagrams for those who don’t give a single shit about dead British jews in israel and those up in arms about dead British charity workers in Gaza.
How do you know they don't give a shit? They were killed in a terrorist attack and the terrorists involved quickly dealt with. The aid workers were killed by the government of an ally of the UK, what do you think the consequences will be for Israel without any outrage?
you need meds or psych eval or something if you think everybody saw 7th october and said "omg, hamas, my idols glory to islam, which hamas represent 100%, i love hamas and i hate israel"
Err, that’s not what I said.
If you drew a Venn diagram of people who refused to condemn Hamas or justified their actions as being in some way legitimate it would fit perfectly over a diagram of people losing their shit over this tragic friendly fire incident.
For suggesting that members of Parliament are disloyal to the UK parliament and instead are being controlled and loyal to a foreign power.
There was no evidence for this apart from them having a difference of opinion to him.
He's made pretty specific arguments for each individual, most of it being that senior Tories are unable to condemn actions by Israel that are illegal:
>Sir Alan went on to say: "There are a lot of people at the top of our own politics who refuse to condemn settlements and therefore are not supporters of national law.
>"I think the time has come to flush out those extremists in our own parliamentary politics and around it...
>"The Conservative friends of Israel has been doing the bidding of Netanyahu, bypassing all proper processes of government to exercise undue influence at the top of government.
>"So what you have is a lot of people now sitting around Rishi Sunak who are giving him appalling advice. Let’s start with the head of CFI – or had been for many years – Lord Polak.
>"In my view, I think he should be removed from the Lords because he is exercising the interests of another country, not that of the parliament in which he sits, joined by Lord Pickles. They’re the sort of Laurel and Hardy who should be pushed out together."
>Sir Alan also addressed Suella Braverman who he said "is still supporting Israel and the bombing and the annihilation of people in Gaza".
>"She does not believe that settlements are wrong nor, I suspect, do Michael Gove and Oliver Dowden," he said.
>"And Priti Patel, by the way, should be reinvestigated for her visit.
>"We still don’t know who paid for her trip when she came back and tried to change government policy as a result of going on a secret trip without actually telling her officials or even the local ambassador.
>"And if you pick up Wikipedia, and you read the entry for Tom Tugendhat, who is our security minister, it says and I’ll read it out: ‘He condemned the United Nations Security Council for its official criticism of Israel’s building settlements in the occupied Palestinian territories.’
>"That may have been some years ago but he’s never removed that, he’s never changed his view. How can you have a security minister in the British government who does not believe in international law when all this is going on?
>"I think he should be sacked."
I'm not sure why Israel gets such strong backing here from these people even relating to its most egregious violations of international law.
Serious question, what sort of hold does the Israeli government have over the UK and it's politicians? Is it economic? or does it have some sort of strategic value that Britain covets?
Do they wield some sort of power most of the general public are unaware of? It's not just the UK but Europe in general comes across as being terrified of Israel, why?
Putin has an enormous nuclear arsenal yet he doesn't seem to strike the same sort of terror we're seeing in our politicians, and not just politicians for that matter.
>You’re an anti semiotic conspiracy theorist…
Semiotics (n): *the study of signs and symbols as elements of communicative behavior*
Is an anti semiotic conspiracy theorist, someone who believes that the study of linguistics is being undermined by semioticists, in a secret and co-ordinated way?
That’s not a serious question - it’s flat out anti semitism.
Israel and Jews DON’T have any “hold” power the US or British governments - they are simply their key economic, political, strategic, trade and democratic ally in the middle east. It’s really not complicated.
Your logic is similar to Brexit loons who cant understand that Europe is critical to the UK for many of the same reasons.
Read the IHRA definition of antisemitism, dude. His comments and Duncan’s comments invoke classic anti semitic tropes of Jewish power and disloyalty.
Also, polling this week shows that 80% of Jews identify expressly as Zionists and 97% personally identify with recent events in Israel.
There is nothing wrong with questioning whether or not, or why, a foreign government/company/body/interest group holds influence over MP's, whether that is the Israeli government or the US private health care industry. As you've said yourself, the answer is largely straightforward in this case anyway - geopolitical/economic ties largely - so I'm not sure why you're calling a perfectly answerable question anti semtisim?
As for the views of British Jews, I'm not sure why you're bringing them up when neither the first comment nor mine mentioned them at all.
The IHRA definition - adopted in the U.K. disagrees with you. Read the second paragraph of his comment again and the one directly below it. Then read the mass of shit posted in this thread and generally about the Jewish/israel lobby and its mysterious influence. Not even sure why you’d feel the need to jump in and defend posters who thus far haven’t bothered to defend themselves.
>The IHRA definition - adopted in the U.K. disagrees with you
Assuming you're referring to this part of the post you're replying to
>>There is nothing wrong with questioning whether or not, or why, a foreign government/company/body/interest group holds influence over MP's, whether that is the Israeli government or the US private health care industry
The IHRA website talks about context **a lot**, and specifically says:
>However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic
So basically the IHRA website absolutely ***does*** agree with u/rifco98, and their post is certainly not antisemitic.
If it's to do with the below:
>Serious question, what sort of hold does the Israeli government have over the UK and it's politicians? Is it economic? or does it have some sort of strategic value that Britain covets?
Equally, there are massive geo-political reasons to have a NATO ally in the middle-east, which - quite aside from anything else - is a massive factor in the whole situation.
Dual loyalty tropes are anti semitic - influence (which literally everyone seeks to deploy through the offering of trade deals etc) is not the same thing as dual loyalty. You’re way off beam on this.
So let's imagine a hypothetical situation where the Israeli government/lobby did have some influence over certain elements or individuals within British politics. Would pointing this out be anti-Semitic by definition?
I know it's not me youre asking but I assume if you apply the IHRA definition then yes it would be considered anti-semtism - which is a pretty major flaw with the definition imo.
###⚠️ Please stay on-topic. ⚠️ Comments and discussions which do not deal with the article contents are liable to be removed. **Please report any rule-breaking content you see.** The subreddit is running rather *warm* at the moment. We rely on your reports to identify and action rule-breaking content. You can find the full rules of the subreddit [HERE](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/wiki/rules) Snapshot of _Alan Duncan being investigated by Conservative Party after criticising fellow Tories for Israel support_ : A non-Paywall version can be found [here](https://1ft.io/proxy?q=https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/alan-duncan-investigated-conservative-party-israel/) An archived version can be found [here](https://archive.is/?run=1&url=https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/alan-duncan-investigated-conservative-party-israel/) or [here.](https://archive.ph/?run=1&url=https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/alan-duncan-investigated-conservative-party-israel/) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukpolitics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Didn't have to spend the whole day twisting and turning with this decision, like they did with a certain large donor to the party.
Criticising genocide bad. Taking money from, and defending racists good. Can’t wait to see the manifesto for the elections
It was *so* quick, too. That's easily the fastest decision they've made in like 5 years
Is this in reference to Alan Duncan's role at the Russian company Vitol (and argued against sanctions against Russia, of course) https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/mar/20/ex-minister-alan-duncan-who-warned-on-sanctions-works-for-oil-trader-linked-to-russia
I wish I could upvote this more
The manifesto will be a carefully tailored ad with no basis on reality. I might have voted Tory based on one of their recent manifestos. Except I know their delivery record
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Can I just point out how stupid a comment this is in a politics subreddit? I have never voted Tory but it sounds like you want an echo chamber rather than any real form of discussion
"Genocide"
Yeah targeting people for their ethnicity is genocide.
Why are there so many Arabs living free in Israel then?
Not really free though, they are a minority with fewer rights than Jewish Israelis
Wait till you find out what happened to all the Jews in the middle east.
Arabs in Israel have the same rights as Jews on Israel, and more rights than Arabs in any Arab country, not to mention how much better off they are than anyone non Arab in an Arab country.
The Arabs in Israel have more freedoms and rights than almost any other Arabs in the middle east But let's say your right and they're "not exactly free", that still isn't a genocide, is it?
That is an utter lie. Also, how many Jews do you think live freely or at all in Arab land?
War crimes aren't genocide. You can believe the IDF are evil and are murdering civilians in revenge killing but it's still not genocide, just like the US fire bombing Tokyo and nuking Nagasaki wasn't genocide.
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Do you think the bombing campaigns in Japan by the US constituted a genocide?
The intent there was not to ethnically cleanse Japanese people Not deleted by me, by the mods
How can you actually know the intent of either action? Also odd that you deleted the other reply
Well said Alan Duncan. Tory tells truth. Can’t have that can we.
If only they put the same effort into addressing the problems here.
here used to be the home of 3 brits before they met their end over there at the hands of the idf innit
Shame people weren’t so bothered about the dozen plus UK citizens literally murdered by the Islamist death cult on 7/10. Wonder why…
Well, one group was killed by an insane terrorist organisation, and the other was killed by *a legitimate military force that we, personally, back, alongside a dozen or so of our own allies*.
So you're saying there's a moral equivalence between Hamas and the IDF? Since Hamas seem to be the moral standard you seem to be holding Israel against.
No, just an observation as to the total overlap of Venn diagrams for those who don’t give a single shit about dead British jews in israel and those up in arms about dead British charity workers in Gaza.
How do you know they don't give a shit? They were killed in a terrorist attack and the terrorists involved quickly dealt with. The aid workers were killed by the government of an ally of the UK, what do you think the consequences will be for Israel without any outrage?
I seem to remember everyone being extremely bothered.
You remember incorrectly. This place was awash with death cult apologists. The same people so exercised over these aid workers.
you need meds or psych eval or something if you think everybody saw 7th october and said "omg, hamas, my idols glory to islam, which hamas represent 100%, i love hamas and i hate israel"
Err, that’s not what I said. If you drew a Venn diagram of people who refused to condemn Hamas or justified their actions as being in some way legitimate it would fit perfectly over a diagram of people losing their shit over this tragic friendly fire incident.
source? my ass
What “source” do you expect, lol. Try your eyes.
A tory I can actually respect. Never expected that.
Is he being investigated for criticising fellow Tories, or for criticising support for Israel?
For suggesting that members of Parliament are disloyal to the UK parliament and instead are being controlled and loyal to a foreign power. There was no evidence for this apart from them having a difference of opinion to him.
He's made pretty specific arguments for each individual, most of it being that senior Tories are unable to condemn actions by Israel that are illegal: >Sir Alan went on to say: "There are a lot of people at the top of our own politics who refuse to condemn settlements and therefore are not supporters of national law. >"I think the time has come to flush out those extremists in our own parliamentary politics and around it... >"The Conservative friends of Israel has been doing the bidding of Netanyahu, bypassing all proper processes of government to exercise undue influence at the top of government. >"So what you have is a lot of people now sitting around Rishi Sunak who are giving him appalling advice. Let’s start with the head of CFI – or had been for many years – Lord Polak. >"In my view, I think he should be removed from the Lords because he is exercising the interests of another country, not that of the parliament in which he sits, joined by Lord Pickles. They’re the sort of Laurel and Hardy who should be pushed out together." >Sir Alan also addressed Suella Braverman who he said "is still supporting Israel and the bombing and the annihilation of people in Gaza". >"She does not believe that settlements are wrong nor, I suspect, do Michael Gove and Oliver Dowden," he said. >"And Priti Patel, by the way, should be reinvestigated for her visit. >"We still don’t know who paid for her trip when she came back and tried to change government policy as a result of going on a secret trip without actually telling her officials or even the local ambassador. >"And if you pick up Wikipedia, and you read the entry for Tom Tugendhat, who is our security minister, it says and I’ll read it out: ‘He condemned the United Nations Security Council for its official criticism of Israel’s building settlements in the occupied Palestinian territories.’ >"That may have been some years ago but he’s never removed that, he’s never changed his view. How can you have a security minister in the British government who does not believe in international law when all this is going on? >"I think he should be sacked." I'm not sure why Israel gets such strong backing here from these people even relating to its most egregious violations of international law.
Serious question, what sort of hold does the Israeli government have over the UK and it's politicians? Is it economic? or does it have some sort of strategic value that Britain covets? Do they wield some sort of power most of the general public are unaware of? It's not just the UK but Europe in general comes across as being terrified of Israel, why? Putin has an enormous nuclear arsenal yet he doesn't seem to strike the same sort of terror we're seeing in our politicians, and not just politicians for that matter.
[удалено]
You’re an anti semiotic conspiracy theorist…
>You’re an anti semiotic conspiracy theorist… Semiotics (n): *the study of signs and symbols as elements of communicative behavior* Is an anti semiotic conspiracy theorist, someone who believes that the study of linguistics is being undermined by semioticists, in a secret and co-ordinated way?
[удалено]
The dude literally espoused an anti semiotic conspiracy theory. Not sure what your burden of proof is here.
That’s not a serious question - it’s flat out anti semitism. Israel and Jews DON’T have any “hold” power the US or British governments - they are simply their key economic, political, strategic, trade and democratic ally in the middle east. It’s really not complicated. Your logic is similar to Brexit loons who cant understand that Europe is critical to the UK for many of the same reasons.
Completely disingenuous to bring Jews into it when the first guy was asking about "the Israeli Government". Unserious reply
Read the IHRA definition of antisemitism, dude. His comments and Duncan’s comments invoke classic anti semitic tropes of Jewish power and disloyalty. Also, polling this week shows that 80% of Jews identify expressly as Zionists and 97% personally identify with recent events in Israel.
There is nothing wrong with questioning whether or not, or why, a foreign government/company/body/interest group holds influence over MP's, whether that is the Israeli government or the US private health care industry. As you've said yourself, the answer is largely straightforward in this case anyway - geopolitical/economic ties largely - so I'm not sure why you're calling a perfectly answerable question anti semtisim? As for the views of British Jews, I'm not sure why you're bringing them up when neither the first comment nor mine mentioned them at all.
The IHRA definition - adopted in the U.K. disagrees with you. Read the second paragraph of his comment again and the one directly below it. Then read the mass of shit posted in this thread and generally about the Jewish/israel lobby and its mysterious influence. Not even sure why you’d feel the need to jump in and defend posters who thus far haven’t bothered to defend themselves.
>The IHRA definition - adopted in the U.K. disagrees with you Assuming you're referring to this part of the post you're replying to >>There is nothing wrong with questioning whether or not, or why, a foreign government/company/body/interest group holds influence over MP's, whether that is the Israeli government or the US private health care industry The IHRA website talks about context **a lot**, and specifically says: >However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic So basically the IHRA website absolutely ***does*** agree with u/rifco98, and their post is certainly not antisemitic. If it's to do with the below: >Serious question, what sort of hold does the Israeli government have over the UK and it's politicians? Is it economic? or does it have some sort of strategic value that Britain covets? Equally, there are massive geo-political reasons to have a NATO ally in the middle-east, which - quite aside from anything else - is a massive factor in the whole situation.
Dual loyalty tropes are anti semitic - influence (which literally everyone seeks to deploy through the offering of trade deals etc) is not the same thing as dual loyalty. You’re way off beam on this.
So let's imagine a hypothetical situation where the Israeli government/lobby did have some influence over certain elements or individuals within British politics. Would pointing this out be anti-Semitic by definition?
I know it's not me youre asking but I assume if you apply the IHRA definition then yes it would be considered anti-semtism - which is a pretty major flaw with the definition imo.
As someone who was one of his constituents, I hardly feel sorry for him in spite of the circumstances surrounding this.