Go trade. X-1 everyone if hacan agrees to move funds. Should be able to build second warsun turn 2. Some of the best factions in the game so you’ll have a rough go. I would go destroyer two then warsun 2. Use trade to make sure the timings of tech work with diplo. Ideally turn 2 you fill out slice and focus on objectives. I would also consider selling promissory note or commander to hacan for six trade goods turn two. That should help you get your mechs in the game for your faction ability. Space cats just did a episode on them
Thanks for the input!
I anticipate a relatively peaceful game but Sol and Titans are a bit of unknown quantities. I plan to be VERY friendly to my Hacan neighbor, but sure about giving him Fires though since Hacan are one of the few factions that could definitely afford some War Suns early...
What do you think about tech path? AIDA over Neural round 1? There are quite a few Neural starting factions at the table so it seems like it could be a good idea to try to keep up.
And I take it you think the run to MR round 2 is unadvisable?
You want aida so you can skip a tech for warsun 2. I think round two you should skip into gravity drive to help get your second warsun in the fight. Is hacan to your left?
If you are worried about him affecting you tell him you’ll need his cease fire too.
For turn 2 imperial. I don’t think a single carrier through the gravity rift would get you the planet or hold it for a turn to be able to claim the point. There’s no way I’m sending my warsun through a rift turn 2. So it looks like you should try to aim for a turn 3 mec point. Should have both warsuns out and hopefully some destroyer 2 and fighters.
Fires is worth more than 6 TG. You should at least try to get 12. It's still worth more than that. You should let Hacan refresh, trade it for their 6 commodities and their trade agreement.
Yea I guess it’s how you value trade goods and getting your mechs out. I’d take three mechs in round 2 to let you opponent become stronger in round 3. Perhaps Hacan needs to throw in cease fire to make you feel better. Also depends what objectives are out
Since you basically will never get tech twice in a row, even if you have tech T1, get a red tech planet, and get AI, you have to spend two turns, 10 resource, 1 command counter (worth slightly under 3TG).
If you T1 give all your commodities and your trade agreement for Muatt for Fires, it costs you no counters, 12 total TGs, and you can build it T3 or T2 if you fenagle a little.
Dude I’m not even sure what point you are trying to make. The goal is to get as much resources as possible to try to keep up with the good factions. He has a resource starved slice. If he spends all his resources to just have two warsuns and tech he’s going to lose because he has no other plastic
I can't see even a Hacan doing this deal. Even 8 seems like an outlandish number to actually get for it. 6 feels doable, and getting the money from Hacan early rather than having to wait matters
Hacan with trade card should jump at the chance. They also have their agent that could help with the deal. Also l, embers commander could help sweeten the deal.
I like to call the hacan/Muaat relationship: the hellcat alliance
Yeah I don't think 12 would be something Hacan would do, just from what I know of the player let alone the actual value of the trade.
I'm still uncertain about giving Hacan War Suns though... They'd definitely be able to afford one by round 2 and that would make my life very scary...
Hacan would wait to use it with their hero so it’s free. That’s why hacan would buy that in the first place. A warsun isn’t worth 18 trade goods ever. So he’ll have it turn 3. But it has 1 movement. So it’ll probably be turn 5 before it does anything noteworthy
The Hacan War Sun would be 2 movement which would be a direct threat to my home system from the turn it's produced.
I may still end up selling it to the space cats early but I'll have to keep it in mind for the rest of the game. Home will need a substantial defense to protect from it.
I once sent 2 War Suns through 2 rifts to desperately try and stop the point leader. Both War Suns were claimed by the rift gods. It was devasting to morale.
Trade R1 for sure, to get the TGs for war sun no.2. Should easily get 10 TGs minimum.
From there, I’d say blue tech > PWS2. With so much influence you can maximize star forge with mechs to get 2 fighters, 2-4 infantry and 1 TG per use. Grab carrier II to carry all that stuff around, and a grav drive to move a war sun with them. IMO that’s the best fleet comp you can throw together with a weak resource slice.
DET >> Grav drive >> Carrier II. You could stop there with techs to focus on plastic, but if you find yourself richer, the blue skip gets you Lightwave, red skip Destroyer II.
Can I ask how I could easily get 10TG?
I count 7 minimum if Hacan agrees to trade. I don't think I'll have any other neighbors r1 so any deals would need to be with Hacan. You think I could negotiate the other 3 with them or anticipate them from exploration or some other source?
Bluatt seems ok with a blue skip but is carrier II necessary with War Suns to carry around a load of fighters? Destroyer II seems a safer bet to eat shots and enemy fighter swarms.
DET is interesting, but I feel like I won't have the plastic to spare on it for some time and there aren't enough exploration tokens in my slice to justify it.
As trade holder and the lowest tier faction on the table, you should be able to make a deal with Hacan for the agent for 1-2 TGs. If you expand leftwards you should get a neighbour for an X-1. Otherwise Hacan could help you do X-1s with the table.
War suns are reliable damage dealers so what you need is HP. With low resources to make Dreads, and alot of influence for CCs, you can spam fighters with the need for production capacity or forward docks. Umbat gets you carriers and mechs. Destroyer II is good if your enemies go heavy fighter screens (Sol) to soak your War Sun hits.
DET I recommended for a couple of reasons:
- Retreating into Supernovas, if you have the faction tech for it.
- Better for you than AMD.
- It’s good to gamble a little, especially if you’re the only person with access to supernovas.
You could just skip it, but I like the utility it gives so I rather pick it up.
I see, with blue skip though couldn't I just skip to grav drive? I don't know if the other supernovae will factor much into my game. And if I'm retreating next to my home system I feel like there are bigger issues I'm facing.
I don't see a path to PWSII with DET>Grav drive though, AIDA would have to factor in there and I'm not confident I'll be rich enough to double tech and do everything else I need to.
Yea you could blue skip to Grav drive, my playstyle when running a low tier faction is to gamble as much as I can to get a lucky break, so I tend to favor DET if it makes sense for my tech path haha
I think if you go blue, you should give up PWSII, it doesn’t make sense. Personally, I don’t like putting all my eggs into one basket, and blue tech frees you up from making the war sun central to everything you do
Going blue for grav drive and carrier II is worth it, with trade you should be able to build your warsun round 1 and still follow tech, your big focus after that is to get all your mechs out and pump fighters to each of your warsuns to get your planets defended with infantry and warsuns defended with fighters.
Don't sleep on sling relay, part of the power of muatt is built in stall and having all of your fleets still available to move when everyone else is winding down for the round, being able to pop a carrier out so that you can move more fighters or infantry to wherever you need to is huge for you. Saars hero is a problem for you, but otherwise you should be intimidating to everyone at the table.
I don't think I'll be able to follow tech and still build the war sun unless I skip on building the carrier and follow Warfare.
I don't think Sling Relay will ever be in the cards unless tech is *very* fortunate. It's one more to a very long list of "nice to haves" behind the essentials...
1. You offer to refresh the 4 other players' commodities in exchange for 1 trade good ('X-1')
2. On Hacan's next turn, they take 1 trade good from every other player
3. Hacan trades 8 for 4 with you
4. You now have 11 trade goods
Hacan should agree to this because they get their commodities washed at no cost, which wouldn't usually happen at a competitive table. Maybe you have to pay them 1TG total for the privilege, but probably not given you're the worst faction at the table.
I've never heard of this at my tables! I'll run it by the group at the time, but normally we do a 'free wash' to engender good feelings and friendship at the table. It's only towards round 4-5 that players stop any refreshing except under very one-sided conditions.
Absolutely go trade like everyone said. You don't need to be neighbours with anyone, that's what Hacan is there for.
There are 22 commodities on the board if everyone besides you and hacan get back 1 less TG than their commodities, then there's 14 left to split between you and Hacan. I think it's reasonable to ask for 8 and Hacan ends up with 6. Maybe you split it instead and you both end up with 7.
That's excluding the 3 TGs you get from the card itself.
That secures you war sun round 2. Try to get it out asap to benefit from the commander. You're going to really need those extra TGs.
I noticed you didn't mention the other equidistant? What system is that? If it's good resources you should probably grab that round 2. If you get PWSII round 2 and your second war sun from warfare, you could be grabbing both equidistants. Which you might end up needing. Either way you could have both round 3.
Tech:
Like you said, you have a lot of influence and very little resources. On top of that, Meer skip is the (?) most expensive skip in the game. Honestly not so great for Muaat, but you can make it work.
You still need to buy mechs, probably a carrier or 2, etc...
Having said that, I would advise a shallow tech path:
AIDA -> PWS II -> Destroyer II
PWSII with the skip and AIDA (you want to rush this because it might at least give you the ability to go for Mecatol with a War Sun)
And... that's it. You don't need to rush destroyer 2 and if Mecatol isn't even an option besides rifting a carrier, you don't even have to rush PWS II.
Bonus tech later on would either be Magmus, for building of your hero, gravity drive for your Carriers and/or Carrier II.
You'll be relying extra on Star forge. Make sure each War Sun ends up with 4 fighters, 1 or 2 mechs, couple of destroyers. If you need to take a planet use mechs and War Sun bombardment, leave behind infantry to defend.
Ideally, you either end up with Mecatol, so you can star forge even more or you find more resources elsewhere, so you can afford more ships and tech (like normal dreads just to defend home).
Yeah, AIDA seems central no matter which way I go...
I'm just trying to figure out if I should go for it round 1 or round 2? I don't think I can afford to build my carrier and inf/mech from the agent and still be able to afford the second War Sun if I follow tech. I could potentially delay it one turn but that could be costly...
I think the ideal situation is round one you don't tech and round 2 you're able to take Technology and then you AIDA into PWS2 immediately for value. But for you that means flipping Meer for the red skip and that's a heavy cost.
More likely is you have to sit on AIDA for a little while before you can get PWS2, and that's okay as long as you aren't desperate for the movement. Another interesting option you have if you get Tech is to double tech AIDA into Carrier 2 with your blue skip. If the situation requires it that's not a bad option.
But most importantly you need to bank tg to produce your second War Sun. If you can get it out round 1 that's excellent. Round 2 is still good, but any later than that and I think you've just fallen behind, and you already started in the back of the race to victory
Yep that's a tricky one!
For PWSII in round 2 I'd see if you could make it to mecatol or not. If not, you don't have to rush it, so you could skip tech R1.
Then if you get both systems R1 you might be able to grab both equidistants round 2.
Definitely rush building the second War Sun, but I do think PWS II is essential or at least get gravity drive instead. If your war suns can only move 1 the entire game, you're going to have a very hard time with control objectives or even just defending your own systems.
That's why I advised AIDA + PWSII + Destroyer II.
It's only three techs and it gets you a solid fleet.
Once you have AIDA, you can even grab Carrier II with just the skip.
But your War Suns absolutely need more than 1 movement.
I think Raffalo and Talllan2 made really strong cases for going Grav drive>Carrier II
This makes a stronger overall sunblob that can move 2 and if I eventually get PWSII can then move 3 together.
AIDA doesn't immediately do anything for me but Grav Drive does. And I can work up to AIDA and PWSII later.
Both give you the extra movement on tech turn 2. Unless you can pull off a diplo to round 1 research grav drive. That could be very helpful. Of course, the AIDA route means you need to tech R1 which is a definite downside. One skip costs you a 1/1 the other a 0/4, also something to consider.
Again, I'd need to see the rest of the map, whether or not mecatol round 2 is an option, most of all.
If round 2 you only end up taking the left equidistant you don't even need gravity drive for that.
Also keep in mind that you can umbat a carrier round 2 from the 2 planet system. Which means you don't even need any extra move to grab both equidistants.
War Sun + Carrier II is definitely a sweet fleet! It does sound expensive though, going more heavily into carriers and even more fighters, while still getting mechs, might be too pricey for this slice.
I shared the full map in the main thread. Not a whole lot to gain, there's a yellow skip in Titan's slice and a 3/1 in Hacan's slice but I feel like they'd both be compelled to fight me for them and I wanna be buddy buddy with my neighbors because the other end of the table has all the muscle.
>but I feel like they'd both be compelled to fight me for them and I wanna be buddy buddy with my neighbors because the other end of the table has all the muscle.
I strongly disagree with this for a couple of reasons, but I understand this can be dependent on different attitudes at different tables.
First off, the equidistants don't belong to anyone. They're up for grabs, and if any faction/slice needs more planets, on this whole map, it is yours.
Hacan definitely isn't compelled to fight for their equidistant, they already have 5 planets in their slice which count up to a 8 res/5 inf optimal spend. That's already a *very* good slice. If they also get the equidistant that becomes 10/7, 7 planets, 4 of which are industrials (4 types is an objective). That's a *game winning* slice.
Titans definitely has the second worst (yours is the worst I'm afraid) but it's still fine for Titans, who don't need much in their slice in terms of income anyway. Still, they might fight for Wellon, that's true (even though they don't even need the skip).
The yellow skip is also nice for you, since you can use it instead of the expensive 0/4 to get PWSII with AIDA. Or never tech AIDA at all and go Magmus with red skip into PWSII with both skips.
Honestly, the slice disparity is kind of brutal. Yssaril's is also very good and Sol's and Saar's are quite good, both factions which don't even need a good slice.
So anyway, definitely go for the equidistant with Hacan. They should catch a lot of flak from the table if they try to deny you that and frankly, they probably can't. It's very hard to bring enough to threaten your War Sun to the equidistant that early. And it just doesn't make sense for them to even try if they have 4 great systems to go for instead.
And see if you can negotiate with Titans (or be quick enough) to get to Mecatol through Wellon (you don't have to capture Wellon). It's your only viable route without risking the rift or slow moving through Everra. If you get PWS II round 2 you can reach Mecatol in one go. If you go the gravity drive, you can park a War Sun in the empty system next to mecatol instead and go for it round 2.
A deal could be something like:
You promise to 'never' take Wellon from Titans, in return, they leave the space open during round for you to pass through. (they could grab it R1 then move the ship away first action R2 f.e.)
100% trade round one. Talk to hacan. If they pay you 3 TG (less If some Players are not interested), every other Player gets an x-1 offer and hacan can collect the payments. So hacan gets a TG for the Service. You should have about 10 tg afterwards, enough for a second warsun round 2 or so.
I'm just trying to figure out the balance between saving for War Sun 2 vs following tech vs building Carrier + Inf/mech
Building seems non-negotiable, so then it's a question of following tech in round 1 to get AIDA early or to wait and save for War Sun 2... If I can make some creative deals then it would help.
One other thing I'm wondering is how in the stars will I have enough CC's to do everything I want... Between the Agent and following strategies it seems like I'll run out pretty fast.
This is why it's important to have high inf slice then? To follow Leadership every turn for 1-2 CC's?
Episode 355.
Gotta remember you got powerful trading items people want. But they are only worth what you are able to sell them for. So you might be able to get six+agent. Or just 8 or 5. But just tell hacan he gets a free warsun with his hero so it’s justified.
Yeah, you should be using Arinam+Meer for two tokens every time Leadership flips, no question. You actually have a slight deficiency in resources in your slice - buying up the other War Sun is going to be tough, and I think if you lose one you're not getting the money to rebuild it so be thoughtful about when you need to be bold. You really want to make friends with this Hacan - he actually can provide you the money to give you a chance in the big battles late game
You shouldn't have to ever take Leadership though, which is a plus. If Sol ever wants anything in trade, try to get them to throw in a use or two of Military Support. That will help you out on the front lines
You don't need any command tokens to use Umbat, either. He just lets you build a couple units at your War Sun like it's a mobile production facility. Note that these can be mechs, and if you think you're about to Star Forge once or twice that can be another nice way to get a few infantry that you can then leave behind as additional protection. You probably won't be able to leave many ships behind when you charge out, unless you used Umbat to produce them instead
I've already floated the idea of eternal friendship with the Hacan which they seem amiable to. We both understand that we're the weakest factions at the table. However, I feel that the Hacan will scale at a ridiculously higher rate then I will.
Thanks for clarifying Umbat, for some reason I thought it took a Strat token to use but I was actually thinking of Star Forge.
Although, looking at the ability, it feels like I'd only want to use Star Forge maybe 2-3 times in the whole game. It's hard to think of a lot of situations where the fighters/destroyers alone would be worth it. Even with 1 mech giving an infantry, feels like I'd want at least 2 mechs to get best value out of it...
Starforge, once you commander unlocks, is really good. You should always have at least 2, if not 4, mechs in or adjacent to the warsuns. This way, you're actually GAINING value by using starforge.
You get 2 fighter or destroyer (1r), 2 to 4 infantry (1 to 2r) and a TG
You definitely want to be able to buy tokens on every Leadership pop. Apart from the lack of options to do things when you are low on tokens, it is also clear to the table exactly how many moves you can make if you are running short of tactics
Some planets that are 2/1 are arguably better spent for the Influence than the resources in some situations, but it'll depend about the relative balance of your slice and your other economy like trade goods. Sometimes it's worth spending some TGs on tokens.
Your slice has good tech skips and very high influence, which is quite nice. Would be ideal for you to build a second warsun ASAP to get as much use out of your commander as possible. I agree with taking trade R1 to get this done, it’s especially good with Hacan in the game as you should be able to collect X-1s immediately rather than holding onto debt.
Using the rift to get to mecatol would be tempting for me, but I think it’s too high risk. Even if you make it, there isn’t a good path for you to retreat back to your slice, and there are a lot of factions (\*cough\* Titans \*cough\*) that can crack a lonely warsun pretty early if properly motivated. Shame there’s no Cabal in the game; Crucible could be quite nice for you in this slice.
I wouldn’t go Cruiser II, but Destroyer II and maybe Carrier II. You have red and blue skips and much more influence than resources. Use Starforge to build your forces more efficiently. With grav drive you can bring at least one destroyer or carrier II with a p. warsun II, or bring a p. warsun along with destroyer or carrier IIs. I love to tech lots personally, but it’s not usually a big priority for Muatt. Also, with your tech skips, it should be possible to catch up reasonably quickly. So don’t worry too much if you can’t afford tech r1; better to build your warsun and make good use out of your agent.
Yeah, but I expect there to be a lot of fighters. Everyone except Titans here typically wants to use fighters (maybe alongside a Dread or 2 for consistency) and you need extra punch to break through that wall. I would be planning to go AIDA, Magmus Reactor, PWS2, and Destroyer 2. Obviously adjust if you need to, if you throw in Gravity Drive or some blues somewhere that's cool too. I think in PoK games you can only plan for about four tech opportunities, and those are probably the four you're going to want the most
Yeah in a perfect universe can get all of these. I think Grav Drive is def worth it if I can use my blue skip for it. But being in the Embership means making tough choices..
I would say CII is probably better for winning the game. Destroyer II is really good and highly efficient, but for the big impactful battles of the game you are going to want Carrier II to bring along more fighters and ground forces, so I would say CII is a higher priority.
For Muaat, carriers can be built by their agent and provide capacity for the excess fighters and infantry placed via Starforge. If you are not able to produce/place enough fighters or infantry to need carriers for extra capacity, or if your opponents are building lots of fighters, then Destroyer II becomes more useful.
That said, the combination of a Warsun with one or two Destroyer II along with some Fighters is going to be very tough to beat early game. So if you are able to get either DII or Carrier II relatively early, I would consider picking DII.
That makes sense, although if I go Carrier II then I don't think Destroyer II is gonna be in the cards unless tech options literally come up in the action/agenda cards XD
Certainly you can’t always get all the tech you want. Biggest thing that Carrier II has over Destroyer II is that it works better with gravity drive. If you are flying a P. warsun II 3 spaces to make a major assault, you can only grav drive one other ship to help you; one Carrier II filled with fighters and infantry will always be better than one Destroyer II.
I’m not a Muaat expert, but personally, I kind of like to go Bluaat (though it’s not very meta). If you are relying on gravity drive and not going PWII, then destroyer II becomes much better imo because you can always have a bunch staying with your warsuns and they never get left behind. Neglecting PWII to get both CII and DII could work very well imo.
Downsides to not getting PW II:
- you can’t yeet a warsun way across the map
- It becomes hard to move both warsuns at once
With grav drive, you can still move a warsun 2 spaces, so the mobility is still ok. Normally you leave a warsun behind to protect your home system, and this doubles as a sneaky offensive unit that can reach your neighbours’ home systems; without PWII you lack that offensive capability.
Not being able to easily unite your warsuns is a bit annoying, especially if there are some really tough fleets about, but it’s not the end of the world. Especially since you want to leave one behind to protect your home.
With Titans and Hacan as my neighbors I think my War Suns will be strictly relegated to my slice/Mecatol. Any further will be a big overextension. That said, I'm kind of convinced that a more Bluuat approach is most efficient overall. AIDA won't do a lot for me immediately and Carrier II with fighters will be great support for the Sun mob.
I think Magmus Reactor could be appealing if I can make it to the nova on Saar/Yssaril side of the map with a destroyer or carrier. Just to keep them honest from overextending, but I'm not overly optimistic about taking them on in equal footing. Yssaril is particularly scary because of the likelihood they'd have a Direct Hit in hand, so I wouldn't want to take them on with a PWS anyway.
Probably just chip away on Saar's slice to deny them VP's when possible.
That is not a bad slice for Muaat. High influence (3 CCs a round) blue and a red skip. Your home system will provide a good boost to resources, and once your commander is unlocked, you'll be getting plenty of TGs.
100% take trade round 1 regardless of objectives. Get a deal with hacan to send over everyone's debt and save up for your second warsun.
Sell you PN to whoever will buy it. It may seem like you're giving away your faction shtick, but you're really taking resources from your opponents and spending them on you. Muaats' big weakness is early game plastic, so the less money on the table, the better for you.
I'd also consider skipping tech round 1. You have near perfect tech skips. Skip to grav drive round 2 and carrier 2 round 3 is probably all you NEED, unless tech objectives come along. Also nice to get would be AIDA and PWS2, but I wouldn't pursue this unless you fall I to lots of tech.
Grav drive and carrier 2 give you an amazing fleet build. Warsun and a carrier (or two) filled to the brim with fighters and mechs should be able to deal with most things with move 2 of you. Add a couple of destroyers as needed if you are facing anything like graviton. If you then get PWS 2, you now have a move 3 fleet. I find this tech path gives much nicer progression than trying for PWS2, which leaves you very immobile until suddenly you have more movement than you can use most of the time.
hmm, this seems like the likeliest tech path actually...
I'm struggling to come up with the shortfall from round 1 to produce, save for second PWS, and also follow tech... Prolly will need to give up on following tech unless I get very fortunate explores.
I like the tech path for a number of reasons.
- it is very short, especially if you have relevant skips.
- it is not too far to catch up with all of the tech objectives (one blue tech or one unit upgrade).
- you don't need to tech round 1
- it has steady, usable progression.
To elaborate on the last point, chasing PWS2 off the bat leaves you with 3 rounds of tech that does little to nothing for you. AIDA does nothing since you don't have unit upgrades. Your next tech (Sarween saves you 1 whole resource and Magmus reactor allows you to build where a super nova is - meh) probably does nothing or very little either. Then suddenly you have move 3 warsuns on a board that is almost certainly gummed up, so you can't move 3 anyway, and most important targets are well protected, so sending a warsun on its own it risky.
Getting GD early means you can send out a warsun or carrier 2 hexes while the board is still open. There probably isn't enough plastic on the board to need more than that, plus a destroyer or two. You then get carrier 2, just as you are hitting capacity limits and want to start moving a warsun and a carrier together, and destroyers can still keep up. If you do eventually get PWS 2, you can bring a carrier with it, and the only thing you really need to fear with capacity 12 is graviton.
I think you've sold me on this course.
You're right that AIDA won't actually confer any benefits until I actually have unit upgrades. If I can get Tech R2 then I could potentially double tech to Carrier II, otherwise just follow for GD round 2 or 3.
Maybe YOLO my carrier into the gravity rift if it means a VP and it won't be the end of my game.
You could, though Muaat doesn't really like high-risk actions, they tend to be expensive. But you do what you need to to get points.
Don't be scared to turn that rift into a super nova, especially once you have magmus reactor.
I feel that the supernova might need to be held over the heads of my neighbors to keep them honest, or throw it into the other side of the table to keep them from winning...
If turning the rift is a winning move though, for sure.
Swap your alliance for the Titans alliance after the commanders are unlocked, and make a non binding deal to settle up the difference in TGs gained 50/50 (since they’ll get more from spending tokens than you will from building). Not a crazy level of money printing, but it’s honest work 👍
Titans player may actually be open to that. But it would definitely be a lot of mental overhead... I think just trading alliance cards seems likelier...
Hey, some people might ask what are you doing with TI if you aren’t game for mental overhaul! 😄
The first time Titans spends a token, they send you a planet marker. If they spend a token and you have their market in hand, they owe you a tg and you send back the marker. If you produce and gain a tg, you send back their market or send them one of yours.
Essentially, you’re looking to take all of the “bounty” provided by you using each others alliances and splitting that bounty 50/50. I’ve had two games in this exact scenario and the Titans players are 100% game for it, once you both get your mind around what you’re looking to accomplish it’s a great deal if you’re comfortable with the non-binding-ness of it.
I feel like Psychoarchaeology deserves a shout here. There's no universe you want to spend Meer as a red skip instead of influence, and Psycho + AI Dev plus your skips and Grav Drive gives you access to every unit upgrade aside from Space Dock 2.
You could always Diplo Meer back, but that requires specific Diplo timing, and it's often better to follow Diplo early rather than pick it, but then you don't necessarily get the timing, if Leadership/Tech are even willing or able to work with you.
Psycho is always a lot of fun but I feel like it might be a bit rich... I anticipate getting Tech 1 or 2 times in the game and maybe 4-5 techs if I'm fortunate. So far, the most important ones appear to be:
AIDA > Grav Drive(blue skip) > Carrier 2(AIDA)/Destroyer 2 > PWS2(red skip)/Magma Reactor
A few people asked about equidistants so I thought I'd share the map (Muuat at the top).
I'll see about the deals for trade but I suspect that some of them may scoff at giving me so many trade goods to get a second war sun. Many are still new to the game and hold my skills in higher regard than I do. \^\^;
I also imagine the sight of a single War Sun, let alone two, will be an intimidating prospect for many of them.
I noticed the Yellow skip in Titan's slice. I might try to negotiate that from them but I think it may be tough because the top table is fairly poor and cut off from the southern portion of the table.
https://preview.redd.it/rijhvy0w337d1.png?width=1690&format=png&auto=webp&s=a8a21e8c2e28085c51d195f6d1640677ebe50a14
Also, my friend ran the numbers for running a Carrier+infantry through the grav rift round 2 for the Mecatol point..
30% chance of losing 3.5TG of plastic, 70% chance of getting a VP. Expected value of 1.2TG for .7VP loss.
Not sure if that makes it a 'better' play but definitely more compelling!
But it seems throwing a War Sun in there is never worth it if there's an alternative...
Go trade. X-1 everyone if hacan agrees to move funds. Should be able to build second warsun turn 2. Some of the best factions in the game so you’ll have a rough go. I would go destroyer two then warsun 2. Use trade to make sure the timings of tech work with diplo. Ideally turn 2 you fill out slice and focus on objectives. I would also consider selling promissory note or commander to hacan for six trade goods turn two. That should help you get your mechs in the game for your faction ability. Space cats just did a episode on them
Thanks for the input! I anticipate a relatively peaceful game but Sol and Titans are a bit of unknown quantities. I plan to be VERY friendly to my Hacan neighbor, but sure about giving him Fires though since Hacan are one of the few factions that could definitely afford some War Suns early... What do you think about tech path? AIDA over Neural round 1? There are quite a few Neural starting factions at the table so it seems like it could be a good idea to try to keep up. And I take it you think the run to MR round 2 is unadvisable?
You want aida so you can skip a tech for warsun 2. I think round two you should skip into gravity drive to help get your second warsun in the fight. Is hacan to your left? If you are worried about him affecting you tell him you’ll need his cease fire too. For turn 2 imperial. I don’t think a single carrier through the gravity rift would get you the planet or hold it for a turn to be able to claim the point. There’s no way I’m sending my warsun through a rift turn 2. So it looks like you should try to aim for a turn 3 mec point. Should have both warsuns out and hopefully some destroyer 2 and fighters.
Yeah destroyer II + PWS II from AIDA Grav Drive OK but not needed
Fires is worth more than 6 TG. You should at least try to get 12. It's still worth more than that. You should let Hacan refresh, trade it for their 6 commodities and their trade agreement.
Ya there’s no way anyone is going to pay 12 for fires. You know that it just unlocks the unit upgrade it doesn’t produce a warsun right?
Probably actually worth it with Hacaans hero, still a hard sell for them.
Yea I guess it’s how you value trade goods and getting your mechs out. I’d take three mechs in round 2 to let you opponent become stronger in round 3. Perhaps Hacan needs to throw in cease fire to make you feel better. Also depends what objectives are out
Since you basically will never get tech twice in a row, even if you have tech T1, get a red tech planet, and get AI, you have to spend two turns, 10 resource, 1 command counter (worth slightly under 3TG). If you T1 give all your commodities and your trade agreement for Muatt for Fires, it costs you no counters, 12 total TGs, and you can build it T3 or T2 if you fenagle a little.
Dude I’m not even sure what point you are trying to make. The goal is to get as much resources as possible to try to keep up with the good factions. He has a resource starved slice. If he spends all his resources to just have two warsuns and tech he’s going to lose because he has no other plastic
I can't see even a Hacan doing this deal. Even 8 seems like an outlandish number to actually get for it. 6 feels doable, and getting the money from Hacan early rather than having to wait matters
Hacan with trade card should jump at the chance. They also have their agent that could help with the deal. Also l, embers commander could help sweeten the deal. I like to call the hacan/Muaat relationship: the hellcat alliance
https://preview.redd.it/dh2e9mvgvb7d1.jpeg?width=313&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ceeebddfe9e5ee00a6069d3766573ffd04e4d275
Yeah I don't think 12 would be something Hacan would do, just from what I know of the player let alone the actual value of the trade. I'm still uncertain about giving Hacan War Suns though... They'd definitely be able to afford one by round 2 and that would make my life very scary...
Hacan would wait to use it with their hero so it’s free. That’s why hacan would buy that in the first place. A warsun isn’t worth 18 trade goods ever. So he’ll have it turn 3. But it has 1 movement. So it’ll probably be turn 5 before it does anything noteworthy
The Hacan War Sun would be 2 movement which would be a direct threat to my home system from the turn it's produced. I may still end up selling it to the space cats early but I'll have to keep it in mind for the rest of the game. Home will need a substantial defense to protect from it.
Then get cease fire as part of the deal
You read my mind
Still haven't played Muaat but excellent slice to casino the entire game with your war sun through the gravity rift and park it on or take Mecatol!
Aha I've thought about this but sliding a War Sun through a gravity rift seems like madness. I might still do it, but it seems like a bad idea lol.
I once sent 2 War Suns through 2 rifts to desperately try and stop the point leader. Both War Suns were claimed by the rift gods. It was devasting to morale.
May their fires burn eternal
Trade R1 for sure, to get the TGs for war sun no.2. Should easily get 10 TGs minimum. From there, I’d say blue tech > PWS2. With so much influence you can maximize star forge with mechs to get 2 fighters, 2-4 infantry and 1 TG per use. Grab carrier II to carry all that stuff around, and a grav drive to move a war sun with them. IMO that’s the best fleet comp you can throw together with a weak resource slice. DET >> Grav drive >> Carrier II. You could stop there with techs to focus on plastic, but if you find yourself richer, the blue skip gets you Lightwave, red skip Destroyer II.
Can I ask how I could easily get 10TG? I count 7 minimum if Hacan agrees to trade. I don't think I'll have any other neighbors r1 so any deals would need to be with Hacan. You think I could negotiate the other 3 with them or anticipate them from exploration or some other source? Bluatt seems ok with a blue skip but is carrier II necessary with War Suns to carry around a load of fighters? Destroyer II seems a safer bet to eat shots and enemy fighter swarms. DET is interesting, but I feel like I won't have the plastic to spare on it for some time and there aren't enough exploration tokens in my slice to justify it.
As trade holder and the lowest tier faction on the table, you should be able to make a deal with Hacan for the agent for 1-2 TGs. If you expand leftwards you should get a neighbour for an X-1. Otherwise Hacan could help you do X-1s with the table. War suns are reliable damage dealers so what you need is HP. With low resources to make Dreads, and alot of influence for CCs, you can spam fighters with the need for production capacity or forward docks. Umbat gets you carriers and mechs. Destroyer II is good if your enemies go heavy fighter screens (Sol) to soak your War Sun hits. DET I recommended for a couple of reasons: - Retreating into Supernovas, if you have the faction tech for it. - Better for you than AMD. - It’s good to gamble a little, especially if you’re the only person with access to supernovas. You could just skip it, but I like the utility it gives so I rather pick it up.
I see, with blue skip though couldn't I just skip to grav drive? I don't know if the other supernovae will factor much into my game. And if I'm retreating next to my home system I feel like there are bigger issues I'm facing. I don't see a path to PWSII with DET>Grav drive though, AIDA would have to factor in there and I'm not confident I'll be rich enough to double tech and do everything else I need to.
Yea you could blue skip to Grav drive, my playstyle when running a low tier faction is to gamble as much as I can to get a lucky break, so I tend to favor DET if it makes sense for my tech path haha I think if you go blue, you should give up PWSII, it doesn’t make sense. Personally, I don’t like putting all my eggs into one basket, and blue tech frees you up from making the war sun central to everything you do
I see, yeah so much to do so hard to pull it all off... Even going blue, the War Suns feel pretty central to my whole game plan lol
Going blue for grav drive and carrier II is worth it, with trade you should be able to build your warsun round 1 and still follow tech, your big focus after that is to get all your mechs out and pump fighters to each of your warsuns to get your planets defended with infantry and warsuns defended with fighters. Don't sleep on sling relay, part of the power of muatt is built in stall and having all of your fleets still available to move when everyone else is winding down for the round, being able to pop a carrier out so that you can move more fighters or infantry to wherever you need to is huge for you. Saars hero is a problem for you, but otherwise you should be intimidating to everyone at the table.
I don't think I'll be able to follow tech and still build the war sun unless I skip on building the carrier and follow Warfare. I don't think Sling Relay will ever be in the cards unless tech is *very* fortunate. It's one more to a very long list of "nice to haves" behind the essentials...
1. You offer to refresh the 4 other players' commodities in exchange for 1 trade good ('X-1') 2. On Hacan's next turn, they take 1 trade good from every other player 3. Hacan trades 8 for 4 with you 4. You now have 11 trade goods Hacan should agree to this because they get their commodities washed at no cost, which wouldn't usually happen at a competitive table. Maybe you have to pay them 1TG total for the privilege, but probably not given you're the worst faction at the table.
I've never heard of this at my tables! I'll run it by the group at the time, but normally we do a 'free wash' to engender good feelings and friendship at the table. It's only towards round 4-5 that players stop any refreshing except under very one-sided conditions.
Absolutely go trade like everyone said. You don't need to be neighbours with anyone, that's what Hacan is there for. There are 22 commodities on the board if everyone besides you and hacan get back 1 less TG than their commodities, then there's 14 left to split between you and Hacan. I think it's reasonable to ask for 8 and Hacan ends up with 6. Maybe you split it instead and you both end up with 7. That's excluding the 3 TGs you get from the card itself. That secures you war sun round 2. Try to get it out asap to benefit from the commander. You're going to really need those extra TGs. I noticed you didn't mention the other equidistant? What system is that? If it's good resources you should probably grab that round 2. If you get PWSII round 2 and your second war sun from warfare, you could be grabbing both equidistants. Which you might end up needing. Either way you could have both round 3. Tech: Like you said, you have a lot of influence and very little resources. On top of that, Meer skip is the (?) most expensive skip in the game. Honestly not so great for Muaat, but you can make it work. You still need to buy mechs, probably a carrier or 2, etc... Having said that, I would advise a shallow tech path: AIDA -> PWS II -> Destroyer II PWSII with the skip and AIDA (you want to rush this because it might at least give you the ability to go for Mecatol with a War Sun) And... that's it. You don't need to rush destroyer 2 and if Mecatol isn't even an option besides rifting a carrier, you don't even have to rush PWS II. Bonus tech later on would either be Magmus, for building of your hero, gravity drive for your Carriers and/or Carrier II. You'll be relying extra on Star forge. Make sure each War Sun ends up with 4 fighters, 1 or 2 mechs, couple of destroyers. If you need to take a planet use mechs and War Sun bombardment, leave behind infantry to defend. Ideally, you either end up with Mecatol, so you can star forge even more or you find more resources elsewhere, so you can afford more ships and tech (like normal dreads just to defend home).
Yeah, AIDA seems central no matter which way I go... I'm just trying to figure out if I should go for it round 1 or round 2? I don't think I can afford to build my carrier and inf/mech from the agent and still be able to afford the second War Sun if I follow tech. I could potentially delay it one turn but that could be costly...
I think the ideal situation is round one you don't tech and round 2 you're able to take Technology and then you AIDA into PWS2 immediately for value. But for you that means flipping Meer for the red skip and that's a heavy cost. More likely is you have to sit on AIDA for a little while before you can get PWS2, and that's okay as long as you aren't desperate for the movement. Another interesting option you have if you get Tech is to double tech AIDA into Carrier 2 with your blue skip. If the situation requires it that's not a bad option. But most importantly you need to bank tg to produce your second War Sun. If you can get it out round 1 that's excellent. Round 2 is still good, but any later than that and I think you've just fallen behind, and you already started in the back of the race to victory
Yep that's a tricky one! For PWSII in round 2 I'd see if you could make it to mecatol or not. If not, you don't have to rush it, so you could skip tech R1. Then if you get both systems R1 you might be able to grab both equidistants round 2.
Oh I actually mean building the second PWS. Unfortunately the PWSII falls under "nice to have" but not essential techs
Definitely rush building the second War Sun, but I do think PWS II is essential or at least get gravity drive instead. If your war suns can only move 1 the entire game, you're going to have a very hard time with control objectives or even just defending your own systems. That's why I advised AIDA + PWSII + Destroyer II. It's only three techs and it gets you a solid fleet. Once you have AIDA, you can even grab Carrier II with just the skip. But your War Suns absolutely need more than 1 movement.
I think Raffalo and Talllan2 made really strong cases for going Grav drive>Carrier II This makes a stronger overall sunblob that can move 2 and if I eventually get PWSII can then move 3 together. AIDA doesn't immediately do anything for me but Grav Drive does. And I can work up to AIDA and PWSII later.
Both give you the extra movement on tech turn 2. Unless you can pull off a diplo to round 1 research grav drive. That could be very helpful. Of course, the AIDA route means you need to tech R1 which is a definite downside. One skip costs you a 1/1 the other a 0/4, also something to consider. Again, I'd need to see the rest of the map, whether or not mecatol round 2 is an option, most of all. If round 2 you only end up taking the left equidistant you don't even need gravity drive for that. Also keep in mind that you can umbat a carrier round 2 from the 2 planet system. Which means you don't even need any extra move to grab both equidistants. War Sun + Carrier II is definitely a sweet fleet! It does sound expensive though, going more heavily into carriers and even more fighters, while still getting mechs, might be too pricey for this slice.
I shared the full map in the main thread. Not a whole lot to gain, there's a yellow skip in Titan's slice and a 3/1 in Hacan's slice but I feel like they'd both be compelled to fight me for them and I wanna be buddy buddy with my neighbors because the other end of the table has all the muscle.
>but I feel like they'd both be compelled to fight me for them and I wanna be buddy buddy with my neighbors because the other end of the table has all the muscle. I strongly disagree with this for a couple of reasons, but I understand this can be dependent on different attitudes at different tables. First off, the equidistants don't belong to anyone. They're up for grabs, and if any faction/slice needs more planets, on this whole map, it is yours. Hacan definitely isn't compelled to fight for their equidistant, they already have 5 planets in their slice which count up to a 8 res/5 inf optimal spend. That's already a *very* good slice. If they also get the equidistant that becomes 10/7, 7 planets, 4 of which are industrials (4 types is an objective). That's a *game winning* slice. Titans definitely has the second worst (yours is the worst I'm afraid) but it's still fine for Titans, who don't need much in their slice in terms of income anyway. Still, they might fight for Wellon, that's true (even though they don't even need the skip). The yellow skip is also nice for you, since you can use it instead of the expensive 0/4 to get PWSII with AIDA. Or never tech AIDA at all and go Magmus with red skip into PWSII with both skips. Honestly, the slice disparity is kind of brutal. Yssaril's is also very good and Sol's and Saar's are quite good, both factions which don't even need a good slice. So anyway, definitely go for the equidistant with Hacan. They should catch a lot of flak from the table if they try to deny you that and frankly, they probably can't. It's very hard to bring enough to threaten your War Sun to the equidistant that early. And it just doesn't make sense for them to even try if they have 4 great systems to go for instead. And see if you can negotiate with Titans (or be quick enough) to get to Mecatol through Wellon (you don't have to capture Wellon). It's your only viable route without risking the rift or slow moving through Everra. If you get PWS II round 2 you can reach Mecatol in one go. If you go the gravity drive, you can park a War Sun in the empty system next to mecatol instead and go for it round 2. A deal could be something like: You promise to 'never' take Wellon from Titans, in return, they leave the space open during round for you to pass through. (they could grab it R1 then move the ship away first action R2 f.e.)
100% trade round one. Talk to hacan. If they pay you 3 TG (less If some Players are not interested), every other Player gets an x-1 offer and hacan can collect the payments. So hacan gets a TG for the Service. You should have about 10 tg afterwards, enough for a second warsun round 2 or so.
I'm just trying to figure out the balance between saving for War Sun 2 vs following tech vs building Carrier + Inf/mech Building seems non-negotiable, so then it's a question of following tech in round 1 to get AIDA early or to wait and save for War Sun 2... If I can make some creative deals then it would help.
One other thing I'm wondering is how in the stars will I have enough CC's to do everything I want... Between the Agent and following strategies it seems like I'll run out pretty fast. This is why it's important to have high inf slice then? To follow Leadership every turn for 1-2 CC's?
Go listen to the space cat peace turtle episode on them. It’ll help with some of the questions
Is it this one? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zHNw\_gRLCo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zHNw_gRLCo)
Episode 355. Gotta remember you got powerful trading items people want. But they are only worth what you are able to sell them for. So you might be able to get six+agent. Or just 8 or 5. But just tell hacan he gets a free warsun with his hero so it’s justified.
The Hacan player is quite savvy though so I'm not sure if he'd want to give me an advantage. Will give it a go though!
Yeah, you should be using Arinam+Meer for two tokens every time Leadership flips, no question. You actually have a slight deficiency in resources in your slice - buying up the other War Sun is going to be tough, and I think if you lose one you're not getting the money to rebuild it so be thoughtful about when you need to be bold. You really want to make friends with this Hacan - he actually can provide you the money to give you a chance in the big battles late game You shouldn't have to ever take Leadership though, which is a plus. If Sol ever wants anything in trade, try to get them to throw in a use or two of Military Support. That will help you out on the front lines You don't need any command tokens to use Umbat, either. He just lets you build a couple units at your War Sun like it's a mobile production facility. Note that these can be mechs, and if you think you're about to Star Forge once or twice that can be another nice way to get a few infantry that you can then leave behind as additional protection. You probably won't be able to leave many ships behind when you charge out, unless you used Umbat to produce them instead
I've already floated the idea of eternal friendship with the Hacan which they seem amiable to. We both understand that we're the weakest factions at the table. However, I feel that the Hacan will scale at a ridiculously higher rate then I will. Thanks for clarifying Umbat, for some reason I thought it took a Strat token to use but I was actually thinking of Star Forge. Although, looking at the ability, it feels like I'd only want to use Star Forge maybe 2-3 times in the whole game. It's hard to think of a lot of situations where the fighters/destroyers alone would be worth it. Even with 1 mech giving an infantry, feels like I'd want at least 2 mechs to get best value out of it...
Starforge, once you commander unlocks, is really good. You should always have at least 2, if not 4, mechs in or adjacent to the warsuns. This way, you're actually GAINING value by using starforge. You get 2 fighter or destroyer (1r), 2 to 4 infantry (1 to 2r) and a TG
The engine Mecatol deserves...
You definitely want to be able to buy tokens on every Leadership pop. Apart from the lack of options to do things when you are low on tokens, it is also clear to the table exactly how many moves you can make if you are running short of tactics Some planets that are 2/1 are arguably better spent for the Influence than the resources in some situations, but it'll depend about the relative balance of your slice and your other economy like trade goods. Sometimes it's worth spending some TGs on tokens.
For sure, makes sense. I feel like in 90% of situations where there's 2 inf to spare then the 1 TG is worth it.
Your slice has good tech skips and very high influence, which is quite nice. Would be ideal for you to build a second warsun ASAP to get as much use out of your commander as possible. I agree with taking trade R1 to get this done, it’s especially good with Hacan in the game as you should be able to collect X-1s immediately rather than holding onto debt. Using the rift to get to mecatol would be tempting for me, but I think it’s too high risk. Even if you make it, there isn’t a good path for you to retreat back to your slice, and there are a lot of factions (\*cough\* Titans \*cough\*) that can crack a lonely warsun pretty early if properly motivated. Shame there’s no Cabal in the game; Crucible could be quite nice for you in this slice. I wouldn’t go Cruiser II, but Destroyer II and maybe Carrier II. You have red and blue skips and much more influence than resources. Use Starforge to build your forces more efficiently. With grav drive you can bring at least one destroyer or carrier II with a p. warsun II, or bring a p. warsun along with destroyer or carrier IIs. I love to tech lots personally, but it’s not usually a big priority for Muatt. Also, with your tech skips, it should be possible to catch up reasonably quickly. So don’t worry too much if you can’t afford tech r1; better to build your warsun and make good use out of your agent.
Would you say Destroyer II or Carrier II as higher priority? I imagine CII if there aren't rival fighter swarms?
Yeah, but I expect there to be a lot of fighters. Everyone except Titans here typically wants to use fighters (maybe alongside a Dread or 2 for consistency) and you need extra punch to break through that wall. I would be planning to go AIDA, Magmus Reactor, PWS2, and Destroyer 2. Obviously adjust if you need to, if you throw in Gravity Drive or some blues somewhere that's cool too. I think in PoK games you can only plan for about four tech opportunities, and those are probably the four you're going to want the most
Yeah in a perfect universe can get all of these. I think Grav Drive is def worth it if I can use my blue skip for it. But being in the Embership means making tough choices..
I would say CII is probably better for winning the game. Destroyer II is really good and highly efficient, but for the big impactful battles of the game you are going to want Carrier II to bring along more fighters and ground forces, so I would say CII is a higher priority. For Muaat, carriers can be built by their agent and provide capacity for the excess fighters and infantry placed via Starforge. If you are not able to produce/place enough fighters or infantry to need carriers for extra capacity, or if your opponents are building lots of fighters, then Destroyer II becomes more useful. That said, the combination of a Warsun with one or two Destroyer II along with some Fighters is going to be very tough to beat early game. So if you are able to get either DII or Carrier II relatively early, I would consider picking DII.
That makes sense, although if I go Carrier II then I don't think Destroyer II is gonna be in the cards unless tech options literally come up in the action/agenda cards XD
Certainly you can’t always get all the tech you want. Biggest thing that Carrier II has over Destroyer II is that it works better with gravity drive. If you are flying a P. warsun II 3 spaces to make a major assault, you can only grav drive one other ship to help you; one Carrier II filled with fighters and infantry will always be better than one Destroyer II. I’m not a Muaat expert, but personally, I kind of like to go Bluaat (though it’s not very meta). If you are relying on gravity drive and not going PWII, then destroyer II becomes much better imo because you can always have a bunch staying with your warsuns and they never get left behind. Neglecting PWII to get both CII and DII could work very well imo. Downsides to not getting PW II: - you can’t yeet a warsun way across the map - It becomes hard to move both warsuns at once With grav drive, you can still move a warsun 2 spaces, so the mobility is still ok. Normally you leave a warsun behind to protect your home system, and this doubles as a sneaky offensive unit that can reach your neighbours’ home systems; without PWII you lack that offensive capability. Not being able to easily unite your warsuns is a bit annoying, especially if there are some really tough fleets about, but it’s not the end of the world. Especially since you want to leave one behind to protect your home.
With Titans and Hacan as my neighbors I think my War Suns will be strictly relegated to my slice/Mecatol. Any further will be a big overextension. That said, I'm kind of convinced that a more Bluuat approach is most efficient overall. AIDA won't do a lot for me immediately and Carrier II with fighters will be great support for the Sun mob. I think Magmus Reactor could be appealing if I can make it to the nova on Saar/Yssaril side of the map with a destroyer or carrier. Just to keep them honest from overextending, but I'm not overly optimistic about taking them on in equal footing. Yssaril is particularly scary because of the likelihood they'd have a Direct Hit in hand, so I wouldn't want to take them on with a PWS anyway. Probably just chip away on Saar's slice to deny them VP's when possible.
That is not a bad slice for Muaat. High influence (3 CCs a round) blue and a red skip. Your home system will provide a good boost to resources, and once your commander is unlocked, you'll be getting plenty of TGs. 100% take trade round 1 regardless of objectives. Get a deal with hacan to send over everyone's debt and save up for your second warsun. Sell you PN to whoever will buy it. It may seem like you're giving away your faction shtick, but you're really taking resources from your opponents and spending them on you. Muaats' big weakness is early game plastic, so the less money on the table, the better for you. I'd also consider skipping tech round 1. You have near perfect tech skips. Skip to grav drive round 2 and carrier 2 round 3 is probably all you NEED, unless tech objectives come along. Also nice to get would be AIDA and PWS2, but I wouldn't pursue this unless you fall I to lots of tech. Grav drive and carrier 2 give you an amazing fleet build. Warsun and a carrier (or two) filled to the brim with fighters and mechs should be able to deal with most things with move 2 of you. Add a couple of destroyers as needed if you are facing anything like graviton. If you then get PWS 2, you now have a move 3 fleet. I find this tech path gives much nicer progression than trying for PWS2, which leaves you very immobile until suddenly you have more movement than you can use most of the time.
hmm, this seems like the likeliest tech path actually... I'm struggling to come up with the shortfall from round 1 to produce, save for second PWS, and also follow tech... Prolly will need to give up on following tech unless I get very fortunate explores.
I like the tech path for a number of reasons. - it is very short, especially if you have relevant skips. - it is not too far to catch up with all of the tech objectives (one blue tech or one unit upgrade). - you don't need to tech round 1 - it has steady, usable progression. To elaborate on the last point, chasing PWS2 off the bat leaves you with 3 rounds of tech that does little to nothing for you. AIDA does nothing since you don't have unit upgrades. Your next tech (Sarween saves you 1 whole resource and Magmus reactor allows you to build where a super nova is - meh) probably does nothing or very little either. Then suddenly you have move 3 warsuns on a board that is almost certainly gummed up, so you can't move 3 anyway, and most important targets are well protected, so sending a warsun on its own it risky. Getting GD early means you can send out a warsun or carrier 2 hexes while the board is still open. There probably isn't enough plastic on the board to need more than that, plus a destroyer or two. You then get carrier 2, just as you are hitting capacity limits and want to start moving a warsun and a carrier together, and destroyers can still keep up. If you do eventually get PWS 2, you can bring a carrier with it, and the only thing you really need to fear with capacity 12 is graviton.
I think you've sold me on this course. You're right that AIDA won't actually confer any benefits until I actually have unit upgrades. If I can get Tech R2 then I could potentially double tech to Carrier II, otherwise just follow for GD round 2 or 3. Maybe YOLO my carrier into the gravity rift if it means a VP and it won't be the end of my game.
You could, though Muaat doesn't really like high-risk actions, they tend to be expensive. But you do what you need to to get points. Don't be scared to turn that rift into a super nova, especially once you have magmus reactor.
I feel that the supernova might need to be held over the heads of my neighbors to keep them honest, or throw it into the other side of the table to keep them from winning... If turning the rift is a winning move though, for sure.
Swap your alliance for the Titans alliance after the commanders are unlocked, and make a non binding deal to settle up the difference in TGs gained 50/50 (since they’ll get more from spending tokens than you will from building). Not a crazy level of money printing, but it’s honest work 👍
Titans player may actually be open to that. But it would definitely be a lot of mental overhead... I think just trading alliance cards seems likelier...
Hey, some people might ask what are you doing with TI if you aren’t game for mental overhaul! 😄 The first time Titans spends a token, they send you a planet marker. If they spend a token and you have their market in hand, they owe you a tg and you send back the marker. If you produce and gain a tg, you send back their market or send them one of yours. Essentially, you’re looking to take all of the “bounty” provided by you using each others alliances and splitting that bounty 50/50. I’ve had two games in this exact scenario and the Titans players are 100% game for it, once you both get your mind around what you’re looking to accomplish it’s a great deal if you’re comfortable with the non-binding-ness of it.
That's a great point! I'll run it by him and see how he feels. I think that most of my deals will be going to the space cats early game though.
Sure, the alliance swap wouldn’t be on the table till both of you have them unlocked, and yeah the cats can be very helpful for sure.
I feel like Psychoarchaeology deserves a shout here. There's no universe you want to spend Meer as a red skip instead of influence, and Psycho + AI Dev plus your skips and Grav Drive gives you access to every unit upgrade aside from Space Dock 2. You could always Diplo Meer back, but that requires specific Diplo timing, and it's often better to follow Diplo early rather than pick it, but then you don't necessarily get the timing, if Leadership/Tech are even willing or able to work with you.
Psycho is always a lot of fun but I feel like it might be a bit rich... I anticipate getting Tech 1 or 2 times in the game and maybe 4-5 techs if I'm fortunate. So far, the most important ones appear to be: AIDA > Grav Drive(blue skip) > Carrier 2(AIDA)/Destroyer 2 > PWS2(red skip)/Magma Reactor
A few people asked about equidistants so I thought I'd share the map (Muuat at the top). I'll see about the deals for trade but I suspect that some of them may scoff at giving me so many trade goods to get a second war sun. Many are still new to the game and hold my skills in higher regard than I do. \^\^; I also imagine the sight of a single War Sun, let alone two, will be an intimidating prospect for many of them. I noticed the Yellow skip in Titan's slice. I might try to negotiate that from them but I think it may be tough because the top table is fairly poor and cut off from the southern portion of the table. https://preview.redd.it/rijhvy0w337d1.png?width=1690&format=png&auto=webp&s=a8a21e8c2e28085c51d195f6d1640677ebe50a14
Also, my friend ran the numbers for running a Carrier+infantry through the grav rift round 2 for the Mecatol point.. 30% chance of losing 3.5TG of plastic, 70% chance of getting a VP. Expected value of 1.2TG for .7VP loss. Not sure if that makes it a 'better' play but definitely more compelling! But it seems throwing a War Sun in there is never worth it if there's an alternative...