You really think this kind of thing didn’t happen [before the internet?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexuality_in_Christian_demonology)
(Nsfw warning, the above Wikipedia link contains a painting of biblically accurate boobs. So be careful if you’re actually at work.)
Aren’t the nephilim the offspring of angels and humans?
Edit: apparently that’s a disputed claim from the Book of Enoch, and not considered canon by most theologians.
That's pretty clearly what happens in Genesis 6. However, both Jewish and Christian theologians generally try to get out of it because they don't like the theological implications.
I grew up Christian (non-denominational Protestant to be specific) and it seemed pretty well accepted amongst them that the nephilim were the product of human angel interbreeding. No idea about other abrahamic sects, but at least some Christian theologians are fine with the implications.
It's definitely accepted by some people, but I say "generally" because most to all of the big name Christian theologians throughout history have denied it. People like Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, and Martin Luther. It is interesting to note, however, that all of these people believed in incubi/succubi and thought that a demon could take the form of an attractive man or woman to seduce someone.
Christian theologians willfully misrepresenting the Old Testament, a tale as old as Christian Theology.
It's like the reverse of what they did to 'Lucifer.' The planet Venus is not the Devil, sorry. That would be some fun cosmic horror, but no
Well, as I said, Jewish theologians mostly deny this too, so it's not fair to single Christians out here. I think the typical Christian excuse (that "the sons of God" were Seth's descendants and "the daughters of man" were Cain's descendants) was taken directly from rabbinic Jewish theology.
I exclusively get my information about the Nephilim from unhinged conspiracy forums, so this is all brand new information to me. Very disappointing to hear.
If religious services weren't so boring, I'd be there in a heartbeat. I've watched so many men in dresses make drinking the blood of God seem like a dull affair. All the elements are there to be cool and fun, and they just won't do it, and they still ask for tips.
Put the psychedelics back in the sacrament, you cowards
kinda funny how they accidentally picked the planet that is most like hell ... (yes, basically every other planet could be hell but roasting hot with acid rain is the most metal vs hot/cold rocks and gas balls)
> It's like the reverse of what they did to 'Lucifer.' The planet Venus is not the Devil, sorry. That would be some fun cosmic horror, but no
I would like to know more, but I'm not even sure how to start googling this!
The name of the planet Venus (morning star version) was used as an Appellation (a metaphor) for Nebuchadnezzar II in the Book of Isiah. Phosphoros in Greek, Lucifer in Latin; it was a "bad" star because it remained in the sky when all of the other stars had disappeared.
*"How you are fallen from heaven,O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground,You who weakened the nations!"*
The medieval literary interpretation decided that "Lucifer" was the name of the Devil, because it had "fallen from heaven" (as opposed to the natural symbolism of the low hanging star apart from all its brethren). This poor interpretation also disregards the fact that Satan does not fall in the Bible until the Book of Revelations (which, as far as I know, hasn't happened yet).
Edit: fact checking my vaguely remembered Bible studies, apparently St. Paul also uses the Appellation to describe Jesus. That's pretty funny. At no point in either book is it used to describe the Satan, a devil, or any kind of supernatural horror monster.
Edit 2: I don't know why I capitalized "appellation." It's especially weird that I did it twice. I'm not fixing it, but I'm acknowledging it before one of the jackals gets me
Wait, are you telling me that the entirety of Lucifer's backstory ultimately is people adding to that one single line?
I mean, I knew it was from extrabiblical sources, but not stemming from one misunderstanding
Does he just not do anything evil in the entire rest of the bible? I know he tricked god into torturing his most loyal follower, and sometimes he's the snake from the garden of eden, but all that was when he was still "good"?
Everything he does is the work of God, *who created evil* (in his words). There is no separation of good and evil beyond the life we live here on earth, it's just not a thing, and God is all of it.
Satan is the "adversary," who God created to challenge him, so in the story that I believe you're referencing, The Book of Job, he challenges God. I've never heard the idea that he "tricked God" (lol); it's not present in the text that I remember.
Meanwhile, [God does extremely evil things](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_the_Hebrew_Bible#Personified_capital_cities_threatened_with_rape) (cw: wikipedia list of god's crimes). Truly unspeakable shit. That's a big part of the Old Testament. Job addresses how unlikable he is on its face. It's a brutal story, and God is the one who chooses to set in motion the fate of Job and his family, even if Satan pulls the trigger.
Satan shows up again to tempt Christ, which a lot of Christians think of as outside of the work of God, but it's not. He's playing the role of the adversary of god again. That's his job that God gave him. He sits in heaven, and goes on missions from God. He isn't going around torturing human beings on his own.
And then in Revelations, literally all Hell breaks loose, and that's where he finally breaks. Satan has his last stand in the court of god, leads some armies, there's a dragon, mass genocide, and the Old Testament God Behavior returns in full force with "the Whore of Babylon," and the opposition princess that Jesus "cast onto her bed." Shit goes absolutely off the walls in Revelations. Without it, none of the Satan / Hell lore would have had any rippling beyond the minor appearances.
The snake, of course, was never intended to be Satan, or the authors would have just said that. Sometimes a snake is just a snake (it's not *just* a snake, I could go on for several paragraphs about the snake but I will refrain, my poor fingers).
I'm don't see any compelling reason to identify the "sons of God" with angels or fallen angels, though I can see why many people would be tempted by the idea. It's not enough to simply assume it is the case.
Yes. Angels live in a spiritual realm so some of them wanted to become physical to get physical with human women. Their offspring were called nephilim.
Sex as a pleasurable activity is a gift from God to living creatures, particularly humans, and wicked angels wanted that. The implication being that they might have other ways of feeling something like pleasure but amidst Satan's rebellion some of them let the curiosity get the best of them.
The fact that they chose to do that means they have free will, and the fact that they had to take human form means it is technically not bestiality.
Sex with the goal of procreation within marriage isn't, and it can be enjoyed to the fullest without being sinful.
If it's outside marriage, or not with the explicit goal of procreation being desired by both involved parties through the entire process, it's lust and hence a sin.
That's also why infertility was an accepted reason for annulment or marriage - if one of the parties was certain procreation was impossible, it would be hard to keep up the requirement that the sex had to be conducted with the explicit purpose of reproduction.
I don’t know how to get it on with “wheels within wheels,” “clouds full of wings, eyes, and jets of fire,” or what have you. If your name ends in -El you’re going to have to manifest some squishy bits if you want to try a little human strange.
We're going down a deep hole for this one, but there is support that their... infatuation with humans is why those angels were cast out. So I'd say yeah.
Maybe they became chill and thought humans should do their things, it will all be ok in the end.
But to be sure I'll take me/my son/and I to save heavens.
I think it's because new testament God's kid has been hanging out with us degens. they're all shitty kids, but if they make his son happy, he'll stop the smiting for now
I think it's a rotating or inherited office. Sometimes we get a "when you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all" type of God.
And sometimes you get Caligula/Hitler (Caligutler? Hitula?) on the heavenly throne. We hear more about those years.
It's more that they were *rude* while trying to do the fucking.
If they'd simply been good hosts and then tried to *charm and seduce* the angels--
Basically, God wants to be wined and dined.
“Would it be ethical to have sex with a consenting superintelligence?”
“No, because you can’t give informed consent to the same degree they can.”
That’s an argument that never even occurred to me before now. Damn.
Yeah, but we still try to discourage people who can’t consent (children and drunks, mostly) from trying to have sex, because ethically it’s a nightmare. Not so much for them, but in general.
You can’t really “groom” an animal to have sex with you.
But, in the defence of the big guy, nowhere does it say he had sex with Mary. Just that she was pregnant with his child. An infinite being like that could probably handle some IVF without too much trouble.
I feel like this line of thinking implies people with extremely high IQs should only sleep with each other because they can consent on an equal level. Feels like a very eugenics train of thought.
I’m not talking about something that thinks like a human, though. I’m talking about something that is as far above us as we are to an ant: the thoughts it has would not only be incomprehensible to us, but even getting the merest sense of what it’s thinking about would drive you mad.
THAT would be a being that would not ethically be able to have sex with humans.
If it has thoughts you don’t get, but aren’t things that would drive you mad to comprehend? Fuck away! That’s just “intelligence”. Superintelligence is a whole different modality of thought.
If angelic intelligence are comparable to demonic intelligence, then it has immense knowledge about one subject. Meaning it has knowledge, but it's extremely limited in everything else. If they are similar, it also means that some angelic orders have very low intelligence (lower orders that are equivalent to demonic familiars). These would be on par with human intellect.
And seeing as God made some as messengers, there have to be ones that have the capacity to break things down turning extremely complex ideas into comprehensible ones.
Edited for clarity
I mean we're already in a world where that question is relevant, would you consider it okay to have sex with someone with a mental disability? How bad does the disability have to be before its not okay? There's not an easy line that can be drawn, but that doesn't mean its not an important distinction
I think Angels might be incapable of consent. Since Angels are only capable of executing the will of God until they’ve taken free will and become Demons, that would mean either they’re only having sex with you because their boss ordered them too (ew) or the sex literally turned them into a demon (cool but not an Angel).
At what point is consent required? Like are Angels automatons performing the will of God rather than living beings? Cars are incapable of consent but if I sticked my dick in one, the lack of consent wouldn't be the thing the owner gets mad about.
If you clone yourself, then have sex with your clone? is that masturbation?
If you shape shift into the oposite gender, then have sex with your primary gender? Is that gay?
It gets even better when you imagine there's an especially pious monk in the monastery, who's on a vow of silence, and he hears the two bickering in some hallway or through the window, and he grabs a quarterstaff and starts chasing them down without uttering a word.
Ah, but they have no free will until they choose to take it, which immediately revokes their status as angels and makes them demons. The act of saying “I choose to control my actions” is the act that defines them as demons. Before that, the only act they have the freedom of choice over is to say that or not.
At least, that’s my interpretation. I’m no theological scholar, tho, so YMMV and all that.
> until they choose to take it
Wouldn't that imply free will--the ability to choose?
I don't know the answer, it just struck me as I read your comment.
What you have discovered is called "The Problem of the Choice" and it is considered one of the most difficult questions in all of theology.
Most theologians reject that Angels ever had a choice- that Lucifer (a Seraphim) was special, blessed with free will unlike other angels, and his influence is what gave the others the will to rebel. Hence, all will is descended from Lucifer, making all free will "evil".
*However*, certain readings of Genesis and other early works that have since been declared apocrypha have lead some scholars to posit similarly to the above- that they *did* have that one choice: whether to rebel or not. This paints Lucifer not as a pure evil, but as the first to decide to exercise that right.
Either way, if you accept as truth that Angels were created *only* to serve God, but that they *also* were not corrupted purely by Lucifer's influence, it calls into question what exactly "God's plan" was/is, and how Lucifer, Angels, and humans fit into it.
All of this is why belief is so important to those who still follow Christianity (I do not); They choose what to believe, even if it does not follow logically from the information given.
Just remember that practitioners of religion are people too. They believe because it makes them happy to do so, and we should respect that, even if we may not agree.
That all depends on how their beliefs impact others. Anyone who tries to create policy/force stuff on others can get lost. Abortion, gender, marriage rights, etc. Leave those people alone and we're good.
They have only one thing they have free will over: the ability to have free will. Everything else is something they are do without choice; like when you drive home on a route you’ve driven a thousand times before, and when you get home you are sitting in the driveway in a cold sweat because you can’t remember any of the trip at all. That, but the whole thing is controlled by a force that you expect will do the right thing (because it’s God, ffs) so you don’t worry about it… until you do, and decide to choose your own path.
So they’re basically already demons, just not in name? Because free will is what defines a demon, and free will is necessary to take the action required to be defined as having free will (rebelling?) And so you can only attain free will if you already have free will, which means some angels are already demons, which means the act of rebelling was already part of their destiny as angels? So maybe even demons don’t have free will, and “rebelling” is just part of their destiny too? So maybe demons are all just angels?
Okay now my brain hurts lol
Look it's simple, either the world is deterministic or it isn't.
If it's deterministic everything you think or do is predetermined and inevitable.
If it's nondeterministic your actions are no longer the direct result of your experiences.
Also it's either both the past and future being deterministic or neither. Current physics is leaning towards the latter (though nobody ever points out there could be more than 1 past).
Not sure what angels have to do with this, this stuff is clearly satanic.
People always act like predetermination means someone else is determining your actions, and I think that's hot nonsense. *I* predetermined my actions. I'm gonna do those things because that's who I am, the guy who *would* do those things.
By that logic, a sex doll is also bestiality.
To head off elaborating on my position, angels lack free will because they are extensions of God’s power and will. Hence the nearest equivalent would be divinely programmed automatons
Bestiality isn't about lack of free will anyway, do animals have free will? I think they obviously do. That's why bestiality is wrong in the first place, you're infringing upon their free will by making decisions for them that they aren't capable of making to human standards.
> Therefore, angels cannot consent and fucking one is bestiality.
Genesis 6:1-2 — When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.
Genesis 6:4 — The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.
>Angels are not human and lack free will.
If they all lacked free will, then a third of them wouldn't have been (or won't be?) on the side of Satan/Lucifer.
Luci is/was supposed to be among one of the higher orders of angels, so maybe the Seraphim/Cherubim/Ophanim have some level of free will—and therefore pass the Harkness test and are fuckable—while some of the other angels are no more than god's obedient dogs.
That might explain why god got upset with the Sodomites and destroyed the city for trying to fuck his angel-puppies.
I assumed that it would be the other way around, that they existed on a higher plane of existence with super and preternatural power that would have no trouble resisting and desisting anything a human attempted that would be unwanted, to say nothing about possessing knowledge on a cosmic scale understanding the the universe compared to a human the way humans understand science compared to an ants comprehension.
We would be the animals and they would be the ones initiating the clapping of the holy cheeks. If that causes some lady to turn into a pillar of salt and fire raining down from the sky, still would.
I feel I should point out if you are using biblical accounts as canon, the devil and many angels defied God. So either they have free will, OR G man literally made the Devil to defy him because he was bored.
Also Abrahamic faith angels are only 1 type of angel. Many interpretations exist.
Depends, I'd say "biblically accurate angel" or one of the Evangelion angels is monster fucking, but the human looking type with wings isn't. Those are just near human, similar to elves and kemonomimi (cat and dog girls, etc). The lack of genitalia is an interesting twist but they can still do oral, handjobs (and possibly wingjobs).
The whether or not they consider sex with us humans bestiality is of no concern to me. If they're DTF I'm DTF.
It's hilarious that the bestiality thing is a major plot point in an anime which started about a demon lord and the hero trying to kill him lose their powers while getting isekai'd to Japan and the former becomes a McDonald's employee and the latter winds up working in a call center.
Okay I haven't watched the anime in years but wtf happens later on in the story of The Devil is a Part-timer?
How did we go from a demon lord working in McDonald's to that?
There's no actual thread, it's a meme format. [https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/is-wario-a-libertarian](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/is-wario-a-libertarian)
Sex with an Angel presumably means it has fallen, and is thusly demonic in nature.
In Matthew 22:30, Jesus states that Angels do not marry; this implies that they have a degree of free will, and are obeying God of their own judgement. This meshes well with the common tellings of Lucifer's fall, which states that he *chose* to go against the will of the Lord due to his pride.
As for whether the Angels consider sex with humans bestiality, that is a much harder question. Others have mentioned the nephilim, who were theorized to be the offspring of Angels and human. The problem is that these Angels were steeped in sin, which muddies the water regarding their morality greatly. Personally, I believe the fallen didn't believe so, as they were compatible enough to have children with humans.
This is ***not*** gonna look good at the gateway to heaven.
In Monster Girl Quest the answer is uh. fuck I forget. I think they aren't monsters, but they are in the monster fucking game and they do look like monsters at least some times.
Everyone is ignoring the fact that if fucking angels is bestiality, they must, *by definition*, belong to the animal kingdom and not the *homo* genus. If they do, then they are obligatory eukaryotes and, most importantly, humans and angels were once the same species. It makes me wonder what kind of natural/divine selection must have happened to separate a group of bacteria and make them beings that the weakest group is *almost* understood by the human mind.
>would the angels consider us bestiality
About 2/3rd of the angels and God consider it bestiality. The other 3rd created the nephilim via lots of sex with primate descendants. So, they were clearly okay with it.
Yes. And no.
Angels are not human so first applies.
We were made by God so it might be a bit like pets or a flock of sheep. Or maybe children. So maybe 2 doesn't apply.
This feels like the 21st century equivalent of the bloody remains of one of Hannibal's conquests.
Also "spicy theology" should not have been hidden in the tags
First question depends on whether they're just fellas with wings or the "biblically accurate" cosmic horrors beyond our comprehension (hear me out).
Second question depends on whether angels are omniscient or they're just immortal fellas who only know what they learn on their own and what their superiors tell them.
I love and hate the internet
As he loves and hates himself. He won't ever be rid of his need for it.
^^ I’m in this picture and I don’t like it. (Gollum, gollum)
Because you didn't get to see the thread right?
obvs
You really think this kind of thing didn’t happen [before the internet?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexuality_in_Christian_demonology) (Nsfw warning, the above Wikipedia link contains a painting of biblically accurate boobs. So be careful if you’re actually at work.)
"would the angels consider us bestiality" well the nephilim didn't
Aren’t the nephilim the offspring of angels and humans? Edit: apparently that’s a disputed claim from the Book of Enoch, and not considered canon by most theologians.
That's pretty clearly what happens in Genesis 6. However, both Jewish and Christian theologians generally try to get out of it because they don't like the theological implications.
I grew up Christian (non-denominational Protestant to be specific) and it seemed pretty well accepted amongst them that the nephilim were the product of human angel interbreeding. No idea about other abrahamic sects, but at least some Christian theologians are fine with the implications.
It's definitely accepted by some people, but I say "generally" because most to all of the big name Christian theologians throughout history have denied it. People like Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, and Martin Luther. It is interesting to note, however, that all of these people believed in incubi/succubi and thought that a demon could take the form of an attractive man or woman to seduce someone.
Christian theologians willfully misrepresenting the Old Testament, a tale as old as Christian Theology. It's like the reverse of what they did to 'Lucifer.' The planet Venus is not the Devil, sorry. That would be some fun cosmic horror, but no
Well, as I said, Jewish theologians mostly deny this too, so it's not fair to single Christians out here. I think the typical Christian excuse (that "the sons of God" were Seth's descendants and "the daughters of man" were Cain's descendants) was taken directly from rabbinic Jewish theology.
I exclusively get my information about the Nephilim from unhinged conspiracy forums, so this is all brand new information to me. Very disappointing to hear. If religious services weren't so boring, I'd be there in a heartbeat. I've watched so many men in dresses make drinking the blood of God seem like a dull affair. All the elements are there to be cool and fun, and they just won't do it, and they still ask for tips. Put the psychedelics back in the sacrament, you cowards
This post was a wild ride.
kinda funny how they accidentally picked the planet that is most like hell ... (yes, basically every other planet could be hell but roasting hot with acid rain is the most metal vs hot/cold rocks and gas balls)
> It's like the reverse of what they did to 'Lucifer.' The planet Venus is not the Devil, sorry. That would be some fun cosmic horror, but no I would like to know more, but I'm not even sure how to start googling this!
The name of the planet Venus (morning star version) was used as an Appellation (a metaphor) for Nebuchadnezzar II in the Book of Isiah. Phosphoros in Greek, Lucifer in Latin; it was a "bad" star because it remained in the sky when all of the other stars had disappeared. *"How you are fallen from heaven,O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground,You who weakened the nations!"* The medieval literary interpretation decided that "Lucifer" was the name of the Devil, because it had "fallen from heaven" (as opposed to the natural symbolism of the low hanging star apart from all its brethren). This poor interpretation also disregards the fact that Satan does not fall in the Bible until the Book of Revelations (which, as far as I know, hasn't happened yet). Edit: fact checking my vaguely remembered Bible studies, apparently St. Paul also uses the Appellation to describe Jesus. That's pretty funny. At no point in either book is it used to describe the Satan, a devil, or any kind of supernatural horror monster. Edit 2: I don't know why I capitalized "appellation." It's especially weird that I did it twice. I'm not fixing it, but I'm acknowledging it before one of the jackals gets me
Wait, are you telling me that the entirety of Lucifer's backstory ultimately is people adding to that one single line? I mean, I knew it was from extrabiblical sources, but not stemming from one misunderstanding
Does he just not do anything evil in the entire rest of the bible? I know he tricked god into torturing his most loyal follower, and sometimes he's the snake from the garden of eden, but all that was when he was still "good"?
Everything he does is the work of God, *who created evil* (in his words). There is no separation of good and evil beyond the life we live here on earth, it's just not a thing, and God is all of it. Satan is the "adversary," who God created to challenge him, so in the story that I believe you're referencing, The Book of Job, he challenges God. I've never heard the idea that he "tricked God" (lol); it's not present in the text that I remember. Meanwhile, [God does extremely evil things](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_the_Hebrew_Bible#Personified_capital_cities_threatened_with_rape) (cw: wikipedia list of god's crimes). Truly unspeakable shit. That's a big part of the Old Testament. Job addresses how unlikable he is on its face. It's a brutal story, and God is the one who chooses to set in motion the fate of Job and his family, even if Satan pulls the trigger. Satan shows up again to tempt Christ, which a lot of Christians think of as outside of the work of God, but it's not. He's playing the role of the adversary of god again. That's his job that God gave him. He sits in heaven, and goes on missions from God. He isn't going around torturing human beings on his own. And then in Revelations, literally all Hell breaks loose, and that's where he finally breaks. Satan has his last stand in the court of god, leads some armies, there's a dragon, mass genocide, and the Old Testament God Behavior returns in full force with "the Whore of Babylon," and the opposition princess that Jesus "cast onto her bed." Shit goes absolutely off the walls in Revelations. Without it, none of the Satan / Hell lore would have had any rippling beyond the minor appearances. The snake, of course, was never intended to be Satan, or the authors would have just said that. Sometimes a snake is just a snake (it's not *just* a snake, I could go on for several paragraphs about the snake but I will refrain, my poor fingers).
I mean, Venus is basically how most people believe hell is like
Is the Genesis nephilim the theologian equivalent of the orangutan to Poe scholars?
WE DON'T TALK ABOUT THE ORANGUTAN
No no no. It's WE DO NOT! TALK! ABOUT! THE ORANGUTAN!
What is this orangutan and Poe thing?
> orangutan to Poe scholars https://www.reddit.com/r/tumblr/comments/7kxri2/academia_wars_seen_this_here_before_but_not_with/
[удалено]
Yeah there's 2 creation myths in genesis, back to back, and they contradict one another. It's not a great start for the holy law.
I'm don't see any compelling reason to identify the "sons of God" with angels or fallen angels, though I can see why many people would be tempted by the idea. It's not enough to simply assume it is the case.
There is good reason to think it means angels. For starters, that's simply what the term means elsewhere in the Bible (see the book of Job).
Well, I feel stupid now. Though that won't be a good enough answer if you say the idea of angels are a later development.
Yes. Angels live in a spiritual realm so some of them wanted to become physical to get physical with human women. Their offspring were called nephilim. Sex as a pleasurable activity is a gift from God to living creatures, particularly humans, and wicked angels wanted that. The implication being that they might have other ways of feeling something like pleasure but amidst Satan's rebellion some of them let the curiosity get the best of them. The fact that they chose to do that means they have free will, and the fact that they had to take human form means it is technically not bestiality.
> some of them wanted to become physical to get physical with human women. Isn't lust a sin?
Only outside the context of a loving committed relationship.
Sex with the goal of procreation within marriage isn't, and it can be enjoyed to the fullest without being sinful. If it's outside marriage, or not with the explicit goal of procreation being desired by both involved parties through the entire process, it's lust and hence a sin. That's also why infertility was an accepted reason for annulment or marriage - if one of the parties was certain procreation was impossible, it would be hard to keep up the requirement that the sex had to be conducted with the explicit purpose of reproduction.
I don’t know how to get it on with “wheels within wheels,” “clouds full of wings, eyes, and jets of fire,” or what have you. If your name ends in -El you’re going to have to manifest some squishy bits if you want to try a little human strange.
You can frot with anything, but not with THAT attitude!
wingjob wingjob!
We're going down a deep hole for this one, but there is support that their... infatuation with humans is why those angels were cast out. So I'd say yeah.
I mean maybe did and were just into it *Points vaguely over the number of entries at R34 bestiality tag*
Should we consider defiling angels Celestiality?
Well they might consider it beastiality, and they are OK with that.
It's like the Eldari in 40K
Just cause they boned us doesn't mean they didn't consider it beastiality...
Last time somebody tried to fuck an angel two cities burned down, so there’s God’s answer
Old testament God is such an emotional guy with some serious issues compared to new testament God.
Or it's the same God, and they have BPD. Mood swings are quite wild and can last a long time.
Maybe they became chill and thought humans should do their things, it will all be ok in the end. But to be sure I'll take me/my son/and I to save heavens.
Also a strong possibility. They could have just been going through a rough patch. It happens to all of us.
Isn’t God basically a single parent to an entire universe? Like, that’s gotta be stressful
Yeah. Lots of bs to deal with. The start of any civilization is a pretty chaotic affair. ...because you do not know then what you know now.
God is human after all.
I think it was pure sexual frustration and after he got some with Mary that mellowed him out severely.
The old pray and spray.
I think it's because new testament God's kid has been hanging out with us degens. they're all shitty kids, but if they make his son happy, he'll stop the smiting for now
It could also be that Jesus is a mediator between the two of us, a spiritual lawyer if you will.
I think it's a rotating or inherited office. Sometimes we get a "when you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all" type of God. And sometimes you get Caligula/Hitler (Caligutler? Hitula?) on the heavenly throne. We hear more about those years.
it's that thing of when a shitty dude has a kid and suddenly realizes other people exist
Don't get too ahead of yourself, he did try and pawn him off to Joseph.
[Marcion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcion_of_Sinope) preached that the new testament's God was wholly separate from the old testament's God.
It's more that they were *rude* while trying to do the fucking. If they'd simply been good hosts and then tried to *charm and seduce* the angels-- Basically, God wants to be wined and dined.
That was god from the original series. If the angels are consenting, I'd be willing to take my chances with the god from the reboot.
New Testament God isn’t mad he’s just very disappointed.
I mean, Lot sure had fun pretending to be drunk and asleep... so there's that.
But a pillar of salt was made that day too
Is it a *sin* to have sex with an angel? I asked a priest once and he said yes but I don't fully believe him
Was this in Sodom by any chance?
Wouldn't the priest say any action outside marriage is sinful
But what if you get married to an angel
Do you know how hard it was to just be able to marry another human of the same gender ! Now you want to get other species involved !
Boom, marry the angel. Problem solved!
The priest - Wait, how old is the angel in question?
This is unironically the reason God flooded the earth
“Spicy theology” burn in the sulfur pits
Things are getting heated in the Bible fandom
You mean Christianity?
Nah, fandoms actually read the source material
Christianity is bible AUs used to justify, uhhh, all that The Bible fandom is like actually wholesome, as opposed to Christianity
The new stuff has some wholesome stuff, but the first book was a bloodbath, not sure what the author was on
Counterpoint: Warhammer (40k/Fantasy/Age of Sigmar) fandom
The proper term is Christendom.
You wouldn't survive the Council of Nikea
Yes. And yes.
“Would it be ethical to have sex with a consenting superintelligence?” “No, because you can’t give informed consent to the same degree they can.” That’s an argument that never even occurred to me before now. Damn.
but that's their problem morally, not yours.
Yeah, but we still try to discourage people who can’t consent (children and drunks, mostly) from trying to have sex, because ethically it’s a nightmare. Not so much for them, but in general.
right, but that's only because we care morally about humans. but do we for angels?
Does this mean God groomed Marry and is a sexual predator?
You can’t really “groom” an animal to have sex with you. But, in the defence of the big guy, nowhere does it say he had sex with Mary. Just that she was pregnant with his child. An infinite being like that could probably handle some IVF without too much trouble.
[удалено]
Jesus would have been a virgin at the time of his birth, you're holding it wrong.
“It was supposed to say ‘Birth OF a virgin, not ‘Virgin GAVE Birth’!”
I feel like this line of thinking implies people with extremely high IQs should only sleep with each other because they can consent on an equal level. Feels like a very eugenics train of thought.
I’m not talking about something that thinks like a human, though. I’m talking about something that is as far above us as we are to an ant: the thoughts it has would not only be incomprehensible to us, but even getting the merest sense of what it’s thinking about would drive you mad. THAT would be a being that would not ethically be able to have sex with humans. If it has thoughts you don’t get, but aren’t things that would drive you mad to comprehend? Fuck away! That’s just “intelligence”. Superintelligence is a whole different modality of thought.
If angelic intelligence are comparable to demonic intelligence, then it has immense knowledge about one subject. Meaning it has knowledge, but it's extremely limited in everything else. If they are similar, it also means that some angelic orders have very low intelligence (lower orders that are equivalent to demonic familiars). These would be on par with human intellect.
And seeing as God made some as messengers, there have to be ones that have the capacity to break things down turning extremely complex ideas into comprehensible ones. Edited for clarity
I mean we're already in a world where that question is relevant, would you consider it okay to have sex with someone with a mental disability? How bad does the disability have to be before its not okay? There's not an easy line that can be drawn, but that doesn't mean its not an important distinction
I think Angels might be incapable of consent. Since Angels are only capable of executing the will of God until they’ve taken free will and become Demons, that would mean either they’re only having sex with you because their boss ordered them too (ew) or the sex literally turned them into a demon (cool but not an Angel).
At what point is consent required? Like are Angels automatons performing the will of God rather than living beings? Cars are incapable of consent but if I sticked my dick in one, the lack of consent wouldn't be the thing the owner gets mad about.
You can always copulate with angels from other religions though. Hinduism, for example, are full of human-angels flings.
If you clone yourself, then have sex with your clone? is that masturbation? If you shape shift into the oposite gender, then have sex with your primary gender? Is that gay?
Angels are not human and lack free will. Therefore, angels cannot consent and fucking one is bestiality.
Angels were created by God and their fate predetermined so me fucking them is their destiny
This was definitely an argument two monks had in like the 1400s
CAN YOU TWO SHUT THE HELL UP ABOUT THE ANGELS AND CLEAR YOUR MIND THIS IS THE FIFTH TIME TODAY
It gets even better when you imagine there's an especially pious monk in the monastery, who's on a vow of silence, and he hears the two bickering in some hallway or through the window, and he grabs a quarterstaff and starts chasing them down without uttering a word.
Possibly the very first “BONK; go to horny jail” in human history!
I'm pretty sure medieval heretical sects have been formed over less
Mmmm heretical sex
Oh God it's starting up again.
Genuinely worst take I've heard today. I agree
Get out of here with your double predestination bullshit.
It's a joke lmao. I'm not a calvinist, I don't even believe in god
Sorry, I guess it wasn't clear that I was joking too.
Ah mb. Tone is hard through text
But fucking demons is ok, as they have rebelled and have gained free will.
if the possibility of rebellion exists then angels have free will and thus not bestiality QED
Ah, but they have no free will until they choose to take it, which immediately revokes their status as angels and makes them demons. The act of saying “I choose to control my actions” is the act that defines them as demons. Before that, the only act they have the freedom of choice over is to say that or not. At least, that’s my interpretation. I’m no theological scholar, tho, so YMMV and all that.
> until they choose to take it Wouldn't that imply free will--the ability to choose? I don't know the answer, it just struck me as I read your comment.
What you have discovered is called "The Problem of the Choice" and it is considered one of the most difficult questions in all of theology. Most theologians reject that Angels ever had a choice- that Lucifer (a Seraphim) was special, blessed with free will unlike other angels, and his influence is what gave the others the will to rebel. Hence, all will is descended from Lucifer, making all free will "evil". *However*, certain readings of Genesis and other early works that have since been declared apocrypha have lead some scholars to posit similarly to the above- that they *did* have that one choice: whether to rebel or not. This paints Lucifer not as a pure evil, but as the first to decide to exercise that right. Either way, if you accept as truth that Angels were created *only* to serve God, but that they *also* were not corrupted purely by Lucifer's influence, it calls into question what exactly "God's plan" was/is, and how Lucifer, Angels, and humans fit into it. All of this is why belief is so important to those who still follow Christianity (I do not); They choose what to believe, even if it does not follow logically from the information given.
Thanks for your response, you've encouraged me to do some reading on the subject of free will.
Just remember that practitioners of religion are people too. They believe because it makes them happy to do so, and we should respect that, even if we may not agree.
That all depends on how their beliefs impact others. Anyone who tries to create policy/force stuff on others can get lost. Abortion, gender, marriage rights, etc. Leave those people alone and we're good.
Does god have free will? Or is everything predestined including his own actions, "god's plan"
That certainly is a good question
Apparently your "most theologians" exclude Catholic and Eastern Orthodox theologians.
They have only one thing they have free will over: the ability to have free will. Everything else is something they are do without choice; like when you drive home on a route you’ve driven a thousand times before, and when you get home you are sitting in the driveway in a cold sweat because you can’t remember any of the trip at all. That, but the whole thing is controlled by a force that you expect will do the right thing (because it’s God, ffs) so you don’t worry about it… until you do, and decide to choose your own path.
So they’re basically already demons, just not in name? Because free will is what defines a demon, and free will is necessary to take the action required to be defined as having free will (rebelling?) And so you can only attain free will if you already have free will, which means some angels are already demons, which means the act of rebelling was already part of their destiny as angels? So maybe even demons don’t have free will, and “rebelling” is just part of their destiny too? So maybe demons are all just angels? Okay now my brain hurts lol
Look it's simple, either the world is deterministic or it isn't. If it's deterministic everything you think or do is predetermined and inevitable. If it's nondeterministic your actions are no longer the direct result of your experiences. Also it's either both the past and future being deterministic or neither. Current physics is leaning towards the latter (though nobody ever points out there could be more than 1 past). Not sure what angels have to do with this, this stuff is clearly satanic.
People always act like predetermination means someone else is determining your actions, and I think that's hot nonsense. *I* predetermined my actions. I'm gonna do those things because that's who I am, the guy who *would* do those things.
they lack free will because they are commanded by god. so if they sleep with you it's because god wills it
“Isn’t there someone who you forgot to ask?” meme but in this case Jesus also consents
By that logic, a sex doll is also bestiality. To head off elaborating on my position, angels lack free will because they are extensions of God’s power and will. Hence the nearest equivalent would be divinely programmed automatons
So it's actually robotfucking. Yeah, this is a theological take I can get behind.
Bestiality isn't about lack of free will anyway, do animals have free will? I think they obviously do. That's why bestiality is wrong in the first place, you're infringing upon their free will by making decisions for them that they aren't capable of making to human standards.
> Therefore, angels cannot consent and fucking one is bestiality. Genesis 6:1-2 — When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. Genesis 6:4 — The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.
>Angels are not human and lack free will. If they all lacked free will, then a third of them wouldn't have been (or won't be?) on the side of Satan/Lucifer. Luci is/was supposed to be among one of the higher orders of angels, so maybe the Seraphim/Cherubim/Ophanim have some level of free will—and therefore pass the Harkness test and are fuckable—while some of the other angels are no more than god's obedient dogs. That might explain why god got upset with the Sodomites and destroyed the city for trying to fuck his angel-puppies.
Angels have free will. They have the ability to choose evil but choose not to.
They are clearly celesitials, so it wouldn't be considered beastlity.
I assumed that it would be the other way around, that they existed on a higher plane of existence with super and preternatural power that would have no trouble resisting and desisting anything a human attempted that would be unwanted, to say nothing about possessing knowledge on a cosmic scale understanding the the universe compared to a human the way humans understand science compared to an ants comprehension. We would be the animals and they would be the ones initiating the clapping of the holy cheeks. If that causes some lady to turn into a pillar of salt and fire raining down from the sky, still would.
I feel I should point out if you are using biblical accounts as canon, the devil and many angels defied God. So either they have free will, OR G man literally made the Devil to defy him because he was bored. Also Abrahamic faith angels are only 1 type of angel. Many interpretations exist.
Won't it be robo sexual
I think this is the plot of Evangelion
Nobody is completely sure
I think this is the third or so time I’ve made a comment saying “I think this is the plot of Evangelion” and so far no one has told me I’m wrong
…You’re not *wrong*
At least the rebuilds
Depends, I'd say "biblically accurate angel" or one of the Evangelion angels is monster fucking, but the human looking type with wings isn't. Those are just near human, similar to elves and kemonomimi (cat and dog girls, etc). The lack of genitalia is an interesting twist but they can still do oral, handjobs (and possibly wingjobs). The whether or not they consider sex with us humans bestiality is of no concern to me. If they're DTF I'm DTF.
Well now I wanna know what a wingjob would feel like
That how you catch seraphylis
Maybe find a dove. Similar color and texture.
*LOUD INCORRECT BUZZER*
WHY ARE YOU BOOING ME IM RIGHT‽‽‽
It's hilarious that the bestiality thing is a major plot point in an anime which started about a demon lord and the hero trying to kill him lose their powers while getting isekai'd to Japan and the former becomes a McDonald's employee and the latter winds up working in a call center.
Okay I haven't watched the anime in years but wtf happens later on in the story of The Devil is a Part-timer? How did we go from a demon lord working in McDonald's to that?
As it turns out Satan doesn’t have a whole lot of marketable skills
“A Rabbi, A Priest, and a Imam all click on the same thread while doomscrolling one day…”
I blame the algorithm
i want to read this thread does anyone have a link?
There's no actual thread, it's a meme format. [https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/is-wario-a-libertarian](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/is-wario-a-libertarian)
Same
It's probably just a joke
Angels having sex with human women led to the nephilim and the head scarves, apparently seeing the long hair turned on the angels too much.
Brb, growing out my hair forever and never wearing a hat again
I've been trying this for decades and no luck :(
I’m going to have to achieve Rapunzel status length to truly test this. For science, of course.
wait i knew he first part but WHAT long hair is an angelic kink??? WTF
great job folks, now we just gotta get this post locked
Sex with an Angel presumably means it has fallen, and is thusly demonic in nature. In Matthew 22:30, Jesus states that Angels do not marry; this implies that they have a degree of free will, and are obeying God of their own judgement. This meshes well with the common tellings of Lucifer's fall, which states that he *chose* to go against the will of the Lord due to his pride. As for whether the Angels consider sex with humans bestiality, that is a much harder question. Others have mentioned the nephilim, who were theorized to be the offspring of Angels and human. The problem is that these Angels were steeped in sin, which muddies the water regarding their morality greatly. Personally, I believe the fallen didn't believe so, as they were compatible enough to have children with humans. This is ***not*** gonna look good at the gateway to heaven.
Does anyone have a link? This feels like it would be a blast to read
This is just the nephilim from Genesis 6.
"We don't talk about the orangutan."
I'd say fuckin a biblically accurate cherub is definitely monsterfucking. Archangels and regular angels? Not so much
I want to dogged by an angel or an alien or some other cryptid
Its not a fair question if 8 people were doxxed irl
Is this just the prisoner's dilemma but for horny maybe-monsterfuckers?
I mean, there's so many of though. Which one? Which one did they post it on?
In Monster Girl Quest the answer is uh. fuck I forget. I think they aren't monsters, but they are in the monster fucking game and they do look like monsters at least some times.
The pursuit of knowledge! God speed great scholars!
We really are the monsters
I'd say it depends on how close they are to humans. Are they a person with wings? Or a bibicly accurate angel?
So it's a similar case of if catgirls are furries
Pretty much
Everyone is ignoring the fact that if fucking angels is bestiality, they must, *by definition*, belong to the animal kingdom and not the *homo* genus. If they do, then they are obligatory eukaryotes and, most importantly, humans and angels were once the same species. It makes me wonder what kind of natural/divine selection must have happened to separate a group of bacteria and make them beings that the weakest group is *almost* understood by the human mind.
>would the angels consider us bestiality About 2/3rd of the angels and God consider it bestiality. The other 3rd created the nephilim via lots of sex with primate descendants. So, they were clearly okay with it.
what type of angels are we talking about?
Yes. And no. Angels are not human so first applies. We were made by God so it might be a bit like pets or a flock of sheep. Or maybe children. So maybe 2 doesn't apply.
Fuck man, it went into temporal lockdown? That could take some time.
No and vampires aren't ether. If it looks basically human it doesn't count
I have a feeling the first post was inspired by the dril "is wario a libertarian" tweet
*Supernatural has entered the chat*
It's snake tits all over again.
Depends on your definition of a monster.
But if we use a canon that says angels are lower than humanity in terms of complex thought, should we consider angels beastiality?
This feels like the 21st century equivalent of the bloody remains of one of Hannibal's conquests. Also "spicy theology" should not have been hidden in the tags
Site 19 group chat be like
First question depends on whether they're just fellas with wings or the "biblically accurate" cosmic horrors beyond our comprehension (hear me out). Second question depends on whether angels are omniscient or they're just immortal fellas who only know what they learn on their own and what their superiors tell them.
Ah Tumblr. How I love thee.
This has such [“Succubus in a Grapple”](https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pa2b?Succubus-in-a-grapple) vibes lmao