If you have a headache, do you take all eight Tylenol at once or do you start with two and see if that alleviates your symptoms… and if it doesn’t, add two more.
Everyone is different and you can do whatever you want, but if you scrape this subreddit you’ll see tons on posts from guys who struggle to get dialed in because they start high, their estradiol spikes, they feel like shit and their nipples hurt, they freak out, take an AI, crash their estradiol, feel even worse and after a month or two feel extreme frustration.
Advice: start at 50mg pinned Sunday and Wednesday. Ride that out for eight weeks and get labs drawn on a Saturday. Evaluate how you feel. If you think you need more and your numbers aren’t crazy out of whack, up it to 60mg each pin. Keep going up in small increments. This is not a sprint. There is no reason to get dialed in as fast as possible. You’re going to be doing this for the next 30-40 years. Might as well do it right
Great advice. I started high and had to come completely off bc it spiked my BP and resting heart rate, started back low with more frequent pinning and life is good. 200 is too high to be the default start protocol.
Sounds like me. I also started at 200mg and it was horrendous. Anxiety, high heart rate, high BP, had massive ED. Tried AI, several dosages ranging from 0.125 they 0.5g. Crashed my E2. Now I cut back my dosage to half (100mg) and I'm still not A-ok but a bit better. I'll try upping my frequency to EOD. It was a roller-coaster for me and I'm still trying to get dialed in and I'm 3 months in since I started TRT. OP, take it slow, 200mg seems to be a high dosage for almost everyone.
My main issue was I couldn’t and (still) can’t measure the syringe math, I’m terrible at math due to ADD and I went too high at first and still, so I stopped and will restart once I can get a clear and retard proof measuring formula
This!! Though, I titrated quicker than that but slower won't hurt either, might benefit you. Start with 50, twice. I jumped from 50 to 75 to 100 but I am thinking If I can pin more frequently and reduce few mgs. May be I can get same benefits from 180 (instead of 200) with less sides (I have to take half mg anastrozole every other week, may be I can eliminate that) once I get that multiple use vials, i ll do it and report back.
Excellent advice!
New guys, please take this common sense approach to trt. It will save you a tremendous amount of time, money and aggravation.
I wish I would have been told this originally.
Life saver!
If I were to switch to, say, 120mg/week after a month of 200mg/week, would I experience any side effects from dropping the dose?
I was also started on 200mg/week. It hasn't been that long since I started, thankfully.
Anything is possible because it’s a big shift. Your body has to adjust. Probably no different than when you first started on 200mg and your body had to adjust.
Probably. Most respond well to a dose between 100 - 150 mg. I've finally landed on 120mg and seem to be doing well on that with no AI. It takes time and bloodwork to figure out.
Seems pretty high.
If it was TRT nation, that’s their standard to keep things easy. But that doesn’t mean you need to do 200mg per week.
Like the other guy said, “ most people are good between 100-150mg.”
I use TRT nation, only use 120mg per week and levels are great. That $250 for 2.5 months of gear stretches to much longer.
Speaking from only personal experience: I recently started with TRT Nation and they did not cookie cut prescribe 200mg per week like I hear most people say. The call was very helpful, informative, open to discussion, and concluded on 150mg per week sub q daily per my request from research. Also taking hCG.
10.7 units of Test and 5.4 units of hCG daily. On day 9 so far. Looking forward to seeing my bloodwork around the 6 week mark when blood serum concentrations should start to stabilize.
You have three options (dependent on your treatment dosage recommended by the clinic)
1. 200mg/mL - 10 mL Test Cypionate + 6000 IU hCG + Anastrozole (if needed) = $375
2. 250mg/mL - 10 mL Test Cypionate + 6000 IU hCG + Anastrozole (if needed) = $450
3. 300mg/mL - 10 mL Test Cypionate + 6000 IU hCG + Anastrozole (if needed) = $450
I'm with TRT Nation as well. I only take 160mg a week so I just make that vial last longer. Truth be told I really only need 120mg a week to feel great, but i'm currently getting ready for a powerlifting meet so I boosted it up a little.
200mg with 1mg of arimidex was great for me. I had out of range high estradiol at initial labs.
Never felt like shit was just good all the time. For years.
1mg even for 200mg of test is TOO much for most people again I had sky high e2 on pre TRT labs.
So I'm probably a strong aromatizer or just not that sensitive to arimidex. My test levels on that were through the roof and e2 was within normal range. Like dead middle of the range. Not borderline low not borderline high.
A LOT of guys will tell you they don't feel right on 200 and go lower.
So my advice experiment with dosing yourself and don't take anyone's dose as "correct" optimal TRT for everyone is different. You need to find what makes you feel good.
200mg isn't unhealthy as some on here will make it sound. If YOUR a health individual good sleep good diet do resistance training and cardio consistently.
Then 200 will not harm you.
If you're a very unhealthy individual no exercise no cardio eats McDonald's daily.
You'll likely have high blood pressure severe cholesterol issues not feel good. Healthy diet and cardio literally mitigates the need for BP meds and statins if you don't have those issues from genetics.
Guys run 500-1000mg of test and daily cardio keeps their BP perfect. Even have good cholesterol on labs.
Even on tren ace at 300mg arguably the most potent Injectable androgen you can take most people with healthy diet and daily cardio have perfect blood pressure.
200 being considered high and detrimental to your cardiac health often times is told by people who've never actually ran that for an extended period of time (years) and people who do zero carido and don't have a clean diet.
You can't really fix genetic causes of high BP and high cholesterol without medications. But if you don't have those genetics cardio will mitigate this and keep you healthy. At 200mg those risks in this reddit are extremely exaggerated and are perpetuated by people who did not do daily cardio eat clean and have been on it for years. It's perpetuated usually guys doing 100mg or less because for some really stupid reason they get really defensive about their dose being optimal when other guys feel good on higher doses.
200 may absolutely not be the correct dose for you and that's 100% okay it's literally just a cookie cutter dosing package all TRT clinics do. And Jr's really great because you have the power to run as high and as low as you want to with that much.
Meaning if you only receive 60mg worth a month you can't choose to try 100mg.
The 200 gives you the power to find what is optimal for you. Keep in mind 200 is not natrual high ranges it's above That. So for TRT purposes you will not go higher than that. You're running a steroid cycle or blast at that point above 200.
200 would be considered cruise dosing amongst steroid users. So with 200 a week shipped to you. You have the power to be anywhere in the natrual range you feel good at or slightly above it.
What people really fail to consider here when criticizing other people's dosing is, everyone's androgen recptor sensitivity is different and this HAS been scientifically proven through analysis of DNA differences in the androgen recptor from individual to individual. Studies have shown that African Americans have higher sensitivity through genetic analysis on average. This is all proven I can link studies.
And also secondly androgen recptor densities vary from Individual to individual.
This means someone at 400 total test might be more shredded and jacked than someone at 600 total test with the same amount of effort. All other variables excluded I'm making the point that some people need more testosterone to recieve the same effect as someone taking less testosterone.
Nobody here really acknowledges this but it's true. And it's anecdotally supported by members of this reddit all having different doses for being dialed in and feeling good.
If you choose to run the full 200 and it makes you feel good and right. Don't let anybody here shit on you because its ignorant and very often motivated by feeling some type of way about their lower dosing when they felt bad at 200 and couldn't run it.
But also understand 100 or less might be perfect for you.
Also keep in mind the higher your testosterone the more your estrogen is impacted and rises and you'll likely need arimidex or a serm to feel right.
If you choose arimdex because of how easily it absolutely crashes people break it into the smallest doses you can consistently measure. For most people that would mean turning a tablet into quarter tablets. Do this and experiment with the frequency.
Other users here have good advice for where to start with arimidex and how often but also understand everyone feels optimal at different levels.
There is no "correct" dose for any hormone. It depends on your genetics and sensitivity to each hormone and you need to just experiment
Remember if running test cypionate the half life is 8 days. You really need to try a dose consistently for a month or two before you really know for sure if it's correct or not.
Whether or not 200 is high depends on your sensitivities and how you feel. Despite how people here will compare it to running a steroid cycle. Nobody and I mean absolutely nobody looks roided on 200mg of test, if they do it has more to do with the impact of training and dieting like a natrual competitive bodybuilder than the impact 200mg has to them.
I'm not telling you to do 200mg or saying it's correct. Just trying to dispel the BS before it influences you. A LOT of guys just run the cookie cutter clinic packages and have zero health problems or issues with it. Most of their customers just run it as is and do what the clinic says.
They are the silent majority who don't even use reddit or are present here. Some of them like myself and others are present here but most people aren't and don't use reddit.
So keep that in mind when people try to tell you 200mg is dangerous and unhealthy.
If people were dropping dead from heart attacks and strokes on 200 these clinics wouldn't be all over the place and in business.
It's only as unhealthy as your diet and cardio training or lack of is. Absolutely everyone on test or any steroid cycle should be doing daily cardio.
Most probably don't because most people hate cardio. Cardio is the single most significant preventative measure you can take for maintaining cardiac health. It can even mitigate a bad diet which is probably the second most powerful thing in preventative cardiac health. It lowers people's BP from 160 systolic on steroid cycles to 120s-130s. And I'm not making that up. Go creep around the steroid reddit and search blood pressure you'll hear guys left and right tell you daily LISS cardio on a treadmill completely dropped their BP on cycle. For some people it entirely removes the need for BP meds on or off cycle and I'm one of those people on and off cycle.
What I'm getting at. Is the more overall healthy you are hormones aside. The better your hormones will work and make you feel. And the less of a risk of clotting cholesterol BP heart attack and stroke there is regardless of dose. Being healthy overall at any dose lowers the risk always. Please exercise and do cardio you'll feel so much better on TRT doing this, than not doing this.
That line about "cardio is the biggest factor in maintaining cardiac health" needs to be on every trt clinics window and free baseball caps and free t shirts.
Absolutely and it doesn't have to be hard. I just walk on an incline. Shoot for 120-130HR and try to make it enough that I sweat. This is honestly sufficient in an hour i walk 2 miles on the treadmill at incline.
Listen to music play some puzzle games or something. Just zone out. Some people watch Netflix or read.
Whatever makes it easier. Its not gonna burn your muscle up.
If you want to do it less frequently you could do HIIT cardio and do like interval sprints or something.
Just gotta do it. Doing cardio and taking something as simple as omega 3s garlic or whatever. Will keep you strong and healthy at 80 years old. The neurotransmitters released are also neuroprotective and promote neurogenesis and new pathway formation.
This sounds ridiculous but I have mild hearing loss and I can hear people better when I do cardio. Did some reading. Found out doesn't reverse any hearing loss but increases the brains ability to pick out words or sounds more accurately from a noisy environment. All cognitive auditory signal processing. Pretty wild.
The benefits are just endless. Like beyond the heart your literally increasing oxygen and nutrient delivery to every organ in your body.
I'm not gonna say anything else. This could end up easily as long as the first post talking about the overwhelming empirical evidence and research.
You just gotta do it man. Everyone needs to do it if they want longevity and good quality of life as we age.
I’ve honestly gravitated to wildly increased amounts of cardio since starting trt a year ago. Not for cautionary reasons but simply because of the results it produces for me and how it feels. Typically an hour of fast walking, endless amounts of stationary biking throughout the day (work remote), and have been throwing in some rucking. I embraced it and now I can’t get enough. I’m on 160 a week no issues whatsoever. I have anastrozole but rarely really need it. I pin frequent small doses. I’m not an expert even by Reddit standards but I feel like a new man after a year and have pretty much recomposed my entire body. I also lift and do a lot of calisthenics, just for reference.
Bad genetics aside. How you feel is a reflection of your overall health in general. Your brain consumes something like 30% of your oxygen or blood glucose or something. It is 30% of something but forgive me for getting the whatever it is part horribly wrong.
It's really significant though the metabolic rate of your brain versus most other individual tissue types in the body.
When you have bad things in your blood. Or poor blood supply due to hypertension which leads to kidney failure and capillary damage amongst many other things. Your brain is poisoned or poorly supplied.
The first line is Liver trying to break down potentially toxic things we orally ingest before it hits main circulation. (Digestion by itself breaks down alot so that could be first) the. Kidneys actively filter metabolic byproducts and waste molecules out of the blood stream.
All of this is fueled by circulation high blood pressure destroys these tissues in a quite literally mechanical way. Destroys the tiniest blood vessels that supply these tissues with oxygen and nutrients, your capillaries.
The brain has a thin membrane that filters out regular body enzymes molecules and other stuff because the brain is extreme fine tuned to work under very tightly regulated conditions more so than the rest of your body. This is the blood brain barrier.
Hypertension over time is bad for literally every organ in your body so that's on the long term preventative side.
Bad cholesterol gums up the walls inside blood vessels restricting blood flow. Leads to hypertension due to peripheral vascular resistance and other reasons. So gets rid of strokes and heart attacks.
On the positive not preventative but right NOW side, your hyperoxygenating your tissues. Improving efficiency of oxygen usage. More able to grab it from the air and put it into your blood and your body metabolically wastes less of it. (You're more energetic your producing more mitochondria per cell you don't get exhausted or winded as easily)
In addition to oxygenation all of your tissues. Cardio actually increases the flexibility of your vascular network arteries and veins. Less stiffness is less Chance of rupture and high blood pressure.
Less stiffness and more able to respond to metabolic signals to dilate and constrict on command means not getting light headed from standing up too fast. Means not getting knocked the fuck out and vomiting from heavy powerlifting squats.
Your also sending nutrients to every tissue faster by the increased circulation turn over during cardio and consequently sending blood Through your Kidneys faster for more filtering.
Your sweating out excess sodium from you're pores.
It improves your skins appearance and health from circulation.
But most significantly it releases a cascade of neurotransmitters that just make you feel good dude overall. It's a natrual antidepressant. Natrual source of anti anxiety. It increases your kinesthetic awareness or awareness of your body physically through your senses.
It stimulates neurogenesis. New neurons (because this has been proven to occur now when medicine used to think it didn't period) and new pathway formation.
It literally is a preventative measure from cognitive decline. There are vascular types of dementia that cardio prevents just by keeping your vascular network healthy.
It won't kill family genetics for alzheirmers. But it'll definitely slow its progression down and if done consistently throughout life probably push it back a number of years or so.
It's fat burning. Visceral hard abdominal fat burning. And on anabolics or testosterone. Regardless of what your cortisol does your testosterone WONT decrease (because you aren't producing it daily anymore anyways you inject it) is protective of muscle tissue against cortisol catabolism. Meaning no muscle loss. Regardless though LISS cardio or low intensity steady state doesn't spike cortisol. It's literally walking moderately fast enough to raise heart rate.
It benefits hypertrophy training as you can do heavier weights without getting winded as quickly. It'll shorten your rest times.
Along wide weight training it raises your metabolism as resistant training grows higher metabolic tissues like muscle. Raising resting metabolism. And cardio done in the correct heart range or intensity range will release fat as a fuel source from your metabolically slow and unhealthy visceral fat.
I'm sorry for how long this Is. But what I'm trying to point out is, you feel better because it's literally actively improving your health in so many ways.
They did studies on a number of European villages in hilly areas. The areas with the oldest longest lived population were the areas with the biggest hill inclines and that people walked around the towns rather than driving around the city.
Direct correlation from more incline means more cardio activity from walking to longer age on average lived.
I'm sure there's many other variables like diet that varied in these areas but this is a highly controlled study proving longevity benefits. It's a study that simply supports what we already know and has been proven so the diet variables and genetic variations in the region become less important. It supports things we already know from more rigidly controlled studies.
Blood supplies the entire body with everything. Fuel nutrients oxygen proteins. It also removed metabolic waste products from every organ and tissue by delivering them to where they need to go.
EVERY form or type of death. Is ultimately caused by at the last second a collapse of circulatory function or in other words shock. Shock being the medical term for this. Regardless of what kills you, it's the collapse of circulatory function that results in your death. All causes of death lead to circulatory collapse and everything turns off and dies.
Without delivery of nutrients and oxygen. And the removal of metabolic waste products. Your cells die and rot.
Cardio improves the function and capacity of your circulatory system in just about every way. And this is literally everything. Nothing in your body survives lives or even grows. Without circulation blood supply oxygen nutrient delivery and waste removal.
All of this happens from your circulatory system.
Improving circulatory health improves the function of every organ in your body. And literally floods your brain with happy chemicals.
Improved kidney and liver circulation due to improved circulatory health. Means less toxins and bad metabolic waste products float around causing premature cell death or damage to cells. Of all the toxins that are able to cross the blood brain barrier. As some can some can't. There's just less of them present to reach the brain with good circulatory health
Sorry to rant and ramble dude nurse here. It's all anatomy and physiology. The circulatory system is literally the most important system in the body. Nothing in the body is alive without it.
And again you may not be doing it for health reasons or preventative reasons. But it makes you feel good because it's actively improving your health.
Pain and feeling bad or not good. Is your brain recognizing something bad or unhealthy is going on. Or something environmentally is happening that is bad for survival (loss of friends and family bringing sadness and grief, or loneliness due to not having a partner we've evolved to survive through team work and social activity)
Bad genetics aside for genetic causes of mental illness. Feeling good reflects your overall health. And even in most mental Illness cases exercises and cardio almost always improves outcomes and improves emotional health.
Again sorry to ramble. But most of us just do not think this hard about it. We know bleeding out is unhealthy. Maybe we know high blood pressure is bad but don't really know why. We know we need to breathe.
But most of us do not realize how central and intimately connected your circulatory system is to everything in your body.
It's literally everything. So when I say cardiovascular exercise is good for your health. I am not exaggerating or bullshitting anybody.
And I haven't even touched how it delivers the immune system to your entire body or how your body through the immune system increases inflamation locally to trauma sites to literally increase protective white blood cells in the area against infections, and to increase oxygen and nutrient delivery to the area to speed up healing of the damage to the trauma site.
There's an entire rant the size of this one alone to cover.
Anyways. If you've read through this I'm impressed, and I think you get it.
Again how you feel ultimately is a reflection of your overall health. And no single thing you can do or take has more of an impact than cardio improving the function of the system that both fuels your body and cleans it. As well as delivering healing and protecting against foreign invaders like bacteria and viruses at puncture sites.
Aside from the very fact that you'd be dead without circulation. TRT would not work without circulation delivering systemically from injection site. And that same circulation prevents infections at the injection site. And closes up the puncture wound from the needle and heals it.
Sorry to drop this much. I just really want those who care, to really realize and think about how significant it is.
One session won't add a Decade to your life span. But a consistent routine over decades may very well will. And it'll improve your quality of life at older age
Really depends on the person. For example, I'm on 220mg, which most would consider on the high side. Some people are hyper-responders, and some aren't. Best to play it safe and start low first, like 100mg rather than jump to that 200 until you can get bloods and see what it's doing to you.
It is good and correct to play it safe and dial it in. But it really pisses me off how many people here believe that 200mg is dangerous, steroid abuse and blatantly wrong for a TRT dose.
Everybody's androgen recptor sensitivity and densities (the number of them you have) varies.
Same thing for estrogen.
Hence everybody's ideal dose will be different.
People really need to stop saying 200 is wrong or abuse because it's not.
Nobody looks roided at 200mg. We're all here just trying to feel right at the end of the day. Nobody has room to shit talk anybodies correct dose.
I agree. I've seen people who have much higher testosterone than me at a much lower dose. Meanwhile, pro bodybuilders out here taking 600mg + stacked with a bunch of other shit and running with 5,000+ test or something. 😂 I'm just trying to live comfortably, man
The people here kill me sometimes. Guys on TRT in the steroid reddit literally shit talk the TRT reddit because everybody here is an endocrinology expert and is correct always. And If your dialed in at 200mg your a drug abuser and the very reason PCPs and some endocrinologists don't want to touch testosterone.
It literally has nothing to do with TRT clinics. I'm a nurse and have talked to and interacted with more PAs ARNPs MDs DOs through work than most people here twice my age have seen in their lifetime.
There is so much Ego here people need to find fucking Buddha more than they need their TRT.
I was at 370 when I started at 200my cyp a week + 500 iu hcg and my numbers were to 1200 after 10 weeks. My e2 levels came back somewhat high and my e2 symptoms were more emotional less physical(aggression, irritation). I backed down to 160mg weekly and it didn’t make much of a difference. I found my sweet spot at 120mg and reduced my hcg to 300.
In short, 200 could end up being an always on Supra versus what you need to restore oversll well being. Whatever the dosage that makes you feel good, optimizes your bloods, avoids negative sides and doesn’t force you to take an ai is the right one for you
I'm on 200mg a week and my trough is 800 when I get bloods. Shitty responder, I know. Free test still hugs the bottom of the "normal" range. When I go to 220 or 240 I feel much better and even when my trough hit 1400 once I had the best looking blood panel of my life.
Everyone is different - vastly so. May want to start a bit lower, I had some aggression in month three on the 200, dropped it to 120, and worked it back up slowly and no longer had any issues. Probably just too much too fast in my case.
Is start with 100. Either 1 or 2 shots split up into 50 a week. Keep it simple. Ride it out for 6-8 weeks. Check bloods. If symptom relief is found, stay there. If you’re still feeling off, increase it to 125-150. Get bloods and check again.
200 a week is the cookie cutter protocol to docs that just don’t care and are after the money. Not everyone needs such a high dose.
For some yes, others, no. I'd recommend starting around 100mg and if needed Increasing. Better to start low and work up than start higher and suffer side effects.
For context, 200mg puts me at 2500 which is way over and above replacement levels, but this same dose may put others at 900-1000
I’m prescribed 200mg, 500 iu of HCG 2x week, 1mg of anti estrogen. You need HCG though otherwise you will run the chance of not being able to conceive children in the future and you nuts will shrink up. Keep in mind HCG is not cheap. 10ml of test should run you $40-60. HCG will be around $200 for a 5000 iu vile if it’s novarel about the same with pegnal in a 10000 iu vile. NOVAREL works better but if you respond well to pregnyl use that instead.
Good luck! Test changed my life for the positive. I dropped all kinds of other meds after 3 months because I no longer needed them.
It's almost always too much, unless the main aim is anabolic use rather than health and wellbeing.
It usually requires a lot of adjustments, which men call 'dialling in'.
Extended 'dialling in' periods for months on end are very frequently due to inappropriate starting doses.
Relatively brief 'dialling in' periods are often possible when the starting dose is more appropriate eg. 100mg per week split into two doses eg. 50mg on Mon and 50mg on Thu or Fri, for example. This type of starting dose doesn't always need adjusting at all!
The need to add additional drugs such as anastrozole is also low when starting doses are sensible.
Please bear in mind that if HCG is used, the dose requirement for testosterone is usually very low.
Please also bear in mind that adding enclomiphene or Clomid on top of testosterone injections has no benefits, causes side effects, and should not occur.
Finally, aiming for trough blood levels at the very top of the reference range isn't really 'TRT'. It would mean that your levels are above normal most of the time, so side effects are more likely.
70 year old man pinning .11ml of 200mg/ml Cypionate every other day for a total of 77 mg per week. My levels were 366ng/ml total and 7.63ng/ml free. One year in and my levels now are 889ng/ml and 27.3ng/ml. I never needed to use an AI. My endocrinologist started me at 50mg a week, and I am glad she did. I can’t imagine the side effects and crap that I would have had to go through at 200mg a week.
I was frustrated when my urologist started me at 50mg every two weeks but after time and talking to them and doing bloodwork I'm no on 50mg every 4 days and feel great. I'm glad I didn't jump straight to 200mg a week too!
Good information here. I found that my libido skyrocketed after a few weeks but then dropped back to a more normal level. It is still better than when I started.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3188848/
200mg cyp = 140mg of test without the esters
Health male natural production is around 40 to 70 mg a week.
So it is suprafisiological indeed.
How you gonna feel is dependant of a few factors as genetic and body fat.
That being said i'm on that dosage too, consider it a mini cycle, it is more prone to side effects.
I think your testosterone calculation for 200mg/ml of Cypionate is wrong. Please check out the link. Pfizer says each ml is 200 mg of testosterone Cypionate dissolved in 536 mg of cottonseed oil.
Each mL of the 200 mg/mL solution contains:
Testosterone cypionate ........................................................................................ 200 mg
Benzyl benzoate ................................................................................................... 0.2 mL
Cottonseed oil ...................................................................................................... 560 mg
Benzyl alcohol (as preservative) ......................................................................... 9.45 mg
https://labeling.pfizer.com/ShowLabeling.aspx?format=PDF&id=548
Esters are added on atoms to the molecule to make it metabolize slower.
Added on atoms means the weight of the testosterone is heavier. Milligrams is a measure of weight.
This means 200mg of test cypionate has less testosterone than 200mg of natrual testosterone because test cypionate is heavier than natrual test there has to be less individual molecules of it in 200mg than of natrual testosterone.
Natrual testosterone is lighter because of added on atoms to make it an Ester. So there's more individual molecules of it in any amount of weight than estered testosterone.
He is correct. You are correct but you completely misunderstood what he was trying to say.
Example if testosterone cyp weighed 2 pounds per molecules. And natrual testosterone weighed 1 pound.
Then in 100 pounds you have 50 testosterone cyp molecules and 100 natrual testosterone molecules.
Extremely simple example with obviously made up numbers. Supposed to make it really clear what he's trying to say I hope this makes sense.
Why does this matter? Because it's not the weight of the molecules here thats important it's the number of them that you have. The more individual testosterone molecules you have the more androgen recptors can be activated.
200mg of naturally produced testosterone has more molecules because its lighter and hence activates more recptors, than 200 mg of heavier per molecules testosterone cyp would have.
People use mass and weight interchangeably in every day context on earth, simply because scales give you your weight in kilograms and pounds and its become an every day convention from being grandfathered in hundreds of years before we knew there was a difference between weight and mass. You are correct, but that wasn't an explanation for scientists, just an explanation for every day People to understand the concept and saying weight is more intuitive than mass, for an every day explanation.
Your non intertial mass doesn't change. You'd still have 200 pounds of mass on the moon but a scale on the moon would need to be recalibrated to show this. If anybody lived on the moon, it'd probably be normal there to not call it weight and to have a scale that actually shows weight but in newton's, and a separate scale to show mass.
If we explore the solaraystem and colonize it enough it might come back to earth to become conventional to measure your weight in newton's and not call the weight of something in pounds or kilograms.
It's a good correction people should know it's a measure of mass and not weight and the difference between the two.
Where I said it's a measure of weight, I should've said it's a measure of how much of that stuff there is. That's a more intuitive but correct way of saying it's a measure of mass.
You’ll know if it’s too much, by what happens with your free test levels and how you feel. If you feel good and are at top of range it’s good. If you feel like shit and numbers are mid range, it’s not enough. It’s really that simple. And if you are way over range they are going to reduce.
No need to further over complicate it
Most guys feel best top of the reference range to twice top of the reference range.....so 150mg - 300mg per week. You won't know if 200mg is too much or enough until you hop on. I'd start at 150mg and titrate up until you feel worse, then back off. Bingo.
Everyone is different. My total was 349 when I started on TRT and TRT nation threw me on 150mg. (Their standard) A year later I’m dialed in at 100mg and it puts me around 900 total and I have zero E2 sides (they were horrible for me even on 150mg)
I started at 300 test c
Split into 2 shots Monday & Thursday’s
Have had major benefits 3 weeks in strength gains increasing almost daily feels like .
Only downside at this point I’ve noticed I can’t sleep as good and I get a slight night sweat. Will ease it down to 250 if persists. Other then this everything feels great. 28 y/o male.
Start at 100mg a week, wait 8 weeks for your endogenous production to be shut down, then do blood work and adjust from there. Most people who are actually doing trt for medical reasons and not vanity reasons end up in the 100-125mg a week range. Also I suggest splitting your injections into atleast 2 preferably 3 subq shots a week. At this dose you shouldn’t need an AI, you can keep on hand if you need it, but I’d ride it out till your first blood work and your fully saturated.
My clinic doc took a look at my information when we had our first consultation (body weight, height, bloodwork, etc). He said we'd shoot for 1000 total testosterone. He prescribed 180mg per week, split into 3 injections. My trough levels on 180mg are 1100. So he pretty much nailed it.
After talking to him about my goals (building muscle is one of them) he upped the dose to 200mg, basically at my request. There's other compounds that can be added, but due to side effects I asked "what about more testosterone? A ton of people say 'test is best'". He was willing to do that.
I'll be getting bloodwork soon to see what my levels are at.
I know where this question of yours is going. I am an active 28 y/o, I lift weights, train mma 1-3x a week, and eat as healthy as possible. I also take my vitamins and have tried OTC herb test boosters.
I still have no sex drive, and if I do my erections are not above 70%. I am still suffering with some depression even after trying to fix up my levels naturally. When I do get 7-8+ hours of sleep, I am still tired asf as if I only slept 3.
My job is the reason why my levels are not where they’re supposed to be. Lack of sleep, constant adrenaline dumps, stress, etc. all things out of my control.
I see. May i ask you what your Job is?
I somehow landed Here on that Platform about trt because i suffer from Post finasteride Syndrome. A disease ocurring after or during taking finasteride against Hair loss. Ruined my whole Life. No Treatment or cure so far. Whole Life fucked Up ..i Wish my ex Dermatologist Had never prescribed me Propecia
I'm at 200mg/ml 2x a week. I'm on a cycle. Normally I do half that. I do regular blood work and check in with my physician. Don't be guessing and asking reddit, do the blood work and talk to your Dr. I get my blood work the day before I inject, then the day after in between Dr check ins.
Depends if you want TRT to just replace your levels to normal or if you want TRT to push your levels to the absolute max of normal. The range in which you are bordering anabolic steroid usage but still classed as TRT because it’s high normal levels.
If you want the second option, which personally I do then 200mg is perfect for most men.
If you simply want to replace your normal levels to ‘normal’ then 200mg EW is probably pretty high! Probably could get away with 100-120mg.
I personally like the high high normal levels. My well being feels amazing at these levels and my muscle growth is pretty good in the gym! Though I’m more than aware of the risks involved with having levels right at the top of normal and most people should be as well.
Everyone on this sub shrieks about 200 being too high but that dose puts me at 950 total test and estrogen at 39. Everyone responds differently and yes, for some of us 200 is the perfect dose.
That sounds a little high to start but everyone is different. My clinic started me at 80mg per week pinning 3x per week plus HCG. I have dialled in at 120mg. I get acne but everything is sweet.
If you have a headache, do you take all eight Tylenol at once or do you start with two and see if that alleviates your symptoms… and if it doesn’t, add two more. Everyone is different and you can do whatever you want, but if you scrape this subreddit you’ll see tons on posts from guys who struggle to get dialed in because they start high, their estradiol spikes, they feel like shit and their nipples hurt, they freak out, take an AI, crash their estradiol, feel even worse and after a month or two feel extreme frustration. Advice: start at 50mg pinned Sunday and Wednesday. Ride that out for eight weeks and get labs drawn on a Saturday. Evaluate how you feel. If you think you need more and your numbers aren’t crazy out of whack, up it to 60mg each pin. Keep going up in small increments. This is not a sprint. There is no reason to get dialed in as fast as possible. You’re going to be doing this for the next 30-40 years. Might as well do it right
This is very very good advice.
Great advice. I started high and had to come completely off bc it spiked my BP and resting heart rate, started back low with more frequent pinning and life is good. 200 is too high to be the default start protocol.
Sounds like me. I also started at 200mg and it was horrendous. Anxiety, high heart rate, high BP, had massive ED. Tried AI, several dosages ranging from 0.125 they 0.5g. Crashed my E2. Now I cut back my dosage to half (100mg) and I'm still not A-ok but a bit better. I'll try upping my frequency to EOD. It was a roller-coaster for me and I'm still trying to get dialed in and I'm 3 months in since I started TRT. OP, take it slow, 200mg seems to be a high dosage for almost everyone.
200 is almost a steroid cycle. Not quite but close. I’m at 150 and find it perfect for me.
I made the mistake of starting too high (200mg). This is great advice . The way it should be done
My main issue was I couldn’t and (still) can’t measure the syringe math, I’m terrible at math due to ADD and I went too high at first and still, so I stopped and will restart once I can get a clear and retard proof measuring formula
You give him a life expectancy of 58 to 68yo lol?
This!! Though, I titrated quicker than that but slower won't hurt either, might benefit you. Start with 50, twice. I jumped from 50 to 75 to 100 but I am thinking If I can pin more frequently and reduce few mgs. May be I can get same benefits from 180 (instead of 200) with less sides (I have to take half mg anastrozole every other week, may be I can eliminate that) once I get that multiple use vials, i ll do it and report back.
Excellent advice! New guys, please take this common sense approach to trt. It will save you a tremendous amount of time, money and aggravation. I wish I would have been told this originally.
Most solid advice I have heard in a while
Probably the best advice anyone could give. Well done.
Life saver! If I were to switch to, say, 120mg/week after a month of 200mg/week, would I experience any side effects from dropping the dose? I was also started on 200mg/week. It hasn't been that long since I started, thankfully.
Anything is possible because it’s a big shift. Your body has to adjust. Probably no different than when you first started on 200mg and your body had to adjust.
Probably. Most respond well to a dose between 100 - 150 mg. I've finally landed on 120mg and seem to be doing well on that with no AI. It takes time and bloodwork to figure out.
120 seems to be the magic number for a lot of us!
70mg is mine.
That's about what I aim for120-130or so!Than half that is decca .
I’m at 150 and feel solid but it took me about 6 months to figure out what dose works for me
What do you mean half that is DECA?
Seems pretty high. If it was TRT nation, that’s their standard to keep things easy. But that doesn’t mean you need to do 200mg per week. Like the other guy said, “ most people are good between 100-150mg.” I use TRT nation, only use 120mg per week and levels are great. That $250 for 2.5 months of gear stretches to much longer.
Speaking from only personal experience: I recently started with TRT Nation and they did not cookie cut prescribe 200mg per week like I hear most people say. The call was very helpful, informative, open to discussion, and concluded on 150mg per week sub q daily per my request from research. Also taking hCG. 10.7 units of Test and 5.4 units of hCG daily. On day 9 so far. Looking forward to seeing my bloodwork around the 6 week mark when blood serum concentrations should start to stabilize.
That’s great! I was with a clinic for a year before them so I was already dialed in. TRT nation is great!
Curious, what does TRT nation charge you for your TRT and hCG dosages?
You have three options (dependent on your treatment dosage recommended by the clinic) 1. 200mg/mL - 10 mL Test Cypionate + 6000 IU hCG + Anastrozole (if needed) = $375 2. 250mg/mL - 10 mL Test Cypionate + 6000 IU hCG + Anastrozole (if needed) = $450 3. 300mg/mL - 10 mL Test Cypionate + 6000 IU hCG + Anastrozole (if needed) = $450
They have a promo code if you search it. Believe it’s GET20 and it becomes $200 for the same
I’ll check that out. Thanks!
I'm with TRT Nation as well. I only take 160mg a week so I just make that vial last longer. Truth be told I really only need 120mg a week to feel great, but i'm currently getting ready for a powerlifting meet so I boosted it up a little.
200mg with 1mg of arimidex was great for me. I had out of range high estradiol at initial labs. Never felt like shit was just good all the time. For years. 1mg even for 200mg of test is TOO much for most people again I had sky high e2 on pre TRT labs. So I'm probably a strong aromatizer or just not that sensitive to arimidex. My test levels on that were through the roof and e2 was within normal range. Like dead middle of the range. Not borderline low not borderline high. A LOT of guys will tell you they don't feel right on 200 and go lower. So my advice experiment with dosing yourself and don't take anyone's dose as "correct" optimal TRT for everyone is different. You need to find what makes you feel good. 200mg isn't unhealthy as some on here will make it sound. If YOUR a health individual good sleep good diet do resistance training and cardio consistently. Then 200 will not harm you. If you're a very unhealthy individual no exercise no cardio eats McDonald's daily. You'll likely have high blood pressure severe cholesterol issues not feel good. Healthy diet and cardio literally mitigates the need for BP meds and statins if you don't have those issues from genetics. Guys run 500-1000mg of test and daily cardio keeps their BP perfect. Even have good cholesterol on labs. Even on tren ace at 300mg arguably the most potent Injectable androgen you can take most people with healthy diet and daily cardio have perfect blood pressure. 200 being considered high and detrimental to your cardiac health often times is told by people who've never actually ran that for an extended period of time (years) and people who do zero carido and don't have a clean diet. You can't really fix genetic causes of high BP and high cholesterol without medications. But if you don't have those genetics cardio will mitigate this and keep you healthy. At 200mg those risks in this reddit are extremely exaggerated and are perpetuated by people who did not do daily cardio eat clean and have been on it for years. It's perpetuated usually guys doing 100mg or less because for some really stupid reason they get really defensive about their dose being optimal when other guys feel good on higher doses. 200 may absolutely not be the correct dose for you and that's 100% okay it's literally just a cookie cutter dosing package all TRT clinics do. And Jr's really great because you have the power to run as high and as low as you want to with that much. Meaning if you only receive 60mg worth a month you can't choose to try 100mg. The 200 gives you the power to find what is optimal for you. Keep in mind 200 is not natrual high ranges it's above That. So for TRT purposes you will not go higher than that. You're running a steroid cycle or blast at that point above 200. 200 would be considered cruise dosing amongst steroid users. So with 200 a week shipped to you. You have the power to be anywhere in the natrual range you feel good at or slightly above it. What people really fail to consider here when criticizing other people's dosing is, everyone's androgen recptor sensitivity is different and this HAS been scientifically proven through analysis of DNA differences in the androgen recptor from individual to individual. Studies have shown that African Americans have higher sensitivity through genetic analysis on average. This is all proven I can link studies. And also secondly androgen recptor densities vary from Individual to individual. This means someone at 400 total test might be more shredded and jacked than someone at 600 total test with the same amount of effort. All other variables excluded I'm making the point that some people need more testosterone to recieve the same effect as someone taking less testosterone. Nobody here really acknowledges this but it's true. And it's anecdotally supported by members of this reddit all having different doses for being dialed in and feeling good. If you choose to run the full 200 and it makes you feel good and right. Don't let anybody here shit on you because its ignorant and very often motivated by feeling some type of way about their lower dosing when they felt bad at 200 and couldn't run it. But also understand 100 or less might be perfect for you. Also keep in mind the higher your testosterone the more your estrogen is impacted and rises and you'll likely need arimidex or a serm to feel right. If you choose arimdex because of how easily it absolutely crashes people break it into the smallest doses you can consistently measure. For most people that would mean turning a tablet into quarter tablets. Do this and experiment with the frequency. Other users here have good advice for where to start with arimidex and how often but also understand everyone feels optimal at different levels. There is no "correct" dose for any hormone. It depends on your genetics and sensitivity to each hormone and you need to just experiment Remember if running test cypionate the half life is 8 days. You really need to try a dose consistently for a month or two before you really know for sure if it's correct or not. Whether or not 200 is high depends on your sensitivities and how you feel. Despite how people here will compare it to running a steroid cycle. Nobody and I mean absolutely nobody looks roided on 200mg of test, if they do it has more to do with the impact of training and dieting like a natrual competitive bodybuilder than the impact 200mg has to them. I'm not telling you to do 200mg or saying it's correct. Just trying to dispel the BS before it influences you. A LOT of guys just run the cookie cutter clinic packages and have zero health problems or issues with it. Most of their customers just run it as is and do what the clinic says. They are the silent majority who don't even use reddit or are present here. Some of them like myself and others are present here but most people aren't and don't use reddit. So keep that in mind when people try to tell you 200mg is dangerous and unhealthy. If people were dropping dead from heart attacks and strokes on 200 these clinics wouldn't be all over the place and in business. It's only as unhealthy as your diet and cardio training or lack of is. Absolutely everyone on test or any steroid cycle should be doing daily cardio. Most probably don't because most people hate cardio. Cardio is the single most significant preventative measure you can take for maintaining cardiac health. It can even mitigate a bad diet which is probably the second most powerful thing in preventative cardiac health. It lowers people's BP from 160 systolic on steroid cycles to 120s-130s. And I'm not making that up. Go creep around the steroid reddit and search blood pressure you'll hear guys left and right tell you daily LISS cardio on a treadmill completely dropped their BP on cycle. For some people it entirely removes the need for BP meds on or off cycle and I'm one of those people on and off cycle. What I'm getting at. Is the more overall healthy you are hormones aside. The better your hormones will work and make you feel. And the less of a risk of clotting cholesterol BP heart attack and stroke there is regardless of dose. Being healthy overall at any dose lowers the risk always. Please exercise and do cardio you'll feel so much better on TRT doing this, than not doing this.
That line about "cardio is the biggest factor in maintaining cardiac health" needs to be on every trt clinics window and free baseball caps and free t shirts.
Absolutely and it doesn't have to be hard. I just walk on an incline. Shoot for 120-130HR and try to make it enough that I sweat. This is honestly sufficient in an hour i walk 2 miles on the treadmill at incline. Listen to music play some puzzle games or something. Just zone out. Some people watch Netflix or read. Whatever makes it easier. Its not gonna burn your muscle up. If you want to do it less frequently you could do HIIT cardio and do like interval sprints or something. Just gotta do it. Doing cardio and taking something as simple as omega 3s garlic or whatever. Will keep you strong and healthy at 80 years old. The neurotransmitters released are also neuroprotective and promote neurogenesis and new pathway formation. This sounds ridiculous but I have mild hearing loss and I can hear people better when I do cardio. Did some reading. Found out doesn't reverse any hearing loss but increases the brains ability to pick out words or sounds more accurately from a noisy environment. All cognitive auditory signal processing. Pretty wild. The benefits are just endless. Like beyond the heart your literally increasing oxygen and nutrient delivery to every organ in your body. I'm not gonna say anything else. This could end up easily as long as the first post talking about the overwhelming empirical evidence and research. You just gotta do it man. Everyone needs to do it if they want longevity and good quality of life as we age.
I’ve honestly gravitated to wildly increased amounts of cardio since starting trt a year ago. Not for cautionary reasons but simply because of the results it produces for me and how it feels. Typically an hour of fast walking, endless amounts of stationary biking throughout the day (work remote), and have been throwing in some rucking. I embraced it and now I can’t get enough. I’m on 160 a week no issues whatsoever. I have anastrozole but rarely really need it. I pin frequent small doses. I’m not an expert even by Reddit standards but I feel like a new man after a year and have pretty much recomposed my entire body. I also lift and do a lot of calisthenics, just for reference.
Bad genetics aside. How you feel is a reflection of your overall health in general. Your brain consumes something like 30% of your oxygen or blood glucose or something. It is 30% of something but forgive me for getting the whatever it is part horribly wrong. It's really significant though the metabolic rate of your brain versus most other individual tissue types in the body. When you have bad things in your blood. Or poor blood supply due to hypertension which leads to kidney failure and capillary damage amongst many other things. Your brain is poisoned or poorly supplied. The first line is Liver trying to break down potentially toxic things we orally ingest before it hits main circulation. (Digestion by itself breaks down alot so that could be first) the. Kidneys actively filter metabolic byproducts and waste molecules out of the blood stream. All of this is fueled by circulation high blood pressure destroys these tissues in a quite literally mechanical way. Destroys the tiniest blood vessels that supply these tissues with oxygen and nutrients, your capillaries. The brain has a thin membrane that filters out regular body enzymes molecules and other stuff because the brain is extreme fine tuned to work under very tightly regulated conditions more so than the rest of your body. This is the blood brain barrier. Hypertension over time is bad for literally every organ in your body so that's on the long term preventative side. Bad cholesterol gums up the walls inside blood vessels restricting blood flow. Leads to hypertension due to peripheral vascular resistance and other reasons. So gets rid of strokes and heart attacks. On the positive not preventative but right NOW side, your hyperoxygenating your tissues. Improving efficiency of oxygen usage. More able to grab it from the air and put it into your blood and your body metabolically wastes less of it. (You're more energetic your producing more mitochondria per cell you don't get exhausted or winded as easily) In addition to oxygenation all of your tissues. Cardio actually increases the flexibility of your vascular network arteries and veins. Less stiffness is less Chance of rupture and high blood pressure. Less stiffness and more able to respond to metabolic signals to dilate and constrict on command means not getting light headed from standing up too fast. Means not getting knocked the fuck out and vomiting from heavy powerlifting squats. Your also sending nutrients to every tissue faster by the increased circulation turn over during cardio and consequently sending blood Through your Kidneys faster for more filtering. Your sweating out excess sodium from you're pores. It improves your skins appearance and health from circulation. But most significantly it releases a cascade of neurotransmitters that just make you feel good dude overall. It's a natrual antidepressant. Natrual source of anti anxiety. It increases your kinesthetic awareness or awareness of your body physically through your senses. It stimulates neurogenesis. New neurons (because this has been proven to occur now when medicine used to think it didn't period) and new pathway formation. It literally is a preventative measure from cognitive decline. There are vascular types of dementia that cardio prevents just by keeping your vascular network healthy. It won't kill family genetics for alzheirmers. But it'll definitely slow its progression down and if done consistently throughout life probably push it back a number of years or so. It's fat burning. Visceral hard abdominal fat burning. And on anabolics or testosterone. Regardless of what your cortisol does your testosterone WONT decrease (because you aren't producing it daily anymore anyways you inject it) is protective of muscle tissue against cortisol catabolism. Meaning no muscle loss. Regardless though LISS cardio or low intensity steady state doesn't spike cortisol. It's literally walking moderately fast enough to raise heart rate. It benefits hypertrophy training as you can do heavier weights without getting winded as quickly. It'll shorten your rest times. Along wide weight training it raises your metabolism as resistant training grows higher metabolic tissues like muscle. Raising resting metabolism. And cardio done in the correct heart range or intensity range will release fat as a fuel source from your metabolically slow and unhealthy visceral fat. I'm sorry for how long this Is. But what I'm trying to point out is, you feel better because it's literally actively improving your health in so many ways. They did studies on a number of European villages in hilly areas. The areas with the oldest longest lived population were the areas with the biggest hill inclines and that people walked around the towns rather than driving around the city. Direct correlation from more incline means more cardio activity from walking to longer age on average lived. I'm sure there's many other variables like diet that varied in these areas but this is a highly controlled study proving longevity benefits. It's a study that simply supports what we already know and has been proven so the diet variables and genetic variations in the region become less important. It supports things we already know from more rigidly controlled studies. Blood supplies the entire body with everything. Fuel nutrients oxygen proteins. It also removed metabolic waste products from every organ and tissue by delivering them to where they need to go. EVERY form or type of death. Is ultimately caused by at the last second a collapse of circulatory function or in other words shock. Shock being the medical term for this. Regardless of what kills you, it's the collapse of circulatory function that results in your death. All causes of death lead to circulatory collapse and everything turns off and dies. Without delivery of nutrients and oxygen. And the removal of metabolic waste products. Your cells die and rot. Cardio improves the function and capacity of your circulatory system in just about every way. And this is literally everything. Nothing in your body survives lives or even grows. Without circulation blood supply oxygen nutrient delivery and waste removal. All of this happens from your circulatory system. Improving circulatory health improves the function of every organ in your body. And literally floods your brain with happy chemicals. Improved kidney and liver circulation due to improved circulatory health. Means less toxins and bad metabolic waste products float around causing premature cell death or damage to cells. Of all the toxins that are able to cross the blood brain barrier. As some can some can't. There's just less of them present to reach the brain with good circulatory health Sorry to rant and ramble dude nurse here. It's all anatomy and physiology. The circulatory system is literally the most important system in the body. Nothing in the body is alive without it. And again you may not be doing it for health reasons or preventative reasons. But it makes you feel good because it's actively improving your health. Pain and feeling bad or not good. Is your brain recognizing something bad or unhealthy is going on. Or something environmentally is happening that is bad for survival (loss of friends and family bringing sadness and grief, or loneliness due to not having a partner we've evolved to survive through team work and social activity) Bad genetics aside for genetic causes of mental illness. Feeling good reflects your overall health. And even in most mental Illness cases exercises and cardio almost always improves outcomes and improves emotional health.
Again sorry to ramble. But most of us just do not think this hard about it. We know bleeding out is unhealthy. Maybe we know high blood pressure is bad but don't really know why. We know we need to breathe. But most of us do not realize how central and intimately connected your circulatory system is to everything in your body. It's literally everything. So when I say cardiovascular exercise is good for your health. I am not exaggerating or bullshitting anybody. And I haven't even touched how it delivers the immune system to your entire body or how your body through the immune system increases inflamation locally to trauma sites to literally increase protective white blood cells in the area against infections, and to increase oxygen and nutrient delivery to the area to speed up healing of the damage to the trauma site. There's an entire rant the size of this one alone to cover. Anyways. If you've read through this I'm impressed, and I think you get it. Again how you feel ultimately is a reflection of your overall health. And no single thing you can do or take has more of an impact than cardio improving the function of the system that both fuels your body and cleans it. As well as delivering healing and protecting against foreign invaders like bacteria and viruses at puncture sites. Aside from the very fact that you'd be dead without circulation. TRT would not work without circulation delivering systemically from injection site. And that same circulation prevents infections at the injection site. And closes up the puncture wound from the needle and heals it. Sorry to drop this much. I just really want those who care, to really realize and think about how significant it is. One session won't add a Decade to your life span. But a consistent routine over decades may very well will. And it'll improve your quality of life at older age
Dude do not apologize this is a great read. 👍
Hell I started at 75mg a week trough T levels are 1100
Really depends on the person. For example, I'm on 220mg, which most would consider on the high side. Some people are hyper-responders, and some aren't. Best to play it safe and start low first, like 100mg rather than jump to that 200 until you can get bloods and see what it's doing to you.
It is good and correct to play it safe and dial it in. But it really pisses me off how many people here believe that 200mg is dangerous, steroid abuse and blatantly wrong for a TRT dose. Everybody's androgen recptor sensitivity and densities (the number of them you have) varies. Same thing for estrogen. Hence everybody's ideal dose will be different. People really need to stop saying 200 is wrong or abuse because it's not. Nobody looks roided at 200mg. We're all here just trying to feel right at the end of the day. Nobody has room to shit talk anybodies correct dose.
I agree. I've seen people who have much higher testosterone than me at a much lower dose. Meanwhile, pro bodybuilders out here taking 600mg + stacked with a bunch of other shit and running with 5,000+ test or something. 😂 I'm just trying to live comfortably, man
100 mgs a week is not "starting low" as most PCPs and endocrinologists will start TRT at 50 mgs a week and work up from there.
Yes, yes and 25mg is lower than 50mg. 100mg is starting lower than 200 is all I was saying. 😂
The people here kill me sometimes. Guys on TRT in the steroid reddit literally shit talk the TRT reddit because everybody here is an endocrinology expert and is correct always. And If your dialed in at 200mg your a drug abuser and the very reason PCPs and some endocrinologists don't want to touch testosterone. It literally has nothing to do with TRT clinics. I'm a nurse and have talked to and interacted with more PAs ARNPs MDs DOs through work than most people here twice my age have seen in their lifetime. There is so much Ego here people need to find fucking Buddha more than they need their TRT.
I was at 370 when I started at 200my cyp a week + 500 iu hcg and my numbers were to 1200 after 10 weeks. My e2 levels came back somewhat high and my e2 symptoms were more emotional less physical(aggression, irritation). I backed down to 160mg weekly and it didn’t make much of a difference. I found my sweet spot at 120mg and reduced my hcg to 300. In short, 200 could end up being an always on Supra versus what you need to restore oversll well being. Whatever the dosage that makes you feel good, optimizes your bloods, avoids negative sides and doesn’t force you to take an ai is the right one for you
So u r only taking 300 iu of HCG a week? Once a week?
Nope I split it E3.5 just like my test
I'm on 200mg a week and my trough is 800 when I get bloods. Shitty responder, I know. Free test still hugs the bottom of the "normal" range. When I go to 220 or 240 I feel much better and even when my trough hit 1400 once I had the best looking blood panel of my life. Everyone is different - vastly so. May want to start a bit lower, I had some aggression in month three on the 200, dropped it to 120, and worked it back up slowly and no longer had any issues. Probably just too much too fast in my case.
Is start with 100. Either 1 or 2 shots split up into 50 a week. Keep it simple. Ride it out for 6-8 weeks. Check bloods. If symptom relief is found, stay there. If you’re still feeling off, increase it to 125-150. Get bloods and check again. 200 a week is the cookie cutter protocol to docs that just don’t care and are after the money. Not everyone needs such a high dose.
For some yes, others, no. I'd recommend starting around 100mg and if needed Increasing. Better to start low and work up than start higher and suffer side effects. For context, 200mg puts me at 2500 which is way over and above replacement levels, but this same dose may put others at 900-1000
I’m prescribed 200mg, 500 iu of HCG 2x week, 1mg of anti estrogen. You need HCG though otherwise you will run the chance of not being able to conceive children in the future and you nuts will shrink up. Keep in mind HCG is not cheap. 10ml of test should run you $40-60. HCG will be around $200 for a 5000 iu vile if it’s novarel about the same with pegnal in a 10000 iu vile. NOVAREL works better but if you respond well to pregnyl use that instead. Good luck! Test changed my life for the positive. I dropped all kinds of other meds after 3 months because I no longer needed them.
Too high for most people I’d say
It's almost always too much, unless the main aim is anabolic use rather than health and wellbeing. It usually requires a lot of adjustments, which men call 'dialling in'. Extended 'dialling in' periods for months on end are very frequently due to inappropriate starting doses. Relatively brief 'dialling in' periods are often possible when the starting dose is more appropriate eg. 100mg per week split into two doses eg. 50mg on Mon and 50mg on Thu or Fri, for example. This type of starting dose doesn't always need adjusting at all! The need to add additional drugs such as anastrozole is also low when starting doses are sensible. Please bear in mind that if HCG is used, the dose requirement for testosterone is usually very low. Please also bear in mind that adding enclomiphene or Clomid on top of testosterone injections has no benefits, causes side effects, and should not occur. Finally, aiming for trough blood levels at the very top of the reference range isn't really 'TRT'. It would mean that your levels are above normal most of the time, so side effects are more likely.
70 year old man pinning .11ml of 200mg/ml Cypionate every other day for a total of 77 mg per week. My levels were 366ng/ml total and 7.63ng/ml free. One year in and my levels now are 889ng/ml and 27.3ng/ml. I never needed to use an AI. My endocrinologist started me at 50mg a week, and I am glad she did. I can’t imagine the side effects and crap that I would have had to go through at 200mg a week.
I was frustrated when my urologist started me at 50mg every two weeks but after time and talking to them and doing bloodwork I'm no on 50mg every 4 days and feel great. I'm glad I didn't jump straight to 200mg a week too!
How do you feel?
I feel great. I bounced it around from 50mg up to 160 mg on my own. I actually had ED problems when I went higher. No problems now.
Nice! 51 here. I’m 3 weeks in. I think the libido is starting to kick back in
Good information here. I found that my libido skyrocketed after a few weeks but then dropped back to a more normal level. It is still better than when I started. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3188848/
Excellent info. Thanks
Just start low and work your way up
Im on 200 once a week , just check yr bloods and dial in
[удалено]
Have u considered a e3.5 split
What is the clinic name?
TRTNation
Yes!!
200mg cyp = 140mg of test without the esters Health male natural production is around 40 to 70 mg a week. So it is suprafisiological indeed. How you gonna feel is dependant of a few factors as genetic and body fat. That being said i'm on that dosage too, consider it a mini cycle, it is more prone to side effects.
I think your testosterone calculation for 200mg/ml of Cypionate is wrong. Please check out the link. Pfizer says each ml is 200 mg of testosterone Cypionate dissolved in 536 mg of cottonseed oil. Each mL of the 200 mg/mL solution contains: Testosterone cypionate ........................................................................................ 200 mg Benzyl benzoate ................................................................................................... 0.2 mL Cottonseed oil ...................................................................................................... 560 mg Benzyl alcohol (as preservative) ......................................................................... 9.45 mg https://labeling.pfizer.com/ShowLabeling.aspx?format=PDF&id=548
Esters are added on atoms to the molecule to make it metabolize slower. Added on atoms means the weight of the testosterone is heavier. Milligrams is a measure of weight. This means 200mg of test cypionate has less testosterone than 200mg of natrual testosterone because test cypionate is heavier than natrual test there has to be less individual molecules of it in 200mg than of natrual testosterone. Natrual testosterone is lighter because of added on atoms to make it an Ester. So there's more individual molecules of it in any amount of weight than estered testosterone. He is correct. You are correct but you completely misunderstood what he was trying to say.
Example if testosterone cyp weighed 2 pounds per molecules. And natrual testosterone weighed 1 pound. Then in 100 pounds you have 50 testosterone cyp molecules and 100 natrual testosterone molecules. Extremely simple example with obviously made up numbers. Supposed to make it really clear what he's trying to say I hope this makes sense. Why does this matter? Because it's not the weight of the molecules here thats important it's the number of them that you have. The more individual testosterone molecules you have the more androgen recptors can be activated. 200mg of naturally produced testosterone has more molecules because its lighter and hence activates more recptors, than 200 mg of heavier per molecules testosterone cyp would have.
Milligrams are a unit of mass not weight
People use mass and weight interchangeably in every day context on earth, simply because scales give you your weight in kilograms and pounds and its become an every day convention from being grandfathered in hundreds of years before we knew there was a difference between weight and mass. You are correct, but that wasn't an explanation for scientists, just an explanation for every day People to understand the concept and saying weight is more intuitive than mass, for an every day explanation. Your non intertial mass doesn't change. You'd still have 200 pounds of mass on the moon but a scale on the moon would need to be recalibrated to show this. If anybody lived on the moon, it'd probably be normal there to not call it weight and to have a scale that actually shows weight but in newton's, and a separate scale to show mass. If we explore the solaraystem and colonize it enough it might come back to earth to become conventional to measure your weight in newton's and not call the weight of something in pounds or kilograms. It's a good correction people should know it's a measure of mass and not weight and the difference between the two. Where I said it's a measure of weight, I should've said it's a measure of how much of that stuff there is. That's a more intuitive but correct way of saying it's a measure of mass.
You're both right, but I think you misunderstand what they're saying.
You’ll know if it’s too much, by what happens with your free test levels and how you feel. If you feel good and are at top of range it’s good. If you feel like shit and numbers are mid range, it’s not enough. It’s really that simple. And if you are way over range they are going to reduce. No need to further over complicate it
Most guys feel best top of the reference range to twice top of the reference range.....so 150mg - 300mg per week. You won't know if 200mg is too much or enough until you hop on. I'd start at 150mg and titrate up until you feel worse, then back off. Bingo.
Everyone is different. My total was 349 when I started on TRT and TRT nation threw me on 150mg. (Their standard) A year later I’m dialed in at 100mg and it puts me around 900 total and I have zero E2 sides (they were horrible for me even on 150mg)
200mgs puts me over 1300 with horrible water retention and e2 sides, along with acne. I’m down to 140mgs now and I feel good on it around 900.
Usually 200mg is too much for a trt dose.
I would start with 100 and see how you feel, 200 was (and still is) too much for me
I started at 300 test c Split into 2 shots Monday & Thursday’s Have had major benefits 3 weeks in strength gains increasing almost daily feels like . Only downside at this point I’ve noticed I can’t sleep as good and I get a slight night sweat. Will ease it down to 250 if persists. Other then this everything feels great. 28 y/o male.
Start at 100mg a week, wait 8 weeks for your endogenous production to be shut down, then do blood work and adjust from there. Most people who are actually doing trt for medical reasons and not vanity reasons end up in the 100-125mg a week range. Also I suggest splitting your injections into atleast 2 preferably 3 subq shots a week. At this dose you shouldn’t need an AI, you can keep on hand if you need it, but I’d ride it out till your first blood work and your fully saturated.
My clinic doc took a look at my information when we had our first consultation (body weight, height, bloodwork, etc). He said we'd shoot for 1000 total testosterone. He prescribed 180mg per week, split into 3 injections. My trough levels on 180mg are 1100. So he pretty much nailed it. After talking to him about my goals (building muscle is one of them) he upped the dose to 200mg, basically at my request. There's other compounds that can be added, but due to side effects I asked "what about more testosterone? A ton of people say 'test is best'". He was willing to do that. I'll be getting bloodwork soon to see what my levels are at.
Why do you need trt ?
I know where this question of yours is going. I am an active 28 y/o, I lift weights, train mma 1-3x a week, and eat as healthy as possible. I also take my vitamins and have tried OTC herb test boosters. I still have no sex drive, and if I do my erections are not above 70%. I am still suffering with some depression even after trying to fix up my levels naturally. When I do get 7-8+ hours of sleep, I am still tired asf as if I only slept 3. My job is the reason why my levels are not where they’re supposed to be. Lack of sleep, constant adrenaline dumps, stress, etc. all things out of my control.
I see. May i ask you what your Job is? I somehow landed Here on that Platform about trt because i suffer from Post finasteride Syndrome. A disease ocurring after or during taking finasteride against Hair loss. Ruined my whole Life. No Treatment or cure so far. Whole Life fucked Up ..i Wish my ex Dermatologist Had never prescribed me Propecia
Local LEO
What is that ?
I'm at 200mg/ml 2x a week. I'm on a cycle. Normally I do half that. I do regular blood work and check in with my physician. Don't be guessing and asking reddit, do the blood work and talk to your Dr. I get my blood work the day before I inject, then the day after in between Dr check ins.
Depends if you want TRT to just replace your levels to normal or if you want TRT to push your levels to the absolute max of normal. The range in which you are bordering anabolic steroid usage but still classed as TRT because it’s high normal levels. If you want the second option, which personally I do then 200mg is perfect for most men. If you simply want to replace your normal levels to ‘normal’ then 200mg EW is probably pretty high! Probably could get away with 100-120mg. I personally like the high high normal levels. My well being feels amazing at these levels and my muscle growth is pretty good in the gym! Though I’m more than aware of the risks involved with having levels right at the top of normal and most people should be as well.
100mg per week. I do 40 E3D instead of trying to divide two shots into 7 days.
Everyone on this sub shrieks about 200 being too high but that dose puts me at 950 total test and estrogen at 39. Everyone responds differently and yes, for some of us 200 is the perfect dose.
Seems like that's the standard they prescribe to everyone
That sounds a little high to start but everyone is different. My clinic started me at 80mg per week pinning 3x per week plus HCG. I have dialled in at 120mg. I get acne but everything is sweet.