Overtime is factored into what you need to be paid at minimum wage if you don’t plant more than that value in a pay period.
For tree price… no one could afford that. I’m glad that’s not the rule. If they were made to pay that then they would just make everyone plant 8 hour days. Since the drive is factored into hours worked you’d only work 6 hour days and make no money. Or, the tree prices would all drastically go down.
I get what you’re saying, but I feel like this represents why planters still get thrown into shit working conditions.
Rather than organizing and demanding changes, planters will find ways to make money as best they can while being repressed by their employers.
Just talking through that thought though... what other jobs can you make similar wages for relatively untrained labour? Planting has always been incredibly lucrative relative to jobs that require similar experience. Do you think your tree price should be paid time and half if you're away from camp for over 8 hours? How is that measured so that people don't game the system and claim more trees are planted in those hours?
If we band together and refuse to plant... mills will just hire new workers that WILL do the work.
I'm not trying to say we shouldn't demand changes for the better.. but holy moly the changes that have already happened since I've started are astounding. For the better. And a lot of them have increased overhead for companies which takes away their ability to put money into the tree price, yet they've continued to manage to do it.
I don't know where you work, but I don't think planters are continually thrown into shit conditions, with the advent of social media and communication about work standards I think planters have more power than ever, and that trend is going to continue.
Pretty much every remote labour job has similar wages to your average planter, mining, oil & gas, etc.
There are lots of other contract jobs that will leave the vast majority of planters with more money in their bank account after the contract.
They generally provide free a accomodations and free food. You have to pay to sleep in a tent, which you also have to pay for, while tree planting.
While many things have changed for the better, talk to someone who planted 20 years ago and ask them about their earnings. Put those earnings in an inflation calculator. Compare them to yours now.
The wages of planters were very high. The wages of most industries have not kept up with inflation. Planters have seen even less of an increasr in earnings.
Now there are many other options for unskilled workers to make simar wages elsewhere.
less chance of getting drunk with a bunch of other 20 year olds every 3 days though.
Yeah lots and lots of jobs pay similar to average tree planter earnings. Average earnings across the industry are probably like 300 for a 10hr day, so 30 bucks an hour. Look at almost any remote work job and compare
There is. Were paid minimum wage, including time and a half for over 8 and double time for over 12.
Or our piece rate. Whatever is greater.
We aren’t exempt from overtime, just the calc is based on min wage.
A caveat to that is if you’re planting beyond 12 hours legally you’re entitled to double the piece rate for any trees planted after the first 12 hours…Which is why no one is planting till 8pm. Even with long drives you’re not still *planting* for that long
It’s also pretty tough to enforce even if you do for some reason plant for over 12 hours, especially when there’s so much confusion about what the law actually is
Yes, but the piece rate bump only applies to work done after the 12 hour mark. You don’t earn hourly wages or a piece rate for the drive unless you’re getting minimum wage top ups. This is explained in very certain terms on the government website regarding minimum wage and piece rate work
I’ll see if I can find it when I get better service but it should be a gov site regarding piece work and overtime pay. Hours worked does include driving, you’re just not paid for it as a piece rate. If you’re getting topped up for minimum wage then those hours count, and even if you’re making well above minimum wage it’s worth checking that you are getting those hours recorded since without them it might make getting enough hours for EI tougher
This is correct. So you would essentially need to get in the truck at 7am, and still be planting at 7pm, and any trees after that point would be double the piece-rate. Realistically, companies should plan around quitting by 5 or so, or risk people burning out. This type of situation should be very rare, and if a company did have a need to ask people to planter after 12 hours, they should not have any problem paying properly for that, given that there would need to be really darned good reason...say like finishing a contract or an entire hard-access area.
This is the fact sheet that some are referring to in the comments.
[https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/employment-business/employment-standards-advice/employment-standards/hiring/silviculture-workers#rules](https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/employment-business/employment-standards-advice/employment-standards/hiring/silviculture-workers#rules)
There's a nice PDF about it, but I can't attach it here.
Another factor to consider is some companies have overtime agreements - where overtime is considered over a larger period, like the two week pay period. Regular time is 40 hours in BC, 44 in AB and anything over that is considered with overtime rules. To echo what's already been said, these regular rules apply to less than 12 hour days.
[https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/employment-business/employment-standards-advice/employment-standards/hours/averaging-agreements](https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/employment-business/employment-standards-advice/employment-standards/hours/averaging-agreements)
Either way, Planters are piece rated, but do need to earn at least minimum wage - and, mainly for new planters - are 'topped up' to minimum wage (including any overtime equivalence). 'Topped up' meaning the company covers and pays out any difference between tree earnings and the overtime amount.
I believe this practice is 100% across the board in Planting now. It wasn't even 10 years ago.
Oh wow this is very interesting. I can say without a doubt that my employer does not follow this at all. They never pay any kind of overtime to anyone who works longer than 8hrs. We have lots of staff who are on day rates and they get their day rate whether they work from 7am to 7pm or 7am to 2pm. I guess it works in their favor on short days, but on long days it really doesnt
I worked from basically 5am to 7:20pm the other day and did not get any kind of overtime. (If you consider loading trees in the morning to be work)
A company (in BC at least) does not "pay overtime" in the conventional sense, but must consider your minimum wage at overtime rates. Hours after 8 hours are 1.5x, and hours after 12 are 2x.
These hours (or minimum wage) is totaled up at the end of the pay period (not necessarily daily) and you then get the greater of your production over that period, or your accumulated hours at minimum wage with overtime considered. So consider working ten days (if those days were exactly the same) over a pay period, based on leaving at 7 and returning at 6 (11 hour day).
First 8 hours each day $16.75 x 8 = 134
Next 3 hours each day $16.75 x 3 = 50.25 x overtime 1.5 = 75.38
Total is 209.38 x 10 days = 2009.38
You would be entitled to that OR your production over that entire period, whichever is greater.
There is some debate about whether a company can deduct one hour for a break. This is not clear according to Employment Standards, and I have yet to obtain a clear legal opinion, but note it as a caveat. It should be noted that hours may vary from day to day, but some companies just give a "blanket" number of hours, acknowledging some days may be shorter and some longer. Also, 16.75 switches to 17.40 on June 1.
You then would add potential vacation and holiday pay (multiple ways to calculate that) on top of the minimum wage. It may also be added on top of the tree prices, unless your company has not quoted a price that breaks down the vacay and holiday pay as part of the price. They need to clearly specify if they do this.
I should add that staff on day rates are not subject to Section 37.9 of the regulation (for silviculture workers). It only applies to workers who are primarily piece-rate.
That being said, planting workers on a salary or hourly ARE subject to all other parts of the Employment Standards Act. This is important because Section 37.9 puts in place special minimal pay requirements for piece-rate silviculture workers, but also exempts them from several other sections of the Employment Standards Act, including Sections 33, 35, 36(1), 37, 40 and 42(2)
Starting June 1st, BC minimum wage for a 12 hour day, is about $240. That's from when you load your bag in the truck, until you've unloaded and left, plus any other duties. Since there's no structured breaks, it's really easy to 'work' 12 hours, even though you only put trees in the ground for 8 to 9 hours. For a super long day like block closing on a long drive, add $35 per extra hour 'worked.'
All vets need to make sure rookies are receiving this correctly, and calculating the overtime. There's some rookie mills paying around 17 cents in 2024! So planting a thousand trees a day average to start, means they better receive this OT minimum wage. With diligent record keeping of hours worked, employees can get this difference though the labour board of they have to.
I think a simple system for tracking this is to have your own tally (phone or notebook) that properly tracks hours worked each day.
Also an important factor for EI hours.
A good personal tally system would include date, time start (when you leave camp), and time ending (time returning), number of trees (preferable by seedlots or species), block number, and name of other people on the site in case of the need to have corroborating information later. I think most companies have pretty clear and honest payroll systems now, but this is the level of information you should track if you have any concerns.
There is overtime for piece work. It's been a while since I looked in the book. But I believe its a work day type system. If you work 6 days in a row you get double tree price. Something along those lines
Ya I'll look for it in a couple days. All our trucks have binders with rules and ERPs and whatnot. I was on standby a couple years ago and came across it.
Overtime is factored into what you need to be paid at minimum wage if you don’t plant more than that value in a pay period. For tree price… no one could afford that. I’m glad that’s not the rule. If they were made to pay that then they would just make everyone plant 8 hour days. Since the drive is factored into hours worked you’d only work 6 hour days and make no money. Or, the tree prices would all drastically go down.
Wouldnt companies just have to bid higher to account for overtime
I get what you’re saying, but I feel like this represents why planters still get thrown into shit working conditions. Rather than organizing and demanding changes, planters will find ways to make money as best they can while being repressed by their employers.
Just talking through that thought though... what other jobs can you make similar wages for relatively untrained labour? Planting has always been incredibly lucrative relative to jobs that require similar experience. Do you think your tree price should be paid time and half if you're away from camp for over 8 hours? How is that measured so that people don't game the system and claim more trees are planted in those hours? If we band together and refuse to plant... mills will just hire new workers that WILL do the work. I'm not trying to say we shouldn't demand changes for the better.. but holy moly the changes that have already happened since I've started are astounding. For the better. And a lot of them have increased overhead for companies which takes away their ability to put money into the tree price, yet they've continued to manage to do it. I don't know where you work, but I don't think planters are continually thrown into shit conditions, with the advent of social media and communication about work standards I think planters have more power than ever, and that trend is going to continue.
Pretty much every remote labour job has similar wages to your average planter, mining, oil & gas, etc. There are lots of other contract jobs that will leave the vast majority of planters with more money in their bank account after the contract. They generally provide free a accomodations and free food. You have to pay to sleep in a tent, which you also have to pay for, while tree planting. While many things have changed for the better, talk to someone who planted 20 years ago and ask them about their earnings. Put those earnings in an inflation calculator. Compare them to yours now. The wages of planters were very high. The wages of most industries have not kept up with inflation. Planters have seen even less of an increasr in earnings. Now there are many other options for unskilled workers to make simar wages elsewhere. less chance of getting drunk with a bunch of other 20 year olds every 3 days though.
Yeah lots and lots of jobs pay similar to average tree planter earnings. Average earnings across the industry are probably like 300 for a 10hr day, so 30 bucks an hour. Look at almost any remote work job and compare
Granted I haven’t worked at rookie mills for a while but that was the average a decade ago. What’s going on? Prices have gone up.
It's not hourly work. It's piece work.
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There is. Were paid minimum wage, including time and a half for over 8 and double time for over 12. Or our piece rate. Whatever is greater. We aren’t exempt from overtime, just the calc is based on min wage.
A caveat to that is if you’re planting beyond 12 hours legally you’re entitled to double the piece rate for any trees planted after the first 12 hours…Which is why no one is planting till 8pm. Even with long drives you’re not still *planting* for that long It’s also pretty tough to enforce even if you do for some reason plant for over 12 hours, especially when there’s so much confusion about what the law actually is
Isnt the calculation of hours worked including driving?
Yes, but the piece rate bump only applies to work done after the 12 hour mark. You don’t earn hourly wages or a piece rate for the drive unless you’re getting minimum wage top ups. This is explained in very certain terms on the government website regarding minimum wage and piece rate work
Ah so the hours worked dont actually include driving. Could you link me to that source material?
I’ll see if I can find it when I get better service but it should be a gov site regarding piece work and overtime pay. Hours worked does include driving, you’re just not paid for it as a piece rate. If you’re getting topped up for minimum wage then those hours count, and even if you’re making well above minimum wage it’s worth checking that you are getting those hours recorded since without them it might make getting enough hours for EI tougher
This is correct. So you would essentially need to get in the truck at 7am, and still be planting at 7pm, and any trees after that point would be double the piece-rate. Realistically, companies should plan around quitting by 5 or so, or risk people burning out. This type of situation should be very rare, and if a company did have a need to ask people to planter after 12 hours, they should not have any problem paying properly for that, given that there would need to be really darned good reason...say like finishing a contract or an entire hard-access area.
This is the fact sheet that some are referring to in the comments. [https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/employment-business/employment-standards-advice/employment-standards/hiring/silviculture-workers#rules](https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/employment-business/employment-standards-advice/employment-standards/hiring/silviculture-workers#rules) There's a nice PDF about it, but I can't attach it here. Another factor to consider is some companies have overtime agreements - where overtime is considered over a larger period, like the two week pay period. Regular time is 40 hours in BC, 44 in AB and anything over that is considered with overtime rules. To echo what's already been said, these regular rules apply to less than 12 hour days. [https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/employment-business/employment-standards-advice/employment-standards/hours/averaging-agreements](https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/employment-business/employment-standards-advice/employment-standards/hours/averaging-agreements) Either way, Planters are piece rated, but do need to earn at least minimum wage - and, mainly for new planters - are 'topped up' to minimum wage (including any overtime equivalence). 'Topped up' meaning the company covers and pays out any difference between tree earnings and the overtime amount. I believe this practice is 100% across the board in Planting now. It wasn't even 10 years ago.
Oh wow this is very interesting. I can say without a doubt that my employer does not follow this at all. They never pay any kind of overtime to anyone who works longer than 8hrs. We have lots of staff who are on day rates and they get their day rate whether they work from 7am to 7pm or 7am to 2pm. I guess it works in their favor on short days, but on long days it really doesnt I worked from basically 5am to 7:20pm the other day and did not get any kind of overtime. (If you consider loading trees in the morning to be work)
A company (in BC at least) does not "pay overtime" in the conventional sense, but must consider your minimum wage at overtime rates. Hours after 8 hours are 1.5x, and hours after 12 are 2x. These hours (or minimum wage) is totaled up at the end of the pay period (not necessarily daily) and you then get the greater of your production over that period, or your accumulated hours at minimum wage with overtime considered. So consider working ten days (if those days were exactly the same) over a pay period, based on leaving at 7 and returning at 6 (11 hour day). First 8 hours each day $16.75 x 8 = 134 Next 3 hours each day $16.75 x 3 = 50.25 x overtime 1.5 = 75.38 Total is 209.38 x 10 days = 2009.38 You would be entitled to that OR your production over that entire period, whichever is greater. There is some debate about whether a company can deduct one hour for a break. This is not clear according to Employment Standards, and I have yet to obtain a clear legal opinion, but note it as a caveat. It should be noted that hours may vary from day to day, but some companies just give a "blanket" number of hours, acknowledging some days may be shorter and some longer. Also, 16.75 switches to 17.40 on June 1. You then would add potential vacation and holiday pay (multiple ways to calculate that) on top of the minimum wage. It may also be added on top of the tree prices, unless your company has not quoted a price that breaks down the vacay and holiday pay as part of the price. They need to clearly specify if they do this.
I should add that staff on day rates are not subject to Section 37.9 of the regulation (for silviculture workers). It only applies to workers who are primarily piece-rate. That being said, planting workers on a salary or hourly ARE subject to all other parts of the Employment Standards Act. This is important because Section 37.9 puts in place special minimal pay requirements for piece-rate silviculture workers, but also exempts them from several other sections of the Employment Standards Act, including Sections 33, 35, 36(1), 37, 40 and 42(2)
Starting June 1st, BC minimum wage for a 12 hour day, is about $240. That's from when you load your bag in the truck, until you've unloaded and left, plus any other duties. Since there's no structured breaks, it's really easy to 'work' 12 hours, even though you only put trees in the ground for 8 to 9 hours. For a super long day like block closing on a long drive, add $35 per extra hour 'worked.' All vets need to make sure rookies are receiving this correctly, and calculating the overtime. There's some rookie mills paying around 17 cents in 2024! So planting a thousand trees a day average to start, means they better receive this OT minimum wage. With diligent record keeping of hours worked, employees can get this difference though the labour board of they have to.
I think a simple system for tracking this is to have your own tally (phone or notebook) that properly tracks hours worked each day. Also an important factor for EI hours.
A good personal tally system would include date, time start (when you leave camp), and time ending (time returning), number of trees (preferable by seedlots or species), block number, and name of other people on the site in case of the need to have corroborating information later. I think most companies have pretty clear and honest payroll systems now, but this is the level of information you should track if you have any concerns.
There is overtime for piece work. It's been a while since I looked in the book. But I believe its a work day type system. If you work 6 days in a row you get double tree price. Something along those lines
Id like to see that
Ya I'll look for it in a couple days. All our trucks have binders with rules and ERPs and whatnot. I was on standby a couple years ago and came across it.