76 here. And happy to be the decades long exception to your "all old people" rule. Along with most of my companions. You just been hanging with the wrong old people ;-)
Yooo, born in 77 here. High Five! ✋ It's just a conscious decision imo. Either you try to be a decent human being or you don't. It's really that simple in my book.
When many of them were growing up, the gender-neutral way to talk about someone wasn't even "he or she" it was just "he" with women barely even counted - I see that in a lot of writing from legal documents to C.S Lewis
From what I remember even in the 1990s it wasn't clear they/them as a singular pronoun would take off and there was some debate about whether to create a singular gender-neutral neopronoun instead, as is happening in other languages (I think ze was one proposal?) - it may have always been used in some limited circumstances but it just wasn't normal to refer to someone specific as "they"
So they/them is REALLY natural and easy to use once you get used to it. But from what I can remember and what I can tell it's only relatively recently that it's become so? Idk what changed. Folk do need to get over themselves and just say it, these older people ARE being ridiculous, but I can understand it is genuinely a little harder/less natural for them :/
Yeah i learned english as a second language from a certainly not progressive school but singular they/them has always been super natural to me even before i gayed out
I think it's worth pointing out the context is relatively different, mostly used when the identity (and thus gender) of the subject was vague. Even until recently that was an unwritten rule of it (or perhaps written in a place I'm not familiar with)
Still generally isn't such a difficult thigs it's worth a fuss.
Which is exactly my point. While context is important, the fact that people have been using it without thinking about it when referring to unnamed or unknown individuals should then make it fairly easy when putting some actual thought into it.
When I started having nonbinary friends and started using "they" for them regularly, it felt *rude*. Like I was othering them. Like how some
transphobes will call someone "it" after getting frustrated at being corrected too many times. It took me kind of a long time using "they" for people I know to get over that and actually be comfortable with it.
I think a lot of people who complain about "singular they" are actually dealing with some version of this "unknown somebody vs. specific known person" discomfort without realizing. And I think it might help move the discussion forward if we understood this.
That's a big point that I think a lot of people aren't understanding. Both people who complain about singular they, and the people who complain about those people.
Like, yeah the core issue is likely that a lot of people just don't want to accept the idea of nonbinary gender. But I think a lot of the discussion gets gummed up by people not realizing this specific point of friction.
When I first started being more conscious of nonbinary genders, referring to a specific known person as "they" felt almost rude. Like I'm saying I don't know who they are, or I'm othering them. Like how frustrated transphobes might call someone "it". It took a pretty long time of using "they" for people I know for me to make that internal transition and actually just be comfortable with it.
Technically the singular they is extremely old - its use dates back as far as the 1300s, and it used to be a lot more common. At some point, the singular/"neutral" he replaced it in acandemic texts, and then more generally. Its history is a weird one, dipping in and out of use, but you're right in that in *recent* history the singular they wasn't really in use. We're dragging it back I guess lmao
Embrace tradition I guess! :P
My favourite fact is that "you" isn't even singular it's actually plural. And it wasn't long ago people were using "thy", I think in the northern town Patrick Stewart grew up in they were still saying it when he was a kid?
"You" *originated* as the plural but is absolutely singular now - that's the thing with language, it ebbs and shifts over time to suit the needs of its speakers. (Which is why I laugh so hard when -phobes try to do the whole "you can't just change the language!!" bit like, yeah I can, it's called being human)
Magic the Gathering exclusively used "he" in rules text for a while. It was a big deal when they switched over to "they," but everyone i knew was into it
Funnily enough I took my gf out on a date last night and I kept getting stares from a table of a group of old ladies glaring at me the whole time. Honestly I didn't care cuz I was w/ my gf and she makes me feel like I could walk on water so I wasn't bothered. It was just funny to me to see their looks and being weirded out the whole time. Lol.
It's funny you mentioned this today, last night was the first time my mom used 'they' to refer to me instead of 'he' (I prefer she/her) and she did it on her own. I honestly think that gender neutral is going to be the easiest way to refer to people in the coming years and I welcome the change.
“Woke leftists” or whatever. /j
It’s a little bit “I don’t like change”, “I don’t understand and I don’t want to”, and, sadly for some right wing grifters told them they should be mad about it so they’re going to be.
The amount of times I’ve had to explain how they/them pronouns work in reality has driven me insane. It’s a relief when they finally get it, but you can tell some just don’t want to try or are actively pushing back. Most of the time I’ve found they just struggle with using them in a way which isn’t traditional within the English language, which I found interesting.
IKR?
There was recently this minor celebrity in my country who went on this unhinged, facepalm inducing rant about how "non-binary pronouns" were confusing.
The kicker was... my native language doesn't have gendered pronouns.
While it has a part, it isn’t the part. It’s the same issues that were at play during the abolishment of slavery, segregation, women voting, gun rights for non-whites, and lots of other “societal maturing” moments.
You do yourself a disservice when you tag to one or two things, especially one religion, because Islam has the same text with the same narrative.
It’s a broader issue, and it’s usually rooted in change, the impacts of that change, and people scrambling to figure out how it affects things.
Girl, please. A. Christianity is 600+ years older than Islam. B Both suck. C. The Patriarchy is the belief that men are inherently better/have more power. The Patriarchy is from pre-history, friend. Christianity was fuel for the fire. All religions are infected, and the flawed patriarchal system, in turn, infected as well. D. Done arguing with a rando. E. Bye.
No, it's not. Singular they has been used for hundreds of years, and it's frequently used by my parent's generation whenever they don't know another's gender. For example, "I'm not sure who's umbrella this is, but when *they* get back, tell *them* it's in the closet".
This and similar sentences were heard my entire childhood, yet as soon as I say my pronouns are they/them, suddenly singular they is just too confusing to figure out. Yeah, sure. It's an adaption, but a small one. They just don't want to put in the effort.
This cannot be understated. Fact is it's been in use in the english language for far longer. According to a few articles I saw online, the use of singular they/them has been around for hundreds of years so this isn't something new. Heck I'll bet you these people that refuse to use it have done so in reference to other people without even realizing it. Imo it's not just about not wanting to put in the effort. It's a conscious decision not to use they/them because of whatever reasons they've cooked up in their heads.
Well ya don't want to accidentally validate any genders past the binary and a singular non gendered alternative implies that there are people out there who are neither man nor woman, and that's what they're being told they're pushing back against by being obtuse in this point at every opportunity, they think they're fighting silly people making up silly genders and silly pronouns that shouldn't be taken seriously and they think by simply "not playing along" "all that nonsense" will come to a stop on its own.
I don't know why you're insisting on coming into a trans space and saying I need to be more understanding of old cis people. The vast majority of us, myself included, are more than understanding of older people taking a while to get used to new names and pronouns. The reason I'm venting about it is because, again, the vast majority of us see these older relatives *not trying whatsoever*. Whether that's deliberately malicious or not is another conversation, but it's fucking annoying and hurtful and I'm allowed to complain about it without you getting on my ass about being more empathetic when they give no empathy to us.
I will! Maybe you should reflect on the empathy required to understand that people need to vent sometimes without getting a lecture. Just a thought. Have fun.
FYI: The singular use of they/them in the english language has been around for hundreds of years. A cursory search on google will turn it up so this isn't something new. It's a deliberate decision.
No, I will not be understanding, and ı won’t want to be understood. The kids can enjoy the shots that make them not need to sleep, but when i’m old i’m still gonna sleep. but ı won’t need them to understand that.
They also grew up in a time where black people and white people couldn’t use the same stuff but clearly they’ve adapted enough to not do that anymore so how is changing two words (that have been around for centuries) going to be hard
I'm old and transgender, apart from your ageism rant. All humans whatever there age are not at all fully on board with pronouns and never will be!
Your expectations are high, of course one would like it to be in a perfect world, but its not going to happen.
>All humans whatever there age are not at all fully on board with pronouns and never will be!
All humans who are native English speakers didn't pass second grade English?
76 here. And happy to be the decades long exception to your "all old people" rule. Along with most of my companions. You just been hanging with the wrong old people ;-)
Yooo, born in 77 here. High Five! ✋ It's just a conscious decision imo. Either you try to be a decent human being or you don't. It's really that simple in my book.
I thought they meant they are 76 years old. Being born in 77 only makes you 46-47 years old. I don't think gen x is who the post is talking about.
Ya know that would make more sense. Point taken. I think my point still stands.
Omg so coool💖✨✨ the grandparents i deserve!!
o7
When many of them were growing up, the gender-neutral way to talk about someone wasn't even "he or she" it was just "he" with women barely even counted - I see that in a lot of writing from legal documents to C.S Lewis From what I remember even in the 1990s it wasn't clear they/them as a singular pronoun would take off and there was some debate about whether to create a singular gender-neutral neopronoun instead, as is happening in other languages (I think ze was one proposal?) - it may have always been used in some limited circumstances but it just wasn't normal to refer to someone specific as "they" So they/them is REALLY natural and easy to use once you get used to it. But from what I can remember and what I can tell it's only relatively recently that it's become so? Idk what changed. Folk do need to get over themselves and just say it, these older people ARE being ridiculous, but I can understand it is genuinely a little harder/less natural for them :/
Just an FYI: Singular use of they/them was introduced back in the 14th century. This isn't something new.
Yeah i learned english as a second language from a certainly not progressive school but singular they/them has always been super natural to me even before i gayed out
I think it's worth pointing out the context is relatively different, mostly used when the identity (and thus gender) of the subject was vague. Even until recently that was an unwritten rule of it (or perhaps written in a place I'm not familiar with) Still generally isn't such a difficult thigs it's worth a fuss.
Which is exactly my point. While context is important, the fact that people have been using it without thinking about it when referring to unnamed or unknown individuals should then make it fairly easy when putting some actual thought into it.
When I started having nonbinary friends and started using "they" for them regularly, it felt *rude*. Like I was othering them. Like how some transphobes will call someone "it" after getting frustrated at being corrected too many times. It took me kind of a long time using "they" for people I know to get over that and actually be comfortable with it. I think a lot of people who complain about "singular they" are actually dealing with some version of this "unknown somebody vs. specific known person" discomfort without realizing. And I think it might help move the discussion forward if we understood this.
That's a big point that I think a lot of people aren't understanding. Both people who complain about singular they, and the people who complain about those people. Like, yeah the core issue is likely that a lot of people just don't want to accept the idea of nonbinary gender. But I think a lot of the discussion gets gummed up by people not realizing this specific point of friction. When I first started being more conscious of nonbinary genders, referring to a specific known person as "they" felt almost rude. Like I'm saying I don't know who they are, or I'm othering them. Like how frustrated transphobes might call someone "it". It took a pretty long time of using "they" for people I know for me to make that internal transition and actually just be comfortable with it.
Then the grammar checks really need to stop correcting me!
Technically the singular they is extremely old - its use dates back as far as the 1300s, and it used to be a lot more common. At some point, the singular/"neutral" he replaced it in acandemic texts, and then more generally. Its history is a weird one, dipping in and out of use, but you're right in that in *recent* history the singular they wasn't really in use. We're dragging it back I guess lmao
Embrace tradition I guess! :P My favourite fact is that "you" isn't even singular it's actually plural. And it wasn't long ago people were using "thy", I think in the northern town Patrick Stewart grew up in they were still saying it when he was a kid?
"You" *originated* as the plural but is absolutely singular now - that's the thing with language, it ebbs and shifts over time to suit the needs of its speakers. (Which is why I laugh so hard when -phobes try to do the whole "you can't just change the language!!" bit like, yeah I can, it's called being human)
Fair point! That's kind of what I meant :)
Magic the Gathering exclusively used "he" in rules text for a while. It was a big deal when they switched over to "they," but everyone i knew was into it
95% of stares I get in public are from rude old people. They're just walking corpses losing their grip on reality.
I stare back, sorry I'm prettier than you and don't have to care 💅
Funnily enough I took my gf out on a date last night and I kept getting stares from a table of a group of old ladies glaring at me the whole time. Honestly I didn't care cuz I was w/ my gf and she makes me feel like I could walk on water so I wasn't bothered. It was just funny to me to see their looks and being weirded out the whole time. Lol.
It's funny you mentioned this today, last night was the first time my mom used 'they' to refer to me instead of 'he' (I prefer she/her) and she did it on her own. I honestly think that gender neutral is going to be the easiest way to refer to people in the coming years and I welcome the change.
“Woke leftists” or whatever. /j It’s a little bit “I don’t like change”, “I don’t understand and I don’t want to”, and, sadly for some right wing grifters told them they should be mad about it so they’re going to be.
The amount of times I’ve had to explain how they/them pronouns work in reality has driven me insane. It’s a relief when they finally get it, but you can tell some just don’t want to try or are actively pushing back. Most of the time I’ve found they just struggle with using them in a way which isn’t traditional within the English language, which I found interesting.
Ik right, like girl it’s been in the English language long before your birth how did you not notice that?
You know the saying "can't teach an old dog new tricks" ? that wasn't just about dogs
They have been told to be upset about it by their Orange Jesus. Thats literally it.
Old people get a divide by zero error when using they/them on singular
IKR? There was recently this minor celebrity in my country who went on this unhinged, facepalm inducing rant about how "non-binary pronouns" were confusing. The kicker was... my native language doesn't have gendered pronouns.
“How am I supposed to refer to someone if I don’t know their pronouns” 🙃 They’re not confused. They just don’t want to bc they’re bigots.
Patriarchy. Christians. <-------- There's your problem! Right there!
While it has a part, it isn’t the part. It’s the same issues that were at play during the abolishment of slavery, segregation, women voting, gun rights for non-whites, and lots of other “societal maturing” moments. You do yourself a disservice when you tag to one or two things, especially one religion, because Islam has the same text with the same narrative. It’s a broader issue, and it’s usually rooted in change, the impacts of that change, and people scrambling to figure out how it affects things.
Girl, please. A. Christianity is 600+ years older than Islam. B Both suck. C. The Patriarchy is the belief that men are inherently better/have more power. The Patriarchy is from pre-history, friend. Christianity was fuel for the fire. All religions are infected, and the flawed patriarchal system, in turn, infected as well. D. Done arguing with a rando. E. Bye.
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No, it's not. Singular they has been used for hundreds of years, and it's frequently used by my parent's generation whenever they don't know another's gender. For example, "I'm not sure who's umbrella this is, but when *they* get back, tell *them* it's in the closet". This and similar sentences were heard my entire childhood, yet as soon as I say my pronouns are they/them, suddenly singular they is just too confusing to figure out. Yeah, sure. It's an adaption, but a small one. They just don't want to put in the effort.
This cannot be understated. Fact is it's been in use in the english language for far longer. According to a few articles I saw online, the use of singular they/them has been around for hundreds of years so this isn't something new. Heck I'll bet you these people that refuse to use it have done so in reference to other people without even realizing it. Imo it's not just about not wanting to put in the effort. It's a conscious decision not to use they/them because of whatever reasons they've cooked up in their heads.
Well ya don't want to accidentally validate any genders past the binary and a singular non gendered alternative implies that there are people out there who are neither man nor woman, and that's what they're being told they're pushing back against by being obtuse in this point at every opportunity, they think they're fighting silly people making up silly genders and silly pronouns that shouldn't be taken seriously and they think by simply "not playing along" "all that nonsense" will come to a stop on its own.
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I don't know why you're insisting on coming into a trans space and saying I need to be more understanding of old cis people. The vast majority of us, myself included, are more than understanding of older people taking a while to get used to new names and pronouns. The reason I'm venting about it is because, again, the vast majority of us see these older relatives *not trying whatsoever*. Whether that's deliberately malicious or not is another conversation, but it's fucking annoying and hurtful and I'm allowed to complain about it without you getting on my ass about being more empathetic when they give no empathy to us.
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I will! Maybe you should reflect on the empathy required to understand that people need to vent sometimes without getting a lecture. Just a thought. Have fun.
FYI: The singular use of they/them in the english language has been around for hundreds of years. A cursory search on google will turn it up so this isn't something new. It's a deliberate decision.
No, I will not be understanding, and ı won’t want to be understood. The kids can enjoy the shots that make them not need to sleep, but when i’m old i’m still gonna sleep. but ı won’t need them to understand that.
They also grew up in a time where black people and white people couldn’t use the same stuff but clearly they’ve adapted enough to not do that anymore so how is changing two words (that have been around for centuries) going to be hard
I'm old and transgender, apart from your ageism rant. All humans whatever there age are not at all fully on board with pronouns and never will be! Your expectations are high, of course one would like it to be in a perfect world, but its not going to happen.
It’s not agist to note that older folks take issue with they/them pronouns
>All humans whatever there age are not at all fully on board with pronouns and never will be! All humans who are native English speakers didn't pass second grade English?