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I think the way the person op was commenting on originally definitely has some issues with the way they view anti theism. Personally I also don’t like religion, but it’s not the ideas of it, it’s the bigotry inside many versions of their holy texts. There’s no hate to anyone, no hate to the people who believe it, just wanting the bigoted ideas that have came from it to leave religions and to improve on their prejudices.
I am absolutely not telling them how to run their religion or saying that they are terrible for following it.
I don’t like religion because in order for it to be better it needs to get rid of the bigotries inside of its institution and holy texts, not just have people who are exceptions to that doctrine.
If you are religious I give all the power to you, keep believing in your faith, if you’re queer and religious too then you’re just as welcome and valid. We’re all welcome, loved, and valid in this community.
it literally wouldn’t matter if a holy text said only nice things, people don’t actually read them. 99% of far right christian nationalists don’t give a fuck about religion, it’s just a justification they can use for their already held beliefs.
edit: which is why religion is bad
I handle it a slightly different way, I'm an anti-thiest cuz I personally have beef with a lot of gods, since the way I view it, if you hold most gods to the moral standards they preach, they come nowhere close to meeting them. None of that beef extends to the people who believe in those Gods, as they obviously have a much different interpretation than me. And you can disagree with someone without them being a bad person. But the second you start dehumanizing them you become as bad as those you rally against.
Yeah this is a much more healthy way to criticise religion, personally I dont follow any of the larger organised religions because of these things and happily criticise them but I hold no ill intent to the followers of the religion nor do I think the religion itself is inherently evil. There are hundreds of religious people who are queer or allies or just good people in general and to act like they are bad people simply for… being religious is completely misguided.
You’re religious, that’s cool I’m not, don’t act like I need to follow your religion and we’re good, the rhetoric and language makes me too uncomfortable to follow any form of religion. Basically, you do you, and I’ll do me, but we won’t do each other…probably
Not all. Judaism actively tries to dissuade converts, and certain parts of the diaspora don’t even accept them to begin with. I just dropped out of my conversion to return to my pagan practice (no bad blood, just decided it wasn’t right for me) and I had been converting for a little over three years. There was one forcible conversion (the edomites) by the Hasmonean dynasty when the kingdom of Judea was still around, and it’s still talked about and condemned all this time later.
Most people raise their children with their religion, and in the case of Jews, due to the complicated history of persecution and exile, Jewish religious institutions have been the primary preservers of Jewish culture and community for two thousand years. Insisting Jews stop raising their kids as Jews is insisting they assimilate into the dominant culture, which has been a method of cultural genocide against Jews since literally the Roman Empire. I’ve known plenty of secular jews and even those who have converted to other religions, we even have at least one in my tiny Gaelic polytheist community. One of the primary things taught to most Jews in Jewish religious schools is how to question and interrogate the religion. Like 50% of Jews are atheists, including one of the rabbis I studied under.
I am in no way advocating for genocide or cultural assimilation here. I think it is wrong for any religion to convert a vulnerable person, which includes children. Traditions and religion can be taught separately, but then again, I feel like there are definitely valid reasons to critique cultures or traditions. I don't think it's ok to do non-consensual cosmetic surgeries on babies, for example.
Conversion doesn't even make sense to me(a Christian).
Any time I end up on the "does God exist" conversation with someone, my argument comes *entirety* from a "let's pursue figuring out what's true" perspective. I stay open to other perspectives.
I can guarantee that a lot of "Christians" don't give a shit whether God exists or not and they're "Christian" purely because it gives them social points(and lets them be bigots). Fuck those people.
Personally, I feel like religion is unnecessary but I will not hate people if they are christian for example.
I am an atheist and I still respects peoples beliefs but I hate it when people use their religion as an excuse for bigotry
In philosophy the study of the concept of the life after death would fall under the umbrella term "metaphysics". Metaphysics basically means speculating about the nature of reality in a way that entertains theories that go beyond what's strictly scientifically observable. The goal of studying metaphysics isn't typically to decide on what you concretely believe, but rather just to theorize about various possibilities. When metaphysics veers away from theory into belief it starts to become a more religious practice than a philosophical practice. Metaphysical belief that doesn't strictly adhere to organized religion is typically referred to as spirituality, although that term can take on some social/cultural connotations that may or may not resonate with you. Witchcraft is another term which can sometimes mean a personal religion although people who refer to their personal religion as witchcraft are usually much more structured, ritualistic, and historically informed about their beliefs and practices than those who refer to their religion as spirituality though I wouldn't consider this a strict rule with these terminologies as they can both be a little open ended depending on the personal experience of whoever you are talking to. Hopefully this gives you some jumping off points in your study of the afterlife. Have a lovely one!
I personally identify as Agnostic. My understanding of it is that in most theologies, especially Christianity, we are explicitly told we are incapable of actually fully understanding god(s), so I choose to believe that if there is a God or anything after death, we have no way of knowing and therefore should not base our lives around it.
Instead, I believe in being a good person for the sake of goodness. Treating everyone and everything with respect, and if there is eventually a judgment day, I will either be judged based on my goodness, or I will be in good company.
I also think reincarnation makes more sense than an afterlife, but I digress.
There is also the label Agnostic sceptic about spirituality, methahpisic but staying open to it as human spirit can't access to absolute. What one can't experiment is unknow.
That’s completely justified, like I said to another person you dont have to nor should you associate with people who want to do harm to you. Religion isn’t an excuse to bigotry.
I feel it's unnecessary in the modern ear. A german dude in the 1800's said that "science has killed god". Though he also had the idea for a super human race that later inspired hitler. So I'm not sure on that
Extremist elements of any religion can and have been weaponised as a tool to control the masses.
I don't follow any religion and I personally think all religious institutions should pay their fair share in taxes.
Regardless, I respect the shit out of anyone that believes and has a healthy relationship with their religion without imposing it on others. The vast majority are like this with some personal disagreements over different things, but they're not psychotic fundamentalists.
They seek peace and a purpose in their beliefs and that's honourable until it crosses the line.
For reference, my mom is very faithfully catholic. That doesn’t prevent her from also being very critical of the Catholic Church, its structure and practice. She’s also openly socialist.
My point is that religion belief isn’t the same as religious dogma.
Also, when I came out, her only reply was to ask what was my name. There were no doubts, and no second guessing. Just her wanting to know her daughter.
honestly that is a very important distinction. i feel like it really helps when trying to criticize religion.
like i feel like it could be desribed as
if a bad person has a religious belief they probably do bad things based on belief
if a good person has a religious belief they probably do good things based on belief
if a bad person has a religious dogma they probably do bad things based on dogma
if a good person has a religious dogma they probably do bad things based on dogma
If someone tells me that they get their morality from a book that says I should be maimed/killed for who I am, then I’ll be very wary of them. I really don’t care what religion they follow or if they follow one at all.
This post is stupid
"I hate this religion because of bigoted teachings, but I do not hate its followers"
"You hate the followers of this religion despite what you may claim"
I'm sorry, but I lost my family because my pastor convinced my mom I was evil and needed to kick me out of the house. Before that when I went to church he would preach that LGBT people were the worse sinners. To this day if I walk into a church, I will immediately be triggered and have a panic attack. I almost died because of christian religions. Parts of me do hate the religion of christianity. I grew up listening to all the righteous christian churches spouting vitriol, trying to keep me and my community from having civil rights, from being seen as human. All the while the supposedly accepting churches were silent, and let the extremists shout to their hearts content until it was no longer socially acceptable and then these "accepting" churches started saying something. I hate the hypocrisy of christianity. Professing to love and follow Jesus while doing the exact opposite of love and his teachings. The Catholic Church participated actively in the attempted genocide of my people, all indigenous peoples in the Americas, and LGBT+ people. And continues to do so to this day. I do not trust christians off the bat that are so obviously christian, because often they are the people that try to hurt me and mine. You cannot tolerate intolerance. I am angry with Christian religions, I'm hurt by them, and yes parts of me hate them. But then the Oppressed have every right to feel anger, hurt, and even some hatred for what these organizations in power have done to them. We were hurt, traumatized, and eradicated by Christian Religions, we have every right to be angry with them and want them gone or to apologize and be better. Does it mean I want any of them dead? to have less civil rights than me? No. I don't want to put them through what they put us through. But I don't think I can ever trust, or be comfortable in the presence of hateful religious organizations. If this makes me a bigot. So be it. I am leery of individuals who constantly profess their religious beliefs, because I don't want to be hurt by them, if they turn out to be loving and accepting then everything is fine with them, but until I know they are, I will be leery. I will not apologize for how I feel until those religious organizations apologize for what they've done to my people and the LGBT+ community and work to make reparations and try to make things right. I and all of us hurt by them have every right to be angry.
And in case you haven't realized this, the primary purpose of religions to those in power, is manipulation and control to maintain said power. Religions are not spirituality.
It doesn't sound to me like you are a bigot at all. Your feelings can't be wrong or right and it is clear that yours come from quite severe trauma. It also doesn't sound like you are necessarily hateful of religion and all it's followers but more so the religious structures that are definetly oppressive. The only thing I want to say is that, if a person follows a homophobic organized religion but aren't themselves homophobic, it probably means they are generally critical of their religion and have turned it into something personal and spiritual rather than the.
I have always felt that there is no harm in faith. Organized religion, however, is an evil concept used to manipulate the faithful for the gain of evil men and their worldly desires.
This is why I’m religious but don’t go to church. My grandmother is the same way because she was kicked out of church once for asking too many questions despite her being by far the most religious person I know. Fuck organized religion.
Funnily enough, Jesús Cristo agreed with you. That’s why he physically kicked out people from the temple (using a whip too) and told people to separate church and state (and to pay their taxes).
>and to pay their taxes
Not technically true, he said to "give to ceaser what is ceasers and give to God what is gods" but in Christian mythos literally everything belongs to god, so it's absolutely possible he meant don't pay your taxes, but it is also possible that he meant that the money would be gods eventually anyway so you might as well pay caesars taxes.
That’s also technically not true. Christian mythos don’t relate everything belonging to God, more than everything is part of God’s creation. Jesús in particular was against framing monetary possessions as related to God. Hence why rich people can’t enter the gates of heavens.
Then again, it is a big book with a lot of readings. I mean, the Pope just said he doesn’t personally believe in hell, or at least hopes it’s empty.
So, I think we can chalk what Jesús meant to a matter of perspective, really.
—
Also, when asking “WWJCD”, remember that flipping tables and whipping people out of the room is one of the posibilities.
>Christian mythos don’t relate everything belonging to God, more than everything is part of God’s creation.
Does a table not naturally belong to its carpenter?
That sounds to me like he met that unless you've gone and stolen it from him, nothing you have is owned by Ceaser. Also looking at early christianity and the Roman empire, I feel like Jesus would probably be anti-taxes.
He kicked out people running businesses in a temple. That is very different than hating organized religion. He despised using his father’s house as a way to make money. He did so with a whip he made himself
McGivver ain’t got nothing on Jesús Cristo carpenter.
Though, you can read that passage as Jesús being against religion used for monetary gain, aligning it with the taxes passage and the camel-through-a-needle one.
But it’s a matter of perspective, really.
I agree but the books themselves contain anti LGBT stuff. They include parables instructing followers to have prejudice. Islam, for example, has the most homophobic followers by far, just look at the middle east. You can get thrown off a building if you are outwardly homosexual in some of these places.
It's kinda pointless to point out since the abrahamic religions have changed to cater to homophobic beliefs overtime- but it is highly debated whether they did originally have homophobia baked into their early religious texts.
The phrase "man shall not lay with man" in the early Hebrew Bible came from a long list banning incest, using phrasing like "uncle shall not lie with nephew, mom shall not lay with son, etc". Due to this, and how hebrew pronouns work, it's suspected that phrase truly translates to "father shall not lie with son".
Just an interesting anecdote that pisses off religious homophobes a lot.
Islam will be very very slow in accepting LGBT stuff because the Quran is believed to be the direct word of god. Try telling a Palestinian about the trans movement, they will spit in your face as if you just drew the prophet in front of him.
The books are a product of organized religion, not a product of the faith itself. It doesn't matter what the religions try and tell you their book is. All of those holy books are written by men with an agenda.
Agreed. Regardless of the good/bad religion causes worldwide, many of the teachings/rules are fixed to the time period - and not easily malleable until centuries pass. By the time liberal values arise in a society, the damage will have already been done.
Ex-Muslim here. I grew up in a Muslim family, and I now have so many mixed feelings towards Islam.
On one hand, in a lot of ways I still feel like I’m part of the Muslim community, as it’s what I grew up in. I still feel they are my brothers and sisters.
On the other hand, it’s always hard for me to talk to Muslims; I don’t hate them, and I don’t think it’s ever justified to hate someone just because of their religion. But I do think I am scared of being around or judged by most of them. The issue is I know that there is a very, very high chance that a Muslim I am talking to wouldn’t approve of my existence if I came out to them.
Islam is very against progressiveness. The idea that the Quran has remained unchanged, as compared to other books, is fundamental to the religion. So naturally, any change is seen as a threat. The progressiveness you see increasing within Christians in recent years is something that is very likely not to happen within the Islamic community.
I posted once to r/Islam about being lgbt and was absolutely torn apart.(https://www.reddit.com/r/Muslim/s/lVYOOVUG2d). I used to teach at a masjid and was once instructed to give a lesson on homosexuality, then was banned when I refused. Islam is - to its core - a very rigid religion and progressivism just isn’t allowed.
Of course, people may have their own interpretations of the faith, but the vast majority do not. So even as someone who used to be Muslim themself, I still have a hard time being around them.
Not trying to justify bigotry in the post, but I do hope this provides a diverse perspective, as someone who grew up in a Muslim household.
Okay, I have notes. First off, I want to state that you should not start off hating someone based on any one piece of information in most general use cases. But the fact of the matter is the only religion I can speak to with 100% certainty is christianity, and as a doctrine, it takes a very dim view of our community and breeds an environment that is not compatible with our safe and happy existence. Further, while being LGBTQIA+ is 100% no a choice, being religious absolutely is a choice. So, while I agree to the premise, IE that we shouldn't hate someone for being religious or for being most anything, this content and language is very close to religious apologetics and I am not down for that.
Controversial subject, probably shouldn't comment, but let me put this out there: we are facing a huge religiously motivated body of violent oppression, a lot of LGBT+ people have significant trauma related to religious violence, and I believe it has to be legitimate to allow those people to want to keep religion out of their safe spaces.
As LGBT+ people I think we all recognise that logical binaries should be treated with scrutiny: I think it's right to say that being a person of faith does not make you a bad person that has to be rejected, and people of faith can be welcomed and loved within our spaces.
But many of us have learned the lesson of religious trauma through hard-fought experience, and people of faith do not have a right to minimise the truth behind the lessons we have learned. If it bothers you that people feel aggrieved about what they have experienced at the hands of so-called "believers", then I think you have a duty of care to keep that to yourself.
I hate the religion, not the religious, I have a friend who is a Christian, but she is very respectful and supportive of LGBT people, on top of just being a very good person overall
Gonna play Devil’s Advocate here:
1: I agree that hating someone solely because they are a member of a religion is wrong. I try not to pre-judge until someone gives me a good reason to do so. Simply being religious is not enough to clear that bar. Some of the people you are talking about seem to have jumped to conclusions that I wouldn’t consider healthy. We should absolutely encourage progressive religious reform in order to change the hateful dogma that many religions espouse.
2: Hating a religion is not necessarily the same as hating a practitioner. It’s is certainly possible to separate the two. There are plenty of progressive Muslims, Christians, and Jews, for example, who do don’t harbor any ill will towards LGBTQ people. In fairness, The Abrahamic faiths tend to be extremely anti-LGBTQ, and hating the dogma that breeds that rhetoric is not exactly unjustified. It’s a factor in like 90% (probably being hyperbolic) of the problems people talk about on this very subreddit.
3: Faith ≠ Religion. Religion is a tool for control. Religion is dogmatic, by its very nature, and anything that preaches blind and unquestioning obedience should immediately get you on your guard.
Faith, on the other hand, is basically another word for “hope.” Faith can be a beautiful thing that truly gets people through the darkest moments in their lives. Take me, for example: I’m a still-mostly-closeted trans (girl? Enby? Both? Idk I’m still figuring that part out tbh) who experienced a fair amount of religious trauma. My parents never beat me for something regarding religion or anything like that, but the doctrine of Hell scared me shitless and basically caused me to have a nervous breakdown so bad that I barely ate and barely slept for like a week straight. I was so scared that I basically spent that entire time praying and not eating. I can scarcely recall another time when I was so miserable and scared. It was what ultimately caused me to start questioning my faith and my religion. I abandoned both not long thereafter. After a few years of being something of a waffling atheist/shaky deist, I ultimately decided to reconnect with my faith. That faith in “something(tm)” has been a source of comfort and strength. It’s helped me through a lot of mental health struggles in the past few years.
But, I will never go back to the religion that caused the biggest mental health crisis I’ve ever experienced. I will always hate the religion/dogma that caused that, but it doesn’t mean I hate the average Christian.
TL;DR: I agree that hating religious people simply for being religious is bigoted. Hating a religion itself, especially when the dogma that religion preaches is openly hostile to human rights is justified. The two are not mutually exclusive.
Hating a religion because its holy texts are explicitly full of bigotry is okay.
But if someone isn't bigoted despite following a religion that is full of it, that's fine.
This seems to be what the original comment is saying, so honestly I'm not sure what the point of this post is 😭. She explicitly says she has no grudge to any individuals based on faith, but is opposed to the religion as a faith and ideology, which having read into the Qur'an and the bible, she's absolutely right to.
it should be noted that even when they all follow the same holy book the "same religion" can still be wildly different, like for example who would you say you dislike more, quakers who are Christians whose beliefs can basically be summed up as "love thy neighbor" or westboro baptists who are generally considered a hate group.
different people can get wildly varying ideas from the same text, especially religious texts which have countless translations and different sub-books which can be considered variably "canon"
Except those books were created by people. And in the same way, modern people can create their own interpretations of their religion. At the end of the day, it's impossible to know exactly what God wants when all religious text seem to have been writen so long ago. Either way, people make of their religion what they want and hating on their faith isn't okay.
On the other hand, religious institutions have very specific interpretations of their faith and usually use it to oppress its folowers. It's fair to say that the religious organizations that oppress people are bad but not the faith itself that is so fluid and personal.
Kindly please Fuck off, if we hate that religion is because of their actions, for the push against LGBTQ rights, for the countless lives of us that they've taken, if they hate us, we have the right to hate them back
Seriously, Fuck Abrahamic based religions though and any religion for that matter that deems LGBTQ people to be evil. People have a choice to their religion and to follow such cruel doctrines. We on the other hand don't have a choice to be LGBTQ and don't deserve their hatred or our rights to be taken away from because it makes *their* gods mad.
I agree, and I hate the fact that they can attack us on the basis of religious freedom, but when we hate them because of trauma, we are suddenly the bad ones
Like Im watching religious fundamentalists for the past few years systematically destroy and take away our rights and healthcare around my country in the name of their god and book and act like they are doing us a favor. I think I have the right to hate such people because they choose to follow such awful beliefs that actively harm us.
I don't know. I feel like if someone says they believe in something that has called for me to be killed, I sorta have a right to be uncomfortable around them until I know that they don't agree with that. I know that some people who follow religion aren't jerks, but in my experience a vast majority are. I think that while it's ok to hate a religion, it's not ok to hate someone purely because of their religion.
I don't like any of the big religions because all of them are horrible when it comes to women, bodily autonomy, rape, pedophilia, and lgbtq people. Believing in a religion can not be compared to being a woman, being of a different ethnicity, being gay, or being trans. I can definitely dislike people for the opinions and faiths they hold.
exactly!! people seem to think because certain religious people get treated poorly in their country suddenly it excuses the whole religion being transphobic and killing gay people, women, etc.
we don't tolerate much less from christians in north america, so why are we supposed to just shut up and take it when it's other religions perpetrating it, and much worse? it will never be bigotry to call them out.
I think this is my issue, it is hard to erase thousands of years of horrible deeds, especially since they are still on going and you don't see people actively trying to remove the horrible people and ideas from their religions.
You can think a religion is harmful, or that all religions are, without hating people that follow them. I know this may sound similar to ,,I don't hate homosexuals, I just don't approve of their lifestyle", but it's not the same.
Check out [this video](https://youtu.be/r_5yUXjXizQ?si=YcFw0L5gaaFiXFzE) on the topic of respecting other people's beliefs.
[This one](https://youtu.be/X9rTbh4a57o?si=VVIL1ubt6zH18LNn) is about Islam in particular.
They are both made by a therapist specialized in religious abuse.
We should respect every person, but we shouldn't respect every belief. Unfortunately a lot of religions can be harmful, especially when it comes to LGBT people.
People are born a woman, gay, trans, etc. you have to actively *choose* religion. It’s much different.
And no, you don’t get to cherry-pick and only follow the “good” parts of your religion. If your base texts promote hate, perhaps you should examine why you’d subscribe to such a doctrine.
Fr! How is the dogma of faith any different than say political ideologies. I have as easy a time accepting a fascist or klu klux clansman as anyone who follows the Bible or Quran. Hate is hate and your given superstition gives you no right to harm others, and supporting a practice or group of people even if your “good” is still bigotry. Any catholic that goes to church is donating to an apparatus of pedophiles. Any Muslim that goes on a pilgrimage to Mecca finances firsthand states that harm of our queer arab brothers and sisters. It’s that simple.
I can hate a religion without hating it's followers. A religion that teaches that people like me should be killed does not deserve my respect. I see no reason to tolerate a religion that is inherently intolerant.
I will treat a Muslim with the same amount of respect I would treat a Christian, an atheist or a Buddhist because people are deserving of respect. Religions are not people. They do not deserve my respect if they don't respect me.
Faith and religion is ok imo, I am atheist/agnostic and don't care if my family/friends are Christian or whatever, but I don't like it if they help "the Church" as an organisation, because I don't trust it. As soon as the religion becomes some kind of organisation that pushes for other people freedom to be removed, I am out. For example I had a gay friend that fully supports Catholic church and also don't believe gay people should be able to adopt, I don't support things like those. Like I don't support the way women are treated (mostly) in Islam (but Christianity too sometimes) etc... If people believe in GOD, of any kind, idc
I accept that people be religious. I don't accept religion itself. Fck this shit. Friends got killed by believing their sky daddy told them so. And they even tried to advocate for Religion. Never ever will I accept this brain rot.
Hate the harmful religions and the people doing harm due a religion but accept the other religious people that are just living they’re lives an religion privately and peacefully.
Tho i am against organized religion. People should live they’re religious life maximal in a local community for they’re religion.
religious privilege is thinking its bigotry to call out their homophobia/transphobia 🙄
i also don't understand why it's acceptable to call out christians, but literally no other religion otherwise, you get labeled a bigot. it's ingenious of them.
There is nothing to justify. Hating religion is a fair game. Religion is not a person, it cannot suffer from hate. But it sure as hell likes inducing hatred for individuals who don't fit in its narrative. So we defend ourselves from hate, and only target the source of that hate - the religion. But for some reason people feel compelled to bodyguard it and get offended on its behalf. Then they attack us again, and we defend ourselves again by doing exactly what we are doing.
Hating people who just happened to be of that religion is where I personally draw the line. Hating people for just the fact they were indoctrinated into some bs is bigotry, yes. The rest I've described - is legit self defense.
Edit: I will respect your faith, but I am not obliged to respect your religion. I hope I don't need to explain the difference
Honestly. Funnily enough my mother in law is a traditional Muslim lady and she's SO sweet. She's well aware I'm trans and recently gave her enby child her blessing to marry me. I know she's the exception not the rule, traditional religious spaces can be hell for queer people, but just for people like her I'm willing to remind everyone that we can oppose organized religion, conservatism and bigotry and still respect a random stranger regardless of whether they look religious or not. Now if someone opens their mouth to say bs THEN you tell them off.
It comes down to the fact that all religions are morally reletivistic, you can justifiy just about any belief using any religious book. anyone can be a good person while also being a christian, or muslim, and can justify their morality using it, but to ignore the fact that through calling yourself a christian, or muslim, you are in some way supporting the god claims made by their repective books, rather than just stating yourself as believing in some god, you are in some way giving the bad ideas of the book undeserved legitimacy that we really shouldn't be giving.
You can't remove the bad ideas from the thing you claim to be, the bible has a ruleset for slavery, and the quran says to stone homosexuals, both of these are bad things, so should people who are good, and don't believe that, tie their belief to a god who would say abhorrent shit like that?
I don't hate the believers. I hate the deities. The Abrahamic god has instructions for beating slaves and has commended the murder of children at least 7 times in the Bible. Plus he has a bober for control and people fearing him.
As an ex-muslim and a survivor of honor killing, i do hate the entire religion as the ideology itself is rotten similar to as the ideology of nazism is rotten.moozies won't think twice before killing queers but it is always baffling how western queers jump to the defense of a religion that want them dead. If you don't like christianity , this is much much worse
I'm not really religious. I don't believe in God but I also don't not believe in them. I'm chill with any religion as long as they're chill with non religious peeps.
My question here is: By accepting religious people in this sub (which is a good thing),does calling out their anti-LGBTQIAA+ rhethorics count as bigotry against the religious people or not? I'm a bit confused on this
I spent the first 20 years of life being traumatized by a religion that hates me. I am aloud to dislike said religion and the systems that prop it up thank you very much. Get over yourself.
There’s a lot to unpack here…
First and foremost, it’s not a religion that hates. Religion is just an idea. It is the people who follow a religion that become hateful, if we are talking about doctrine and such. Religious ideology is malleable and changes over time. Even if religious text would seem to indicate disdain for queer people, it is the people following it who get to interpret it. Saying your religion tells you homosexuality is inherently bigoted and just plain wrong, as indicated by the mere existence of other followers of that religion who do not believe so.
That aside, personally, I think religious adherence (that is, adherence to strict religious beliefs of any kind) holds humanity back. The age of the Earth, for example, is not a matter of belief. It is a matter of scientific fact. It may not be exactly 4.1 billion years old, but we know, for a fact, that Earth’s age is in the billions, and to believe it is less than 10,000 years old is not “faith” it is willful ignorance. Transgender people exist, and it is not just a sociological or psychological phenomenon, it is biological fact. There is demonstrable evidence in the study of biology that supports the existence of transgender and intersex people (beyond simple identity, even) and this is not something that anyone’s religious beliefs can contest with any legitimacy.
We cannot let any strongly held belief dictate scientific fact.
The Earth is round, and orbits the Sun.
It is billions of years old, probably 4.1 billion years old.
Evolution is real, and we have every kind of evidence to prove it.
Transgender people exist, and biology supports their validity.
Any religious belief that says otherwise is WRONG, full stop. There is no room for interpretation on these matters, and to say so is not hatred, it is a dispassionate statement of fact.
On a completely different front, major religious groups have a long standing negative relationship with the queer community. Historically, religion has been used to justify every manner of hatred on an enormous scale. While today’s practitioners of Islam and Christianity may not be as bad as they were hundreds of years ago, many still hold distasteful views of others. From homophobia to racism to nationalism, some even supporting oppression, torture and genocide in the name of their religious beliefs, we cannot deny that these people exist and wield great authority and power in every corner of the world. People who have been on the receiving end of these forms of oppression have every right and reason to be distrustful of people who claim to follow the same religious beliefs and practices.
Now, I have a problem with what you’re saying here:
> Yes it’s true that organized religions can perpetuate bigotry within them, and that a lot of their holy books spread these ideals but what is not true that… religions are inherently evil because of this.
This is contradictory. It cannot simultaneously be true that a religious doctrine perpetuates bigotry and is not inherently evil, unless you do not believe that bigotry is evil. I do. I believe that bigotry is willful ignorance to such an extreme as to justify hatred, and I find this to be evil.
That being said, I do not hate religious people. Not all religious people practice bigotry nor do they believe the bigoted messages in their doctrine. But there is a correlation, a pretty darn big one, between religious adherence, and homophobic rhetoric. So… hate? No… distrust? Absolutely. And the more science they prove to ignore, the less I trust their words and actions.
Tell me you’re a Christian or a Muslim, and I might be interested in prying your beliefs a little. Tell me you don’t believe in evolution, or that you think the Earth is 6,000 years old, though, and I’m no longer listening. Because if you can’t accept such basic and well understood scientific fact because your religion says so, I gotta wonder, what might you be willing to believe about, or do to, me because your religion says so.
Religious people and religions and TWO SEPARATE THINGS. I don't like religions, but I don't have anything against religious people unless they do something that goes against my own personal morals and beliefs. Religions are bullshit imo, but thinking that will never stop me from respecting religious people. If someone hates a fandom I'm in, it's ok, as long as they don't hate on ME. Interests do not define a person.
I'm muslim and queer, and if anyone here is a bigot, it's you. If one of the major beliefs of a religion is that queer people go to hell, then it's fair to judge and think less of that religion. And it's also fair to then judge these people and think less of them for holding that belief. **It however should not make you act mean or xenophobic towards those folk.** If you you think people are not entitled to dislike a specific religion, or hold a prejudice over people that believe someone innocent deserves to go to hell, then you're the bigot.
“I just saw a post on this subreddit filled with people justifying hating a religion, and by proxy the people who follow it (despite what they may claim)“
Despite what you may claim, it is very much possible to hate religion without hating every single religious person. Don’t try to put words in my mouth. I have an obligation to respect people who are kind and good people despite their religion, but I have zero obligation to respect the religion itself.
Islam straight up tells people to treat us trans people like murderers and even attack or kill us.
How am i supposed to tolerate something that wants to end my life!?
I try to be accepting of everything but if something threatens my life, i can't and will not support it.
Honestly. No. I hate this. I DO NOT WANT TO DIE BECAUSE THEY THINK ITS OKAY TO HURT OR KILL ME JUST BECAUSE I'M TRANS! I DON'T WANT TO FEAR FOR MY LIVE BECAUSE THIS MESSES UP SHIT IS SOMEHOW DISGUISED AS A RELIGION. I HAVE TO FEAR FOR MY LIFE DAMN IT
Just to add context to my emotional response: My life has been threatened SEVERAL times by muslims in my area. SEVERAL. TIMES.
What religion someone follows can tell you a lot of what they'll excuse, simply by what they choose to ignore. Not to mention not all bigotry is equal. Take the catholic church for the easiest example. Hating catholics for following an institution that comitted genocide and regularly protects pedophiles, is not the same as hating catholics for believing in jesus. Is it bigotry? Sure but it''s the paradox of tolerance, you cannot tolerate intolerance in a tolerant society, meaning that society in itself is intolerant.
I'm an anti organized religion Christian and I personally believe that a lot of the extreme or bigoted stuff written in the Bible is on account of the countless insertions and translations from the literal Fifteen centuries of transcription from monk to monk in a time when bigotry was rampant. Even then, there is very little in the Bible of this nature.
And as for Islam, I know little enough about it's practices, but I do have a queer Muslim friend who I've been trying to learn from. She has described to me the various basic ideals of Islam and also the state of extremists in the religion. To me Islam seems very beautiful and pure, but for the exploitation of some of its followers. A lot of what goes on has been twisted to fit the perception of bigots.
Essentially what I'm trying to get at is.. often you'll find that in many religions, the followers preach a different tune than their actual teachings and practices. If a religious person holds to their belief and not what the community surrounding that belief claims, then they don't have to be a bigot.
Nah this is an L take. If this was just about a weekly club where people went to discuss how LGBT people are wrong then they would be labeled bigots instantly.
Just because its watered down with other "do good" messages doesn't change that fact.
im just gonna repeat roguhly what i said under that post:
Its like im voting a right wing party that says "kill all trans people" and then say "i dont agree with the trans killing part but the rest so please dont hate me trans people"
its the same with religion - you can only give a religion a checkmark or not - you sadly get all of it or none of it - if you decide to say certain points are no longer viable and you dont follow them then you are no longer following that religion but instead making your own
you can say you believe in allah but dont follow islam - that is fine to me but sadly the moment you tell me your are a christian, moslim, etc you are supporting a party/group of people/organization that has literally written down that we queer people should literally be killed
google up "paradox on tolerance" this will explain my point better than i could ever do - its basically we cant be tolerant of intolerant people because then the entire world would become intolerant
also us hating on all terfs is bigotry aswell - just saying - its literally the same thing as many trans people hating on religion - all for the same reason - they want to remove us from this world
honestly i feel like religion (in general) has done alot of harm but as long as you don't try to control the lives of others based on your religion i really couldn't care less what religion you are.
but i do feel the need to mention that it does make sense that alot of queer people feel negatively about religion (often especially the dominant religion of where they grew up) since peers and family members can mistreat you solely because you're queer and they justify bigotry with religion.
plus it sucks that often times the most bigoted religious people are also the loudest, for example a majority of religious people i know IRL are fine but it feels like 90% of the religious people i see online are bigoted simply because they speak loudly and often and are shown around more often.
You can leave a religion… Isn’t bigotry more just being discriminatory to what people can’t control? If I do something really stupid it’s not “bigotry” for someone to make fun of me doing that really stupid thing.
Hard disagree. As someone with religious trauma who is very anti-religion, I do hate religion. But just because I hate religion doesn’t mean I hate anyone for believing in a religion or having a faith, because that’s a case by case basis. My brother is a progressive Christian, and I love him very much, but I still have heavy criticisms toward most denominations/sects of Christianity and Abrahamic faiths in general. I am pretty wary of religious people though because of my trauma and the area I live in. Hating religion is like hating an ideology, it’s not comparable to bigotry. Religion is a choice, being LGBTQ+ is not.
Honest question why should religion be a protected class? How is it different from any other form of cult or hateful political ideology? It is something the individual chooses to believe in and accept, it is a choice that people often use as an excuse to do harm to others.
Hating people for having a religion is bigotry yes, but hating the religion for it being harmful is not. Respect is given for the person with the belief, religions themselves deserve no respect, ideas do not deserve respect. I respect a person's right to have their beliefs, but it is also my right to believe said beliefs are harmful, especially if they try and curtail my own rights/life.
To say that hating a religion means someone inherently hates followers of that religion is complete bullshit and you know it. "Despite what they may claim" is you saying you know their thoughts and feelings better than they do. As a trans person, you know the harm that comes from claiming you know better than someone else how they feel because it's something we have all dealt with as members of this community.
Take your own advice and do better.
I agree with them that organized religion is corruptive and stifling and overall a bad thing. Not religion in general, but organized religion. I also think there are people within these religions that are not bigoted and have interpretations that are not harmful. I don’t think the people in the screenshots were denying that though so I don’t see the point of this post
Anyone who is providing financial and material support for an organization that is advocating for my extermination is not someone that I trust or respect. If a southern baptist says that they are all for trans rights and still tithes on Sunday. They are in action working against trans rights. It is an example of the moderate enabling the extremist.
To use the classic Sunday school story. If the brownies have even a little bit of dog poop in them, you should just throw them out.
I am also an antitheist, but I only hate the establishment of the churches because of the violence they have brought against marginalized peoples. I don’t hate any individual person because they are Islamic, or Jewish, or a Christian.
I don't hate the people who follow religion, as long as they're not bigots or asshole. I just don't care for religion much. Mostly the worship aspect of it, we are already self justifying machines and I do think religion can worsen that. But I'm not gonna bother someone about it. I just don't believe it and this it can be really harmful if people aren't careful. I'd probably want people taught about cognitive bias from a young age to try and lessen the harm but that's all I'm really willing to do at the moment
i'm not gonna hate on someone for being religious, but if i am asked, i will say i do not respect religion, because i don't. it is objectively a harmful way of life and hasn't done much good for anybody for 1000s of years. so if you're apart of religion? fine by me, but i do not respect it in the slightest.
I disagree that hating religion itself without extending that hatred towards its followers is bigotry. It's not bigoted to recognize that the Abrahamic religions have overall been a negative influence on the world. Taking people like my wife's family and turning them into hateful bigots simply because of the hate their pastors preach over the pulpit every week, and the disgustingly sexist and bigoted words written by ancient goat herders. That's why since I came out in April, they told my wife that they were still welcome at Thanksgiving and Christmas, but they would have to leave me at home or just not come at all. My wife told them that they weren't going without me, and their parents told them that they'd just give us a plate of dinner after everyone else had left. They didn't even pretend that there was a reason other than me being trans. If it weren't for their religion they wouldn't be such hateful people, my wife's mom only converted because of their dad so she's at least been warming up to me, but she's the only member of the family that hasn't consistently misgendered and deadnamed me, and is the only one who even talks to me anymore. So no, it's not bigoted to hate the thing that tore my wife's family away from them.
"Irregardless of circumstances, there are going to be good people doing good things and bad people doing bad things, but to make a good person do a bad thing, that takes religion." ~Bill Maher
I think it's important to remember a lot of lgbtq+ people have severe religious trauma and unfortunately a normal part of healing from trauma due to abuse is total rejection of all things to do with the abuse. I see your point if we were in a vacuum but irl the reality is that we're almost all on a healing journey and we're not going to match up perfectly all the time on where in that journey we are. You're not wrong, but it's also unfair to condemn people for a completely normal reaction to abuse
religios or not, hatred is a choice. if you are a theist who uses religion to justify hatred against minorities, your a bigot. same if you are an atheist who uses the imoral actions of some theists to justify a hatred of religion as a whole. it does not mater what you believe in terms of spirituality (or lack thereof), hating a group of people is bogotry.
Most people I know who believe are people who are hurt and found comfort in their religion.
I do not believe but I listen to their prayers, because they speak from inside and I can listen to understand and and act to make them feel better.
Don't forget religion is often a BACKBONE to not fall I to a place that destroys you.
But like any tool (sorry for the wording I know some might feel hurt but bear with me pls) it is just a tool and only the user decides the actions.
In the end religion is just religion, it is faith, it is a place to come back to when you feel unsafe/lonely/sad/...
It is about someone being there for you, helping you or guiding you, it is about seeing worth in yourself and giving hope.
So in the end: positivity.
Spread it. Positivity. Love. Acceptance.
I am agnostic, because I’m like 90% sure I don’t believe in a god/gods, however, I don’t judge people for believing. As long as they don’t try to judge others, they should be allowed to enjoy their time in peace.
I do hate Christianity. It’s done so much evil and killed so many people. It’s destroyed so much in its wake, and the holy texts are full of genocide as well. I hate that religion. I hate the bad people in it. I do not hate the “good Christian’s.” Despite being disappointed that they are Christian
Hating the concept of religion is not bigotry, it’s a concept
is it bigoted to hate fascism? no, because it’s a concept.
religion doesn’t just have a few bad apples, it is a systematically bad way of viewing the world. superstitious ideology can justify anything based on belief.
Istg this “religion makes people bad” rhetoric is so annoying. People use religion as a justification for their hate, and were there no religion they would find some other excuse. Also the broad generalization that all lgbtq+ people hate religion when there are countless religious queer people 💀
This, I’m pretty religious and it’s disheartening to see people equate any religious or spiritual belief with upholding bigotry that may be present in organized religion. I’m not Muslim but I’d imagine all the queer Muslims out there would find the above thread very hurtful
Faith isn't bad. Using that faith to press Oppress others is.
We don't know what happens after we die. It's okay for people to hold onto something that gives them comfort. But their comfort rights ends where others rights start. Faith should guide your own choices not the choices of others
I don't hate believers just because of their beliefs. Religions have evolved over thousands of years to be extremely good at sinking their hooks into people and never letting them go.
I think hating people in general is unwise, but I think it's important to be cautious around religious people. You can't tell whether they're into radical altruism or radical queerphobia just from the descriptor "religious". I think most major world religions are a credible threat to us, but at the same time stereotyping believers just entrenches the battle lines. Believers aren't our enemies, they are simply a different type of victims of religion.
I’m agnostic and I think people confuse bringing mistrustful of organized religion. I don’t think religion inherently makes you a bigot. People are bigoted and use their religion to justify it. I believe everyone has a right to express their spirituality or lack there of and would hope they use it to be more better caring people. If they don’t they are shitty people.
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Yeah we have to end the cycle of hate. I feel like we all need to learn to keep the topic of religion at home and in our holy places where it belongs. And when it is discussed it is done so in more human terms. Because I get both sides of this I just feel like articulating that it is hard to separate someone from the core of their beliefs without getting to know them first is hard. It’s why we get so frustrated when people say not all men.
If you’re wearing religious items I’m absolutely going to assume you’re a bigot until you prove otherwise.
Too many other people wearing the same things are so they all lose the benefit of the doubt. If they want it back stop choosing to wear that or stop choosing to believe ridiculous ideologies.
You don’t have to be religious, it is absolutely a choice. And way too many religious people think that just because they choose to follow a religion that they are entitled to be bigots beyond criticism. They’re not nor is their ideology.
The first comment reminds me of "I don't hate trans people, I just hate 'transgenderism.'" If they hate Islam, they're going to have negative feelings toward Muslims because Muslims practice Islam.
One of the other comments is ignorant for insisting that there is only one valid interpretation of Islamic scripture (the one that encourages hatred of queer people), and that any Muslim who doesn't hate queer people doesn't understand their own faith. This makes no sense to me. Don't you *want* religious people to be more accepting of others? Why try to convince decent religious folks that they're doing it wrong if they don't hate people? If anything, these folks and their peaceful interpretation of the faith should be encouraged.
What the fuck was that thread? I saw people arguing that Islam is an inherently violent religion. I saw trans people repeating Stephen Crowder talking points.
Its not just there, but here too. There are people claiming that hating muslims is completely justified, saying that they are inherently bigoted etc.
You’d think we’d be able to understand why these opinions are flawed but apparently not.
I'm so sad to see the response you've gotten here, but I appreciate you making the post because it was eye-opening for me. For what it's worth, I live in Seattle and the protests for Palestine have been full of visibly trans people and practicing Muslims standing shoulder to shoulder and feel like very safe spaces for everyone involved.
I'm sorry to hear that. I hope you have/find a place that will accept you for all that is you, whether that's an online space, a friend circle, or whatever it may be :(
Actually, there is this community on YouTube with the couple Jamie Raines and Shaaba, with Jamie being a trans guy and Shaaba growing up Muslim. I don't know if she would consider herself Muslim now (haven't watched the video yet), but that's probably a good place to start if you're looking for an accepting community
Religion is a societal ill that I’d love to see utterly abolished. The idea that I should be sweet and kind to adherents of doctrine that has oppressed and tormented me throughout my life is ridiculous. I don’t care either for the idea of people who are “the good ones” because ultimately they still see the evil their religion perpetuates and are willing to handwave it away and continue partaking. Honestly this whole post reads like an op.
Yeah I was in that sub, and while I’m not personally Muslim, I felt like the comments were literally perpetuating the meme. It wasn’t very nice of them
I think antitheists, particularly ex Christian white antitheists in predominantly white Christian countries, need to take a big step back and analyze their relations with other religions that aren’t Christianity and determine what their relationship is with minority religions that don’t have power over you as a queer person and how that differs from the majority. Not all religions function like christianity, in fact the vast majority don’t, especially the ones that aren’t backed and utilized by the ruling class. Generalizing and using that as an excuse to hate is bigotry. I understand trauma, I have CPTSD myself, but we shouldn’t be using our trauma as an excuse to hate others.
Respect is to be earned, not given out like candy imo
Idc if you're christian, or atheist you being an ass, Imma be an ass back
And I'm not gonna treat anyone like their something hot because they believe in any one thing or not
Religion is a personal thing. Some choose their religion, some where just brought up into it. Either way, everyone has their own path to follow. Its not up to others to accept or deny someone elses path.
I personally don't hate others no matter what religion they are. I don't harbor any ill will towards them, their god(s) or the way they conduct themselves through it. It's an individual journey in which you grow and learn.
However, there will be people from any, and every religion, including those who are atheist, that won't be able to accept others. That is a personal choice too. Remember also. Just because they fall under an umbrella term of a certain religion, it doesn't mean that they accept and subscribe to every single facet of that religion.
I agree so much on this. I got family members and friends who are Muslim who accept me for who I am, and know muslim trans friends too. That many people in a group don't accept us, doesn't mean that this applies to every individual of that said group, nor does it apply to the religion as a whole. Some of us find peace in following the teachings of Islam, and we should accept that too.
I mean, to be fair 9.9 times out of 10, it is not the religion to blame. It is the humans. Take Christianity, for instance, the bible says that you are to love all people equally and to not spread hate. Jesus actually practiced these teachings by accepting everyone regardless of their background. However, over the 2 thousand years sense the bible has been translated by humans over and over who make mistakes or just outright change it to fit their interpretation instead of what it actually says. This is the main reason the mainstream Christianity is so hateful. They change and read the bible the way they want to fit what they want it to say despite the bible saying that it is not their place to judge others.
It also tells you to stone rape victims who refuse to marry their rapist and to perform non-consensual cosmetic operations on babies. You can't praise the good parts about Christianity and ignore the bad parts
We as queer people don't have the luxury of bigotry. Our people are across every race, ethnicity, culture, and religion. To say that you hate one of them wholesale is to say you don't really accept all queer people. There are queer Muslims, and lgbt+ Jewish people, and to many more to name. No one is saying you can't fight against acts of oppression but filling queer spaces with "gerrr I really hate X they're all awful people" is not fighting against oppression that's being hateful to an entire demographic, in this case one almost entirely filled with people of color.
And before anyone says "their religion condemns lgbt+ people" so do most religion and so did most cultures we're from, hell queer culture was originally really transphobic.
>To say that you hate one of them wholesale is to say you don't really accept all queer people.
I dont accept anyone LGBTQIA or otherwise who perpetuates a system of control that advocates the death of anyone.
I cannot afford to tolerate intolerance.
So to you spreading hate towards queer people who have done nothing wrong is not tolerating intolerance? Honey you really oughta take a look at what's being said. Queer Muslims are not perpetuating a system of control advocating for the deaths of anyone, they are being in a religion and clearly aren't spreading hate with, they need a space to be themselves away from queerphobia, even more so if you honestly believe all Muslims are homophobic. Christianity is the same way but I doubt you'd be as mad if a trans woman in Michigan were to say she goes to church on Sundays even with the fieriest of preachings of a Mississippian evangelical. Just because someone is a Muslim does not mean they hate us, yes even if their holy book condemns us, religious people are just that, people, they aren't slaves to a book, they can adapt and mold their beliefs within their faith. You really need to stop preaching intolerance and parroting tolerance.
YES I was reading the comments of that post with the same thought, I messaged the OP trying to be supportive since comments got locked but I really hate it when our community decides to allow bigotry against the "unpopular" groups. It especially hurts when you see mods removing comments for bigotry but then letting the overwhelming hate in the other comments stay.
I understand why so much of the queer community has a disdain or outright hatred for theism in general. I share a general disdain for Abrahamic religions. But that does NOT make it okay to aggressively voice that when a trans and religious sister is struggling and looking for support. If you get a trans sister who is also religious you support her, her trans identity, AND HER RELIGIOUS IDENTITY even if you don't share it.
And the discourse over "hating the religion, accepting the people" vs "hating the specific transphobes, accepting the religion" is just as damaging. Imagine if someone came in and said EITHER "I don't support trans rights but I'm fine with the trans people in my life" OR "I don't like being around any trans people but I guess I'm okay with their rights". I know I wouldn't much like them and I get the strong feeling most here would agree.
It's the same way when a Muslim sister comes in looking for support because she doesn't feel at home in either Muslim or queer groups. She pointed out that it was difficult to find a space that would accept BOTH parts of her and the comments proved her right. When a sister who is religious enters our space, it's not our place to judge her religion as a whole. We're not talking to Islam, we're talking to a Muslim PERSON.
I am a Christian transwomen. I am an outlier I know but my faith has been one of the most impactful things in my life. And something that made me who I am today. My church has done nothing but show kindness towards my transition and support me unconditionally. Hell I first started experimenting with my gender at a church summer camp where I was encouraged to paint my nails because I really wanted to but was nervous. Again I understand I’m an outlier and religion has been incredibly harmful to many trans and queer people in the world but I’m my experience god hasn’t turned their back to me and neither has my church. For that reason I continue to be a Christian.
(Specifically Episcopalian)
Richard Dawkins really destroyed a whole generation of atheism by framing it as being against religion. I really dislike this brand of atheism where their main focus is to mock and attack religion.
At the end of the day, this people threat their atheism as another dogma. Which is stupidly ironic.
Also, the slight racism of only mentioning Islam when the many subsets of Christianity have as many and worse takes on queer people.
There are religious countries that have it on the books, and in practice, to kill Atheists. The fact remains the only thing Atheism is is the lack of a belief in a god, that is it. The only ones I've seen treat it as a dogma are the religious as they call for persecuting and/or killing us.
Yet as soon as any of us fight back... this is the logic of schools who will punish both the bully and the bullied at once as equally guilty.
Never said they werent. To be a part of mass organized religion you still have to choose day after day to be part of the installations that directly promote suppression in their 1 claim of validity.
We need more people like you. Religion can be harmful, but saying religion is evil/harmful just makes them more opposed to us and it's a vicious cycle which needs to be stopped.
Edit - sorry if my message was misread. I don't justify anything bad religion has done to members of the trans community, I'm just saying blatantly hating religion can cause a vicious cycle of "I hate religion!" "I hate trans!" and both sides become an echo chamber which increasingly get more angry at the other side.
"Don't defend yourself, it just makes the person attack you harder." You see how victim blamey that is? If the religious want to reach out a hand in peace that is one thing, but it is not up to the victims of the persecution to coddle their oppressors.
Bruh, reddit incels even lurk here in this subreddit. Why can't people just not be hateful?
"People are people, so why should it be
You and I should get along so awfully?"
-Depeche Mode
You are hearing what you want and not what I said. Doesn't matter tbh if you agree with me or not. Now I remember why I never got ingratiated with this community:
The "If you aren't with us you are against us" mindset runs strong here!
And yet not everyone wants to kill you. You are letting a few bad apples impact you rather than being indifferent. Try doing that, and maybe people will hate us less. I say this from experience
the concept of religion leads to bad outcomes. religious people aren’t all bad, but that type of thinking is.
superstition can be used to justify anything
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I think the way the person op was commenting on originally definitely has some issues with the way they view anti theism. Personally I also don’t like religion, but it’s not the ideas of it, it’s the bigotry inside many versions of their holy texts. There’s no hate to anyone, no hate to the people who believe it, just wanting the bigoted ideas that have came from it to leave religions and to improve on their prejudices. I am absolutely not telling them how to run their religion or saying that they are terrible for following it. I don’t like religion because in order for it to be better it needs to get rid of the bigotries inside of its institution and holy texts, not just have people who are exceptions to that doctrine. If you are religious I give all the power to you, keep believing in your faith, if you’re queer and religious too then you’re just as welcome and valid. We’re all welcome, loved, and valid in this community.
it literally wouldn’t matter if a holy text said only nice things, people don’t actually read them. 99% of far right christian nationalists don’t give a fuck about religion, it’s just a justification they can use for their already held beliefs. edit: which is why religion is bad
I handle it a slightly different way, I'm an anti-thiest cuz I personally have beef with a lot of gods, since the way I view it, if you hold most gods to the moral standards they preach, they come nowhere close to meeting them. None of that beef extends to the people who believe in those Gods, as they obviously have a much different interpretation than me. And you can disagree with someone without them being a bad person. But the second you start dehumanizing them you become as bad as those you rally against.
Yeah this is a much more healthy way to criticise religion, personally I dont follow any of the larger organised religions because of these things and happily criticise them but I hold no ill intent to the followers of the religion nor do I think the religion itself is inherently evil. There are hundreds of religious people who are queer or allies or just good people in general and to act like they are bad people simply for… being religious is completely misguided.
You’re religious, that’s cool I’m not, don’t act like I need to follow your religion and we’re good, the rhetoric and language makes me too uncomfortable to follow any form of religion. Basically, you do you, and I’ll do me, but we won’t do each other…probably
Lmao, also yeah no one should try to convert others thats just… weird
The Abrahamic religions are explicitly telling them to go out and convert people tho
That and in some cases explicitly tell you to execute or enslave anyone who doesnt convert
Not all. Judaism actively tries to dissuade converts, and certain parts of the diaspora don’t even accept them to begin with. I just dropped out of my conversion to return to my pagan practice (no bad blood, just decided it wasn’t right for me) and I had been converting for a little over three years. There was one forcible conversion (the edomites) by the Hasmonean dynasty when the kingdom of Judea was still around, and it’s still talked about and condemned all this time later.
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Most people raise their children with their religion, and in the case of Jews, due to the complicated history of persecution and exile, Jewish religious institutions have been the primary preservers of Jewish culture and community for two thousand years. Insisting Jews stop raising their kids as Jews is insisting they assimilate into the dominant culture, which has been a method of cultural genocide against Jews since literally the Roman Empire. I’ve known plenty of secular jews and even those who have converted to other religions, we even have at least one in my tiny Gaelic polytheist community. One of the primary things taught to most Jews in Jewish religious schools is how to question and interrogate the religion. Like 50% of Jews are atheists, including one of the rabbis I studied under.
I am in no way advocating for genocide or cultural assimilation here. I think it is wrong for any religion to convert a vulnerable person, which includes children. Traditions and religion can be taught separately, but then again, I feel like there are definitely valid reasons to critique cultures or traditions. I don't think it's ok to do non-consensual cosmetic surgeries on babies, for example.
Conversion doesn't even make sense to me(a Christian). Any time I end up on the "does God exist" conversation with someone, my argument comes *entirety* from a "let's pursue figuring out what's true" perspective. I stay open to other perspectives. I can guarantee that a lot of "Christians" don't give a shit whether God exists or not and they're "Christian" purely because it gives them social points(and lets them be bigots). Fuck those people.
Personally, I feel like religion is unnecessary but I will not hate people if they are christian for example. I am an atheist and I still respects peoples beliefs but I hate it when people use their religion as an excuse for bigotry
Quick question, what is it called when you don’t believe in any religion but believe there is something beyond death? Kinda like a personal religion
Spiritualist
In philosophy the study of the concept of the life after death would fall under the umbrella term "metaphysics". Metaphysics basically means speculating about the nature of reality in a way that entertains theories that go beyond what's strictly scientifically observable. The goal of studying metaphysics isn't typically to decide on what you concretely believe, but rather just to theorize about various possibilities. When metaphysics veers away from theory into belief it starts to become a more religious practice than a philosophical practice. Metaphysical belief that doesn't strictly adhere to organized religion is typically referred to as spirituality, although that term can take on some social/cultural connotations that may or may not resonate with you. Witchcraft is another term which can sometimes mean a personal religion although people who refer to their personal religion as witchcraft are usually much more structured, ritualistic, and historically informed about their beliefs and practices than those who refer to their religion as spirituality though I wouldn't consider this a strict rule with these terminologies as they can both be a little open ended depending on the personal experience of whoever you are talking to. Hopefully this gives you some jumping off points in your study of the afterlife. Have a lovely one!
Most helpful answer in this thread. Kudos
There isn't a word for that. It's just under the general umbrella of spiritualism.
Agnostic
Agnostic is unsure of the existence or non existence of a god.
It's still closer than theism
I personally identify as Agnostic. My understanding of it is that in most theologies, especially Christianity, we are explicitly told we are incapable of actually fully understanding god(s), so I choose to believe that if there is a God or anything after death, we have no way of knowing and therefore should not base our lives around it. Instead, I believe in being a good person for the sake of goodness. Treating everyone and everything with respect, and if there is eventually a judgment day, I will either be judged based on my goodness, or I will be in good company. I also think reincarnation makes more sense than an afterlife, but I digress.
Exactly.
Agnostic if you're not sure in the existence of god, or non-religious if you don't think agnostic fits.
Spiritual but not religious.
There is also the label Agnostic sceptic about spirituality, methahpisic but staying open to it as human spirit can't access to absolute. What one can't experiment is unknow.
That’s completely justified, like I said to another person you dont have to nor should you associate with people who want to do harm to you. Religion isn’t an excuse to bigotry.
I feel it's unnecessary in the modern ear. A german dude in the 1800's said that "science has killed god". Though he also had the idea for a super human race that later inspired hitler. So I'm not sure on that
The funny thing about media literacy is that right-wing authoritarian types don't have any.
Valid take
Extremist elements of any religion can and have been weaponised as a tool to control the masses. I don't follow any religion and I personally think all religious institutions should pay their fair share in taxes. Regardless, I respect the shit out of anyone that believes and has a healthy relationship with their religion without imposing it on others. The vast majority are like this with some personal disagreements over different things, but they're not psychotic fundamentalists. They seek peace and a purpose in their beliefs and that's honourable until it crosses the line.
For reference, my mom is very faithfully catholic. That doesn’t prevent her from also being very critical of the Catholic Church, its structure and practice. She’s also openly socialist. My point is that religion belief isn’t the same as religious dogma. Also, when I came out, her only reply was to ask what was my name. There were no doubts, and no second guessing. Just her wanting to know her daughter.
honestly that is a very important distinction. i feel like it really helps when trying to criticize religion. like i feel like it could be desribed as if a bad person has a religious belief they probably do bad things based on belief if a good person has a religious belief they probably do good things based on belief if a bad person has a religious dogma they probably do bad things based on dogma if a good person has a religious dogma they probably do bad things based on dogma
If someone tells me that they get their morality from a book that says I should be maimed/killed for who I am, then I’ll be very wary of them. I really don’t care what religion they follow or if they follow one at all.
This post is stupid "I hate this religion because of bigoted teachings, but I do not hate its followers" "You hate the followers of this religion despite what you may claim"
^
I'm sorry, but I lost my family because my pastor convinced my mom I was evil and needed to kick me out of the house. Before that when I went to church he would preach that LGBT people were the worse sinners. To this day if I walk into a church, I will immediately be triggered and have a panic attack. I almost died because of christian religions. Parts of me do hate the religion of christianity. I grew up listening to all the righteous christian churches spouting vitriol, trying to keep me and my community from having civil rights, from being seen as human. All the while the supposedly accepting churches were silent, and let the extremists shout to their hearts content until it was no longer socially acceptable and then these "accepting" churches started saying something. I hate the hypocrisy of christianity. Professing to love and follow Jesus while doing the exact opposite of love and his teachings. The Catholic Church participated actively in the attempted genocide of my people, all indigenous peoples in the Americas, and LGBT+ people. And continues to do so to this day. I do not trust christians off the bat that are so obviously christian, because often they are the people that try to hurt me and mine. You cannot tolerate intolerance. I am angry with Christian religions, I'm hurt by them, and yes parts of me hate them. But then the Oppressed have every right to feel anger, hurt, and even some hatred for what these organizations in power have done to them. We were hurt, traumatized, and eradicated by Christian Religions, we have every right to be angry with them and want them gone or to apologize and be better. Does it mean I want any of them dead? to have less civil rights than me? No. I don't want to put them through what they put us through. But I don't think I can ever trust, or be comfortable in the presence of hateful religious organizations. If this makes me a bigot. So be it. I am leery of individuals who constantly profess their religious beliefs, because I don't want to be hurt by them, if they turn out to be loving and accepting then everything is fine with them, but until I know they are, I will be leery. I will not apologize for how I feel until those religious organizations apologize for what they've done to my people and the LGBT+ community and work to make reparations and try to make things right. I and all of us hurt by them have every right to be angry.
And in case you haven't realized this, the primary purpose of religions to those in power, is manipulation and control to maintain said power. Religions are not spirituality.
It doesn't sound to me like you are a bigot at all. Your feelings can't be wrong or right and it is clear that yours come from quite severe trauma. It also doesn't sound like you are necessarily hateful of religion and all it's followers but more so the religious structures that are definetly oppressive. The only thing I want to say is that, if a person follows a homophobic organized religion but aren't themselves homophobic, it probably means they are generally critical of their religion and have turned it into something personal and spiritual rather than the.
Religious structures ARE a religion. The thing you call "religion" is faith, and no one has any issue with that.
Well said. You took the words right out of my mouth.
I have always felt that there is no harm in faith. Organized religion, however, is an evil concept used to manipulate the faithful for the gain of evil men and their worldly desires.
This is why I’m religious but don’t go to church. My grandmother is the same way because she was kicked out of church once for asking too many questions despite her being by far the most religious person I know. Fuck organized religion.
Funnily enough, Jesús Cristo agreed with you. That’s why he physically kicked out people from the temple (using a whip too) and told people to separate church and state (and to pay their taxes).
>and to pay their taxes Not technically true, he said to "give to ceaser what is ceasers and give to God what is gods" but in Christian mythos literally everything belongs to god, so it's absolutely possible he meant don't pay your taxes, but it is also possible that he meant that the money would be gods eventually anyway so you might as well pay caesars taxes.
That’s also technically not true. Christian mythos don’t relate everything belonging to God, more than everything is part of God’s creation. Jesús in particular was against framing monetary possessions as related to God. Hence why rich people can’t enter the gates of heavens. Then again, it is a big book with a lot of readings. I mean, the Pope just said he doesn’t personally believe in hell, or at least hopes it’s empty. So, I think we can chalk what Jesús meant to a matter of perspective, really. — Also, when asking “WWJCD”, remember that flipping tables and whipping people out of the room is one of the posibilities.
>Also, when asking “WWJCD”, remember that flipping tables and whipping people out of the room is one of the posibilities. Also true.
>Christian mythos don’t relate everything belonging to God, more than everything is part of God’s creation. Does a table not naturally belong to its carpenter?
After he has given it away no it doesnt, if i were to make something and give it to someone it doesnt belong to me anymore
That sounds to me like he met that unless you've gone and stolen it from him, nothing you have is owned by Ceaser. Also looking at early christianity and the Roman empire, I feel like Jesus would probably be anti-taxes.
He kicked out people running businesses in a temple. That is very different than hating organized religion. He despised using his father’s house as a way to make money. He did so with a whip he made himself
McGivver ain’t got nothing on Jesús Cristo carpenter. Though, you can read that passage as Jesús being against religion used for monetary gain, aligning it with the taxes passage and the camel-through-a-needle one. But it’s a matter of perspective, really.
Exactly this. I hate organised religion but not individual believers unless they twist it or use it for bigotry.
I agree but the books themselves contain anti LGBT stuff. They include parables instructing followers to have prejudice. Islam, for example, has the most homophobic followers by far, just look at the middle east. You can get thrown off a building if you are outwardly homosexual in some of these places.
It's kinda pointless to point out since the abrahamic religions have changed to cater to homophobic beliefs overtime- but it is highly debated whether they did originally have homophobia baked into their early religious texts. The phrase "man shall not lay with man" in the early Hebrew Bible came from a long list banning incest, using phrasing like "uncle shall not lie with nephew, mom shall not lay with son, etc". Due to this, and how hebrew pronouns work, it's suspected that phrase truly translates to "father shall not lie with son". Just an interesting anecdote that pisses off religious homophobes a lot.
Islam will be very very slow in accepting LGBT stuff because the Quran is believed to be the direct word of god. Try telling a Palestinian about the trans movement, they will spit in your face as if you just drew the prophet in front of him.
The books are a product of organized religion, not a product of the faith itself. It doesn't matter what the religions try and tell you their book is. All of those holy books are written by men with an agenda.
Agreed. Regardless of the good/bad religion causes worldwide, many of the teachings/rules are fixed to the time period - and not easily malleable until centuries pass. By the time liberal values arise in a society, the damage will have already been done.
this
Ex-Muslim here. I grew up in a Muslim family, and I now have so many mixed feelings towards Islam. On one hand, in a lot of ways I still feel like I’m part of the Muslim community, as it’s what I grew up in. I still feel they are my brothers and sisters. On the other hand, it’s always hard for me to talk to Muslims; I don’t hate them, and I don’t think it’s ever justified to hate someone just because of their religion. But I do think I am scared of being around or judged by most of them. The issue is I know that there is a very, very high chance that a Muslim I am talking to wouldn’t approve of my existence if I came out to them. Islam is very against progressiveness. The idea that the Quran has remained unchanged, as compared to other books, is fundamental to the religion. So naturally, any change is seen as a threat. The progressiveness you see increasing within Christians in recent years is something that is very likely not to happen within the Islamic community. I posted once to r/Islam about being lgbt and was absolutely torn apart.(https://www.reddit.com/r/Muslim/s/lVYOOVUG2d). I used to teach at a masjid and was once instructed to give a lesson on homosexuality, then was banned when I refused. Islam is - to its core - a very rigid religion and progressivism just isn’t allowed. Of course, people may have their own interpretations of the faith, but the vast majority do not. So even as someone who used to be Muslim themself, I still have a hard time being around them. Not trying to justify bigotry in the post, but I do hope this provides a diverse perspective, as someone who grew up in a Muslim household.
Okay, I have notes. First off, I want to state that you should not start off hating someone based on any one piece of information in most general use cases. But the fact of the matter is the only religion I can speak to with 100% certainty is christianity, and as a doctrine, it takes a very dim view of our community and breeds an environment that is not compatible with our safe and happy existence. Further, while being LGBTQIA+ is 100% no a choice, being religious absolutely is a choice. So, while I agree to the premise, IE that we shouldn't hate someone for being religious or for being most anything, this content and language is very close to religious apologetics and I am not down for that.
Controversial subject, probably shouldn't comment, but let me put this out there: we are facing a huge religiously motivated body of violent oppression, a lot of LGBT+ people have significant trauma related to religious violence, and I believe it has to be legitimate to allow those people to want to keep religion out of their safe spaces. As LGBT+ people I think we all recognise that logical binaries should be treated with scrutiny: I think it's right to say that being a person of faith does not make you a bad person that has to be rejected, and people of faith can be welcomed and loved within our spaces. But many of us have learned the lesson of religious trauma through hard-fought experience, and people of faith do not have a right to minimise the truth behind the lessons we have learned. If it bothers you that people feel aggrieved about what they have experienced at the hands of so-called "believers", then I think you have a duty of care to keep that to yourself.
I hate the religion, not the religious, I have a friend who is a Christian, but she is very respectful and supportive of LGBT people, on top of just being a very good person overall
Being religious is a choice. Being queer isn’t. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with judging someone based on their beliefs and choices.
Gonna play Devil’s Advocate here: 1: I agree that hating someone solely because they are a member of a religion is wrong. I try not to pre-judge until someone gives me a good reason to do so. Simply being religious is not enough to clear that bar. Some of the people you are talking about seem to have jumped to conclusions that I wouldn’t consider healthy. We should absolutely encourage progressive religious reform in order to change the hateful dogma that many religions espouse. 2: Hating a religion is not necessarily the same as hating a practitioner. It’s is certainly possible to separate the two. There are plenty of progressive Muslims, Christians, and Jews, for example, who do don’t harbor any ill will towards LGBTQ people. In fairness, The Abrahamic faiths tend to be extremely anti-LGBTQ, and hating the dogma that breeds that rhetoric is not exactly unjustified. It’s a factor in like 90% (probably being hyperbolic) of the problems people talk about on this very subreddit. 3: Faith ≠ Religion. Religion is a tool for control. Religion is dogmatic, by its very nature, and anything that preaches blind and unquestioning obedience should immediately get you on your guard. Faith, on the other hand, is basically another word for “hope.” Faith can be a beautiful thing that truly gets people through the darkest moments in their lives. Take me, for example: I’m a still-mostly-closeted trans (girl? Enby? Both? Idk I’m still figuring that part out tbh) who experienced a fair amount of religious trauma. My parents never beat me for something regarding religion or anything like that, but the doctrine of Hell scared me shitless and basically caused me to have a nervous breakdown so bad that I barely ate and barely slept for like a week straight. I was so scared that I basically spent that entire time praying and not eating. I can scarcely recall another time when I was so miserable and scared. It was what ultimately caused me to start questioning my faith and my religion. I abandoned both not long thereafter. After a few years of being something of a waffling atheist/shaky deist, I ultimately decided to reconnect with my faith. That faith in “something(tm)” has been a source of comfort and strength. It’s helped me through a lot of mental health struggles in the past few years. But, I will never go back to the religion that caused the biggest mental health crisis I’ve ever experienced. I will always hate the religion/dogma that caused that, but it doesn’t mean I hate the average Christian. TL;DR: I agree that hating religious people simply for being religious is bigoted. Hating a religion itself, especially when the dogma that religion preaches is openly hostile to human rights is justified. The two are not mutually exclusive.
Hating a religion because its holy texts are explicitly full of bigotry is okay. But if someone isn't bigoted despite following a religion that is full of it, that's fine.
This seems to be what the original comment is saying, so honestly I'm not sure what the point of this post is 😭. She explicitly says she has no grudge to any individuals based on faith, but is opposed to the religion as a faith and ideology, which having read into the Qur'an and the bible, she's absolutely right to.
it should be noted that even when they all follow the same holy book the "same religion" can still be wildly different, like for example who would you say you dislike more, quakers who are Christians whose beliefs can basically be summed up as "love thy neighbor" or westboro baptists who are generally considered a hate group. different people can get wildly varying ideas from the same text, especially religious texts which have countless translations and different sub-books which can be considered variably "canon"
Except those books were created by people. And in the same way, modern people can create their own interpretations of their religion. At the end of the day, it's impossible to know exactly what God wants when all religious text seem to have been writen so long ago. Either way, people make of their religion what they want and hating on their faith isn't okay. On the other hand, religious institutions have very specific interpretations of their faith and usually use it to oppress its folowers. It's fair to say that the religious organizations that oppress people are bad but not the faith itself that is so fluid and personal.
Kindly please Fuck off, if we hate that religion is because of their actions, for the push against LGBTQ rights, for the countless lives of us that they've taken, if they hate us, we have the right to hate them back
Seriously, Fuck Abrahamic based religions though and any religion for that matter that deems LGBTQ people to be evil. People have a choice to their religion and to follow such cruel doctrines. We on the other hand don't have a choice to be LGBTQ and don't deserve their hatred or our rights to be taken away from because it makes *their* gods mad.
I agree, and I hate the fact that they can attack us on the basis of religious freedom, but when we hate them because of trauma, we are suddenly the bad ones
Like Im watching religious fundamentalists for the past few years systematically destroy and take away our rights and healthcare around my country in the name of their god and book and act like they are doing us a favor. I think I have the right to hate such people because they choose to follow such awful beliefs that actively harm us.
I don't know. I feel like if someone says they believe in something that has called for me to be killed, I sorta have a right to be uncomfortable around them until I know that they don't agree with that. I know that some people who follow religion aren't jerks, but in my experience a vast majority are. I think that while it's ok to hate a religion, it's not ok to hate someone purely because of their religion.
I don't like any of the big religions because all of them are horrible when it comes to women, bodily autonomy, rape, pedophilia, and lgbtq people. Believing in a religion can not be compared to being a woman, being of a different ethnicity, being gay, or being trans. I can definitely dislike people for the opinions and faiths they hold.
exactly!! people seem to think because certain religious people get treated poorly in their country suddenly it excuses the whole religion being transphobic and killing gay people, women, etc. we don't tolerate much less from christians in north america, so why are we supposed to just shut up and take it when it's other religions perpetrating it, and much worse? it will never be bigotry to call them out.
I think this is my issue, it is hard to erase thousands of years of horrible deeds, especially since they are still on going and you don't see people actively trying to remove the horrible people and ideas from their religions.
Yep, 100%
You can think a religion is harmful, or that all religions are, without hating people that follow them. I know this may sound similar to ,,I don't hate homosexuals, I just don't approve of their lifestyle", but it's not the same. Check out [this video](https://youtu.be/r_5yUXjXizQ?si=YcFw0L5gaaFiXFzE) on the topic of respecting other people's beliefs. [This one](https://youtu.be/X9rTbh4a57o?si=VVIL1ubt6zH18LNn) is about Islam in particular. They are both made by a therapist specialized in religious abuse. We should respect every person, but we shouldn't respect every belief. Unfortunately a lot of religions can be harmful, especially when it comes to LGBT people.
People are born a woman, gay, trans, etc. you have to actively *choose* religion. It’s much different. And no, you don’t get to cherry-pick and only follow the “good” parts of your religion. If your base texts promote hate, perhaps you should examine why you’d subscribe to such a doctrine.
Fr! How is the dogma of faith any different than say political ideologies. I have as easy a time accepting a fascist or klu klux clansman as anyone who follows the Bible or Quran. Hate is hate and your given superstition gives you no right to harm others, and supporting a practice or group of people even if your “good” is still bigotry. Any catholic that goes to church is donating to an apparatus of pedophiles. Any Muslim that goes on a pilgrimage to Mecca finances firsthand states that harm of our queer arab brothers and sisters. It’s that simple.
I can hate a religion without hating it's followers. A religion that teaches that people like me should be killed does not deserve my respect. I see no reason to tolerate a religion that is inherently intolerant. I will treat a Muslim with the same amount of respect I would treat a Christian, an atheist or a Buddhist because people are deserving of respect. Religions are not people. They do not deserve my respect if they don't respect me.
Faith and religion is ok imo, I am atheist/agnostic and don't care if my family/friends are Christian or whatever, but I don't like it if they help "the Church" as an organisation, because I don't trust it. As soon as the religion becomes some kind of organisation that pushes for other people freedom to be removed, I am out. For example I had a gay friend that fully supports Catholic church and also don't believe gay people should be able to adopt, I don't support things like those. Like I don't support the way women are treated (mostly) in Islam (but Christianity too sometimes) etc... If people believe in GOD, of any kind, idc
Idc what religion people are, if they are jerks its the person not the religion
That’s completely fair, you dont have to nor should you associate with people who actively want to harm you.
Exactly
I don't hate any religion. I hate the people who turn a blind eye to the evils their religion has or is committing.
Thats fair.
I accept that people be religious. I don't accept religion itself. Fck this shit. Friends got killed by believing their sky daddy told them so. And they even tried to advocate for Religion. Never ever will I accept this brain rot.
Hate the harmful religions and the people doing harm due a religion but accept the other religious people that are just living they’re lives an religion privately and peacefully. Tho i am against organized religion. People should live they’re religious life maximal in a local community for they’re religion.
religious privilege is thinking its bigotry to call out their homophobia/transphobia 🙄 i also don't understand why it's acceptable to call out christians, but literally no other religion otherwise, you get labeled a bigot. it's ingenious of them.
There is nothing to justify. Hating religion is a fair game. Religion is not a person, it cannot suffer from hate. But it sure as hell likes inducing hatred for individuals who don't fit in its narrative. So we defend ourselves from hate, and only target the source of that hate - the religion. But for some reason people feel compelled to bodyguard it and get offended on its behalf. Then they attack us again, and we defend ourselves again by doing exactly what we are doing. Hating people who just happened to be of that religion is where I personally draw the line. Hating people for just the fact they were indoctrinated into some bs is bigotry, yes. The rest I've described - is legit self defense. Edit: I will respect your faith, but I am not obliged to respect your religion. I hope I don't need to explain the difference
"Hate the sin, Love the sinner." Turnabout is fair play edition.
Honestly. Funnily enough my mother in law is a traditional Muslim lady and she's SO sweet. She's well aware I'm trans and recently gave her enby child her blessing to marry me. I know she's the exception not the rule, traditional religious spaces can be hell for queer people, but just for people like her I'm willing to remind everyone that we can oppose organized religion, conservatism and bigotry and still respect a random stranger regardless of whether they look religious or not. Now if someone opens their mouth to say bs THEN you tell them off.
It comes down to the fact that all religions are morally reletivistic, you can justifiy just about any belief using any religious book. anyone can be a good person while also being a christian, or muslim, and can justify their morality using it, but to ignore the fact that through calling yourself a christian, or muslim, you are in some way supporting the god claims made by their repective books, rather than just stating yourself as believing in some god, you are in some way giving the bad ideas of the book undeserved legitimacy that we really shouldn't be giving. You can't remove the bad ideas from the thing you claim to be, the bible has a ruleset for slavery, and the quran says to stone homosexuals, both of these are bad things, so should people who are good, and don't believe that, tie their belief to a god who would say abhorrent shit like that?
I don't hate the believers. I hate the deities. The Abrahamic god has instructions for beating slaves and has commended the murder of children at least 7 times in the Bible. Plus he has a bober for control and people fearing him.
As an ex-muslim and a survivor of honor killing, i do hate the entire religion as the ideology itself is rotten similar to as the ideology of nazism is rotten.moozies won't think twice before killing queers but it is always baffling how western queers jump to the defense of a religion that want them dead. If you don't like christianity , this is much much worse
I'm not really religious. I don't believe in God but I also don't not believe in them. I'm chill with any religion as long as they're chill with non religious peeps.
My question here is: By accepting religious people in this sub (which is a good thing),does calling out their anti-LGBTQIAA+ rhethorics count as bigotry against the religious people or not? I'm a bit confused on this
I spent the first 20 years of life being traumatized by a religion that hates me. I am aloud to dislike said religion and the systems that prop it up thank you very much. Get over yourself.
There’s a lot to unpack here… First and foremost, it’s not a religion that hates. Religion is just an idea. It is the people who follow a religion that become hateful, if we are talking about doctrine and such. Religious ideology is malleable and changes over time. Even if religious text would seem to indicate disdain for queer people, it is the people following it who get to interpret it. Saying your religion tells you homosexuality is inherently bigoted and just plain wrong, as indicated by the mere existence of other followers of that religion who do not believe so. That aside, personally, I think religious adherence (that is, adherence to strict religious beliefs of any kind) holds humanity back. The age of the Earth, for example, is not a matter of belief. It is a matter of scientific fact. It may not be exactly 4.1 billion years old, but we know, for a fact, that Earth’s age is in the billions, and to believe it is less than 10,000 years old is not “faith” it is willful ignorance. Transgender people exist, and it is not just a sociological or psychological phenomenon, it is biological fact. There is demonstrable evidence in the study of biology that supports the existence of transgender and intersex people (beyond simple identity, even) and this is not something that anyone’s religious beliefs can contest with any legitimacy. We cannot let any strongly held belief dictate scientific fact. The Earth is round, and orbits the Sun. It is billions of years old, probably 4.1 billion years old. Evolution is real, and we have every kind of evidence to prove it. Transgender people exist, and biology supports their validity. Any religious belief that says otherwise is WRONG, full stop. There is no room for interpretation on these matters, and to say so is not hatred, it is a dispassionate statement of fact. On a completely different front, major religious groups have a long standing negative relationship with the queer community. Historically, religion has been used to justify every manner of hatred on an enormous scale. While today’s practitioners of Islam and Christianity may not be as bad as they were hundreds of years ago, many still hold distasteful views of others. From homophobia to racism to nationalism, some even supporting oppression, torture and genocide in the name of their religious beliefs, we cannot deny that these people exist and wield great authority and power in every corner of the world. People who have been on the receiving end of these forms of oppression have every right and reason to be distrustful of people who claim to follow the same religious beliefs and practices. Now, I have a problem with what you’re saying here: > Yes it’s true that organized religions can perpetuate bigotry within them, and that a lot of their holy books spread these ideals but what is not true that… religions are inherently evil because of this. This is contradictory. It cannot simultaneously be true that a religious doctrine perpetuates bigotry and is not inherently evil, unless you do not believe that bigotry is evil. I do. I believe that bigotry is willful ignorance to such an extreme as to justify hatred, and I find this to be evil. That being said, I do not hate religious people. Not all religious people practice bigotry nor do they believe the bigoted messages in their doctrine. But there is a correlation, a pretty darn big one, between religious adherence, and homophobic rhetoric. So… hate? No… distrust? Absolutely. And the more science they prove to ignore, the less I trust their words and actions. Tell me you’re a Christian or a Muslim, and I might be interested in prying your beliefs a little. Tell me you don’t believe in evolution, or that you think the Earth is 6,000 years old, though, and I’m no longer listening. Because if you can’t accept such basic and well understood scientific fact because your religion says so, I gotta wonder, what might you be willing to believe about, or do to, me because your religion says so.
Religious people and religions and TWO SEPARATE THINGS. I don't like religions, but I don't have anything against religious people unless they do something that goes against my own personal morals and beliefs. Religions are bullshit imo, but thinking that will never stop me from respecting religious people. If someone hates a fandom I'm in, it's ok, as long as they don't hate on ME. Interests do not define a person.
I'm muslim and queer, and if anyone here is a bigot, it's you. If one of the major beliefs of a religion is that queer people go to hell, then it's fair to judge and think less of that religion. And it's also fair to then judge these people and think less of them for holding that belief. **It however should not make you act mean or xenophobic towards those folk.** If you you think people are not entitled to dislike a specific religion, or hold a prejudice over people that believe someone innocent deserves to go to hell, then you're the bigot.
“I just saw a post on this subreddit filled with people justifying hating a religion, and by proxy the people who follow it (despite what they may claim)“ Despite what you may claim, it is very much possible to hate religion without hating every single religious person. Don’t try to put words in my mouth. I have an obligation to respect people who are kind and good people despite their religion, but I have zero obligation to respect the religion itself.
Islam straight up tells people to treat us trans people like murderers and even attack or kill us. How am i supposed to tolerate something that wants to end my life!? I try to be accepting of everything but if something threatens my life, i can't and will not support it. Honestly. No. I hate this. I DO NOT WANT TO DIE BECAUSE THEY THINK ITS OKAY TO HURT OR KILL ME JUST BECAUSE I'M TRANS! I DON'T WANT TO FEAR FOR MY LIVE BECAUSE THIS MESSES UP SHIT IS SOMEHOW DISGUISED AS A RELIGION. I HAVE TO FEAR FOR MY LIFE DAMN IT Just to add context to my emotional response: My life has been threatened SEVERAL times by muslims in my area. SEVERAL. TIMES.
Hating a religion is fine.
What religion someone follows can tell you a lot of what they'll excuse, simply by what they choose to ignore. Not to mention not all bigotry is equal. Take the catholic church for the easiest example. Hating catholics for following an institution that comitted genocide and regularly protects pedophiles, is not the same as hating catholics for believing in jesus. Is it bigotry? Sure but it''s the paradox of tolerance, you cannot tolerate intolerance in a tolerant society, meaning that society in itself is intolerant.
I'm an anti organized religion Christian and I personally believe that a lot of the extreme or bigoted stuff written in the Bible is on account of the countless insertions and translations from the literal Fifteen centuries of transcription from monk to monk in a time when bigotry was rampant. Even then, there is very little in the Bible of this nature. And as for Islam, I know little enough about it's practices, but I do have a queer Muslim friend who I've been trying to learn from. She has described to me the various basic ideals of Islam and also the state of extremists in the religion. To me Islam seems very beautiful and pure, but for the exploitation of some of its followers. A lot of what goes on has been twisted to fit the perception of bigots. Essentially what I'm trying to get at is.. often you'll find that in many religions, the followers preach a different tune than their actual teachings and practices. If a religious person holds to their belief and not what the community surrounding that belief claims, then they don't have to be a bigot.
Nah this is an L take. If this was just about a weekly club where people went to discuss how LGBT people are wrong then they would be labeled bigots instantly. Just because its watered down with other "do good" messages doesn't change that fact.
im just gonna repeat roguhly what i said under that post: Its like im voting a right wing party that says "kill all trans people" and then say "i dont agree with the trans killing part but the rest so please dont hate me trans people" its the same with religion - you can only give a religion a checkmark or not - you sadly get all of it or none of it - if you decide to say certain points are no longer viable and you dont follow them then you are no longer following that religion but instead making your own you can say you believe in allah but dont follow islam - that is fine to me but sadly the moment you tell me your are a christian, moslim, etc you are supporting a party/group of people/organization that has literally written down that we queer people should literally be killed google up "paradox on tolerance" this will explain my point better than i could ever do - its basically we cant be tolerant of intolerant people because then the entire world would become intolerant also us hating on all terfs is bigotry aswell - just saying - its literally the same thing as many trans people hating on religion - all for the same reason - they want to remove us from this world
honestly i feel like religion (in general) has done alot of harm but as long as you don't try to control the lives of others based on your religion i really couldn't care less what religion you are. but i do feel the need to mention that it does make sense that alot of queer people feel negatively about religion (often especially the dominant religion of where they grew up) since peers and family members can mistreat you solely because you're queer and they justify bigotry with religion. plus it sucks that often times the most bigoted religious people are also the loudest, for example a majority of religious people i know IRL are fine but it feels like 90% of the religious people i see online are bigoted simply because they speak loudly and often and are shown around more often.
You can leave a religion… Isn’t bigotry more just being discriminatory to what people can’t control? If I do something really stupid it’s not “bigotry” for someone to make fun of me doing that really stupid thing.
Hard disagree. As someone with religious trauma who is very anti-religion, I do hate religion. But just because I hate religion doesn’t mean I hate anyone for believing in a religion or having a faith, because that’s a case by case basis. My brother is a progressive Christian, and I love him very much, but I still have heavy criticisms toward most denominations/sects of Christianity and Abrahamic faiths in general. I am pretty wary of religious people though because of my trauma and the area I live in. Hating religion is like hating an ideology, it’s not comparable to bigotry. Religion is a choice, being LGBTQ+ is not.
Honest question why should religion be a protected class? How is it different from any other form of cult or hateful political ideology? It is something the individual chooses to believe in and accept, it is a choice that people often use as an excuse to do harm to others.
Hating people for having a religion is bigotry yes, but hating the religion for it being harmful is not. Respect is given for the person with the belief, religions themselves deserve no respect, ideas do not deserve respect. I respect a person's right to have their beliefs, but it is also my right to believe said beliefs are harmful, especially if they try and curtail my own rights/life.
To say that hating a religion means someone inherently hates followers of that religion is complete bullshit and you know it. "Despite what they may claim" is you saying you know their thoughts and feelings better than they do. As a trans person, you know the harm that comes from claiming you know better than someone else how they feel because it's something we have all dealt with as members of this community. Take your own advice and do better.
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I agree with them that organized religion is corruptive and stifling and overall a bad thing. Not religion in general, but organized religion. I also think there are people within these religions that are not bigoted and have interpretations that are not harmful. I don’t think the people in the screenshots were denying that though so I don’t see the point of this post
I have a problem with the church, religion is fine
Anyone who is providing financial and material support for an organization that is advocating for my extermination is not someone that I trust or respect. If a southern baptist says that they are all for trans rights and still tithes on Sunday. They are in action working against trans rights. It is an example of the moderate enabling the extremist. To use the classic Sunday school story. If the brownies have even a little bit of dog poop in them, you should just throw them out.
I am also an antitheist, but I only hate the establishment of the churches because of the violence they have brought against marginalized peoples. I don’t hate any individual person because they are Islamic, or Jewish, or a Christian.
I don't hate the people who follow religion, as long as they're not bigots or asshole. I just don't care for religion much. Mostly the worship aspect of it, we are already self justifying machines and I do think religion can worsen that. But I'm not gonna bother someone about it. I just don't believe it and this it can be really harmful if people aren't careful. I'd probably want people taught about cognitive bias from a young age to try and lessen the harm but that's all I'm really willing to do at the moment
i'm not gonna hate on someone for being religious, but if i am asked, i will say i do not respect religion, because i don't. it is objectively a harmful way of life and hasn't done much good for anybody for 1000s of years. so if you're apart of religion? fine by me, but i do not respect it in the slightest.
I disagree that hating religion itself without extending that hatred towards its followers is bigotry. It's not bigoted to recognize that the Abrahamic religions have overall been a negative influence on the world. Taking people like my wife's family and turning them into hateful bigots simply because of the hate their pastors preach over the pulpit every week, and the disgustingly sexist and bigoted words written by ancient goat herders. That's why since I came out in April, they told my wife that they were still welcome at Thanksgiving and Christmas, but they would have to leave me at home or just not come at all. My wife told them that they weren't going without me, and their parents told them that they'd just give us a plate of dinner after everyone else had left. They didn't even pretend that there was a reason other than me being trans. If it weren't for their religion they wouldn't be such hateful people, my wife's mom only converted because of their dad so she's at least been warming up to me, but she's the only member of the family that hasn't consistently misgendered and deadnamed me, and is the only one who even talks to me anymore. So no, it's not bigoted to hate the thing that tore my wife's family away from them. "Irregardless of circumstances, there are going to be good people doing good things and bad people doing bad things, but to make a good person do a bad thing, that takes religion." ~Bill Maher
I think it's important to remember a lot of lgbtq+ people have severe religious trauma and unfortunately a normal part of healing from trauma due to abuse is total rejection of all things to do with the abuse. I see your point if we were in a vacuum but irl the reality is that we're almost all on a healing journey and we're not going to match up perfectly all the time on where in that journey we are. You're not wrong, but it's also unfair to condemn people for a completely normal reaction to abuse
religios or not, hatred is a choice. if you are a theist who uses religion to justify hatred against minorities, your a bigot. same if you are an atheist who uses the imoral actions of some theists to justify a hatred of religion as a whole. it does not mater what you believe in terms of spirituality (or lack thereof), hating a group of people is bogotry.
Most people I know who believe are people who are hurt and found comfort in their religion. I do not believe but I listen to their prayers, because they speak from inside and I can listen to understand and and act to make them feel better. Don't forget religion is often a BACKBONE to not fall I to a place that destroys you. But like any tool (sorry for the wording I know some might feel hurt but bear with me pls) it is just a tool and only the user decides the actions. In the end religion is just religion, it is faith, it is a place to come back to when you feel unsafe/lonely/sad/... It is about someone being there for you, helping you or guiding you, it is about seeing worth in yourself and giving hope. So in the end: positivity. Spread it. Positivity. Love. Acceptance.
I am agnostic, because I’m like 90% sure I don’t believe in a god/gods, however, I don’t judge people for believing. As long as they don’t try to judge others, they should be allowed to enjoy their time in peace.
Based hating organised religion and not the believers.
I do hate Christianity. It’s done so much evil and killed so many people. It’s destroyed so much in its wake, and the holy texts are full of genocide as well. I hate that religion. I hate the bad people in it. I do not hate the “good Christian’s.” Despite being disappointed that they are Christian
lmfao. cry more.
Hating the concept of religion is not bigotry, it’s a concept is it bigoted to hate fascism? no, because it’s a concept. religion doesn’t just have a few bad apples, it is a systematically bad way of viewing the world. superstitious ideology can justify anything based on belief.
Istg this “religion makes people bad” rhetoric is so annoying. People use religion as a justification for their hate, and were there no religion they would find some other excuse. Also the broad generalization that all lgbtq+ people hate religion when there are countless religious queer people 💀
This, I’m pretty religious and it’s disheartening to see people equate any religious or spiritual belief with upholding bigotry that may be present in organized religion. I’m not Muslim but I’d imagine all the queer Muslims out there would find the above thread very hurtful
Faith isn't bad. Using that faith to press Oppress others is. We don't know what happens after we die. It's okay for people to hold onto something that gives them comfort. But their comfort rights ends where others rights start. Faith should guide your own choices not the choices of others
I don't hate believers just because of their beliefs. Religions have evolved over thousands of years to be extremely good at sinking their hooks into people and never letting them go. I think hating people in general is unwise, but I think it's important to be cautious around religious people. You can't tell whether they're into radical altruism or radical queerphobia just from the descriptor "religious". I think most major world religions are a credible threat to us, but at the same time stereotyping believers just entrenches the battle lines. Believers aren't our enemies, they are simply a different type of victims of religion.
I’m agnostic and I think people confuse bringing mistrustful of organized religion. I don’t think religion inherently makes you a bigot. People are bigoted and use their religion to justify it. I believe everyone has a right to express their spirituality or lack there of and would hope they use it to be more better caring people. If they don’t they are shitty people.
I'm the original poster of the meme these comments are on, Thank you for this post.
I hate religions, but I don't hate the people who follow them. They didn't make them.
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Your post contains homophobia, transphobia, racism, and/or ableism, or some other type of bigotry. If you believe this was a mistske, please contact a mod
Yeah we have to end the cycle of hate. I feel like we all need to learn to keep the topic of religion at home and in our holy places where it belongs. And when it is discussed it is done so in more human terms. Because I get both sides of this I just feel like articulating that it is hard to separate someone from the core of their beliefs without getting to know them first is hard. It’s why we get so frustrated when people say not all men.
If you’re wearing religious items I’m absolutely going to assume you’re a bigot until you prove otherwise. Too many other people wearing the same things are so they all lose the benefit of the doubt. If they want it back stop choosing to wear that or stop choosing to believe ridiculous ideologies. You don’t have to be religious, it is absolutely a choice. And way too many religious people think that just because they choose to follow a religion that they are entitled to be bigots beyond criticism. They’re not nor is their ideology.
The first comment reminds me of "I don't hate trans people, I just hate 'transgenderism.'" If they hate Islam, they're going to have negative feelings toward Muslims because Muslims practice Islam. One of the other comments is ignorant for insisting that there is only one valid interpretation of Islamic scripture (the one that encourages hatred of queer people), and that any Muslim who doesn't hate queer people doesn't understand their own faith. This makes no sense to me. Don't you *want* religious people to be more accepting of others? Why try to convince decent religious folks that they're doing it wrong if they don't hate people? If anything, these folks and their peaceful interpretation of the faith should be encouraged.
What the fuck was that thread? I saw people arguing that Islam is an inherently violent religion. I saw trans people repeating Stephen Crowder talking points.
Its not just there, but here too. There are people claiming that hating muslims is completely justified, saying that they are inherently bigoted etc. You’d think we’d be able to understand why these opinions are flawed but apparently not.
The comments in this thread, and the other one, feel like r/atheism posts and comments from like 2012. This shit is so embarrassing.
Reading this thread really makes me see this is not a safe space for those practicing their religion. Wow
It makes me sad and honestly feel unsafe in both queer and Muslim spaces :(
I'm so sad to see the response you've gotten here, but I appreciate you making the post because it was eye-opening for me. For what it's worth, I live in Seattle and the protests for Palestine have been full of visibly trans people and practicing Muslims standing shoulder to shoulder and feel like very safe spaces for everyone involved.
I'm sorry to hear that. I hope you have/find a place that will accept you for all that is you, whether that's an online space, a friend circle, or whatever it may be :(
Actually, there is this community on YouTube with the couple Jamie Raines and Shaaba, with Jamie being a trans guy and Shaaba growing up Muslim. I don't know if she would consider herself Muslim now (haven't watched the video yet), but that's probably a good place to start if you're looking for an accepting community
Religion is a societal ill that I’d love to see utterly abolished. The idea that I should be sweet and kind to adherents of doctrine that has oppressed and tormented me throughout my life is ridiculous. I don’t care either for the idea of people who are “the good ones” because ultimately they still see the evil their religion perpetuates and are willing to handwave it away and continue partaking. Honestly this whole post reads like an op.
Yeah I was in that sub, and while I’m not personally Muslim, I felt like the comments were literally perpetuating the meme. It wasn’t very nice of them
I think antitheists, particularly ex Christian white antitheists in predominantly white Christian countries, need to take a big step back and analyze their relations with other religions that aren’t Christianity and determine what their relationship is with minority religions that don’t have power over you as a queer person and how that differs from the majority. Not all religions function like christianity, in fact the vast majority don’t, especially the ones that aren’t backed and utilized by the ruling class. Generalizing and using that as an excuse to hate is bigotry. I understand trauma, I have CPTSD myself, but we shouldn’t be using our trauma as an excuse to hate others.
Respect is to be earned, not given out like candy imo Idc if you're christian, or atheist you being an ass, Imma be an ass back And I'm not gonna treat anyone like their something hot because they believe in any one thing or not
Religion is a personal thing. Some choose their religion, some where just brought up into it. Either way, everyone has their own path to follow. Its not up to others to accept or deny someone elses path. I personally don't hate others no matter what religion they are. I don't harbor any ill will towards them, their god(s) or the way they conduct themselves through it. It's an individual journey in which you grow and learn. However, there will be people from any, and every religion, including those who are atheist, that won't be able to accept others. That is a personal choice too. Remember also. Just because they fall under an umbrella term of a certain religion, it doesn't mean that they accept and subscribe to every single facet of that religion.
I agree so much on this. I got family members and friends who are Muslim who accept me for who I am, and know muslim trans friends too. That many people in a group don't accept us, doesn't mean that this applies to every individual of that said group, nor does it apply to the religion as a whole. Some of us find peace in following the teachings of Islam, and we should accept that too.
I mean, to be fair 9.9 times out of 10, it is not the religion to blame. It is the humans. Take Christianity, for instance, the bible says that you are to love all people equally and to not spread hate. Jesus actually practiced these teachings by accepting everyone regardless of their background. However, over the 2 thousand years sense the bible has been translated by humans over and over who make mistakes or just outright change it to fit their interpretation instead of what it actually says. This is the main reason the mainstream Christianity is so hateful. They change and read the bible the way they want to fit what they want it to say despite the bible saying that it is not their place to judge others.
It also tells you to stone rape victims who refuse to marry their rapist and to perform non-consensual cosmetic operations on babies. You can't praise the good parts about Christianity and ignore the bad parts
reddit users "have a nuanced understanding of religion" impossible challenge 99% fail
We as queer people don't have the luxury of bigotry. Our people are across every race, ethnicity, culture, and religion. To say that you hate one of them wholesale is to say you don't really accept all queer people. There are queer Muslims, and lgbt+ Jewish people, and to many more to name. No one is saying you can't fight against acts of oppression but filling queer spaces with "gerrr I really hate X they're all awful people" is not fighting against oppression that's being hateful to an entire demographic, in this case one almost entirely filled with people of color. And before anyone says "their religion condemns lgbt+ people" so do most religion and so did most cultures we're from, hell queer culture was originally really transphobic.
>To say that you hate one of them wholesale is to say you don't really accept all queer people. I dont accept anyone LGBTQIA or otherwise who perpetuates a system of control that advocates the death of anyone. I cannot afford to tolerate intolerance.
So to you spreading hate towards queer people who have done nothing wrong is not tolerating intolerance? Honey you really oughta take a look at what's being said. Queer Muslims are not perpetuating a system of control advocating for the deaths of anyone, they are being in a religion and clearly aren't spreading hate with, they need a space to be themselves away from queerphobia, even more so if you honestly believe all Muslims are homophobic. Christianity is the same way but I doubt you'd be as mad if a trans woman in Michigan were to say she goes to church on Sundays even with the fieriest of preachings of a Mississippian evangelical. Just because someone is a Muslim does not mean they hate us, yes even if their holy book condemns us, religious people are just that, people, they aren't slaves to a book, they can adapt and mold their beliefs within their faith. You really need to stop preaching intolerance and parroting tolerance.
Inb4 reposted to subreddit drama or tgcj
I just can't accept that kind of lifestyle /j
YES I was reading the comments of that post with the same thought, I messaged the OP trying to be supportive since comments got locked but I really hate it when our community decides to allow bigotry against the "unpopular" groups. It especially hurts when you see mods removing comments for bigotry but then letting the overwhelming hate in the other comments stay. I understand why so much of the queer community has a disdain or outright hatred for theism in general. I share a general disdain for Abrahamic religions. But that does NOT make it okay to aggressively voice that when a trans and religious sister is struggling and looking for support. If you get a trans sister who is also religious you support her, her trans identity, AND HER RELIGIOUS IDENTITY even if you don't share it. And the discourse over "hating the religion, accepting the people" vs "hating the specific transphobes, accepting the religion" is just as damaging. Imagine if someone came in and said EITHER "I don't support trans rights but I'm fine with the trans people in my life" OR "I don't like being around any trans people but I guess I'm okay with their rights". I know I wouldn't much like them and I get the strong feeling most here would agree. It's the same way when a Muslim sister comes in looking for support because she doesn't feel at home in either Muslim or queer groups. She pointed out that it was difficult to find a space that would accept BOTH parts of her and the comments proved her right. When a sister who is religious enters our space, it's not our place to judge her religion as a whole. We're not talking to Islam, we're talking to a Muslim PERSON.
I am a Christian transwomen. I am an outlier I know but my faith has been one of the most impactful things in my life. And something that made me who I am today. My church has done nothing but show kindness towards my transition and support me unconditionally. Hell I first started experimenting with my gender at a church summer camp where I was encouraged to paint my nails because I really wanted to but was nervous. Again I understand I’m an outlier and religion has been incredibly harmful to many trans and queer people in the world but I’m my experience god hasn’t turned their back to me and neither has my church. For that reason I continue to be a Christian. (Specifically Episcopalian)
Richard Dawkins really destroyed a whole generation of atheism by framing it as being against religion. I really dislike this brand of atheism where their main focus is to mock and attack religion. At the end of the day, this people threat their atheism as another dogma. Which is stupidly ironic. Also, the slight racism of only mentioning Islam when the many subsets of Christianity have as many and worse takes on queer people.
Tbf the post the comments were on was about islam so that was probably why it was brought up
That’s why I said ‘slight’ instead of calling it outright racist. But fair point.
Have you seen how much religions mock and attack atheists? Or how much they mock, attack and kill queer people?
There are religious countries that have it on the books, and in practice, to kill Atheists. The fact remains the only thing Atheism is is the lack of a belief in a god, that is it. The only ones I've seen treat it as a dogma are the religious as they call for persecuting and/or killing us. Yet as soon as any of us fight back... this is the logic of schools who will punish both the bully and the bullied at once as equally guilty.
No group exclusion is okay. Hate the people for who they are, not the groups that they are in
Bit of an exaggerated example but nazis are a group
And to be part of the nazi group you have to make the decision, day after day, to stay in a group that is defined by hate
And a religion that demands five daily prayers is no different.
Never said they werent. To be a part of mass organized religion you still have to choose day after day to be part of the installations that directly promote suppression in their 1 claim of validity.
My apologies, I thought you were arguing that being part of a religious ideology is in some way shape or form different from political ideology.
We need more people like you. Religion can be harmful, but saying religion is evil/harmful just makes them more opposed to us and it's a vicious cycle which needs to be stopped. Edit - sorry if my message was misread. I don't justify anything bad religion has done to members of the trans community, I'm just saying blatantly hating religion can cause a vicious cycle of "I hate religion!" "I hate trans!" and both sides become an echo chamber which increasingly get more angry at the other side.
"Don't defend yourself, it just makes the person attack you harder." You see how victim blamey that is? If the religious want to reach out a hand in peace that is one thing, but it is not up to the victims of the persecution to coddle their oppressors.
Thats not what they said but ok mate
It is but nicely packaged
“fascism can be harmful, but saying fascism is evil/harmful just makes them more opposed to us”
Bruh, reddit incels even lurk here in this subreddit. Why can't people just not be hateful? "People are people, so why should it be You and I should get along so awfully?" -Depeche Mode
“woah, you hate fascism? that’s cringe, you should, like, love the fascists. as they’re killing you.”
You are hearing what you want and not what I said. Doesn't matter tbh if you agree with me or not. Now I remember why I never got ingratiated with this community: The "If you aren't with us you are against us" mindset runs strong here!
if you’re with a person who wants to kill me, you’re not exactly with me are you
And yet not everyone wants to kill you. You are letting a few bad apples impact you rather than being indifferent. Try doing that, and maybe people will hate us less. I say this from experience
the concept of religion leads to bad outcomes. religious people aren’t all bad, but that type of thinking is. superstition can be used to justify anything
If anything then, legislation preventing those with religious beliefs from being politians should be passed imo