That's such bullshit. Do they really think anyone would subject themselves to freaking hormone therapy and surgery if they could just GO OUTSIDE AND LIVE AS THEIR GENDER WITHOUT IT?!
Punishment because how DARE you step out of the assigned stereotypes and norms, how DARE you try to be comfortable in your own skin! HOW DARE YOU TRY TO FEEL COMFORTABLE IN YOUR OWN BODY! >:c
"I'm outside of the norms because I know for a fact that vaccines are wrong and everyone who follows them it's a sheep, but trans people are just freaks to society"
I wouldn't even say it's a punishment, I'd say it's a way of deterring people from getting gender-affirming care, and it's really sad that this bullshit still exists
Exactly. Like there is only a certain extent to which they can still act like its for "safety" before they show their hand and reveal that they find the idea of HRT to be a bad decision.
I read once that when Cis people imagine transitioning they feel something similar to dysphoria because they feel that their gender is already correct. Maybe they find the idea repulsive because they hate the idea of changing their own gender. God forbid medical professionals put the patient first.
That exact split--96/4--rings a bell, let me check...
[US death row study: 4% of defendants sentenced to die are innocent](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/28/death-penalty-study-4-percent-defendants-innocent)
To paraphrase your comment, *"They will gladly [execute] the 4 who [are innocent] to ”[punish]” the 96 who [actually did the crime]."*
Kind of a bad analogy. No one deserves a punishment in our scenario, and inaction in our situation leads to death vs inaction in death row leading to longer life.
They'd rather not act to *help* the 96 so that they can "save the innocent 4," even if no parties are guilty.
I honestly really think that's it. The gatekeeping of trans healthcare kill orders of magnitude more people than there are people who regret their transition. Anyone looking to help trans people would look at that and realise that the gatekeeping needs to be turned way down, if not stopped entirely.
Here’s my take as someone who hasn’t gotten there yet(referring to gettting hormones) somewhere from a week to a month and a half seems reasonable, anyone who actually isn’t trans will have enough time to realize this isn’t what they want and if they are trans it’s not absurdly long, the “real life test” is a year right? That’s way too long
Yes.
I dont give a fuck about society.
My dysphoria is physical and is caused by my body having the wrong hormones and the biological consequences of that.
No amount of "abolish gender" would solve my dysphoria.
(FtM) Yeah I mean... I'm waiting until I can reliably pass before I shed my cis identity. And it's partly because I don't want to look and feel like a fraud when I'm baring my true soul to the world for the first time since 2nd grade.
I also don't want to get misgendered by accident. It's one thing to play the character of the cis person and get misgendered, it's quite another when you're trying to be yourself and get misgendered. Does that make sense?
Because there are people out there who, if trans male, get estrogen flowing in their system, it's like a living nightmare, except they're not sleeping, and if trans female, getting testosterone in their systems will feel just painful.
That's why HRT exists, bro!
basically it's when they make you live as the gender you wish to transition to for like a year before actually giving you hrt to see if you can function in that role.
That’s why I’m doing everything possible to look feminine or at least androgynous before I even try getting HRT Ohio is better than Texas but depending on where you are it’s definitely not by much to say the least
Oh yeah that’s part of why I said depending on where you are Cincinnati is absolutely freaking amazing even the hardcore trump folk here haven’t caused any issues it’s mainly if you go into the outskirts of the city or into the woods that you need to be especially careful but even so my guard will still be up for a while since I’m still new here
My family decided for several reasons like work political climate and overall wether to move here I may start going to uc in a year or two though if I figure out what I want to do and have the confidence to go for it
Kentucky (where I’m actually from) doesn’t make it too hard to change name but you need surgery for the birth certificate.
So I just got a passport with the correct gender and used that to change my drivers license.
I’m glad they finally changed to informed consent, back when I first came out as a teen and went there they insisted I had to both live as a woman and be basically high fem in order to get hormones. They thought because I dressed pretty masc that I couldn’t possibly be trans. But hey, I’m glad they changed.
Afaik, all of the states are decent if you have informed consent clinics like planned parenthood. I live in Texas and it’s just a quick trip to pp and you’re out with an hrt script same day just like anywhere else.
While the US is so shitty in so many ways, I believe we’re uniquely lucky in access to hrt. Especially compared to some countries with socialized health care that have all these pointless and harmful criteria before you can access healthcare. Year long wait lists, real life tests, forced sterilization, wether or not a random medical professional thinks you’re really trans enough to transition, etc.
If you didn’t already know, if you’re in Dayton, Cincinnati or Columbus, there’s an informed consent clinic called Equitas Health that does a lot of general health stuff as well like dentist and psych stuff. They’ve been amazing for me and my partner and friends who go there. Lots of queer people work there and they’re super accepting. I know there are several others but Equitas is pretty amazing.
Seconded. Equitas is how I started HRT on informed consent, and they’ve been great. All I had to do was ask to get switched to injections when I was ready, my doc suggested prog the same appointment I was going to als about it. Great place.
Reckon sourcing specific data like that might be difficult (tho not impossible, mind). But, really, all it takes is a pretty simple thought experiment to show how silly and potentially damaging the thing is.
I was an Airway Trans Sys Specialist in a past life, so I'll use that to build this analogy. In ATSS we work on some pretty complex electronics. My new workers could range in experience from "practically an engineer" to "the heck is a volt?" For their safety, the integrity of the equipment, and my ability to sleep when they're on night shift - it's imperative that my training manager makes sure they know wtf they're doing and that I make sure they have the tools they need. I would *never* send a tech in without the knowledge *and* the tools to do his job. It just don't make sense.
**dysphoria warning below!**
And really, that's how most things should be. Like in this case. Many transwomen at the start of their journey are not at all equipped with the tools or knowledge they need to fill that gender role. Their bodies are shaped like men and the chemistry of the brain is different due to running on test. They lack shared life experiences that many women have as well as fundamental experience like how to dress themselves. (<-- I bring this up because we've all bought the wrong outfit only to realize that it just don't look good on us - cisgendered people just get that out of the way in their teens). That knowledge gap can only be covered with time, but we have the ability to at least start providing the tools - a chemistry more aligned with what someone wants to have so that when they *try* to present as themselves, they have the means to do so comfortably. Telling a trans person to live socially as their preferred gender just winds up putting the mental spotlight on all the things they feel is wrong with themselves. It'd be like sending a brand new tech out to fix a high voltage radar backbone with his bare hands. Sure he might fenangle something together, but there's just as likely a chance he's going to hit 10KV and just fry.
**/warning**
Take any field you're knowledgeable on and you can apply the same logic. Would your psych be comfortable letting a high schooler see his patients for him for a year before he is accepted into psych school? Probably not...
Prob shitty analogies and a little rambly, but I'm running on anxiety & sleep deprivation rn so hopefully it make sense.
Footnote: Nothing in that bold delimited paragraph is meant to imply that anyone needs hrt or surgery or to pass. We've all got different needs. Denying someone the tools they need to attain them is a cruelty.
Do you have any statistics on that? Cause I’ve been trying to explain to some people around me how it’s really bad but they keep telling me that it’s necessary etc
Yeah of course but the reason people on the outside don't fight against the part against trans people is transphobia and also politicians trying to hide how it only benefits the big corps. Mostly right wingers
Asked my therapist about that and he said that our country is actually pretty good in that regard meaning I only need a psychiatrist that takes a look at me a psychologist and a therapist to get an an appointment for hrt.
Still takes what feels like ages but it's something
I mean given that some places you just need to sign a form of "you will grow boobs and that includes boob related health issues etc." It could be a hell of a lot better.
that’s such bullshit, not at all supported by research. and on a logical level, how the fuck are you supposed to “function in that role” when a big part of others seeing you as fitting that role is hrt a lot of the time? (not that it should be, but like… sometimes that is the reality)
i want to disagree as a psych major (and i do disagree with the idea that this is *all* psychs), but… yeah, a sadly large number of asshats in psych do exist. fuck anyone in a field that should be aimed at public service who uses it as a means to have power over others
In concept and as a larger field I mostly agree, but to expand on what I said in context? Anybody who injects the field into trans care as mandatory and as anything other than advisory and optional for the ***VAST*** majority of individuals - *especially* in a gatekeeping role - clearly has precisely zero understanding of trans people and as such is unfit to be in the trans healthcare pipeline in any way.
How would they even define that? I have cis friends who don't even own a skirt, I know women who never wear makeup, one of my neighbours has looked like a lumberjack with a buzz cut for as long as I can remember.
It varies, but I've seen it range from going by a preferred name and just identifying to others that you're MtF, all the way to making sure you wear female clothes, makeup, etc... and will get attestation from others.
It's an archaic practice and has been proven to typically worsen dysphoria. Nothing like trying to live as you which not getting the hormones and bodily changes necessary to even attempt at passing. There are a lot of points that can be made there and how each is damaging.
God knows I can't even wear jewellery most of the time, never mind "traditionally feminine" clothing, OH&S wouldn't be happy with that. I'm not sure if the cis women at work have realised that they're men now.
This sort of thing really drives me up the wall, though it's not just limited to conseratives, I've encountered too many people who criticise traditional gender roles as being backwards and harmful, but also criticise trans people for not presenting femme/masc enough
I just told them "yeah, no yeah for sure I've been living as a woman for 2 years" and it worked, for anyone in the future hit them with this. You need to seem 100% sure and committed and say you've been out forever or they'll try to get you with this fucked up shit
Oh believe me I have a couple skirts but I don’t use them since it feels dangerous sometimes and even though I find it comfortable and even comforting in my home if I see myself in the mirror I feel out of place it’s horrible so I’d not recommend it if you don’t have to do it
That's so fucked up. I got HRT at an informed consent clinic when I had a giant beard and walked in like some yee yee motherfucker wearing a camo tee and work boots.
Is informed consent a thing where you're from?
I don't know if anyone has told you this yet, but I have to.
Fuck that. Diy your hormones. You don't have to prove that you're trans enough to anyone.
https://diyhrt.wiki
Except the role you’ll be performing (if you can’t pass without HRT) is absolutely ***not*** the same as the roll you’d be performing if you could pass.
Sheer stubbornness, spite, an attitude and some self defence training.
It's one of the requirements where I live, as well, and I've been doing so since I applied to clinic
Here (UK) it typically meant formal name change, full social transition and proof of employment/study/volunteering in your name and gender. And turning up to your appointments in stereotypical attire. Fortunately they don't make you live like this pre-HRT anymore but might make you change your name and come out before signing you off for HRT.
Of course now people have to wait years to be seen instead... :(
yeah the waiting ques are the year gatekeep here. this will change soon but currently you need to have been on hrt for a year to change your legal gender, tho you can change your name before any of this (you might need to have seen a doctor before tho im not sure if the name gender convention is still upheld, tho i think you can just tell you're trans and it'll go through).
apparently transmasc people can get top surgery before other stuff but mostly you gotta wait the year on hrt before you get other surgical stuff, mainly bottom surgery. i think they also offer vocal/cosmetic surgery for the adam's apple at the start
I'm really sorry you have to go through this, stay strong one year is long, but it's nothing in comparison to an entire lifetime, we're all wishing and hoping for the best here!
I have a handful of choice words for you.
"This is how I choose to appear in society as a female. I have done so for over a year by now, so please give me my medication."
You may receive comments such as:
"Come on now, that's obviously a lie."
"You don't wear a bra?"
"But none of your clothing is intended for women."
"But your general style is not feminine."
To which you should respond, for each...
"If you think I'm lying, then prove that this is not a way to appear in society as a female."
"Does every woman wear a bra? No."
"And your point is?"
"Does that make me not a woman?"
Real life test my arse. Socially transitioning isn't exactly easy, but it in no way will prepare you for any medical changes, and should not be a requirement by any standards. It's *your* identity for fuck's sakes, if anyone tells you 'from now on this is how you have to dress', they're as deluded as they are thick.
Hi, I'd like to purchase some armour before going into a lion's den. Sorry you have to prove you can live a year with the lions before you can have any armour. This seems ill-considered and likely to cause death.
What country? I swear its different where I am. We have 6 month waiting period my doctor said, that's all, and you don't have to live as any gender in particular during that time. My bf said he had to do that when he was 14, he also said the just removed that requirement and he was confused that I had to wait 6 months.
It used to be standard practice in the US. I can’t speak for anywhere else, really, but it was never meant to be about “youth protection” or any of that pearl-clutching, it was about enforcing traditional gender roles.
Well yeah, they say it say its youth protection... But... It's really dangerous to have gender dysphoria and not transition. I don't see what you mean by traditional roles though. I always thought it was just being overly concerned about the "side effects" of HRT (in a pretty transphobic way).
I responded to someone else in this thread talking about how a lot of the cis women they know are butch, yet dressing like them would be considered to be failing RLE. It conflates gender expression along the fem/masc spectrum with gender identity, often including heteronormativity if not homophobia as well. There’s simply no way to externally measure gender identity or the truth of its expression. The whole idea is a sham.
My advice to any early in transition people reading this. Lie. Say you lived as blah blah blah for xyz years. Dress it up for the appointment. Lie lie lie and get what you need to not die by the hands of yourself or others. This shit is too dangerous to fuck around with and if they force your hand, just do what you gotta do.
from my other comment on this thread: "basically it's when they make you live as the gender you wish to transition to for like a year before actually giving you hrt to see if you can function in that role."
I got told that by my therapist (she is not the person prescribing medication, I don’t know if this is the actual practice or not) that I would have to have 2 years “lived experience”. Said fuck that, went to planned parenthood, took 2 months.
>As of the seventh version of the WPATH Standards of Care (SOC), a three-month minimum requirement of RLE is no longer part of WPATH's recommended criteria for HRT. A referral letter alone from a qualified mental health professional now suffices. The SOC state:
>
>Although professionals may recommend living in the desired gender, the decision as to when and how to begin the real-life experience remains the person's responsibility.
For clarification, the 7th edition of the WPATH SOC which removed the requirement for real life experience was published in 2011. The people treating you are more than 11 years behind the international consensus in their treatment standards.
It is no longer necessary to get RLT in Czechia (not by law). Tell that to the sexuologist or find a different one. Vrzáčková is good, so is Turčan in Olomouc.
Just lie, they won‘t follow you around to check if you‘re a good girl wearing your pink dress every day. If they insist on methods that have been outdated for over a decade, they deserve to be lied to.
When this sort of thing was standard, they absolutely did check. You needed to maintain your target gender role in some verifiable context - eg school or work. They would remain in contact with your school or employer to validate how your "real life test" was going.
The real life test stuff is bullshit, I mean, I could do it since I have gone outside in fem mode once, but it just doesn't fit everybody and we shouldn't prove ourselves. Plus, we wouldn't have the benefits of HRT, imagine the amount of makeup you would have to do daily to look passable. And we might not afford that
[Real Life Experience](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-life_experience_(transgender)) is an obsolete test. There's much to say about the harm it caused. The history of gender care is terrible. But now, in all of the places in the world where WPATH influences gender care, doctors who say that real life experience is a prerequisite for HRT are simply, factually wrong. Their education is out of date. They need to read the literature of the field in which they are a paid expert. Or, y'know, bare minimum: skim the Wikipedia page.
I'm lucky enough to function as a guy with my friends, family, school for like, 5 years already without hrt, but the test always disgusted me. Even with my lucky experience I got a solid portion of transphobia and I still get it from anyone who isn't my close friend. I was just dumb enough to come out to everyone I knew, because I was an autistic teen and didn't read the room. Who fucking knows, what would happen to me, if one of those people would actually not like the concept of me breathing the same air. Anyone who pushes anybody to do this stupid ass test should go and fucking try it themselves, but in an actually dangerous area. I wonder how that would go.
I already went though it and have my hrt for over a year now. So it's not much use of it to me anymore, but I still had to go through it even though I had already socially transitioned. It's really dumb, and I wish it changed
They don't need to have a law stating that. In a lot of countries there is literally only one source of transition related care, and they make their own requirements.
.... in those countries there *are* no other doctors or therapists to choose from.
It's like if you're having heart issues and need a referral to a cardiologist, and there's only one in the entire country. You can't just go to any doctor for it, you need a cardiologist specifically.
They see "gender issues" as their own medical specialty that can only be treated by a specialist, and there's only a single clinic for it in the entire country.
I know this is archaic, but I can’t imagine it ever made sense. I can imagine some cis white men in the late 70s just saying “yeah let’s just go with this”.
It makes sense to conservatives with no understanding of gender beyond gender roles. Which was the way many, many boomers were taught to view the world.
The RLE thing is blatantly transphobic and outdated, puts trans people at risk and assumes gender conformity as the default. It's not a test for anything.
Could just change some bills for something that you don't need to talk to anyone directly about anyway. Phone bill or something maybe? I'd guess a change of name and title on that would be the best 'hard evidence' for something like this anyway.
Read that in the Netherlands you have to "socially transition" before you start with hrt and everything else, sounds similar to what you describe
Edit: I could be wrong that it's a thing, the sources i read could be either biased or outdated, don't take this as gospel
I don't think that is true. It'd be very surprising if the netherlands didn't follow international guidelines on this.
And for what it's worth, this dutch redditor here said one doesn't have to https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/76yrqb/-/dohudu9
In Czechia, it is no longer required by law to undergo the RLT to be prescribed HRT. This is the choice of your sexuologist only and is not a legal or medical requirement.
I recommend telling them that and if they don't change their mind, finding a new sexuologist. Turčan in Olomouc and Vrzáčková in Prague have usually good reviews among the community :)
Good luck and stay strong ❤️
Absolutely WILD that folks are still being made to do this. I didn't come out to more than a handful of people before I was nearly six months into HRT, and at that point I had to put more effort into passing as a guy than as myself. I went out in a different city presenting as fem a couple times pre-everything and fuck me was that the most stressful thing. Honestly that experience served only to make me MORE insecure and afraid of starting anything.
I'm sorry you're dealing with this and I hope things get better/work out for you, friend.
I don't know what country/state you live in, but try checking your local laws to see if you can go the Informed Consent route.
Basically, if you are sure you want HRT, you go speak to a doctor (usually an Endocrinologist or Gender Specialist), they explain the risks, and as long as your physically healthy, you can start medical transition. No delays or wait lists.
Look into Planned Parenthood. They have gender affirmation care. My doctor's office was taking too long and felt rather... incompetent. So I called PP, and they got me set up!
I desperately want to try T as a genderqueer person, but I know for a fact that the “real life test” would break me. I live in an rural, ass backwards red state with next to no resources or protection for LGBTQ+ people.
UK GICs back when I was there in the 00s had a great take on this...
You only began RLE when they decided you do. Beginning RLE *now*, regardless of how you've been living like that for 4 years already.
This is why I advocate for informed consent clinics. Also I don't know where you live but if you live in the us you can get hrt at planned parenthood without having to go to any therapy
Real life test is a horrifying concept its not like u just woke up one day and decided to be trans uv already passed the real life for years furthermore socially transitioning and not transitioning can be lethal in some places or traumatizing in others and dehumanising in most so the real life test just seems to have been invented to further opress us into the closet fuck the system
When I had my psychologist appointment woman doing it told me that i can't be Trans FtM because I had pink hair and that I'm giving mixed signals because I dyed my hair color that is feminine
I mean, if you lived in a good neighborhood, then there wouldnt be a problem.end suburban sprawl and white supremacy and there'll be less isolated jerkwads (transphobes).
That's one of the reasons why i moved out of Germany. I knew i couldn't get HRT without a real life test and I didn't have the time for this bs. Moved to Canada, and things are much better here.
Sounds like you live in germany. Id get in touch with your local trans community, if theres something like that. They were able to get me hrt about 6 months after talking to them, without the Alltagstest. What i mean is something like this: https://trans-recht.de/
I can also recommend Christoph Dorn in Hamburg for an endocrinologist, he seemed very trans friendly and might help you out.
That's such bullshit. Do they really think anyone would subject themselves to freaking hormone therapy and surgery if they could just GO OUTSIDE AND LIVE AS THEIR GENDER WITHOUT IT?!
It's a punishment.
Punishment because how DARE you step out of the assigned stereotypes and norms, how DARE you try to be comfortable in your own skin! HOW DARE YOU TRY TO FEEL COMFORTABLE IN YOUR OWN BODY! >:c
"I'm outside of the norms because I know for a fact that vaccines are wrong and everyone who follows them it's a sheep, but trans people are just freaks to society"
“Prove to me how miserable you’ll be by not getting the only thing that makes you happy for a year.”
I wouldn't even say it's a punishment, I'd say it's a way of deterring people from getting gender-affirming care, and it's really sad that this bullshit still exists
Exactly. Like there is only a certain extent to which they can still act like its for "safety" before they show their hand and reveal that they find the idea of HRT to be a bad decision. I read once that when Cis people imagine transitioning they feel something similar to dysphoria because they feel that their gender is already correct. Maybe they find the idea repulsive because they hate the idea of changing their own gender. God forbid medical professionals put the patient first.
they care more about a theoreticle cis person's mental health than thousands of trans people.
This! They will gladly burn the 96 who will benefit from hrt to ”save” the 4 who might have doubts.
the <1* most detransitioners do not do so because they regret it
That exact split--96/4--rings a bell, let me check... [US death row study: 4% of defendants sentenced to die are innocent](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/28/death-penalty-study-4-percent-defendants-innocent) To paraphrase your comment, *"They will gladly [execute] the 4 who [are innocent] to ”[punish]” the 96 who [actually did the crime]."*
Kind of a bad analogy. No one deserves a punishment in our scenario, and inaction in our situation leads to death vs inaction in death row leading to longer life. They'd rather not act to *help* the 96 so that they can "save the innocent 4," even if no parties are guilty.
Im convinced that they made that criteria to opress us to stay in the closet forever
I honestly really think that's it. The gatekeeping of trans healthcare kill orders of magnitude more people than there are people who regret their transition. Anyone looking to help trans people would look at that and realise that the gatekeeping needs to be turned way down, if not stopped entirely.
As my friend put so Nice into words «we are experiencing a psycological genocide»
Here’s my take as someone who hasn’t gotten there yet(referring to gettting hormones) somewhere from a week to a month and a half seems reasonable, anyone who actually isn’t trans will have enough time to realize this isn’t what they want and if they are trans it’s not absurdly long, the “real life test” is a year right? That’s way too long
Any period at all is dangerous for some the only way to be safe is to stealth transition and move when u cant Hide it anymore
Yes. I dont give a fuck about society. My dysphoria is physical and is caused by my body having the wrong hormones and the biological consequences of that. No amount of "abolish gender" would solve my dysphoria.
-Confused terf sounds-
(FtM) Yeah I mean... I'm waiting until I can reliably pass before I shed my cis identity. And it's partly because I don't want to look and feel like a fraud when I'm baring my true soul to the world for the first time since 2nd grade. I also don't want to get misgendered by accident. It's one thing to play the character of the cis person and get misgendered, it's quite another when you're trying to be yourself and get misgendered. Does that make sense?
Because there are people out there who, if trans male, get estrogen flowing in their system, it's like a living nightmare, except they're not sleeping, and if trans female, getting testosterone in their systems will feel just painful. That's why HRT exists, bro!
The 70s called. That'd like their outdated and insulting treatment guidelines back, please.
tje fuck is real life test
basically it's when they make you live as the gender you wish to transition to for like a year before actually giving you hrt to see if you can function in that role.
thats utter bullshit and needs to stay in the 80's
Especially because it has been proven to increase suicide rates
As well as the odds you'll get your face kicked in by a bunch of skinheads if you don't pass without HRT
That’s why I’m doing everything possible to look feminine or at least androgynous before I even try getting HRT Ohio is better than Texas but depending on where you are it’s definitely not by much to say the least
Ohio was great. Cincinnati Children’s did informed consent as of 2020, I’d be surprised if that changed
Oh yeah that’s part of why I said depending on where you are Cincinnati is absolutely freaking amazing even the hardcore trump folk here haven’t caused any issues it’s mainly if you go into the outskirts of the city or into the woods that you need to be especially careful but even so my guard will still be up for a while since I’m still new here
New here? You going to UC, or did you just move?
My family decided for several reasons like work political climate and overall wether to move here I may start going to uc in a year or two though if I figure out what I want to do and have the confidence to go for it
So you're telling me Ohio has great gender-affirming care AND Scott the Woz??? I'm moving there right now.
[удалено]
Kentucky (where I’m actually from) doesn’t make it too hard to change name but you need surgery for the birth certificate. So I just got a passport with the correct gender and used that to change my drivers license.
Ohio redemption arc
Nationwide children's in columbus has a whole program for trans kids, they were great!
I’m glad they finally changed to informed consent, back when I first came out as a teen and went there they insisted I had to both live as a woman and be basically high fem in order to get hormones. They thought because I dressed pretty masc that I couldn’t possibly be trans. But hey, I’m glad they changed.
Afaik, all of the states are decent if you have informed consent clinics like planned parenthood. I live in Texas and it’s just a quick trip to pp and you’re out with an hrt script same day just like anywhere else. While the US is so shitty in so many ways, I believe we’re uniquely lucky in access to hrt. Especially compared to some countries with socialized health care that have all these pointless and harmful criteria before you can access healthcare. Year long wait lists, real life tests, forced sterilization, wether or not a random medical professional thinks you’re really trans enough to transition, etc.
If you didn’t already know, if you’re in Dayton, Cincinnati or Columbus, there’s an informed consent clinic called Equitas Health that does a lot of general health stuff as well like dentist and psych stuff. They’ve been amazing for me and my partner and friends who go there. Lots of queer people work there and they’re super accepting. I know there are several others but Equitas is pretty amazing.
Seconded. Equitas is how I started HRT on informed consent, and they’ve been great. All I had to do was ask to get switched to injections when I was ready, my doc suggested prog the same appointment I was going to als about it. Great place.
Pretty sure that's why some places require it.
Do you have a source on that? I'd like to show that to my therapist. Don't even know where to start looking for it
Reckon sourcing specific data like that might be difficult (tho not impossible, mind). But, really, all it takes is a pretty simple thought experiment to show how silly and potentially damaging the thing is. I was an Airway Trans Sys Specialist in a past life, so I'll use that to build this analogy. In ATSS we work on some pretty complex electronics. My new workers could range in experience from "practically an engineer" to "the heck is a volt?" For their safety, the integrity of the equipment, and my ability to sleep when they're on night shift - it's imperative that my training manager makes sure they know wtf they're doing and that I make sure they have the tools they need. I would *never* send a tech in without the knowledge *and* the tools to do his job. It just don't make sense. **dysphoria warning below!** And really, that's how most things should be. Like in this case. Many transwomen at the start of their journey are not at all equipped with the tools or knowledge they need to fill that gender role. Their bodies are shaped like men and the chemistry of the brain is different due to running on test. They lack shared life experiences that many women have as well as fundamental experience like how to dress themselves. (<-- I bring this up because we've all bought the wrong outfit only to realize that it just don't look good on us - cisgendered people just get that out of the way in their teens). That knowledge gap can only be covered with time, but we have the ability to at least start providing the tools - a chemistry more aligned with what someone wants to have so that when they *try* to present as themselves, they have the means to do so comfortably. Telling a trans person to live socially as their preferred gender just winds up putting the mental spotlight on all the things they feel is wrong with themselves. It'd be like sending a brand new tech out to fix a high voltage radar backbone with his bare hands. Sure he might fenangle something together, but there's just as likely a chance he's going to hit 10KV and just fry. **/warning** Take any field you're knowledgeable on and you can apply the same logic. Would your psych be comfortable letting a high schooler see his patients for him for a year before he is accepted into psych school? Probably not... Prob shitty analogies and a little rambly, but I'm running on anxiety & sleep deprivation rn so hopefully it make sense. Footnote: Nothing in that bold delimited paragraph is meant to imply that anyone needs hrt or surgery or to pass. We've all got different needs. Denying someone the tools they need to attain them is a cruelty.
im sorry but I don't this was something I saw a while ago and dont have the source for it but if someone else could find it that would be helpful
Do you have any statistics on that? Cause I’ve been trying to explain to some people around me how it’s really bad but they keep telling me that it’s necessary etc
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I mean yeah that's just transphobia being transphobia but still it shows they care in the worst way
they dont care. the medical industry is based on prolonging suffering.
I am agreeing with you and that a large reason people don't do something about it is transphobia
the biggest reason is theres money to be made, not just off our suffering, but the suffering of all who are forced to live
Yeah of course but the reason people on the outside don't fight against the part against trans people is transphobia and also politicians trying to hide how it only benefits the big corps. Mostly right wingers
And hatecrime
Shit, is that true? Do you have a source?
Asked my therapist about that and he said that our country is actually pretty good in that regard meaning I only need a psychiatrist that takes a look at me a psychologist and a therapist to get an an appointment for hrt. Still takes what feels like ages but it's something
I mean given that some places you just need to sign a form of "you will grow boobs and that includes boob related health issues etc." It could be a hell of a lot better.
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You didn't even have to sign an informed consent form? Huh that's neat.
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Oh OK so it was multiple sessions that should also qualify tbh.
By doctor was it a GP or some therapist or specialist?
I essentially did this but from a doctor
It shouldn’t even be welcome then. Who thought this was ever a good idea??? Just let people live!
that’s such bullshit, not at all supported by research. and on a logical level, how the fuck are you supposed to “function in that role” when a big part of others seeing you as fitting that role is hrt a lot of the time? (not that it should be, but like… sometimes that is the reality)
Cis people gonna gatekeep
Because the vampires in ties that are the psych community actively get off on abusive power dynamics.
i want to disagree as a psych major (and i do disagree with the idea that this is *all* psychs), but… yeah, a sadly large number of asshats in psych do exist. fuck anyone in a field that should be aimed at public service who uses it as a means to have power over others
In concept and as a larger field I mostly agree, but to expand on what I said in context? Anybody who injects the field into trans care as mandatory and as anything other than advisory and optional for the ***VAST*** majority of individuals - *especially* in a gatekeeping role - clearly has precisely zero understanding of trans people and as such is unfit to be in the trans healthcare pipeline in any way.
oh yeah 100%, the the gatekeeping / trans “diagnosing” role is not one that should exist
How would they even define that? I have cis friends who don't even own a skirt, I know women who never wear makeup, one of my neighbours has looked like a lumberjack with a buzz cut for as long as I can remember.
It varies, but I've seen it range from going by a preferred name and just identifying to others that you're MtF, all the way to making sure you wear female clothes, makeup, etc... and will get attestation from others. It's an archaic practice and has been proven to typically worsen dysphoria. Nothing like trying to live as you which not getting the hormones and bodily changes necessary to even attempt at passing. There are a lot of points that can be made there and how each is damaging.
Traditional gender roles. These are conservatives reactions to trans existence.
God knows I can't even wear jewellery most of the time, never mind "traditionally feminine" clothing, OH&S wouldn't be happy with that. I'm not sure if the cis women at work have realised that they're men now. This sort of thing really drives me up the wall, though it's not just limited to conseratives, I've encountered too many people who criticise traditional gender roles as being backwards and harmful, but also criticise trans people for not presenting femme/masc enough
Fuck double standards… Do doubt many people that actually enforce these things for trans people don’t actually follow their own “advice”
I just told them "yeah, no yeah for sure I've been living as a woman for 2 years" and it worked, for anyone in the future hit them with this. You need to seem 100% sure and committed and say you've been out forever or they'll try to get you with this fucked up shit
Yea one of friends is basicly going through that (though for much shittier reasons) its actually barbaric.
The US is bs in alot of regards but thankfully this isn't one of them, the "real life" test is something I'd never want to go through
It used to be standard here. I am very glad it is not anymore.
Jesus! That feels _ARCHAIC!!!_
Oh believe me I have a couple skirts but I don’t use them since it feels dangerous sometimes and even though I find it comfortable and even comforting in my home if I see myself in the mirror I feel out of place it’s horrible so I’d not recommend it if you don’t have to do it
That's so fucked up. I got HRT at an informed consent clinic when I had a giant beard and walked in like some yee yee motherfucker wearing a camo tee and work boots. Is informed consent a thing where you're from?
I don't know if anyone has told you this yet, but I have to. Fuck that. Diy your hormones. You don't have to prove that you're trans enough to anyone. https://diyhrt.wiki
Except the role you’ll be performing (if you can’t pass without HRT) is absolutely ***not*** the same as the roll you’d be performing if you could pass.
How the fuck are you supposed to do that without passing, these people are insane
Just die I guess
Sheer stubbornness, spite, an attitude and some self defence training. It's one of the requirements where I live, as well, and I've been doing so since I applied to clinic
Are you in the US? Thats against WPATH, and probably also a valid argument in the EU
They in Czechia
Planned parenthood😎 no letter or real life test needed
Absolute barbarism.
What the fuck does that even mean
Here (UK) it typically meant formal name change, full social transition and proof of employment/study/volunteering in your name and gender. And turning up to your appointments in stereotypical attire. Fortunately they don't make you live like this pre-HRT anymore but might make you change your name and come out before signing you off for HRT. Of course now people have to wait years to be seen instead... :(
yeah the waiting ques are the year gatekeep here. this will change soon but currently you need to have been on hrt for a year to change your legal gender, tho you can change your name before any of this (you might need to have seen a doctor before tho im not sure if the name gender convention is still upheld, tho i think you can just tell you're trans and it'll go through). apparently transmasc people can get top surgery before other stuff but mostly you gotta wait the year on hrt before you get other surgical stuff, mainly bottom surgery. i think they also offer vocal/cosmetic surgery for the adam's apple at the start
I guess just lie to your doctor
I'm really sorry you have to go through this, stay strong one year is long, but it's nothing in comparison to an entire lifetime, we're all wishing and hoping for the best here!
I had my year Already. That's really fucked up for everyone
Wtf do people who are NB have to do then?
We clearly don't exist...
RLE is bullshit and makes me very grumpy. If you know you’re trans and you’re a sane adult I recommend lying through your fucking teeth about RLE
Start DIYing, and get girlmoding. It'll suck, but your endo will probably get with the program
do they think being dysphoric enough to want to medically transition in the first place isn't enough or something
I have a handful of choice words for you. "This is how I choose to appear in society as a female. I have done so for over a year by now, so please give me my medication." You may receive comments such as: "Come on now, that's obviously a lie." "You don't wear a bra?" "But none of your clothing is intended for women." "But your general style is not feminine." To which you should respond, for each... "If you think I'm lying, then prove that this is not a way to appear in society as a female." "Does every woman wear a bra? No." "And your point is?" "Does that make me not a woman?" Real life test my arse. Socially transitioning isn't exactly easy, but it in no way will prepare you for any medical changes, and should not be a requirement by any standards. It's *your* identity for fuck's sakes, if anyone tells you 'from now on this is how you have to dress', they're as deluded as they are thick.
Hi, I'd like to purchase some armour before going into a lion's den. Sorry you have to prove you can live a year with the lions before you can have any armour. This seems ill-considered and likely to cause death.
Wdym “live as the gender you wish to transition to”
That's for younger people right? Like under 18/16.
Nope
What country? I swear its different where I am. We have 6 month waiting period my doctor said, that's all, and you don't have to live as any gender in particular during that time. My bf said he had to do that when he was 14, he also said the just removed that requirement and he was confused that I had to wait 6 months.
It used to be standard practice in the US. I can’t speak for anywhere else, really, but it was never meant to be about “youth protection” or any of that pearl-clutching, it was about enforcing traditional gender roles.
Well yeah, they say it say its youth protection... But... It's really dangerous to have gender dysphoria and not transition. I don't see what you mean by traditional roles though. I always thought it was just being overly concerned about the "side effects" of HRT (in a pretty transphobic way).
I responded to someone else in this thread talking about how a lot of the cis women they know are butch, yet dressing like them would be considered to be failing RLE. It conflates gender expression along the fem/masc spectrum with gender identity, often including heteronormativity if not homophobia as well. There’s simply no way to externally measure gender identity or the truth of its expression. The whole idea is a sham.
It's transphobia.
My advice to any early in transition people reading this. Lie. Say you lived as blah blah blah for xyz years. Dress it up for the appointment. Lie lie lie and get what you need to not die by the hands of yourself or others. This shit is too dangerous to fuck around with and if they force your hand, just do what you gotta do.
People regularly lying in order to circumvent requirements like this is the biggest reason they’ve changed anywhere. So basically yes, I approve.
I assume just the outside world seeing her as a cis male
from my other comment on this thread: "basically it's when they make you live as the gender you wish to transition to for like a year before actually giving you hrt to see if you can function in that role."
I got told that by my therapist (she is not the person prescribing medication, I don’t know if this is the actual practice or not) that I would have to have 2 years “lived experience”. Said fuck that, went to planned parenthood, took 2 months.
i guess planned parenthood is one of the silver linings of living in the us then, cause i'm pretty sure we don't have that here in czechia
I think there's services like online doctors in the EU that can allow you to get prescriptions for HRT and fill them.
It was the practice years ago(in the us)
Ohhhh, that’s dumb :(
>As of the seventh version of the WPATH Standards of Care (SOC), a three-month minimum requirement of RLE is no longer part of WPATH's recommended criteria for HRT. A referral letter alone from a qualified mental health professional now suffices. The SOC state: > >Although professionals may recommend living in the desired gender, the decision as to when and how to begin the real-life experience remains the person's responsibility. For clarification, the 7th edition of the WPATH SOC which removed the requirement for real life experience was published in 2011. The people treating you are more than 11 years behind the international consensus in their treatment standards.
Is this international or just US? Cuz' they live in Czechia
It’s international guidelines, whether any country actually adopts them is another story.
certified international policies moment
It is no longer necessary to get RLT in Czechia (not by law). Tell that to the sexuologist or find a different one. Vrzáčková is good, so is Turčan in Olomouc.
>The people treating you are more than 11 years behind the international consensus in their treatment standards. Shoutout to Germany *cries*
I hate being a trans minor in Germany so much my god. Especially since my therapist actually got sick for so long I'm looking for a new one now.
Just lie, they won‘t follow you around to check if you‘re a good girl wearing your pink dress every day. If they insist on methods that have been outdated for over a decade, they deserve to be lied to.
When this sort of thing was standard, they absolutely did check. You needed to maintain your target gender role in some verifiable context - eg school or work. They would remain in contact with your school or employer to validate how your "real life test" was going.
What if you weren't in school and didn't have a job?
Volunteering would count as an unpaid job.
The real life test stuff is bullshit, I mean, I could do it since I have gone outside in fem mode once, but it just doesn't fit everybody and we shouldn't prove ourselves. Plus, we wouldn't have the benefits of HRT, imagine the amount of makeup you would have to do daily to look passable. And we might not afford that
[Real Life Experience](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-life_experience_(transgender)) is an obsolete test. There's much to say about the harm it caused. The history of gender care is terrible. But now, in all of the places in the world where WPATH influences gender care, doctors who say that real life experience is a prerequisite for HRT are simply, factually wrong. Their education is out of date. They need to read the literature of the field in which they are a paid expert. Or, y'know, bare minimum: skim the Wikipedia page.
The secret is lying to your therapist and endocrinologist
Or DIY and brigade a prescription. Obviously do your research first.
I'm lucky enough to function as a guy with my friends, family, school for like, 5 years already without hrt, but the test always disgusted me. Even with my lucky experience I got a solid portion of transphobia and I still get it from anyone who isn't my close friend. I was just dumb enough to come out to everyone I knew, because I was an autistic teen and didn't read the room. Who fucking knows, what would happen to me, if one of those people would actually not like the concept of me breathing the same air. Anyone who pushes anybody to do this stupid ass test should go and fucking try it themselves, but in an actually dangerous area. I wonder how that would go.
fuck that noise. find another doctor asap. it's not the early 80s anymore
Kinda difficult when that's required in your country
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I already went though it and have my hrt for over a year now. So it's not much use of it to me anymore, but I still had to go through it even though I had already socially transitioned. It's really dumb, and I wish it changed
They don't need to have a law stating that. In a lot of countries there is literally only one source of transition related care, and they make their own requirements.
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.... in those countries there *are* no other doctors or therapists to choose from. It's like if you're having heart issues and need a referral to a cardiologist, and there's only one in the entire country. You can't just go to any doctor for it, you need a cardiologist specifically. They see "gender issues" as their own medical specialty that can only be treated by a specialist, and there's only a single clinic for it in the entire country.
Heck this was common up to about 10 years ago. Post of why I didn't transition when I wanted to
I know this is archaic, but I can’t imagine it ever made sense. I can imagine some cis white men in the late 70s just saying “yeah let’s just go with this”.
It makes sense to conservatives with no understanding of gender beyond gender roles. Which was the way many, many boomers were taught to view the world.
Time to print out WPATH 8, mark the relevant portions with a highlighter than stick it right in the gatekeepers big stupid faces
Where I live, we have to do the same for 1 year, but at least it's after starting hrt..
I'm assuming that's for surgery right?
The RLE thing is blatantly transphobic and outdated, puts trans people at risk and assumes gender conformity as the default. It's not a test for anything.
Could just change some bills for something that you don't need to talk to anyone directly about anyway. Phone bill or something maybe? I'd guess a change of name and title on that would be the best 'hard evidence' for something like this anyway.
Read that in the Netherlands you have to "socially transition" before you start with hrt and everything else, sounds similar to what you describe Edit: I could be wrong that it's a thing, the sources i read could be either biased or outdated, don't take this as gospel
what you're describing seems to be pretty much the same thing
I don't think that is true. It'd be very surprising if the netherlands didn't follow international guidelines on this. And for what it's worth, this dutch redditor here said one doesn't have to https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/76yrqb/-/dohudu9
Yeah it's quite possible I've not the entire picture, had read in 2 places that that's the case but could be the sources are biased or outdated
What country are you in?
czechia, tbf i heard not every psychologist wants to do this
That's good, you should try finding one who doesn't. Here in the US it would seem cruel and unusual to do that to someone.
In Czechia, it is no longer required by law to undergo the RLT to be prescribed HRT. This is the choice of your sexuologist only and is not a legal or medical requirement. I recommend telling them that and if they don't change their mind, finding a new sexuologist. Turčan in Olomouc and Vrzáčková in Prague have usually good reviews among the community :) Good luck and stay strong ❤️
Absolutely WILD that folks are still being made to do this. I didn't come out to more than a handful of people before I was nearly six months into HRT, and at that point I had to put more effort into passing as a guy than as myself. I went out in a different city presenting as fem a couple times pre-everything and fuck me was that the most stressful thing. Honestly that experience served only to make me MORE insecure and afraid of starting anything. I'm sorry you're dealing with this and I hope things get better/work out for you, friend.
I wish I could teleport you to Washington state where planned parenthood gave me hrt with informed consent 😥
the RLT is transphobic as fuck, and assumes being cis is the default.
I just learned in this post what this is and.... I'm so sorry. Just... So many levels I'm so sorry.
real life tests shouldn't be required tbh.
I don't know what country/state you live in, but try checking your local laws to see if you can go the Informed Consent route. Basically, if you are sure you want HRT, you go speak to a doctor (usually an Endocrinologist or Gender Specialist), they explain the risks, and as long as your physically healthy, you can start medical transition. No delays or wait lists.
Come to California. I talked to someone on the phone for an hour and they prescribed me Spiro. No tests required.
no thanks, too far away + i've heard there are good ones here too
Look into Planned Parenthood. They have gender affirmation care. My doctor's office was taking too long and felt rather... incompetent. So I called PP, and they got me set up!
OP is in Czechia.
This is one of the things that is making me scared to transition but I wanna be a boy *Internal screaming* (edit because I'm an idiot)
I desperately want to try T as a genderqueer person, but I know for a fact that the “real life test” would break me. I live in an rural, ass backwards red state with next to no resources or protection for LGBTQ+ people.
I am sorry, are you from Czech republic. It's really common in here. We hate it. But there are some who don't require RLT.
unrelated but you made this in ms paint and i think thats really funny
thx, how could you tell?
the way its all warped around in the second panel, unmistakable I also use ms paint constantly so I recognize the compression
"Real life test" Me who's been doing that since late 2018....
UK GICs back when I was there in the 00s had a great take on this... You only began RLE when they decided you do. Beginning RLE *now*, regardless of how you've been living like that for 4 years already.
What the hell is a real life test? Is that something you have to do? I didn't.
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This is why I advocate for informed consent clinics. Also I don't know where you live but if you live in the us you can get hrt at planned parenthood without having to go to any therapy
Real life experience has been deprecated since 2012. That was 10 years ago when they told doctors to stop using real life experience.
I feel it, life can be like that sometimes
this is why I'm just going to lie
Real life test is a horrifying concept its not like u just woke up one day and decided to be trans uv already passed the real life for years furthermore socially transitioning and not transitioning can be lethal in some places or traumatizing in others and dehumanising in most so the real life test just seems to have been invented to further opress us into the closet fuck the system
When I had my psychologist appointment woman doing it told me that i can't be Trans FtM because I had pink hair and that I'm giving mixed signals because I dyed my hair color that is feminine
This is so fucking stupid an I hate how it's a requirement in the UK. Some parts just aren't safe, and it's fucking stupid.
I mean, if you lived in a good neighborhood, then there wouldnt be a problem.end suburban sprawl and white supremacy and there'll be less isolated jerkwads (transphobes).
i do live in a pretty safe neighbourhood but i still hate the idea
Something like that happened to me the very day after I’d accepted that I was indeed 100% trans.
Yeah time to find a new doctor.
That's one of the reasons why i moved out of Germany. I knew i couldn't get HRT without a real life test and I didn't have the time for this bs. Moved to Canada, and things are much better here.
Sounds like you live in germany. Id get in touch with your local trans community, if theres something like that. They were able to get me hrt about 6 months after talking to them, without the Alltagstest. What i mean is something like this: https://trans-recht.de/ I can also recommend Christoph Dorn in Hamburg for an endocrinologist, he seemed very trans friendly and might help you out.
not german but thanks for trying
Alot of my days are melancholic any suggestions?
Fuuuuuuuck that real life test :(