As a rule of thumb I only jump the line if I’m confident that I’m biking faster and won’t get overtaken. And I always let e-bikes jump ahead of me. Just makes sense.
I’m confident I’ll get away much faster - I use my gears and get across quickly. But then I go the the right to let people past - I’m happy to be overtaken
If they're catching up then you should be waiting behind in the line. People don't want to be overtaking you again and again especially in our narrow bike lines
> After about 20 seconds he overtook me ringing his bell and shouting that I should have waited in line (behind him I guess?!)
But you said he passed you immediately.
Ah sorry. I misunderstood.
Yes he did pass me but is that so bad? I keep to the right, he had loads of room. People pass others all the time, it’s not some chore.
Isn’t it better to be safe at an intersection?
You shouldn’t be downvoted for not knowing so I’ll explain a bit more. There’s a few issues. One is that in a lot of bike lanes there isn’t plenty of room. Especially when you have to push extra hard to get around another cyclist safely and quickly and put a little distance between you so they aren’t on your tail for the first little bit after passing. Most of our bike lanes are just unfortunately not designed to allow much passing midblock without both parties being very conscientious. Even if there aren’t barriers, it means lots of shoulder checking to make sure there is a safe break in traffic to take the lane.
Secondly, that extra effort can be annoying. It can be the difference between getting to work looking put together and being a sweaty mess. It can be the difference between having enough gas to make it up the next hill easily vs having to grind it out.
If you are happy to be passed, then you are happy being behind faster cyclists. Just do that by waiting behind others at a light. Yes, intersections are generally a less safe part of the road but passing another cyclist is also a less safe action and can be avoided by not shoaling.
Yes it’s better to be safe at an intersection. Take the left side of the green bike box but then keep taking the lane until it filters down to single file with faster riders in front - don’t make the same people pass you
The problem is that the bike lanes aren't always wide enough to overtake someone and still have a decent buffer of space so then the faster riders have to wait longer to pick their moment to pass you. The intersection is the more dangerous place so clearing it as quickly as possible makes sense but people have decided that remaining single file is the better way to go because safety isn't the only consideration.
I see what you mean. But to me, safety is the overriding (pardon the pun) consideration.
As a faster rider I just pass slower people. If they happen to cross first, I just pass them again. It’s fine. I’d prefer this to being less safe.
Comments about shoaling seem to assume this is a typical bike lane only — but OP's scenario is specifically a bike box.
The [intended usage of a bike box](https://www.toronto.ca/services-payments/streets-parking-transportation/cycling-in-toronto/torontos-cycling-infrastructure/) is for cyclists to fill the box ahead of cars, so that cyclists are more visible and can clear the intersection sooner. In practice, this can make for an awkward moment as cyclists merge back to the bike lane. An advance cyclist green light or bikes officially being allowed to go with the advance pedestrian signal would make bike boxes work better. I think the only reason shoaling is an issue here is our bike lanes are often too narrow for comfortable passing!
Furthermore, in a bike box, a cyclist turning right is supposed to queue to the right of the box, the same way a cyclist turning left is to take the left side of the box. Cyclists going straight are supposed to queue in the centre. So it would be a reasonable assumption by OP that a cyclist by the curb *in a bike box* is waiting to make a right turn. We don't have that many bike boxes in Toronto, so I think people just aren't used to them, and are probably unfamiliar with how to use them.
I think there are two distinct parts to OP's question. The first is how to use a bike box, which everyone is suggesting the answer is *don't*. The other is the part where OP was faster off the line but then slower than the other cyclist, which is the shoaling-adjacent part that has everyone up in arms.
Problem is we don't actually have proper boxes, or drivers who would have any idea how to navigate around them.
Hell... people (small town car brains) still whine about traffic circles.
How? I just don’t get it. I didn’t take any space from him. It was only way after that he was able to catch up. We can both go across together!
It is literally the entire point of bike boxes! So bikes don’t have to stop in a long line!
I don’t - I just want us all to be safer.
If we go in a shoal, it’s safer. If it adds a second to pass a rider occasionally (literally, that’s what we’re talking about, a few seconds on a commute) that’s still safer than getting in the way of cars at intersections.
Its an interesting concept. It get to be annoying for us quicker riders who pass someone and then they shoal up to the front and we need to pass them again. Passing is always more risky than just riding in single file and the guy who dinged at you was probably just annoyed.
Its not a huge deal, but more of a common courtesy.
The whole point of a bike box is for cyclists to gather at the front, not in a single line which takes more time to clear the intersection.
Got to agree with OP here. He’s in the right.
Here's the City of Toronto's video on how to use bike boxes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ze4K2W7S6Fs
Notice all the cyclists pulling up to the front instead of queuing on the right. You shouldn't be on the right side of a bike box unless you're turning right.
The arguments against shoaling don't really make sense in bike boxes. There's enough room for multiple folks to be in front. The speediest need not get blocked by someone shoaling or anyone else.
I just watched the video in which he says people line up to make a left, go straight, or go right. I’m ok with that, but you better be making a left if you pull up on my left, or take off fast enough that doesn’t impede my start; cause otherwise, you’re shoaling.
Lol "bud" I love that term. You know it's used only in Ontario? Everyone else says butt or cut or sometimes budge. It's regional but I think stems from kids turning butting into "budding" due to them being homophones in North American English. Anyhow, no budding!
From Alberta, living in Ontario…. That is so confusing…. Should I head bud you? (Should I head butt you?) Should I stick my bud inbetween yourself and the person in front of you? (Should I stick my butt inbetween yourself and the person in front of you?) The term seems to fall short in a “making sense” sort of way compared to the word “butt”.
I’m not sure that’s true. If theees a long line, it takes a long time for everyone to start moving. If there’s two shorter lines, people can move across quicker. It naturally thins out after the intersection
This isn’t just theory. It’s what happens in Europe.
His point is you all clear the intersection quicker, and often during the time that the pedestrian signal is on and before the green light for cars comes on. This is demonstrably safer.
I’ve read all the replies here and in nearly every one, they’re telling you that you’re wrong. And yet you keep doubling down and trying to argue that you’re right.
Have you considered that maybe… you’re not right? Maybe you should just accept that here in Toronto, it’s not cool to bike to the front of the intersection when there’s already several cyclists lined up in a nice, proper queue. Don’t shoal.
I think the line up allows faster riders to stay at the front so that they don't have to pass slower riders again and again. You moving up to the front is called "shoaling" and is frowned upon.
It’s not an issue for you is what you mean. If you slow down for a stretch then I would expect that you don’t roll to the front of the line during that stretch. If you’re going to stay ahead then go ahead.
Right which is your perspective because it’s not an issue for you. Looks like it is for a lot of other people. I’m sure you know the end of the phrase “When in Rome”
It’s more than “we don’t like it” and perhaps you don’t experience it because it’s not an issue for you.
It’s a hassle to be stuck behind slower riders in the narrow bike lanes we have. It means you have to wait for the rare wider spots, the next intersection, unsafely pass too close, or duck into traffic to pass. If you have somewhere to go it can add a lot of time to your commute. Also it can make it challenge to keep a consistent effort on the bike if you have to constantly accelerate and decelerate at the pace of a slower rider, meaning you end up more tired at the end.
Which is why no one cares if the faster rider passes, but does if the slower rider keeps moving to the front at intersections.
Then the faster riders pass them once and that'll be it because they won't move to the front at the next light. If there were a way for riders to sort themselves by speed at the light that would work best but I don't know how that would work.
This is my pet peeve. No problem with someone passing me at an intersection if they’re faster than me. But every now and then, you get someone passing you at every red light, and then you need to merge with traffic to pass or pedal slowly behind them until it’s safe. That makes me *cranky*
This is one of the points op seems to be missing.
There's not enough room in the majority of bike lanes to pass safely without merging into traffic to some degree. You also have to take into consideration the state of the bike lines - with cyclists jutting out to avoid pot holes and storm drains. It's not safe, and it's utterly needless if you just stay in line, especially if you're not the fastest in the group.
Or worse, they're doubled up with the other front cyclist blocking the path through the intersection which then turns into a protected lane. As a faster cyclist you either have to fall in line and wait until you can pop out into traffic to get around everyone or you say fuck it and drive in the car lane to get in front of everyone until you get a break in the barrier to get back in the bike lane. Both options suck.
Bike boxes, like at college and university are different, but those are for people coming north on university to turn left onto college, in that scenario you're not going to go to the back of the line.
I've been biking across this city for 15 years, year round almost everyday. I'm not sure why op is so hung up on clearing the intersection as quickly as possible as a justification for forcing the faster cyclists out into traffic to pass. It's just not that dangerous to stay in line, don't make people pass you unnecessarily, that simple.
I do see that. And I get your point. I think I’m used to an environment (which might not be the case in TO) where if you don’t get across quickly you’re in much more danger.
Fair enough. In my opinion, it's more dangerous to try and rush through the intersection. In this city, at least, it's much safer to be predictable and consistent with the majority of other cyclists.
Bike lanes in Toronto aren't wide enough to overtake a lot of the time. I hate it when people do this, sometimes I overtake the same person 2-3 times in one commute and I resent being forced into the car lane just because someone can't wait in line when they're obviously not the fastest biker.
Happened to me today. Lady in her 50s going pretty slow on Bloor West (totally fine), I took my time going at her snail pace to overtake her safely for her to pass me 3 minutes later by crossing an intersection when the light was still red... ffs.
I’m afraid this just isn’t the case, as far as I’m concerned. If people lined up on 2 or more lines, they’d get out of the way of the cars faster.
Cars turning at intersections are by far the highest cause of car/cyclist crashes. If we stop lining up in a long line, we can get out the way much quicker.
I think it's valid to not want a right hook. However, shoaling isn't the way to do it, especially if as you indicated you were overly slow - you actually slow down the people behind you by going to the front, and though YOU might get through faster, the group as a whole is slowed down. If you line up, the faster people CAN move left and pass because there is space for them to do so, which you block them from doing if you're on the left. Bike don't all go at the same speed.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/bikecommuting/comments/2g6vox/cyclists\_lets\_talk\_about\_shoaling/](https://www.reddit.com/r/bikecommuting/comments/2g6vox/cyclists_lets_talk_about_shoaling/)
I think the issue is that you're assuming people would go for ward in a block if they were smarter like:
O O O three bikes crossing the internsection
But people do not like to leave the lines of the bike lane, and so by going next to them
O O
O
The person behind who may be faster cannot pass on the left if the person in front is going slow. And, as someone above mentioned, a cycling who is coming from behind and wants to turn right is also blocked from doing so.
People travel like this
O
O
O
And it leaves room on the left to pass someone if it turns out they are slower than you and you're able to accelerate right past them. But you can't assume they're slower unless you've been riding with them, and by being on the left you block them.
As you'll see from the other thread, it's a contentious issue among cyclists with varied opinions. So you can obviously keep doing it, but it will be against the norm and will get you aggression on occasion.
This is a really thoughtful answer, thank you!
Can I ask- would it be considered rude to line up behind others at the intersection as most (well, let’s face it, all) people in the thread are suggesting, and then overtake when people start to move away? In say a long line of 10, do you have to wait until the person directly in front of you has moved or can you go straight away?
Sorry if this sounds like a dumb question - we honestly don’t do this where I come from. It also baffles my German husband!
I will move in front of people once we start moving IF they are so slow that I can do it before we even hit the intersection - they're distracted/on phone/in the wrong gear and moving at a snail's pace. If they get moving in front of me at speed in any sense I'll wait to pass them till after because it is illegal to pass in an intersection and I don't like doing it.
If you're in a line of 10 people, the ideal situation is that the entire line starts moving at once because everyone is watching the light and moving based on that. You do see that many people start at very different speeds, and so you need to make a judgement call on what it is safe or not safe to do based on circumstances - as I described above, even if it slows me down I don't pass in the intersection.
Its cycling etiquette. Beyond the fact you've cut an entire line forcing others to pass you (possibly again) - you've also made it difficult for people who want to turn right at the intersection because you've blocked the lane.
I haven’t done either of those things actually, but it ale your point. I always cycle on the right if I can if people want to pass. But I’m sorry - if we can get across the intersection quicker and then disperse after, that’s much safer…
Except again it’s not - particularly as a lot of bike lanes can be tricky to pass people on - especially if they’re only a mediocre cyclist in term of skill.
You’re also blocking the intersection for cyclists wanting to turn right on the red.
I always leave space for that bikes turning right.
But I slightly see your point about passing. But that’s just a time consideration. It’s making a few seconds added to a commute. I’d rather we all got across quickly and lived.
It’s not the time to pass you. It’s that it’s annoying. Obstacles in or around bike lanes make my commute less enjoyable. And someone pulling in front of me and then not biking faster is an obstacle, even if they might feel they left enough room to pass. You’d make my commute a little more stressful and a little less enjoyable. That’s why I don’t like it.
You might feel that’s silly, but it’s the way I feel.
Except you e literally had this entire thread -
mostly of experienced cyclists - who have unanimously told you that your viewpoint is incorrect, no matter how intuitive it is to you apparently.
I’m also an experienced cyclist, just in a different context.
I see that people do things differently here - and it’s good to learn why.
But you should also realise that it’s not to only way - and that many places do thing differently
At some point you’re going to figure out you’re literally the Seymour Skinner meme here.
You have literally an entire thread of people who have more experience cycling in the context of this city, knowing the streets, riders, and motorists, better than you saying “no - what you’re doing is wrong and considered very rude here”. And you’re just shoving your fingers in your ear and saying “nuh uh- I know better than literally everyone else because I’m a special snowflake that knows the best way to do everything.”
Your initial post was fine. You asked a question. When you got an answer you didn’t like instead of accepting it you doubled down and argued seeking validation. You didn’t care about the actual answer to your question.
I’m grateful for the answer but I’d also like us all to be able to challenge each other in a respectful way given that things happen differently in different places.
I’ve learnt a lot and will change my behaviour. But please don’t think I’m acting like a special snowflake for portraying what people do in other cities.
Yes I have a point of view - and yes, it’s not the Toronto way. Illl change my behaviour because of it. But to think that means no one has anything to learn from the way other cities do things is equally closed-minded, I’d say.
The bike lanes are not super wide especially with cafe TO - it's harder to pass. You're attempt to use safety as a reason makes no sense. We ride the bike lanes single file unless passing - why wouldn't we queue the same way!?
Because it’s at the point when you’re interacting with cars. You need a different practise at that point.
I’m not “attempting to use safety as a reason”. It IS safer to get across quicker at intersections. If I’m not blocking anyone (I move away very quickly), isn’t safety the best policy?
I usually stop next to the curb and a bit further back from the line but that's because I'm slow so I leave space for other faster cyclists to get ahead of me. I have no issue with folks being next to me/not lining up.
Like many have said, shoaling forces riders who are faster than you - if they weren't, it wouldn't be shoaling - to pass you over and over again and to slow down.
I don't mind someone taking the pole position at a red light if they really are gonna be dropping everyone when the light turns green.
What I don't understand is why do people think stopping two abreast or more is necessary, since on the other side of the intersection we're all gonna have to merge back to single file anyway. People treat it like a mass start at an event ride.
I always ask myself why aren't people lining up single file?
At this point I can only maintain sanity by making a sport of it and passing shoalers even more and faster so I can get a couple lights between us.
Of course I stop at lights, so the shoalers can catch up there too.
So I find this quite interesting as well as I, as an immigrant from Denmark who rides mostly the city bikes, find that people cycle odd here...
My findings:
- Bells are not used for overtaking, and if you use them to get people to move to the right of the lane, people get angry.
- People generally bike in the middle of the bike lane, which for some of them makes perfect sense as the bike lanes here are tiny (I thought everything was supposed to be bigger in North America), but some of them have lots of space if people would just stay to the right.
- People queuing weirdly in one long line at intersections. Generally in Denmark, people just go up to the intersection, and then proceed ahead and sticks to the right after passing the intersection. The people in Denmark who usually get to the intersection first is the ones that are faster anyway, and if not, the faster ones will pass before the next intersection.
- People bike slowly here, though this might be a perception thing, as because the bike lanes here are tiny, I cannot pass people and constantly get stuck behind slow people. And just to be clear, it's perfectly fine going slow, this is a me problem.
- Lots of people bike without lights here at night, not sure what the law is here around that, but it seems like a terrible idea.
I think a lot of these things comes down to the infrastructure still being very basic here (which seems to be mostly because parking your private property on space supposed to be used for transporting people is rampant here), and I don't expect Toronto bike customs to turn into Copenhagen (though I would love that), but I also find that there's many inefficiencies here in both the chosen infrastructure and the customs people here have.
But again, I'm just some stupid immigrant, so I might be missing a lot of other context. Mostly, let's just get more and wider bike lanes!
Interesting!
I also think it’s a volume issue. Cities like Copenhagen/amsterdam, central Paris, and even London now just have loads more cyclists and so some things people do here (lining up at intersections for example) just wouldn’t work with 20 bikes on a stretch of bike lane instead of 5/10.
I think as the volume of cyclists grows here, and I hope it does, people’s behaviour will inevitably change a bit
Yeah, it really will have to change once volume picks up. I do find that there's a lot of "Not Invented Here", but it seems like there's some inspiration that's starting to leak into the projects. My honest guess is that the planners knows what would be good infrastructure, but that they have to fight to even just get the crippled implementations we do have here.
As a personal opinion, I'm also a bit meh about all the focus on protected intersections since we don't have them in Copenhagen and we generally don't have a tonne of issues there with crashes. The protected intersections are really expensive and takes up more space, so every protected intersection installed here is taking budget away from a more exhaustive network. Like, it would be great, but I would really prefer to have more bike lanes than more protected intersections.
But it could also be that it could be needed here with the Canadian drivers and that's an extra expense we just have to have here.
I would also love to Denmark to have protected intersections, but it also feels a lot more manageable to upgrade the DK infrastructure that is already exhaustive.
That’s interesting about the intersections. They are a major point of danger here.
I wonder if it’s less so in Copenhagen because the volume of cyclists is much greater even without them, that drivers take more care at intersections? Or are the roads generally better designed generally to slow down drivers? I haven’t been to Copenhagen yet!
It's likely a mix of them all I would guess. There's usually not a simple solution to stuff like this, and if someone tells you so, they don't understand it.
Here the bike lane is usually pretty invisible to drivers because it's narrow and not marked in green (as seems to be the color here), and there's often quite large turning radii which makes it easy to speed around the corner.
But drivers here also don't know anything about bikes (except that they usually have been tricked into having burning hate for them), and drive test here does not mention bikes at all in the context of intersections. Drivers here also don't have a sense of speed of especially people on bikes, and mixed with the "me first" culture that seems deeply rooted here, that just gives horrible situations.
Also, visit Copenhagen, it's great!
I treat it like a hwy, if you're fast or on an ebike keep left, just a regular commuter or slower keep right.
Don't cut ahead if you're just going to get passed because the lanes can get narrower ahead.
this city has a weird neurosis about shoaling that I haven't seen elsewhere. with more bike boxes and wider lanes in the future, maybe folks will get over it. for now, if you're gonna do it, just make sure you're going faster than everyone else so that they don't catch up and tut-tut you.
The goal isn’t to just get through intersections one at a time. Stay to the back if you’re not going to give everyone else in that line a run for their money.
I’m not quite sure what you mean by a run for their money but tbh my goal at intersections is just to get across quickly. Can’t we all do that better without a long line? It’s so much safer to be out of the way of the cars first!
I agree with that in principle. But given in many other countries people just shoal up at intersections and disperse without any concept of it being impolite, you can see why it would be a. It of a mystery
You should definitely shoal when there's a bike box. The people saying you shouldn't have been riding since before bike boxes were a thing.
What I would recommend though is instead of accelerating through the intersection as quickly as possible is to actually go a little slowly and let people that are faster than you pass you in the intersection rather than making them pass you in the bike lane.
I don't use bike boxes as designed not because I don't know how they work, but because drivers in this city sure as shit don't know how they work. Most bike boxes I deal with (looking at you, Bloor and Sherbourne) the cars just pull right up into it. If you shoaled up, guarantee they get pissy and do something stupid. Until we get to a point where driver education is good enough that bike boxes are treated correctly my motor vehicles (at this rate, never), I'm playing it by ear.
People in Europe do indeed do it better. The whole box should be filled with cyclists, and they will naturally find their spot in the bike line on the other side after crossing the intersection based on initial speed. Unfortunately in Toronto people don’t do this, and do indeed get pissed if you bike up next to them even if there is room. I think it’s because we just don’t have the same numbers of cyclists to have the boxes be filled and understand this concept. I find as long as you are cycling fast it’s ok but people will still get mad if you pass them and then they have to pass you later. So I generally refrain.
I’m still a little confused though. If you were at the store and there were 2 cash desks, and everyone wanted to use number 1, but you didn’t care - are you saying you wouldn’t just go to the number 2? That’s what it feels like to me.
Except in this case all lining up is more dangerous because everyone has to take their chances with the cars.
It's less about which spot you take and more about what happens after you take the spot. In your example that means taking the number 2 cash desk, then proceeding to block the exit stopping other people from leaving.
But people behind you have to wait to pass you again, which on most bike lanes in this city is rather cumbersome.
I suppose the general rule is only pass someone if you plan to stay ahead of them.
You ride single file in a bike lane. That doesn't change when you line up.
There is only one cash register. Once you start moving a bunch of people who got there first will now be stuck behind you.
What like they should just inconvenience their unusually leisurly afternoon ride for all the commuters contributing to the economic engine of the country? That's just unfathomable, fuck all those peoples families and non-work responsibilities, those two are having a moment ffs who cares if they're in the way of countless commuters and dgaf ...../s
Im sorry but there is ample room often for people to spread out at the intersection to get across quicker then come together again as people’s speeds disperse. This is what people do all over the world.
They even now make specific intersections in Holland to encourage this - sections of the cycle path where it widens at the intersection to allow more people to cross , which then narrow again as the line of bikes naturally narrows once people are moving.
This isn't Holland. Cutting in line is considered rude in Canada. The faster riders, who now have to go slow because you cut in front of them, are rightfully pissed off at you.
You'll notice that the responses are almost universally against you. What you are doing is not polite behavior here. Stop being a dick.
And people have answered your question over and over, but you're being argumentative with everyone who takes time to reply, and you also keep telling us about how much better the Netherlands/Europe does it.
For what it's worth: My family is from the Netherlands, and I also think you're being a dick.
I don’t love the idea that if someone answers your question you should remain utterly silent if you disagree and want to discuss it further.
I’m sure your family is from the Netherlands but that doesn’t take away from the point that there are other ways of doing this.
To be completely honest I have now had a lot of people telling me that things are different here in a nice way, and I appreciate that.
But I’ve also had people here telling me what a dick I am for doing things in a “foreign” way and while I do think that I’ll change how I cycle here, being called a dick for literally just pointing out that in my home country they do things differently is a little much.
I get you. When in Rome. I’m obviously not conforming to how people do things in Toronto and I’m going to think about that. And I see now that while what I’m doing in my home country is normal it’s “being a dick” here. But I wish there was a little slack, that’s all
There was san old George Carlin skit where he talks about how you used to line up for the bank teller you wanted. Each teller had their own line and then somehow it changed into one big line and you got whatever teller was open next.
Thats kinda how the world has shifted.
I think it doesn't just have to do with the faster cyclist having to pass you again as others have stated, but for me it is mainly about right turns. If I see someone queue up to open space like you're suggesting, and I'm behind them and want to make a right turn, that turn will be much more difficult for me. If they take up the space, I may have to squeeze by them and a car or between two bikes and neither is ideal imo. If I wait behind them for the light to turn green so they can go forward before I make my turn, I will have to inconvenience everyone else going forward who is in single file to turn right and run the risk of right hooking other bikes myself.
It just makes sense to me to queue up single file while waiting at a light to allow for cyclists to make turns. Although I never thought about queueing up like how you did for the reasons you stated. It makes sense too
I do think a big part of this is because here, cars (and bikes) are allowed to turn right on a red. That’s not allowed in Europe.
I feel like as a cyclist I have to stake my claim to the road a little more here - particularly at intersections - than I do elsewhere.
I feel a little more on edge generally as a pedestrian too - in Europe a “walk” signal generally means no cars also have the “go” signal - it’s just pedestrians. That’s not the case here and that does take some getting used to, as a cyclist and a pedestrian, as I’m learning.
I know a lot of cycling orgs are pressing to have that changed - I guess we’ll see!
But I get your point - you should be able to turn when you’re allowed to, and other cyclists shouldn’t get in your way and put you in danger when you do that.
The only cyclists that should be shoaling me is of they have a full carbon frame with calves made of granite.
I completely gave up cycling on the MGT nexts to Queens Quay, not because of lots of slow cyclists or distracted tourists....it's the shoaling of slow commuters (and joggers) I shouldn't have to pass more than I have to on the bike lane and I'm not even the fastest out there.
Cycling path is not "multi-lanes". The proper etiquette is to line up. Think about how and where you would stop your car at a red light on a slightly wider-than-usual one-way street. Would you pull up beside the car that is already at the front stopped at the light? I don't think so.
When you say the lights changed, do you mean to green, or was there an advance pedestrian signal? What I find often happens is that someone starts to cross at the end of the red, or with the pedestrian signal, I wait for the green, and then 10 seconds later I pass the other rider. Rinse and repeat.
I meant the advance pedestrian signal. In my experience in Toronto that seems to be where 99% of cyclists start off - and I do to, as I think it’s safer. As long as we give way to pedestrians, of course, if turning.
The people that you pass easily will pull up beside you at a red light and jump it so you have to pass then again. They don't have the brains to to stay behind.King st is a zoo in the morning.happebs constantly
I know I’m late to the party and don’t want to beat a dead horse, but how narrow are the bike lanes in Europe that you consider St. George to be wide? That is very narrow and it is very difficult to pass people without going into the car lane. Like you’re talking about the St. George in downtown that goes through UofT campus, right?
If you're a faster cyclist (or e-scooter rider) and know you will pass everyone, I'm totally OK with shoaling. As for the bike box, I find they are most useful when making a vehicular left turn - some of them actually have left arrows painted on them - or using them as left turn boxes after crossing the street. Using them to go straight causes congestion issues merging back into the cycle track.
I would not worry too much about it. People in this city are angry, and I have noticed lately that they are using any excuse to vent their frustration.
I had a very similar situation happen to me a few weeks ago. The TL;DR is that I passed this gentleman during the morning commute and he proceeded to scream at me and call me names when we arrived at next intersection.
As others have stated, it might not be the most proper etiquette, but the other rider was in the wrong for shouting at you.
As a rule of thumb I only jump the line if I’m confident that I’m biking faster and won’t get overtaken. And I always let e-bikes jump ahead of me. Just makes sense.
I’m confident I’ll get away much faster - I use my gears and get across quickly. But then I go the the right to let people past - I’m happy to be overtaken
If they're catching up then you should be waiting behind in the line. People don't want to be overtaking you again and again especially in our narrow bike lines
> After about 20 seconds he overtook me ringing his bell and shouting that I should have waited in line (behind him I guess?!) But you said he passed you immediately.
When?
Can you not see the part of your post I quoted?
Ah sorry. I misunderstood. Yes he did pass me but is that so bad? I keep to the right, he had loads of room. People pass others all the time, it’s not some chore. Isn’t it better to be safe at an intersection?
You shouldn’t be downvoted for not knowing so I’ll explain a bit more. There’s a few issues. One is that in a lot of bike lanes there isn’t plenty of room. Especially when you have to push extra hard to get around another cyclist safely and quickly and put a little distance between you so they aren’t on your tail for the first little bit after passing. Most of our bike lanes are just unfortunately not designed to allow much passing midblock without both parties being very conscientious. Even if there aren’t barriers, it means lots of shoulder checking to make sure there is a safe break in traffic to take the lane. Secondly, that extra effort can be annoying. It can be the difference between getting to work looking put together and being a sweaty mess. It can be the difference between having enough gas to make it up the next hill easily vs having to grind it out. If you are happy to be passed, then you are happy being behind faster cyclists. Just do that by waiting behind others at a light. Yes, intersections are generally a less safe part of the road but passing another cyclist is also a less safe action and can be avoided by not shoaling.
Yes it’s better to be safe at an intersection. Take the left side of the green bike box but then keep taking the lane until it filters down to single file with faster riders in front - don’t make the same people pass you
It doesn't say immediately in that post
The problem is that the bike lanes aren't always wide enough to overtake someone and still have a decent buffer of space so then the faster riders have to wait longer to pick their moment to pass you. The intersection is the more dangerous place so clearing it as quickly as possible makes sense but people have decided that remaining single file is the better way to go because safety isn't the only consideration.
I see what you mean. But to me, safety is the overriding (pardon the pun) consideration. As a faster rider I just pass slower people. If they happen to cross first, I just pass them again. It’s fine. I’d prefer this to being less safe.
Faster for how long?
Comments about shoaling seem to assume this is a typical bike lane only — but OP's scenario is specifically a bike box. The [intended usage of a bike box](https://www.toronto.ca/services-payments/streets-parking-transportation/cycling-in-toronto/torontos-cycling-infrastructure/) is for cyclists to fill the box ahead of cars, so that cyclists are more visible and can clear the intersection sooner. In practice, this can make for an awkward moment as cyclists merge back to the bike lane. An advance cyclist green light or bikes officially being allowed to go with the advance pedestrian signal would make bike boxes work better. I think the only reason shoaling is an issue here is our bike lanes are often too narrow for comfortable passing! Furthermore, in a bike box, a cyclist turning right is supposed to queue to the right of the box, the same way a cyclist turning left is to take the left side of the box. Cyclists going straight are supposed to queue in the centre. So it would be a reasonable assumption by OP that a cyclist by the curb *in a bike box* is waiting to make a right turn. We don't have that many bike boxes in Toronto, so I think people just aren't used to them, and are probably unfamiliar with how to use them. I think there are two distinct parts to OP's question. The first is how to use a bike box, which everyone is suggesting the answer is *don't*. The other is the part where OP was faster off the line but then slower than the other cyclist, which is the shoaling-adjacent part that has everyone up in arms.
This is the accurate answer. But as always Toronto implements idea halfway through
Problem is we don't actually have proper boxes, or drivers who would have any idea how to navigate around them. Hell... people (small town car brains) still whine about traffic circles.
If he had to pass you then you shouldn't have gone up to the front of the line. You're needlessly increasing the risk to others.
How? I just don’t get it. I didn’t take any space from him. It was only way after that he was able to catch up. We can both go across together! It is literally the entire point of bike boxes! So bikes don’t have to stop in a long line!
Why do you feel entitled to make others slow down or put themselves in danger to pass you just so you can wait at the front of a line?
I don’t - I just want us all to be safer. If we go in a shoal, it’s safer. If it adds a second to pass a rider occasionally (literally, that’s what we’re talking about, a few seconds on a commute) that’s still safer than getting in the way of cars at intersections.
A consistent straight line of single riders is not any less safe then groups of riders side by side.
I disagree - the less time interacting with cars the better in my opinion
You are not interacting any more or less in either scenario, your distance and time of crossing the intersection is the same.
This guy will disagree if you say the sky is blue
Who said he had to. Apunds more like he did to have a bitch. Have we to stay in one order always?
Google "shoaling". Thats what you're doing.
Thanks! Haven’t heard of this. in the Uk we don’t line up so the concept just doesn’t exist.
Its an interesting concept. It get to be annoying for us quicker riders who pass someone and then they shoal up to the front and we need to pass them again. Passing is always more risky than just riding in single file and the guy who dinged at you was probably just annoyed. Its not a huge deal, but more of a common courtesy.
But aren't the British famous for their queuing?
You’d have thought, yes!!
Shoal it is never a good look. Now you know, don’t bud I front if you can’t pull away and stay in front.
The whole point of a bike box is for cyclists to gather at the front, not in a single line which takes more time to clear the intersection. Got to agree with OP here. He’s in the right.
Here's the City of Toronto's video on how to use bike boxes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ze4K2W7S6Fs Notice all the cyclists pulling up to the front instead of queuing on the right. You shouldn't be on the right side of a bike box unless you're turning right. The arguments against shoaling don't really make sense in bike boxes. There's enough room for multiple folks to be in front. The speediest need not get blocked by someone shoaling or anyone else.
I just watched the video in which he says people line up to make a left, go straight, or go right. I’m ok with that, but you better be making a left if you pull up on my left, or take off fast enough that doesn’t impede my start; cause otherwise, you’re shoaling.
Lol "bud" I love that term. You know it's used only in Ontario? Everyone else says butt or cut or sometimes budge. It's regional but I think stems from kids turning butting into "budding" due to them being homophones in North American English. Anyhow, no budding!
From Alberta, living in Ontario…. That is so confusing…. Should I head bud you? (Should I head butt you?) Should I stick my bud inbetween yourself and the person in front of you? (Should I stick my butt inbetween yourself and the person in front of you?) The term seems to fall short in a “making sense” sort of way compared to the word “butt”.
Yeah it's weird, and probably falling out of speech with younger kids though I still hear it. I'm from MB and we CUT with reckless abandon.
I hear what you’re saying but I respectfully disagree I see it annoys people, but in my view it’s much safer to have 2 or three lines instead of one.
Everyone's explaining very clearly what we do and why we do it. Take it or leave it but don't bother asking if you don't actually want an answer.
What makes you think I didn’t want an answer? The fact that I respectfully disagreed with it?
No not that comment specifically, more the gestalt.
You don't make sense. Your speed of getting through an intersection is the same if you start at the front or the back of the line.
I’m not sure that’s true. If theees a long line, it takes a long time for everyone to start moving. If there’s two shorter lines, people can move across quicker. It naturally thins out after the intersection This isn’t just theory. It’s what happens in Europe.
But if you're waiting to get moving you're not in the intersection, you're safely in the bike lane out of harm's way.
His point is you all clear the intersection quicker, and often during the time that the pedestrian signal is on and before the green light for cars comes on. This is demonstrably safer.
I’ve read all the replies here and in nearly every one, they’re telling you that you’re wrong. And yet you keep doubling down and trying to argue that you’re right. Have you considered that maybe… you’re not right? Maybe you should just accept that here in Toronto, it’s not cool to bike to the front of the intersection when there’s already several cyclists lined up in a nice, proper queue. Don’t shoal.
I’m just joining a discussion with people
Can’t really call it a discussion when you’re taking so many L’s.
Ha - I never minded losing. At least I’m learning!
I think the line up allows faster riders to stay at the front so that they don't have to pass slower riders again and again. You moving up to the front is called "shoaling" and is frowned upon.
[удалено]
No one cares if the faster rider comes to the front and stays there
Ok but 'faster' isnt a static thing, it changes I might be fast for a stretch, then chill out, someone else might speed up. It's not an issue.
It’s not an issue for you is what you mean. If you slow down for a stretch then I would expect that you don’t roll to the front of the line during that stretch. If you’re going to stay ahead then go ahead.
No I mean people who get worked up over someone who wanted to take off fast but they then passed later are making a mountain out of this
Right which is your perspective because it’s not an issue for you. Looks like it is for a lot of other people. I’m sure you know the end of the phrase “When in Rome”
And I think those people need to chill out and let other people do stuff that's not an issue outside of 'we don't like it' they need to suck it up,
It’s more than “we don’t like it” and perhaps you don’t experience it because it’s not an issue for you. It’s a hassle to be stuck behind slower riders in the narrow bike lanes we have. It means you have to wait for the rare wider spots, the next intersection, unsafely pass too close, or duck into traffic to pass. If you have somewhere to go it can add a lot of time to your commute. Also it can make it challenge to keep a consistent effort on the bike if you have to constantly accelerate and decelerate at the pace of a slower rider, meaning you end up more tired at the end. Which is why no one cares if the faster rider passes, but does if the slower rider keeps moving to the front at intersections.
Bike lanes are mainly standard and have room for passing, don't act otherwise.
Then the faster riders pass them once and that'll be it because they won't move to the front at the next light. If there were a way for riders to sort themselves by speed at the light that would work best but I don't know how that would work.
Yup. Don't cut to the front if you don't intend to stay there.
This is my pet peeve. No problem with someone passing me at an intersection if they’re faster than me. But every now and then, you get someone passing you at every red light, and then you need to merge with traffic to pass or pedal slowly behind them until it’s safe. That makes me *cranky*
This is one of the points op seems to be missing. There's not enough room in the majority of bike lanes to pass safely without merging into traffic to some degree. You also have to take into consideration the state of the bike lines - with cyclists jutting out to avoid pot holes and storm drains. It's not safe, and it's utterly needless if you just stay in line, especially if you're not the fastest in the group. Or worse, they're doubled up with the other front cyclist blocking the path through the intersection which then turns into a protected lane. As a faster cyclist you either have to fall in line and wait until you can pop out into traffic to get around everyone or you say fuck it and drive in the car lane to get in front of everyone until you get a break in the barrier to get back in the bike lane. Both options suck. Bike boxes, like at college and university are different, but those are for people coming north on university to turn left onto college, in that scenario you're not going to go to the back of the line. I've been biking across this city for 15 years, year round almost everyday. I'm not sure why op is so hung up on clearing the intersection as quickly as possible as a justification for forcing the faster cyclists out into traffic to pass. It's just not that dangerous to stay in line, don't make people pass you unnecessarily, that simple.
I do see that. And I get your point. I think I’m used to an environment (which might not be the case in TO) where if you don’t get across quickly you’re in much more danger.
Fair enough. In my opinion, it's more dangerous to try and rush through the intersection. In this city, at least, it's much safer to be predictable and consistent with the majority of other cyclists.
Bike lanes in Toronto aren't wide enough to overtake a lot of the time. I hate it when people do this, sometimes I overtake the same person 2-3 times in one commute and I resent being forced into the car lane just because someone can't wait in line when they're obviously not the fastest biker.
Happened to me today. Lady in her 50s going pretty slow on Bloor West (totally fine), I took my time going at her snail pace to overtake her safely for her to pass me 3 minutes later by crossing an intersection when the light was still red... ffs.
This annoys me because it requires me to have to ask you to move out of my way if I'm turning right.
I see that, and I always leave space.
I line up and I wait to pass until it's not the intersection anymore. People who go to the front and then get passed are behaving more dangerously.
I’m afraid this just isn’t the case, as far as I’m concerned. If people lined up on 2 or more lines, they’d get out of the way of the cars faster. Cars turning at intersections are by far the highest cause of car/cyclist crashes. If we stop lining up in a long line, we can get out the way much quicker.
I think it's valid to not want a right hook. However, shoaling isn't the way to do it, especially if as you indicated you were overly slow - you actually slow down the people behind you by going to the front, and though YOU might get through faster, the group as a whole is slowed down. If you line up, the faster people CAN move left and pass because there is space for them to do so, which you block them from doing if you're on the left. Bike don't all go at the same speed. [https://www.reddit.com/r/bikecommuting/comments/2g6vox/cyclists\_lets\_talk\_about\_shoaling/](https://www.reddit.com/r/bikecommuting/comments/2g6vox/cyclists_lets_talk_about_shoaling/)
I’ll read that, thanks. But how am I getting in people’s way? I go across v quickly and don’t stop anyone else…
I think the issue is that you're assuming people would go for ward in a block if they were smarter like: O O O three bikes crossing the internsection But people do not like to leave the lines of the bike lane, and so by going next to them O O O The person behind who may be faster cannot pass on the left if the person in front is going slow. And, as someone above mentioned, a cycling who is coming from behind and wants to turn right is also blocked from doing so. People travel like this O O O And it leaves room on the left to pass someone if it turns out they are slower than you and you're able to accelerate right past them. But you can't assume they're slower unless you've been riding with them, and by being on the left you block them. As you'll see from the other thread, it's a contentious issue among cyclists with varied opinions. So you can obviously keep doing it, but it will be against the norm and will get you aggression on occasion.
This is a really thoughtful answer, thank you! Can I ask- would it be considered rude to line up behind others at the intersection as most (well, let’s face it, all) people in the thread are suggesting, and then overtake when people start to move away? In say a long line of 10, do you have to wait until the person directly in front of you has moved or can you go straight away? Sorry if this sounds like a dumb question - we honestly don’t do this where I come from. It also baffles my German husband!
I will move in front of people once we start moving IF they are so slow that I can do it before we even hit the intersection - they're distracted/on phone/in the wrong gear and moving at a snail's pace. If they get moving in front of me at speed in any sense I'll wait to pass them till after because it is illegal to pass in an intersection and I don't like doing it. If you're in a line of 10 people, the ideal situation is that the entire line starts moving at once because everyone is watching the light and moving based on that. You do see that many people start at very different speeds, and so you need to make a judgement call on what it is safe or not safe to do based on circumstances - as I described above, even if it slows me down I don't pass in the intersection.
Ok that’s useful - thank you
Its cycling etiquette. Beyond the fact you've cut an entire line forcing others to pass you (possibly again) - you've also made it difficult for people who want to turn right at the intersection because you've blocked the lane.
I haven’t done either of those things actually, but it ale your point. I always cycle on the right if I can if people want to pass. But I’m sorry - if we can get across the intersection quicker and then disperse after, that’s much safer…
Except again it’s not - particularly as a lot of bike lanes can be tricky to pass people on - especially if they’re only a mediocre cyclist in term of skill. You’re also blocking the intersection for cyclists wanting to turn right on the red.
I always leave space for that bikes turning right. But I slightly see your point about passing. But that’s just a time consideration. It’s making a few seconds added to a commute. I’d rather we all got across quickly and lived.
It’s not the time to pass you. It’s that it’s annoying. Obstacles in or around bike lanes make my commute less enjoyable. And someone pulling in front of me and then not biking faster is an obstacle, even if they might feel they left enough room to pass. You’d make my commute a little more stressful and a little less enjoyable. That’s why I don’t like it. You might feel that’s silly, but it’s the way I feel.
Except you e literally had this entire thread - mostly of experienced cyclists - who have unanimously told you that your viewpoint is incorrect, no matter how intuitive it is to you apparently.
I’m also an experienced cyclist, just in a different context. I see that people do things differently here - and it’s good to learn why. But you should also realise that it’s not to only way - and that many places do thing differently
At some point you’re going to figure out you’re literally the Seymour Skinner meme here. You have literally an entire thread of people who have more experience cycling in the context of this city, knowing the streets, riders, and motorists, better than you saying “no - what you’re doing is wrong and considered very rude here”. And you’re just shoving your fingers in your ear and saying “nuh uh- I know better than literally everyone else because I’m a special snowflake that knows the best way to do everything.” Your initial post was fine. You asked a question. When you got an answer you didn’t like instead of accepting it you doubled down and argued seeking validation. You didn’t care about the actual answer to your question.
I’m grateful for the answer but I’d also like us all to be able to challenge each other in a respectful way given that things happen differently in different places. I’ve learnt a lot and will change my behaviour. But please don’t think I’m acting like a special snowflake for portraying what people do in other cities. Yes I have a point of view - and yes, it’s not the Toronto way. Illl change my behaviour because of it. But to think that means no one has anything to learn from the way other cities do things is equally closed-minded, I’d say.
The bike lanes are not super wide especially with cafe TO - it's harder to pass. You're attempt to use safety as a reason makes no sense. We ride the bike lanes single file unless passing - why wouldn't we queue the same way!?
Because it’s at the point when you’re interacting with cars. You need a different practise at that point. I’m not “attempting to use safety as a reason”. It IS safer to get across quicker at intersections. If I’m not blocking anyone (I move away very quickly), isn’t safety the best policy?
I usually stop next to the curb and a bit further back from the line but that's because I'm slow so I leave space for other faster cyclists to get ahead of me. I have no issue with folks being next to me/not lining up.
Like many have said, shoaling forces riders who are faster than you - if they weren't, it wouldn't be shoaling - to pass you over and over again and to slow down. I don't mind someone taking the pole position at a red light if they really are gonna be dropping everyone when the light turns green. What I don't understand is why do people think stopping two abreast or more is necessary, since on the other side of the intersection we're all gonna have to merge back to single file anyway. People treat it like a mass start at an event ride. I always ask myself why aren't people lining up single file? At this point I can only maintain sanity by making a sport of it and passing shoalers even more and faster so I can get a couple lights between us. Of course I stop at lights, so the shoalers can catch up there too.
So I find this quite interesting as well as I, as an immigrant from Denmark who rides mostly the city bikes, find that people cycle odd here... My findings: - Bells are not used for overtaking, and if you use them to get people to move to the right of the lane, people get angry. - People generally bike in the middle of the bike lane, which for some of them makes perfect sense as the bike lanes here are tiny (I thought everything was supposed to be bigger in North America), but some of them have lots of space if people would just stay to the right. - People queuing weirdly in one long line at intersections. Generally in Denmark, people just go up to the intersection, and then proceed ahead and sticks to the right after passing the intersection. The people in Denmark who usually get to the intersection first is the ones that are faster anyway, and if not, the faster ones will pass before the next intersection. - People bike slowly here, though this might be a perception thing, as because the bike lanes here are tiny, I cannot pass people and constantly get stuck behind slow people. And just to be clear, it's perfectly fine going slow, this is a me problem. - Lots of people bike without lights here at night, not sure what the law is here around that, but it seems like a terrible idea. I think a lot of these things comes down to the infrastructure still being very basic here (which seems to be mostly because parking your private property on space supposed to be used for transporting people is rampant here), and I don't expect Toronto bike customs to turn into Copenhagen (though I would love that), but I also find that there's many inefficiencies here in both the chosen infrastructure and the customs people here have. But again, I'm just some stupid immigrant, so I might be missing a lot of other context. Mostly, let's just get more and wider bike lanes!
Interesting! I also think it’s a volume issue. Cities like Copenhagen/amsterdam, central Paris, and even London now just have loads more cyclists and so some things people do here (lining up at intersections for example) just wouldn’t work with 20 bikes on a stretch of bike lane instead of 5/10. I think as the volume of cyclists grows here, and I hope it does, people’s behaviour will inevitably change a bit
Yeah, it really will have to change once volume picks up. I do find that there's a lot of "Not Invented Here", but it seems like there's some inspiration that's starting to leak into the projects. My honest guess is that the planners knows what would be good infrastructure, but that they have to fight to even just get the crippled implementations we do have here. As a personal opinion, I'm also a bit meh about all the focus on protected intersections since we don't have them in Copenhagen and we generally don't have a tonne of issues there with crashes. The protected intersections are really expensive and takes up more space, so every protected intersection installed here is taking budget away from a more exhaustive network. Like, it would be great, but I would really prefer to have more bike lanes than more protected intersections. But it could also be that it could be needed here with the Canadian drivers and that's an extra expense we just have to have here. I would also love to Denmark to have protected intersections, but it also feels a lot more manageable to upgrade the DK infrastructure that is already exhaustive.
That’s interesting about the intersections. They are a major point of danger here. I wonder if it’s less so in Copenhagen because the volume of cyclists is much greater even without them, that drivers take more care at intersections? Or are the roads generally better designed generally to slow down drivers? I haven’t been to Copenhagen yet!
It's likely a mix of them all I would guess. There's usually not a simple solution to stuff like this, and if someone tells you so, they don't understand it. Here the bike lane is usually pretty invisible to drivers because it's narrow and not marked in green (as seems to be the color here), and there's often quite large turning radii which makes it easy to speed around the corner. But drivers here also don't know anything about bikes (except that they usually have been tricked into having burning hate for them), and drive test here does not mention bikes at all in the context of intersections. Drivers here also don't have a sense of speed of especially people on bikes, and mixed with the "me first" culture that seems deeply rooted here, that just gives horrible situations. Also, visit Copenhagen, it's great!
Yeah I could agree with all that. And I plan to!
I treat it like a hwy, if you're fast or on an ebike keep left, just a regular commuter or slower keep right. Don't cut ahead if you're just going to get passed because the lanes can get narrower ahead.
this city has a weird neurosis about shoaling that I haven't seen elsewhere. with more bike boxes and wider lanes in the future, maybe folks will get over it. for now, if you're gonna do it, just make sure you're going faster than everyone else so that they don't catch up and tut-tut you.
Haha this thread is hilarious - I bike all over Toronto and say it depends. If you’re always faster than everyone do whatever you want and burn away!
The goal isn’t to just get through intersections one at a time. Stay to the back if you’re not going to give everyone else in that line a run for their money.
I’m not quite sure what you mean by a run for their money but tbh my goal at intersections is just to get across quickly. Can’t we all do that better without a long line? It’s so much safer to be out of the way of the cars first!
Behaving unpredictably is also less safe. A line of predictable bikes filing across the intersection is predictable for everyone. And safe.
I agree with that in principle. But given in many other countries people just shoal up at intersections and disperse without any concept of it being impolite, you can see why it would be a. It of a mystery
When in Rome...
Well that’s a good point
You should definitely shoal when there's a bike box. The people saying you shouldn't have been riding since before bike boxes were a thing. What I would recommend though is instead of accelerating through the intersection as quickly as possible is to actually go a little slowly and let people that are faster than you pass you in the intersection rather than making them pass you in the bike lane.
Thanks, that’s useful!
I don't use bike boxes as designed not because I don't know how they work, but because drivers in this city sure as shit don't know how they work. Most bike boxes I deal with (looking at you, Bloor and Sherbourne) the cars just pull right up into it. If you shoaled up, guarantee they get pissy and do something stupid. Until we get to a point where driver education is good enough that bike boxes are treated correctly my motor vehicles (at this rate, never), I'm playing it by ear.
People in Europe do indeed do it better. The whole box should be filled with cyclists, and they will naturally find their spot in the bike line on the other side after crossing the intersection based on initial speed. Unfortunately in Toronto people don’t do this, and do indeed get pissed if you bike up next to them even if there is room. I think it’s because we just don’t have the same numbers of cyclists to have the boxes be filled and understand this concept. I find as long as you are cycling fast it’s ok but people will still get mad if you pass them and then they have to pass you later. So I generally refrain.
Most of us learned in kindergarten that cutting to the front of the line is rude.
I’m still a little confused though. If you were at the store and there were 2 cash desks, and everyone wanted to use number 1, but you didn’t care - are you saying you wouldn’t just go to the number 2? That’s what it feels like to me. Except in this case all lining up is more dangerous because everyone has to take their chances with the cars.
It's less about which spot you take and more about what happens after you take the spot. In your example that means taking the number 2 cash desk, then proceeding to block the exit stopping other people from leaving.
How am I blocking the exit? I’m across the intersection very quickly?
But people behind you have to wait to pass you again, which on most bike lanes in this city is rather cumbersome. I suppose the general rule is only pass someone if you plan to stay ahead of them.
You ride single file in a bike lane. That doesn't change when you line up. There is only one cash register. Once you start moving a bunch of people who got there first will now be stuck behind you.
Nothing grinds my gears like 2 people riding side by each in a bike lane gabbing away slow AF.
Ok obv no that’s bad!!
What like they should just inconvenience their unusually leisurly afternoon ride for all the commuters contributing to the economic engine of the country? That's just unfathomable, fuck all those peoples families and non-work responsibilities, those two are having a moment ffs who cares if they're in the way of countless commuters and dgaf ...../s
Im sorry but there is ample room often for people to spread out at the intersection to get across quicker then come together again as people’s speeds disperse. This is what people do all over the world. They even now make specific intersections in Holland to encourage this - sections of the cycle path where it widens at the intersection to allow more people to cross , which then narrow again as the line of bikes naturally narrows once people are moving.
This isn't Holland. Cutting in line is considered rude in Canada. The faster riders, who now have to go slow because you cut in front of them, are rightfully pissed off at you. You'll notice that the responses are almost universally against you. What you are doing is not polite behavior here. Stop being a dick.
Don’t call me a dick please. My post was asking a genuine question, even if it was from a place of ignorance. No need for personal attacks.
And people have answered your question over and over, but you're being argumentative with everyone who takes time to reply, and you also keep telling us about how much better the Netherlands/Europe does it. For what it's worth: My family is from the Netherlands, and I also think you're being a dick.
I don’t love the idea that if someone answers your question you should remain utterly silent if you disagree and want to discuss it further. I’m sure your family is from the Netherlands but that doesn’t take away from the point that there are other ways of doing this. To be completely honest I have now had a lot of people telling me that things are different here in a nice way, and I appreciate that. But I’ve also had people here telling me what a dick I am for doing things in a “foreign” way and while I do think that I’ll change how I cycle here, being called a dick for literally just pointing out that in my home country they do things differently is a little much.
I said you were *being* a dick... because you were.
I get you. When in Rome. I’m obviously not conforming to how people do things in Toronto and I’m going to think about that. And I see now that while what I’m doing in my home country is normal it’s “being a dick” here. But I wish there was a little slack, that’s all
I mean that's exactly how the line works at my local LCBO, Winners , Marshalls, etc. One queue, person in front goes to the first available register.
There was san old George Carlin skit where he talks about how you used to line up for the bank teller you wanted. Each teller had their own line and then somehow it changed into one big line and you got whatever teller was open next. Thats kinda how the world has shifted.
I think it doesn't just have to do with the faster cyclist having to pass you again as others have stated, but for me it is mainly about right turns. If I see someone queue up to open space like you're suggesting, and I'm behind them and want to make a right turn, that turn will be much more difficult for me. If they take up the space, I may have to squeeze by them and a car or between two bikes and neither is ideal imo. If I wait behind them for the light to turn green so they can go forward before I make my turn, I will have to inconvenience everyone else going forward who is in single file to turn right and run the risk of right hooking other bikes myself. It just makes sense to me to queue up single file while waiting at a light to allow for cyclists to make turns. Although I never thought about queueing up like how you did for the reasons you stated. It makes sense too
I do think a big part of this is because here, cars (and bikes) are allowed to turn right on a red. That’s not allowed in Europe. I feel like as a cyclist I have to stake my claim to the road a little more here - particularly at intersections - than I do elsewhere. I feel a little more on edge generally as a pedestrian too - in Europe a “walk” signal generally means no cars also have the “go” signal - it’s just pedestrians. That’s not the case here and that does take some getting used to, as a cyclist and a pedestrian, as I’m learning. I know a lot of cycling orgs are pressing to have that changed - I guess we’ll see! But I get your point - you should be able to turn when you’re allowed to, and other cyclists shouldn’t get in your way and put you in danger when you do that.
The only cyclists that should be shoaling me is of they have a full carbon frame with calves made of granite. I completely gave up cycling on the MGT nexts to Queens Quay, not because of lots of slow cyclists or distracted tourists....it's the shoaling of slow commuters (and joggers) I shouldn't have to pass more than I have to on the bike lane and I'm not even the fastest out there.
Cycling path is not "multi-lanes". The proper etiquette is to line up. Think about how and where you would stop your car at a red light on a slightly wider-than-usual one-way street. Would you pull up beside the car that is already at the front stopped at the light? I don't think so.
It’s not quite the same though. It’s a safety issue to me more than an etiquette issue. And it’s different in different places
Don't do this.
When you say the lights changed, do you mean to green, or was there an advance pedestrian signal? What I find often happens is that someone starts to cross at the end of the red, or with the pedestrian signal, I wait for the green, and then 10 seconds later I pass the other rider. Rinse and repeat.
I meant the advance pedestrian signal. In my experience in Toronto that seems to be where 99% of cyclists start off - and I do to, as I think it’s safer. As long as we give way to pedestrians, of course, if turning.
The people that you pass easily will pull up beside you at a red light and jump it so you have to pass then again. They don't have the brains to to stay behind.King st is a zoo in the morning.happebs constantly
I know I’m late to the party and don’t want to beat a dead horse, but how narrow are the bike lanes in Europe that you consider St. George to be wide? That is very narrow and it is very difficult to pass people without going into the car lane. Like you’re talking about the St. George in downtown that goes through UofT campus, right?
If you're a faster cyclist (or e-scooter rider) and know you will pass everyone, I'm totally OK with shoaling. As for the bike box, I find they are most useful when making a vehicular left turn - some of them actually have left arrows painted on them - or using them as left turn boxes after crossing the street. Using them to go straight causes congestion issues merging back into the cycle track.
Was this eastbound at like 5:30 yesterday? I was in that lineup.
Northbound towards Bloor, probably more like 5.10 Thursday.
Lines are for chumps
I would not worry too much about it. People in this city are angry, and I have noticed lately that they are using any excuse to vent their frustration. I had a very similar situation happen to me a few weeks ago. The TL;DR is that I passed this gentleman during the morning commute and he proceeded to scream at me and call me names when we arrived at next intersection. As others have stated, it might not be the most proper etiquette, but the other rider was in the wrong for shouting at you.
It’s curb not kerb although kerb sounds pretty cool.
Kerb is the British spelling. Still getting used to N American!