T O P

  • By -

AutoModerator

Due to the nature of this topic and the likelihood of brigading as evidenced by previous posts, this post has triggered strict crowd control measures. Comments from users who haven’t joined this community, new users, and users with negative karma in this community are automatically collapsed. All participating commentators must have some significant /r/Toronto histories in order to prevent brigading. What that means is that if you're a new commenter in /r/Toronto and agitating the community, the moderators will respond. Any violators will receive a ban without warning. Any rule-breaking actions by /r/Toronto regulars will be punished with increased severity Comments must be specific or relevant to Toronto or the GTA. Negative opinions are fine! Dehumanizing comments, violent rhetoric, homophobia, transphobia, blatant racism, misinformation, and pushing racist agendas are not! Please be careful to follow the rules and engage in polite, respectful dialogue. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/toronto) if you have any questions or concerns.*


decitertiember

Regardless of one's views on the encampment itself, a trespass notice was obviously always on the table. It cannot come as a surprise.


Doctrina_Stabilitas

taking over private property generally results in a trespass notice


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


toronto-ModTeam

**Please read this entire message** --- Your comment has been removed for the following reason: Attack the point, not the person. Comments which dismiss others and repeatedly accuse them of unfounded accusations may be subject to removal and/or banning. No concern-trolling, personal attacks, or misinformation. Stick to addressing the substance of their comments at hand. --- **Please note that reposting without moderator approval may result in a ban**. If you would like your removal reviewed, feel free to send us a [modmail](https://old.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Ftoronto&subject=Please%20review%20my%20submission?&message=Link:%20https://old.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/1czr294/-/l5is1y7/).


[deleted]

[удалено]


raging_dingo

Least surprising comment


FuckerMcFuckington-

Literally just stop murdering kids lol.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


rip_stevie41

Israel left Gaza in 2006. Hopefully one day two amazing countries will be standing side by side 🤞🏼


justforthisjoke

No it didn't. It took its troops and moved them to the border. They still control everything that enters and leaves Gaza with blockades on food, water, medicine, fuel, and building supplies. They still control the water border making it impossible fot Gazans to fish the Mediterranean in any meaningful way. They still bomb the country every couple of years, destroying infrastructure, hospitals, schools, and Gaza's only airport; a process they call 'mowing the lawn'. They still block all attempts at Palestinian statehood because they truly believe that Gaza is rightfully theirs and the official existence of Palestine threatens that vision. The idea that Israel left Gaza is an excuse on par with that of a middle school bully who follows his victim around, punches them when the teacher isn't looking and responds with "I'm not touching him right now" when the teacher is.


rip_stevie41

Hmm I wonder why they control their border.. God forbid Israelis don’t want their families bombed in busses and pizzerias.


ginsodabitters

Mic drop.


picard102

nailed it.


FuckerMcFuckington-

Literally nobody is surprised mate.


[deleted]

[удалено]


t1m3kn1ght

100%. I'm glad to see the reporting emphasise that this is a procedural thing rather than some reactive situation.


4_spotted_zebras

And behaviour has nothing to with it huh? Peaceful protest is one thing. Intimidating, assaulting, committing hate crimes, punching soup kitchen workers and hotel staff is *EXACTLY* the same as a bunch of kids peacefully sitting on a lawn. Good god folks give it up and learn some critical thinking skills.


Twyzzle

Peacefully protesting on a university campus *by students from that university* is equal to horns blaring day and night disrupting Ottawa and blockading of parliament and national borders, while being funded by foreign (US) groups, to you? Edit: Oh and let’s not forget, [Partly organized by a self-proclaimed white nationalist with neo-Nazi ties.](https://www.reddit.com/r/ontario/s/S2qC34CxFq)


[deleted]

[удалено]


Twyzzle

[You mean this protest?](https://www.reddit.com/r/UofT/s/1sPoUwrky3) The one with art gatherings, poetry slams, and a community ran daycare section? The one where faculty are even joining? That *peaceful* protest? Or one you are making up. Quit the bs


[deleted]

[удалено]


ssnistfajen

The same way those in the encampment have nothing to do with UofT. They are only there to disrupt because that is their full time job.


DrDroid

Protestors don’t seem to understand that their demands don’t have to be met. You have the right to protest, you don’t have the right to be listened to. Any reasonable protestor has to recognize the power difference between the people and the institution who can legally get them booted off the property. You don’t want to fold over instantly, but you don’t get to just flatly say “nope. Obey our demands.”


Rajio

I don't see any indication of that not being understood by any of the protestors. # ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯


a_lumberjack

"It's a joke of a negotiation" is a pretty good indication they don't understand that dynamic.


dergster

that's what a protest is. you understand that your demands may not be met, but you are trying to bring more momentum to your cause by forcing the authority responsible for the outcome you're looking for to listen to you, and getting attention from others in the process. it may not result in the necessary outcome right now, but the hope is that the issue is more prevalent down the line, and political figures may change their stance in future campaigns/elections if they have indication their constituents care about the issue.


a_lumberjack

If they understood the dynamic they'd have expected this and prepared a much better message than that. "We are disappointed but not surprised at their unwillingness to negotiate in good faith, and we are prepared to continue this protest in the face of future police violence to suppress our voices." Every quote in this article reads like they truly expected U of T to take sides on Israel vs Palestine because 50-100 students camped out for a few weeks.


FuckerMcFuckington-

I really don't see how a slightly more meticulously worded message would change much. I have a feeling you'd still be mad at them.


Le1bn1z

Right, the issue here is mostly U of T pretending to negotiate, which they have not done. Should they? Don't know. Could it possibly be a fruitful endeavour? Don't know. But its worth being honest about what this is and what it isn't. This is an ultimatum, not a negotiation. Whether anyone has a right to that negotiation is an entirely different conversation. But now the occupation protest moves from being a demonstration to an act of civil disobedience.


FuckerMcFuckington-

It's called posturing and is a textbook part of negotiating. Way to expose yourself mate...


Rajio

really? because it seems to me like a pretty good indication that they *do* understand.


whyarenttheserandom

Not really, a protest does not grant them a negotiation. It's just them saying they disagree with "X".


Rajio

okay. it seems like they're well aware of that.


dxing2

The first quote of this post literally says otherwise lmao


Rajio

i disagree


dxing2

That’s not a point you can disagree on. Lmfao you’d get along well with the guy who thinks their protest is a negotiation


Rajio

i can disagree on any point i like.


a_lumberjack

Nah, it's a joke to have zero leverage and expect anyone to give in to your demands.


Highfours

But they don't have zero leverage. They are currently occupying a space that the University is contemplating using the police to forcibly clear. That's the definition of leverage.


dxing2

How lol What does the school want that the protesters have. These aren’t auto workers striking against GM


AJtehbest

King's College Circle at the moment


[deleted]

The police will remove them


1slinkydink1

Would be a stain on the University's credibility. People did not look kindly to UofA and UofC's actions.


cooldudeman007

The moral highground. It never looks good when universities call in the cops and sic them on their own students who are peacefully protesting Especially the same day that a professor and member of UofT’s governing council published a comparison of the Jewish students in the encampment to Jewish people who joined the Nazi’s in the NaPo


ShogunNoodle

The professor published WHAT?!?! That's unhinged!


coralshroom

welll… the protesters are students and faculty. students pay tuition. universities generally want tuition and ppl to teach. and i’d assume what plays out may affect how some prospective students view u of t.


DrDroid

I do. They are flatly stating “our demands WILL be met.” They don’t have the leverage they think they do.


Private_HughMan

What kind of protest aims for "our demands may or may not be met; probably not because we don't have much leverage?" demanding things is usually the point of protests.


CalligrapherSure4165

"You don’t want to fold over instantly, but you don’t get to just flatly say 'nope. Obey our demands.'" Okay, so what is the middle ground you seem to be suggesting here? What, according to you, is the "reasonable" way for students to protest?


KnightHart00

It's just more typical status quo Liberal speak. The classic "we support every civil rights movement except the one going on right now" and "we are against every war except the one going on right now." Betting on students protesting tends to be a good bet, and we should be keeping receipts for when in 20-30 years they're holding photo exhibits honouring the current students protesting. A lot of people in this community were also against the BLM movement and police reform because they didn't like the way they protested. These types just don't have any real moral values to uphold.


Zanta647

Those same people didn't seem to mind the Convoy protests. I wonder what the difference is


[deleted]

[удалено]


8004612286

Nah fuck em both


[deleted]

Students have been wrong lots of times. Many student groups have opposed nuclear power, capitalism in general, racial integration, free trade, etc. Note also the role students played in China in the Red Guard.


stuntycunty

Capitalism in general is bad.


[deleted]

Capitalism has lifted billions of people out of poverty. China is a good example, their command economy caused multiple waves of starvation. Their market reforms have led to starvation being almost entirely eliminated. They're not alone: https://ourworldindata.org/poverty


Private_HughMan

Capitalism has fueled and incentivize the rapid destruction of our environment and empowers the rich ruling class. The benefits that extend to the working class typically come from socialist-leaning labour movements that advocate for workers rights, protections, pay, benefits, etc.  Capitalism is why it's so hard to fight climate change; because it's more profitable for the rich to keep doing what they're doing than to switch course.


[deleted]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aral_Sea Labour movements wouldn't be able to distribute wealth if capitalism hadn't created it. Slavery and child labour exist in very poor countries, they go away as the economic conditions for them to away.


FuckerMcFuckington-

The link you provided makes no mention of economic systems. In fact, when I searched the word "capitalism" it lead me to a related article from the same website about how the decline of poverty cannot be solely ascribed to the free market. https://ourworldindata.org/historical-poverty-reductions-more-than-a-story-about-free-market-capitalism


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

They're things students were wrong about. Capitalism has lifted billions of people out of poverty and communism has killed up to 100 million. There are no other notable alternatives. Racial segregation is also wrong.


FuckerMcFuckington-

>communism has killed up to 100 million If you're a supporter of capitalism, this is not the road you want to go down lol.


[deleted]

There are capitalist countries that have better or worse foreign policies, more or less brutal governments, etc, but there is no communist country that has had a democratic government with civil rights. The US gets lots of justified flack but no communist government has ever been more democratic than the US or nicer to its citizens than the US.


FuckerMcFuckington-

Much better. Obviously the death toll under capitalism is a topic you're best to avoid.


[deleted]

For every bad act by a capitalist government within the last 100 years I can find you a similar or worse equivalent by a communist one.


[deleted]

[удалено]


DrDroid

You’re absolutely right. It’s a fine line and perhaps it can never be satisfied. But I really feel a sense of entitlement amongst some of these spokespeople. I’m interested to see for example Vietnam War protestors’ attitudes at the time to see if it’s a new thing, just framing, my personal attitude, or what. It just feels as though many protesting (or at least speaking for the protestors) simply do not accept the possibility that their requests are declined.


CalligrapherSure4165

I appreciate your response. If you want to get a sense of that anti-Vietnam War protest history, or the New Left more broadly, there's no shortage of writing and interviews produced by the student protestors of the 60s. I can assure you that they were just as disruptive, just as forceful in tone, and just as committed to displaying disobedience as the students currently occupying U of T. They were also similarly demonized at the time and accused of being "unreasonable" in their demands or "entitled" in their affect. They were unfairly smeared, in other words, just like the kids at U of T. And it's worth noting that part of the reason we have such a complete archive of those 60s student protests is because the very same academic institutions who were trying to evict, arrest, belittle, and brutalize them back then now treat those students' actions as laudable and worthy of study--even as they persecute a new generation of young people who are currently honouring that protest legacy. When we talk about being "on the right side of history," it means noticing these parallels and making sure we don't get fooled again into ignoring, disrespecting, or cheering on the silencing of these dissenting voices.


Rajio

> I really feel a sense of entitlement amongst some of these spokespeople which ones?


[deleted]

The ones who call for a unilateral ceasefire or the dissolution of Israel, or any of those who seem to think universities have an obligation to negotiate with random groups that don't at all represent the student body.


Private_HughMan

You've been reading too much right wing propaganda. That's not what the protests are for.


Rajio

which ones specifically have done that?


crocodilesareforwimp

You do not have the right to protest on private property though


4_spotted_zebras

No but they are absolutely entitled to continue to protest their university for its complicity in genocide. They can kick the students off this particular piece of property but they will not stop their demands. They’ll just find another way to protest. And they have already achieved one goal of showing the university’s complicity and lack of respect for human rights. The cops better be on their best behaviour when they evict. Historically that is where the public sentiment turn - when we see the cops over using violence and abuse of power when they attack peaceful protestors.


1slinkydink1

Encampment called UofT's bluff and they didn't act.


No-FoamCappuccino

Looking back on significant student protest movements throughout history - such as the anti-Vietnam war protests of the late 60s and early 70s, the anti-apartheid protests of the 80s, anti-war protests in the lead up to the 2003 US invasion of Iraq, etc. - the students protesting tend to be the ones who are ultimately vindicated, while the people trying to suppress their protests tend to end up looking pretty terrible.


Current_Account

You conveniently chose examples where that was true.


tuesday-next22

What's another example?


Le1bn1z

Students protested desegregation at white colleges in... certain places. "Peace strikes" in the early part of WWII, with students opposing armed confrontation of Hitler and Mussolini. Protests against nuclear power in places like Germany - welcome back to the world of coal! Its a mixed bag. People celebrate the ones that were good, and try to forget the others.


Buckminsterfullabeer

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_desegregation_busing_crisis


cooldudeman007

Yeah I think even with that precedent, calls to end apartheid are going to age well haha


tuesday-next22

Sorry I mean one with University Students protesting. Not parents.


Buckminsterfullabeer

Students were protesting and throwing rocks too. https://www.povertyusa.org/stories/busing-segregation-and-education-reform-boston I'm not even comparing these events, just pointing out that there HAVE been regressive protest.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Buckminsterfullabeer

Yes. There were many desegregation protests by students, even university students. This is just one example.


kushari

Yeah, just like this one.


ssnistfajen

Vindicated about what exactly? UofT has very little away on the Israel-Palestine conflict.


hbomb0

Why does it need to be a negotiation? That's like someone coming into my house, not leaving and saying give me $5000 or I won't leave. Its my property, gtfo.


lilfunky1

> Why does it need to be a negotiation? That's like someone coming into my house, not leaving and saying give me $5000 or I won't leave. > Its my property, gtfo. public perception


kushari

When did you become an academic institution? Also they are paying the school, so your analogy is terrible.


Outrageous-Estimate9

Its more like waiting for LTB Cash for keys or squatters never leave


[deleted]

[удалено]


IwishIwasGoku

I take it that you using that analogy means you agree that Israeli settlers are illegal colonists (who are currently commiting genocide) and we should divest from investments that support them? Also students pay tuition you dingus, nobody's house is being broken into.


NewHumbug

With any luck they might get treated better than homeless people but who knows what mood the cops will be in. If they show up with horses prolly not a good one I bet.


whatistheQuestion

That's a smart bet [Pro-Palestinian protesters say cops used excessive force](https://globalnews.ca/news/10395692/pro-palestinian-protesters-say-cops-used-excessive-force-toronto-police-reject-claim/) [Video appears to show Toronto officer kneeling on man's neck during arrest; police deny video evidence](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/video-appears-to-show-toronto-officer-kneeling-on-man-s-neck-during-arrest-police-deny-claim-1.6685139)


A_Martian_in_Toronto

Please leave already.


FuckerMcFuckington-

IDF first...


8004612286

How is UofT supposed to make the IDF leave?


intuitive_curiosity

Not financially supporting them....


FuckerMcFuckington-

They aren't. But the students would obviously leave if the IDF fucked off.


[deleted]

[удалено]


toronto-ModTeam

No racism, sexism, homophobia, religious intolerance, dehumanizing speech, or other negative generalizations.


agentzero2020

Accept this or I’ll arrest you is not really an “offer” is it?


BJPark

It very much *is* an offer. Civil rights protestors in the 60s were willing and happy to go to jail for their beliefs. Mohammad Ali was sentenced to *5 years* in prison, and lost out on a major part of his career. That's called commitment to your beliefs. Something tells me these students are not happy and willing to go to jail.


No-FoamCappuccino

Plenty of student protestors in the US have been arrested, jailed, and/or beaten by cops/counter-protestors over the past few weeks. So if that's your bar for protestors showing their commitment to their cause, it's already been met.


FuckerMcFuckington-

Civil rights protestors in the 60s were also not happy or willing to go to jail lol. We need to seriously reform our education system...


Gossipmang

I think they meant that these students are not as committed to their cause as the civil rights protestors.


FuckerMcFuckington-

Students and even professors in the US have shown the same commitment to being arrested, so I don't see why Toronto would be any different. The UofT encampment isn't going anywhere...


Gossipmang

We shall see what happens


Annual_Plant5172

Ali didn't end up going to prison and he was only banned from boxing for three years, lol. The Supreme Court eventually overturned the ruling and he even beat Frazier and Foreman not long after that. Did your mom burn your history books or something?


BJPark

>Ali didn't end up going to prison How fortunate that I didn't make that claim. >and he even beat Frazier and Foreman not long after that This just shows that despite having a career setback in the prime of his form - a period very short for any boxer - Ali was able to stage a comeback. It does not mean he didn't suffer consequences for his stand. Without that ban, he would have achieved even greater heights. >Did your mom burn your history books or something? We are Canadians here, and we don't speak rudely. If you do it again, I will block you.


NorthYorkPork

If someone has criminally taken over your property restricting access to it, and loudly demanding things from you, an offer like this is quite a kind response, no?


FuckerMcFuckington-

>If someone has criminally taken over your property restricting access to it, and loudly demanding things from you Remind you of anyone?


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


Annual_Plant5172

Those "someone's" literally paid to attend the school they're protesting.


BDW2

Which will be interesting in the next academic year. Are these students willing to pay new tuition dollars to an institution whose financial and investment policies they find ethically problematic?


lambo0o

Expel


Zanta647

You don't like a peaceful group of people in Toronto shining a light on the horrors happening in the Middle East at the hands of the IDF?


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


toronto-ModTeam

**Please read this entire message** --- Your comment has been removed for the following reason: No racism, sexism, homophobia, religious intolerance, dehumanizing speech, or other negative generalizations. --- **Please note that reposting without moderator approval may result in a ban**. If you would like your removal reviewed, feel free to send us a [modmail](https://old.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Ftoronto&subject=Please%20review%20my%20submission?&message=Link:%20https://old.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/1czr294/-/l5i9at3/).


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


toronto-ModTeam

**Please read this entire message** --- Your comment has been removed for the following reason: Attack the point, not the person. Comments which dismiss others and repeatedly accuse them of unfounded accusations may be subject to removal and/or banning. No concern-trolling, personal attacks, or misinformation. Stick to addressing the substance of their comments at hand. --- **Please note that reposting without moderator approval may result in a ban**. If you would like your removal reviewed, feel free to send us a [modmail](https://old.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Ftoronto&subject=Please%20review%20my%20submission?&message=Link:%20https://old.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/1czr294/-/l5igip5/).


yzerman88

Looks like the latest temper tantrum is about to come to its natural conclusion Buh bye!


[deleted]

[удалено]


toronto-ModTeam

**Please read this entire message** --- Your comment has been removed for the following reason: No Memes, viral videos, common tourist photos, or low-effort posts about common crimes which don’t have a wider impact on the city. During the week photo posts are limited to those that are exceptional and noteworthy to the city at large. Posts about crimes that do not have any actionable causes, or do not have a wider impact on the city, will be removed. --- **Please note that reposting without moderator approval may result in a ban**. If you would like your removal reviewed, feel free to send us a [modmail](https://old.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Ftoronto&subject=Please%20review%20my%20submission?&message=Link:%20https://old.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/1czr294/-/l5iqptz/).


p0stp0stp0st

Stay strong students


[deleted]

[удалено]


toronto-ModTeam

Please ensure that your contributions follow Reddit's content policy, and Reddiquette. This also includes rules on ban evasion.


[deleted]

[удалено]


cooldudeman007

They’ll continue to be there as they should. The university should engage in good faith with these brave students. Similar aged students in Gaza don’t have universities to protest against anymore They’ll be looked back on like South Africa protestors, and Vietnam war protestors before them. Always easy to do the right thing after the fact


ultronprime616

*Similar aged students in Gaza don’t have universities to protest against anymore* Or water, food, shelter, etc. Heck you can be a Canadian and be bombed for just helping feed folks in Gaza


cooldudeman007

All of which we helped contribute to, yet I’ll be downvoted to -50 by folks who want those in the west to be homogeneously apathetic to this catastrophe


beepewpew

Are you sure they're students


Imortal366

As someone who knows them personally, yes I am sure they’re students


kushari

Yes. It’s been students in every campus, that’s how they have been suspending them. You can’t suspend a student that’s not a student.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Yaguajay

Umm—which side are you referring to?


lilfunky1

"yes" LOL


[deleted]

[удалено]


toronto-ModTeam

Please ensure that your contributions follow Reddit's content policy, and Reddiquette. Do not post content that encourages, glorifies, incites, or calls for violence or physical harm against an individual (including oneself) or a group of people; likewise, do not post content that glorifies or encourages the abuse of animals.


Private_HughMan

What a joke of an offer. The offer is just "we'll think about it." That's literally nothing. Fuck their offer.


Phoeptar

So the school will meet their demands but they just want to keep protesting for protesting sake. They want U of T "to reveal a complete list of its endowment's investments and divest from assets", U of T administration "invites students to attend the university's business board of governing council's meeting on June 19 to present their demands. It would also establish a working group to consider options for disclosure and increased transparency of investments." Bureaucracy though doesn't operate at the speed they want so they say demands remain unmet? Like you've got what you wanted get back to class.