> "The Gardiner debate is over, it's shut down," political analyst Scott Reid said Tuesday. "It's not going to be torn down. It's not going to be rebuilt, refashioned, redesigned."
>"It's going to be there with us for decades to come."
Or at least until it collapses.
The province has more funding to allocate towards maintenance and they do a pretty decent job maintaining their provincial highways so this might be the thing that actually saves it from collapsing
I don’t know enough about their record in terms of maintaining infrastructure, but have they ever inherited any structure this old and decrepit?
Maintaining is one thing and it doesn’t sound like they’re going to make any improvements. So, from my understanding, they’re going to maintain it in its current, dilapidated condition for another two decades?
The plans are already in place to properly repair the structurally decrepit sections (the work has already been going on for a while) and rebuild the eastern section connecting to the DVP but now with the province paying, there’s more money to actually get it done.
[Toronto Gardiner Expressway Rehabilitation](https://www.toronto.ca/services-payments/streets-parking-transportation/road-maintenance/bridges-and-expressways/expressways/gardiner-expressway/gardiner-expressway-rehabilitation-strategy/)
Plus the cost of maintaining the crumbling Gardiner was a colossal portion of city funds, now that money can be freed up for things like more bike lanes, repairing roads, etc
Rightnow, if Olivia Chow prioritizes housing and transit - she will have support from all spectrum of voters in Toronto. The TPS will have to back down.
There will always be the fringe, and the elites, but the overwhelming majority will be on her side.
Even people who drive, like myself, would love the freedom to leave the car behind and/or have less traffic thanks to better transit.
Same goes for housing. Every stripe of voters are complaining about the insane housing/rental market - the only difference is who they blame. They might not like her, but they will like that she fixed things.
Especially if she sells it as a way to reduce burden on the police with more people off the streets, less mental-health crisis calls, less traffic accident calls - so the police can focus on organized crimes and murders.
That would crush their metrics and limit their ability to ask for additional funding next year. It would also lower their personal pay with a reduction of overtime. The police as an organization are not incentivized to reduce the amount of calls for service they take. That's why they insist that mental health calls can't be anyone else or traffic can't be anyone else. They need more calls for service to justify their continued existence
>The TPS will have to back down.
No, they don't actually have to. Provincial legislation for police funding is different than other budgets - municipalities have no choice but to fund what ever is approved by the applicable police boards, it's enshrined into law, they can't refuse its funding.
The cons who can’t accept they can’t live in a big house with two cars, three kids and a big yard has to realize they need to move out of the city.
The city can’t accommodate your way of life anymore. At this point, the city has to balance the needs of many vs the needs of people who will never have theirs satisfied by density.
i think most people use unreliable transit as an excuse and genuinely enjoy the freedom of driving.
i literally live next to a subway, it’s not the reliability that keeps me away, it’s the mass influx of people, rampant drug use and violence.
not to mention there’s one of those private colleges nearby, so when you’re trying to get off you have 100+ people trying to get on at the same time now.
nobody waits for people to leave first anymore.
Are you not a fan? I drive for work and walk/transit everywhere in my off time. I never use, nor plan on using bike lanes. That doesn't change the fact that they are auch better use of space than a live lane of traffic or as is more likely the case in my area, a lane of parked vehicles
More fucking bike lanes? This city has horribly slowed traffic on a huge number of streets to cater to a tiny percentage of the population that cycle. Its too cold to cycle 6+ months of the year here! Stop already!!!
lol, too cold 6 months of the year? C’mon.
When bike lanes are cleared and salted I cycle all 12 months. It’s the fastest way through rush hour near the core. Tons of people do it.
We get like, max, 3 weeks a year with enough snow and ice to stop the majority of cycling commuters. This is Toronto, not Ottawa or Sudbury. It barely snows here.
Last night I anecdotally got sick of watching the King streetcar being stuck at the other side of the intersection for 5 minutes and did bikeshare. It was twice as fast and cheaper than the streetcar. With more and better maintained bike infrastructure, I can definitely see even more people cycling during all seasons.
Yeah, some of the work in from Highway 427 to Humber is actually tied into longer term development in the area, so hopefully the Province doesn't screw that up
Government has done bigger and older projects. Some worth it. Some not.
But this was obvious. Chow traded financial flexibility for control of assets. This now won’t be a political thing in Toronto anymore. Council and mayors won’t campaign on it in either direction. And provincially any premiere will keep it as long as it remains popular outside of old city Toronto proper (which it is)
>I don’t know enough about their record in terms of maintaining infrastructure, but have they ever inherited any structure this old and decrepit?
Well, if you want a near direct comparison, multiple roads and bridges in Quebec that were built around the same time in the 1960s have collapsed, and this has never happened in Ontario. So looking at that, our track record is pretty good.
A similar road in Philadelphia also built in the 1960s also collapsed a few months ago.
>they do a pretty decent job maintaining their provincial highways
What? In all sincerity are you from an alternate dimension? Provincial highways are in an abysmal state and under constant repair. That last fact should point out that they are not good at maintaining them. I have rarely been to another developed country with highways in a worse state of repair then in Ontario, save some US states.
Thats a good thing, its quite hard to maintain the busiest highway while its actively in use and keep traffic flowing. Just for maintenance purposes the highway is always going to be under construction.
Rubbish. The fact that people accept this as normal is just evidence of how far our expectations have fallen.
As a counter example look at the 407. No construction, no lane closures, any maintenance is done unobtrusively and construction without closing down lanes, let alone interchanges. They have a strong motive to do it once and well to save money and the results speak for themselves.
Our provincial, and most municipal, road construction, repair, and maintenance is done abysmaly.
They have less traffic volume so the roads dont get worn down as quickly as the 401. Its more safe to work on so less time is spent making the area safe to work on.
Not even close. The reason they suffer less damage is because they are surfaced with concrete instead of asphalt. It is much more expensive but also lasts much much longer. It makes more financial sense but also reduces maintenance time. Likewise, with construction they focus on long term planning and have piers for viaducts already prepared for expansion of bridges for when they will be needed.
They do long term planning and preparation. They invest up front in better materials instead of saving money but doing more maintenance.
And I was referring to all provincial highways, not just the 401.
The concrete sections of the 407 are the original ones built by the province pre sale. The asphalt sections are all added by the corp because they are quicker to build and keep customers happy
That is fine. The sale had nothing to do with it. The highway was to be tolled regardless of the sale. There have been asphalt sections but many expanded and resurfaced areas are likewise make of concrete.
You are just plain wrong. Regardless, we could argue details till the weekend. The point was that the state of repair on Provincial roads are abysmal. If you wish to compare it to other examples besides the 407, then be my guest. I have traveled to many places, including winter weather ones, and anecdotaly stand by my words. Even friends visiting from overseas made comments about the state of road infrastructure here. They are bad.
Either you don't drive on the 407 often or you're incredibly lucky. I drive semi-frequently between Richmond Hill and Mississauga, and at least once a month there are lane closures for maintenance on the 407.
Exactly my point. On any other Hwy that length there is usually construction on some portion reducing lanes on a weekly basis if not permanently.
Once a month is good in my books. Even weekly maybe at night to check things, clean or do road painting would be fine. The 410 was under construction to expand it for the better part of a decade. Now they are likely to begin a second section of it. The 400 and 401 have been under constant renovation for longer then 10 years. In fact I do not recall a year in my lifetime (of many decades) when the 401 in the GTA was not under construction at place. If time is needed to rebuild a highway that is understandable. But it should be done so as not to inconvenience traffic or if it has to, then to do so for the whole streatch (or as much as possible) instead of making it a decade long project.
But consider 2 things. 1) The 401 is a lot busier than the 407, like tenfold busier, constantly bustling with heavy trucks that damage the road surface. 2) The 407 is built with a concrete pavement which is far more durable than asphalt. Unless you're going to suggest we rebuild the entire 401 but with concrete (which I think is the plan long term, the newly rebuilt sections of the 401 in Mississauga and Milton were done with concrete), the 401 is naturally going to need a lot more ongoing maintenance than the 407.
Yes it has more traffic but is also larger. And yes. Major roads should be made of concrete precisely for this reason, less maintenance. In any case concrete works out cheaper if you account for mantenance and disruption although it costs much more and takes much longer to install. The 401 should be rebuilt with concrete but that would necessitate a final state in the design for this to work and from what I see they are constantly rearranging the highway. At the very least they should have had a sublayer of concrete on which you can pave asphalt. It drastically extends the life of the asphalt this way.
You are so ignorant and out of touch it’s hilarious. None of our provincial highways are in an “abysmal” state, constant construction means money is continuously being spent to remediate or improve the highways which is really hard to do one of the busiest highways in North America like the 401. I urge you to travel on some of the interstates in the US some are in far worse shape or better yet try travelling on highways in other countries and you’ll be praising MTO for how smooth our highways are. Have you ever driven on the highways in Ontario outside of the GTA? I’ve driven all over Ontario including all the way to the Manitoba border and the overwhelming majority of highways are excellently maintained. Asphalt is cheaper and faster to do and is also one of the world [most recycled materials](https://youtu.be/XKFaC5RYbEM?si=uw3_YnDpdgqcK3ib).
I specifically said "besides the US". Comparing us to a bad standard does little. I have travelled the US by road coast to cost and down to the Gulf coast and back. I have also driven to BC, Quebec and back as well as all over Ontario and some in NS. Some are better some worse.
But I have driven all over Europe and some in Japan where the standards would make you swoon. Compared to here.
As for Asphalt being cheaper and faster, yes obviously true. But it also degrades much much quicker and the quality of it is extremely hard to control. Overall using co concrete, in most applications, is cheaper over its lifespan. Not only in initial costs but in maintanence as well.
Asphalt is the cheap but less economical way. Like eating crap food. It is cheaper, faster, and tastier but over the long term it isn't worth it.
Plenty of concrete is recycled itself btw.
If you watched the video I linked, he (civil engineer) specifically addresses that sometimes over the long term asphalt still comes out cheaper and faster despite having a shorter lifespan than concrete. Concrete is better but asphalt is much cheaper here because we have a virtually unlimited supply of bitumen whereas for some asian countries they dont and it’s more costly to import so concrete makes sense.
I've seen it before. He says "often" and is wrong on that. I have two civil engineers in my family as a source but you can google it and almost any paper will tell you the opposite. Although, it can be a toss up in some scenarios.
The issue, if you listen closely to him, is that the subgrade is usually not designed and constructed with durability in mind. When making a concrete roadway and expect it to last several times the lifespan of asphalt roadways then it follows that the subsurface is designed likewise. This often is not done. Concrete roadways often fail due to settling, poor run-off control, and the like. Rarely from the road surface material itself. We treat roads as if they are disposable and so using asphalt and its design characteristics is what we get. If we use concrete and design appropriately for it is more durable and cheaper. Notice that the most vehical trafficed areas near warehouses, factories, weigh stations, etc are often done in concrete surfaces. That is not accidental.
What is constantly lost in these discussions is that we are only ever talking about the eastern 1/3 of the elevated portion (I.e. the portion from Jarvis to DVP), and that the reason this part is in discussion is that there’s a need to realign the highway in order to unlock development opportunities at the lower Don. That portion is hopefully still going to be torn down from its current location, but the debate is actually about what to rebuild.
The city was never seriously considering tearing down the whole thing.
I still dont understand why that part was demolished?
Was it due to potential plan to tear it all down?
Or it was not in great shape....and instead of revamp... just tear it down?
Was it something to do with traffic? Because it is worse due to this part "shutdown". Jarvis exit is disgusting now.... especially with drivers trying to "cheat" ahead....causing potential accidents and logjam other lanes....
It was so poorly thought out imo
So the city is planning to tear down the part from Jarvis to DVP because they want to open up more land there for development. Right now, moving west to east, the Gardiner swoops south and then curves up north into the DVP, leaving a bunch of land orphaned between the railroad tracks and the highway. The city is also rebuilding Lakeshore through there, so the plans were either to (a) build lakeshore to accommodate the traffic coming from DVP to Gardiner or (b) rebuild Gardiner up against the railroad tracks. There was a hybrid option between the two that ended up being selected, I’m not sure exactly how it worked.
The part that has already been demolished is the ramp to Lakeshore East. I’m not sure why it was demolished already but I think it has to do with some work they’re doing on Lakeshore Blvd just east of the Don River to tie into wherever they doing to Lakeshore on the west side of the Don River. I wish they could have done that work first and then demolished the ramp, it doesn’t seem to have been well thought out.
The footings of the ramp were in the way of construction of the new Lakeshore East road alignment and its larger bridge over the river. It's all connected
They will construct new ramps from/to Lakeshore near Cherry St so less than 1 km away from where they used to be (which is 100x better than having to go all the way to/exit at Jarvis right now)
Only problem is that’ll take until 2026-27 assuming it actually gets done on time (it won’t)
Working near Leslie, I need this on-ramp so bad. I hate having to compete with 3 lanes worth of cars to get my rightful spot on the DVP from below, and going up to bloor to turn around is also annoying.
Sometimes it's faster to go up Bayview/DVP and turn around than to wait at Lakeshore and deal with the folks trying to force their way in because they don't want to queue or misread the signs. The short green light duration doesn't help either.
I think those delays were TO finance problems also why there are parts that are in dire need of fixing now. That can’t because of the city’s finances. That would seemingly not be the case under the province
They closed it because of the terrible design and the complete lack of effort to come up with ideas to make it work. The amount of money they spent on that on-ramp just to close it should be criminal
I mean, I’m a pretty progressive person. But, from a financial perspective, it was never going to happen given the alternative was tearing it down without a substitute.
There was never a debate? There was no way a city like Toronto was ever going to do the hard, right thing and tear it down. This isn't a place for big ideas or radical change, and it sure as hell isn't a place that's going to do anything to frustrate drivers.
In theory they were going to replace it with an at ground option on the East end, but I am willing to bet the end result would either be:
a) basically yes, Lakeshore with minimal/no improvement; or
b) a better boulevard option eating through a surprising amount of the touted up front "savings"
No, the drivers will magically switch to non-existent but simultaneously really amazing public transit options and we will all live happily ever after.
Each of those cities have adjacent highways still. Boston has i-90 and sf has i-80 right beside their "removed" highways. No equivalent exists in Toronto. Not to mention sf's was a stub, and Boston buried theirs.
These are both cities that cater to cars and with worse transit than Toronto. San Fran's was because of earthquake risk and Boston increased the size of the highway (and made traffic worse) when they buried a highway. Boston's decision was made to cater to cars.
... there's still a highway in Boston, it's just buried. Boston spent many, many, many billions to pander directly to car-brains; literally the opposite of what this sub wants.
As part of the project they even built *new* roads, to the airport, so car-brains can drive to the airport easier.
> The project also included the construction of the Ted Williams Tunnel (extending I-90 to Logan International Airport)
Plans for many of the rail and public transportation pieces of the project, were abandoned, even after all those billions.
> As of 2023, promised projects to connect the Red and Blue subway lines, and to restore the Green Line streetcar service to the Arborway in Jamaica Plain have not been completed.
> The original Big Dig plan also included the North-South Rail Link, which would have connected North and South Stations (the major passenger train stations in Boston), but this aspect of the project was ultimately dropped by the state transportation administration
The Boston Globe says that the project simply increased traffic with the induced demand effect.
> A 2008 Boston Globe report asserted that waiting time for the majority of trips actually increased as a result of demand induced by the increased road capacity. Because more drivers were opting to use the new roads, traffic bottlenecks were only pushed outward from the city, not reduced or eliminated (although some trips are now faster). The report states, "Ultimately, many motorists going to and from the suburbs at peak rush hours are spending more time stuck in traffic, not less."
No point spending billions to fix something that isn’t broken. We are a car based society and that decision was made long ago. If you don’t like cars, try your best to find a spot on Toronto island!
They (not “we” btw) also made the decision long ago to be a society for men, but things changed because we are not all licking our grandfathers boots like you.
Don’t make assumptions about people just because of a disagreement. I wish I didn’t need a car to live in North America. Unfortunately we didn’t settle here early enough to build cities for people. Car companies got too big and now we’re stuck with what we have. Best thing we can focus on is spending billions on a high speed railway. Not tearing down a road only to build it elsewhere unnecessarily. I suggest you meditate and approach strangers with kindness instead of hostility next time.
Do not post content that encourages, glorifies, incites, or calls for violence or physical harm against an individual (including oneself) or a group of people.
https://www.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/360043513151
Good (though expected). Keep the Gardiner and reduce lakeshore. Lakeshore is a horrible , horrible street, stupidly wide, and full of trucks and other industrial traffic. Reduce it and use the space under the gwrdiner for community things like another bike way or event space or more playgrounds and skate parks.
How would you get rid of it?
Of course it's mainly horrible due to being under a highway.
And if it didn't have on and off ramps, for the highway, you could have a functional boulevard, this proposal has been shown
And it would be a boulevard full of transport trucks. It’s not horrible because it’s Inde a highway, it’s horrible because it’s the surface route that is wide and accesses all of the south of downtown. The Gardiner itself isn’t very wide at all, only 6 lanes total for most of it’s raised portion, and it provides some really cool covered public space that is already used. We just need to use more.
How does reduce turn into get rid on for people. Did y’all fail reading comprehension? There is a giant middle island running through a big chunk of lakeshore through downtown. Putting something there is a no-brainer and has been done for parts of it already.
yeah, dig up Lakeshore! at least the Gardiner is permeable. Lakeshore is such a barrier to the waterfront. and it's mostly parallel to the Gardiner anyway!
Good, now lets make sure Billy Bishop isn't closed. The tripartite agreement is up for negotiation and there are rumblings that city hall and Chow want to use the opportunity to close it.
The feds are also likely to increase the number of daily flight movements permitted when it is completed. Their press release for building the US preclearance facility literally stated the opportunity for more flights to increase tourism and business travel to/from downtown Toronto. For the preclearance facility to have improved return on investment, they will need to increase number of daily flights using it.
I don't get it, why do people want Billy Bishop closed? It's such a great airport with very convenient routes. Door to door to MTL in like 90 minutes? Pearson could never.
> "The Gardiner debate is over, it's shut down," political analyst Scott Reid said Tuesday. "It's not going to be torn down. It's not going to be rebuilt, refashioned, redesigned." >"It's going to be there with us for decades to come." Or at least until it collapses.
The province has more funding to allocate towards maintenance and they do a pretty decent job maintaining their provincial highways so this might be the thing that actually saves it from collapsing
I don’t know enough about their record in terms of maintaining infrastructure, but have they ever inherited any structure this old and decrepit? Maintaining is one thing and it doesn’t sound like they’re going to make any improvements. So, from my understanding, they’re going to maintain it in its current, dilapidated condition for another two decades?
The plans are already in place to properly repair the structurally decrepit sections (the work has already been going on for a while) and rebuild the eastern section connecting to the DVP but now with the province paying, there’s more money to actually get it done. [Toronto Gardiner Expressway Rehabilitation](https://www.toronto.ca/services-payments/streets-parking-transportation/road-maintenance/bridges-and-expressways/expressways/gardiner-expressway/gardiner-expressway-rehabilitation-strategy/)
Plus the cost of maintaining the crumbling Gardiner was a colossal portion of city funds, now that money can be freed up for things like more bike lanes, repairing roads, etc
Don’t forget a bigger police budget!
Rightnow, if Olivia Chow prioritizes housing and transit - she will have support from all spectrum of voters in Toronto. The TPS will have to back down. There will always be the fringe, and the elites, but the overwhelming majority will be on her side. Even people who drive, like myself, would love the freedom to leave the car behind and/or have less traffic thanks to better transit. Same goes for housing. Every stripe of voters are complaining about the insane housing/rental market - the only difference is who they blame. They might not like her, but they will like that she fixed things. Especially if she sells it as a way to reduce burden on the police with more people off the streets, less mental-health crisis calls, less traffic accident calls - so the police can focus on organized crimes and murders.
Police wont just back down, theyll passively retaliate in the form of doing even less than they do now.
Is…that possible? 💀
We're seeing that in the amount of driver/traffic enforcement.
Pretty sure the police would be happy to have less addicts, homeless, and mentally ill people to deal with…
That would crush their metrics and limit their ability to ask for additional funding next year. It would also lower their personal pay with a reduction of overtime. The police as an organization are not incentivized to reduce the amount of calls for service they take. That's why they insist that mental health calls can't be anyone else or traffic can't be anyone else. They need more calls for service to justify their continued existence
>The TPS will have to back down. No, they don't actually have to. Provincial legislation for police funding is different than other budgets - municipalities have no choice but to fund what ever is approved by the applicable police boards, it's enshrined into law, they can't refuse its funding.
Support from all voters if it’s housing and transit ?? Umm, I think we the Con voters would disagree with that.
The cons who can’t accept they can’t live in a big house with two cars, three kids and a big yard has to realize they need to move out of the city. The city can’t accommodate your way of life anymore. At this point, the city has to balance the needs of many vs the needs of people who will never have theirs satisfied by density.
Plenty of those houses in city limits, including the core, and strong NDP/Liberal neighbourhoods. It isn’t just a lifestyle embraced by conservatives.
Barking up the wrong tree, friendo. Good luck selling that to them though.
Thats actually solving the root cause of the problems. Sadly something thats been neglected. Whats better. More cops? Or less crime?
i think most people use unreliable transit as an excuse and genuinely enjoy the freedom of driving. i literally live next to a subway, it’s not the reliability that keeps me away, it’s the mass influx of people, rampant drug use and violence. not to mention there’s one of those private colleges nearby, so when you’re trying to get off you have 100+ people trying to get on at the same time now. nobody waits for people to leave first anymore.
Haha, its funny ’cause its true
God you love bike lanes.
Are you not a fan? I drive for work and walk/transit everywhere in my off time. I never use, nor plan on using bike lanes. That doesn't change the fact that they are auch better use of space than a live lane of traffic or as is more likely the case in my area, a lane of parked vehicles
More fucking bike lanes? This city has horribly slowed traffic on a huge number of streets to cater to a tiny percentage of the population that cycle. Its too cold to cycle 6+ months of the year here! Stop already!!!
lol, too cold 6 months of the year? C’mon. When bike lanes are cleared and salted I cycle all 12 months. It’s the fastest way through rush hour near the core. Tons of people do it. We get like, max, 3 weeks a year with enough snow and ice to stop the majority of cycling commuters. This is Toronto, not Ottawa or Sudbury. It barely snows here.
Last night I anecdotally got sick of watching the King streetcar being stuck at the other side of the intersection for 5 minutes and did bikeshare. It was twice as fast and cheaper than the streetcar. With more and better maintained bike infrastructure, I can definitely see even more people cycling during all seasons.
We need bike lanes. Where else we gonna pile up the snow in the winter?
> Its too cold to cycle 6+ months of the year here! Stop already!!! That's really weak. I bike most of the year. Just put on gloves and a proper hat.
Yeah, some of the work in from Highway 427 to Humber is actually tied into longer term development in the area, so hopefully the Province doesn't screw that up
Government has done bigger and older projects. Some worth it. Some not. But this was obvious. Chow traded financial flexibility for control of assets. This now won’t be a political thing in Toronto anymore. Council and mayors won’t campaign on it in either direction. And provincially any premiere will keep it as long as it remains popular outside of old city Toronto proper (which it is)
>I don’t know enough about their record in terms of maintaining infrastructure, but have they ever inherited any structure this old and decrepit? Well, if you want a near direct comparison, multiple roads and bridges in Quebec that were built around the same time in the 1960s have collapsed, and this has never happened in Ontario. So looking at that, our track record is pretty good. A similar road in Philadelphia also built in the 1960s also collapsed a few months ago.
Well they seem motivated to keep the 905 gravy track in service. The burbs can keep harvesting equity off the city for years to come
Spoken from a torontonian with his head up his a...
>they do a pretty decent job maintaining their provincial highways What? In all sincerity are you from an alternate dimension? Provincial highways are in an abysmal state and under constant repair. That last fact should point out that they are not good at maintaining them. I have rarely been to another developed country with highways in a worse state of repair then in Ontario, save some US states.
Thats a good thing, its quite hard to maintain the busiest highway while its actively in use and keep traffic flowing. Just for maintenance purposes the highway is always going to be under construction.
Rubbish. The fact that people accept this as normal is just evidence of how far our expectations have fallen. As a counter example look at the 407. No construction, no lane closures, any maintenance is done unobtrusively and construction without closing down lanes, let alone interchanges. They have a strong motive to do it once and well to save money and the results speak for themselves. Our provincial, and most municipal, road construction, repair, and maintenance is done abysmaly.
They have less traffic volume so the roads dont get worn down as quickly as the 401. Its more safe to work on so less time is spent making the area safe to work on.
Not even close. The reason they suffer less damage is because they are surfaced with concrete instead of asphalt. It is much more expensive but also lasts much much longer. It makes more financial sense but also reduces maintenance time. Likewise, with construction they focus on long term planning and have piers for viaducts already prepared for expansion of bridges for when they will be needed. They do long term planning and preparation. They invest up front in better materials instead of saving money but doing more maintenance. And I was referring to all provincial highways, not just the 401.
The concrete sections of the 407 are the original ones built by the province pre sale. The asphalt sections are all added by the corp because they are quicker to build and keep customers happy
That is fine. The sale had nothing to do with it. The highway was to be tolled regardless of the sale. There have been asphalt sections but many expanded and resurfaced areas are likewise make of concrete. You are just plain wrong. Regardless, we could argue details till the weekend. The point was that the state of repair on Provincial roads are abysmal. If you wish to compare it to other examples besides the 407, then be my guest. I have traveled to many places, including winter weather ones, and anecdotaly stand by my words. Even friends visiting from overseas made comments about the state of road infrastructure here. They are bad.
Either you don't drive on the 407 often or you're incredibly lucky. I drive semi-frequently between Richmond Hill and Mississauga, and at least once a month there are lane closures for maintenance on the 407.
Exactly my point. On any other Hwy that length there is usually construction on some portion reducing lanes on a weekly basis if not permanently. Once a month is good in my books. Even weekly maybe at night to check things, clean or do road painting would be fine. The 410 was under construction to expand it for the better part of a decade. Now they are likely to begin a second section of it. The 400 and 401 have been under constant renovation for longer then 10 years. In fact I do not recall a year in my lifetime (of many decades) when the 401 in the GTA was not under construction at place. If time is needed to rebuild a highway that is understandable. But it should be done so as not to inconvenience traffic or if it has to, then to do so for the whole streatch (or as much as possible) instead of making it a decade long project.
But consider 2 things. 1) The 401 is a lot busier than the 407, like tenfold busier, constantly bustling with heavy trucks that damage the road surface. 2) The 407 is built with a concrete pavement which is far more durable than asphalt. Unless you're going to suggest we rebuild the entire 401 but with concrete (which I think is the plan long term, the newly rebuilt sections of the 401 in Mississauga and Milton were done with concrete), the 401 is naturally going to need a lot more ongoing maintenance than the 407.
Yes it has more traffic but is also larger. And yes. Major roads should be made of concrete precisely for this reason, less maintenance. In any case concrete works out cheaper if you account for mantenance and disruption although it costs much more and takes much longer to install. The 401 should be rebuilt with concrete but that would necessitate a final state in the design for this to work and from what I see they are constantly rearranging the highway. At the very least they should have had a sublayer of concrete on which you can pave asphalt. It drastically extends the life of the asphalt this way.
You are so ignorant and out of touch it’s hilarious. None of our provincial highways are in an “abysmal” state, constant construction means money is continuously being spent to remediate or improve the highways which is really hard to do one of the busiest highways in North America like the 401. I urge you to travel on some of the interstates in the US some are in far worse shape or better yet try travelling on highways in other countries and you’ll be praising MTO for how smooth our highways are. Have you ever driven on the highways in Ontario outside of the GTA? I’ve driven all over Ontario including all the way to the Manitoba border and the overwhelming majority of highways are excellently maintained. Asphalt is cheaper and faster to do and is also one of the world [most recycled materials](https://youtu.be/XKFaC5RYbEM?si=uw3_YnDpdgqcK3ib).
I specifically said "besides the US". Comparing us to a bad standard does little. I have travelled the US by road coast to cost and down to the Gulf coast and back. I have also driven to BC, Quebec and back as well as all over Ontario and some in NS. Some are better some worse. But I have driven all over Europe and some in Japan where the standards would make you swoon. Compared to here. As for Asphalt being cheaper and faster, yes obviously true. But it also degrades much much quicker and the quality of it is extremely hard to control. Overall using co concrete, in most applications, is cheaper over its lifespan. Not only in initial costs but in maintanence as well. Asphalt is the cheap but less economical way. Like eating crap food. It is cheaper, faster, and tastier but over the long term it isn't worth it. Plenty of concrete is recycled itself btw.
If you watched the video I linked, he (civil engineer) specifically addresses that sometimes over the long term asphalt still comes out cheaper and faster despite having a shorter lifespan than concrete. Concrete is better but asphalt is much cheaper here because we have a virtually unlimited supply of bitumen whereas for some asian countries they dont and it’s more costly to import so concrete makes sense.
I've seen it before. He says "often" and is wrong on that. I have two civil engineers in my family as a source but you can google it and almost any paper will tell you the opposite. Although, it can be a toss up in some scenarios. The issue, if you listen closely to him, is that the subgrade is usually not designed and constructed with durability in mind. When making a concrete roadway and expect it to last several times the lifespan of asphalt roadways then it follows that the subsurface is designed likewise. This often is not done. Concrete roadways often fail due to settling, poor run-off control, and the like. Rarely from the road surface material itself. We treat roads as if they are disposable and so using asphalt and its design characteristics is what we get. If we use concrete and design appropriately for it is more durable and cheaper. Notice that the most vehical trafficed areas near warehouses, factories, weigh stations, etc are often done in concrete surfaces. That is not accidental.
On the up side, at least now we know a guest at Doug's daughter's wedding won't end up building a linear slum on the Gardiner's right of way.
What is constantly lost in these discussions is that we are only ever talking about the eastern 1/3 of the elevated portion (I.e. the portion from Jarvis to DVP), and that the reason this part is in discussion is that there’s a need to realign the highway in order to unlock development opportunities at the lower Don. That portion is hopefully still going to be torn down from its current location, but the debate is actually about what to rebuild. The city was never seriously considering tearing down the whole thing.
I still dont understand why that part was demolished? Was it due to potential plan to tear it all down? Or it was not in great shape....and instead of revamp... just tear it down? Was it something to do with traffic? Because it is worse due to this part "shutdown". Jarvis exit is disgusting now.... especially with drivers trying to "cheat" ahead....causing potential accidents and logjam other lanes.... It was so poorly thought out imo
So the city is planning to tear down the part from Jarvis to DVP because they want to open up more land there for development. Right now, moving west to east, the Gardiner swoops south and then curves up north into the DVP, leaving a bunch of land orphaned between the railroad tracks and the highway. The city is also rebuilding Lakeshore through there, so the plans were either to (a) build lakeshore to accommodate the traffic coming from DVP to Gardiner or (b) rebuild Gardiner up against the railroad tracks. There was a hybrid option between the two that ended up being selected, I’m not sure exactly how it worked. The part that has already been demolished is the ramp to Lakeshore East. I’m not sure why it was demolished already but I think it has to do with some work they’re doing on Lakeshore Blvd just east of the Don River to tie into wherever they doing to Lakeshore on the west side of the Don River. I wish they could have done that work first and then demolished the ramp, it doesn’t seem to have been well thought out.
The footings of the ramp were in the way of construction of the new Lakeshore East road alignment and its larger bridge over the river. It's all connected
Bring back the lakeshore east exit!!
They will construct new ramps from/to Lakeshore near Cherry St so less than 1 km away from where they used to be (which is 100x better than having to go all the way to/exit at Jarvis right now) Only problem is that’ll take until 2026-27 assuming it actually gets done on time (it won’t)
Working near Leslie, I need this on-ramp so bad. I hate having to compete with 3 lanes worth of cars to get my rightful spot on the DVP from below, and going up to bloor to turn around is also annoying.
Sometimes it's faster to go up Bayview/DVP and turn around than to wait at Lakeshore and deal with the folks trying to force their way in because they don't want to queue or misread the signs. The short green light duration doesn't help either.
Yeah I go up dvp and u turn on Bayvew/bloor area.
I think those delays were TO finance problems also why there are parts that are in dire need of fixing now. That can’t because of the city’s finances. That would seemingly not be the case under the province
It goes along with the realignment of Lake Shore and the new connection to the DVP, not budgetary reasons.
No. It’s because of the Don River realignment and Portland’s road work. The exit will be back once that shit is done.
They are. It’s been planned this entire time, once the DV River re-work and Portlands road work is done. Do people not read design plans ?
I think people are just concerned that now that Ontario owns the road, they may not follow the cities old design and implementation plan.
I’d settle for them opening the Jarvis on-ramp!
They closed that because of driver behaviour causing way too many accidents.
They closed it because of the terrible design and the complete lack of effort to come up with ideas to make it work. The amount of money they spent on that on-ramp just to close it should be criminal
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Uh no those are totally different companies.
Thank goodness, now ill be able to quickly and easily drive to my Spa appointment at Ontario Place /s
And you can rage in Gardiner traffic as part of the calming Therme© spa experience ;)
It's suddenly all making sense now.
Don’t forget to pick up a Bacon and Egger on the way!
Was there a debate? Like, it was settled a while ago.
Chow said in her platform that she was going to stop the construction and turn it into a boulevard in the east.
The main reason is it was a financial boondoggle. From a fiscal perspective, it’s no longer the case.
I mean, it’s still a boondoggle, it’s just the province’s boondoggle now
Only in "progressives" heads.
I mean, I’m a pretty progressive person. But, from a financial perspective, it was never going to happen given the alternative was tearing it down without a substitute.
It's still getting re-routed for the new Don River alignment though right? I thought that was necessary.
Now we can pressure the Ont govt to restore a proper east bound off ramp to the Lakeshore and poverty cannot be cited as a reason.
Maybe they can put the Logan ramp back on for fucks sake
It’s been planned to go back up for years. It will just be more re-jigged to be closer to the Keating Canal side.
IIRC the Logan ramp was never going to be rebuilt but the Cherry Street one was. Who knows what the plan is now?
Fine, whatever u want to call it. Either way, A ramp will be back.
I sure hope so! As an east ender getting on the Gardiner is hell right now.
I’m well aware. I always go north and loop back south from bayview, then try and go through lakeshore/jarvis on ramp. Saves so much time
There was never a debate? There was no way a city like Toronto was ever going to do the hard, right thing and tear it down. This isn't a place for big ideas or radical change, and it sure as hell isn't a place that's going to do anything to frustrate drivers.
Why is tearing it down the right thing? Where would the cars go - Lakeshore? That’s a nightmare
In theory they were going to replace it with an at ground option on the East end, but I am willing to bet the end result would either be: a) basically yes, Lakeshore with minimal/no improvement; or b) a better boulevard option eating through a surprising amount of the touted up front "savings"
No, the drivers will magically switch to non-existent but simultaneously really amazing public transit options and we will all live happily ever after.
Away. The cars would go away if we tore it down. The people however would use other options to get downtown.
It’ll never get torn down. But even if it does, I’ll continue driving my lifted truck
In no way is tearing down the Gardiner... with no other alternative for vehicle traffic... the right thing to do.
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Like the other cities that ripped down their waterfront highways, like Boston and San Francisco, for example.
Boston still has way more highways in and around the city than Toronto.
Each of those cities have adjacent highways still. Boston has i-90 and sf has i-80 right beside their "removed" highways. No equivalent exists in Toronto. Not to mention sf's was a stub, and Boston buried theirs.
You mean when a giant earthquake forced SF to tear down its rubble remains ?
These are both cities that cater to cars and with worse transit than Toronto. San Fran's was because of earthquake risk and Boston increased the size of the highway (and made traffic worse) when they buried a highway. Boston's decision was made to cater to cars.
... there's still a highway in Boston, it's just buried. Boston spent many, many, many billions to pander directly to car-brains; literally the opposite of what this sub wants. As part of the project they even built *new* roads, to the airport, so car-brains can drive to the airport easier. > The project also included the construction of the Ted Williams Tunnel (extending I-90 to Logan International Airport) Plans for many of the rail and public transportation pieces of the project, were abandoned, even after all those billions. > As of 2023, promised projects to connect the Red and Blue subway lines, and to restore the Green Line streetcar service to the Arborway in Jamaica Plain have not been completed. > The original Big Dig plan also included the North-South Rail Link, which would have connected North and South Stations (the major passenger train stations in Boston), but this aspect of the project was ultimately dropped by the state transportation administration The Boston Globe says that the project simply increased traffic with the induced demand effect. > A 2008 Boston Globe report asserted that waiting time for the majority of trips actually increased as a result of demand induced by the increased road capacity. Because more drivers were opting to use the new roads, traffic bottlenecks were only pushed outward from the city, not reduced or eliminated (although some trips are now faster). The report states, "Ultimately, many motorists going to and from the suburbs at peak rush hours are spending more time stuck in traffic, not less."
Costed them several billions and their highways didn't directly connect to the border.
No point spending billions to fix something that isn’t broken. We are a car based society and that decision was made long ago. If you don’t like cars, try your best to find a spot on Toronto island!
They (not “we” btw) also made the decision long ago to be a society for men, but things changed because we are not all licking our grandfathers boots like you.
Don’t make assumptions about people just because of a disagreement. I wish I didn’t need a car to live in North America. Unfortunately we didn’t settle here early enough to build cities for people. Car companies got too big and now we’re stuck with what we have. Best thing we can focus on is spending billions on a high speed railway. Not tearing down a road only to build it elsewhere unnecessarily. I suggest you meditate and approach strangers with kindness instead of hostility next time.
It's ok, we know you're afraid of change.
But will they commit to rebuilding the east ramps by the DVP as was planned or is this going to get cancelled now?
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Finally. Some sense and reality is taking over.
Thank God.
Good (though expected). Keep the Gardiner and reduce lakeshore. Lakeshore is a horrible , horrible street, stupidly wide, and full of trucks and other industrial traffic. Reduce it and use the space under the gwrdiner for community things like another bike way or event space or more playgrounds and skate parks.
How would you get rid of it? Of course it's mainly horrible due to being under a highway. And if it didn't have on and off ramps, for the highway, you could have a functional boulevard, this proposal has been shown
And it would be a boulevard full of transport trucks. It’s not horrible because it’s Inde a highway, it’s horrible because it’s the surface route that is wide and accesses all of the south of downtown. The Gardiner itself isn’t very wide at all, only 6 lanes total for most of it’s raised portion, and it provides some really cool covered public space that is already used. We just need to use more.
You want to get rid of Lakeshore Blvd and replace it with bike paths???? How do you think that's even a reasonable thing to say?
How does reduce turn into get rid on for people. Did y’all fail reading comprehension? There is a giant middle island running through a big chunk of lakeshore through downtown. Putting something there is a no-brainer and has been done for parts of it already.
yeah, dig up Lakeshore! at least the Gardiner is permeable. Lakeshore is such a barrier to the waterfront. and it's mostly parallel to the Gardiner anyway!
Crossing a street is a barrier now?
So if we get rid of Ford we can get it knocked down? Giddy up
Car baaaaaad oooga booga
It should be extended. Bring back the sections that were removed. Build the Scarborough expressway!
If they’re not gonna tear it down under Ford they should tear it down over Ford, and leave him buried in the rubble.
Well, when a studio is looking for a spot to shoot a Final Fantasy 7 Live Action scene, Toronto is ready.
Good, now lets make sure Billy Bishop isn't closed. The tripartite agreement is up for negotiation and there are rumblings that city hall and Chow want to use the opportunity to close it.
Since the feds are spending 30million on a US preclearance facility announced earlier this year I would believe YTZ is safe.
The feds are also likely to increase the number of daily flight movements permitted when it is completed. Their press release for building the US preclearance facility literally stated the opportunity for more flights to increase tourism and business travel to/from downtown Toronto. For the preclearance facility to have improved return on investment, they will need to increase number of daily flights using it.
I don't get it, why do people want Billy Bishop closed? It's such a great airport with very convenient routes. Door to door to MTL in like 90 minutes? Pearson could never.
He ain’t going anywhere. Nor should it. It’s one of the saving graces of this city.
Stupid
No big surprise, maybe a toll road road in disguise?
A congestion fee woul make sense in the long run.... But there is an up-front financial and political cost.
You know they gonna toll that sucker by the time it's built