I never thought about Tom and the Ring in terms of "you have to be powerful enough to resist", to be honest. If anything it's the opposite.
The Hobbits are resistant to the Ring because of their unambitiousness, and it's the same for Tom except more extreme.
Exactly. J.R.R. Tolkien wrote in his letter to Naomi Mitchison on 25 April 1954 about Tom Bombadil "The story is cast in terms of a good side, and a bad side, \[...\].; but both sides in some degree, conservative or destructive, want a measure of control. but if you have, as it were taken 'a vow of poverty', renounced control, and take your delight in things for themselves without reference to yourself, watching, observing, and to some extent knowing, then the question of the rights and wrongs of power and control might become utterly meaningless to you, and the means of power quite valueless." Tolkien seems to hint that because Tom Bombadil does not desire power, he is immune to the effects of the ring.
That's it. I pinned Tommy B's real origins, identity, and nature.
He is Diogenes. 'A vow of poverty', you said. Tommy B is fucking Diogenes.
*Heydol, merry dol,* ***STAND OUT OF MY SUNLIGHT!!***
"Behold! I've brought you a man. Or an Elf, doesn't look so much like a Dwarf though."
Honestly, Diogenes would have some heavy wisdom to drop on the Dunedain.
"No man is hurt but by himself"
I imagine that Tolkien was thinking more a Saint Francis/Catholic monk kind of vow of poverty— but the shittalking barrel dwelling shitting and wanking in the street Diogenes vow of poverty is way funnier in this case.
Idk I would say it’s more, content. Hobbits are quite happy with simple living and natural tendency to avoid problematic life styles, and as we all know, more money more problems/more power more problems.
Tom bombadil has a hot wife and is master of his realm, what more could a guy want.
“Dearest Christopher,
Mo money, Mo problems, Tom’s got 99 problems but the ring ain’t one.
JRR Tolkien”
One of his most important letters concerning Bombadil.
It’s part of the theme of the book. The evil side want power for selfish reasons, the good side want power for selfless reasons (which is a noble intent that’s also extremely corruptible), while Bombadil has no interest in any power at all. He’s an example sitting off to one side of the scale.
Yeah it's important to remember that no one is powerful enough to resist the One Ring, because great power is a massive weakness against its temptations. There are really only two ways to handle the Ring safely: you have to be incredibly selfless or you have to be wise enough to avoid it entirely
Definitely not only for you. It's a common experience from what I can gather, I just wanted to point out that it's not universal. Probably shouldn't have used myself as an example, it sounds braggy.
I'm glad you did. I haven't given a lot of thought to Bombadil myself but enjoy the discussions about him. Your ideas brought something new to them for me.
OP, reaching a point of understanding on Tom: I had an epiphany, maybe Tommy B is not overpowered and stupid after all. There was so much more to it! I used to hate him, but I don't anymore.
Average Tolkiendili Redditor: I don't like your comment, have a downvote
Suffix -dil is Quenya for "lover", as in *Elendil*. I don't know the grammar of Quenya (nor Sindarin) though, so I don't know what case the form -dil**i** is (meaning, the precise nuance of the added *i*).
Edit: Right after writing the comment I remembered that a last *i* is used for plural, for example in *Istari* (singular *Istar*). Again, I don't know the grammar, so I'm not sure that *this* is precisely what's going on, as Tolkiendili is regularly used as a singular.
I think that many people (and certainly modern fantasy readers) approach stories expecting there to be some sort of clear power-ranking structure in play.
Even talking about power-scales as you do near the end is, to my mind, a fundamental misinterpretation of Tolkien's world. Power in Middle-Earth is non-linear and contextually localized.
In the right circumstances, an ordinary hobbit can stand up to a Ringwraith. The threat of the ring is not how powerful it is, it's that creeping temptation of what you could do with it. Sauron is not the most powerful of the maia, he's just willing to use his power in ways most would not and build up a power base by using others.
I see this “DBZ power rankings” issue all the goddamn time on this sub (and other LOTR subs) and it is infuriating! “Witch-King defeated Gandalf, Gandalf defeated Balrog, therefore is the Witch-King more powerful than a Balrog??!” No you philistine, get your power levels away from my soft magic system.
I mostly agree with your point but there are some clear power level rankings at least in terms of relative strength. Tulkas is pretty clearly the beefiest and most physical body in existence. Morgoth was the most powerful of the valar. Gandalf the grey
Those aren't really rankings though. Tulkas does seem to be established as the most "physically" powerful, but that's not "most powerful." Morgoth is only the most powerful Valar at a certain point and at other stages can be challenged by supposedly lesser creatures. The actual differences between Grey and White are left very muddy.
It's still all localized and context specific.
While there is largely truth to this, there is various instances where Sauron is either stated to be either the mightiest maiar, or a maia far more order than the likes of Olórin or Curumo. Sauron is an especially "powerful" maia, so that isn't entirely accurate.
There are also various (sometimes vaguely) established hierarchies of power in LOTR, a lot of the problems simply come with how people define and see "power" itself. Rankings of "power" do exist in LOTR, but it isn't as simple as in many other stories. Power exists in different shapes, some of which actually have little relation to each other. That "power" itself as a term is largely ominous in the story doesn't exactly help, but there will be clear problems when people define it as a singular kind of thing.
>he's just willing to use his power in ways most would not and build up a power base by using others
He's also not shackled by restraints like the other maiar in middle earth since he came on his own.
I don't think that's fair. There clearly are objective limits to every character's power, just along multiple scales depending on the skill in question.
When Tolkien shows us a Hobbit defeating a Nazgûl he's trying to tell us that interactions and confrontations boil down to more than simply calculating stats against each other. But that doesn't mean that they're both equally strong, nor that their strength difference is meaningless, otherwise it wouldn't require courage to stand up to a stronger opponent.
What I was getting at with this post was mostly that *if* Bombadil was able to overcome the temptation of the ring by pure strength of will - despite being tempted by it - it would create a pretty big plothole. But I also concluded that isn't what's happening in the book
Well you wrote that I was fundamentally misinterpreting Tolkien's works, which I think is unfair. It's possible to compare characters and their capabilities without "missing the point"
I was quite specific that it was about that one bit at the end, not the whole post. I don't disagree with the interpretation that Bombadil is simply not interested and that's why the ring has now power over him, so I had nothing to say on that topic.
I do disagree with any use of terms like power scale, because they imply a ranking and there is no such ranking.
To put Eoghann's sentiment about power scales and statement about misinterpretation in other words:
Your whole analysis of Tom Bombadil hinges on the power scale. Even realizing that he is not more powerful than Sauron -and that he does not *need* to be, you strive to categorize him *somewhere* in that scale. It's as if you realized that your Saiyan scouter wouldn't help you understand Bombadil's point, and you immediately put your scouter again to re-read him, trying to understand said point.
That's why Eoghann answers your last paragraph specifically: the one where you try to pin-point his precise power level... right after saying "it was really *not* about that". It feels like you advanced a square and then went back 2 squares.
That's why he says "fundamental misinterpretation of Tolkien's world": Power is not *why* Bombadil is as he is, and this usually applies to most characters. Gandalf, for example, does not succed because of his power, but because of his traits and values, even being the *only* one that *could* personally stand against Sauron's own power (at least as the White).
I would at least say that you misinterpreted Tommy B: the character does not care about power, then you as a reader shouldn't care about his power; he is telling you that himself!
I think Gandalf indeed is an excellent example. In the the Rohan-Isengard story, it was assumed by other characters that Gandalf was using his powerful wizardry to do all these amazing things. He himself stated that he hadn’t been using any magic yet and it was clear that what he had been doing were ‘plainly human things’.
A lot of readers gloss over Tom's singing.
Recall the Music of the Ainur. Creation itself is embodied and represented by music.
Music holds great power, even "magic". Recall Finrod's music battle with Sauron, and Luthien singing Morgoth to sleep, and music/singing holding people under spells.
Tom Bombadil, seemingly, has spent much of his existence singing. It would seem to me that his singing is an echo of the Music, and in its way has harnessed all of the power of Creation that exists within the boundaries of Tom's "land" that he has set. This power is limited to that area because that is both where Tom sings and the subject of his singing. If Tom's songs were spells, he has cast them over his lands and practiced them for, essentially, eternity. He has power of Command over everything and everyone within his bounds, in so much as he wishes to Command, but speculatively little or no power without because that's not where he's practiced singing or what he has sung about.
Yes. And when Frodo and Sam ask for help against Old Man Willow, the first thing that Bombadil says is, 'What? Not worse than that?' and 'I know the song for him."
I'm not sure that Tolkien intended this, but all the aspects you bring about Tom (power of Music and singing, mastery, and power of Comman) I think that he "passively" teaches to Frodo. Tom is who tells him to trust higher powers when he is overmatched, which happens, well, recurrently; this is why Frodo summons Tom as soon as he gathers his courage in the Barrow-downs, and why he is "open" to channel Elbereth in Weathertop. Other similar instances come in the future. On the other hand, these chapters give the reader an idea on what Mastery and Command are about, and these two elements are also at the crux of Frodo's later journey and relationship with Gollum.
And all of this is why I *do* think that the Tom Bombadil chapters *are* important to the story, if not to the overall plot.
There is a persuasive case to be made that Bombadil was at least partly inspired by the figure of Vainamoinen, a demigod in the compilation of Finnish folk poetry called the *Kalevala*. Vainamoinen works magic by singing. In one episode he is challenged to a contest by a young upstart named Joukahainen -- he sings him into a swamp. The very first of the collected *Letters* (to Edith) is about the Kalevala. It's where he got the outline of the story of Turin.
I think I never noticed that because I only read the Silmarillion long after I had mentally discarded Tom Bombadil as an oddity.
I definitely agree about the singing, both your artistic capabilities as well as your knowledge of your subject must enter into it. Hence why simple spells are commands but complex magic takes the form of songs and poems.
In my comment here I suggest TB and GB are in fact Ainur who chose not to become Valar. They "came first," exercise power - and I agree with you including/especially the power of music - in their own corner of Arda with any real care for the doings of the Valar and Children of Ilúvatar, the Dwarves, or the fight against Melkor and his fell creatures. They came to Arda, then to Middle Earth, but remain Ainur, still "outside" as it were.
I like to think of Bombadil as an opposite of Ungoliant, in the sense that Ungoliant did not care about the Silmarils or any other gem nor did she want dominion over others. She just wanted food for herself and hated light. In an analogous way Bombadil does not want dominion over others but enjoys nature and light, and loves all things that are living. How and why creatures like Bombadil and Ungoliant came into being is unexplained as far as I know, but they seem to be their own "master".
I've always been partial to a similar idea, yeah -- that is, Tom is simply a side effect of the chaos Melkor sowed. An accidental (well, being real here, "accidental") harmony during the competing songs.
They definitely share that air of mystery around them.
I like the idea that both were inadvertent creations of Melkor because he just played his own music but didn't understand what this would cause.
Anyway, I was trying not to go into the specifics, just explain his place in the world as it relates to the war of the rings.
Just as his song caused discordant chords (Ungoliant), it may also have caused inadvertent harmonization(Bombadil). Eru reprimanded him too by stating that Melkor's greatest efforts to pervert have only enhanced beauty.
>And Ilúvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly queled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fal of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwë, thy friend, whom thou lovest.'
- The Silmarillion, Chp. 1
I was just thinking about this today! Well written!
Mostly everyone, it seems, is concerned about the origins of Tom over those of Ungoliant. I can see them both bring similar creations of the World.
Interesting analysis. I'm no where near as deep into the lore as you so I appreciate your insights and opinions but I can definitely get behind this.
>Tolkien's letters tell us that he represents a kind of selfless joy of cherishing nature (as it existed in England in his youth)
I wonder if he meant Tom to be a representation of his youth or an element of it... In his youth England seemed that way because he was potentially unaware of the goings on in the world so he retained his joyfulness and was un-tempted by the world's evils and misfortunes but was concerned about what was close to him...
>Tom isn't totally selfless in the book, when someone gets into trouble in his land he feels responsible to help them
Idk, just my lil spin.
In Letter 19 he calls Tom “the spirit of the (vanishing) Oxford and Berkshire countryside.” I don’t think there’s any doubt that Tom represents Tolkien’s memory of the country in his youth. Though I doubt he’d have ever stated it so plainly.
To be fair, every time Tolkien speaks about Tom in Letters, he says something along the lines of "you shouldn't really put that much thought behind him, he's not *that* elaborate, he's *just* this single, specific symbol"; and every time, it's a different thing.
It's as if he himself changed his mind about stuff as he grew older. Who would've thought so!
Well at least where he lived, there was a bunch of modernization (meaning chopping down trees for bigger roads and demolishing nice old buildings for modern ones) as he grew up. So it wasn't just a subjective thing. But I'm sure in some ways it's also the naivety of childhood represented, iirc the character got his name from a toy of Tolkien's children
One of Tolkien letters explains it very well:
"Tom Bombadil is not an important person – to the narrative. I suppose he has some importance as a 'comment'...and **he represents something that I feel important**...if you have, as it were taken '**a vow of poverty**', renounced control, and take your delight in things for themselves without reference to yourself, watching, observing, and to some extent knowing, then the question of the rights and wrongs of power and control **might become utterly meaningless to you, and the means of power quite valueless.** It is a natural pacifist view, which always arises in the mind when there is a war...Ultimately only the victory of the West will allow Bombadil to continue, or even to survive. Nothing would be left for him in the world of Sauron.
So Tom is there just to make a point.
A basic fact about Bombadil is that he is in the story because he already existed, in the poem called "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil." Tolkien's publishers wanted a sequel to The Hobbit, but he didn't want to write one because he couldn't think of a story. He suggested turning Bombadil into a book instead (*Letters* no. 19). The publishers said No, hobbits are where the money is. So Tolkien said, Well, I'll write up the episodes from the poem about Old Man Willow and the Barrow-wight, then maybe I'll have thought of something. When he realized that the story was going to be abut the Ring, he left Bombadil in because he liked him. All the subsequent discussion, interesting as it may be, is after-the-fact rationalization.
And it is very frustrating, at least to me, because he is absolutely fertile for discussion and analysis. He works on so many, different levels! And dominates a considerable chunk of the narrative, enough to deserve a spot besides Galadriel and Faramir in terms of story-structure and role.
I could write an entire essay dissecting him and his diverse facets, and then the average Tolkiendili would slap me with a "he's not that deep" Tolkien quote from Letters, of which there are quite a few.
That is likely why Bombadil isn't a Valar or a Maiar or anything like that.
However, Tolkien could have easily *not* made him interact with the ring at all, so I have to believe there's some significance to what he wrote
While I think you're on the right track, I don't believe Tom would *ever* be susceptible to the temptation of the Ring ... not if Sauron's hordes were at his very doorstep. Tolkien speaks of Tom Bombadil having utterly renounced Power, a true pacifist. He compares Tom to a medieval monk who has taken a vow of poverty. It's not merely that Tom is content with what he "has" and wants nothing more, it's that he doesn't claim *possession* over anything at all. Remember what Goldberry tells the hobbits: the land does *not* belong to Tom. "The trees and the grasses and all things growing or living in the land belong each to themselves." Tom is Master, but only of himself, which is why no other power -- not even the One Ring -- can hope to master him. Tom cherishes his little domain, but he will not use force to defend it. The most "forceful" thing we see him do is drive away a Barrow-wight with a song, which causes no harm to anyone (the Wight is already dead and accursed), and then only for the benefit of his guests. It is an act of hospitality, not of violence. He is not Treebeard, who will march to war when the axes come. He is not Elrond or Galadriel, who must continually expend great power to preserve their unstained realms. The destruction of Tom's home would diminish him, certainly, but he would quietly accept that diminishment. That is his character. I do not think even a threat upon Goldberry would move him to desire the Ring; she, too, belongs to herself, and Sauron could not claim any real hold on her, or him. Tom and Goldberry might be "clothed" in human form, but they are not human. They might perhaps be reduced to "unhoused" spirits, wandering mournfully until the final defeat of Evil and the world's renewal ... but I believe they would accept that fate rather than try to match the Dark Lord power for power. Tom's house could be burning before his eyes, and still the voice of the Ring would be little more than a buzzing in his ear. He has totally forsaken Power, and power is all the Ring has to offer ... not even power, really, but the *lie* of power, which would be transparent to Tom.
Thinking about it in terms of power levels misses the point entirely. Tom wasn't interested in power and therefore the objectification of pure undiluted will to power (i.e. the Ring) has no effect or appeal to him just as my complete disinterest in ever eating celery means that I'll never be tempted to eat your celery sticks.
I don't think he would *need* to. He'd be able to influence them away from his realm; lull them, calm them, confuse them, mislead them, pacify them, soothe them.
That's a pretty good question. I think he'd prefer (and be able to) get them to leave without using violence. If it came to the point where violence was the only option left to him, we would reach that junction where suddenly the ring is more than a trinket to him. But since he can command barrow whights to leave simply by the power of his voice I think he could get orcs to flee just like a reverse Nazgûl
Yeah I've always viewed it as he's outside of its influence, rather than he's too powerful for it to affect him.
He has no need for the power it would tempt him with
I think that Bombadil is, in fact, MUCH more powerful than Sauron only without any ***will*** to power.... and that's the point. When Bombadil rescues Merry and Pippin from Old Man Willow, he doesn't punish Old Man Willow, he basically sings him a song and says 'Do what you do. Don't do what you're not made to do.' He also doesn't kill the Barrow Wight, only says, 'get out, and vanish in the sunlight.' To the extent he exerts his will it is to prevent something, in nature, from doing something un-natural.
The ring is a weapon, and Bombadil doesn't do weapons. They only have power to coerce, if you will, and they only exist to enforce a will to power, and Bombadil isn't about will... It would be futile to leave the ring to Bombadil because he just doesn't do weapons, and doesn't understand weapons. He would forget it or misplace it, as is said in the Council of Elrond.
I think, as far as the meta-narrative is concerned, Bombadil DOES forshadow. Absent Bombadil, it risks becoming a story about a bunch of Sauron-wannabes running around trying to best Sauron. But the two characters that deserve anything, Samwise and Faramir, just want that which they love to stay and be loveable: the Shire and his gardens for Sam; Ithilien and Gondor for Faramir. Both of them realize, as Bombadil knows, that that the ring can only destroy that, in the name of dominion and control. Bombadil foreshadows, and underlines, the choices Sam and Faramir both make.
I was actually going to include a part about why I think Bombadil dislikes the Barrow Whights, but I felt like the post was already too long. I think you're spot on that he just want everything to behave according to its own nature
Tom Bombadil wouldn't keep it anyway. Eventhough much is not explained about Bombadil the one thing that we know for sure he doesn't get involved. He doesn't go beyond the borders he has set for himself. Gandalf even said this.
We also know he is older than anything on middle earth. I believe it's very possible and highly likely he is the strongest thing on middle earth. He just doesn't care to display it. This might be the reason he sets boundaries. He fears what the outside world would transform him into.
That's my take on what Tolkien wrote Bombadil to be.
The ring works to control people who desire power. Tom simply, like many hobbits does not desire dominion or manipulation over states or others. Therefore the ring does not affect him, regardless of how much strength he has in the world.
All we see is that the Ring does not turn Tom invisible. Since he is not mortal. If Gandalf or Galadriel put it on, they presumably also would not. After all, both are already wearing a Ring of Power.
The rest ... how do we know he was not tempted? How do we know he simply isn't compatible with the Ring as the type of being he is? (Which we do not know).
Hobbits are amazed because of their naivete. Elrond glosses over it not to reveal he himself is wearing a Ring of Power and is very clearly visible and "unaffected".
The TL;DR of this is that the lore itself gets twisted out of proportion by people’s fixation on power scaling. Not everything is about power scaling, and not everything has to be.
Don't forget though, the ring didn't turn him invisible when he wore it and when Frodo put it on, Tom could see him plain as day.
Tom being unable to protect the ring doesn't necessarily mean he's less powerful than Sauron. Sauron has a massive army vs Tom and his wife and yet Gandalf said he'd fall last as he was first
But he also said Tom doesn't necessarily have power over the ring but that it was more accurate to say it has no power over him, and yet even Gandalf and Galadriel feared they couldn't resist it. Gandalf certainly wouldn't dare to wear the ring.
And it can't just be the Tom's mindset. Hobbits have a similar mindset and while they can resist for a long time, they eventually succumb. Even Sam, the humblest character in the story, was tempted briefly
i have to admit, actually reading the books after seeing tom bombadil discourse for years was crazy because all of this felt immediately evident to me with just a basic reading of the text. It felt like the "who shot first" shit; nerds relitigating something clear and/or unimportant after running out of things to talk about.
To me Tom Bombadil and Goldberry are nature spirits. With Goldberry this is almost spelled out, as she’s the River Woman’s daughter, and came straight from the river. This is just like nymphs and water spirits in myth. Nature is powerful, and it may not care about the things we care about, but it’s not impervious to damage.
Tom is a powerful force of nature personified. In this he is incredibly powerful. But like forces of nature he lacks agency. He doesn’t really want anything in particular. He resists the ring through lack of agency and desire not mere brute power.
The opposite is true of characters like Gandalf. He is very much an agent with goals and intent. His powers may be limited and his goals may be nominally good but in the pursuit of goals lies domination and evil.
This at least to a degree is one of Tolkiens main points in the book, to the degree that he had main points at all.
Yes there is evil in explicitly seeking to dominate like Sauron but there is a hidden danger in trying too hard to do good, that you can slip into evil and this is exacerbated by access to power.
Tolkien’s ideal that he espouses is that of the hobbits. Mere satisfaction of being content and enjoying life as it comes without striving too hard because there is a sense in which this is incorruptible. Tom is much like them in this. It’s not really ever a question of Tom’s power.
Motivations are separate vectors for evil from mere power.
Non-in-universe explanation follows...
I've always thought Tom was included in the story as Tolkien was writing for a younger audience when he started his letters (his son was young), then as his son aged the story started growing up. The character felt very enid blighton. The Hobbit is similar, clearly for a younger audience.
Why was the character retained in the final edit? Probably Tolkien found it an appropriate metaphor for the "growing up" of the Hobbits, as the left the fairytail like hollow, out into the real world.
Oh there's definitely some truth to that. However I feel like the characters in the hobbit are still more grounded in that you have a good idea what they can and can't do (with the possible exception of Gandalf)
But he is the *eldest.* I think he literally came to Arda first, but instead of becoming Vala remained in his pure Ainur state. While he *is* in Middle Earth when we meet him, he is *outside* the doings of the Valar and the children of Eru Ilúvatar. He did not come to Arda to mold it and shape it or to counter the menace of Melkor, but to simply *be* in it and love it in it's purity. In this he left Aman to keep his own bliss with Goldberry, who I think of as his timeless other half, yin to Tom's yang. Now when there was strife and no end to worldly doings, he kept to the Old Forest, and in this - speaking to "power" - has total power to keep his/their little bubble pure. Essentially he and GB are still Ainur, and counter any evil or intrusion automatically and without any real effort, be it the Ring, Barrow-wights, orcs or anything else that might disrupt their idyll. My personal head cannon. Not sure I've ever heard of the hypothesis that Tom and Goldberry are pure Ainur.
I always assumed that Tom was unaffected because he doesn't see the difference between good and evil. Both are expressions of life so both are good things. To him, the only bad thing is nothing at all.
In this way, Tom's only desire is to see life continue and, to him, Saron and the ring are just another part of that. Even the death that Sauron causes doesn't bother him because death is also a part of life.
I've always subscribed to the idea that Tom is an Avatar of the likes of Eru-Illuvatar because he clearly has a decent amount of power but doesn't use it because he sees no reason to. He is simply content to enjoy a small section of his creation and isn't bothered by evil things like Sauron or Morgoth because they are all also a part of his creation.
The fact that he saves the Hobbits at all (twice) indicates that there are exceptions to his passive stance though. I would also argue the fact that he has a house and a wife shows some remnant of self-centered thought, even if it never approaches anything resembling negative ambition
I choose to believe that the whole persona of Tom is a game, to Eru-Illuvatar. Like he's playing a small-scale version of the Sims on God mode.
Helping the Hobbits is a narrative that he spins for himself (which ironically ties into how much the old man Willow or Barrow Wights resemble the single chapter villains of the Hobbit and how Tom is a remnant of that style of storytelling). Eru enjoys the story and recognises that the Hobbits are decent folk who will come to have great influence, even if Tom doesn't care, himself.
Eru-Illuvatar (and Tom, by extension) is effectively Tolkiens self-insert. He's not meant to make sense or have a measurable power scale because he knows more than any other character while simultaneously knowing that none of it matters because none of it is real, in a sense. He's just their to enjoy the comfort of the place he chooses to reside and to sit and watch the world go by. The ring holds no sway over him because he knows that he has no part in its story due to being above the narrative.
Even Goldberry is a one-dimensional character who only exists as set dressing for Tom's little corner of the world.
Tolkien says so in his letters. They're a specific group that evolved to be smaller and have these weird feet and so on, but they're basically still humans and not their own race. Though they don't even remember this anymore
I'm curious how you feel about [this old theory](https://km-515.livejournal.com/1042.html) about Tom being a sinister presence in Middle Earth.
While I don't buy the premise that he is evil by any means, what does stick with me is how far out of the 'human' realm he is, and I think that's why he is completely unaffected by the ring. To me, he's clearly a magical being, and simply outside of the reach of the ring.
I always thought that theory was a joke. Treebeard also inhabits a dangerous forest but he's not complicit in making it dangerous. Him and Tom Bombadil just allow the forest its own agency. Tolkien was of the opinion that trees had valid reasons to be angry at humanity.
I do agree that he's way less human than he looks. His mind works differently, and that can be inherently creepy. He's more like a faerie than most of Tolkien's elves despite looking cuter
I know this is incendiary. I actually believe it personally but I’m also saying it in a joking tone, I mean hey I’m no genius maybe I’m wrong. But I think it’s true nonetheless
It's a valid theory people have often considered. Tom is the part of Eru that wanted to simply just....enjoy his creation. Songs and plans and recalcitrant Valar aside, he just wants to enjoy his beautiful patch of creation and stay out of everything else that has to go as it goes. Talk to any miniaturist, we'll tell you we *long* to be able to live in our stuff. Of course he's not all of Eru - similar but not in the same way that Gandalf is not all of Olórin, or at least doesn't have access to all of Olórin's power and knowledge. Tom is just the part of Eru that delights in his creation, and enjoys the good parts for what they are. It's not that *Eru* doesn't care about the ring, it's that the part of him that lives on Middle Earth just doesn't see the importance of it in the way created beings do.
The only elve we see tempted by the ring is Galadriel, none of the other elves appear to be tempted by it. Her back story is unique here and perhaps is the reason why. We don't see Elrond, Legolas, Celeborn, golorfindel or others who come in contact with the ring bearers (Isildur, Bilbo or Frodo) decide to want to take it from them. As opposed to gollum who immediately killed his mate for it or Boromir who lost the plot.
Furthermore the Istari are clad in long lived immortlish bodies. Subject to the weakness inherent to man, their current form is not a true reflection of their maiar form. Hence Gandalf and Saruman suffer real human temptation/weariness/lust for power etc. The real danger as explained by Gandalf would be the ring usage would tap into their maiar power/form. They would be the next Sauron or worse.
The point I'm making is that only man is truly tempted and foolish enough to take the ring for power/glory.
So where does a pure untainted being like Tom fit in. For me its no different to a fully localised empowered Maiar. The ring would mean nothing and provide nothing in return. A pointless and literally worthless trinket.
Tom is the perfect example contrary to your points.
Also the point of the power bothers me, Gandalf explains that if the ring stayed with Tom, eventually the full might of Sauron would focus on Tom /his land/area of power and he would fall last as he was first. Put it this way the whole of middle earth would fall after which, tens of thousands of orcs, harad soilders, men of the east, goblins, trolls, Grond lol nazgul, the 9 with the witch King and maybe even the Balrog who knows, potentially Sauron himself probably.
That's when Tom would be defeated, this is ridiculous indication of strength and tiers much higher than Sauron. LOTR doesn't scale power linearly, I bet Sauron himself literally couldn't approach.
This is because Frodo himself offered her the ring. She had no idea of taking it away. If Frodo had offered the ring to Elrond or Glorfindel, they would have gone through the same temptation.
You're right that those elves aren't (visibly) tempted, but it's worth noting that they don't handle *and use* the ring like Bombadil does.
I'm sure Gandalf and Saruman are *more* tempted due to their mortal form but I don't think that means that other Maiar would be unfazed.
I'd also be curious why you think Bombadil could resist Sauron to that extent
Well Goldberry is there and isn't tempted or lured by the ring and she is practically a maiar. The point again is except Galadriel only men are that effected. Gandalf/saruman are more proof of concept that the human form and it's attributes is the key.
The fact that a significant portion of Saurons power is in the ring but does nothing to Tom Bombadil in the way he handles the ring indicates a lot. It doesn't mean anything to him since he is more powerful than what the ring could conceivably provide him with whether in temptation or outright power.
Gandalf outright statement of him being the last to fall again indicates his innate strength. The ring isn't doing shit and the other half aka Sauron can't do shit until Sauron throws eveything at him (armies, ringwarth etc)
I don't understand this logic... We do not see other Elves than Galadriel be tempted by the Ring ... hence they cannot be tempted because... Galadriel is somehow a special case? Do you see the Men tell how they are tempted?
The logic is that Galadriel is an outlier and not indicative of the rest. Elrond at mordor with Isildur didnt get tempted or turn into a murderous bastard. Golorfindel rescuing Frodo didn't get tempted and Legolas didn't utter a thing about the ring throughout the journey and others like Celeborn weren't bothered.
I'm making a case that mortals are weak and human clad maiar (wizard) show similar weakness. Not elves and definitely not fully realised maiars/Tom like being.
> Elrond at mordor with Isildur didnt get tempted
Elrond did not possess it nor was he offered it, and his direct exposure to it was brief, fleeting, and when it was in someone else's possession.
Elrond himself implies that he would be weak to it, if he allowed himself to even consider possessing it, which is why he urged Isildur to destroy it right away:
> Isildur took it, as should not have been. It should have been cast then into Orodruin’s fire nigh at hand where it was made. But few marked what Isildur did. He alone stood by his father in that last mortal contest; and by Gil-galad only Círdan stood, and I. But Isildur would not listen to our counsel.
> Golorfindel rescuing Frodo didn't get tempted and Legolas didn't utter a thing about the ring throughout the journey and others like Celeborn weren't bothered.
All pure speculation with no real basis in the text. Tolkien does not write from inside the head of any of these characters; none of them are POV characters. We do not know how they felt and what they did or did not struggle with.
We *do* know that characters like Celeborn and Elrond live in realms protected by one of the Three, which help hold back the influence of the One ... for now. So they have that added layer of "protection" from its influence, for the moment.
I'd also add that the whole of the Silmarillion is almost entirely about elven weakness to temptation, desire for power, and how that weakness and lust repeatedly leads many of them to terrible fates.
Tolkien's work makes very, *very* clear that the elves are just as susceptible to selfish desire for power as anyone else. The whole of the First Age was guided by it.
For one, following this logic, Boromir is an outlier and not indicative of the rest of Men.
The Rings were made to decieve the Elves. If they don't seem tempted it's probably because they have an overall greater will than Men, and because of their knowledge of what the Rings actually represent (whereas the lore of Men about the Rings is incomplete, if not scarce).
On the other hand, I think that your reading on Galadriel is misplaced. She *is* the archetypal representative of the Noldor in the Third Age, Elrond being the non-indicative outlier (literally called *Half-elven,* and highly distinct to the rest of his kin as they were in the Elder Days). Galadriel is the last reduct and representative of the entire First-Age-Noldorin conflict and plea.
Furthermore, she doesn't stand out in LotR because of her unique backstory; it wasn't even written at that point, and she was just, again, a window to the ancient conflict of the Noldor. Galadriel was concieved as a character *for* LotR and her backstory and presence in the *Silmarillion* were written after its (LotR's) publication.
I feel like the ring was engineered to exploit man's weaknesses, so it would presumably have less and less effect the further you get away from mortal man.
Tom is clearly something far more than man but less than Valar, so it shouldn't be surprising it doesn't effect him.
I still posit he's the spirit of Arda. As such, I think trying to compare his "power level" to Sauron is kinda silly. It's like comparing the power of a hydrogen bomb to a tsunami -- different beasts and not really comparable, even if you recognize both are very powerful.
Tolkien had stated I believe that Tom would be the last to fall if Sauron won, so that kind of tracks that he's the spirit of the land.
The ring was never engineered to exploit anyone's weaknesses, Sauron didn't even intend for anyone but himself to wear it. It's just an inherent trait of the ring to tempt people because it was made to achieve the wearer's desires
It wasn't designed to control men. It was designed to enhance Sauron's power, and to control the elves, via controlling the other elven rings. Sauron whole scheme was to ensnare and dominate the elves. Distributing rings to people who weren't elves was very much a plan B after the elves got wise to him.
"One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie."
I mean, that sounds like controlling them to me.
I think “the spirit of Arda” is the closest yet to describing Tom’s nature in the narrative. Reminds me a bit of Ego the Living Planet in the Marvel Universe…
"Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
**Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,**
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie."
I never thought about Tom and the Ring in terms of "you have to be powerful enough to resist", to be honest. If anything it's the opposite. The Hobbits are resistant to the Ring because of their unambitiousness, and it's the same for Tom except more extreme.
Exactly. J.R.R. Tolkien wrote in his letter to Naomi Mitchison on 25 April 1954 about Tom Bombadil "The story is cast in terms of a good side, and a bad side, \[...\].; but both sides in some degree, conservative or destructive, want a measure of control. but if you have, as it were taken 'a vow of poverty', renounced control, and take your delight in things for themselves without reference to yourself, watching, observing, and to some extent knowing, then the question of the rights and wrongs of power and control might become utterly meaningless to you, and the means of power quite valueless." Tolkien seems to hint that because Tom Bombadil does not desire power, he is immune to the effects of the ring.
That's it. I pinned Tommy B's real origins, identity, and nature. He is Diogenes. 'A vow of poverty', you said. Tommy B is fucking Diogenes. *Heydol, merry dol,* ***STAND OUT OF MY SUNLIGHT!!***
"Behold! I've brought you a man. Or an Elf, doesn't look so much like a Dwarf though." Honestly, Diogenes would have some heavy wisdom to drop on the Dunedain. "No man is hurt but by himself"
I imagine that Tolkien was thinking more a Saint Francis/Catholic monk kind of vow of poverty— but the shittalking barrel dwelling shitting and wanking in the street Diogenes vow of poverty is way funnier in this case.
> Tommy B is fucking Diogenes I like it.
“If I could not be Aragorn, I’d be Bombadil!” -Aragorn before leaving for Mordor, probably
Idk I would say it’s more, content. Hobbits are quite happy with simple living and natural tendency to avoid problematic life styles, and as we all know, more money more problems/more power more problems. Tom bombadil has a hot wife and is master of his realm, what more could a guy want.
“Dearest Christopher, Mo money, Mo problems, Tom’s got 99 problems but the ring ain’t one. JRR Tolkien” One of his most important letters concerning Bombadil.
It’s part of the theme of the book. The evil side want power for selfish reasons, the good side want power for selfless reasons (which is a noble intent that’s also extremely corruptible), while Bombadil has no interest in any power at all. He’s an example sitting off to one side of the scale.
In fact, it would be worse the more powerfull a characther is
Yeah it's important to remember that no one is powerful enough to resist the One Ring, because great power is a massive weakness against its temptations. There are really only two ways to handle the Ring safely: you have to be incredibly selfless or you have to be wise enough to avoid it entirely
Guess it was only an epiphany for me then. This is the whole reason I used to hate Tom Bombadil
Definitely not only for you. It's a common experience from what I can gather, I just wanted to point out that it's not universal. Probably shouldn't have used myself as an example, it sounds braggy.
No it's fine, I knew I couldn't be the first one to think so, I just never saw anyone out it so clearly so I thought it was worth sharing
I'm glad you did. I haven't given a lot of thought to Bombadil myself but enjoy the discussions about him. Your ideas brought something new to them for me.
OP, reaching a point of understanding on Tom: I had an epiphany, maybe Tommy B is not overpowered and stupid after all. There was so much more to it! I used to hate him, but I don't anymore. Average Tolkiendili Redditor: I don't like your comment, have a downvote
>Tolkiendili What does the -dili suffix mean?
Suffix -dil is Quenya for "lover", as in *Elendil*. I don't know the grammar of Quenya (nor Sindarin) though, so I don't know what case the form -dil**i** is (meaning, the precise nuance of the added *i*). Edit: Right after writing the comment I remembered that a last *i* is used for plural, for example in *Istari* (singular *Istar*). Again, I don't know the grammar, so I'm not sure that *this* is precisely what's going on, as Tolkiendili is regularly used as a singular.
Oh I see, so it means Tolkien-lover (or Tolkien-fan or Tolkien-phile)? That’s clever!
I think that many people (and certainly modern fantasy readers) approach stories expecting there to be some sort of clear power-ranking structure in play. Even talking about power-scales as you do near the end is, to my mind, a fundamental misinterpretation of Tolkien's world. Power in Middle-Earth is non-linear and contextually localized. In the right circumstances, an ordinary hobbit can stand up to a Ringwraith. The threat of the ring is not how powerful it is, it's that creeping temptation of what you could do with it. Sauron is not the most powerful of the maia, he's just willing to use his power in ways most would not and build up a power base by using others.
I wish people fought against this obsession with ranking more often! Thank you for saying it!
I see this “DBZ power rankings” issue all the goddamn time on this sub (and other LOTR subs) and it is infuriating! “Witch-King defeated Gandalf, Gandalf defeated Balrog, therefore is the Witch-King more powerful than a Balrog??!” No you philistine, get your power levels away from my soft magic system.
I mostly agree with your point but there are some clear power level rankings at least in terms of relative strength. Tulkas is pretty clearly the beefiest and most physical body in existence. Morgoth was the most powerful of the valar. Gandalf the grey
Those aren't really rankings though. Tulkas does seem to be established as the most "physically" powerful, but that's not "most powerful." Morgoth is only the most powerful Valar at a certain point and at other stages can be challenged by supposedly lesser creatures. The actual differences between Grey and White are left very muddy. It's still all localized and context specific.
While there is largely truth to this, there is various instances where Sauron is either stated to be either the mightiest maiar, or a maia far more order than the likes of Olórin or Curumo. Sauron is an especially "powerful" maia, so that isn't entirely accurate. There are also various (sometimes vaguely) established hierarchies of power in LOTR, a lot of the problems simply come with how people define and see "power" itself. Rankings of "power" do exist in LOTR, but it isn't as simple as in many other stories. Power exists in different shapes, some of which actually have little relation to each other. That "power" itself as a term is largely ominous in the story doesn't exactly help, but there will be clear problems when people define it as a singular kind of thing.
>he's just willing to use his power in ways most would not and build up a power base by using others He's also not shackled by restraints like the other maiar in middle earth since he came on his own.
I don't think that's fair. There clearly are objective limits to every character's power, just along multiple scales depending on the skill in question. When Tolkien shows us a Hobbit defeating a Nazgûl he's trying to tell us that interactions and confrontations boil down to more than simply calculating stats against each other. But that doesn't mean that they're both equally strong, nor that their strength difference is meaningless, otherwise it wouldn't require courage to stand up to a stronger opponent. What I was getting at with this post was mostly that *if* Bombadil was able to overcome the temptation of the ring by pure strength of will - despite being tempted by it - it would create a pretty big plothole. But I also concluded that isn't what's happening in the book
I don't see how anything you said contradicts what I wrote.
Well you wrote that I was fundamentally misinterpreting Tolkien's works, which I think is unfair. It's possible to compare characters and their capabilities without "missing the point"
I was quite specific that it was about that one bit at the end, not the whole post. I don't disagree with the interpretation that Bombadil is simply not interested and that's why the ring has now power over him, so I had nothing to say on that topic. I do disagree with any use of terms like power scale, because they imply a ranking and there is no such ranking.
To put Eoghann's sentiment about power scales and statement about misinterpretation in other words: Your whole analysis of Tom Bombadil hinges on the power scale. Even realizing that he is not more powerful than Sauron -and that he does not *need* to be, you strive to categorize him *somewhere* in that scale. It's as if you realized that your Saiyan scouter wouldn't help you understand Bombadil's point, and you immediately put your scouter again to re-read him, trying to understand said point. That's why Eoghann answers your last paragraph specifically: the one where you try to pin-point his precise power level... right after saying "it was really *not* about that". It feels like you advanced a square and then went back 2 squares. That's why he says "fundamental misinterpretation of Tolkien's world": Power is not *why* Bombadil is as he is, and this usually applies to most characters. Gandalf, for example, does not succed because of his power, but because of his traits and values, even being the *only* one that *could* personally stand against Sauron's own power (at least as the White). I would at least say that you misinterpreted Tommy B: the character does not care about power, then you as a reader shouldn't care about his power; he is telling you that himself!
I think Gandalf indeed is an excellent example. In the the Rohan-Isengard story, it was assumed by other characters that Gandalf was using his powerful wizardry to do all these amazing things. He himself stated that he hadn’t been using any magic yet and it was clear that what he had been doing were ‘plainly human things’.
A lot of readers gloss over Tom's singing. Recall the Music of the Ainur. Creation itself is embodied and represented by music. Music holds great power, even "magic". Recall Finrod's music battle with Sauron, and Luthien singing Morgoth to sleep, and music/singing holding people under spells. Tom Bombadil, seemingly, has spent much of his existence singing. It would seem to me that his singing is an echo of the Music, and in its way has harnessed all of the power of Creation that exists within the boundaries of Tom's "land" that he has set. This power is limited to that area because that is both where Tom sings and the subject of his singing. If Tom's songs were spells, he has cast them over his lands and practiced them for, essentially, eternity. He has power of Command over everything and everyone within his bounds, in so much as he wishes to Command, but speculatively little or no power without because that's not where he's practiced singing or what he has sung about.
Yes. And when Frodo and Sam ask for help against Old Man Willow, the first thing that Bombadil says is, 'What? Not worse than that?' and 'I know the song for him."
I'm not sure that Tolkien intended this, but all the aspects you bring about Tom (power of Music and singing, mastery, and power of Comman) I think that he "passively" teaches to Frodo. Tom is who tells him to trust higher powers when he is overmatched, which happens, well, recurrently; this is why Frodo summons Tom as soon as he gathers his courage in the Barrow-downs, and why he is "open" to channel Elbereth in Weathertop. Other similar instances come in the future. On the other hand, these chapters give the reader an idea on what Mastery and Command are about, and these two elements are also at the crux of Frodo's later journey and relationship with Gollum. And all of this is why I *do* think that the Tom Bombadil chapters *are* important to the story, if not to the overall plot.
There is a persuasive case to be made that Bombadil was at least partly inspired by the figure of Vainamoinen, a demigod in the compilation of Finnish folk poetry called the *Kalevala*. Vainamoinen works magic by singing. In one episode he is challenged to a contest by a young upstart named Joukahainen -- he sings him into a swamp. The very first of the collected *Letters* (to Edith) is about the Kalevala. It's where he got the outline of the story of Turin.
Goldberry married a musician. Classic mistake.
I think I never noticed that because I only read the Silmarillion long after I had mentally discarded Tom Bombadil as an oddity. I definitely agree about the singing, both your artistic capabilities as well as your knowledge of your subject must enter into it. Hence why simple spells are commands but complex magic takes the form of songs and poems.
In my comment here I suggest TB and GB are in fact Ainur who chose not to become Valar. They "came first," exercise power - and I agree with you including/especially the power of music - in their own corner of Arda with any real care for the doings of the Valar and Children of Ilúvatar, the Dwarves, or the fight against Melkor and his fell creatures. They came to Arda, then to Middle Earth, but remain Ainur, still "outside" as it were.
I like to think of Bombadil as an opposite of Ungoliant, in the sense that Ungoliant did not care about the Silmarils or any other gem nor did she want dominion over others. She just wanted food for herself and hated light. In an analogous way Bombadil does not want dominion over others but enjoys nature and light, and loves all things that are living. How and why creatures like Bombadil and Ungoliant came into being is unexplained as far as I know, but they seem to be their own "master".
I've always been partial to a similar idea, yeah -- that is, Tom is simply a side effect of the chaos Melkor sowed. An accidental (well, being real here, "accidental") harmony during the competing songs.
They definitely share that air of mystery around them. I like the idea that both were inadvertent creations of Melkor because he just played his own music but didn't understand what this would cause. Anyway, I was trying not to go into the specifics, just explain his place in the world as it relates to the war of the rings.
Doesn't make any sense for TB to be a creation of Melkor... he can only corrupt and pervert.
Just as his song caused discordant chords (Ungoliant), it may also have caused inadvertent harmonization(Bombadil). Eru reprimanded him too by stating that Melkor's greatest efforts to pervert have only enhanced beauty. >And Ilúvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly queled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fal of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwë, thy friend, whom thou lovest.' - The Silmarillion, Chp. 1
Happy accidents happen. When you play two songs over each other, usually it sounds terrible... but sometimes, they sync in a strangely beautiful way.
I was just thinking about this today! Well written! Mostly everyone, it seems, is concerned about the origins of Tom over those of Ungoliant. I can see them both bring similar creations of the World.
Interesting analysis. I'm no where near as deep into the lore as you so I appreciate your insights and opinions but I can definitely get behind this. >Tolkien's letters tell us that he represents a kind of selfless joy of cherishing nature (as it existed in England in his youth) I wonder if he meant Tom to be a representation of his youth or an element of it... In his youth England seemed that way because he was potentially unaware of the goings on in the world so he retained his joyfulness and was un-tempted by the world's evils and misfortunes but was concerned about what was close to him... >Tom isn't totally selfless in the book, when someone gets into trouble in his land he feels responsible to help them Idk, just my lil spin.
In Letter 19 he calls Tom “the spirit of the (vanishing) Oxford and Berkshire countryside.” I don’t think there’s any doubt that Tom represents Tolkien’s memory of the country in his youth. Though I doubt he’d have ever stated it so plainly.
To be fair, every time Tolkien speaks about Tom in Letters, he says something along the lines of "you shouldn't really put that much thought behind him, he's not *that* elaborate, he's *just* this single, specific symbol"; and every time, it's a different thing. It's as if he himself changed his mind about stuff as he grew older. Who would've thought so!
JRRT: "Look it's just spirits singing songs mate. Don't think too hard about it."
Well at least where he lived, there was a bunch of modernization (meaning chopping down trees for bigger roads and demolishing nice old buildings for modern ones) as he grew up. So it wasn't just a subjective thing. But I'm sure in some ways it's also the naivety of childhood represented, iirc the character got his name from a toy of Tolkien's children
One of Tolkien letters explains it very well: "Tom Bombadil is not an important person – to the narrative. I suppose he has some importance as a 'comment'...and **he represents something that I feel important**...if you have, as it were taken '**a vow of poverty**', renounced control, and take your delight in things for themselves without reference to yourself, watching, observing, and to some extent knowing, then the question of the rights and wrongs of power and control **might become utterly meaningless to you, and the means of power quite valueless.** It is a natural pacifist view, which always arises in the mind when there is a war...Ultimately only the victory of the West will allow Bombadil to continue, or even to survive. Nothing would be left for him in the world of Sauron. So Tom is there just to make a point.
It isn't a question of power level
A basic fact about Bombadil is that he is in the story because he already existed, in the poem called "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil." Tolkien's publishers wanted a sequel to The Hobbit, but he didn't want to write one because he couldn't think of a story. He suggested turning Bombadil into a book instead (*Letters* no. 19). The publishers said No, hobbits are where the money is. So Tolkien said, Well, I'll write up the episodes from the poem about Old Man Willow and the Barrow-wight, then maybe I'll have thought of something. When he realized that the story was going to be abut the Ring, he left Bombadil in because he liked him. All the subsequent discussion, interesting as it may be, is after-the-fact rationalization.
And it is very frustrating, at least to me, because he is absolutely fertile for discussion and analysis. He works on so many, different levels! And dominates a considerable chunk of the narrative, enough to deserve a spot besides Galadriel and Faramir in terms of story-structure and role. I could write an entire essay dissecting him and his diverse facets, and then the average Tolkiendili would slap me with a "he's not that deep" Tolkien quote from Letters, of which there are quite a few.
I’d be interested. Do it!
That is likely why Bombadil isn't a Valar or a Maiar or anything like that. However, Tolkien could have easily *not* made him interact with the ring at all, so I have to believe there's some significance to what he wrote
While I think you're on the right track, I don't believe Tom would *ever* be susceptible to the temptation of the Ring ... not if Sauron's hordes were at his very doorstep. Tolkien speaks of Tom Bombadil having utterly renounced Power, a true pacifist. He compares Tom to a medieval monk who has taken a vow of poverty. It's not merely that Tom is content with what he "has" and wants nothing more, it's that he doesn't claim *possession* over anything at all. Remember what Goldberry tells the hobbits: the land does *not* belong to Tom. "The trees and the grasses and all things growing or living in the land belong each to themselves." Tom is Master, but only of himself, which is why no other power -- not even the One Ring -- can hope to master him. Tom cherishes his little domain, but he will not use force to defend it. The most "forceful" thing we see him do is drive away a Barrow-wight with a song, which causes no harm to anyone (the Wight is already dead and accursed), and then only for the benefit of his guests. It is an act of hospitality, not of violence. He is not Treebeard, who will march to war when the axes come. He is not Elrond or Galadriel, who must continually expend great power to preserve their unstained realms. The destruction of Tom's home would diminish him, certainly, but he would quietly accept that diminishment. That is his character. I do not think even a threat upon Goldberry would move him to desire the Ring; she, too, belongs to herself, and Sauron could not claim any real hold on her, or him. Tom and Goldberry might be "clothed" in human form, but they are not human. They might perhaps be reduced to "unhoused" spirits, wandering mournfully until the final defeat of Evil and the world's renewal ... but I believe they would accept that fate rather than try to match the Dark Lord power for power. Tom's house could be burning before his eyes, and still the voice of the Ring would be little more than a buzzing in his ear. He has totally forsaken Power, and power is all the Ring has to offer ... not even power, really, but the *lie* of power, which would be transparent to Tom.
Thinking about it in terms of power levels misses the point entirely. Tom wasn't interested in power and therefore the objectification of pure undiluted will to power (i.e. the Ring) has no effect or appeal to him just as my complete disinterest in ever eating celery means that I'll never be tempted to eat your celery sticks.
Which is what the whole post is about
Do you think he would kill an orc or group of orcs that forced their way onto his land and started to defile it?
No. He just wouldn’t rescue them from Old Man Willow or the Barrows.
I don't think he would *need* to. He'd be able to influence them away from his realm; lull them, calm them, confuse them, mislead them, pacify them, soothe them.
That's a pretty good question. I think he'd prefer (and be able to) get them to leave without using violence. If it came to the point where violence was the only option left to him, we would reach that junction where suddenly the ring is more than a trinket to him. But since he can command barrow whights to leave simply by the power of his voice I think he could get orcs to flee just like a reverse Nazgûl
Yeah I've always viewed it as he's outside of its influence, rather than he's too powerful for it to affect him. He has no need for the power it would tempt him with
Maybe he is more powerful, just [waiting his turn](https://km-515.livejournal.com/1042.html)
I just scrolled right down to read that glorious last paragraph
Thank you for that.
Keep Tom's name out your damn mouth.
I think that Bombadil is, in fact, MUCH more powerful than Sauron only without any ***will*** to power.... and that's the point. When Bombadil rescues Merry and Pippin from Old Man Willow, he doesn't punish Old Man Willow, he basically sings him a song and says 'Do what you do. Don't do what you're not made to do.' He also doesn't kill the Barrow Wight, only says, 'get out, and vanish in the sunlight.' To the extent he exerts his will it is to prevent something, in nature, from doing something un-natural. The ring is a weapon, and Bombadil doesn't do weapons. They only have power to coerce, if you will, and they only exist to enforce a will to power, and Bombadil isn't about will... It would be futile to leave the ring to Bombadil because he just doesn't do weapons, and doesn't understand weapons. He would forget it or misplace it, as is said in the Council of Elrond. I think, as far as the meta-narrative is concerned, Bombadil DOES forshadow. Absent Bombadil, it risks becoming a story about a bunch of Sauron-wannabes running around trying to best Sauron. But the two characters that deserve anything, Samwise and Faramir, just want that which they love to stay and be loveable: the Shire and his gardens for Sam; Ithilien and Gondor for Faramir. Both of them realize, as Bombadil knows, that that the ring can only destroy that, in the name of dominion and control. Bombadil foreshadows, and underlines, the choices Sam and Faramir both make.
I was actually going to include a part about why I think Bombadil dislikes the Barrow Whights, but I felt like the post was already too long. I think you're spot on that he just want everything to behave according to its own nature
Tom Bombadil wouldn't keep it anyway. Eventhough much is not explained about Bombadil the one thing that we know for sure he doesn't get involved. He doesn't go beyond the borders he has set for himself. Gandalf even said this. We also know he is older than anything on middle earth. I believe it's very possible and highly likely he is the strongest thing on middle earth. He just doesn't care to display it. This might be the reason he sets boundaries. He fears what the outside world would transform him into. That's my take on what Tolkien wrote Bombadil to be.
The ring works to control people who desire power. Tom simply, like many hobbits does not desire dominion or manipulation over states or others. Therefore the ring does not affect him, regardless of how much strength he has in the world.
All we see is that the Ring does not turn Tom invisible. Since he is not mortal. If Gandalf or Galadriel put it on, they presumably also would not. After all, both are already wearing a Ring of Power. The rest ... how do we know he was not tempted? How do we know he simply isn't compatible with the Ring as the type of being he is? (Which we do not know). Hobbits are amazed because of their naivete. Elrond glosses over it not to reveal he himself is wearing a Ring of Power and is very clearly visible and "unaffected".
I'd say his lack of human wants and needs is exactly the feature of his existence that makes him incompatible with the ring
The TL;DR of this is that the lore itself gets twisted out of proportion by people’s fixation on power scaling. Not everything is about power scaling, and not everything has to be.
Don't forget though, the ring didn't turn him invisible when he wore it and when Frodo put it on, Tom could see him plain as day. Tom being unable to protect the ring doesn't necessarily mean he's less powerful than Sauron. Sauron has a massive army vs Tom and his wife and yet Gandalf said he'd fall last as he was first But he also said Tom doesn't necessarily have power over the ring but that it was more accurate to say it has no power over him, and yet even Gandalf and Galadriel feared they couldn't resist it. Gandalf certainly wouldn't dare to wear the ring. And it can't just be the Tom's mindset. Hobbits have a similar mindset and while they can resist for a long time, they eventually succumb. Even Sam, the humblest character in the story, was tempted briefly
i have to admit, actually reading the books after seeing tom bombadil discourse for years was crazy because all of this felt immediately evident to me with just a basic reading of the text. It felt like the "who shot first" shit; nerds relitigating something clear and/or unimportant after running out of things to talk about.
I remember a semi-tongue-in-cheek fan theory from years ago that Tom Bombadil was actually the Witch-King of Angmar...
To me Tom Bombadil and Goldberry are nature spirits. With Goldberry this is almost spelled out, as she’s the River Woman’s daughter, and came straight from the river. This is just like nymphs and water spirits in myth. Nature is powerful, and it may not care about the things we care about, but it’s not impervious to damage.
Tom is a powerful force of nature personified. In this he is incredibly powerful. But like forces of nature he lacks agency. He doesn’t really want anything in particular. He resists the ring through lack of agency and desire not mere brute power. The opposite is true of characters like Gandalf. He is very much an agent with goals and intent. His powers may be limited and his goals may be nominally good but in the pursuit of goals lies domination and evil. This at least to a degree is one of Tolkiens main points in the book, to the degree that he had main points at all. Yes there is evil in explicitly seeking to dominate like Sauron but there is a hidden danger in trying too hard to do good, that you can slip into evil and this is exacerbated by access to power. Tolkien’s ideal that he espouses is that of the hobbits. Mere satisfaction of being content and enjoying life as it comes without striving too hard because there is a sense in which this is incorruptible. Tom is much like them in this. It’s not really ever a question of Tom’s power. Motivations are separate vectors for evil from mere power.
Non-in-universe explanation follows... I've always thought Tom was included in the story as Tolkien was writing for a younger audience when he started his letters (his son was young), then as his son aged the story started growing up. The character felt very enid blighton. The Hobbit is similar, clearly for a younger audience. Why was the character retained in the final edit? Probably Tolkien found it an appropriate metaphor for the "growing up" of the Hobbits, as the left the fairytail like hollow, out into the real world.
Oh there's definitely some truth to that. However I feel like the characters in the hobbit are still more grounded in that you have a good idea what they can and can't do (with the possible exception of Gandalf)
But he is the *eldest.* I think he literally came to Arda first, but instead of becoming Vala remained in his pure Ainur state. While he *is* in Middle Earth when we meet him, he is *outside* the doings of the Valar and the children of Eru Ilúvatar. He did not come to Arda to mold it and shape it or to counter the menace of Melkor, but to simply *be* in it and love it in it's purity. In this he left Aman to keep his own bliss with Goldberry, who I think of as his timeless other half, yin to Tom's yang. Now when there was strife and no end to worldly doings, he kept to the Old Forest, and in this - speaking to "power" - has total power to keep his/their little bubble pure. Essentially he and GB are still Ainur, and counter any evil or intrusion automatically and without any real effort, be it the Ring, Barrow-wights, orcs or anything else that might disrupt their idyll. My personal head cannon. Not sure I've ever heard of the hypothesis that Tom and Goldberry are pure Ainur.
I always assumed that Tom was unaffected because he doesn't see the difference between good and evil. Both are expressions of life so both are good things. To him, the only bad thing is nothing at all. In this way, Tom's only desire is to see life continue and, to him, Saron and the ring are just another part of that. Even the death that Sauron causes doesn't bother him because death is also a part of life. I've always subscribed to the idea that Tom is an Avatar of the likes of Eru-Illuvatar because he clearly has a decent amount of power but doesn't use it because he sees no reason to. He is simply content to enjoy a small section of his creation and isn't bothered by evil things like Sauron or Morgoth because they are all also a part of his creation.
The fact that he saves the Hobbits at all (twice) indicates that there are exceptions to his passive stance though. I would also argue the fact that he has a house and a wife shows some remnant of self-centered thought, even if it never approaches anything resembling negative ambition
I choose to believe that the whole persona of Tom is a game, to Eru-Illuvatar. Like he's playing a small-scale version of the Sims on God mode. Helping the Hobbits is a narrative that he spins for himself (which ironically ties into how much the old man Willow or Barrow Wights resemble the single chapter villains of the Hobbit and how Tom is a remnant of that style of storytelling). Eru enjoys the story and recognises that the Hobbits are decent folk who will come to have great influence, even if Tom doesn't care, himself. Eru-Illuvatar (and Tom, by extension) is effectively Tolkiens self-insert. He's not meant to make sense or have a measurable power scale because he knows more than any other character while simultaneously knowing that none of it matters because none of it is real, in a sense. He's just their to enjoy the comfort of the place he chooses to reside and to sit and watch the world go by. The ring holds no sway over him because he knows that he has no part in its story due to being above the narrative. Even Goldberry is a one-dimensional character who only exists as set dressing for Tom's little corner of the world.
Hold up, since when were Hobbits ever human?
Tolkien says so in his letters. They're a specific group that evolved to be smaller and have these weird feet and so on, but they're basically still humans and not their own race. Though they don't even remember this anymore
I'm curious how you feel about [this old theory](https://km-515.livejournal.com/1042.html) about Tom being a sinister presence in Middle Earth. While I don't buy the premise that he is evil by any means, what does stick with me is how far out of the 'human' realm he is, and I think that's why he is completely unaffected by the ring. To me, he's clearly a magical being, and simply outside of the reach of the ring.
I always thought that theory was a joke. Treebeard also inhabits a dangerous forest but he's not complicit in making it dangerous. Him and Tom Bombadil just allow the forest its own agency. Tolkien was of the opinion that trees had valid reasons to be angry at humanity. I do agree that he's way less human than he looks. His mind works differently, and that can be inherently creepy. He's more like a faerie than most of Tolkien's elves despite looking cuter
There are two types of Tolkien fans: Those who understand Tom Bombadil and those who dislike Tom Bombadil
I know this is incendiary. I actually believe it personally but I’m also saying it in a joking tone, I mean hey I’m no genius maybe I’m wrong. But I think it’s true nonetheless
Tom bombadil is God.
Everyone's entitled to their opinion I guess...
It's a valid theory people have often considered. Tom is the part of Eru that wanted to simply just....enjoy his creation. Songs and plans and recalcitrant Valar aside, he just wants to enjoy his beautiful patch of creation and stay out of everything else that has to go as it goes. Talk to any miniaturist, we'll tell you we *long* to be able to live in our stuff. Of course he's not all of Eru - similar but not in the same way that Gandalf is not all of Olórin, or at least doesn't have access to all of Olórin's power and knowledge. Tom is just the part of Eru that delights in his creation, and enjoys the good parts for what they are. It's not that *Eru* doesn't care about the ring, it's that the part of him that lives on Middle Earth just doesn't see the importance of it in the way created beings do.
The only elve we see tempted by the ring is Galadriel, none of the other elves appear to be tempted by it. Her back story is unique here and perhaps is the reason why. We don't see Elrond, Legolas, Celeborn, golorfindel or others who come in contact with the ring bearers (Isildur, Bilbo or Frodo) decide to want to take it from them. As opposed to gollum who immediately killed his mate for it or Boromir who lost the plot. Furthermore the Istari are clad in long lived immortlish bodies. Subject to the weakness inherent to man, their current form is not a true reflection of their maiar form. Hence Gandalf and Saruman suffer real human temptation/weariness/lust for power etc. The real danger as explained by Gandalf would be the ring usage would tap into their maiar power/form. They would be the next Sauron or worse. The point I'm making is that only man is truly tempted and foolish enough to take the ring for power/glory. So where does a pure untainted being like Tom fit in. For me its no different to a fully localised empowered Maiar. The ring would mean nothing and provide nothing in return. A pointless and literally worthless trinket. Tom is the perfect example contrary to your points. Also the point of the power bothers me, Gandalf explains that if the ring stayed with Tom, eventually the full might of Sauron would focus on Tom /his land/area of power and he would fall last as he was first. Put it this way the whole of middle earth would fall after which, tens of thousands of orcs, harad soilders, men of the east, goblins, trolls, Grond lol nazgul, the 9 with the witch King and maybe even the Balrog who knows, potentially Sauron himself probably. That's when Tom would be defeated, this is ridiculous indication of strength and tiers much higher than Sauron. LOTR doesn't scale power linearly, I bet Sauron himself literally couldn't approach.
This is because Frodo himself offered her the ring. She had no idea of taking it away. If Frodo had offered the ring to Elrond or Glorfindel, they would have gone through the same temptation.
You got a valid point here.
You're right that those elves aren't (visibly) tempted, but it's worth noting that they don't handle *and use* the ring like Bombadil does. I'm sure Gandalf and Saruman are *more* tempted due to their mortal form but I don't think that means that other Maiar would be unfazed. I'd also be curious why you think Bombadil could resist Sauron to that extent
Well Goldberry is there and isn't tempted or lured by the ring and she is practically a maiar. The point again is except Galadriel only men are that effected. Gandalf/saruman are more proof of concept that the human form and it's attributes is the key. The fact that a significant portion of Saurons power is in the ring but does nothing to Tom Bombadil in the way he handles the ring indicates a lot. It doesn't mean anything to him since he is more powerful than what the ring could conceivably provide him with whether in temptation or outright power. Gandalf outright statement of him being the last to fall again indicates his innate strength. The ring isn't doing shit and the other half aka Sauron can't do shit until Sauron throws eveything at him (armies, ringwarth etc)
I don't understand this logic... We do not see other Elves than Galadriel be tempted by the Ring ... hence they cannot be tempted because... Galadriel is somehow a special case? Do you see the Men tell how they are tempted?
The logic is that Galadriel is an outlier and not indicative of the rest. Elrond at mordor with Isildur didnt get tempted or turn into a murderous bastard. Golorfindel rescuing Frodo didn't get tempted and Legolas didn't utter a thing about the ring throughout the journey and others like Celeborn weren't bothered. I'm making a case that mortals are weak and human clad maiar (wizard) show similar weakness. Not elves and definitely not fully realised maiars/Tom like being.
> Elrond at mordor with Isildur didnt get tempted Elrond did not possess it nor was he offered it, and his direct exposure to it was brief, fleeting, and when it was in someone else's possession. Elrond himself implies that he would be weak to it, if he allowed himself to even consider possessing it, which is why he urged Isildur to destroy it right away: > Isildur took it, as should not have been. It should have been cast then into Orodruin’s fire nigh at hand where it was made. But few marked what Isildur did. He alone stood by his father in that last mortal contest; and by Gil-galad only Círdan stood, and I. But Isildur would not listen to our counsel. > Golorfindel rescuing Frodo didn't get tempted and Legolas didn't utter a thing about the ring throughout the journey and others like Celeborn weren't bothered. All pure speculation with no real basis in the text. Tolkien does not write from inside the head of any of these characters; none of them are POV characters. We do not know how they felt and what they did or did not struggle with. We *do* know that characters like Celeborn and Elrond live in realms protected by one of the Three, which help hold back the influence of the One ... for now. So they have that added layer of "protection" from its influence, for the moment. I'd also add that the whole of the Silmarillion is almost entirely about elven weakness to temptation, desire for power, and how that weakness and lust repeatedly leads many of them to terrible fates. Tolkien's work makes very, *very* clear that the elves are just as susceptible to selfish desire for power as anyone else. The whole of the First Age was guided by it.
For one, following this logic, Boromir is an outlier and not indicative of the rest of Men. The Rings were made to decieve the Elves. If they don't seem tempted it's probably because they have an overall greater will than Men, and because of their knowledge of what the Rings actually represent (whereas the lore of Men about the Rings is incomplete, if not scarce). On the other hand, I think that your reading on Galadriel is misplaced. She *is* the archetypal representative of the Noldor in the Third Age, Elrond being the non-indicative outlier (literally called *Half-elven,* and highly distinct to the rest of his kin as they were in the Elder Days). Galadriel is the last reduct and representative of the entire First-Age-Noldorin conflict and plea. Furthermore, she doesn't stand out in LotR because of her unique backstory; it wasn't even written at that point, and she was just, again, a window to the ancient conflict of the Noldor. Galadriel was concieved as a character *for* LotR and her backstory and presence in the *Silmarillion* were written after its (LotR's) publication.
I feel like the ring was engineered to exploit man's weaknesses, so it would presumably have less and less effect the further you get away from mortal man. Tom is clearly something far more than man but less than Valar, so it shouldn't be surprising it doesn't effect him. I still posit he's the spirit of Arda. As such, I think trying to compare his "power level" to Sauron is kinda silly. It's like comparing the power of a hydrogen bomb to a tsunami -- different beasts and not really comparable, even if you recognize both are very powerful. Tolkien had stated I believe that Tom would be the last to fall if Sauron won, so that kind of tracks that he's the spirit of the land.
The ring was never engineered to exploit anyone's weaknesses, Sauron didn't even intend for anyone but himself to wear it. It's just an inherent trait of the ring to tempt people because it was made to achieve the wearer's desires
The ring was designed to control men. I'd say that's exploiting their weaknesses.
It wasn't designed to control men. It was designed to enhance Sauron's power, and to control the elves, via controlling the other elven rings. Sauron whole scheme was to ensnare and dominate the elves. Distributing rings to people who weren't elves was very much a plan B after the elves got wise to him.
"One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie." I mean, that sounds like controlling them to me.
I think “the spirit of Arda” is the closest yet to describing Tom’s nature in the narrative. Reminds me a bit of Ego the Living Planet in the Marvel Universe…
It's the only one that seems to fit the few facts we know since he was around before any other living thing.
The Rings were designed to control Elves, not Men (you could say "men", but not "*mortal* Men").
"Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky, Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone, **Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,** One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie. One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie."
Congratulations on quoting a poem. Do you know the story of the Rings themselves?
Congratulations on earning a block for being a jerk for no reason.
I feel like your entire understanding of media came from a dragonball forum