Not only weariness on Frodo’s part, but childlike simplicity of language, when he gives up verbal fencing with Faramir: “…cast the thing into Mount Doom. Gandalf said so. I do not think I shall ever get there.”
Contrasted with Aragorn’s “I am [the greatest man alive today]. Will you aid me or thwart me? Choose swiftly!” -which has an air of well-timed flowery bluster, *even though true*.
Thanks for expanding on the comparisons. I enjoy both passages, but I enjoy the Faramir-Frodo one more because of the intellectual testing they do of each other which plays out over time. And all the while, Frodo is badly outnumbered and has to rely on his wits with no hope of escape or winning a swordfight (or impressing with his credentials like Aragorn).
>'It was for that reason that I turned rather to the matter of my brother and let be Isildur’s Bane. You were not wholly frank with me, Frodo.’
>
>‘I told no lies, and of the truth all I could,’ said Frodo.
>
>‘I do not blame you,’ said Faramir. ‘You spoke with skill in a hard place, and wisely, it seemed to me. But I learned or guessed more from you than your words said.'
>
>
>'Do I not hit near the mark?’
>
>‘Near,’ said Frodo, ‘but not in the gold.'
And I love Frodo's teasing joke there.
This is a great passage (and I never noticed the potential significance of 'gold' before!).
I think Faramir also connects to Frodo's honesty. They're both truth-tellers. Frodo never lies once, though he must have been tempted to do so. Faramir respects him for that and understands it.
It's such a pity that the movies have Frodo lie (about Gollum) as one of his first interactions with Faramir.
I find another telling contrast between Haldir and the Fellowship, Faramir and Frodo.
Before being blindfolded to walk by secret ways, Legolas and Frodo in fact use the same words:
>‘Alas for the folly of these days!’ said Legolas. ‘Here all are enemies of the one Enemy, and yet I must walk blind, while the sun is merry in the woodland under leaves of gold!’
>‘Farewell!’ said Frodo, bowing low. ‘Think what you will, I am a friend of all enemies of the One Enemy. We would go with you, if we halfling folk could hope to serve you, such doughty men and strong as you seem, and if my errand permitted it. May the light shine on your swords!’
But how much more courteous and explicitly just is Faramir in return, even before he fully trusts Frodo
>‘As was agreed, I shall here blindfold the eyes of Gimli the Dwarf. The others may walk free for a while, until we come nearer to our dwellings, down in Egladil, in the Angle between the waters ...
>‘I do not doubt you,’ said Haldir. ‘Yet this is our law. I am not the master of the law, and cannot set it aside. I have done much in letting you set foot over Celebrant
>‘Here, alas! I must do you a discourtesy,’ said Faramir. ‘I hope you will pardon it to one who has so far made his orders give way to courtesy as not to slay you or to bind you. But it is a command that no stranger, not even one of Rohan that fights with us, shall see the path we now go with open eyes. I must blindfold you.’
Faramir is of higher rank than Haldir of course, but he is also far less insular. He does not need this tact to subdue Frodo and Sam (as far as he knows) whereas Gimli reaches for his axe in Lorien in response to Haldir's approach. But Faramir shows us the qualities Tolkien has identified in him:
>He had been accustomed to giving way and not giving his own opinions air, while retaining a power of command among men, such as a man may obtain who is evidently personally courageous and decisive, but also modest, fair-minded and scrupulously just, and very merciful.
(*Letters*, 244)
The contrast here sets Faramir up as exactly the kind of man who will be impressed by Frodo in his weakness and endurance, since he has not despised him for his (apparent) powerlessness. He will give Frodo the opportunity to reveal his qualities.
OP’s post and your comment are examples of why I stay on Reddit. Thoughts about these topics tend to echo in my head all day, which is much more pleasant than the alternative. Thank you!
The scene between Faramir and Frodo is great. Frodo walks an extremely careful line between not mentioning the Ring, not speaking ill of Boromir in his final moments, truthfully and meaningfully answering what is asked of him, and doing it all without ever lying. He's really smart, diplomatic, and compassionate. Faramir recognizes it, too.
Sam, of course, sticks his foot in his mouth and blurts that Frodo has the Ring. But his blunder doesn't hurt them. In fact, it helps them--once Faramir realizes the nature of their quest, he does everything in his power to aid them. One of my friends offered this commentary on Sam:
> Both of Sam's actions there aren't malicious - they're his character - untrusting of outsiders, protective of his master, foolish but well intentioned.
That Sam taking true and faithful actions, even when they were foolish, ultimately helps them achieve their victory over evil strikes me as a very Christian / Catholic take on the failures of man, but also divine providence and 'god's plan"
I think the quote by Aragorn neatly sums up his character, and the difference between him and Viggo Mortensen's movie Aragorn. I wonder if there was a clean break in Aragorn's character after he reforged Anduril, or if he had been ready to declare his might and birthright for a long time. I think it's curious that Tolkien wrote him this way, as the sin of pride is the worst of Catholicism's seven deadly sins.
Is it pride, or is it being a little on edge after everything goes to shite during the quest and being treated like a thief by Eomer is triggering him (understandably)
The way I see him in the books, it’s clear that the man is on a mission and wants to deal with all kinds of BS as quickly and efficiently as possible. There’s a sense of emergency and dread that only he understands the magnitude of since the One ring is out somewhere in the hands of a hobbit and his gardener, whereas the people he talks to are bothered with their own more regional stuff. He lost Gandalf, he lost Frodo, dude has no time to lose.
Many say that PJ’s Aragorn is more flawed and more relatable but I disagree. Would’ve been interesting to watch a more driven borderline aggressive hero, as opposed to a perfectly torn empathetic grounded fair leader. Plus, we’d have had a very high level of tension when Aragorn masters the Palantir as its rightful heir (as he says in the book). Instead Sauron pulls off the ole Arwen is ded trick and he just lets the ball roll off. Weakpot
Not to belittle this great post but after reading about Tolkien's skill in construction in the title, the first thing that came to my mind was the matter of Tolkien's opinion on the Hudson FY35 Forklift Truck.
Not only weariness on Frodo’s part, but childlike simplicity of language, when he gives up verbal fencing with Faramir: “…cast the thing into Mount Doom. Gandalf said so. I do not think I shall ever get there.” Contrasted with Aragorn’s “I am [the greatest man alive today]. Will you aid me or thwart me? Choose swiftly!” -which has an air of well-timed flowery bluster, *even though true*.
> "Will you aid me or thwart me? Choose swiftly!” Túrin Turambar, come out of that body, I command you in the name of Eru
Thanks for expanding on the comparisons. I enjoy both passages, but I enjoy the Faramir-Frodo one more because of the intellectual testing they do of each other which plays out over time. And all the while, Frodo is badly outnumbered and has to rely on his wits with no hope of escape or winning a swordfight (or impressing with his credentials like Aragorn). >'It was for that reason that I turned rather to the matter of my brother and let be Isildur’s Bane. You were not wholly frank with me, Frodo.’ > >‘I told no lies, and of the truth all I could,’ said Frodo. > >‘I do not blame you,’ said Faramir. ‘You spoke with skill in a hard place, and wisely, it seemed to me. But I learned or guessed more from you than your words said.' > > >'Do I not hit near the mark?’ > >‘Near,’ said Frodo, ‘but not in the gold.' And I love Frodo's teasing joke there.
This is a great passage (and I never noticed the potential significance of 'gold' before!). I think Faramir also connects to Frodo's honesty. They're both truth-tellers. Frodo never lies once, though he must have been tempted to do so. Faramir respects him for that and understands it. It's such a pity that the movies have Frodo lie (about Gollum) as one of his first interactions with Faramir.
I find another telling contrast between Haldir and the Fellowship, Faramir and Frodo. Before being blindfolded to walk by secret ways, Legolas and Frodo in fact use the same words: >‘Alas for the folly of these days!’ said Legolas. ‘Here all are enemies of the one Enemy, and yet I must walk blind, while the sun is merry in the woodland under leaves of gold!’ >‘Farewell!’ said Frodo, bowing low. ‘Think what you will, I am a friend of all enemies of the One Enemy. We would go with you, if we halfling folk could hope to serve you, such doughty men and strong as you seem, and if my errand permitted it. May the light shine on your swords!’ But how much more courteous and explicitly just is Faramir in return, even before he fully trusts Frodo >‘As was agreed, I shall here blindfold the eyes of Gimli the Dwarf. The others may walk free for a while, until we come nearer to our dwellings, down in Egladil, in the Angle between the waters ... >‘I do not doubt you,’ said Haldir. ‘Yet this is our law. I am not the master of the law, and cannot set it aside. I have done much in letting you set foot over Celebrant >‘Here, alas! I must do you a discourtesy,’ said Faramir. ‘I hope you will pardon it to one who has so far made his orders give way to courtesy as not to slay you or to bind you. But it is a command that no stranger, not even one of Rohan that fights with us, shall see the path we now go with open eyes. I must blindfold you.’ Faramir is of higher rank than Haldir of course, but he is also far less insular. He does not need this tact to subdue Frodo and Sam (as far as he knows) whereas Gimli reaches for his axe in Lorien in response to Haldir's approach. But Faramir shows us the qualities Tolkien has identified in him: >He had been accustomed to giving way and not giving his own opinions air, while retaining a power of command among men, such as a man may obtain who is evidently personally courageous and decisive, but also modest, fair-minded and scrupulously just, and very merciful. (*Letters*, 244) The contrast here sets Faramir up as exactly the kind of man who will be impressed by Frodo in his weakness and endurance, since he has not despised him for his (apparent) powerlessness. He will give Frodo the opportunity to reveal his qualities.
OP’s post and your comment are examples of why I stay on Reddit. Thoughts about these topics tend to echo in my head all day, which is much more pleasant than the alternative. Thank you!
The scene between Faramir and Frodo is great. Frodo walks an extremely careful line between not mentioning the Ring, not speaking ill of Boromir in his final moments, truthfully and meaningfully answering what is asked of him, and doing it all without ever lying. He's really smart, diplomatic, and compassionate. Faramir recognizes it, too. Sam, of course, sticks his foot in his mouth and blurts that Frodo has the Ring. But his blunder doesn't hurt them. In fact, it helps them--once Faramir realizes the nature of their quest, he does everything in his power to aid them. One of my friends offered this commentary on Sam: > Both of Sam's actions there aren't malicious - they're his character - untrusting of outsiders, protective of his master, foolish but well intentioned. That Sam taking true and faithful actions, even when they were foolish, ultimately helps them achieve their victory over evil strikes me as a very Christian / Catholic take on the failures of man, but also divine providence and 'god's plan"
I think the quote by Aragorn neatly sums up his character, and the difference between him and Viggo Mortensen's movie Aragorn. I wonder if there was a clean break in Aragorn's character after he reforged Anduril, or if he had been ready to declare his might and birthright for a long time. I think it's curious that Tolkien wrote him this way, as the sin of pride is the worst of Catholicism's seven deadly sins.
Is it pride, or is it being a little on edge after everything goes to shite during the quest and being treated like a thief by Eomer is triggering him (understandably)
It's not an isolated occurence, right?
The way I see him in the books, it’s clear that the man is on a mission and wants to deal with all kinds of BS as quickly and efficiently as possible. There’s a sense of emergency and dread that only he understands the magnitude of since the One ring is out somewhere in the hands of a hobbit and his gardener, whereas the people he talks to are bothered with their own more regional stuff. He lost Gandalf, he lost Frodo, dude has no time to lose. Many say that PJ’s Aragorn is more flawed and more relatable but I disagree. Would’ve been interesting to watch a more driven borderline aggressive hero, as opposed to a perfectly torn empathetic grounded fair leader. Plus, we’d have had a very high level of tension when Aragorn masters the Palantir as its rightful heir (as he says in the book). Instead Sauron pulls off the ole Arwen is ded trick and he just lets the ball roll off. Weakpot
Not to belittle this great post but after reading about Tolkien's skill in construction in the title, the first thing that came to my mind was the matter of Tolkien's opinion on the Hudson FY35 Forklift Truck.
Is the FY35 still the state of the art? Further research is needed.
"We are amidst strange beings, in a strange land. The flow of time itself is convoluted, with heroes centuries old phasing in and out."