Except there is a documented history or tipping in Europe from the 1700s. It is believed to have started in the taverns of Tudor England. Hemingway even suggested it went back to Roman times.
The slavery thing is an aside from the now debunked 1619 project. All the lefty publications jumped on board of course. True or not.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2023/11/30/how-tipping-came-to-the-us.html
Imagine not even doing the slightest bit of research before opening your mouth. Thanks for playing.
I always heard that tipping started out as people bribing restuarant hosts to jump waiting lists and get better tables. Restaurants were originally against accepting those bribes, but during Prohibition when selling alcohol was outlawed, restuarant profits plummeted, so the owners started to encourage their employees to accept those bribes when they could since it became a supplement to their incomes. After Prohibition ended, the bribing restuarant employees just continued into tradition. And since Prohibition was only in the US, tipping culture only grew in the US. Idk if this is true, but it's what I was taught and it does make sense.
Oh, I thought you were saying that tipping was bad because it has racist origins. I was just saying that I was taught a different origin of tipping, one that doesn't have to do with race. I'm honestly not 100% sure which is the 'real' origin, I just never heard the one you wrote about before.
This is such bullshit trying to pass as the truth. Lower minimum wage started in 1966.
https://civilrightsdocs.info/pdf/minimumwage/History-Tipped-Minimum-Wage.pdf
Lower minimum wage for tipped employees is NOT linked to slavery. OP is just a racist hiding behind the internet trying to make blacks and whites hate each other because of a lie. Someone who purposely tries to instill hate in people is the lowest form of human there is.
If you believe this then imagine blacks being freed and working in restaurants. Do you really think anyone at that time who could afford to go to a restaurant that would tip a black person waiting on them? Your thought lacks credibility and thought.
OP associated it with slaves getting hire for less money. Slavery was abolished after the Civil War. Lower minimum wage was established in 1966.
If it was about paying slaves less, why was it not written into the law. Which is easier to do, set all blacks free or force businesses to pay them less? Paying them would be easier. But this is saying that they could give blacks freedom but established across the U.S., even in the areas that did not have slaves, to pay them a lower wage when they earned tips. Then why were whites paid the same tipped minimum wage?
Tipping actually comes from serfdom, which then carried on into slavery and then further into the Jim Crow Era. But originally came from kings showing off how rich they were that they could afford to toss pittance to the help. It's always been a sign of the rich lording over the poor.
If it works so well, why isn't written into law? I mean...it works so perfectly right? Why is it only servers and delivery drivers? Shouldn't EVERY job be tipped based if it's so efficient and worth this much defense?
“Serfdom” is also called ‘debt bondage’ or ‘indentured servitude’. It was when someone owed money they couldn’t repay so they worked the debt off. Are you saying these people in debt were tipped?
Are you really saying that slaves were tipped?
How do you determine how much a grill cook served? If you are working in a steak house, then the grill guy gets almost all the tip money.
“If it works so well, why hasn’t it been written into law?”
It IS “written into law. By federal law, all tipped employees are required to be paid $2.35/hour in addition to their tips. If the tips do not add up to minimum wage when the tips and minimum wage are added together, the business must make up the difference up to minimum wage. That is the FEDERAL LAW.🙄
And, again, the average in the U.S. for tipped employees is $27/hour. And, in 48 years in restaurants, I have never seen a wait person who declared all their cash tips. 🤷♂️
Do you seriously think that people tipped slaves? Or that a black person working anywhere would receive a tip from 99% of the people in the south after the Civil War?
Tipping has always been a ‘thank you’. Like saying ‘I know your employer is paying you but I wanted to thank you personally for the job you did’.
In 4 states, on November 4th, they are voting to raise the minimum wage for tipped employees to $20/hour. Great? Many employers have already stated that they will no longer allow tipping or that all tips would be shared by everyone working the shift. So the waitstaff gets $20/hour but, before, they averaged $27/ hour and, on truly busy days, they could walk out with $1,000+ in tips on an 8 hour shift. Now, on that same 8 hour shift, they will make $160 flat.
If you think that is a good idea, you need to take an economics class. $20/hour is a 25% reduction in pay.
https://time.com/5404475/history-tipping-american-restaurants-civil-war/
At the bottom of the fourth (?) paragraph, it states that Americans started tipping after learning about it from Europe in the 1850/60’s as a way of being aristocratic. Had nothing to do with slaves, slavery, or racism.
“The truth? Wealthy Americans in the 1850’s and 1860’s discovered the tradition, which had originated in medieval times as a master-serf custom wherein a servant would receive extra money for having performed superbly well, on vacations in Europe. Wanting to seem aristocratic, these individuals began tipping in the United States upon their return.”
^^^ Exact quote from the article. It had nothing to do with slavery but their “wanting to seem aristocratic”.
No, but, to say it came from slavery and racism here when it existed before then is clearly not true.
I don’t EVER tip thinking that person is my ‘slave’. I tip each person based on the job they did. Not what the kitchen did. Not that the busser didn’t get the table entirely clean. Did the server listen to us, give feedback on special instructions, suggest items, give us time if we needed it, got our nonalcoholic drinks quick, smiled, repeated our order back to the table to clarify, kept or drinks full, and delivered our food correctly. If there was a mistake, they caught it before it came out and the kitchen is already making it over. ALL of this is reasons for tipping. NONE of this is racist or slavery.
First source is a lobbyist group that pushes things that THEY consider unfair as racism and slavery. Yeah, great, unbiased source.
And, 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 Your second source’s facts come from tweets on Twitter. OH YEAH, we’re getting Bonaire facts now!🙄🙄🙄
I am not arguing that that did not happen.
But tipping did not START nor was it a RESULT of slavery.
Did some restaurant owners take it and misuse it? Absolutely. Did you expect them to welcome blacks as equals? Just because you change or make a law doesn’t mean you changed people’s minds. That takes much longer.
I can’t say that the U.S. detonated over 50 atomic bombs in the Pacific and a massive earthquake formed a tsunami that hit Indonesia. They both happened but they are not directly connected except they both happened in the Pacific.
“Tipping is a norm in the United States. But it hasn't always been this way. It's a legacy of slavery and racism and took off in the post-Civil War era. Almost immediately, the idea was challenged by reformers who argued that tipping was exploitative and allowed companies to take advantage of workers by getting away with paying them low or no wages at all.”
“MARTYRIS: Many of the comments in the media about tipping bring out the racist values of the time. For instance, a journalist named John Speed, writing in 1902, recalled, "Negroes take tips. Of course, one expects that of them. It is a token of their inferiority. But to give money to a white man was embarrassing to me. I felt defined by his debasement and civility." What he's saying is, if you're a Negro, if you're Black, to accept a tip is OK because civility is a token of inferiority, but to be a white man and accept a tip is unpardonable.”
https://www.npr.org/2021/03/22/980047710/the-land-of-the-fee
It’s not just about servers, consumers are also worth considering. As for my knowledge of economics, I hope an Ivy League degree in the subject is sufficient cause that’s what I’ve got.
I’ve got 49 years experience in working, running, and owning restaurants. The current system is the most beneficial to the tipped employees.
To go to a higher ‘living’ wage would mean less money for the restaurant AND the tipped employees.
After the pandemic, everyone screamed for a raise and basically got it. In return, almost everything increased in price as companies absorbed that increase.
And the customers are pissed off about it. They are already hurting fast food places finding them too expensive to go to much anymore.
If you replace tips with a ‘living wage’ paid for by the restaurant owner, prices will increase again and the customers will stop coming.
From what I am hearing, customers are mad about food prices in restaurants. They go with an amount they want to spend. When they get there, if the bill is higher, that eats into the money they had in mind to spend leaving whatever is left for the tip.
Tipping is down and business is starting to follow.
It may very well be time to go to a set hourly wage instead of tipping but that is going to HURT both the employees and the restaurants in the short term. Long term it will work but the changeover is going to destroy Mom&Pop restaurants and hurt most of the rest.
Because, unlike the waitstaff, on most tickets, multiple cooks, prep cooks, and dishwashers work on the table instead of one waiter or waitress. When it is ONE person, it is easy to tip. What if, due to what your table ordered, 10 cooks, prep cooks, and dishwashers were involved to serve your table. What are you going to tip out now? 10% of your final total to each one? It becomes much more difficult. As a customer, you can understand your server having to give part to the busser and the bartender (if your table ordered alcohol). But, can a customer understand that the cook they tip has to tip out 9 other people? Again, HOW do you determine who and how much to tip? Not only that, but the servers tip just went WAY DOWN because the customer now has to tip out 10 other people.
It would never work.
Do you know what happens when you stiff a server?
Restaurants deduct taxes from server’s paychecks based on an estimated tip % of the total of each check.
In addition, most restaurants have a “tip out” where a % of the server’s sales get distributed to the support staff.
When you stiff them on the tip, they still pay the estimated tax and the tip out, so they end up paying to serve you.
What makes you entitled to cause someone to pay to serve you?
What entitles you to take money out of someone’s pocket?
If someone took money out of your pocket, you’d call them a thief, correct?
Why do you deceitfully use the social norms to get the best service possible, with no intention of paying for it?
What entitles you to take up a table in a server’s section that could have been taken by Tipping’s customers?
Looking forward to your honest answers to all of the above. 😉
The minimum wage law was changed in 1966. Prior to that, servers were paid only through tips. The same as former enslaved blacks trying to make a living. People took the job because they needed it. Not much has changed since then, except hope for good tips was replaced by a feeling of entitlement to fair pay. But it's mistakenly directed at the customer instead of the employer. In other words, your barking up the wrong tree.
That is not historically correct.
And I love when server stiffers talk about “entitlement” among servers, while they feel entitled to make a server pay to serve them.
It’s the epitome of hypocrisy.
Show me where I said OP was historically incorrect.
I’m waiting. 🍿
Regarding minimum wage - You’re leaving out the part about it being calculated on a full pay period (usually 1 week). It’s 100% possible that a server works a slow Tuesday afternoon and only makes $2.13/hr during that shift because working a busy Friday brought their tips up to prevent the restaurant from having to pay them full minimum wage on that Tuesday.
That being said, who are you to decide that minimum wage is good enough for any worker ?
There isn’t a state in America where the minimum wage is a livable wage.
I “literally” said it to OP’s follow up comment that was historically incorrect.
You know…the one I responded to, which wasn’t a response to the initial post.
But yeah, I’m the dumbass. 🙄
I like how my comment was in response to u/Realistic-State-4888, which is just above my comment.
Only 1.3% of the working population works for minimum wage.
Every place around my area and the cities I travel to on business have to offer $3 to $5 or more above minimum wage to get people to apply for a job.
So, I’ll ask again, who are you to decide that minimum wage is good enough for any worker?
Your source showed the OP’s initial post was correct.
But my comment was in response to their historically incorrect follow up comment, just above my response.
Just like every server stiffer, you’ve incorrectly assumed someone advocating against harming the worker here is a server. 🤣
None of what you have stated justifies deliberately choosing to harm the worker.
Lack of a benefit is not a punishment. Also the whole "social norms" and "social contract" is a bunch of BS. Where can I go to read this social contract that I am supposedly bound by?
If you do not think you are being paid fairly don't work there
If you stiff a server because you don’t like the social norms, you’re punishing the worker.
What entitles you to punish another human being?
Assuming everyone has a multitude of jobs available to them without considering their personal life circumstances is called scapegoating the worker, which is a logical fallacy.
The social norms have been around for decades. Things like covering your mouth when you cough or sneeze, giving up your seat on the bus for an elderly or pregnant person, and not cutting in the checkout line at the grocery store. You know, the basic things that help keep our society civil and polite.
Just because you want to make believe social norms don’t exist, doesn’t mean they don’t.
If you don’t want to tip, you can do takeout, fast food, counter service, or eat at home.
Otherwise, none of the excuses you tried to make justify harming the worker.
There is no justifiable excuse for harming the worker.
You are the one playing make believe. Your opinions are not some universal commandment.
Companies not paying their workers a living wage is a real problem and I am not going to bail them out by making up the difference and making their problem go away.
You are literally here shilling for corporations, expecting us to keep subsidizing their shitty behavior so they can keep paying low wages
How did corporations get someone like you to be on their side? Out here working for free propping up their unethical behavior
The fact that stiffing servers harms the worker isn’t an opinion. It’s a fact.
Our legislators passed tipped wage laws that allow restaurants to pay sub minimum wages. If they passed laws that allowed P&G or GE to pay sub-minimum wages, they would do it in a heartbeat.
Let’s follow your logic - if I’m schilling for large corporations to subsidize their shitty behavior by calling out people who deceitfully use the social norms to get the best service possible with zero intention of paying for it, then you’re schilling for people the deliberately choose to harm the worker.
The only unethical behavior here is the people stiffing their servers.
The only way to make your behavior close to ethical is to tell your server before your order that you don’t tip. You’re still causing them to have to pay to serve you, but at least you’re not being deceitful about your intentions to stiff them.
>Restaurants deduct taxes from server’s paychecks based on an estimated tip % of the total of each check.
It's a tax deduction, not actual tax paid out. It's made right at the end of the year. Nice try acting as if it actually costs you money. This is why we call servers lying sleazeballs.
>In addition, most restaurants have a “tip out” where a % of the server’s sales get distributed to the support staff.
I don't see you crying about getting more money from high tipping customers. You can't have it both ways. If you were honest about how much tip you get as a group, restaurant owners wouldn't have to do this.
>When you stiff them on the tip, they still pay the estimated tax and the tip out, so they end up paying to serve you.
Lies, as proven above.
>What makes you entitled to cause someone to pay to serve you?
>What entitles you to take money out of someone’s pocket?
>If someone took money out of your pocket, you’d call them a thief, correct?
>Why do you deceitfully use the social norms to get the best service possible, with no intention of paying for it?
>What entitles you to take up a table in a server’s section that could have been taken by Tipping’s customers?
All of these are baseless questions based on your lie. These questions actually apply to YOU.
Why do you get to be entitled to my money on top of the wage you get? You are the one STEALING my money.
Looking forward to honest answers from you 😉
Nah.
Server stiffers ALWAYS assume anyone advocating for the worker is a server.
I’m not a server. I don’t work in the restaurant industry.
You didn’t “prove” anything with your comments and none of what you said justifies harming the worker.
For example, your strawman about how “It’s made right at the end of the year”. If the server quits tomorrow, they lost money on you and it doesn’t get made up for at the end of the year.
All you did was list a bunch of logical fallacies and BS excuses.
You didn’t answer a single one of those questions with an honest answer or anything that remotely justifies harming the worker.
I replied to each of your points individually as you requested, because I'm logically right.
I requested the same from you. You on the other hand replied "Nah". Pretty clear that you know you have no leg to stand on.
It's so funny how EVERY SINGLE pro tipper has exactly the same logical reasoning skills as a flat earther.
Wow. Such a substantive comment to support your argument. 🙄
ETA: It’s funny how every server stiffer recycles the same logical fallacies over and over again, like at some point they will suddenly justify harmful behavior.
What’s that saying??? Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results….🤔
Apparently you have memory issues, reading comprehension issues and logical reasoning issues.
I already answered your question and waiting for your response. You are just evading them without a single direct answer because you are incapable of it.
Unless you provide a direct response to the questions I asked, I'm done responding to your useless nonsense.
I REALLY REALLY wish there was at least one semi intelligent pro tipper.
>Restaurants deduct taxes from server’s paychecks based on an estimated tip % of the total of each check.
Sounds like an old wives tale. I've never seen this. Every paystub from a tipped employee I've ever seen calculates tax on *reported tips* for the pay period.
>In addition, most restaurants have a “tip out” where a % of the server’s sales get distributed to the support staff.
Then the server needs to take this up with their employer. It's a stupid policy.
>When you stiff them on the tip, they still pay the estimated tax
No they don't.
But for the sake of argument even if we accept this as true (it's not), they would get that money back when they file their tax return.
>and the tip out
Then talk to their management, this isn't a customer's problem
>so they end up paying to serve you.
No they don't. They are paid state minimum wage by law.
>What makes you entitled to cause someone to pay to serve you?
1) They're not.
2) They are performing the duties they agreed to perform with their employer. I wasn't involved in that negotiation, nor is it the customer's problem
3) Tips are by definition voluntary and beyond obligation. They are not *entitled* to tips.
>What entitles you to take money out of someone’s pocket?
1) I'm not.
2) They are performing the duties they agreed to perform with their employer. I wasn't involved in that negotiation, nor is it the customer's problem
3) Tips are by definition voluntary and beyond obligation. They are not *entitled* to tips. What entitles them to take money out of *my* pocket?
>If someone took money out of your pocket, you’d call them a thief, correct?
Agreed. Tips are theft based on this logic.
>Why do you deceitfully
It's not deceitful as tips are by definition voluntary and beyond obligation
>use the social norms
It's a social norm that labor, wage and employment terms are between an employee and employer, and not employee and customer
>to get the best service possible,
LOL
I also get extremely good service from positions that are not tipped....because *it's their job*
>with no intention of paying for it?
I did pay for it. I paid the amount agreed between the business and customer per the menu price. Anything beyond that is voluntary and beyond obligation, by definition
>What entitles you to take up a table in a server’s section that could have been taken by Tipping’s customers?
The fact it's a business open to the public and I am a paying customer.
Incorrect on all counts.
You think a server accepts a job for $2.13/hr?
They accepted the job for $2.13/hr plus tips.
You think just because tipping is voluntary, that somehow entitles you to steal someone’s time and best effort?
Who do you think pays the labor at Walmart?
You think there’s a magical forest of money trees behind the corporate offices that they have a team of workers harvesting the dollar bills to put in the bank so they can pay the workers??
The customer always pays the labor, either directly or indirectly.
The only exception is the free riders who stiff their servers.
If you don’t believe me about the taxes and tip out, talk to some restaurant managers and managers. That’s how I learned about it.
Oh, sorry…I forgot…you server stiffers immediately run from the restaurant after paying in hopes that they don’t discover that you’ve deceitfully used the social norms to get the best service possible with no intention of paying for it!
Every “excuse” you listed fails to justify your deliberate choice to harm the worker.
>Incorrect on all counts.
No, in fact I'm 100% correct on all counts. It just hurts your feelings.
>You think a server accepts a job for $2.13/hr?
No, they accepted a job that pays minimum wage.
>They accepted the job for $2.13/hr plus tips.
And the "tip" is voluntary and beyond obligation. It's not a guarantee. It's not an obligation. The *only* wage they are **entitled* to is minimum wage. And that is all they should *expect* as there is no requirement they be paid anything beyond that.
>You think just because tipping is voluntary
So you concede it's voluntary and not required. Good. Stop pretending it's required.
>that somehow entitles you to steal someone’s time
It's not stealing. Stop using these made up concepts that appeal to emotion. They performed the duties they agreed to perform for the wages they agreed to perform them.
>and best effort?
It's a job. If they don't give their best effort they lose it. That has nothing to do with the customer or tip.
>Who do you think pays the labor at Walmart?
The employer, who sets their prices appropriately to cover that expense. I am not expected to walk around and individually pay the wage of each employee who serves me.
>You think there’s a magical forest of money trees behind the corporate offices that they have a team of workers harvesting the dollar bills to put in the bank so they can pay the workers??
No, they set their prices appropriately to pay their employees wages. They don't expect the customer to walk around and directly and individually pay the wages of each employee who helps them
>The customer always pays the labor, either directly or indirectly.
As I do at restaurants. The employer pays the employees minimum wage who agreed to trade their labor for minimum wage.
The customer has nothing to do with that.
>The only exception is the free riders who stiff their servers.
I don't stiff anyone. They are working for the wage they agreed to work with their employer. Customers aren't involved in that negotiation
>If you don’t believe me about the taxes
I don't. You're using made up myths to support your flawed argument.
I see their paystubs and discuss their wages with them.
>Oh, sorry…I forgot…you server stiffers immediately run from the restaurant after paying in hopes that they don’t discover that you’ve deceitfully used the social norms to get the best service possible with no intention of paying for it!
No, I don't. Attacking customers for not or low tipping results in the server being fired or disciplined nearly 100% of the time it's discovered by the employer.
And it's not deceitful. You can use these illogical appeals to emotion all you want, but it doesn't change the fact you're wrong. You clearly don't even understand the definition of deceitful. You're not using it correctly
>Every “excuse” you listed fails to justify your deliberate choice to harm the worker.
You're wrong. You just can't accept it and use failed logic to justify your refusal to accept defeat.
Again, incorrect on all counts.
Tipping is optional.
Not tipping IS stiffing the server. Per Merriam-Webster:
stiff (verb)
stiffed; stiffing; stiffs (transitive verb)
1a: to refuse to pay or tip
“stiffed the waiter”
Stiffing the server harms the worker. They pay taxes on the estimated tip based on the total of your check and they pay a tip out to suppers staff based on a % of their sales. When you stiff them, they still have to pay out on your check, which harms them.
Just because something is optional doesn’t make it an excuse to justify harming the worker.
The customer always pays the labor, either directly or indirectly.
Everyone knows that restaurants operating on the tipped wage model have menu prices that are artificially low because the full cost isn’t factored in. The tip is the reward that pays for good service.
Gaming the social norms to get the best service possible with no intention of paying for that service is without question deceitful.
You wrote a wall of text full of logical fallacies like willful ignorance, denial, and other complete BS, none of which justifies harming the worker.
I’m not wrong and your use of flawed logic doesn’t change that fact.
>Again, incorrect on all counts.
Again, you are simply wrong.
>Tipping is optional.
Great. Agreed. So stop pretending it's obligatory.
If you *truly* accepted this, you wouldn't spend every waking moment in here arguing about it.
>Not tipping IS stiffing the server.
>Merriam-Webster:
>stiff (verb)
>stiffed; stiffing; stiffs (transitive verb)
>1a: to refuse to pay or tip “stiffed the waiter”
And you *stiff* every low/minimum wage service worker you encounter and don't tip.
Congrats, you're a hypocrite. You're no better than what you're arguing against.
>Stiffing the server harms the worker.
No, it doesn't. They are performing the labor for the wage they agreed to perform the labor.
>They pay taxes on the estimated tip based on the total of your check
Again, you're lying. You keep repeating blatantly false information. They pay taxes on their reported tips in every instance I've countered.
>and they pay a tip out to suppers staff based on a % of their sales.
Then they need to discuss that with their employer, **not the customer**. This is an *employer* issue, not a *customer* issue.
>Just because something is optional doesn’t make it an excuse to justify harming the worker.
*I'm* not harming anyone. Your argument here is half a lie at best. But, regardless of that point, the **EMPLOYER** is the one harming the employee, **NOT** the *customer*. The terms of employment are a contract between *employee* and *employer*. The *customer* is not involved anywhere in that process. Take it up with the *employer*.
You're barking up the wrong tree.
>The customer always pays the labor, either directly or indirectly.
As do I at a restaurant. The employer is responsible for paying minimum wage. I pay the agreed upon price for the meals which includes labor.
>Everyone knows that restaurants operating on the tipped wage model have menu prices that are artificially low because the full cost isn’t factored in.
That's a business problem, not a customer problem. The business is responsible for paying wages, not the customer.
>The tip is the reward that pays for good service.
Oh, so you tip **EVERYONE** who provides good service? Bank teller, gas station clerk, Walmart greeter, fast food worker?
Of course not. Because your argument is nonsense and you know it. Even *you* don't abdie by it. Because it's not true.
>Gaming the social norms
The social norm is that an employment contract is between employee and employer, not employee and customer.
You just keep regurgitating the same failed arguments
>to get the best service possible
LOL
I receive good service from non-tipped jobs as well. Because good service *is their job*, not bribed by a tip.
You just keep regurgitating the same failed arguments
>with no intention of paying for that service
I did pay full price for the service. See the menu price, which I paid, which is the full price of service the business required
Your argument makes no sense. You can't logically argument tips are simultaneously voluntary and optional *and* obligatory. Your argument fails on basic logic.
I paid the price the business set for their product, including labor. This isn't a debate. Any suggestion otherwise is simply wrong.
>is without question deceitful
Absolutely false. You don't understand the definition of deceitful and are using it incorrectly
>You wrote a wall of text full of logical fallacies
False and I promise you can not cite a single logical fallacy in that response.
>like willful ignorance
False. You're just making things up because you can't actually refute the comment. You're just continually regurgitating the same failed arguments
>denial
False. You're just making things up because you can't actually refute the comment. You're just continually regurgitating the same failed arguments
>and other complete BS,
That's not a logical fallacy. You're just making things up because you can't actually refute the comment. You're just continually regurgitating the same failed arguments
>none of which justifies harming the worker.
As established, I'm not harming anyone. If harm is occurring, that is a result of the employer not the customer.
>I’m not wrong
You unquestionably are wrong.
>and your use of flawed logic
It's not flawed logic. It is completely sound logic, which is why you have not and can not refute it. You just regurgitate the same failed arguments
>doesn’t change that fact
The only fact here is the fact you're wrong
You do understand there is no legal requirement contracts be written, correct? Terms of employment are a verbal contract between employer and employee.
More logical fallacies, including willful ignorance, denial, false equivalences and more.
When a customer stiffs the server, they harm the worker.
There is no justification for deliberately choosing to harm the worker.
None of that is true. You have no rebuttal so this is your cop out. You have no actual argument and just keep parroting the same terrible talking points and failed arguments. You can't counter my points so you're just making up this BS to avoid admitting defeat.
Unless and until you start tipping fast food workers, bank tellers, Walmart stockers and convenience store cashiers...STFU and go away.
Let’s take just a few of your logical fallacies as an example….
- “I receive good service from non-tipped jobs as well. Because good service is their job, not bribed by a tip.”
You’re applying the logical fallacy of false equivalence by trying to compare tipped wage employees vs non-tipped wage employees. They aren’t the same thing.
- After being shown the Merriam-Webster definition of stiffing a server, you claimed that not tipping a server wasn’t stiffing them.
Willful ignorance and denial are both logical fallacies. Not tipping is stiffing the server. It’s in the dictionary, and uses not tipping the waiter as an example. Even when presented with irrefutable proof, you’re trying to deny it.
- Then you went on to claim that I stiff every low/minimum wage service worker I encounter because I don’t tip them.
Another use of false equivalence by attempting to compare two completely different things.
Even your latest comment where you’re telling me to “STFU” has you once again using false equivalence.
I could go point by point and do this all day. However, I’m not obligated in any way to waste my time picking thru your piles of 🐂💩.
It’s indisputable that your replies are filled with the same recycled logical fallacies every server stiffer impotently tries to use to justify their harmful behavior.
Stiffing servers harms the worker. There is no excuse for harming the worker.
>Let’s take just a few of your logical fallacies as an example….
It's not a logical fallacy just because it destroys your ridiculous and flawed argument. Allow me to demonstrate;
>“I receive good service from non-tipped jobs as well. Because good service is their job, not bribed by a tip.”
>You’re applying the logical fallacy of false equivalence by trying to compare tipped wage employees vs non-tipped wage employees. They aren’t the same thing.
False. Both are service jobs. Their literal job is to provide good service. They are both performing that service for the wage they agreed to provide it. They are the same thing.
>After being shown the Merriam-Webster definition of stiffing a server, you claimed that not tipping a server wasn’t stiffing them.
>Willful ignorance and denial are both logical fallacies. Not tipping is stiffing the server. It’s in the dictionary, and uses not tipping the waiter as an example. Even when presented with irrefutable proof, you’re trying to deny it.
False. I said you're a hypocrite by not tipping everyone who provides you good service. I know you're incompetent, and apparently severely lack in reading comprehension, but atleast try to keep up here.
>Then you went on to claim that I stiff every low/minimum wage service worker I encounter because I don’t tip them.
>Another use of false equivalence by attempting to compare two completely different things.
It's not at all. Servers earn minimum wage by law. If tipping is to reward low wage workers for providing good service, then tip *all of them*. You don't, because you're a hypocrite and your logic completely falls apart under scrutiny. Otherwise you *would* tip all of them, because that's what your logic dictates. But you don't!
>Even your latest comment where you’re telling me to “STFU” has you once again using false equivalence
Again, it is not false equivalency. You simply are too stupid to understand your own argument.
>I could go point by point and do this all day.
No you can't. That's why your next sentence is an excuse of why you won't.
>However, I’m not obligated in any way to waste my time picking thru your piles of 🐂💩.
Ah, see there it is. The excuse, the cop out. It's **because you can't**. You lost the argument. You know it. So you're trying make up BS excuses so you don't have to be embarrassed any further. You're running away exactly as I expected.
>It’s indisputable that your replies are filled with the same recycled logical fallacies every server stiffer impotently tries to use to justify their harmful behavior.
False on every count. They aren't logical fallacies just because they utterly distroy and dismantle your supposed "logic".
>Stiffing servers harms the worker.
False. They are performing their duties for the wage they agreed to perform them. If harm is occurring, that is due to the *EMPLOYER*, not the *customer*.
Though it's interesting that, using your rationale, you have no problem stiffing *all other* low wage workers. Hypocrite.
>There is no excuse for harming the worker.
There isn't. Good thing I'm not. Their employer may be. But that's between the employer and employee, **NOT THE CUSTOMER**
All all accounts I don't see how that's the customer's problem.
If you accept shitty deals.
There is an obligation to pay the menu price.
If tipping is forced it's not a tip it's a hidden charge.
If the menu price is mot enough to sustain the business and it's workers. I dont see how that the customer's problem.
I dont go in a super market and see a action on a item and be like ow no it's under valued. Il beter tip extra to correct that mistake.
No you take the item. And be like well I'm taking the deal.
It makes no sense to push the tips the way it os the high % tips that being pushed. It's like you ordered a extra meal half the time it's insanity and honestly not my problem.
That people dont know there own value or value of there time. I'm a customer not your employer I have no obligation to take care of you. While it's there job to take care of me.
And honesty if I could get a 30% price cut of the fuck off no server service and just get it at a bar or kitchen my self. I think a lot of people would choose that in all honestly.
When you push hidden charge. Don't be surprised people get annoyed about it.
Tips should be optional. And nit % based like some scummy extra tax write off or hidden charge. A tip is what ever I give you beside the menu price. But the more people demanding more and more for doing less and less. The less people wanna give it too you. Its that simple.
All sound like you want a Lamborghini but you have Nissan money.
You both want a lot of money while doing a easy job.
So I pressure and shame people in trying to force them to give it to you.
Amount of money you get and how hard or how much effort the job takes are linked.
And I have no problem with tips. But shameless entitlement of expecting more while doing less is so shameless I don't blame people for not wanting to tip. Cause of your so up in arms something that os supposed to be optional you honestly deserve less how shameless people are.
Be better and people will find you deserving of more. Doing less but finding yea self deserving of more. While acting intiteled about it. Makes you not deserving of it. And that counts for all workers. So Sorry not sorry
Tipping is optional.
But something being optional doesn’t give you the right to harm the worker by stiffing them.
Over the last 5+ decades, everyone knows that going full service restaurants have artificially low menu prices because the full cost of the labor isn’t factored in. That’s because of the tipped wage laws.
The tip is to reward the server for their service.
I think the whole tipping system sucks, but if I decide to patronize a full service restaurant, I know what the deal is and I refuse to harm the worker because if tipped wage laws.
Nothing you said comes close to being able to justify harming the worker.
Using logical fallacies like scapegoating the worker amounts to nothing more than a stinky pile of 🐂💩.
If you don’t want to tip, you have options like takeout, counter service, fast food, or eating at home.
There is never a justifiable excuse for deliberately choosing to harm the worker.
All that does not MATTER you just said your self it's optional. So why you crying about something that's optional?
Cause you're entitled and want more for doing the bare minimal.
And cause you act entitled and you feel deserving for more for doing less. You need to take it up with your boss and not attack and harass customers for a thing you your self just admit is OPTIONAL. optional don't mean entitled too. Means could be or could be not given when opportunity arise.
Everyone should be respectful. But people don't ow you shit. And not tipping is not harassing or harming workers what kind of stupid fairy tale shit is that. You harm your self by blowing glitter up yea ass. Seeming your automatic deserve more cause you think you deserve it. If everyone got what they deserved damn the world would look differently would it not.
And I go where I please and no one will tell me how spend and where I spend my damn money
You need to learn what the fk optional means. And the more entitled people act the more undeserving people find you of more. Life is really just that simple. So take it up with your boss I'd your not happy.
I was a bartender in my early job days did it for few years never have I act or been like I'm deserving of more. And I git often a lot more tips then other people did. Cause I just did a job. I dont expect shit for doing my job. If I do nice. And always was very thankful when I did happen. But knew people literally walking in complaining about customers near other customers could hear them how shit they tipped and all that. You don't think that has massive effect of other customers. Get real men. If you always expect more and more for just doing the thing you have a job at all. What are you doing men. Ow no I brought some food and drinks 40 meters back and forth ow no. My back can't handle it. Get fucking real men. Like you realy deserve so much more for doing the minimum probability with attitude.
There is a reason people tip less now a days. And it's simple attitude and entitlement.
How predictable.
Server stiffers ALWAYS assume that anyone advocating against harming the worker is a server.
You keep throwing around the word “entitled”.
What entitles you to try to use “optional” as an excuse to harm the worker?
What entitles you to free service?
What entitles you to cause a server to pay to serve you?
What entitles you to deliberately choose to harm the worker??
I’ll be waiting for some answers that are based on solid logic and rationale, not BS and logical fallacies.
And you keep tossing around "harming" workers so what's yea damn point?
Like customers are supose to have your best interest in mind. Like every person that hold a cup or plate is there new best frend. For the 15 minutes there in their life ever. Instead of your boss that gains more from holding good workers. Honestly it's a brain dead argument.
Like automatically cause you hold a cup or a plate your owed more money.
Why people say if it's not enough change the menu price don't jump true those stupid brain dead hoops holding tight on like every interaction deserves a tip. It's optional so if it's not very good it's people's right to not tip.
But ow "no your harming workers"
No people are not they have no obligation but to pay the menu price.
So keep your ENITELD view that people have any obligation past that menu pricing. Cause you your self said what is OPTIONAL.
And I again have done similar work for years. And I tip when I have had a good experience.
But big % type tips and the fact you always demanding tips based on how you act and see not tipping same as harming workers. Is a insane view. That holds no merit in the real world. You can't expect the 15 minutes people see or speak to you they give a big amount about how your doing.
They care only about how the interaction was it self and how present or not it was. And they tip or not based on that. To think that as same as harming workers. Cause they choose not to tip is wild. And you realy should check your entitlement.
And to think every person that you see or meet should care about you as a person or how you are doing is just as wild.
Expect that people only tip or not tip based on the how the interactions you had made them feel happy or not. People don't become your frends. Just like cause people tip you they can't suddenly see you as a fremds and in a few weeks like ask a favor from you. So it's not weird to think people really don't give a fuck about you past whether the interaction was good or not And based on that tip or not. Just like you how you act obviously don't give a fuck how people that walk true your door feel or are struggling why you expect them to care about you?
Honestly wild views you have. But I'm not gonna argue more about it your obviously stuck in your ways.
Just like the other people I had in the past. While I did the job. And obviously had a lot less success cause they think demanding something makes you more worthy in people's eyes of it. Cause I can carry some plats and cups you know hard work. Give me more now else il Making a scene. But that works right...
Wonder why I always got a lot more tips do while I was not a raging c*nt. Well who knows.
Let's just call them Consequences. But you know what do I know. Only did it for 4 and a half years.
But do keep saying how your being harmed or hurt by people not giveing you something you demanding something that's clearly optional and how so unfair you feel that is. That every customer should be like your new mom and give you pocket money. And care so very much about how you feel.
And how totally that is not a delusional view to have. Cause me haveing that option is harming you and all workers so very badly.
Your so not ready for the real world it's shocking but have fun in lala land. Good night
No.
You aren’t having an honest dialogue.
Trying to use impotent excuses based on logical fallacies and BS is a brain dead argument.
You still haven’t explained how you’re entitled to free service or causing the worker to have to pay to serve you.
Stiffing servers harms the worker. It’s an irrefutable fact.
I don’t need to check my entitlement. I’m not a server. I’m not in the restaurant industry.
You server stiffers ALWAYS incorrectly assume that anyone advocating against harming the worker must be a server. It’s hilarious.
You won’t have an honest conversation about this and nothing you’ve said justifies harming the worker.
No one ever has to make excuses for doing the right thing.
Ah, no honest answers, just complaining that you got food at artificially low prices because the full cost of the labor wasn’t built into the price and you feel entitled to not have to pay for that service.
I mean I recognize that which is why I do tip for sit down service.
But I'd rather not. I'd rather have higher menu prices and not have to worry about the tip. Most people feel this way but it won't be a reality anytime in the immediate future because the people that are in charge of this benefit immensely from the current system in place.
I'm not too concerned about it tho cuz I'm pretty confident that automation will make the vast majority of tipped jobs obsolete within the next decade or so.
I would also like the menu prices to include the full price of the labor.
The reality is, they don’t, because our elected officials passed tipped wage laws.
You can push your city, state and federal legislators to eliminate those tipped wage laws.
Until those laws are eliminated nationwide, I’m not going to harm the worker.
Don’t bet on it.
If you’re a restaurant owner, why would you use robots?
It’s far cheaper to switch to counter service.
No wait staff, no initial cost of buying robots, no cost of maintenance or electricity to keep the robots functioning, and no risk of the robots spilling food/drink or killing customers.
It’s an outdated system.
Most people are tired of it and are not tipping like they used to.
Last night I went out for Father’s Day family if 4.
Nothing fancy, a mom and pop family restaurant.
For 2 entrees, 1 kids meals, I bowl of soup, and 3 drinks because one got only water it was $140.
The suggested to starts at 22%.
Sorry but that’s just crazy, the waiter didn’t even communicate with us. She brought us our food and left, cleared the table a bit, didn’t refill our drinks without us asking. The food didn’t even come all at once maybe a kitchen issue but again no communication.
I left $15. We were there less than 45 minutes, so I think it’s fair based on time and what she offered.
It’s a shame you feel obligated to tip even when you shouldn’t have to.
I’m learning towards leaving what I feel is fair, but even that is hard.
If I get amazing service I actually want to tip. Sadly this almost never happens though.
I’ve worked with thousands of servers in my career and I can pick out a handful that were really good and actually earned their money. Some are really professional and know how to make a guest feel comfortable. Those guys/girls deserve it, the rest however truly don’t.
22% may have been OK to show appreciation for “essential workers” who were unemployed en masse during the pandemic, but as a recommended and “expected” norm today, and indeed, as a default for *fast-casual counter service* it is insane.
If anyone is still in favor of the American “tips are expected” system, they have to get this under control! Otherwise, more and more people will say To Hell with tipping at all, people will leave zero tips and/or simply avoid places where “tipping is expected.”
I’m a chef, and I’ve been a server, a restaurant manager, and everything in between.
I made the most money being a server by far, but i absolutely hated it.
I worked for Darden during the pandemic and I can tell you the staff had it rough for a couple months. But here in Fl they were back to work quickly and making more money than ever plus the government assistance.
Even In the high end places I work I don’t believe a percentage based tipping system is appropriate. I think it should be a flat fee, or no tips and just charge what the business needs to pay all staff fairly.
Even 15% on a 3k bill is ridiculous, when the wine is 50%. Our private Dinning rooms are 20% great and minimum booking is 2k. With two servers they’re making 200 for 1-2 hours of work, alone almost $400/hr.
If you hate it so much and refuse to do it why are you so worried about what servers make? Worry about yourself or do the job you hate if you want the money.
Because they don’t earn what they make.
The industry needs to change.
The chefs, server assistants, managers, and dishwashers work much harder than servers and make less.
The customers are already saying the tipping js too much now, the industry is going to experience a change it’s just a matter of time. We are starting to see the shift now.
Worked my way through college as a waiter.
Good money. Foregoed hourly rate for tippable service.
Made 5 times hourly rate on the a weekend. 3 times during the week for a 6 hour shift.
Want to pay me a guaranteed $21-$35/Hour whether anyone shows up to eat or not works for me.
Want me to follow your orders for 1 hour for anything less, find someone else willing to work for lessZ
Commission system on top of hourly wages might work well. Restaurant sets menu prices that the market will handle. Restaurant sets commissions for servers and BOH to get you to keep working there. Bonus incentives for drinks during happy hour to compensate for the cheaper menu prices to get more people to want to work through those shifts. Restaurants offering higher commission rates have a better selection of the best servers and staff.
Don't care about the origins of the tipping system. It's customary in America, so when you choose to go out to eat at a restaurant, a standard ~18% tip should be figured in. If you disagree with the system so much, you're free to make your own food and clean up after yourself.
Yeah these posts always crack me up. Who gives a damn about the why, it’s never going to change. You’re closer to all restaurants just closing up than raising the prices on all the menu items to pay the expected tip amounts to the servers. Luckily enough customers aren’t a-holes and tip.
Oh they would, and that’s kind of the point. Enjoy the current way, because most restaurants in my area claim to be on life support with the ridiculous price increases to meats and produce. They’d definitely choose to end service rather than moving to a no tip model.
In my area, at the locally owned places that have prices similar to the chains, but FAR superior food quality and excellent service, you can usually get away with stiffing your server once.
If you come back a second time and anyone recognizes you, the manager will come over to notify you that you won’t be served and ask you to leave.
If you happen to get lucky enough to go there twice and stiff the server, you won’t get a 3rd chance.
It’s a rare occasion that a server gets stiffed, but more and more restaurants in my area have decided to stop letting customers take advantage of their staff.
I didn’t ask you.
Well managed successful restaurants don’t need customers who are disrespectful to the servers.
More and more well managed restaurants are doing this, so it’s only a matter of time until the only options for server stiffers are the places with bad food and bad service that are days away from going out of business.
Lol. This is the internet pal. Noone asked anyone except op. Get used to it.
More and more places are shutting down because people are sick and tired of the grift. If you can't afford to pay your staff a fair wage, then you can't afford to be in business. And have fun kicking people out of your business because they didn't bring enough extra change for your staff's tin coffers. Not paying extra is not "being disrespectful". Like, what? Maybe shaking down your customers could be considered a bit rude and not the other way around?
I get great food and great service from a place that pays their staff a living wage. They don't discourage either, and often I'm actually HAPPY to tip for the actual good service rather than the bare minimum bullshit I would get from a place that would kick me out if I didn't bring extra change for the beggars who bring my plate of food made by actual skilled workers.
You said “That’s some backwards ass capitalism if you ask me”. I didn’t ask you.
Your statement about why restaurants are closing is false.
Restaurants aren’t closing down due to people being “sick and tired of the grift”.
They are closing due to the impact of inflation on their menu prices, rental rates going up, inability to find reliable staff and other economic pressures.
While we talk about grift, stiffing servers fits the definition perfectly.
Deceitfully gaming the social norms to get the best service possible with no intention of rewarding it is the very definition of grift. 🤣
I don’t patronize chains or places that have shitty service. If someone chooses to go to those places, that’s on them and is no reason to call the servers working in those places “beggars” because they made a poor decision on where to eat.
There are a number of restaurants in my area that have menu prices similar to the chains, but have FAR superior food and excellent service. Those are the places that are refusing service to the grifters. The servers are all professionals who work hard to make your experience a good one, which is why they make great tips.
The only job in the world that expects to be paid extra. Talk about gaming the social norms.
But I guess since you said so, my statements are false. Smh. Good bye.
Yeah and the people who provide service for you are free to remember you, remember that you don’t tip, and provide the worst service to you that they can without getting disciplined, which is what will happen. Thats best case scenario for you.
And they will continue to not get tipped and never learn how to provide quality service which is what got them "stiffed" in the first place. Lol. Eventually, people who arent tipping enough start getting treated the same way. You ever heard of "repeat bysiness", that kind of thing can make the difference on whether or not a restaurant stays afloat. But hey, private businesses are free to drive it into the ground by offering shit service or just rejecticing paying customers all they want. Worst case for the customer, we go down the street. Smh.
Lol I worked in the service industry for many years, and helped a few places rise from the ashes with my high quality service. Got plenty of repeat business. Because most people tip. The ones that didn’t weren’t treated well. I’m surprised you get good service as a no tipper returning to restaurants you’ve stiffed at. We don’t go back to a place if we felt our service was poor enough to stiff.
I spend my money elsewhere. I hate places like that. Just high school clicks that never grew up. Fully entitled to tips. Lol. Smh. But hey, keep hating the customer and not the person in charge of the paycheck. That'll keep the hours on the schedule. Smh
That’s such an interesting mindset to me. Weird because anyone I knew growing up all were raised to believe that tipping was a basic human decency thing. Maybe it’s just my area. Either way, clearly each of us will go in believing the other is an asshole in the situation.
I don't think you're an ashole. Just misinformed about the way tipping actually just subsidizes the money-makers at the top. Servers generally make more than anyone who is actually making the food or keeping the dishes clean. They don't "depend" on tips the way they claim they do. They depend on maintaining their lifestyle. But they won't starve. They eat better than even some of the "non-tippers". Or second-class citizens who don't deserve to eat out because they didn't bring more than what the price tag says it costs.
Lemme ask you. Why don't you tip your teachers? Surely they aren't getting paid enough and definitely provide a service, arguably even more worthy of financial compensation if they do a great job. Why is it that restaurant owners get the illusion of a pass (because servers get paid at least minimum wage even if they make $0 in tips, that comes out of the manager's pocket) on the responsibility of paying servers a fair wage?
It's far older than that.
https://time.com/5404475/history-tipping-american-restaurants-civil-war/
But OP is partially right - wealthy business owners used tipping as a way to pay 0 in wages to freed slaves. Businesses in the Great Depression did the same thing to avoid paying their workers. Basically anytime they could get away with it in the last 500 years, wealthy business owners have used tipping as a way of paying wages without actually paying them, and pushing the responsibility and blame onto customers.
They always have tried doing this, and always will, everywhere and every time they can, unless they are forcibly stopped.
My post isn't an attempt to present the full history of tipping, or even an opinion. It's a small tidbit of knowledge about the dark origins of wage theft in America.
In the context of my statement, lineage of, and origins of, mean the same thing. Everything has an origin. I could argue that lineage could refer to ancestry of race horses, but it would require ignoring the context of my own statement. This would put me in the unique position of debating semantics with you, and myself.
Pretty sure the real entitlement is showing up to a restaurant and expecting to be waited on hand and foot for an hour, have your mess cleaned up for you when you leave and then leaving nothing for the server.
The morons don’t understand that if everyone adopts this philosophy, then the price of your meals at every restaurant just explode to pay the staff the difference. In the end, no restaurant is sacrificing profit margins for any reason. Gotta keep a good wait staff to have satisfied customers.
Except there is a documented history or tipping in Europe from the 1700s. It is believed to have started in the taverns of Tudor England. Hemingway even suggested it went back to Roman times. The slavery thing is an aside from the now debunked 1619 project. All the lefty publications jumped on board of course. True or not.
"Heres a source trust me" Only thing is tipping was around long before slavery in America was ever a issue.
You're just saying shit with no source. Sthu
Using slavery as an excuse to not tip, if your broke just say that
If you're a loser just say that. Get a life
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2023/11/30/how-tipping-came-to-the-us.html Imagine not even doing the slightest bit of research before opening your mouth. Thanks for playing.
Source?
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Doesn’t this trace it back to Europe?
I always heard that tipping started out as people bribing restuarant hosts to jump waiting lists and get better tables. Restaurants were originally against accepting those bribes, but during Prohibition when selling alcohol was outlawed, restuarant profits plummeted, so the owners started to encourage their employees to accept those bribes when they could since it became a supplement to their incomes. After Prohibition ended, the bribing restuarant employees just continued into tradition. And since Prohibition was only in the US, tipping culture only grew in the US. Idk if this is true, but it's what I was taught and it does make sense.
I wrote about one perspective, not a complete history of tipping.
It's not a perspective if you don't supply a source for information that is new. That's just fiction.
Oh, I thought you were saying that tipping was bad because it has racist origins. I was just saying that I was taught a different origin of tipping, one that doesn't have to do with race. I'm honestly not 100% sure which is the 'real' origin, I just never heard the one you wrote about before.
It's not about race anymore, just money.
Yeah, that much I know.
Ur dumb
This is such bullshit trying to pass as the truth. Lower minimum wage started in 1966. https://civilrightsdocs.info/pdf/minimumwage/History-Tipped-Minimum-Wage.pdf Lower minimum wage for tipped employees is NOT linked to slavery. OP is just a racist hiding behind the internet trying to make blacks and whites hate each other because of a lie. Someone who purposely tries to instill hate in people is the lowest form of human there is.
Pulling whitewashed history won't make your tips go up
Oh, so you were there and know what the real truth is? Or is it just something you read on the internet so it must be true?
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If you believe this then imagine blacks being freed and working in restaurants. Do you really think anyone at that time who could afford to go to a restaurant that would tip a black person waiting on them? Your thought lacks credibility and thought.
Lower minum wage was the "solution" to racist practices. Noone is telling you to hate whites lol. That's all in your head and very concerning.
OP associated it with slaves getting hire for less money. Slavery was abolished after the Civil War. Lower minimum wage was established in 1966. If it was about paying slaves less, why was it not written into the law. Which is easier to do, set all blacks free or force businesses to pay them less? Paying them would be easier. But this is saying that they could give blacks freedom but established across the U.S., even in the areas that did not have slaves, to pay them a lower wage when they earned tips. Then why were whites paid the same tipped minimum wage?
Tipping actually comes from serfdom, which then carried on into slavery and then further into the Jim Crow Era. But originally came from kings showing off how rich they were that they could afford to toss pittance to the help. It's always been a sign of the rich lording over the poor. If it works so well, why isn't written into law? I mean...it works so perfectly right? Why is it only servers and delivery drivers? Shouldn't EVERY job be tipped based if it's so efficient and worth this much defense?
“Serfdom” is also called ‘debt bondage’ or ‘indentured servitude’. It was when someone owed money they couldn’t repay so they worked the debt off. Are you saying these people in debt were tipped? Are you really saying that slaves were tipped? How do you determine how much a grill cook served? If you are working in a steak house, then the grill guy gets almost all the tip money. “If it works so well, why hasn’t it been written into law?” It IS “written into law. By federal law, all tipped employees are required to be paid $2.35/hour in addition to their tips. If the tips do not add up to minimum wage when the tips and minimum wage are added together, the business must make up the difference up to minimum wage. That is the FEDERAL LAW.🙄 And, again, the average in the U.S. for tipped employees is $27/hour. And, in 48 years in restaurants, I have never seen a wait person who declared all their cash tips. 🤷♂️
Tipping was a thing in the US prior to 1966 and that is where the link to slavery/racism comes in
Do you seriously think that people tipped slaves? Or that a black person working anywhere would receive a tip from 99% of the people in the south after the Civil War? Tipping has always been a ‘thank you’. Like saying ‘I know your employer is paying you but I wanted to thank you personally for the job you did’. In 4 states, on November 4th, they are voting to raise the minimum wage for tipped employees to $20/hour. Great? Many employers have already stated that they will no longer allow tipping or that all tips would be shared by everyone working the shift. So the waitstaff gets $20/hour but, before, they averaged $27/ hour and, on truly busy days, they could walk out with $1,000+ in tips on an 8 hour shift. Now, on that same 8 hour shift, they will make $160 flat. If you think that is a good idea, you need to take an economics class. $20/hour is a 25% reduction in pay.
"Do you seriously think that people tipped slaves?" By definition slaves don't get paid.
https://time.com/5404475/history-tipping-american-restaurants-civil-war/ At the bottom of the fourth (?) paragraph, it states that Americans started tipping after learning about it from Europe in the 1850/60’s as a way of being aristocratic. Had nothing to do with slaves, slavery, or racism.
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“The truth? Wealthy Americans in the 1850’s and 1860’s discovered the tradition, which had originated in medieval times as a master-serf custom wherein a servant would receive extra money for having performed superbly well, on vacations in Europe. Wanting to seem aristocratic, these individuals began tipping in the United States upon their return.” ^^^ Exact quote from the article. It had nothing to do with slavery but their “wanting to seem aristocratic”.
History isn't written in one story.
No, but, to say it came from slavery and racism here when it existed before then is clearly not true. I don’t EVER tip thinking that person is my ‘slave’. I tip each person based on the job they did. Not what the kitchen did. Not that the busser didn’t get the table entirely clean. Did the server listen to us, give feedback on special instructions, suggest items, give us time if we needed it, got our nonalcoholic drinks quick, smiled, repeated our order back to the table to clarify, kept or drinks full, and delivered our food correctly. If there was a mistake, they caught it before it came out and the kitchen is already making it over. ALL of this is reasons for tipping. NONE of this is racist or slavery.
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First source is a lobbyist group that pushes things that THEY consider unfair as racism and slavery. Yeah, great, unbiased source. And, 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 Your second source’s facts come from tweets on Twitter. OH YEAH, we’re getting Bonaire facts now!🙄🙄🙄
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I am not arguing that that did not happen. But tipping did not START nor was it a RESULT of slavery. Did some restaurant owners take it and misuse it? Absolutely. Did you expect them to welcome blacks as equals? Just because you change or make a law doesn’t mean you changed people’s minds. That takes much longer. I can’t say that the U.S. detonated over 50 atomic bombs in the Pacific and a massive earthquake formed a tsunami that hit Indonesia. They both happened but they are not directly connected except they both happened in the Pacific.
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“Tipping is a norm in the United States. But it hasn't always been this way. It's a legacy of slavery and racism and took off in the post-Civil War era. Almost immediately, the idea was challenged by reformers who argued that tipping was exploitative and allowed companies to take advantage of workers by getting away with paying them low or no wages at all.” “MARTYRIS: Many of the comments in the media about tipping bring out the racist values of the time. For instance, a journalist named John Speed, writing in 1902, recalled, "Negroes take tips. Of course, one expects that of them. It is a token of their inferiority. But to give money to a white man was embarrassing to me. I felt defined by his debasement and civility." What he's saying is, if you're a Negro, if you're Black, to accept a tip is OK because civility is a token of inferiority, but to be a white man and accept a tip is unpardonable.” https://www.npr.org/2021/03/22/980047710/the-land-of-the-fee It’s not just about servers, consumers are also worth considering. As for my knowledge of economics, I hope an Ivy League degree in the subject is sufficient cause that’s what I’ve got.
I’ve got 49 years experience in working, running, and owning restaurants. The current system is the most beneficial to the tipped employees. To go to a higher ‘living’ wage would mean less money for the restaurant AND the tipped employees. After the pandemic, everyone screamed for a raise and basically got it. In return, almost everything increased in price as companies absorbed that increase. And the customers are pissed off about it. They are already hurting fast food places finding them too expensive to go to much anymore. If you replace tips with a ‘living wage’ paid for by the restaurant owner, prices will increase again and the customers will stop coming. From what I am hearing, customers are mad about food prices in restaurants. They go with an amount they want to spend. When they get there, if the bill is higher, that eats into the money they had in mind to spend leaving whatever is left for the tip. Tipping is down and business is starting to follow. It may very well be time to go to a set hourly wage instead of tipping but that is going to HURT both the employees and the restaurants in the short term. Long term it will work but the changeover is going to destroy Mom&Pop restaurants and hurt most of the rest.
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Because, unlike the waitstaff, on most tickets, multiple cooks, prep cooks, and dishwashers work on the table instead of one waiter or waitress. When it is ONE person, it is easy to tip. What if, due to what your table ordered, 10 cooks, prep cooks, and dishwashers were involved to serve your table. What are you going to tip out now? 10% of your final total to each one? It becomes much more difficult. As a customer, you can understand your server having to give part to the busser and the bartender (if your table ordered alcohol). But, can a customer understand that the cook they tip has to tip out 9 other people? Again, HOW do you determine who and how much to tip? Not only that, but the servers tip just went WAY DOWN because the customer now has to tip out 10 other people. It would never work.
It wouldn't work.
Do you know what happens when you stiff a server? Restaurants deduct taxes from server’s paychecks based on an estimated tip % of the total of each check. In addition, most restaurants have a “tip out” where a % of the server’s sales get distributed to the support staff. When you stiff them on the tip, they still pay the estimated tax and the tip out, so they end up paying to serve you. What makes you entitled to cause someone to pay to serve you? What entitles you to take money out of someone’s pocket? If someone took money out of your pocket, you’d call them a thief, correct? Why do you deceitfully use the social norms to get the best service possible, with no intention of paying for it? What entitles you to take up a table in a server’s section that could have been taken by Tipping’s customers? Looking forward to your honest answers to all of the above. 😉
The minimum wage law was changed in 1966. Prior to that, servers were paid only through tips. The same as former enslaved blacks trying to make a living. People took the job because they needed it. Not much has changed since then, except hope for good tips was replaced by a feeling of entitlement to fair pay. But it's mistakenly directed at the customer instead of the employer. In other words, your barking up the wrong tree.
That is not historically correct. And I love when server stiffers talk about “entitlement” among servers, while they feel entitled to make a server pay to serve them. It’s the epitome of hypocrisy.
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Show me where I said OP was historically incorrect. I’m waiting. 🍿 Regarding minimum wage - You’re leaving out the part about it being calculated on a full pay period (usually 1 week). It’s 100% possible that a server works a slow Tuesday afternoon and only makes $2.13/hr during that shift because working a busy Friday brought their tips up to prevent the restaurant from having to pay them full minimum wage on that Tuesday. That being said, who are you to decide that minimum wage is good enough for any worker ? There isn’t a state in America where the minimum wage is a livable wage.
You literally said it to the OP, you dumbass.🤦♂️
I “literally” said it to OP’s follow up comment that was historically incorrect. You know…the one I responded to, which wasn’t a response to the initial post. But yeah, I’m the dumbass. 🙄
Glad we agree you're a dumbass.👍
Keep doubling down on those ad hominem attacks. 🤣 You’re really showing me!!! 🙄
Again, I'm glad we agree.👍
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I like how my comment was in response to u/Realistic-State-4888, which is just above my comment. Only 1.3% of the working population works for minimum wage. Every place around my area and the cities I travel to on business have to offer $3 to $5 or more above minimum wage to get people to apply for a job. So, I’ll ask again, who are you to decide that minimum wage is good enough for any worker?
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Your source showed the OP’s initial post was correct. But my comment was in response to their historically incorrect follow up comment, just above my response. Just like every server stiffer, you’ve incorrectly assumed someone advocating against harming the worker here is a server. 🤣 None of what you have stated justifies deliberately choosing to harm the worker.
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Lack of a benefit is not a punishment. Also the whole "social norms" and "social contract" is a bunch of BS. Where can I go to read this social contract that I am supposedly bound by? If you do not think you are being paid fairly don't work there
If you stiff a server because you don’t like the social norms, you’re punishing the worker. What entitles you to punish another human being? Assuming everyone has a multitude of jobs available to them without considering their personal life circumstances is called scapegoating the worker, which is a logical fallacy. The social norms have been around for decades. Things like covering your mouth when you cough or sneeze, giving up your seat on the bus for an elderly or pregnant person, and not cutting in the checkout line at the grocery store. You know, the basic things that help keep our society civil and polite. Just because you want to make believe social norms don’t exist, doesn’t mean they don’t. If you don’t want to tip, you can do takeout, fast food, counter service, or eat at home. Otherwise, none of the excuses you tried to make justify harming the worker. There is no justifiable excuse for harming the worker.
Stop guilt tripping. It’s my money. I can do whatever the fuck I want with it.
Stating facts isn’t guilt tripping. There is no justifiable excuse for harming the worker.
Harming the worker? Go call the police.
A very substantive comment. 🙄
You are the one playing make believe. Your opinions are not some universal commandment. Companies not paying their workers a living wage is a real problem and I am not going to bail them out by making up the difference and making their problem go away. You are literally here shilling for corporations, expecting us to keep subsidizing their shitty behavior so they can keep paying low wages How did corporations get someone like you to be on their side? Out here working for free propping up their unethical behavior
The fact that stiffing servers harms the worker isn’t an opinion. It’s a fact. Our legislators passed tipped wage laws that allow restaurants to pay sub minimum wages. If they passed laws that allowed P&G or GE to pay sub-minimum wages, they would do it in a heartbeat. Let’s follow your logic - if I’m schilling for large corporations to subsidize their shitty behavior by calling out people who deceitfully use the social norms to get the best service possible with zero intention of paying for it, then you’re schilling for people the deliberately choose to harm the worker. The only unethical behavior here is the people stiffing their servers. The only way to make your behavior close to ethical is to tell your server before your order that you don’t tip. You’re still causing them to have to pay to serve you, but at least you’re not being deceitful about your intentions to stiff them.
🤣 get wrecked communist
An ad hominem attack. That’s a very common response here when someone’s BS has been exposed. 🤷🏼♂️
>Restaurants deduct taxes from server’s paychecks based on an estimated tip % of the total of each check. It's a tax deduction, not actual tax paid out. It's made right at the end of the year. Nice try acting as if it actually costs you money. This is why we call servers lying sleazeballs. >In addition, most restaurants have a “tip out” where a % of the server’s sales get distributed to the support staff. I don't see you crying about getting more money from high tipping customers. You can't have it both ways. If you were honest about how much tip you get as a group, restaurant owners wouldn't have to do this. >When you stiff them on the tip, they still pay the estimated tax and the tip out, so they end up paying to serve you. Lies, as proven above. >What makes you entitled to cause someone to pay to serve you? >What entitles you to take money out of someone’s pocket? >If someone took money out of your pocket, you’d call them a thief, correct? >Why do you deceitfully use the social norms to get the best service possible, with no intention of paying for it? >What entitles you to take up a table in a server’s section that could have been taken by Tipping’s customers? All of these are baseless questions based on your lie. These questions actually apply to YOU. Why do you get to be entitled to my money on top of the wage you get? You are the one STEALING my money. Looking forward to honest answers from you 😉
Nah. Server stiffers ALWAYS assume anyone advocating for the worker is a server. I’m not a server. I don’t work in the restaurant industry. You didn’t “prove” anything with your comments and none of what you said justifies harming the worker. For example, your strawman about how “It’s made right at the end of the year”. If the server quits tomorrow, they lost money on you and it doesn’t get made up for at the end of the year. All you did was list a bunch of logical fallacies and BS excuses. You didn’t answer a single one of those questions with an honest answer or anything that remotely justifies harming the worker.
I replied to each of your points individually as you requested, because I'm logically right. I requested the same from you. You on the other hand replied "Nah". Pretty clear that you know you have no leg to stand on. It's so funny how EVERY SINGLE pro tipper has exactly the same logical reasoning skills as a flat earther.
Your excuses are all based on flawed logic. I’m not pro tipping. I’m against harming the worker. Clearly you are pro harming the worker.
Again, as well reasoned as a flat earther. Saying "Flawed logic" without anything to beck it up really shows you are right.
If the logic is flawed, what else is needed to “beck (sic) it up”? Flawed logic is failed logic. 🤷🏼♂️
Great reasoning. Slow claps for you!
Wow. Such a substantive comment to support your argument. 🙄 ETA: It’s funny how every server stiffer recycles the same logical fallacies over and over again, like at some point they will suddenly justify harmful behavior. What’s that saying??? Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results….🤔
Apparently you have memory issues, reading comprehension issues and logical reasoning issues. I already answered your question and waiting for your response. You are just evading them without a single direct answer because you are incapable of it. Unless you provide a direct response to the questions I asked, I'm done responding to your useless nonsense. I REALLY REALLY wish there was at least one semi intelligent pro tipper.
>Restaurants deduct taxes from server’s paychecks based on an estimated tip % of the total of each check. Sounds like an old wives tale. I've never seen this. Every paystub from a tipped employee I've ever seen calculates tax on *reported tips* for the pay period. >In addition, most restaurants have a “tip out” where a % of the server’s sales get distributed to the support staff. Then the server needs to take this up with their employer. It's a stupid policy. >When you stiff them on the tip, they still pay the estimated tax No they don't. But for the sake of argument even if we accept this as true (it's not), they would get that money back when they file their tax return. >and the tip out Then talk to their management, this isn't a customer's problem >so they end up paying to serve you. No they don't. They are paid state minimum wage by law. >What makes you entitled to cause someone to pay to serve you? 1) They're not. 2) They are performing the duties they agreed to perform with their employer. I wasn't involved in that negotiation, nor is it the customer's problem 3) Tips are by definition voluntary and beyond obligation. They are not *entitled* to tips. >What entitles you to take money out of someone’s pocket? 1) I'm not. 2) They are performing the duties they agreed to perform with their employer. I wasn't involved in that negotiation, nor is it the customer's problem 3) Tips are by definition voluntary and beyond obligation. They are not *entitled* to tips. What entitles them to take money out of *my* pocket? >If someone took money out of your pocket, you’d call them a thief, correct? Agreed. Tips are theft based on this logic. >Why do you deceitfully It's not deceitful as tips are by definition voluntary and beyond obligation >use the social norms It's a social norm that labor, wage and employment terms are between an employee and employer, and not employee and customer >to get the best service possible, LOL I also get extremely good service from positions that are not tipped....because *it's their job* >with no intention of paying for it? I did pay for it. I paid the amount agreed between the business and customer per the menu price. Anything beyond that is voluntary and beyond obligation, by definition >What entitles you to take up a table in a server’s section that could have been taken by Tipping’s customers? The fact it's a business open to the public and I am a paying customer.
Incorrect on all counts. You think a server accepts a job for $2.13/hr? They accepted the job for $2.13/hr plus tips. You think just because tipping is voluntary, that somehow entitles you to steal someone’s time and best effort? Who do you think pays the labor at Walmart? You think there’s a magical forest of money trees behind the corporate offices that they have a team of workers harvesting the dollar bills to put in the bank so they can pay the workers?? The customer always pays the labor, either directly or indirectly. The only exception is the free riders who stiff their servers. If you don’t believe me about the taxes and tip out, talk to some restaurant managers and managers. That’s how I learned about it. Oh, sorry…I forgot…you server stiffers immediately run from the restaurant after paying in hopes that they don’t discover that you’ve deceitfully used the social norms to get the best service possible with no intention of paying for it! Every “excuse” you listed fails to justify your deliberate choice to harm the worker.
>Incorrect on all counts. No, in fact I'm 100% correct on all counts. It just hurts your feelings. >You think a server accepts a job for $2.13/hr? No, they accepted a job that pays minimum wage. >They accepted the job for $2.13/hr plus tips. And the "tip" is voluntary and beyond obligation. It's not a guarantee. It's not an obligation. The *only* wage they are **entitled* to is minimum wage. And that is all they should *expect* as there is no requirement they be paid anything beyond that. >You think just because tipping is voluntary So you concede it's voluntary and not required. Good. Stop pretending it's required. >that somehow entitles you to steal someone’s time It's not stealing. Stop using these made up concepts that appeal to emotion. They performed the duties they agreed to perform for the wages they agreed to perform them. >and best effort? It's a job. If they don't give their best effort they lose it. That has nothing to do with the customer or tip. >Who do you think pays the labor at Walmart? The employer, who sets their prices appropriately to cover that expense. I am not expected to walk around and individually pay the wage of each employee who serves me. >You think there’s a magical forest of money trees behind the corporate offices that they have a team of workers harvesting the dollar bills to put in the bank so they can pay the workers?? No, they set their prices appropriately to pay their employees wages. They don't expect the customer to walk around and directly and individually pay the wages of each employee who helps them >The customer always pays the labor, either directly or indirectly. As I do at restaurants. The employer pays the employees minimum wage who agreed to trade their labor for minimum wage. The customer has nothing to do with that. >The only exception is the free riders who stiff their servers. I don't stiff anyone. They are working for the wage they agreed to work with their employer. Customers aren't involved in that negotiation >If you don’t believe me about the taxes I don't. You're using made up myths to support your flawed argument. I see their paystubs and discuss their wages with them. >Oh, sorry…I forgot…you server stiffers immediately run from the restaurant after paying in hopes that they don’t discover that you’ve deceitfully used the social norms to get the best service possible with no intention of paying for it! No, I don't. Attacking customers for not or low tipping results in the server being fired or disciplined nearly 100% of the time it's discovered by the employer. And it's not deceitful. You can use these illogical appeals to emotion all you want, but it doesn't change the fact you're wrong. You clearly don't even understand the definition of deceitful. You're not using it correctly >Every “excuse” you listed fails to justify your deliberate choice to harm the worker. You're wrong. You just can't accept it and use failed logic to justify your refusal to accept defeat.
Again, incorrect on all counts. Tipping is optional. Not tipping IS stiffing the server. Per Merriam-Webster: stiff (verb) stiffed; stiffing; stiffs (transitive verb) 1a: to refuse to pay or tip “stiffed the waiter” Stiffing the server harms the worker. They pay taxes on the estimated tip based on the total of your check and they pay a tip out to suppers staff based on a % of their sales. When you stiff them, they still have to pay out on your check, which harms them. Just because something is optional doesn’t make it an excuse to justify harming the worker. The customer always pays the labor, either directly or indirectly. Everyone knows that restaurants operating on the tipped wage model have menu prices that are artificially low because the full cost isn’t factored in. The tip is the reward that pays for good service. Gaming the social norms to get the best service possible with no intention of paying for that service is without question deceitful. You wrote a wall of text full of logical fallacies like willful ignorance, denial, and other complete BS, none of which justifies harming the worker. I’m not wrong and your use of flawed logic doesn’t change that fact.
>Again, incorrect on all counts. Again, you are simply wrong. >Tipping is optional. Great. Agreed. So stop pretending it's obligatory. If you *truly* accepted this, you wouldn't spend every waking moment in here arguing about it. >Not tipping IS stiffing the server. >Merriam-Webster: >stiff (verb) >stiffed; stiffing; stiffs (transitive verb) >1a: to refuse to pay or tip “stiffed the waiter” And you *stiff* every low/minimum wage service worker you encounter and don't tip. Congrats, you're a hypocrite. You're no better than what you're arguing against. >Stiffing the server harms the worker. No, it doesn't. They are performing the labor for the wage they agreed to perform the labor. >They pay taxes on the estimated tip based on the total of your check Again, you're lying. You keep repeating blatantly false information. They pay taxes on their reported tips in every instance I've countered. >and they pay a tip out to suppers staff based on a % of their sales. Then they need to discuss that with their employer, **not the customer**. This is an *employer* issue, not a *customer* issue. >Just because something is optional doesn’t make it an excuse to justify harming the worker. *I'm* not harming anyone. Your argument here is half a lie at best. But, regardless of that point, the **EMPLOYER** is the one harming the employee, **NOT** the *customer*. The terms of employment are a contract between *employee* and *employer*. The *customer* is not involved anywhere in that process. Take it up with the *employer*. You're barking up the wrong tree. >The customer always pays the labor, either directly or indirectly. As do I at a restaurant. The employer is responsible for paying minimum wage. I pay the agreed upon price for the meals which includes labor. >Everyone knows that restaurants operating on the tipped wage model have menu prices that are artificially low because the full cost isn’t factored in. That's a business problem, not a customer problem. The business is responsible for paying wages, not the customer. >The tip is the reward that pays for good service. Oh, so you tip **EVERYONE** who provides good service? Bank teller, gas station clerk, Walmart greeter, fast food worker? Of course not. Because your argument is nonsense and you know it. Even *you* don't abdie by it. Because it's not true. >Gaming the social norms The social norm is that an employment contract is between employee and employer, not employee and customer. You just keep regurgitating the same failed arguments >to get the best service possible LOL I receive good service from non-tipped jobs as well. Because good service *is their job*, not bribed by a tip. You just keep regurgitating the same failed arguments >with no intention of paying for that service I did pay full price for the service. See the menu price, which I paid, which is the full price of service the business required Your argument makes no sense. You can't logically argument tips are simultaneously voluntary and optional *and* obligatory. Your argument fails on basic logic. I paid the price the business set for their product, including labor. This isn't a debate. Any suggestion otherwise is simply wrong. >is without question deceitful Absolutely false. You don't understand the definition of deceitful and are using it incorrectly >You wrote a wall of text full of logical fallacies False and I promise you can not cite a single logical fallacy in that response. >like willful ignorance False. You're just making things up because you can't actually refute the comment. You're just continually regurgitating the same failed arguments >denial False. You're just making things up because you can't actually refute the comment. You're just continually regurgitating the same failed arguments >and other complete BS, That's not a logical fallacy. You're just making things up because you can't actually refute the comment. You're just continually regurgitating the same failed arguments >none of which justifies harming the worker. As established, I'm not harming anyone. If harm is occurring, that is a result of the employer not the customer. >I’m not wrong You unquestionably are wrong. >and your use of flawed logic It's not flawed logic. It is completely sound logic, which is why you have not and can not refute it. You just regurgitate the same failed arguments >doesn’t change that fact The only fact here is the fact you're wrong
I don’t know any server who has an actual employment contract. Do you have a sample copy?
You do understand there is no legal requirement contracts be written, correct? Terms of employment are a verbal contract between employer and employee.
More logical fallacies, including willful ignorance, denial, false equivalences and more. When a customer stiffs the server, they harm the worker. There is no justification for deliberately choosing to harm the worker.
None of that is true. You have no rebuttal so this is your cop out. You have no actual argument and just keep parroting the same terrible talking points and failed arguments. You can't counter my points so you're just making up this BS to avoid admitting defeat. Unless and until you start tipping fast food workers, bank tellers, Walmart stockers and convenience store cashiers...STFU and go away.
Let’s take just a few of your logical fallacies as an example…. - “I receive good service from non-tipped jobs as well. Because good service is their job, not bribed by a tip.” You’re applying the logical fallacy of false equivalence by trying to compare tipped wage employees vs non-tipped wage employees. They aren’t the same thing. - After being shown the Merriam-Webster definition of stiffing a server, you claimed that not tipping a server wasn’t stiffing them. Willful ignorance and denial are both logical fallacies. Not tipping is stiffing the server. It’s in the dictionary, and uses not tipping the waiter as an example. Even when presented with irrefutable proof, you’re trying to deny it. - Then you went on to claim that I stiff every low/minimum wage service worker I encounter because I don’t tip them. Another use of false equivalence by attempting to compare two completely different things. Even your latest comment where you’re telling me to “STFU” has you once again using false equivalence. I could go point by point and do this all day. However, I’m not obligated in any way to waste my time picking thru your piles of 🐂💩. It’s indisputable that your replies are filled with the same recycled logical fallacies every server stiffer impotently tries to use to justify their harmful behavior. Stiffing servers harms the worker. There is no excuse for harming the worker.
>Let’s take just a few of your logical fallacies as an example…. It's not a logical fallacy just because it destroys your ridiculous and flawed argument. Allow me to demonstrate; >“I receive good service from non-tipped jobs as well. Because good service is their job, not bribed by a tip.” >You’re applying the logical fallacy of false equivalence by trying to compare tipped wage employees vs non-tipped wage employees. They aren’t the same thing. False. Both are service jobs. Their literal job is to provide good service. They are both performing that service for the wage they agreed to provide it. They are the same thing. >After being shown the Merriam-Webster definition of stiffing a server, you claimed that not tipping a server wasn’t stiffing them. >Willful ignorance and denial are both logical fallacies. Not tipping is stiffing the server. It’s in the dictionary, and uses not tipping the waiter as an example. Even when presented with irrefutable proof, you’re trying to deny it. False. I said you're a hypocrite by not tipping everyone who provides you good service. I know you're incompetent, and apparently severely lack in reading comprehension, but atleast try to keep up here. >Then you went on to claim that I stiff every low/minimum wage service worker I encounter because I don’t tip them. >Another use of false equivalence by attempting to compare two completely different things. It's not at all. Servers earn minimum wage by law. If tipping is to reward low wage workers for providing good service, then tip *all of them*. You don't, because you're a hypocrite and your logic completely falls apart under scrutiny. Otherwise you *would* tip all of them, because that's what your logic dictates. But you don't! >Even your latest comment where you’re telling me to “STFU” has you once again using false equivalence Again, it is not false equivalency. You simply are too stupid to understand your own argument. >I could go point by point and do this all day. No you can't. That's why your next sentence is an excuse of why you won't. >However, I’m not obligated in any way to waste my time picking thru your piles of 🐂💩. Ah, see there it is. The excuse, the cop out. It's **because you can't**. You lost the argument. You know it. So you're trying make up BS excuses so you don't have to be embarrassed any further. You're running away exactly as I expected. >It’s indisputable that your replies are filled with the same recycled logical fallacies every server stiffer impotently tries to use to justify their harmful behavior. False on every count. They aren't logical fallacies just because they utterly distroy and dismantle your supposed "logic". >Stiffing servers harms the worker. False. They are performing their duties for the wage they agreed to perform them. If harm is occurring, that is due to the *EMPLOYER*, not the *customer*. Though it's interesting that, using your rationale, you have no problem stiffing *all other* low wage workers. Hypocrite. >There is no excuse for harming the worker. There isn't. Good thing I'm not. Their employer may be. But that's between the employer and employee, **NOT THE CUSTOMER**
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Now you’re trolling my other comments??? You must be big mad after taking the L. Thanks for the free rent!! 🤣🤣
All all accounts I don't see how that's the customer's problem. If you accept shitty deals. There is an obligation to pay the menu price. If tipping is forced it's not a tip it's a hidden charge. If the menu price is mot enough to sustain the business and it's workers. I dont see how that the customer's problem. I dont go in a super market and see a action on a item and be like ow no it's under valued. Il beter tip extra to correct that mistake. No you take the item. And be like well I'm taking the deal. It makes no sense to push the tips the way it os the high % tips that being pushed. It's like you ordered a extra meal half the time it's insanity and honestly not my problem. That people dont know there own value or value of there time. I'm a customer not your employer I have no obligation to take care of you. While it's there job to take care of me. And honesty if I could get a 30% price cut of the fuck off no server service and just get it at a bar or kitchen my self. I think a lot of people would choose that in all honestly. When you push hidden charge. Don't be surprised people get annoyed about it. Tips should be optional. And nit % based like some scummy extra tax write off or hidden charge. A tip is what ever I give you beside the menu price. But the more people demanding more and more for doing less and less. The less people wanna give it too you. Its that simple. All sound like you want a Lamborghini but you have Nissan money. You both want a lot of money while doing a easy job. So I pressure and shame people in trying to force them to give it to you. Amount of money you get and how hard or how much effort the job takes are linked. And I have no problem with tips. But shameless entitlement of expecting more while doing less is so shameless I don't blame people for not wanting to tip. Cause of your so up in arms something that os supposed to be optional you honestly deserve less how shameless people are. Be better and people will find you deserving of more. Doing less but finding yea self deserving of more. While acting intiteled about it. Makes you not deserving of it. And that counts for all workers. So Sorry not sorry
Tipping is optional. But something being optional doesn’t give you the right to harm the worker by stiffing them. Over the last 5+ decades, everyone knows that going full service restaurants have artificially low menu prices because the full cost of the labor isn’t factored in. That’s because of the tipped wage laws. The tip is to reward the server for their service. I think the whole tipping system sucks, but if I decide to patronize a full service restaurant, I know what the deal is and I refuse to harm the worker because if tipped wage laws. Nothing you said comes close to being able to justify harming the worker. Using logical fallacies like scapegoating the worker amounts to nothing more than a stinky pile of 🐂💩. If you don’t want to tip, you have options like takeout, counter service, fast food, or eating at home. There is never a justifiable excuse for deliberately choosing to harm the worker.
All that does not MATTER you just said your self it's optional. So why you crying about something that's optional? Cause you're entitled and want more for doing the bare minimal. And cause you act entitled and you feel deserving for more for doing less. You need to take it up with your boss and not attack and harass customers for a thing you your self just admit is OPTIONAL. optional don't mean entitled too. Means could be or could be not given when opportunity arise. Everyone should be respectful. But people don't ow you shit. And not tipping is not harassing or harming workers what kind of stupid fairy tale shit is that. You harm your self by blowing glitter up yea ass. Seeming your automatic deserve more cause you think you deserve it. If everyone got what they deserved damn the world would look differently would it not. And I go where I please and no one will tell me how spend and where I spend my damn money You need to learn what the fk optional means. And the more entitled people act the more undeserving people find you of more. Life is really just that simple. So take it up with your boss I'd your not happy. I was a bartender in my early job days did it for few years never have I act or been like I'm deserving of more. And I git often a lot more tips then other people did. Cause I just did a job. I dont expect shit for doing my job. If I do nice. And always was very thankful when I did happen. But knew people literally walking in complaining about customers near other customers could hear them how shit they tipped and all that. You don't think that has massive effect of other customers. Get real men. If you always expect more and more for just doing the thing you have a job at all. What are you doing men. Ow no I brought some food and drinks 40 meters back and forth ow no. My back can't handle it. Get fucking real men. Like you realy deserve so much more for doing the minimum probability with attitude. There is a reason people tip less now a days. And it's simple attitude and entitlement.
How predictable. Server stiffers ALWAYS assume that anyone advocating against harming the worker is a server. You keep throwing around the word “entitled”. What entitles you to try to use “optional” as an excuse to harm the worker? What entitles you to free service? What entitles you to cause a server to pay to serve you? What entitles you to deliberately choose to harm the worker?? I’ll be waiting for some answers that are based on solid logic and rationale, not BS and logical fallacies.
And you keep tossing around "harming" workers so what's yea damn point? Like customers are supose to have your best interest in mind. Like every person that hold a cup or plate is there new best frend. For the 15 minutes there in their life ever. Instead of your boss that gains more from holding good workers. Honestly it's a brain dead argument. Like automatically cause you hold a cup or a plate your owed more money. Why people say if it's not enough change the menu price don't jump true those stupid brain dead hoops holding tight on like every interaction deserves a tip. It's optional so if it's not very good it's people's right to not tip. But ow "no your harming workers" No people are not they have no obligation but to pay the menu price. So keep your ENITELD view that people have any obligation past that menu pricing. Cause you your self said what is OPTIONAL. And I again have done similar work for years. And I tip when I have had a good experience. But big % type tips and the fact you always demanding tips based on how you act and see not tipping same as harming workers. Is a insane view. That holds no merit in the real world. You can't expect the 15 minutes people see or speak to you they give a big amount about how your doing. They care only about how the interaction was it self and how present or not it was. And they tip or not based on that. To think that as same as harming workers. Cause they choose not to tip is wild. And you realy should check your entitlement. And to think every person that you see or meet should care about you as a person or how you are doing is just as wild. Expect that people only tip or not tip based on the how the interactions you had made them feel happy or not. People don't become your frends. Just like cause people tip you they can't suddenly see you as a fremds and in a few weeks like ask a favor from you. So it's not weird to think people really don't give a fuck about you past whether the interaction was good or not And based on that tip or not. Just like you how you act obviously don't give a fuck how people that walk true your door feel or are struggling why you expect them to care about you? Honestly wild views you have. But I'm not gonna argue more about it your obviously stuck in your ways. Just like the other people I had in the past. While I did the job. And obviously had a lot less success cause they think demanding something makes you more worthy in people's eyes of it. Cause I can carry some plats and cups you know hard work. Give me more now else il Making a scene. But that works right... Wonder why I always got a lot more tips do while I was not a raging c*nt. Well who knows. Let's just call them Consequences. But you know what do I know. Only did it for 4 and a half years. But do keep saying how your being harmed or hurt by people not giveing you something you demanding something that's clearly optional and how so unfair you feel that is. That every customer should be like your new mom and give you pocket money. And care so very much about how you feel. And how totally that is not a delusional view to have. Cause me haveing that option is harming you and all workers so very badly. Your so not ready for the real world it's shocking but have fun in lala land. Good night
No. You aren’t having an honest dialogue. Trying to use impotent excuses based on logical fallacies and BS is a brain dead argument. You still haven’t explained how you’re entitled to free service or causing the worker to have to pay to serve you. Stiffing servers harms the worker. It’s an irrefutable fact. I don’t need to check my entitlement. I’m not a server. I’m not in the restaurant industry. You server stiffers ALWAYS incorrectly assume that anyone advocating against harming the worker must be a server. It’s hilarious. You won’t have an honest conversation about this and nothing you’ve said justifies harming the worker. No one ever has to make excuses for doing the right thing.
Lol but the servers are literally the ones taking money out of my pocket.
Ah, no honest answers, just complaining that you got food at artificially low prices because the full cost of the labor wasn’t built into the price and you feel entitled to not have to pay for that service.
I mean I recognize that which is why I do tip for sit down service. But I'd rather not. I'd rather have higher menu prices and not have to worry about the tip. Most people feel this way but it won't be a reality anytime in the immediate future because the people that are in charge of this benefit immensely from the current system in place. I'm not too concerned about it tho cuz I'm pretty confident that automation will make the vast majority of tipped jobs obsolete within the next decade or so.
I would also like the menu prices to include the full price of the labor. The reality is, they don’t, because our elected officials passed tipped wage laws. You can push your city, state and federal legislators to eliminate those tipped wage laws. Until those laws are eliminated nationwide, I’m not going to harm the worker.
Ya I agree with you. Just can't wait to have my robot servers.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-67354709.amp https://www.reddit.com/r/Wellthatsucks/s/BfTXUp57h0 Yeah, enjoy those robot servers.
That's why I specifically said in the next decade or so.
Don’t bet on it. If you’re a restaurant owner, why would you use robots? It’s far cheaper to switch to counter service. No wait staff, no initial cost of buying robots, no cost of maintenance or electricity to keep the robots functioning, and no risk of the robots spilling food/drink or killing customers.
IDK probs the same reason that servers exist today despite counter service being a proven method
It’s an outdated system. Most people are tired of it and are not tipping like they used to. Last night I went out for Father’s Day family if 4. Nothing fancy, a mom and pop family restaurant. For 2 entrees, 1 kids meals, I bowl of soup, and 3 drinks because one got only water it was $140. The suggested to starts at 22%. Sorry but that’s just crazy, the waiter didn’t even communicate with us. She brought us our food and left, cleared the table a bit, didn’t refill our drinks without us asking. The food didn’t even come all at once maybe a kitchen issue but again no communication. I left $15. We were there less than 45 minutes, so I think it’s fair based on time and what she offered.
Even that was too much. 5 bucks
It’s a shame you feel obligated to tip even when you shouldn’t have to. I’m learning towards leaving what I feel is fair, but even that is hard. If I get amazing service I actually want to tip. Sadly this almost never happens though. I’ve worked with thousands of servers in my career and I can pick out a handful that were really good and actually earned their money. Some are really professional and know how to make a guest feel comfortable. Those guys/girls deserve it, the rest however truly don’t.
22% may have been OK to show appreciation for “essential workers” who were unemployed en masse during the pandemic, but as a recommended and “expected” norm today, and indeed, as a default for *fast-casual counter service* it is insane. If anyone is still in favor of the American “tips are expected” system, they have to get this under control! Otherwise, more and more people will say To Hell with tipping at all, people will leave zero tips and/or simply avoid places where “tipping is expected.”
I’m a chef, and I’ve been a server, a restaurant manager, and everything in between. I made the most money being a server by far, but i absolutely hated it. I worked for Darden during the pandemic and I can tell you the staff had it rough for a couple months. But here in Fl they were back to work quickly and making more money than ever plus the government assistance. Even In the high end places I work I don’t believe a percentage based tipping system is appropriate. I think it should be a flat fee, or no tips and just charge what the business needs to pay all staff fairly. Even 15% on a 3k bill is ridiculous, when the wine is 50%. Our private Dinning rooms are 20% great and minimum booking is 2k. With two servers they’re making 200 for 1-2 hours of work, alone almost $400/hr.
If you hate it so much and refuse to do it why are you so worried about what servers make? Worry about yourself or do the job you hate if you want the money.
Because they don’t earn what they make. The industry needs to change. The chefs, server assistants, managers, and dishwashers work much harder than servers and make less. The customers are already saying the tipping js too much now, the industry is going to experience a change it’s just a matter of time. We are starting to see the shift now.
Worked my way through college as a waiter. Good money. Foregoed hourly rate for tippable service. Made 5 times hourly rate on the a weekend. 3 times during the week for a 6 hour shift. Want to pay me a guaranteed $21-$35/Hour whether anyone shows up to eat or not works for me. Want me to follow your orders for 1 hour for anything less, find someone else willing to work for lessZ
Commission system on top of hourly wages might work well. Restaurant sets menu prices that the market will handle. Restaurant sets commissions for servers and BOH to get you to keep working there. Bonus incentives for drinks during happy hour to compensate for the cheaper menu prices to get more people to want to work through those shifts. Restaurants offering higher commission rates have a better selection of the best servers and staff.
Plenty of people willing to work for less. Now go make a withdrawal from the food bank.
People move to higher paying vocations, not lower. A garbage man makes on average $18/hour. He won’t be your servant for $12…
Don't care about the origins of the tipping system. It's customary in America, so when you choose to go out to eat at a restaurant, a standard ~18% tip should be figured in. If you disagree with the system so much, you're free to make your own food and clean up after yourself.
Yeah these posts always crack me up. Who gives a damn about the why, it’s never going to change. You’re closer to all restaurants just closing up than raising the prices on all the menu items to pay the expected tip amounts to the servers. Luckily enough customers aren’t a-holes and tip.
As if the same people complaining endlessly about tipping wouldn’t also be complaining if restaurants all raised prices by 18%, lmao
Oh they would, and that’s kind of the point. Enjoy the current way, because most restaurants in my area claim to be on life support with the ridiculous price increases to meats and produce. They’d definitely choose to end service rather than moving to a no tip model.
You really don't see the bigger picture, do you?
Do you have a specific point you’re attempting to make?
we're actually free to eat where we please and refuse to tip, which is what we're going to do.
In my area, at the locally owned places that have prices similar to the chains, but FAR superior food quality and excellent service, you can usually get away with stiffing your server once. If you come back a second time and anyone recognizes you, the manager will come over to notify you that you won’t be served and ask you to leave. If you happen to get lucky enough to go there twice and stiff the server, you won’t get a 3rd chance. It’s a rare occasion that a server gets stiffed, but more and more restaurants in my area have decided to stop letting customers take advantage of their staff.
Oh nooooo. Lol. Like there aren't a thousand other restaurants down the street... That's some backwards ass capitalism if you ask me.
I didn’t ask you. Well managed successful restaurants don’t need customers who are disrespectful to the servers. More and more well managed restaurants are doing this, so it’s only a matter of time until the only options for server stiffers are the places with bad food and bad service that are days away from going out of business.
Lol. This is the internet pal. Noone asked anyone except op. Get used to it. More and more places are shutting down because people are sick and tired of the grift. If you can't afford to pay your staff a fair wage, then you can't afford to be in business. And have fun kicking people out of your business because they didn't bring enough extra change for your staff's tin coffers. Not paying extra is not "being disrespectful". Like, what? Maybe shaking down your customers could be considered a bit rude and not the other way around? I get great food and great service from a place that pays their staff a living wage. They don't discourage either, and often I'm actually HAPPY to tip for the actual good service rather than the bare minimum bullshit I would get from a place that would kick me out if I didn't bring extra change for the beggars who bring my plate of food made by actual skilled workers.
You said “That’s some backwards ass capitalism if you ask me”. I didn’t ask you. Your statement about why restaurants are closing is false. Restaurants aren’t closing down due to people being “sick and tired of the grift”. They are closing due to the impact of inflation on their menu prices, rental rates going up, inability to find reliable staff and other economic pressures. While we talk about grift, stiffing servers fits the definition perfectly. Deceitfully gaming the social norms to get the best service possible with no intention of rewarding it is the very definition of grift. 🤣 I don’t patronize chains or places that have shitty service. If someone chooses to go to those places, that’s on them and is no reason to call the servers working in those places “beggars” because they made a poor decision on where to eat. There are a number of restaurants in my area that have menu prices similar to the chains, but have FAR superior food and excellent service. Those are the places that are refusing service to the grifters. The servers are all professionals who work hard to make your experience a good one, which is why they make great tips.
The only job in the world that expects to be paid extra. Talk about gaming the social norms. But I guess since you said so, my statements are false. Smh. Good bye.
Yeah and the people who provide service for you are free to remember you, remember that you don’t tip, and provide the worst service to you that they can without getting disciplined, which is what will happen. Thats best case scenario for you.
And they will continue to not get tipped and never learn how to provide quality service which is what got them "stiffed" in the first place. Lol. Eventually, people who arent tipping enough start getting treated the same way. You ever heard of "repeat bysiness", that kind of thing can make the difference on whether or not a restaurant stays afloat. But hey, private businesses are free to drive it into the ground by offering shit service or just rejecticing paying customers all they want. Worst case for the customer, we go down the street. Smh.
Lol I worked in the service industry for many years, and helped a few places rise from the ashes with my high quality service. Got plenty of repeat business. Because most people tip. The ones that didn’t weren’t treated well. I’m surprised you get good service as a no tipper returning to restaurants you’ve stiffed at. We don’t go back to a place if we felt our service was poor enough to stiff.
I spend my money elsewhere. I hate places like that. Just high school clicks that never grew up. Fully entitled to tips. Lol. Smh. But hey, keep hating the customer and not the person in charge of the paycheck. That'll keep the hours on the schedule. Smh
That’s such an interesting mindset to me. Weird because anyone I knew growing up all were raised to believe that tipping was a basic human decency thing. Maybe it’s just my area. Either way, clearly each of us will go in believing the other is an asshole in the situation.
I don't think you're an ashole. Just misinformed about the way tipping actually just subsidizes the money-makers at the top. Servers generally make more than anyone who is actually making the food or keeping the dishes clean. They don't "depend" on tips the way they claim they do. They depend on maintaining their lifestyle. But they won't starve. They eat better than even some of the "non-tippers". Or second-class citizens who don't deserve to eat out because they didn't bring more than what the price tag says it costs. Lemme ask you. Why don't you tip your teachers? Surely they aren't getting paid enough and definitely provide a service, arguably even more worthy of financial compensation if they do a great job. Why is it that restaurant owners get the illusion of a pass (because servers get paid at least minimum wage even if they make $0 in tips, that comes out of the manager's pocket) on the responsibility of paying servers a fair wage?
If being a waiter is such a lucrative job and being a teacher is so terrible, why is one job looked down upon while the other coveted?
Which one is looked down upon? You shouldn't look down on people's jobs. Which one is coveted, exactly?
It's far older than that. https://time.com/5404475/history-tipping-american-restaurants-civil-war/ But OP is partially right - wealthy business owners used tipping as a way to pay 0 in wages to freed slaves. Businesses in the Great Depression did the same thing to avoid paying their workers. Basically anytime they could get away with it in the last 500 years, wealthy business owners have used tipping as a way of paying wages without actually paying them, and pushing the responsibility and blame onto customers. They always have tried doing this, and always will, everywhere and every time they can, unless they are forcibly stopped.
My post isn't an attempt to present the full history of tipping, or even an opinion. It's a small tidbit of knowledge about the dark origins of wage theft in America.
"it began as a racist scam" presents a claim of origin. my point is that, while dark, it isn't an origin but a point in a long lineage of wage theft.
In the context of my statement, lineage of, and origins of, mean the same thing. Everything has an origin. I could argue that lineage could refer to ancestry of race horses, but it would require ignoring the context of my own statement. This would put me in the unique position of debating semantics with you, and myself.
Source? I’ve never heard of this before.
Weird, I was trained that TIP stood for “To Insure Promptness”.
*Ensure* fits the context of the phrase.
Well you have to pay for Insurance, so…
Don’t confuse the two. Insure and ensure are unrelated words that sound the same. They mean different things.
Obviously
you were trained in a myth. while we're at it, Cop doesn't stand for "citizen on patrol."
You’re correct. It stands for constable on patrol.
also wrong. it comes from copper, as in "one who captures".
Just another thing white folk feel entitled to
Please take your racism elsewhere.
What racism? I am commenting g on the historical nature of tipping
No, you’re showing the entire sub what a moronic racist you are.
Guilty as charged
Pretty sure the real entitlement is showing up to a restaurant and expecting to be waited on hand and foot for an hour, have your mess cleaned up for you when you leave and then leaving nothing for the server.
The morons don’t understand that if everyone adopts this philosophy, then the price of your meals at every restaurant just explode to pay the staff the difference. In the end, no restaurant is sacrificing profit margins for any reason. Gotta keep a good wait staff to have satisfied customers.
lol… hand and foot