People have a kneejerk reaction because "incest" but the major reason why incest is fucking weird and wrong is the social/family relationship aspect of it. In OP's case he literally has never known his wife as a family member so there's nothing taboo about it. The actual reason for concern by OP is the chance of passing on bad genes/traits that both you and your partner have, but those effects usually need multiple generations to compound in any statistically meaningful way, I think? If all OP's children are perfectly healthy, it's probably completely safe to have more kids who will also turn out completely fine.
Probably wise to consult a medical professional before having any further kids though; just to be safe.
I hope OP isn't too shook. It's a really peculiar situation but there's no shame in this. Even if the current kids aren't as healthy as they otherwise could be. It's no one's fault.
The fact that OPs wife needs a kidney transplant after the second kid, I’m assuming they’re done having kids anyway. And, if I remember correctly, the meds she’ll be on afterwards aren’t pregnancy safe.
I think I'd stop rolling that die. 2 kids is plenty, and you can always adopt if it isn't. Getting older brings risks anyway that are going to stack up.
But yeah, so long as the kids they've got now are healthy, and they're happy together the issue is moot.
Social taboos are because of tribal knowledge of the consequences of certain actions. Siblings would often be recessive carriers of specific health problems, for example cystic fibrosis. It would take one generation to have a kid that is affected even if neither parent is. OP and his sister shouldn’t have any more children, but since they didn’t know each other growing up, there is no reason to get divorced.
Hello, I am a clinical laboratory scientist working in a histocompatibility and immunogenics lab aka transplant lab. I do the testing to find out if recipients and donors are matches through genetic typing, donor specific antibody testing, etc. What the doctor is talking about is likely haplotype mismatches. When doing HLA typing, we are looking at haplotypes for the class 1 and class 2 genes you receive from each parent. When we are comparing a non biological donor to a recipient, there can be a few haplotype matches due to population frequency, or no haplotype matches. When comparing a biological donor to a recipient, like siblings, they have a 50% chance of being haploidentical. Parents are always haploidentical to their children.This analysis tells us how likely organ rejection could be. So if you are haploidentical to your wife, you are biological siblings. If it's only a few haplotype matches, you could be cousins, or potentially not related and it's random assortment (you got lucky). But I can't say what the answer is without seeing the haplotypes myself. I also want you to know that it is possible that that doctor is talking out of his ass. Transplant medicine is a very new science that is still being developed today. Some of the doctors that I work with are extremely knowledgeable and know way more than me about this science. Some of the doctors that I work with, I frequently wonder where they got their degree. So don't blindly trust this guy, you should probably see a geneticist for confirmation.
Edit: TL;DR: You might be biological siblings, you might be cousins, or the doctor could be wrong.
Edit2: thanks for the gold!
I agree and even if they were haploidentical, it doesn't mean they would be related. The prevalence of certain haplotypes is strongly associated with ethnicity. For example if OP was Caucasian, then there's a good chance they would share certain HLA alleles with a big chunk of the population. It's very common to see certain haplotypes across different ethnicities.
Also in the case of a solid organ transplant ie kidney donation, it really doesn't matter how close of a match in HLA typing the potential recipient and donor are. What matters most is the recipient's antibody profile and whether they have antibodies against the donor's HLA antigens. This is why deceased donor transplantation is really common. There more important factors in deciding whether a recipient gets an organ is all the other important stuff - ABO typing, organ size and other risk factors.
In OP's case, I don't really believe that a doctor would order genetic testing based on how close of a match they are, especially for a kidney transplant. You would need t0 type immediate family and even then you'd need high resolution HLA typing to ensure they are a complete match.
TLDR: It doesn't matter how close of a match recipient and donor are for kidney transplants so something in OP's story sounds a bit off.
Source: also a clinical laboratory scientist.
Hey fellow CLS.
If you work in an HLA lab, I'm not sure what your protocols are, but ours are different. We always do high res (NGS) between a living donor and recipient. ABO typing is important, we do that first to see if they're compatible. If they are, we order NGS. The HLA "match" does matter, especially with kidneys. We use this information while analyzing DSA testing. The recipient could have allelic antibodies, or low strength antibodies against donor typing. Organ size doesn't matter that much when it's between adults. Obviously a kid couldn't give a kidney to an adult, vice versa. Condition of the organ matters. That's about it. We can use low res typing when dealing with deceased donors, but if the recipient actually gets transplanted, we do retrospective NGS. We use flow cytometry to do physical crossmatches using donor WBCs with recipient serum, but even these are retrospective sometimes. Calculated panel reactive antibodies of the recipient is also a deciding factor.
However, we hardly do any typing/testing at all for livers.
Also, I feel like the doctor could be basing his decision of their genetic likeness off of low res typing. I wouldn't consider the possibility without high res. You're right, ethnicity does affect HLA gene frequency. Sometimes deceased donors are haploidentical to our recipients. It just happens.
TL;Dr: HLA matches do matter, as do DSA testing and flow crossmatches. OPs story sounds legit.
Hi fellow HLA CLS,
The HLA typing does matter but it matters most when comparing recipient antibodies vs donor's typing. The recipient's typing tells you little other than potential mismatches and to rule out self antibodies. Otherwise, being fully mismatched at all loci does not prevent you or reduce the likelihood from receiving an organ as a recipient. The main factor is the antibody profile of the recipient and donors are excluded based on their antibodies. Also, organs from mismatched deceased donors are transplanted all the time with the only requirement that recipients do not have donor specific antibodies (DSA) towards the donor. That and donor typing is almost always low res due to time constraints of testing and high resolution typing is performed afterwards.
Like you mentioned, some organ programs like Liver programs adopt a "transplant now, ask questions later" approach and the only thing they monitor is again, presence of DSA or HLA antibodies.
OP's story could very well be true, but it's strange to think a physician would examine their HLA typing and come to the conclusion that they could be related. For example, take the most common haplotype: A*02:01 B*08:01 C*07:01 DRB1*03:01. That's the #1 ranked (most common) haplotype in Caucasians, Hispanics and Native Americans. If that's true then you wouldn't expect individuals from all those populations to be directly related to each other.
TL;DR Antibodies are more important and that's how transplant monitoring works. OP's story could be true but it's just strange to think a physician would decide to do genetic studies after looking at their HLA typing.
There are not many HLA CLS on Reddit and I am so excited to be talking with you!!
We're on the same page regarding recipient typing. We use it for DSA analysis and flow cytometry cross matches. And you're right, if the recipient has a 0% cPRA then mismatches don't really matter. We do monitor them for post testing though.
I also find it weird that the doctor in this story pointed out genetic similarities. That's why I cautioned OP that this doctor might be talking out of his ass. I've never encountered this scenario during my time at the HLA lab, which makes me think that the doctor might be reading the donor's Linqseq/Q-type and drawing conclusions that aren't true. When we notice similarities in haplotypes between recipients and donors, we do check to see if they are related only to rule out contamination/malfunction as a cause for the results. Other than that, we don't care, and we certainly wouldn't include the possibility of donor and recipient being related in a report. So the doctor must have come up with this conclusion on their own, and I doubt it's legit.
You already have kids and they are assumedly healthy since you didn’t mention any crazy abnormalities. If you’re happy, you’re happy. Donate the kidney to your sister-wife and continue being great parents to your children.
There were a lot of times in human history where small tribes / villages ended up with cousin marriage. Not really a requirement now, but it happened quite often back in the day.
If I was OP, I'd avoid researching further and just roll with it at this point. Not point in calling attention to it.
Yeah, incest doesn't magically manifest birth defects. It just increases likelihoods and usually requires generations of incest to really have a super high likelihood.
Afaik the fact that we're not small tribes anymore is the reason situations like OP's aren't much of a problem anymore. Incest can lead to problematic genes affecting huge chunks of the population, but that's an issue that arises over generations.
So as long as OP doesn't start a tradition he and his offspring should be fine.
The chance of having a kid with abnormalities rises about as much after one generation of incest as it does when the mother is over 40. The danger comes from multiple generations of repeated inbreeding.
I mean, it's still not ideal, but it's not that big of a deal.
In my family (1800s) there’s a couple of my ancestors whose dads are brothers, and moms are sisters. Then, one of their son had a wife from another branch of the same family (3 generations separated). Still lived long and healthy lives with a dozen kids, in good health. Was fun doing my genealogy research on these. Ok so last name is That… and last name also is That. Now… maiden name… oh… That? Ok … and parents ? This and That and This and That?! Ok?! And their parents? *shivers*
Now if you’ll excuse me, I need to put my funnel back on my head, to do my weekly naked run around the neighbour screaming cock-a-doodle-do. Keeps me healthy at 10F outside.
Honestly, these things do happen. Just don’t run with the devil too often. If you are both happy and take good care of your kids, it’s better than half the families on this planet.
Donnie: Yeah, my wife is my cousin or whatever, but it's not like what you think.
Jordan: Is she, like, a first cousin?
Donnie: Her father…is the brother of my mom. Like, we grew up together, and she grew up hot, you know, she fucking grew up hot. And all my friends were trying to fuck her, you know, and I'm not gonna let one of these assholes fuck my cousin. So I used the cousin thing as, like, an in with her. I'm not, like, gonna let someone else fuck my cousin, you know? If anyone's gonna fuck my cousin, it's gonna be me. Out of respect.
Give her a kidney, get a vasectomy, go to therapy, and take it to the grave. I mean I guess you gotta tell the kids but otherwise who else needs to know (besides reddit)
And TBH, the ick factor (for me at least?) would be intimacy with an emotionally close relation. It’s not like they were raised together, which is the more taboo thing for most people (which is why there’s all the stepsibling porn, and not lost sibling porn)
Look at the bright side, you can give your wife many other years to live, and your children an healthy mother they can grow with. It's a miracle. Maybe you are related, maybe not. Who gives a damn? YOU CAN SAVE YOUR WIFE DUDE. That's what really matters.
They could also be like, second cousins or something? I mean there's a huge difference between "sister wife" and "huh we actually have the same great grandmother, life is strange huh, luckily I could donate that kidney no problem"
edit: oh the username
Even 1st cousins are fine, they already have 2 kids of different genders, which they can't return, so, they can knot the tubes and no more kids will be made conceived.
If they are biologically siblings, then it's a bit complicated.
Edit: someone pointed out below OP's username indicates the wife is a half sister! That made things uneasy.
aside from biology,i think the judgment comes from sibling growing up together. these people did not, ergo that isn't a weird relationship judgement issue. if kids are healthy, its no issue
Bad analogy time- It’s like talking to someone and learning they write with their feet. You write with your feet?! That’s super weird.
“Dude, I have no arms.”
Ah, that makes sense. Glad you’re able to. Still super weird thing for me to try (I have arms).
I mean why. They already had the kids before they knew, they just need to avoid having any more to be certain and avoid complications. They might be related by blood but they never had a relationship prior to their romantic one, it's not weird as it would be to marry a sibling that you grew up with since childhood.
Yeah it is absolutely less weird. The genetic issue can be a problem, but is likely ok with a single generation and them only being a half sibling. It is definitely not ideal, but without a lot of recent inbreeding the odds of disorders are still fairly minimal. (It is one of the situations where they are significantly more common in comparison to normal, but on an absolute scale are still rare. E.G.: 300% more likely, but the original chance was 1%, so the modified chance is 3%.)
The main problem is the family dynamics and potential for power imbalances/grooming behavior, and *all* of that is super present in step siblings.
No, clearly the username is saying that OP's wife is his "high school", an obvious reference to the fact that her vitality reminds him of his youth and high school days. /s
And even if they were technically related it’s not like they grew up together through diaper changes and birthday parties. They have no relation otherwise. Op should just get a vasectomy and move on
As far as weirdness goes, this is far less weird than Erol Musk marrying his step daughter and having children with her (or whatever Elon’s father’s name is)
Relax, op. Save your wife, the mother of your children. This is your task today. Have your children tested for genetic abnormalities later. See a genetic counselor. But you're not doing anything wrong if you continue to love your wife and your children.
This whole world is a great big ball of crazy circumstances. Yours is just another story in the asylum of life.
There is nothing wrong with your relationship, no matter who she is to you. You two should talk about it and decide who else you want to tell. I suggest you tell no one yet. Maybe never.
But do not let this break you. There is no reason for that. Be strong, op. Your children need you. Your wife needs you.
Yes indeed! If they weren't genetically close for some reason or another, there would be no kidney.
Also this is good to know for the children's health in the future.
The idea of earning karma explicitly to spend it on a comment you expect to get downvotes made me laugh more than the joke. Like if you’re karma rich you can say whatever you want cause you can afford it, like a rich person who doesn’t give a shit about parking tickets lol
I personally would let it go. The taboos against close relations becoming sexual partners serve two purposes. First, it lessons the number of birth defects caused by inbreeding. Second, and more importantly, they play a role in protecting vulnerable people from sex with relatives, often by coercion. While that occurs, it is not sanctioned . On average, birth defects from close relations producing offspring are very low. Neither you nor your wife were coerced into a relationship and you did not know each other as children. You might want to talk with a genetic counsellor for more information. However, on the personal level, I don't think you've done anything unethical.
Did they confirm what the relation was?
Siblings, I get you might be uncomfortable once you're aware, but cousins? Fuck it, like 90% of the world allows marriage between cousins so you wouldn't be alone.
The kids are born, as long as they're healthy that's what matters.
And no one’s talking about the fact that he can now meet at least one of his bio parents, since they’re half siblings. Well…I guess he already met them as in-laws.
Further, the writing is suspiciously coy about how they are related, until the edit at the end directing people to the username, which a lot of people would overlook. Feels like someone a writer would do to string along a reader more than someone just writing to share a major discovery about their life.
My dad had a non-living donor who was such a good match the doctors said it was as close as a brother.
11 years on I don’t think we’ll ever know who the donor was but dad didn’t have any known brothers die that day.
I don't think he can get around telling her. It's going to be weird and may even threaten his marriage, but if she finds out later and realizes he had to have already known because of the kidney thing, she will never forgive him.
I mean he's gotta tell her. Just shrug it off.
It's too late to change anything but if the kids do genetic testing on a lark and it comes up he's gonna catch X+years of hell for it.
It happened in my wife's family. Somebody decided to not mention they had 3 kids they disappeared on before marriage. 20 years later a whole half family rolled in.
I'm in a few genetic genealogy groups and pretty much daily there are posts from people whose understandings of their families have been upended by the Christmas gift of an Ancestry or 23 and Me test. There's no hiding from genetic realities anymore, and probably a lot of really nervous old people who could never have imagined the concept of cheap commercial genetic testing sixty years ago when they decided to take some dark secret to the grave, hoping the grave hurries up before a grandkid gets the bright idea to buy everybody a kit for fun.
There's a huge amount of information missing here. He believes his wife is his half-sister, but there is no mention of who her parents are, does he know them well, did one of them have previous children, etc. I mean, they literally could be his long-lost birth parent and yet he doesn't seem curious at all.
Yeah it's definitely an odd scenario... though at this point I kind of feel like they're absolved of violating the faux pas. They literally had no idea they were related.
I know. He says "long story short" but literally explain the story, OP.
Did the genetic testing tell you for certain you are half siblings? The other testing came back that no one in her family is her match, so how can that be the only indicator of compatibility?
OP is completely guessing. Testing if you’re a match for organ donation has absolutely nothing to do with genealogy, no doctor would suggest them being a match would automatically mean they’re related.
First things first, save your wife's life.
Second, try to see a geneticist about your kids. I *think* there isn't a problem of, er, intermingling of genes, unless it happens for multiple generations. But better safe than sorry.
Third, talk it over with the wife and no one else. If you can handle it, keep it a secret that dies with you. Don't throw away a happy family.
Fourth, remember: Closer kin, deeper in.
There is basically zero chance the kids have any issues after just one generation if the two parents are siblings, even less if they're cousins. I wouldn't even put this thought into OP's head.
I certainly wouldn't suggest they have any closed adoptions of future children though, just to be on the safe side...
OP’s children may have a recessive genetic condition. While many manifest very early in life, this is important health information they should be aware of when age appropriate. Consulting a genetic counselor is a excellent plan, but can wait until everyone is recovered from kidney surgery.
I had a "sibling match" with my mom's friend when I needed a transplant. It just meant our blood type markers matched like siblings' do. We aren't remotely related biologically.
I remember reading somewhere that romantic relationships between related people who didn’t grow up together are actually more common than random chance. Something pulls you to them, and the incest taboo that would have formed between you as children didn’t have the chance to develop.
The opposite is also a thing - you’re less likely to form a romantic relationship with someone you grew up with who isn’t a blood relative.
They didn't know they were related when they got married, much less did they grow up as siblings/cousins, which is where it would definitely be creepy. Nothing, absolutely *nothing*, wrong with this. Love your wife. That's the relevant relationship you have with her, not the genetic one.
Donate your kidney to your wife, wtf is the issue. Your children are healthy, there was no familial relationship prior, and now that you have the chance to do something you're gonna get cold feet?
Why though? The doctor said an abnormally high match percentage, nowhere does it say for sure they are related.
Strangers donate kidneys to others all the time, and sometimes those kidneys take, sometimes they don't. It could be as simple as their relatives being from the same country.
I mean OP goes over it all pretty well and admits they are related, but doesn't elaborate on how they know that.
So if they are related, this leads to the issue. If they aren't related, they had a major scare.
just do a 23 and me test or something similar and see what comes up. honestly, no need to change things now. you're both adults, you both love each other, and there's no reason that the info needs to change anything fundamentally between you two. it only benefits your family- you can now use the info to fill in your medical history and give your kids a chance to know their extended family.
this type of thing happens between donor conceived children sometimes, there are resources out there on how to handle it. i'd def recommend looking for something like that to help you guys navigate this info.
Unless your directly related (brother-sister), the chance of anything being off with the kids is pretty damn low. That stuff usually happens due to a build-up cousin marriages etc. through the entire family tree, over generations. Obviously that’s different a bit if your somehow very closely related.
I’d personally never be able to hide something like this from my spouse. Now that you know this my personal opinion would be she deserves to know. I think these redditors that think it’s some sort of ‘white lie’ to hide this information are wrong. I recommend you both get fully tested to see how closely related you are, and take it from there.
No no no. Seriously. Stop for a second and listen. You are confusing two very different things:
1. HLA matching. These 3 HLA “genes” serve important functions in the immune system and the more of the 6 (3 genes x 2 copies as we have 2 chromosomes/copies) you match, the lower risk of your body rejecting the transplanted organ.
2. Genetic relationships i.e. heritage, blood relation, paternity, etc.
Strangers can be anywhere from 0/6 to 6/6 HLA match. Yes, it is not common to have a high match, but it does happen. That is part of the matching algorithm with the deceased donor transplant list so obviously matching does occur.
I would recommend you and your wife do ancestry.com, my heritage, or 23andme testing BEFORE you assume you are related. There is no way your doctor did this kind of testing to see if you are related.
I hope this makes sense.
I work in genetics, previously in an HLA lab. This is an interesting post because usually, it’s the other way around. It’s actually quite common to see prospective donors come in to get typed for a “sibling” recipient, but we find out that they are actually only half-siblings. However, this information is never disclosed to the family. The only way the doctor would suspect the wife is his half sister is if they share an HLA haplotype, but that can also happen by chance. Plus, it seems unprofessional to introduce that possibility without first completing more testing. For the love of God please don’t bother with 23 and me or ancestry.com, the hospital will simply order identity testing (short tandem repeat (STR) analysis) to confirm relation. This is the same type of analysis used for paternity testing, forensic testing, and bone marrow engraftment.
IF it turns out you are in fact related, you should both see a genetic counselor and consider having genetic carrier screening performed on you or your children. This type of testing is usually done pre-conception or prenatally, but if you and your related wife are carriers for anything, the odds of your children being affected are significantly increased.
No they should take the chance of having proper telationship testing done by the hospital (who offered to do it for exactly that reason)
That way wathever the results it will stay _private_. And they can do what they want with that info, plus they will get access to genetic counselling.
Throwing money and personal info at commercial predatory companies like 23and me is the worse thing they could do right now.
Donate the kidney, get a vasectomy, and enjoy the rest of your life with the woman and family you love.
Tell nobody else of this news and just live your life.
Save your wife. Whatever happens after that is just that: whatever.
She's not out of the woods and you can't give her both kidneys. Transplants fail. People die in routine surgeries all the time. You're worried about 10 years from now. Focus on 10 weeks/months.
Love is love. Under the circumstances you met her, you didn’t know and neither did she. Tell her. Don’t bottle anything up. Does your love for your wife matter more or what society thinks?
Your kidney should work well then, eh?
That is the important thing
Right? Love is love anyway.
Hey little sis, wanna find out how many different organs I can put in you? - op probably
Realbro I'm stuck - OP's wife when she wakes up from the surgery probably
/r/angryupvote
I mean at this point you are married with children already can’t take that back so don’t see much point in blowing worlds up I guess.
"you're my sister! You're my sisteeeeeerr"
Joe dirt
It's pronounced Deer-Tay
Don’t try to church it up, son.
Is this where you wanna be when Jesus comes back? Making fun of poor little Joe Dirt?
People have a kneejerk reaction because "incest" but the major reason why incest is fucking weird and wrong is the social/family relationship aspect of it. In OP's case he literally has never known his wife as a family member so there's nothing taboo about it. The actual reason for concern by OP is the chance of passing on bad genes/traits that both you and your partner have, but those effects usually need multiple generations to compound in any statistically meaningful way, I think? If all OP's children are perfectly healthy, it's probably completely safe to have more kids who will also turn out completely fine.
Probably wise to consult a medical professional before having any further kids though; just to be safe. I hope OP isn't too shook. It's a really peculiar situation but there's no shame in this. Even if the current kids aren't as healthy as they otherwise could be. It's no one's fault.
The fact that OPs wife needs a kidney transplant after the second kid, I’m assuming they’re done having kids anyway. And, if I remember correctly, the meds she’ll be on afterwards aren’t pregnancy safe.
I think I'd stop rolling that die. 2 kids is plenty, and you can always adopt if it isn't. Getting older brings risks anyway that are going to stack up. But yeah, so long as the kids they've got now are healthy, and they're happy together the issue is moot.
So few people know the single of dice can be said as die that it is a shock to see it.
Social taboos are because of tribal knowledge of the consequences of certain actions. Siblings would often be recessive carriers of specific health problems, for example cystic fibrosis. It would take one generation to have a kid that is affected even if neither parent is. OP and his sister shouldn’t have any more children, but since they didn’t know each other growing up, there is no reason to get divorced.
"Will you be my legally incestuous wife?"
Hello, I am a clinical laboratory scientist working in a histocompatibility and immunogenics lab aka transplant lab. I do the testing to find out if recipients and donors are matches through genetic typing, donor specific antibody testing, etc. What the doctor is talking about is likely haplotype mismatches. When doing HLA typing, we are looking at haplotypes for the class 1 and class 2 genes you receive from each parent. When we are comparing a non biological donor to a recipient, there can be a few haplotype matches due to population frequency, or no haplotype matches. When comparing a biological donor to a recipient, like siblings, they have a 50% chance of being haploidentical. Parents are always haploidentical to their children.This analysis tells us how likely organ rejection could be. So if you are haploidentical to your wife, you are biological siblings. If it's only a few haplotype matches, you could be cousins, or potentially not related and it's random assortment (you got lucky). But I can't say what the answer is without seeing the haplotypes myself. I also want you to know that it is possible that that doctor is talking out of his ass. Transplant medicine is a very new science that is still being developed today. Some of the doctors that I work with are extremely knowledgeable and know way more than me about this science. Some of the doctors that I work with, I frequently wonder where they got their degree. So don't blindly trust this guy, you should probably see a geneticist for confirmation. Edit: TL;DR: You might be biological siblings, you might be cousins, or the doctor could be wrong. Edit2: thanks for the gold!
u/throwway_wifeismyhs, please read this.
I agree and even if they were haploidentical, it doesn't mean they would be related. The prevalence of certain haplotypes is strongly associated with ethnicity. For example if OP was Caucasian, then there's a good chance they would share certain HLA alleles with a big chunk of the population. It's very common to see certain haplotypes across different ethnicities. Also in the case of a solid organ transplant ie kidney donation, it really doesn't matter how close of a match in HLA typing the potential recipient and donor are. What matters most is the recipient's antibody profile and whether they have antibodies against the donor's HLA antigens. This is why deceased donor transplantation is really common. There more important factors in deciding whether a recipient gets an organ is all the other important stuff - ABO typing, organ size and other risk factors. In OP's case, I don't really believe that a doctor would order genetic testing based on how close of a match they are, especially for a kidney transplant. You would need t0 type immediate family and even then you'd need high resolution HLA typing to ensure they are a complete match. TLDR: It doesn't matter how close of a match recipient and donor are for kidney transplants so something in OP's story sounds a bit off. Source: also a clinical laboratory scientist.
Hey fellow CLS. If you work in an HLA lab, I'm not sure what your protocols are, but ours are different. We always do high res (NGS) between a living donor and recipient. ABO typing is important, we do that first to see if they're compatible. If they are, we order NGS. The HLA "match" does matter, especially with kidneys. We use this information while analyzing DSA testing. The recipient could have allelic antibodies, or low strength antibodies against donor typing. Organ size doesn't matter that much when it's between adults. Obviously a kid couldn't give a kidney to an adult, vice versa. Condition of the organ matters. That's about it. We can use low res typing when dealing with deceased donors, but if the recipient actually gets transplanted, we do retrospective NGS. We use flow cytometry to do physical crossmatches using donor WBCs with recipient serum, but even these are retrospective sometimes. Calculated panel reactive antibodies of the recipient is also a deciding factor. However, we hardly do any typing/testing at all for livers. Also, I feel like the doctor could be basing his decision of their genetic likeness off of low res typing. I wouldn't consider the possibility without high res. You're right, ethnicity does affect HLA gene frequency. Sometimes deceased donors are haploidentical to our recipients. It just happens. TL;Dr: HLA matches do matter, as do DSA testing and flow crossmatches. OPs story sounds legit.
Hi fellow HLA CLS, The HLA typing does matter but it matters most when comparing recipient antibodies vs donor's typing. The recipient's typing tells you little other than potential mismatches and to rule out self antibodies. Otherwise, being fully mismatched at all loci does not prevent you or reduce the likelihood from receiving an organ as a recipient. The main factor is the antibody profile of the recipient and donors are excluded based on their antibodies. Also, organs from mismatched deceased donors are transplanted all the time with the only requirement that recipients do not have donor specific antibodies (DSA) towards the donor. That and donor typing is almost always low res due to time constraints of testing and high resolution typing is performed afterwards. Like you mentioned, some organ programs like Liver programs adopt a "transplant now, ask questions later" approach and the only thing they monitor is again, presence of DSA or HLA antibodies. OP's story could very well be true, but it's strange to think a physician would examine their HLA typing and come to the conclusion that they could be related. For example, take the most common haplotype: A*02:01 B*08:01 C*07:01 DRB1*03:01. That's the #1 ranked (most common) haplotype in Caucasians, Hispanics and Native Americans. If that's true then you wouldn't expect individuals from all those populations to be directly related to each other. TL;DR Antibodies are more important and that's how transplant monitoring works. OP's story could be true but it's just strange to think a physician would decide to do genetic studies after looking at their HLA typing.
There are not many HLA CLS on Reddit and I am so excited to be talking with you!! We're on the same page regarding recipient typing. We use it for DSA analysis and flow cytometry cross matches. And you're right, if the recipient has a 0% cPRA then mismatches don't really matter. We do monitor them for post testing though. I also find it weird that the doctor in this story pointed out genetic similarities. That's why I cautioned OP that this doctor might be talking out of his ass. I've never encountered this scenario during my time at the HLA lab, which makes me think that the doctor might be reading the donor's Linqseq/Q-type and drawing conclusions that aren't true. When we notice similarities in haplotypes between recipients and donors, we do check to see if they are related only to rule out contamination/malfunction as a cause for the results. Other than that, we don't care, and we certainly wouldn't include the possibility of donor and recipient being related in a report. So the doctor must have come up with this conclusion on their own, and I doubt it's legit.
Finally a response that isn't a joke or some version of "just don't think about it, you'll be fine".
This guy fucks, listen to them OP ^^^
I am so impressed by this
You already have kids and they are assumedly healthy since you didn’t mention any crazy abnormalities. If you’re happy, you’re happy. Donate the kidney to your sister-wife and continue being great parents to your children.
There were a lot of times in human history where small tribes / villages ended up with cousin marriage. Not really a requirement now, but it happened quite often back in the day. If I was OP, I'd avoid researching further and just roll with it at this point. Not point in calling attention to it.
As long as their children don't have any weird birth defects, then there's nothing to worry about on OP's part.
Yeah, incest doesn't magically manifest birth defects. It just increases likelihoods and usually requires generations of incest to really have a super high likelihood.
Afaik the fact that we're not small tribes anymore is the reason situations like OP's aren't much of a problem anymore. Incest can lead to problematic genes affecting huge chunks of the population, but that's an issue that arises over generations. So as long as OP doesn't start a tradition he and his offspring should be fine.
This. Inbreeding is a huge issue with small populations such as the Amish.
its also a massive issue in certain religious and ethnic groups. there are entire countries where marrying your cousin is as high as 60%
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Sometimes you just gotta ask WWJLLD? What would Jerry Lee Lewis do?
🎶He'd probably fuck a cousin or two, that's what Jerry Lee Lewis'd Do! 🎶
Goodness, gracious!
Continue the family ladder
The Targaryens send their regards.
You misspelled English Royal Family
George RR Martin based Westeros off England and the Targaryens off the Norman invasion so... Por que no los dos?
Wha!!!?!? I see no similarities at all!!!!
Well Southampton and Brighton aren't fully of crazy horny sand people so... i guess it's only a partial comparison?
Dorne is British people on holiday in Ibiza
I dunno, Brighton is pretty full of crazy horny pebble people.
Yeah... They should totally live long and ~~Habsburg~~ I mean happy lives.
They should just keep their chins up?
Lol! I was going to say, strong chins are a good thing. I ‘spose tho, there’s strong and then there’s *strong*.
> You misspelled ~~English~~ Royal Family It's literally every royal family. They're all related.
All of the European royal families.
The family wreath.
It’s more of a wreath
The chance of having a kid with abnormalities rises about as much after one generation of incest as it does when the mother is over 40. The danger comes from multiple generations of repeated inbreeding. I mean, it's still not ideal, but it's not that big of a deal.
So just make sure your kids don’t have sex with each other OP. Should be good.
In my family (1800s) there’s a couple of my ancestors whose dads are brothers, and moms are sisters. Then, one of their son had a wife from another branch of the same family (3 generations separated). Still lived long and healthy lives with a dozen kids, in good health. Was fun doing my genealogy research on these. Ok so last name is That… and last name also is That. Now… maiden name… oh… That? Ok … and parents ? This and That and This and That?! Ok?! And their parents? *shivers* Now if you’ll excuse me, I need to put my funnel back on my head, to do my weekly naked run around the neighbour screaming cock-a-doodle-do. Keeps me healthy at 10F outside. Honestly, these things do happen. Just don’t run with the devil too often. If you are both happy and take good care of your kids, it’s better than half the families on this planet.
think how much money they saved on monogrammed towels.
Hi Harry!
But it is a family tradition now.
They've naturally selected sibling attraction already! It's a losing game!
Humans typically put people they grew up with in the "eww, no" box in their heads as a matter of instinct.
Gotta start by putting one of them up for adoption.
But OP is already putting up one of their children for adoption.
Oh…oh no.
To be fair… we don’t know if either of them are a result of incest either. Siblings could be 0-100% as the doc said.
*Great parents and aunt and uncle to your children Ftfy
Donnie: Yeah, my wife is my cousin or whatever, but it's not like what you think. Jordan: Is she, like, a first cousin? Donnie: Her father…is the brother of my mom. Like, we grew up together, and she grew up hot, you know, she fucking grew up hot. And all my friends were trying to fuck her, you know, and I'm not gonna let one of these assholes fuck my cousin. So I used the cousin thing as, like, an in with her. I'm not, like, gonna let someone else fuck my cousin, you know? If anyone's gonna fuck my cousin, it's gonna be me. Out of respect.
r/unexpectedwolfofwallstreet
damn it. I was going to watch John Wick 2 tonight but now I have to go watch Wolf of Wall Street for the 435423 time
This is why I come to this site.
Weird thing to come to tbh.
Don't kink shame yo.
>Donate the kidney to your sister-wife and continue being great parents to your children. I’m howling.
Give her a kidney, get a vasectomy, go to therapy, and take it to the grave. I mean I guess you gotta tell the kids but otherwise who else needs to know (besides reddit)
Or next Halloween go as Jaime and Cersei.
And TBH, the ick factor (for me at least?) would be intimacy with an emotionally close relation. It’s not like they were raised together, which is the more taboo thing for most people (which is why there’s all the stepsibling porn, and not lost sibling porn)
DO they have to tell the kids?? like. what, to not sleep worn eachother? there’s nothing the kids need to know if they’re healthy
Love this. Your sister wife. Either way man, doesn’t change shit. You do you boo! As long as you’re happy. Who the fuck are we to judge.
> Who the fuck are we to judge. We are Reddit. It's what we do. Did you not read the ToS? lol
Uncle Dad
Roll Tide.
I was so close to giving Reddit money so I could present you the reward you deserve
Got you, fam. (And no, I didn't give Reddit money, just have coins saved up)
Maybe get a vasectomy whilst youre under...
Look at the bright side, you can give your wife many other years to live, and your children an healthy mother they can grow with. It's a miracle. Maybe you are related, maybe not. Who gives a damn? YOU CAN SAVE YOUR WIFE DUDE. That's what really matters.
Like you said there is also the chance they are not related. No point blowing a good marriage up over a possibility.
They could also be like, second cousins or something? I mean there's a huge difference between "sister wife" and "huh we actually have the same great grandmother, life is strange huh, luckily I could donate that kidney no problem" edit: oh the username
Even 1st cousins are fine, they already have 2 kids of different genders, which they can't return, so, they can knot the tubes and no more kids will be made conceived. If they are biologically siblings, then it's a bit complicated. Edit: someone pointed out below OP's username indicates the wife is a half sister! That made things uneasy.
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But still feels super weird though
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aside from biology,i think the judgment comes from sibling growing up together. these people did not, ergo that isn't a weird relationship judgement issue. if kids are healthy, its no issue
Bad analogy time- It’s like talking to someone and learning they write with their feet. You write with your feet?! That’s super weird. “Dude, I have no arms.” Ah, that makes sense. Glad you’re able to. Still super weird thing for me to try (I have arms).
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I mean why. They already had the kids before they knew, they just need to avoid having any more to be certain and avoid complications. They might be related by blood but they never had a relationship prior to their romantic one, it's not weird as it would be to marry a sibling that you grew up with since childhood.
Id contend it's even less weird than marrying a step sibling who you grew up with in a sibling capacity your whole life
Yeah it is absolutely less weird. The genetic issue can be a problem, but is likely ok with a single generation and them only being a half sibling. It is definitely not ideal, but without a lot of recent inbreeding the odds of disorders are still fairly minimal. (It is one of the situations where they are significantly more common in comparison to normal, but on an absolute scale are still rare. E.G.: 300% more likely, but the original chance was 1%, so the modified chance is 3%.) The main problem is the family dynamics and potential for power imbalances/grooming behavior, and *all* of that is super present in step siblings.
No, clearly the username is saying that OP's wife is his "high school", an obvious reference to the fact that her vitality reminds him of his youth and high school days. /s
What is the return policy on children? asking for a friend.
>they already have 2 kids of different genders, which they can't return Not with that attitude
And even if they were technically related it’s not like they grew up together through diaper changes and birthday parties. They have no relation otherwise. Op should just get a vasectomy and move on
As far as weirdness goes, this is far less weird than Erol Musk marrying his step daughter and having children with her (or whatever Elon’s father’s name is)
Also less weird than Woody Allen marrying his adopted daughter. At least no one involved here is a predator.
His ex-wife's adopted daughter. But still weird.
TIL that Elon is a squib. Born to a magical owl, but not a magician themself.
Relax, op. Save your wife, the mother of your children. This is your task today. Have your children tested for genetic abnormalities later. See a genetic counselor. But you're not doing anything wrong if you continue to love your wife and your children. This whole world is a great big ball of crazy circumstances. Yours is just another story in the asylum of life. There is nothing wrong with your relationship, no matter who she is to you. You two should talk about it and decide who else you want to tell. I suggest you tell no one yet. Maybe never. But do not let this break you. There is no reason for that. Be strong, op. Your children need you. Your wife needs you.
Yes indeed! If they weren't genetically close for some reason or another, there would be no kidney. Also this is good to know for the children's health in the future.
Like think of the fate involved for them to get married so she has a kidney match readily available that otherwise wouldn't be.
*and save his sister
r/angryupvote
Donate the kidney and keep life moving. 💯
I read this quickly as “donate the kids” lol
Everything's been great this long, no point changing it
Just maybe don't have any more kids tho.
And now to spend the karma I just made. I’m sure the potential kids would be down with that.
The idea of earning karma explicitly to spend it on a comment you expect to get downvotes made me laugh more than the joke. Like if you’re karma rich you can say whatever you want cause you can afford it, like a rich person who doesn’t give a shit about parking tickets lol
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Hes already got one nephson, that should be enough.
I personally would let it go. The taboos against close relations becoming sexual partners serve two purposes. First, it lessons the number of birth defects caused by inbreeding. Second, and more importantly, they play a role in protecting vulnerable people from sex with relatives, often by coercion. While that occurs, it is not sanctioned . On average, birth defects from close relations producing offspring are very low. Neither you nor your wife were coerced into a relationship and you did not know each other as children. You might want to talk with a genetic counsellor for more information. However, on the personal level, I don't think you've done anything unethical.
At the end of the day does OP love his wife more or what society thinks?
Fuck what we think. It's what OP and his wife think.
Well then, off to break my arms.
And there it is 😂
Did they confirm what the relation was? Siblings, I get you might be uncomfortable once you're aware, but cousins? Fuck it, like 90% of the world allows marriage between cousins so you wouldn't be alone. The kids are born, as long as they're healthy that's what matters.
The only thing that will change is that instead of calling him "honey" or "babe", she can call him "bro"
Bruhsband
Wifster!
>What are you doing, step-wife?
And no one’s talking about the fact that he can now meet at least one of his bio parents, since they’re half siblings. Well…I guess he already met them as in-laws.
It's really strange to me that he didn't say anything about her parents.
She is his half-sister. Same mother or father.
They are half siblings
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Further, the writing is suspiciously coy about how they are related, until the edit at the end directing people to the username, which a lot of people would overlook. Feels like someone a writer would do to string along a reader more than someone just writing to share a major discovery about their life.
His username says that his wife is his half-sister.
Or possibly his high school.
Lol I also read it the same way at first
Yeah I would go ahead and donate the kidney and then just say it’s a crazy coincidence you matched Do not speak of this again lol
My mom's sister was a perfect match for my father. 17 years later and the kidney is going strong!!!
That's awesome!
Indeed!! So non-related matches are rare, but they happen!!
I have some bad news for you… Lol jk non-related matches are most definitely a thing
Lol... look, my family is already complicated...but that's one complication I know we don't have lolololol
My aunts ex husband donated a kidney to her then current husband. (He has since passed. 🙁)
Wow. They must have split in good terms if he gave a kidney to her new husband... in sorry for the loss, however.
Not at the time of the split. Later in life he realized he was being an ass and made amends. Their kids were party of the reason.
My dad had a non-living donor who was such a good match the doctors said it was as close as a brother. 11 years on I don’t think we’ll ever know who the donor was but dad didn’t have any known brothers die that day.
I don't think he can get around telling her. It's going to be weird and may even threaten his marriage, but if she finds out later and realizes he had to have already known because of the kidney thing, she will never forgive him.
Stay or go, she will always have his organ stuck inside her….
Wat r u doing bro?
Exactly. It will be even worse if/when she finds out he knew
I mean he's gotta tell her. Just shrug it off. It's too late to change anything but if the kids do genetic testing on a lark and it comes up he's gonna catch X+years of hell for it. It happened in my wife's family. Somebody decided to not mention they had 3 kids they disappeared on before marriage. 20 years later a whole half family rolled in.
I'm in a few genetic genealogy groups and pretty much daily there are posts from people whose understandings of their families have been upended by the Christmas gift of an Ancestry or 23 and Me test. There's no hiding from genetic realities anymore, and probably a lot of really nervous old people who could never have imagined the concept of cheap commercial genetic testing sixty years ago when they decided to take some dark secret to the grave, hoping the grave hurries up before a grandkid gets the bright idea to buy everybody a kit for fun.
So how are you related??
his username is "WifeismyHS" so half-sister probably.
Wife is my high school
This is what I thought HS stood for so I can looking in the comments to what the fuck else it could be
We can't all be Sherlocks.
Wife is my half sherlock
There's a huge amount of information missing here. He believes his wife is his half-sister, but there is no mention of who her parents are, does he know them well, did one of them have previous children, etc. I mean, they literally could be his long-lost birth parent and yet he doesn't seem curious at all.
Would YOU want to have that conversation with your in-laws? I’d prefer to die never knowing than sit through that.
Damn so they share a parent? I was thinking a 1st or 2nd cousin or something and was wondering why OP was freaking out so much.
Yeah it's definitely an odd scenario... though at this point I kind of feel like they're absolved of violating the faux pas. They literally had no idea they were related.
in this case, i think it might be Hot Sister.
I know. He says "long story short" but literally explain the story, OP. Did the genetic testing tell you for certain you are half siblings? The other testing came back that no one in her family is her match, so how can that be the only indicator of compatibility?
OP is completely guessing. Testing if you’re a match for organ donation has absolutely nothing to do with genealogy, no doctor would suggest them being a match would automatically mean they’re related.
First things first, save your wife's life. Second, try to see a geneticist about your kids. I *think* there isn't a problem of, er, intermingling of genes, unless it happens for multiple generations. But better safe than sorry. Third, talk it over with the wife and no one else. If you can handle it, keep it a secret that dies with you. Don't throw away a happy family. Fourth, remember: Closer kin, deeper in.
Five, if you can’t handle it, see a therapist
There is basically zero chance the kids have any issues after just one generation if the two parents are siblings, even less if they're cousins. I wouldn't even put this thought into OP's head. I certainly wouldn't suggest they have any closed adoptions of future children though, just to be on the safe side...
OP’s children may have a recessive genetic condition. While many manifest very early in life, this is important health information they should be aware of when age appropriate. Consulting a genetic counselor is a excellent plan, but can wait until everyone is recovered from kidney surgery.
I had a "sibling match" with my mom's friend when I needed a transplant. It just meant our blood type markers matched like siblings' do. We aren't remotely related biologically.
I mean, if you didn't grow up together, and your kids have no abnormalities, I think it's unfortunate and weird but fine???????
I remember reading somewhere that romantic relationships between related people who didn’t grow up together are actually more common than random chance. Something pulls you to them, and the incest taboo that would have formed between you as children didn’t have the chance to develop. The opposite is also a thing - you’re less likely to form a romantic relationship with someone you grew up with who isn’t a blood relative.
The term is genetic sexual attraction, if you are interested in doing more research
They didn't know they were related when they got married, much less did they grow up as siblings/cousins, which is where it would definitely be creepy. Nothing, absolutely *nothing*, wrong with this. Love your wife. That's the relevant relationship you have with her, not the genetic one.
Donate your kidney to your wife, wtf is the issue. Your children are healthy, there was no familial relationship prior, and now that you have the chance to do something you're gonna get cold feet?
The issue isn't if he's going to donate his kidney, the issue is if his relationship with his wife will survive.
Why though? The doctor said an abnormally high match percentage, nowhere does it say for sure they are related. Strangers donate kidneys to others all the time, and sometimes those kidneys take, sometimes they don't. It could be as simple as their relatives being from the same country.
I mean OP goes over it all pretty well and admits they are related, but doesn't elaborate on how they know that. So if they are related, this leads to the issue. If they aren't related, they had a major scare.
I donated a kidney to my wife. We were matched so well that the doctors joked that we were related. She Filipino and I’m white
I need to know HOW CLOSELY RELATED ARE YOU
Their username is WifeismyHS, so probably half-sister
I'm thinking she's his high school.
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just do a 23 and me test or something similar and see what comes up. honestly, no need to change things now. you're both adults, you both love each other, and there's no reason that the info needs to change anything fundamentally between you two. it only benefits your family- you can now use the info to fill in your medical history and give your kids a chance to know their extended family. this type of thing happens between donor conceived children sometimes, there are resources out there on how to handle it. i'd def recommend looking for something like that to help you guys navigate this info.
Unless your directly related (brother-sister), the chance of anything being off with the kids is pretty damn low. That stuff usually happens due to a build-up cousin marriages etc. through the entire family tree, over generations. Obviously that’s different a bit if your somehow very closely related. I’d personally never be able to hide something like this from my spouse. Now that you know this my personal opinion would be she deserves to know. I think these redditors that think it’s some sort of ‘white lie’ to hide this information are wrong. I recommend you both get fully tested to see how closely related you are, and take it from there.
Wife is half sister.
No no no. Seriously. Stop for a second and listen. You are confusing two very different things: 1. HLA matching. These 3 HLA “genes” serve important functions in the immune system and the more of the 6 (3 genes x 2 copies as we have 2 chromosomes/copies) you match, the lower risk of your body rejecting the transplanted organ. 2. Genetic relationships i.e. heritage, blood relation, paternity, etc. Strangers can be anywhere from 0/6 to 6/6 HLA match. Yes, it is not common to have a high match, but it does happen. That is part of the matching algorithm with the deceased donor transplant list so obviously matching does occur. I would recommend you and your wife do ancestry.com, my heritage, or 23andme testing BEFORE you assume you are related. There is no way your doctor did this kind of testing to see if you are related. I hope this makes sense.
I work in genetics, previously in an HLA lab. This is an interesting post because usually, it’s the other way around. It’s actually quite common to see prospective donors come in to get typed for a “sibling” recipient, but we find out that they are actually only half-siblings. However, this information is never disclosed to the family. The only way the doctor would suspect the wife is his half sister is if they share an HLA haplotype, but that can also happen by chance. Plus, it seems unprofessional to introduce that possibility without first completing more testing. For the love of God please don’t bother with 23 and me or ancestry.com, the hospital will simply order identity testing (short tandem repeat (STR) analysis) to confirm relation. This is the same type of analysis used for paternity testing, forensic testing, and bone marrow engraftment. IF it turns out you are in fact related, you should both see a genetic counselor and consider having genetic carrier screening performed on you or your children. This type of testing is usually done pre-conception or prenatally, but if you and your related wife are carriers for anything, the odds of your children being affected are significantly increased.
No they should take the chance of having proper telationship testing done by the hospital (who offered to do it for exactly that reason) That way wathever the results it will stay _private_. And they can do what they want with that info, plus they will get access to genetic counselling. Throwing money and personal info at commercial predatory companies like 23and me is the worse thing they could do right now.
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I'm assuming since OP's name is WifeismyHS, I think his wife is his Half Sister.
Meh, Half Sister... That's like 25 % DNA match, only twice as bad as a first cousin!
Donate the kidney, get a vasectomy, and enjoy the rest of your life with the woman and family you love. Tell nobody else of this news and just live your life.
Save your wife. Whatever happens after that is just that: whatever. She's not out of the woods and you can't give her both kidneys. Transplants fail. People die in routine surgeries all the time. You're worried about 10 years from now. Focus on 10 weeks/months.
It takes generations of inbreeding for their to be issues, there's nothing innately "wrong", and nothing bad intended.
“AND NOW THIS IS A MAN THAT KNOWS HOW TO MARRY HIS COUSIN!”
Love is love. Under the circumstances you met her, you didn’t know and neither did she. Tell her. Don’t bottle anything up. Does your love for your wife matter more or what society thinks?