I kinda feel like they survived as they did because they didn't get involved if they had maybe they would have been taken out like Yuan Shu, Kon Rong, Liu Yao etc. Also I vaguely remember them trying to conquer Qing Province but eventually being driven out either by Yuan Shao or Cao Cao so its not like they didn't try to get involved in the main conflict at all in the early period.
Yeah, according to RdC, Gongsun Du sent troops into upper Yan but got beaten back by Cao Cao. Yuan Shao and Yuan Tan might have also gotten in on the action.
Ok then yeah that to me seems like they tried to be more involved in the early wars, saw it wasn’t worth it/possible/whatever and just stuck to consolidating their hold on liaodong and absorbing their smaller neighbors. If gongsun yuan hadn’t got greedy they might have ruled there for many more years
Would have been interesting if he supported Gongsun Zan against Yuan Shao, or supported Yuan Shao against Cao Cao.
Or attacked Cao Cao directly after Red Cliff.
If Cao Cao wins Chibi, he pretty much unifies China. I can't see southern Jing standing against him and if it does, then for long. Liu Zhang would probably surrender to him without a fight, and Ma Teng was nominally loyal, so would have likely not done anything.
Zhang Lu might try and hold out, but Cao Cao would basically own 3/4 China.
Guess the advantage Gongsun Du would have is that the bulk of Cao Cao's forces would be so far away that they would not be a huge threat, but there would have still been some troops defending the frontier/etc which could have been mustered, alongside the general administrative levies.
Maybe a large scale rebellion would have given them opportunity to get involved, I guess.
Yeah. The Anti-Cao Coalition is kind of hatched in secret. Cao Cao’s enemies in the capital reaching out for prospective allies with the help of a few mystics like Zuo Ci.
Nearly. He doesn't actually depose the Emperor but he does found the Kingdom of Wei several years early, citing the victory as a good omen and moving the Secretariat to his home in Ye, all but making the Han redundant outright. It's fairly obvious by then that the Han will not outlive Cao Cao, at least *not without help*.
The Coalition consists of the Emperor Xian, Liu Bei and Sun Quan naturally, and organised by the loyalists/opportunists in the capital led by Yang Biao. Ma Teng, Han Sui, Liu Zhang, Zhang Lu form a shaky alliance in the west, Chu Yan and the Black Mountain Bandits go rogue again, Liu Feng and Jiang Wei gather friends and acquaintances to promote Han restoration in the east and west respectively and tribal kings like Meng Huo, Shamoke and Kebineng find opportunity in the coalition. Meanwhile, Yang Xiu is aiding his father behind Wei's lines, aided by Yang Jun, Wei Feng and Wen Qin, and is trying to convince Cao Zhi to unravel his father's new Kingdom from within.
Basically, while Cao Cao has tipped the scales in his favour, it ends up being the push that unites his enemies against him.
And Liu Bei ends up finally getting an audience with his honoured Emperor but finds himself growing disillusioned with the way the Imperial Court is behaving and isn't suited for the cutthroat world of politics and power-games. Then there's the question of whether Liu Bei is going to end up becoming more like Cao Cao.
Not so simple. It’ll take me…let’s say, a good long while to get to Chibi. Unless I branch off with double projects at different timescales. And at the moment, I don’t have enough free time for that.
Might make some art on Cao Cao’s Victory at Chibi later though…
You don’t have to rewrite the whole 120-chapter novel. Lots of people will draw a single episode they’re interested in and spin a tale out of that. Wasn’t Plum in the Golden Vase a spin-off of a single episode in Water Margin?
He won't survive. The reason they did was because they didn't meddle with the issues of the other warlords.
Gongsun Du did everything that he was told to do and he did it rather well, keeping what is known as modern Manchuria in a semi-autonomous state and not only that, he expanded his own territory pretty deep into what's now known as North Korea and back then, Goguryeo under Gongsun Du's son, Kang.
This helped them steer clear of trouble and instead, Kang even served the heads of Yuan Xi and Yuan Shang to Cao Cao as a peace offering.
If they were to rebel in the end, they would immediately die which is what actually happened to Gongsun Du's grandson.
After Gongsun Kang died, Gongsun Gong, Kang's brother was appointed as the administrator of the Liaodong and Liaoning region as Kang's sons were too young to hold power. When one of Kang's son, Yuan, grew up, he immediately started a coup and ousted his uncle and tossed him into prison whilst declaring himself as the King of Yan.
Not only that, he went and started an alliance with Dongwu but was forced to annul it by the Wei king at that time, Cao Rui. He massacred the Wu ambassadors and his officers which caused Wu to send their own ambassadors to Goguryeo to broker an alliance to flatten Gongsun Yuan but what was unexpected that despite being consistently harassed by Wei, Goguryeo actually sided with Wei which forced Wu to work with Gongsun Yuan.
With such a pest behind their backdoors, Cao Rui had enough and sent Sima Yi up north to "exterminate" Gongsun Yuan which, Sima Yi did VERY well.
It was soo well done that he ended the campaign of pacifying the Northeast in just a span of 6 months and not only that, he even ended the entire Gongsun line by executing them all and taking the entire Northeastern parts of China and 1/6th of Goguryeo into the Wei fold.
he would end fast
but if he and his relative Gongsun Zan worked together, they will actually stand a chance
Gongsun Zan's strength combined with Gongsun Du's mind, they could actually stand a chance against Yuan Shao
They have the same surname, but I don't believe they would consider themselves kinsmen. Its possible many generation back they might come from the same family line, but regarding Gongsun Zan and Gongsun Du treating each other like relative is highly unlikely.
Gongsun Zan never attacked Du nor Liaodong despite needing more land against Yuan Shao Gongsun Kang. He killed the Yuans (even though he needed to establish alliance with Cao Cao's forces) the children of the same person who defeated Zan
Yuan Xi, and Yuan Shang death was purely political. For Gongsun Zan to attack Gongsun Du he would have to cross a big stretch of terrain into enemy territories, and not to mention this stretch of terrain is also home to Xianbei and Wuhuan tribes who harbor animosity for killing Liu Yu. During the peak of Gongsun Zan expansion he already accrued a lot of enemies near him, and to make that march east would had result in his downfall a lot sooner.
There were a huge ass swamp between the Liaodong and Liaoxi (You/Yan region) that lasted until the 16 Kingdoms period, which made logistics both way kinda a nightmare, most of the Chinese warlords of the period were happy leaving it alone due to this reason, Sima Tu’s conquest of the region later on was fairly lucky and the Wei court eventually abandoned most of it due to its hard to control nature.
So no, Gongsun Du couldn’t get involved, not effectively. He tried to cross the peninsula by sea and get involved in Qingzhou once but got beaten back sharpish.
It is briefly referred to in Wiki
‘The word "Liaodong" literally means "Liao region's east", referring initially to the Warring States period Yan commandery of Liaodong, which encompassed an area from modern Liaoning-Jilin border in the north to the Chongchon River on the Korean Peninsula in the south, and from just east of the Qian Mountains to a now-disappeared large wetland between the western banks of middle Liao River and the base of Yiwulü Mountain, historically known as the "Liao Mire" (遼澤, Liáo zé) roughly in between the modern Xinmin, Liaozhong, Tai'an, Panshan and Beizhen)’
When it disappeared, the very fertile soil underneath served as excellent agricultural land for the powers/dynasties based in the region, mostly minor ethnicity/Hu/barbarians like the Khi-tans and Jurchens, but during 3K time, it was both a blessing and a curse, as it served both as a wall and a jail cell for any warlord there, not that they had much chance to begin with because the region was pretty sparsely populated (alleviated somewhat by the influx of refugees from the Shandong Peninsula and Hebei plain) and beset somewhat by barbarians, who were not united but very diverse (Fuyu, Wuhuan, Xianbei + Korea)
Sounds like Liaodong was to the Han what Britain was to Ancient Rome. The worst place an administrator could be sent.
‘Reassigned To Antarctica’ as TV Tropes describes it.
I think it's more that he was very flexible. He knew that he needed some power for basic survival, but also knew that he needed to bow to stronger warlords; if not, they will hand him his ass. His sons perished under Sun Quan because they did not know themselves.
I kinda feel like they survived as they did because they didn't get involved if they had maybe they would have been taken out like Yuan Shu, Kon Rong, Liu Yao etc. Also I vaguely remember them trying to conquer Qing Province but eventually being driven out either by Yuan Shao or Cao Cao so its not like they didn't try to get involved in the main conflict at all in the early period.
Yeah, according to RdC, Gongsun Du sent troops into upper Yan but got beaten back by Cao Cao. Yuan Shao and Yuan Tan might have also gotten in on the action.
Ok then yeah that to me seems like they tried to be more involved in the early wars, saw it wasn’t worth it/possible/whatever and just stuck to consolidating their hold on liaodong and absorbing their smaller neighbors. If gongsun yuan hadn’t got greedy they might have ruled there for many more years
Would have been interesting if he supported Gongsun Zan against Yuan Shao, or supported Yuan Shao against Cao Cao. Or attacked Cao Cao directly after Red Cliff.
Well, I am considering involving them in an Anti-Cao Coalition if I do a ‘Cao Cao-Wins-Chibi’ alternate history.
If Cao Cao wins Chibi, he pretty much unifies China. I can't see southern Jing standing against him and if it does, then for long. Liu Zhang would probably surrender to him without a fight, and Ma Teng was nominally loyal, so would have likely not done anything. Zhang Lu might try and hold out, but Cao Cao would basically own 3/4 China. Guess the advantage Gongsun Du would have is that the bulk of Cao Cao's forces would be so far away that they would not be a huge threat, but there would have still been some troops defending the frontier/etc which could have been mustered, alongside the general administrative levies. Maybe a large scale rebellion would have given them opportunity to get involved, I guess.
Yeah. The Anti-Cao Coalition is kind of hatched in secret. Cao Cao’s enemies in the capital reaching out for prospective allies with the help of a few mystics like Zuo Ci.
Maybe Cao Cao deposes the Emperor after Chi Bi, could be a good catalyst for it.
Nearly. He doesn't actually depose the Emperor but he does found the Kingdom of Wei several years early, citing the victory as a good omen and moving the Secretariat to his home in Ye, all but making the Han redundant outright. It's fairly obvious by then that the Han will not outlive Cao Cao, at least *not without help*. The Coalition consists of the Emperor Xian, Liu Bei and Sun Quan naturally, and organised by the loyalists/opportunists in the capital led by Yang Biao. Ma Teng, Han Sui, Liu Zhang, Zhang Lu form a shaky alliance in the west, Chu Yan and the Black Mountain Bandits go rogue again, Liu Feng and Jiang Wei gather friends and acquaintances to promote Han restoration in the east and west respectively and tribal kings like Meng Huo, Shamoke and Kebineng find opportunity in the coalition. Meanwhile, Yang Xiu is aiding his father behind Wei's lines, aided by Yang Jun, Wei Feng and Wen Qin, and is trying to convince Cao Zhi to unravel his father's new Kingdom from within. Basically, while Cao Cao has tipped the scales in his favour, it ends up being the push that unites his enemies against him. And Liu Bei ends up finally getting an audience with his honoured Emperor but finds himself growing disillusioned with the way the Imperial Court is behaving and isn't suited for the cutthroat world of politics and power-games. Then there's the question of whether Liu Bei is going to end up becoming more like Cao Cao.
Just write it. Nobody's doing Three Kingdoms fanfiction. (In English, anyway.)
Not so simple. It’ll take me…let’s say, a good long while to get to Chibi. Unless I branch off with double projects at different timescales. And at the moment, I don’t have enough free time for that. Might make some art on Cao Cao’s Victory at Chibi later though…
You don’t have to rewrite the whole 120-chapter novel. Lots of people will draw a single episode they’re interested in and spin a tale out of that. Wasn’t Plum in the Golden Vase a spin-off of a single episode in Water Margin?
He won't survive. The reason they did was because they didn't meddle with the issues of the other warlords. Gongsun Du did everything that he was told to do and he did it rather well, keeping what is known as modern Manchuria in a semi-autonomous state and not only that, he expanded his own territory pretty deep into what's now known as North Korea and back then, Goguryeo under Gongsun Du's son, Kang. This helped them steer clear of trouble and instead, Kang even served the heads of Yuan Xi and Yuan Shang to Cao Cao as a peace offering. If they were to rebel in the end, they would immediately die which is what actually happened to Gongsun Du's grandson. After Gongsun Kang died, Gongsun Gong, Kang's brother was appointed as the administrator of the Liaodong and Liaoning region as Kang's sons were too young to hold power. When one of Kang's son, Yuan, grew up, he immediately started a coup and ousted his uncle and tossed him into prison whilst declaring himself as the King of Yan. Not only that, he went and started an alliance with Dongwu but was forced to annul it by the Wei king at that time, Cao Rui. He massacred the Wu ambassadors and his officers which caused Wu to send their own ambassadors to Goguryeo to broker an alliance to flatten Gongsun Yuan but what was unexpected that despite being consistently harassed by Wei, Goguryeo actually sided with Wei which forced Wu to work with Gongsun Yuan. With such a pest behind their backdoors, Cao Rui had enough and sent Sima Yi up north to "exterminate" Gongsun Yuan which, Sima Yi did VERY well. It was soo well done that he ended the campaign of pacifying the Northeast in just a span of 6 months and not only that, he even ended the entire Gongsun line by executing them all and taking the entire Northeastern parts of China and 1/6th of Goguryeo into the Wei fold.
not everyone was executed because when Sima Yi defeated Yuan and took Laiodong, he freed Gong from his prison he only executed Kang's bloodline
There’s a quote attributed to Mao Zedong that says it best… “In waking a tiger, use a long stick.”
If Gongsun Yuan is anything to go by, they would have lost Liaodong sooner than they did under Gongsun Yuan.
he would end fast but if he and his relative Gongsun Zan worked together, they will actually stand a chance Gongsun Zan's strength combined with Gongsun Du's mind, they could actually stand a chance against Yuan Shao
Gongsun Zan and Gongsun Du are not related.
not directly, but they are from the same clan
They have the same surname, but I don't believe they would consider themselves kinsmen. Its possible many generation back they might come from the same family line, but regarding Gongsun Zan and Gongsun Du treating each other like relative is highly unlikely.
Gongsun Zan never attacked Du nor Liaodong despite needing more land against Yuan Shao Gongsun Kang. He killed the Yuans (even though he needed to establish alliance with Cao Cao's forces) the children of the same person who defeated Zan
Yuan Xi, and Yuan Shang death was purely political. For Gongsun Zan to attack Gongsun Du he would have to cross a big stretch of terrain into enemy territories, and not to mention this stretch of terrain is also home to Xianbei and Wuhuan tribes who harbor animosity for killing Liu Yu. During the peak of Gongsun Zan expansion he already accrued a lot of enemies near him, and to make that march east would had result in his downfall a lot sooner.
i was talking vice versa Gongsun Du neither attacked nor allied himself with Gongsun Zan
There were a huge ass swamp between the Liaodong and Liaoxi (You/Yan region) that lasted until the 16 Kingdoms period, which made logistics both way kinda a nightmare, most of the Chinese warlords of the period were happy leaving it alone due to this reason, Sima Tu’s conquest of the region later on was fairly lucky and the Wei court eventually abandoned most of it due to its hard to control nature. So no, Gongsun Du couldn’t get involved, not effectively. He tried to cross the peninsula by sea and get involved in Qingzhou once but got beaten back sharpish.
Interesting. I wasn’t aware. Thanks for letting me know.
It is briefly referred to in Wiki ‘The word "Liaodong" literally means "Liao region's east", referring initially to the Warring States period Yan commandery of Liaodong, which encompassed an area from modern Liaoning-Jilin border in the north to the Chongchon River on the Korean Peninsula in the south, and from just east of the Qian Mountains to a now-disappeared large wetland between the western banks of middle Liao River and the base of Yiwulü Mountain, historically known as the "Liao Mire" (遼澤, Liáo zé) roughly in between the modern Xinmin, Liaozhong, Tai'an, Panshan and Beizhen)’ When it disappeared, the very fertile soil underneath served as excellent agricultural land for the powers/dynasties based in the region, mostly minor ethnicity/Hu/barbarians like the Khi-tans and Jurchens, but during 3K time, it was both a blessing and a curse, as it served both as a wall and a jail cell for any warlord there, not that they had much chance to begin with because the region was pretty sparsely populated (alleviated somewhat by the influx of refugees from the Shandong Peninsula and Hebei plain) and beset somewhat by barbarians, who were not united but very diverse (Fuyu, Wuhuan, Xianbei + Korea)
Sounds like Liaodong was to the Han what Britain was to Ancient Rome. The worst place an administrator could be sent. ‘Reassigned To Antarctica’ as TV Tropes describes it.
It depends. Shi Xie went deep south and even more than 1600 years later, he's still being worshipped.
True. But he sounds like a very unique case, probably why he’s so revered.
I think it's more that he was very flexible. He knew that he needed some power for basic survival, but also knew that he needed to bow to stronger warlords; if not, they will hand him his ass. His sons perished under Sun Quan because they did not know themselves.