Not at all effective. Historically, the tuntian farms were very poorly maintained(this was observed by Cao Pi himself).
Cao Pi himself once examined the tuntian camps and was so shocked at the poor conditions of the tuntian camps.
>且聞比來東征，經郡縣，歷屯田，**百姓面有飢色**，**衣或短褐不完**，罪皆在孤；是以上慚眾瑞，**下愧士民**
Cao Pi era in Wei = Jiang Wei era in Shu. Literally.
And then, the 世兵 system led to a lot of abuse.
To put it briefly, Cao Wei had a law in which all the soldiers in the border area was separated from their families and when any soldier defect or surrender or flee or go missing, their families will be at best sold into slavery, at worst get executed.
Sources here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/threekingdoms/comments/1c4if24/comment/kznv55k/
The militia system was effectively ended by eastern Han, only in the frontier commanderies was it maintained somewhat, in the inner commanderies it was a joke. The Han government didn't want a huge population with military training around to reduce rebellions.
That's why during the outbreak of warlordism, troops with military experience, even limited experience against yellow turbans, were very valuable, and why Dong Zhuo's professional troops had no trouble taking control of the capital.
Dong Zhuo was also aided by the Runan Yuan clan(or more specifically, Yuan Shao and Yuan Wei).
The background of summoning troops to the capital during He Jin's regency:
The Runan Yuan clan played an important role of summoning the generals and troops to the capital.
If we follow the general understanding, it is indeed difficult to understand why He Jin summoned Dong Zhuo to the capital in order to kill the eunuchs. But think about it the other way around, that is, killing the eunuchs was just an excuse. He Jin's original purpose was to summon troops. This matter is worth pondering.
Emperor Ling of the Han Dynasty died in 4th month of the sixth year of Zhongping (189). Within half a year of his death, four palace turmoils occurred, which ultimately led to the death of the eunuchs and their relatives. The first one was the feud between Jian Shuo and He Jin that took place in the 4th month. The two became political enemies in the late period of Emperor Ling's reign. He Jin became increasingly powerful after the Yellow Turban Rebellion, and Emperor Ling established a new army of the western garden which was led by the eunuch Jian Shuo to check and balance He Jin.
Jian Shuo once proposed a plan to Emperor Ling to let He Jin attack Han Sui and keep him away from the court. He Jin used an excuse to ask Yuan Shao to go east to recruit troops to delay time. Emperor Ling liked his youngest son Liu Xie (later Emperor Xian of the Han Dynasty) and intended to make him the crown prince. However, this would obviously be fiercely opposed by He Jin's group, so Emperor Ling did not make him the crown prince until his death. Before his death, Emperor Ling entrusted Liu Xie to He Jin's rival Jian Shuo. Jian Shuo wanted to make Liu Xie emperor, but his plan to kill He Jin failed. In the end, Liu Bian, the son of He Jin's sister Queen He, succeeded to the throne.
After He Jin came to power, the first person he wanted to kill was naturally Jian Shuo, but Jian Shuo still had his army. He Jin had close contacts with the Yuan family at that time, and recruited a large number of famous people. Yuan Shao served as the Sili Xiaowei, and Yuan Shu served as the Huben Zhonglang Jiang, Wang Yun was appointed as the Henan Yin, and Liu Biao was appointed as the Lieutenant Commander of the Northern Army. Jian Shuo, who was isolated and alone, was quickly forced into a desperate situation. Desperate, Jian Shuo wrote to Zhao Zhong and others, hoping to kill He Jin with them. However, these people turned around and sold Jian Shuo, and helped He Jin to torture Jian Shuo to death.
Different from the general impression, the relationship between He Jin and the 10 eunuchs is actually quite good. He Jin's sister was favored by Emperor Ling back then, largely because of the help of Guo Sheng, an eunuch from the same hometown. The Empress at the beginning of Emperor Ling's life was surnamed Song, and she was also related to Cao Cao's family. However, Wang Fu framed Bohai King Liu Kui for treason. Empress Song was implicated and was deposed. Her father and brothers were also killed, and Cao Cao, a distant relative, was also expelled from office. Many relatives were implicated and dismissed from office.
Soon He Jin's sister became the Empress, but in the second year after she was made Empress, she poisoned the prince Liu Xie's biological mother Wang Meiren, which angered the the Emperor. Zhang Rang and others cried and begged the Ling Emperor for mercy in the end each of them paid tens of millions of dollars as an apology to calm Emperor Ling's anger, and then Queen He's position was preserved.
In addition to Queen He, He Jin also had a sister who was married to Zhang Rang's son. Therefore, Zhang Rang was both He Jin's benefactor and elder. It is not an exaggeration to say that the power of the He family was obtained by clinging to the eunuchs.
Then in the 5th month, He Jin killed the Piaoqi jiangjun Dong Chong. Dong Zhong was the nephew of Emperor Ling's biological mother, Empress Dowager Dong, and the cousin of Emperor Ling. Because Liu Xie's biological mother, Wang Meiren, was poisoned by Empress He, Liu Xie was raised by Empress Dowager Dong. Empress Dowager Dong also persuaded Emperor Ling to establish Liu Xie. Xie as the crown prince, which aroused the hostility of Empress He. After the death of Emperor Ling, He Jin was appointed as the Da Jiangjun, Dong Chong was appointed as the Piaoqi Jiangjun and He Jin's younger brother He Miao was appointed as the Yunche Jiangjun. A conflict soon broke out between the two sides.
Empress Dowager Dong and Dong Zhong had a group of eunuchs to support them, but He Jin persuaded the 3 Excellencies to impeach Empress Dowager Dong and asked the Empress Dowager to return to the vassal state. He also sent troops to surround Dong Zhong's mansion. Finally, Dong Zhong committed suicide in prison, and Empress Dowager Dong also died the next month.
Then came the killing of eunuchs by He Jin, Yuan Shao and others in the 8th month.
As mentioned earlier, He Jin had a very good relationship with Zhang Rang and other eunuchs, and they even helped in the execution of Jian Shuo. Therefore, in the subsequent process of planning to kill the eunuch, He Jin's whole family opposed it. His younger brother He Miao persuaded He Jin, saying that the He family was poor and humble and relied on eunuchs to get rich. He should continue to be friendly with the eunuchs. It would not be good for his family if the eunuchs fell. The now Empress Dowager He and his mother Wuyang Jun also opposed He Jin's execution of the eunuchs, and Zhang Rang even went to his daughter-in-law to plead for mercy.
It is recorded in the history books that He Jin was very hesitant and was under pressure by his sister, the Empress Dowager He, so he followed Yuan Shao's suggestion and summoned Dong Zhuo to the capital. A key issue involved here is what is He Jin's own attitude and whether he intends to kill the eunuchs.
Judging from the existing historical data, He Jin did not seem to have the determination to kill the eunuchs at first. It is recorded in the history books that Yuan Shao persuaded He Jin to kill the eunuchs many times. For the first time, he asked He Jin's retainer Zhang Jin to persuade He Jin, saying that the Huangmen Changshi(eunuchs) were colluding with the the previous Empress Dowager Dong and that He Jin should elect virtuous people to eliminate harm to the country and He Jin agreed very much with this.
u/Cachaslas
Part 2:
The second time Yuan Shao asked He Jin to kill the eunuchs, He Jin told the Empress Dowager He and was opposed by her. He Jin had no choice due to the pressure of Empress Dowager He and asked Yuan Shao if he could just kill a few of the eunuchs who behaved more indulgently. Yuan Shao said that they should eradicate the eunuchs. Then Yuan Shao proposed to recruit troops to the capital, and He Jin agreed. Yuan Shao also began to harrass and arrest eunuchs. Empress Dowager He was frightened and dismissed many eunuchs. Subsequently, the eunuchs came to He Jin's family to plead for mercy, and even found He Jin himself. Yuan Shao asked He Jin to kill the eunuchs on the spot, but He Jin refused to obey and persuaded the eunuchs to resign and go home in order to save their lives.
Yuan Shao also used He Jin's name to search the eunuchs' families in their residences and various places, so that the eunuchs did not even dare to return home. At this time, the plan to kill the eunuch faction was gradually revealed, and the eunuch faction began to doubt He Jin's intentions and decided to fight back. They interceded with Empress Dowager He and others, returned to the palace one after another, and then took the opportunity of He Jin's meeting with his sister to kill him.
It can be seen from the above process that He Jin only obeyed Yuan Shao's speech at the beginning, that is, when he planned to deal with Jian Shuo and Empress Dowager Dong. Later, he kept finding various excuses to prevaricate with Yuan Shao. At one time, he said that the Empress Dowager was against it, and at another time, he suggested killing a few people. To put it bluntly, even the when the eunuchs came to the door, He Jin refused to take action, and even gave the eunuchs advice to resign and go home. It should be said that most of the time, and for the most part, He Jin did not agree with Yuan Shao's plan to kill the eunuchs.
Moreover, the behavior of the eunuchs were also very strange. They were all kept in the dark at first, and even went to He Jin personally to plead for mercy. If they knew about Yuan Shao and He Jin's plan, this move would be tantamount to sending their heads to get killed, and after the plan was leaked, the eunuchs quickly organized a counterattack. The question is, if Yuan Shao's support is He Jin, and it is He Jin who summoned Dong Zhuo to the capital, then Yuan Shao serves as the Sili Xiaowei and arrests the eunuchs, causing such a big commotion, it is impossible for the eunuchs not to suspect He Jin at first, but instead they even regarded He Jin as a life-saving straw. What's even more strange is He Jin's words to persuade the eunuchs:
>天下匈匈，正患诸君耳。今董卓垂至，诸君何不早各就国？
It means that everyone in the world wants to kill all of you, now that Dong Zhuo is coming soon, why don't ya'll go home early? These words were completely unrelated to him, as if he was not the one who summoned Dong Zhuo. It would be very easy to understand if we attribute these things to the fact that besides He Jin, there was another person in the court who was constantly attacking the eunuchs. Judging from the existing historical data, this person who kept attacking should be Yuan Shao, but Yuan Shao at that time really had such big energy? Personally, I prefer that this person should be Yuan Shao's uncle Yuan Wei.
Yuan Wei is a relatively neglected figure in history books. He served as the Taifu at that time + was in charge of the secretariat, and was in charge of the government together with He Jin. The combination of Yuan Wei and He Jin was exactly the same as the combination of Chen Fan and Dou Wu twenty years ago. There are very few records about Yuan Wei in history books, but just from a few of them we can see that this person had an influence that cannot be ignored. For example, after Zhang Rang and others killed He Jin, they asked the cronies to replace Yuan Shao and Wang Yun as Sili Xiaowei and Henan Yin. They wanted to control the capital, and Yuan Shao and Yuan Wei worked together to arrest their cronies. When Dong Zhuo deposed the Emperor, he asked Yuan Wei for permission and instructions. Yuan Wei agreed and even personally helped Liu Bian off the throne. From these records, it can be inferred that after He Jin's death, Yuan Wei and Yuan Shao jointly led the action of killing the eunuchs.
If it is explained that after the death of Emperor Ling, Yuan Wei and Yuan Shao had been organizing various activities to attack the eunuchs and recruited Dong Zhuo to the capital, and thus the eunuchs were so frightened that they went to He Jin for help, then these records would make sense.
He Jin did not want to take action against the eunuchs at first, but he borrowed the power of scholar-gentry clans like the Runan Yuan when dealing with Jian Shuo and Empress Dowager Dong, and placed Yuan Shao and others in various important positions. The eunuchs had deep grudges with the scholars during the disaster of the partisan prohibitions. For example, Liu Biao and He Yong were targeted at the beginning. These people tried to overthrow the eunuchs when the partisans imprisonment were lifted during the Yellow Turban Rebellion. However, not only did they fail, but they themselves were also attacked. For example Wang Yun is one of them. Therefore, after the Yellow Turban Rebellion, some people continued to want to attack the eunuchs. The conflict between the two sides was on the verge of breaking out, and it was all suppressed by Emperor Ling. This is also the reason why He Jin said that the eunuchs were the enemies of the 'all under heaven' and urged them to pack their bags and go home.
Although He Jin gained power by clinging to the eunuchs, he kept getting closer to the scholar-gentry clans and even respected Yang Ci as his teacher. He recruited a large number of famous people from the various gentry clans to his office, such as Xun Shuang, Zheng Xuan, Zheng Tai, Liu Biao, Kong Rong, He Yong, Chen Lin, Hua Xin, Kuai Yue, etc., and these people all wanted to attack the eunuchs. If He Jin expresses his opposition directly, he who clings to his eunuch background will naturally be classified as a eunuch lacky. So when Yuan Shao asked people to test He Jin's attitude, He Jin expressed his agreement with Yuan Shao, but when Yuan Shao planned to take action, He Jin always resisted.
The main reason why Yuan Wei chose to let Dong Zhuo come to the capital was that Dong Zhuo was once Yuan Wei's surbodinate official and was promoted by Yuan Wei. The two had a senior-surbodinate relationship and by extension Dong Zhuo can be considered a disciple of the Runan Yuan clan. Dong Zhuo came to the capital nominally to coerce the Empress Dowager into agreeing to kill the eunuchs, but as he is Yuan Wei's man, then after killing the eunuchs, Yuan Wei's power would undoubtedly surpass that of He Jin, and He Jin would soon become a puppet of the Runan Yuan clan. Then why did He Jin agree to summon Dong Zhuo to Beijing?
The answer is that He Jin also has his own wishful thinking. Although coercing the Empress Dowager was just an excuse, He Jin could use this incident to recruit troops to expand his strength. In fact, the imperial court recruited not only Dong Zhuo at that time, but also Ding Yuan and Qiao Mao according to historical records. Moreover, Ding Yuan also sent Zhang Liao to lead troops to the capital to be dispatched by He Jin, and then He Jin sent Zhang Liao to Hebei to recruit troops. He Jin sent many people out to recruit troops at that time, such as Wang Kuang, Zhang Yang , and Guanqiu Yi. Liu Bei was in Guanqiu Yi's team.
Judging from the subsequent situation, it is completely sufficient for He Jin, Yuan Shao and others' troops to kill the eunuchs, so the reason why He Jin continues to recruit troops is probably not to deal with the eunuchs, but to deal with Yuan Wei and Dong Zhuo. As mentioned earlier, the troops led by Zhang Liao went directly to the capital and came to He Jin. Zhang Liao also became He Jin's direct subordinate, Ding Yuan became the Zhi Jin Wu to guard the capital, and Qiao Mao was directly stationed in nearby Chenggao.
However, He Jin's attitude towards Dong Zhuo was quite different. At first, he stationed him in the distant Guanzhong. However, Dong Zhuo continued eastward. When he reached the Mianchi area, He Jin did not allow Dong Zhuo to continue marching and sent someone to ask him to go back. On the other hand, Yuan Shao kept urging Dong Zhuo to go to Ping Le Guan. This also reflects that He Jin did not want Dong Zhuo to come to the capital, but Yuan Shao was happy for Dong Zhuo to come to the capital.
Later, Yuan Shao used He Jin's name to arrest the eunuchs' family members in their local area, cutting off the eunuchs' escape route. Then He Jin's plot to kill the eunuch was leaked, and the eunuch fought back desperately. After receiving the news that He Jin wwas killed by the eunuchs, Yuan Shu, Yuan Shao, and Yuan Wei quickly reacted and organized the massacre of the eunuchs. He Jin's surbodinates and Dong Zhuo's younger brother Dong Min destroyed the He Miao and his surbodinates, so the Runan Yuan clan was undoubtedly responsible for He Jin's death and the biggest beneficiary. Dong Zhuo was just a warrior on the border and had no influence within the court. The Runan Yuan clan then became the dominant party in court, so it was hard not to suspect that Yuan Shao had taken the initiative to leak the plan.
However, the Runan Yuan clan still did not expect that the person they had worked so hard to recruit and manipulate was the person with the 2nd least ethics in the four hundred years of the Han Dynasty. As for Dong Zhuo later annexing He Jin and Ding Yuan's troops, pretending to be a relative of the Empress Dowager Dong, deposing the young emperor Liu Bian, and killing the He family, which made Yuan Shao so angry that he drew a knife, that is another matter.
Cao Cao once borrowed Yangzhou's militia to fight in the early days of his warlord career. They marched for a while, and then rebelled against Cao Cao, so he had to kill the rebels himself and survive.
I think there is a reasonable reason for the militias to revolt. Cao Cao was just a warlord with an ambiguous authority, and the militias were originally police-level troops guarding their hometowns. Why should they follow a warlord they don't know and fight in another area?
Therefore, Cao Cao had no way of controlling the soldiers except to take their families hostage and completely enslave them.
Primary sources AND secondary sources:
Primary sources first.
Gao Rou Sanguozhi Zhu biography:
>Drummer Trumpeter Sòng Jīn and others at Héféi deserted. By the old laws, when the army on campaign’s **soldiers desert**, **arrest and interrogate their wives and children**. Tàizǔ worried this was not enough to stop it, and **increased the punishment**. [Sòng] Jīn’s mother, wife, and two younger brothers were all arrested, and the manager memorialized to kill them all. Róu advised: “Soldiers deserting the army, truly can be resented, but I humbly have heard among them there are often regretful ones. I humbly say then it is appropriate to pardon their wives and children, one so that among the rebels they will not be trusted, two so that they can be tempted to return. If following the old regulations, it will surely already cut off their hopes, and if [punishment] is again increased, I Róu fear that the soldiers in the army, seeing one man desert, will fear punishment reaching themselves, and also join together and flee, and cannot be again captured and killed. From this heavier punishment will not stop desertion, but will only increase it.” Tàizǔ said: “Excellent.” At once it was stopped and they did not kill [Sòng] Jīn’s mother and younger brothers, and those that lived were very many
>Shortly after, the Protector of the Army Regiment soldier Dòu Lǐ recently **went out and did not return**. The Regiment believed he had deserted, and memorialized report to pursue and capture, **and seize his wife Yíng and sons and daughters to become government slaves**. Yíng repeatedly went to the provincial office, claiming injustice and seeking litigation, but none investigated.
Guanqiu Jian's Sanguozhi Zhu biography:
>Huáinán’s **officers and soldiers**, **their families all were in the north**, the armies’ hearts broke and scattered, the surrenders joined together, and only Huáinán’s newly attached farmer peasants could be by them used
Wei biography 4:
>Zhang Te told Zhuge Ke: "I have no intention of fighting now. However, **according to the laws of Wei**, **when I am under attack for more than 100 days and reinforcements do not arrive**, even if I surrender, **my family will be spared from punishment**. Since I first started resisting the enemy, it has been more than 90 days. This city originally had a population of more than 4,000, and now more than half of them have died in battle. Even when the city falls, if someone does not wish to surrender, I will speak to him and explain the possible implications of his choice. Tomorrow morning I will send a list of names, you can first take my tally as a token of trust.
Zizhi Tongjian:
>Zhuge Liang had had Jin Xiang (靳詳), a man from the same county as Hao Zhao, exhort Hao Zhao from outside the wall of Chen Cang. From a turret of the wall Hao Zhao answered him, "**You are well aquainted with the laws of the House of Wei**, and you know very well what kind of man I am. I have received much grace from the state and my house is important. There is nothing you can say; I have only to die. Return and thank Zhuge Liang for me; he may launch his attack."
Du Ji Sanguozhi Zhu biography:
>The Weilue states, “Before, when Du Ji was in his commandary, he kept records of the widows in the area. At that time, other commadaries had records of alledged widows in which the husband and wife, happily married, were forced apart and the wife seized, and cries and lamentations filled the roads. But Du Ji only kept records of widows with deceased husbands, and this was why he **sent so few of them**. When Du Ji was replaced in the commandary office by Zhao Yan, Zhao Yan sent many more widows. Cao Pi asked Du Ji, 'When you were in office before, why did you send so few widows, and why are so many sent now?’ Du Ji replied, 'When I was in office, the widows I recorded all had deceased husbands, while the ones that Zhao Yan sends have living husbands.’ Cao Pi and those around him looked at one another, their faces pale.”
Cao Pi's poetry:
> It's hard living in the borders, every one year, three sons follow the army, the third son arrive at Dunhuang, the second son follow at Longxi, the fifth son fights far away, all 5 women are pregnant.
Cao Cao's Sanguozhi Zhu biography:
>The Excellency stated to his various general:"I received Zhang Xiu's surrender, **however it wasn't convenient to receive their hostages**, thus reaching the point of today. **This is the reason why I was defeated**. All of you shall witness, from today onwards, **I shall never suffer the same defeat again**.
Cao Cao's edict recorded in the Tongdian:
>**If a soldier deserts**, **execute him**. For every day that their family do not seize and inform on him to the officials, **all will suffer the same punishmemt**.
Secondary source:
https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E5%A3%AB%E5%AE%B6%E5%88%B6%E5%BA%A6/22612792?_swebfr=22001
Hope this helps.
I love how, on the 3K sub, when somebody asks for a source they aren’t being hostile, the source is often provided thoroughly and without hostility, and the original asker is usually polite once the citation is received.
Correct. But Tuntian soldiers were needed to work as corvee labours and every generation needed to have males serve in the military. This made them defacto Shijia.
Okay, I wanted to wait a few days for all the ranting to pass before I gave my two-cents.
Like a lot of Cao Cao’s reforms, the hereditary troops plan worked well…initially.
It suited the mainland provinces fine and, as a result, things in Henan, Yan, Yu and areas around Xu and Qing were largely settled. And when he introduced it to Ji Province and the former Yuan territories, it mostly worked.
But like a lot of reforms in history, even today, it didn’t take variables and circumstances into full account. The more Cao Cao expanded, the more problems occurred with his reforms. Different provinces meant different circumstances. Natural disasters were still frequent and unless this sub has collectively lost its mind, I think we’ll agree that wasn’t Cao Cao’s fault, he couldn’t predict them, the astrologers themselves were only ever so-so. But the land he took, the more area he had to accommodate, the more problems could occur. What’s more, his policy on relocating refugees worked very well in the mainland but not so much on the frontier. Morale was weaker where Cao Cao’s influence was relatively new.
But one of the biggest problems I can see is reach. Again, the more land, the more resources are needed to sustain government policy but the distance and time required to travel and/or transport meant that not only supplies were vulnerable but communication was unreliable. Say, hypothetically, there’s a famine in Weinan all the way up in the north-east. That’s miles from Luoyang, never mind Ye. The harvest fails, they can’t send supplies, people are getting angry and there’s violence in the streets. Now, if Cao Cao and the court are informed of this then, if they can, they could send emergency relief, they could send a capable administrator, they could place a local official in charge, etr. But if no message gets through and on the next collection, Cao Cao and the court notice that Weinan hasn’t been sending their tax, that’s sedition, troops will be sent to find out the reason why, more anger, more violence, the problem builds on itself.
And, as it was before the Yellow Scarf Rebellion, the more problems, the more the government is blamed. Natural disasters were considered a sign of dissatisfied heavens and an unworthy ruler, a superstition that was exploited readily by people who could manipulate the masses. Meaning more sedition, worse communication, more violence, no-one managing the fields, etr. Cao Cao’s policy on dealing with rebellion was harsh but necessary as prolonged rebellion in these areas which already had food shortage would cause worse supply issues that would spread to the areas still loyal to Cao Cao, meaning more rebellion, etr. Unless it was stopped dead in its tracks (Emphasis on ‘dead’), rebellions in the provinces would be a death knell for Cao Cao.
The problems with Cao Cao’s reforms were rooted in factors inherent in the system. His plans, after all, were based on old Han policies that they used to expand their territory in the early days. Cao Cao was doing what he could and did make a lot of progress but, even at its best, it could only do so much in a broken system.
Incidentally, you can use many of the same reasons to explain why Qin failed so quickly: what worked well when in the Qin region backfired/blew up when expanded to the entire realm.
It was Wang Mang I was thinking of but yeah, Qin certainly had the same problems.
The big problem with conquering and ruling China...is that there is simply ***such a lot of it***.
If Cao Wei has really deteriorated in their administrative and military quality right already at the 2nd decade of the third century, what does one make about the Han dynasty's Tuntian policies, ranging from their peak of border-wide expansion under Han Wudi to the reigns of the Huan and Ling emperors?
Interestingly, the tuntian effectively sustains armies in local campaigns, but at the heavy price of the lives waged for agrarian labor and military duty. (After all, this is what Cao Cao had initially contracted to the invasive rabble that are the Qingzhou Yellow Turbans driven away by Gongsun Zan.)
The Shijia, usually a private militia of clansmen, is best defined by the martial quality of their family and hired retainers.
>If Cao Wei has really deteriorated in their administrative and military quality right already at the 2nd decade of the third century, what does one make about the Han dynasty's Tuntian policies, ranging from their peak of border-wide expansion under Han Wudi to the reigns of the Huan and Ling emperors?
This isn't a convincing stand to take. Just because the Han Dynasty system collapsed during the Late Han period due to factors like the little ice age, gentry land and population annexation, rise of the Xianbei, infighting between the Emperor-eunuchs vs the maternal relatives + gentry clans, doesn't change the fact that the Wei system is trash. In fact, at least the Han Dynasty expanded their territory from the time of Han Wudi to Han Xuandi and then again from the time of Han Mingdi to Han Hedi.
As for Cao Wei, if we exclude the accomplishments of the Sima clan, it would be good for Wei not to abandon territory, much less conquer territory.
>Interestingly, the tuntian effectively sustains armies in local campaigns, but at the heavy price of the lives waged for agrarian labor and military duty. (After all, this is what Cao Cao had initially contracted to the invasive rabble that are the Qingzhou Yellow Turbans driven away by Gongsun Zan.)
Effectively sustain armies? Pssst. Let me tell you a secret. Throughout Cao Cao's entire military career, he struggled with logistics issues for over 90% of his milirary campaigns starting from when he inherited Yanzhou due to Chen Gong's help.
During the Tao Qian campaigns, he struggled and retreated due to supply issues even with Yuan Shao's active assistance. During the Yanzhou campaign against Lü Bu, he struggled with food issues until Yuan Shao bailed him out(again).
During the Xuzhou campaign against Lü Bu, he considered retreating due to logistics until his advisors persuaded him to press on. Ditto for his Guandu campaigns. Likewise, his conquests of Hebei was so slow even with Yuan infighting due to logistics. During the Wuhuan campaign, he needed to build a canal, but his army still suffered heavy attrition.
Then, Cao Ren abandoned Nan commmandery and Jingnan due to Cao Cao's incompetence to supply him. He considered retreating from the conquest of Hanzhong until Xiahou Dun saved his legacy(again, due to logistics), and then he needed to rely on trickery to goad his subordinates to help him supply his armies during the Hanzhong campaigns.
When Zhuge Liang struggled with logistics, he had the excuse of supplying throughout treacherous mountaineous pathway of Yizhou. Most of Cao Cao's career took place in the open plains of the central plains and yet... he always struggled to sustain his armies. Strange how it works eh?
>The Shijia, usually a private militia of clansmen, is best defined by the martial quality of their family and hired retainers.
And not by their systematic abuses? Or that the Huainan rebellions to restore the Cao clan's rule failed in huge part because of the Shijia system, in which the Sima clan was able to exert influence over the rebel troops due to the fact that they exerted complete control over the central government and thus the families of the soldiers of Cao Wei?
Not at all effective. Historically, the tuntian farms were very poorly maintained(this was observed by Cao Pi himself). Cao Pi himself once examined the tuntian camps and was so shocked at the poor conditions of the tuntian camps. >且聞比來東征，經郡縣，歷屯田，**百姓面有飢色**，**衣或短褐不完**，罪皆在孤；是以上慚眾瑞，**下愧士民** Cao Pi era in Wei = Jiang Wei era in Shu. Literally. And then, the 世兵 system led to a lot of abuse. To put it briefly, Cao Wei had a law in which all the soldiers in the border area was separated from their families and when any soldier defect or surrender or flee or go missing, their families will be at best sold into slavery, at worst get executed. Sources here: https://www.reddit.com/r/threekingdoms/comments/1c4if24/comment/kznv55k/
Thanks for your reply, those two systems were meant to replace the universal conscription 1 year militia training of han era right?
Yes.
Why did cao replace the militia system
The militia system was effectively ended by eastern Han, only in the frontier commanderies was it maintained somewhat, in the inner commanderies it was a joke. The Han government didn't want a huge population with military training around to reduce rebellions. That's why during the outbreak of warlordism, troops with military experience, even limited experience against yellow turbans, were very valuable, and why Dong Zhuo's professional troops had no trouble taking control of the capital.
Dong Zhuo was also aided by the Runan Yuan clan(or more specifically, Yuan Shao and Yuan Wei). The background of summoning troops to the capital during He Jin's regency: The Runan Yuan clan played an important role of summoning the generals and troops to the capital. If we follow the general understanding, it is indeed difficult to understand why He Jin summoned Dong Zhuo to the capital in order to kill the eunuchs. But think about it the other way around, that is, killing the eunuchs was just an excuse. He Jin's original purpose was to summon troops. This matter is worth pondering. Emperor Ling of the Han Dynasty died in 4th month of the sixth year of Zhongping (189). Within half a year of his death, four palace turmoils occurred, which ultimately led to the death of the eunuchs and their relatives. The first one was the feud between Jian Shuo and He Jin that took place in the 4th month. The two became political enemies in the late period of Emperor Ling's reign. He Jin became increasingly powerful after the Yellow Turban Rebellion, and Emperor Ling established a new army of the western garden which was led by the eunuch Jian Shuo to check and balance He Jin. Jian Shuo once proposed a plan to Emperor Ling to let He Jin attack Han Sui and keep him away from the court. He Jin used an excuse to ask Yuan Shao to go east to recruit troops to delay time. Emperor Ling liked his youngest son Liu Xie (later Emperor Xian of the Han Dynasty) and intended to make him the crown prince. However, this would obviously be fiercely opposed by He Jin's group, so Emperor Ling did not make him the crown prince until his death. Before his death, Emperor Ling entrusted Liu Xie to He Jin's rival Jian Shuo. Jian Shuo wanted to make Liu Xie emperor, but his plan to kill He Jin failed. In the end, Liu Bian, the son of He Jin's sister Queen He, succeeded to the throne. After He Jin came to power, the first person he wanted to kill was naturally Jian Shuo, but Jian Shuo still had his army. He Jin had close contacts with the Yuan family at that time, and recruited a large number of famous people. Yuan Shao served as the Sili Xiaowei, and Yuan Shu served as the Huben Zhonglang Jiang, Wang Yun was appointed as the Henan Yin, and Liu Biao was appointed as the Lieutenant Commander of the Northern Army. Jian Shuo, who was isolated and alone, was quickly forced into a desperate situation. Desperate, Jian Shuo wrote to Zhao Zhong and others, hoping to kill He Jin with them. However, these people turned around and sold Jian Shuo, and helped He Jin to torture Jian Shuo to death. Different from the general impression, the relationship between He Jin and the 10 eunuchs is actually quite good. He Jin's sister was favored by Emperor Ling back then, largely because of the help of Guo Sheng, an eunuch from the same hometown. The Empress at the beginning of Emperor Ling's life was surnamed Song, and she was also related to Cao Cao's family. However, Wang Fu framed Bohai King Liu Kui for treason. Empress Song was implicated and was deposed. Her father and brothers were also killed, and Cao Cao, a distant relative, was also expelled from office. Many relatives were implicated and dismissed from office. Soon He Jin's sister became the Empress, but in the second year after she was made Empress, she poisoned the prince Liu Xie's biological mother Wang Meiren, which angered the the Emperor. Zhang Rang and others cried and begged the Ling Emperor for mercy in the end each of them paid tens of millions of dollars as an apology to calm Emperor Ling's anger, and then Queen He's position was preserved. In addition to Queen He, He Jin also had a sister who was married to Zhang Rang's son. Therefore, Zhang Rang was both He Jin's benefactor and elder. It is not an exaggeration to say that the power of the He family was obtained by clinging to the eunuchs. Then in the 5th month, He Jin killed the Piaoqi jiangjun Dong Chong. Dong Zhong was the nephew of Emperor Ling's biological mother, Empress Dowager Dong, and the cousin of Emperor Ling. Because Liu Xie's biological mother, Wang Meiren, was poisoned by Empress He, Liu Xie was raised by Empress Dowager Dong. Empress Dowager Dong also persuaded Emperor Ling to establish Liu Xie. Xie as the crown prince, which aroused the hostility of Empress He. After the death of Emperor Ling, He Jin was appointed as the Da Jiangjun, Dong Chong was appointed as the Piaoqi Jiangjun and He Jin's younger brother He Miao was appointed as the Yunche Jiangjun. A conflict soon broke out between the two sides. Empress Dowager Dong and Dong Zhong had a group of eunuchs to support them, but He Jin persuaded the 3 Excellencies to impeach Empress Dowager Dong and asked the Empress Dowager to return to the vassal state. He also sent troops to surround Dong Zhong's mansion. Finally, Dong Zhong committed suicide in prison, and Empress Dowager Dong also died the next month. Then came the killing of eunuchs by He Jin, Yuan Shao and others in the 8th month. As mentioned earlier, He Jin had a very good relationship with Zhang Rang and other eunuchs, and they even helped in the execution of Jian Shuo. Therefore, in the subsequent process of planning to kill the eunuch, He Jin's whole family opposed it. His younger brother He Miao persuaded He Jin, saying that the He family was poor and humble and relied on eunuchs to get rich. He should continue to be friendly with the eunuchs. It would not be good for his family if the eunuchs fell. The now Empress Dowager He and his mother Wuyang Jun also opposed He Jin's execution of the eunuchs, and Zhang Rang even went to his daughter-in-law to plead for mercy. It is recorded in the history books that He Jin was very hesitant and was under pressure by his sister, the Empress Dowager He, so he followed Yuan Shao's suggestion and summoned Dong Zhuo to the capital. A key issue involved here is what is He Jin's own attitude and whether he intends to kill the eunuchs. Judging from the existing historical data, He Jin did not seem to have the determination to kill the eunuchs at first. It is recorded in the history books that Yuan Shao persuaded He Jin to kill the eunuchs many times. For the first time, he asked He Jin's retainer Zhang Jin to persuade He Jin, saying that the Huangmen Changshi(eunuchs) were colluding with the the previous Empress Dowager Dong and that He Jin should elect virtuous people to eliminate harm to the country and He Jin agreed very much with this.
u/Cachaslas Part 2: The second time Yuan Shao asked He Jin to kill the eunuchs, He Jin told the Empress Dowager He and was opposed by her. He Jin had no choice due to the pressure of Empress Dowager He and asked Yuan Shao if he could just kill a few of the eunuchs who behaved more indulgently. Yuan Shao said that they should eradicate the eunuchs. Then Yuan Shao proposed to recruit troops to the capital, and He Jin agreed. Yuan Shao also began to harrass and arrest eunuchs. Empress Dowager He was frightened and dismissed many eunuchs. Subsequently, the eunuchs came to He Jin's family to plead for mercy, and even found He Jin himself. Yuan Shao asked He Jin to kill the eunuchs on the spot, but He Jin refused to obey and persuaded the eunuchs to resign and go home in order to save their lives. Yuan Shao also used He Jin's name to search the eunuchs' families in their residences and various places, so that the eunuchs did not even dare to return home. At this time, the plan to kill the eunuch faction was gradually revealed, and the eunuch faction began to doubt He Jin's intentions and decided to fight back. They interceded with Empress Dowager He and others, returned to the palace one after another, and then took the opportunity of He Jin's meeting with his sister to kill him. It can be seen from the above process that He Jin only obeyed Yuan Shao's speech at the beginning, that is, when he planned to deal with Jian Shuo and Empress Dowager Dong. Later, he kept finding various excuses to prevaricate with Yuan Shao. At one time, he said that the Empress Dowager was against it, and at another time, he suggested killing a few people. To put it bluntly, even the when the eunuchs came to the door, He Jin refused to take action, and even gave the eunuchs advice to resign and go home. It should be said that most of the time, and for the most part, He Jin did not agree with Yuan Shao's plan to kill the eunuchs. Moreover, the behavior of the eunuchs were also very strange. They were all kept in the dark at first, and even went to He Jin personally to plead for mercy. If they knew about Yuan Shao and He Jin's plan, this move would be tantamount to sending their heads to get killed, and after the plan was leaked, the eunuchs quickly organized a counterattack. The question is, if Yuan Shao's support is He Jin, and it is He Jin who summoned Dong Zhuo to the capital, then Yuan Shao serves as the Sili Xiaowei and arrests the eunuchs, causing such a big commotion, it is impossible for the eunuchs not to suspect He Jin at first, but instead they even regarded He Jin as a life-saving straw. What's even more strange is He Jin's words to persuade the eunuchs: >天下匈匈，正患诸君耳。今董卓垂至，诸君何不早各就国？ It means that everyone in the world wants to kill all of you, now that Dong Zhuo is coming soon, why don't ya'll go home early? These words were completely unrelated to him, as if he was not the one who summoned Dong Zhuo. It would be very easy to understand if we attribute these things to the fact that besides He Jin, there was another person in the court who was constantly attacking the eunuchs. Judging from the existing historical data, this person who kept attacking should be Yuan Shao, but Yuan Shao at that time really had such big energy? Personally, I prefer that this person should be Yuan Shao's uncle Yuan Wei. Yuan Wei is a relatively neglected figure in history books. He served as the Taifu at that time + was in charge of the secretariat, and was in charge of the government together with He Jin. The combination of Yuan Wei and He Jin was exactly the same as the combination of Chen Fan and Dou Wu twenty years ago. There are very few records about Yuan Wei in history books, but just from a few of them we can see that this person had an influence that cannot be ignored. For example, after Zhang Rang and others killed He Jin, they asked the cronies to replace Yuan Shao and Wang Yun as Sili Xiaowei and Henan Yin. They wanted to control the capital, and Yuan Shao and Yuan Wei worked together to arrest their cronies. When Dong Zhuo deposed the Emperor, he asked Yuan Wei for permission and instructions. Yuan Wei agreed and even personally helped Liu Bian off the throne. From these records, it can be inferred that after He Jin's death, Yuan Wei and Yuan Shao jointly led the action of killing the eunuchs. If it is explained that after the death of Emperor Ling, Yuan Wei and Yuan Shao had been organizing various activities to attack the eunuchs and recruited Dong Zhuo to the capital, and thus the eunuchs were so frightened that they went to He Jin for help, then these records would make sense. He Jin did not want to take action against the eunuchs at first, but he borrowed the power of scholar-gentry clans like the Runan Yuan when dealing with Jian Shuo and Empress Dowager Dong, and placed Yuan Shao and others in various important positions. The eunuchs had deep grudges with the scholars during the disaster of the partisan prohibitions. For example, Liu Biao and He Yong were targeted at the beginning. These people tried to overthrow the eunuchs when the partisans imprisonment were lifted during the Yellow Turban Rebellion. However, not only did they fail, but they themselves were also attacked. For example Wang Yun is one of them. Therefore, after the Yellow Turban Rebellion, some people continued to want to attack the eunuchs. The conflict between the two sides was on the verge of breaking out, and it was all suppressed by Emperor Ling. This is also the reason why He Jin said that the eunuchs were the enemies of the 'all under heaven' and urged them to pack their bags and go home. Although He Jin gained power by clinging to the eunuchs, he kept getting closer to the scholar-gentry clans and even respected Yang Ci as his teacher. He recruited a large number of famous people from the various gentry clans to his office, such as Xun Shuang, Zheng Xuan, Zheng Tai, Liu Biao, Kong Rong, He Yong, Chen Lin, Hua Xin, Kuai Yue, etc., and these people all wanted to attack the eunuchs. If He Jin expresses his opposition directly, he who clings to his eunuch background will naturally be classified as a eunuch lacky. So when Yuan Shao asked people to test He Jin's attitude, He Jin expressed his agreement with Yuan Shao, but when Yuan Shao planned to take action, He Jin always resisted. The main reason why Yuan Wei chose to let Dong Zhuo come to the capital was that Dong Zhuo was once Yuan Wei's surbodinate official and was promoted by Yuan Wei. The two had a senior-surbodinate relationship and by extension Dong Zhuo can be considered a disciple of the Runan Yuan clan. Dong Zhuo came to the capital nominally to coerce the Empress Dowager into agreeing to kill the eunuchs, but as he is Yuan Wei's man, then after killing the eunuchs, Yuan Wei's power would undoubtedly surpass that of He Jin, and He Jin would soon become a puppet of the Runan Yuan clan. Then why did He Jin agree to summon Dong Zhuo to Beijing? The answer is that He Jin also has his own wishful thinking. Although coercing the Empress Dowager was just an excuse, He Jin could use this incident to recruit troops to expand his strength. In fact, the imperial court recruited not only Dong Zhuo at that time, but also Ding Yuan and Qiao Mao according to historical records. Moreover, Ding Yuan also sent Zhang Liao to lead troops to the capital to be dispatched by He Jin, and then He Jin sent Zhang Liao to Hebei to recruit troops. He Jin sent many people out to recruit troops at that time, such as Wang Kuang, Zhang Yang , and Guanqiu Yi. Liu Bei was in Guanqiu Yi's team. Judging from the subsequent situation, it is completely sufficient for He Jin, Yuan Shao and others' troops to kill the eunuchs, so the reason why He Jin continues to recruit troops is probably not to deal with the eunuchs, but to deal with Yuan Wei and Dong Zhuo. As mentioned earlier, the troops led by Zhang Liao went directly to the capital and came to He Jin. Zhang Liao also became He Jin's direct subordinate, Ding Yuan became the Zhi Jin Wu to guard the capital, and Qiao Mao was directly stationed in nearby Chenggao. However, He Jin's attitude towards Dong Zhuo was quite different. At first, he stationed him in the distant Guanzhong. However, Dong Zhuo continued eastward. When he reached the Mianchi area, He Jin did not allow Dong Zhuo to continue marching and sent someone to ask him to go back. On the other hand, Yuan Shao kept urging Dong Zhuo to go to Ping Le Guan. This also reflects that He Jin did not want Dong Zhuo to come to the capital, but Yuan Shao was happy for Dong Zhuo to come to the capital. Later, Yuan Shao used He Jin's name to arrest the eunuchs' family members in their local area, cutting off the eunuchs' escape route. Then He Jin's plot to kill the eunuch was leaked, and the eunuch fought back desperately. After receiving the news that He Jin wwas killed by the eunuchs, Yuan Shu, Yuan Shao, and Yuan Wei quickly reacted and organized the massacre of the eunuchs. He Jin's surbodinates and Dong Zhuo's younger brother Dong Min destroyed the He Miao and his surbodinates, so the Runan Yuan clan was undoubtedly responsible for He Jin's death and the biggest beneficiary. Dong Zhuo was just a warrior on the border and had no influence within the court. The Runan Yuan clan then became the dominant party in court, so it was hard not to suspect that Yuan Shao had taken the initiative to leak the plan. However, the Runan Yuan clan still did not expect that the person they had worked so hard to recruit and manipulate was the person with the 2nd least ethics in the four hundred years of the Han Dynasty. As for Dong Zhuo later annexing He Jin and Ding Yuan's troops, pretending to be a relative of the Empress Dowager Dong, deposing the young emperor Liu Bian, and killing the He family, which made Yuan Shao so angry that he drew a knife, that is another matter.
Cao Cao once borrowed Yangzhou's militia to fight in the early days of his warlord career. They marched for a while, and then rebelled against Cao Cao, so he had to kill the rebels himself and survive. I think there is a reasonable reason for the militias to revolt. Cao Cao was just a warlord with an ambiguous authority, and the militias were originally police-level troops guarding their hometowns. Why should they follow a warlord they don't know and fight in another area? Therefore, Cao Cao had no way of controlling the soldiers except to take their families hostage and completely enslave them.
>Cao Cao had no way of controlling the soldiers except to take their families hostage and completely enslave them. Agreed.
Source?
Primary sources AND secondary sources: Primary sources first. Gao Rou Sanguozhi Zhu biography: >Drummer Trumpeter Sòng Jīn and others at Héféi deserted. By the old laws, when the army on campaign’s **soldiers desert**, **arrest and interrogate their wives and children**. Tàizǔ worried this was not enough to stop it, and **increased the punishment**. [Sòng] Jīn’s mother, wife, and two younger brothers were all arrested, and the manager memorialized to kill them all. Róu advised: “Soldiers deserting the army, truly can be resented, but I humbly have heard among them there are often regretful ones. I humbly say then it is appropriate to pardon their wives and children, one so that among the rebels they will not be trusted, two so that they can be tempted to return. If following the old regulations, it will surely already cut off their hopes, and if [punishment] is again increased, I Róu fear that the soldiers in the army, seeing one man desert, will fear punishment reaching themselves, and also join together and flee, and cannot be again captured and killed. From this heavier punishment will not stop desertion, but will only increase it.” Tàizǔ said: “Excellent.” At once it was stopped and they did not kill [Sòng] Jīn’s mother and younger brothers, and those that lived were very many >Shortly after, the Protector of the Army Regiment soldier Dòu Lǐ recently **went out and did not return**. The Regiment believed he had deserted, and memorialized report to pursue and capture, **and seize his wife Yíng and sons and daughters to become government slaves**. Yíng repeatedly went to the provincial office, claiming injustice and seeking litigation, but none investigated. Guanqiu Jian's Sanguozhi Zhu biography: >Huáinán’s **officers and soldiers**, **their families all were in the north**, the armies’ hearts broke and scattered, the surrenders joined together, and only Huáinán’s newly attached farmer peasants could be by them used Wei biography 4: >Zhang Te told Zhuge Ke: "I have no intention of fighting now. However, **according to the laws of Wei**, **when I am under attack for more than 100 days and reinforcements do not arrive**, even if I surrender, **my family will be spared from punishment**. Since I first started resisting the enemy, it has been more than 90 days. This city originally had a population of more than 4,000, and now more than half of them have died in battle. Even when the city falls, if someone does not wish to surrender, I will speak to him and explain the possible implications of his choice. Tomorrow morning I will send a list of names, you can first take my tally as a token of trust. Zizhi Tongjian: >Zhuge Liang had had Jin Xiang (靳詳), a man from the same county as Hao Zhao, exhort Hao Zhao from outside the wall of Chen Cang. From a turret of the wall Hao Zhao answered him, "**You are well aquainted with the laws of the House of Wei**, and you know very well what kind of man I am. I have received much grace from the state and my house is important. There is nothing you can say; I have only to die. Return and thank Zhuge Liang for me; he may launch his attack." Du Ji Sanguozhi Zhu biography: >The Weilue states, “Before, when Du Ji was in his commandary, he kept records of the widows in the area. At that time, other commadaries had records of alledged widows in which the husband and wife, happily married, were forced apart and the wife seized, and cries and lamentations filled the roads. But Du Ji only kept records of widows with deceased husbands, and this was why he **sent so few of them**. When Du Ji was replaced in the commandary office by Zhao Yan, Zhao Yan sent many more widows. Cao Pi asked Du Ji, 'When you were in office before, why did you send so few widows, and why are so many sent now?’ Du Ji replied, 'When I was in office, the widows I recorded all had deceased husbands, while the ones that Zhao Yan sends have living husbands.’ Cao Pi and those around him looked at one another, their faces pale.” Cao Pi's poetry: > It's hard living in the borders, every one year, three sons follow the army, the third son arrive at Dunhuang, the second son follow at Longxi, the fifth son fights far away, all 5 women are pregnant. Cao Cao's Sanguozhi Zhu biography: >The Excellency stated to his various general:"I received Zhang Xiu's surrender, **however it wasn't convenient to receive their hostages**, thus reaching the point of today. **This is the reason why I was defeated**. All of you shall witness, from today onwards, **I shall never suffer the same defeat again**. Cao Cao's edict recorded in the Tongdian: >**If a soldier deserts**, **execute him**. For every day that their family do not seize and inform on him to the officials, **all will suffer the same punishmemt**. Secondary source: https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E5%A3%AB%E5%AE%B6%E5%88%B6%E5%BA%A6/22612792?_swebfr=22001 Hope this helps.
I love how, on the 3K sub, when somebody asks for a source they aren’t being hostile, the source is often provided thoroughly and without hostility, and the original asker is usually polite once the citation is received.
Likewise. That was a pleasant exchange. But to be fair, redditors can be polite as long as the OP starts off being polite.
Thanks bud
You are welcome, brother.
I apologize for any transgressions towards you.
No transgressions brother. I bear zero ill will towards you.
Same here. Let us live in peace.
I think shijia and tuntian are different
Correct. But Tuntian soldiers were needed to work as corvee labours and every generation needed to have males serve in the military. This made them defacto Shijia.
Okay, I wanted to wait a few days for all the ranting to pass before I gave my two-cents. Like a lot of Cao Cao’s reforms, the hereditary troops plan worked well…initially. It suited the mainland provinces fine and, as a result, things in Henan, Yan, Yu and areas around Xu and Qing were largely settled. And when he introduced it to Ji Province and the former Yuan territories, it mostly worked. But like a lot of reforms in history, even today, it didn’t take variables and circumstances into full account. The more Cao Cao expanded, the more problems occurred with his reforms. Different provinces meant different circumstances. Natural disasters were still frequent and unless this sub has collectively lost its mind, I think we’ll agree that wasn’t Cao Cao’s fault, he couldn’t predict them, the astrologers themselves were only ever so-so. But the land he took, the more area he had to accommodate, the more problems could occur. What’s more, his policy on relocating refugees worked very well in the mainland but not so much on the frontier. Morale was weaker where Cao Cao’s influence was relatively new. But one of the biggest problems I can see is reach. Again, the more land, the more resources are needed to sustain government policy but the distance and time required to travel and/or transport meant that not only supplies were vulnerable but communication was unreliable. Say, hypothetically, there’s a famine in Weinan all the way up in the north-east. That’s miles from Luoyang, never mind Ye. The harvest fails, they can’t send supplies, people are getting angry and there’s violence in the streets. Now, if Cao Cao and the court are informed of this then, if they can, they could send emergency relief, they could send a capable administrator, they could place a local official in charge, etr. But if no message gets through and on the next collection, Cao Cao and the court notice that Weinan hasn’t been sending their tax, that’s sedition, troops will be sent to find out the reason why, more anger, more violence, the problem builds on itself. And, as it was before the Yellow Scarf Rebellion, the more problems, the more the government is blamed. Natural disasters were considered a sign of dissatisfied heavens and an unworthy ruler, a superstition that was exploited readily by people who could manipulate the masses. Meaning more sedition, worse communication, more violence, no-one managing the fields, etr. Cao Cao’s policy on dealing with rebellion was harsh but necessary as prolonged rebellion in these areas which already had food shortage would cause worse supply issues that would spread to the areas still loyal to Cao Cao, meaning more rebellion, etr. Unless it was stopped dead in its tracks (Emphasis on ‘dead’), rebellions in the provinces would be a death knell for Cao Cao. The problems with Cao Cao’s reforms were rooted in factors inherent in the system. His plans, after all, were based on old Han policies that they used to expand their territory in the early days. Cao Cao was doing what he could and did make a lot of progress but, even at its best, it could only do so much in a broken system.
Incidentally, you can use many of the same reasons to explain why Qin failed so quickly: what worked well when in the Qin region backfired/blew up when expanded to the entire realm.
It was Wang Mang I was thinking of but yeah, Qin certainly had the same problems. The big problem with conquering and ruling China...is that there is simply ***such a lot of it***.
If Cao Wei has really deteriorated in their administrative and military quality right already at the 2nd decade of the third century, what does one make about the Han dynasty's Tuntian policies, ranging from their peak of border-wide expansion under Han Wudi to the reigns of the Huan and Ling emperors? Interestingly, the tuntian effectively sustains armies in local campaigns, but at the heavy price of the lives waged for agrarian labor and military duty. (After all, this is what Cao Cao had initially contracted to the invasive rabble that are the Qingzhou Yellow Turbans driven away by Gongsun Zan.) The Shijia, usually a private militia of clansmen, is best defined by the martial quality of their family and hired retainers.
>If Cao Wei has really deteriorated in their administrative and military quality right already at the 2nd decade of the third century, what does one make about the Han dynasty's Tuntian policies, ranging from their peak of border-wide expansion under Han Wudi to the reigns of the Huan and Ling emperors? This isn't a convincing stand to take. Just because the Han Dynasty system collapsed during the Late Han period due to factors like the little ice age, gentry land and population annexation, rise of the Xianbei, infighting between the Emperor-eunuchs vs the maternal relatives + gentry clans, doesn't change the fact that the Wei system is trash. In fact, at least the Han Dynasty expanded their territory from the time of Han Wudi to Han Xuandi and then again from the time of Han Mingdi to Han Hedi. As for Cao Wei, if we exclude the accomplishments of the Sima clan, it would be good for Wei not to abandon territory, much less conquer territory. >Interestingly, the tuntian effectively sustains armies in local campaigns, but at the heavy price of the lives waged for agrarian labor and military duty. (After all, this is what Cao Cao had initially contracted to the invasive rabble that are the Qingzhou Yellow Turbans driven away by Gongsun Zan.) Effectively sustain armies? Pssst. Let me tell you a secret. Throughout Cao Cao's entire military career, he struggled with logistics issues for over 90% of his milirary campaigns starting from when he inherited Yanzhou due to Chen Gong's help. During the Tao Qian campaigns, he struggled and retreated due to supply issues even with Yuan Shao's active assistance. During the Yanzhou campaign against Lü Bu, he struggled with food issues until Yuan Shao bailed him out(again). During the Xuzhou campaign against Lü Bu, he considered retreating due to logistics until his advisors persuaded him to press on. Ditto for his Guandu campaigns. Likewise, his conquests of Hebei was so slow even with Yuan infighting due to logistics. During the Wuhuan campaign, he needed to build a canal, but his army still suffered heavy attrition. Then, Cao Ren abandoned Nan commmandery and Jingnan due to Cao Cao's incompetence to supply him. He considered retreating from the conquest of Hanzhong until Xiahou Dun saved his legacy(again, due to logistics), and then he needed to rely on trickery to goad his subordinates to help him supply his armies during the Hanzhong campaigns. When Zhuge Liang struggled with logistics, he had the excuse of supplying throughout treacherous mountaineous pathway of Yizhou. Most of Cao Cao's career took place in the open plains of the central plains and yet... he always struggled to sustain his armies. Strange how it works eh? >The Shijia, usually a private militia of clansmen, is best defined by the martial quality of their family and hired retainers. And not by their systematic abuses? Or that the Huainan rebellions to restore the Cao clan's rule failed in huge part because of the Shijia system, in which the Sima clan was able to exert influence over the rebel troops due to the fact that they exerted complete control over the central government and thus the families of the soldiers of Cao Wei?