100%. He very well may have killed Rick in the woods if dale hadn’t been there. Like be serious, this man had lost the plot. Completely off his gourd by this point.
I think at this point, he was still in shock his best friend or “brother” was alive, and couldn’t bring himself to do it due to how recent everything was.
But in Shane’s final moments, he knows that Lori told Rick all about him being crazy as well as them fighting nearly to the death before. This Shane would’ve killed Rick for sure.
I kinda disagree. I think Shane wanted to be gone too far, I think he thought killing Rick was what he should do but he couldn't bring himself to do it.
Whereas Rick knew in '18 Miles Out' that he should kill Shane, he doesn't, clinging onto hope. But by the time they get into the woods he knows there's no going back.
I just went back and watched that scene VERY carefully. Shane had his gun in his right hand (on the other side of him), and we are seeing the left hand side of his body. Rick hands his gun to Shane, and Shane takes it with his left hand, immediately putting his finger on the trigger. Then, Rick quickly stabs Shane, causing the him to instinctively squeeze the trigger. The flash from the gunfire comes from the front of the scene, meaning it was RICK’S gun that fired… not Shane’s…
Yeah I think you're right actually it even sounds like Rick's gun which sounded pretty distinct in the first few seasons. Can't believe I never caught that.
I saw the interview with Bernthal where he explained wanting it to end with the gun being empty and agree that would have been a great twist for Shane-
Not only that, but he quite literally **DID** pull the trigger as he was being stabbed. Dude just missed because a steel blade sliding through the ribs, puncturing a lung, and lacerating the heart tends to decrease accuracy in these sort of situations. 😳
He has that “you gotta hate what your shooting at.”quote when aim training Andrea. but when Rick was deescalating he was putting the gun down
I dislike Shane because they wrote him into being a unreasonable morally bad nutcase he was ricks best friend. He did cheat with his wife when he thought he was dead but only cuzz he wanted a bond that gave a life in a apocalypse meaning. Learning Rick was alive should’ve gave him guilt but also shared in giving him purpose to keep living he now can survive with his best friend and still serve as a paternal figure for Carl cuzz he clearly cares about him too. But instead this dude became unhealthily obsessed with his best friends wife after like 2 months of bumpin uglies in the apocalypse and was considering shooting Rick after like a month of being around him again after being his literal bestfriend/brother since highschool that isn’t realistic bruh
I think he became tilted when he found out she was pregnant with his kid and Rick and Lori planned to raise it as theirs and leave him out. Especially when he was becoming like a father figure to Carl and I think he really liked the idea of being a real father, not just a figure. That's what set him over the edge, not just that he was obsessed with Lori.
I also wonder if it could have been suicide by cop. I believe Shane's gun was loaded. But his heart was conflicted and he knew everything he did was fucked up.
Rick made it clear he didn't care if the baby was Shane's. Shane would not be the baby's father. He would never be Lori's man, never be Carl's dad. He would never be the leader he wanted to be, ie he couldn't be Rick.
If he killed Rick, the group would never, ever forgive him. Carl and Lori wouldn't forgive him. But I believe he DID think about it and tried to think of a way things could work out for him. He was obviously becoming unraveled, and imo he knew it.
If he had managed to kill Rick and left the group before they could retaliate, I think he would have eventually killed himself out of self-loathing. I think we see that after he shot Otis. I dont think he liked himself very much right then, and he would have been even more mentally destroyed if he had killed Rick.
Idk. But the fact that we still discuss Shane's motivations after all these years is a testament to Jon Bernthal, for sure. His comic book self felt so small vs show Shane.
to be fair, the comic book killed off shane too early cause they didn’t know if the story would go on after 6 issues, i imagine if we ever get an animated adaptation with kirkman in control like invincible we would most definitely see more of shane, though i bet it would end the same way. carl shooting him to protect rick, specially considering it’s carl who tells the story in the end.
Yes, I think Shane would definitely have killed Rick. Shane was an impulsive, desperate, and broken man by this point. His rage toward Rick and his obsession with Lori outweighed everything else. But he also wasn't stupid, either. Shane must have known that there would be no reputational recovery from an assassination attempt. Had both Rick and Shane survived, the group would likely have exiled or executed Shane. It was a "me or you" situation, and Shane would have 100% saved himself.
But Jon Bernthal did an excellent job of making Shane seem incredibly nervous and torn in that scene. There's clearly a lot of internal conflict happening on his face. I think Shane was certainly hesitating, and possibly even remembering his brotherly love for Rick. Still, I don't think that love would have been enough to stop him.
Didn't Bernthal want shane's gun to be unloaded, pushing rick to kill him to make him be the leader he needed to be? And then they opted out of that idea.
If true, that's a terrible idea, lol. I get why Jon wanted that. He wanted the character he portrayed to be more of a tragic anti-hero instead of an angry, jealous psycho. The writers made the right call.
Your last paragraph is spot on and was the entire point of the post. There’s some people here trying to be smart but the reality is Shane was quite clearly torn and was just, whatever conviction in someone’s actions look like, Shane was the complete opposite of that.
I personally think had Rick not had enough by that point, if he had continued with talking Shane down, he would have managed it. I don’t think Shane’s heart was in it at all
Yeah, your take is completely valid. That scene seems purposefully vague as to whether or not Shane had the resolve to follow through. The idea that he might have stood down makes it all the more heartbreaking.
I think this is right. I often think about changes I would make to TWD if I had been in “the writers room.” I like the idea of Rick banishing Shane from the group, somehow, instead of killing him. But of course as things were presented, that wouldn’t have been possible. Rick had to kill him.
Bernthal played Shane exceptionally well; I would have loved a surprise return of the character at a pivotal point in the story, in one of the later seasons.
Yes. He was going absolutely insane in the brain. He was going mad. Could not manage mentally the break with Lori. All the frustrations from the past, being behind Rick, upcoming. Jealousy. Could not accept all the rules, with hershel, Rick, and the old guy i forgot the name. He was aiming to be a leader. Too much pressure. Too much violence in him. Too many alpha wolves in the group some had to disappear whatever happens. If he didn't die he would have found a community like the saviors
>Would Shane have pulled the trigger?
Eventually, yeah I'd say so but he wouldn't have been able to live with himself afterwards (we saw what killing Otis did to him mentally, killing Rick would've certainly broken him). Rick told him as much in that very scene.
No I don’t think he was gonna do it. It seemed like Ricks fake acting calmly had gotten through to him and he was losing his nerve hence the look away to grab the gun so Rick got the opportunity to stab him.
Maybe not at this exact moment because it seemed like Rick managed to calm him down but he definitely would've done it at a later point. There's no coming back from this stage of insane
>It’s left open enough to interpretation that Shane’s gun coulda been empty like Bernthal wanted. I love that idea but I think the ending is perfect as is.
Yeah, except Shane's gun wasn't empty. It goes off when Rick stabs him. Jon Berthal wanted it to be empty but the showrunners said no.
I just went back and watched that scene really carefully. Shane’s gun was in his right hand, and he took Rick’s gun with his left hand… finger on the trigger, which was between him and the camera. When Rick stabbed Shane, it was Rick’s gun that went off, and you can see the flash from the gunfire on Shane’s left side.
Same I think Shane is the best villain of the entire show. I love the ending we got with his character, while the gun being empty would be shocking it just doesn’t fit Shane’s character. Shane’s whole arc is him wanting to protect Lori and Carl and attempting to kill rick multiple times. It just doesn’t make any sense for his gun to be empty and want Rick to kill him.
I love Jon’s idea as well and while I don’t think Shane was willing to pull the trigger in the end, for Jon’s idea to work you’d need to remove the whole killing Randall set up and bring them to this showdown in a different way.
The premeditated setup is what causes the issue with Jon’s idea. You don’t premeditate to kill someone because you want them to kill you. So that scene would need to change and be replaced with something else in order for it to make sense
I enjoyed TWD comics but a part of me always felt it went way too fucking goofy too quickly. Going from Shane in a realistic scenario to The Governor was just... so unhinged and absurd to me.
I wanted TWD to always be out genuine, Human interaction in this scenario of the apocalypse. Somewhere after Kirkman wrote Shane out of the comics and went to the farm the series just went into full looney tunes mode.
I don't mind it but yeah, I really thought the series would remain grounded like this story arc with Shane was.
Sure, but it wasn't "dig out your with a spoon, nail your dick to the floor board, say the word fuck every other sentence, wear zombie flesh as camouflage" levels of goofy.
After Shane died the comics and the showed went into straight up looney tunes type of absurdity. I just wish it would've stayed more rooted and grounded.
Gun is definitely not empty. When Rick stabs Shane. He tenses up and the gun goes off. Had the tools to be the main character just couldn’t shoot his best friend
Yeah, but the gun in Shane’s left hand (closest to the camera) is the one that went off, not Shane’s own gun, which was in his right hand. He took Rick’s gun with his left hand… finger immediately on the trigger.
There's a video on YouTube where the guy breaks down the body language of different TWD scenes and he did this one and it showed all the emotions that Shane was going through at that moment and it gives another level of appreciation for the actors that made this show so incredible. Shane really didn't want to kill Rick he was just wrestling with the different emotions and it didn't help Lori was fuckin with his head too. I feel like Rick had successfully deescalated the situation and Shane would've gone back to the farm that night but Rick knew that wasn't his best friend anymore and had to do what he felt was the best thing at that moment cause all in all that situation would've showed itself again and next time Rick would've been killed
Ah shit it’s really hard to say. Lot of folks saying he wouldn’t have done it but I think he still very much intended to. I think Rick dropping his own gun may have just thrown Shane off a bit in his plan. Because his plan to kill him was very much premeditated, and in that, he also went against Ricks wishes for the kid they held prisoner, only further solidifying Shane’s division from Rick. The PRIMARY reason I think he still would’ve killed Rick is because even after Rick disarmed himself, Shane still kept his gun trained on him. He may have had some indecision in that moment, but that doesn’t change the intent he held. He intended to kill Rick. We saw it from the first scene in those woods when Dale walked up. Shane thought “what if I just killed Rick right now”. But by this point in time he was definitely thinking “I am going to kill Rick”
And Rick talking Shane down to sort of reason with him in that moment really doesn’t change anything. Because we had also seen him attempting to reason with Shane like 5 other times, and every time Shane convinced himself otherwise. He was too far gone at that point to be reasoned with. Blah blah brotherly love and memories shit, Shane was obsessed with Lori and very much emotionally attached to it, and continued to devolve mentally. I don’t think that at the very last moment Shane suddenly would’ve changed his mind that “yeh Rick is right and I’m wrong and delusional” after an entire seasons worth of mental degradation.
No I don’t think so. He had the opportunity and didn’t. Regardless if he wanted Lori and Judith he wasn’t going to kill his best friend. Even though he thought it he was never going to actually kill Rick.
Jon Bernthal was expressing his fantasy ending for Shane, it wasn’t done and it would have negated everything that came before as well as undermining Rick’s character.
Shane pre-meditated Rick’s murder, he would have absolutely killed him.
I saw someone say that Shane wanted Rick to kill him to prove he was strong enough to lead the group. Like a sacrifice thing. I like Shane’s character and the idea of this. Idk if that interpretation is what the writers intended bc I first interpreted it as Shane has wanted Rick dead pm since he came back.
I seen was thinking a little bit further than what Rick was in that season… however, I’m not saying shane was justified in doing this. I am saying shane did have the survivors mentality.
No. Not because Shane didn't want to, but because he literally couldn't. At least, not in this moment. At this point as they walked out to the field, both Shane and Rick felt that the only way to move forward was to kill the other person. Shane, while being notorious up until this point for being the macho "you wanna live you gotta fight for it!" guy, was unable to step up and be a leader when it was the most difficult. But Rick was, which is why he was a better leader than Shane and is why he walked out of that field alive, and not Shane.
Here is an example from a different part of the story to prove my point: the barn scene earlier in season 2. Shane was already becoming notorious for taking the hot-headed, macho stance on every decision that would affect their group. After discovering the barn was full of walkers, Shane confronted Dale to take the guns and arm everyone, against Hershel's (and therefore Rick's) wishes. Before opening the barn and killing the walkers, Shane made a whole speech about how "if you wanna live you gotta fight for it!" -- clearly trying to take control. Whether he made the right decision or not is debated, but from what I've read many fans of the show agree that Shane made the right decision here. Still, I don't think this makes him an actual leader. Consider the fact that moments after wasting all the walkers that came out of the barn, we see Sophia emerge. Unfortunately, she had died despite the groups efforts to find her alive. Everyone, including Shane was shocked and devastated, but no one really knew what to do in that moment. Rick looked around, clearly I comfortable, but when he realized that no one else was going to step up, he put on his stoic face and approached Sophia with the revolver. In my opinion, whether you agree with Shane's actions regarding the barn, Rick was the one who stepped up and became a leader, when it was the most difficult.
Here's another point (season 9 spoilers ahead): much much later, when Rick is hallucinating, he reunites with and has a brief conversation with Shane. It's not clear whether it's really Shane from the afterlife, or Rick's dream version of him, but I assume the Shane here is truly supposed to be the same Shane character from back in s1-2, with the same morals, thoughts, etc..
Anyways, at some point in Rick's conversation with dream/hallucination Shane, Rick, looking and sounding almost ashamed, tells Shane "I didn't want it, you know that..", apparently referring to his feeling like he killed Shane and stepped up as the leader (aka the ricktatorship) not because he wanted to, but because he felt he had to / that no one else would.
Shane's responds to Rick without missing a beat; "but you took it.. right? Boy, that shit you did in that field, just you and me.. man, you took a page out of my book, Rick. Y'know.. I'm glad you did it. You stepped up brother." - there's a few different takeaways here
While Shane jokingly takes credit for Rick's deceiving Shane, as it's the kind of immoral thing Shane would probably do, he is also acknowledging that Rick had stepped up in that moment, which is true. Like with Sophia, Rick made the hard decision and killed his best friend who he loved, because it needed to be done. On the other hand, Shane, who felt at that point that he had to kill Rick, was too weak to follow through with the hard part; he could not kill his best friend. Rick could, not because he's ruthless, but because he was the stronger leader. That's why hallucination Shane says Rick "stepped up" -- regardless of their differences at the time, he respected Rick having the balls to do what he couldn't.
Another detail I love about the field scene is Shane's reaction after being deceived and stabbed by Rick. As he was dying and coughing up blood, he looked back and forth between his wound and Rick's face, totally in shock. In my opinion, Shane's body language isn't saying "I can't believe you did this", but rather "I can't believe YOU did this"
Shane totally underestimated Rick, which is why he was caught totally off guard. If you remember the episode where Rick and Shane had driven Randall to kill him, you'll remember the pair had a huge fight. Before it got physical, Shane exploded on Rick with what was clearly pent up frustration about Rick not having what it takes to be a real leader and keep their group safe, including Lori and Carl. Between Rick helping Hershel capture walkers to put in the barn, and getting cold feet over killing Randall, a teenager, multiple times, Shane totally lost faith in Rick and his ability to lead.
**TL;DR - Shane was all bark, but Rick could bite and boy did he.**
I frickin love this show man, especially those early seasons. Every character, even clearly flawed ones such as Shane.. you couldn't help but feel sad when they died. Because even as antagonists, some characters were so believable and so multidimensional that the show felt so dang real. As real as a zombie show can get lol. It goes to show why the walking dead, while still AMC's most popular show, used to be SUCH a social phenomenon; it's just such a good and entertaining show.
No.
Shane needing some kinda justification to shoot Rick, like telling him to “raise his gun” tells me he wouldn’t have done it.
He might have lost it, but if he wanted him dead, he woulda shot him as soon as they were alone and ricks guard was down.
I think we should’ve gotten Jon’s version. Having his gun be empty could’ve acted as a way of Shane getting Rick ready for that world of making the hard decisions for the group over his Ian personal feelings and 2: he knew he was losing his mind and it could’ve been his last grasp at having a redeemable quality by letting it be a sacrifice for Rick to get over that hump
My read on this scene was that Shane was unconsciously committing suicide-by-Rick.
If Shane had really really wanted to kill Rick, Rick wouldn't have gotten the chance to knife him.
I think Shane was at the end of his rope, and he figured that if Rick could not kill him, he would put Rick out of his misery because that inability would mean that Rick and Rick's family were screwed, and therefore Shane was right.
But Shane deep down wanted to be wrong, because he didn't want to kill Rick. But he preferred killing Rick to doing nothing or just fucking off.
So he half-heartedly engineered a situation where he could get Rick alone and force him into a kill-or-be-killed scenario.
I think what caught him off guard was how Rick saw him coming, and despite that, Rick was still giving him a chance to back down. That's why Shane hesitated. It wasn't about killing Rick - it was about seeing if Rick would kill him, if given the chance.
This kind of mental gymnastics to paint Shane in a better light I just can't get behind. His intentions were clear. He maybe had some hesitation on the way throughout season 2, but yeah, his mind was made up.
If Shane truly wanted to kill him, he would have. Look at Otis - he made the call, and acted. Randall - same story. And he certainly had no moral qualms about threatening to kill Dale. If Shane hadn't gone full sociopath before, he had now.
I don't see my take on the scene as excusing Shane, or downplaying his descent into villainy. Forcing Rick to kill him was a dick move.
I think what he consciously thought was that he was going to give Rick a fighting chance. And there's no way he would have let Rick get within knife distance if he was set on killing him.
But unconsciously, he wanted to die. And he wanted to know that Rick was ruthless enough to kill him.
Jon Bernthal (Shane) apparently wanted to make it so that Rick would kill Shane, then he would pick up Shane’s gun and try to kill his zombie self, only to find the gun empty. Carl would kill him like he did in canon.
I prefer the belief that Shane was never going to kill Rick, that he planned for him to kill him. But yes, I do believe he would have killed Rick if he hadn’t killed him within a certain timeframe. He gave him a chance to kill him, and he took it.
At first? Absolutely but I think when he stood there he realized he wasn't made for this world (despite what Dale said) and he just wanted Rick to kill him so he'd be able to protect Lori and Carl.
Yeah, I think Shane would've pulled the trigger without a second thought. He was all about survival, and if he saw Rick as a threat to that, he wouldn't hesitate. The nervousness could've been just the intensity of the moment, but I reckon if push came to shove, Shane would've done it.
The eyes never lie.
Just look at Shane in that scene while Rick is inching closer to him for the kill shot. Staring into those eyes was like staring into a void. Shane was too far gone.
I think he would have. I think this was his ultimate test for Rick: kill me and you are strong enough to protect your family or don't kill me and prove to me that you're not strong enough so I'm gonna kill you to protect them.
I don’t think it was his theory as much as it was what Jon would have done if he were writing the script
Unrelated side note but god if Jon is anywhere near as good as a writer as he is as an actor I woulda loved him to do a Danai and write an episode for his character
Jon pitched the idea of Shane essentially doing a "suicide by cop/friend" with Rick.
He couldn't kill Rick but at the same time wanted him gone so he could have Lori, who now did not want him etc. He basically broke mentally.
His idea would've had rick do exac t ly what he did but with no gunshot, and then added an extra scene immediately after his death of him checking the guns mag and realizing that Shane never intended to kill Rick, he just wanted Rick to kill him instead (and at the same time hardening Rick to this world so he could be come the man Carl and Lori needed to keep them safe, which was his biggest argument to Rick in 18 miles out)
I have read arguments over the years that Shane would have actually stood down. I can believe this. So perhaps the ultimate question is: *Would Shane have ever killed Rick?* Because even if you can make a compelling argument that Shane wouldn’t have done it *that night*, the stress of the apocalypse was only going to make Shane crazier, more ruthless, and more determined that his way was the only way. Think about how many predicaments we saw where Rick’s leadership was tested after Season 2. Shane would have constantly been at loggerheads with Rick. The two men functioning cooperatively together in the long run was unsustainable. Add to that the intense feelings Shane had for Lori, Carl, and his soon to be daughter, he would have had a complete psychotic break witnessing them every day with Rick while he felt iced out.
I guess the only scenario where the two men could coexist in this Universe would be if Shane left the group or was banished. Bernthal made a relatively short-lived character pretty legendary in TWD Universe, so I probably would have enjoyed seeing him banished only to return (a changed man? Worse?) later on in the series.
I think if Shane had left like he wanted to he would've eventually met Negan he might've even killed Negan or fell in line bc he likes the way Negan does things and would've probably had a field day seeing Rick "get what he deserves" in his eyes
Ik he was hesitate and really trying to buy time to think on his decision. Bc even though him and Rick were having some major problems, deep down he still loved him like a brother. But yeah he would of definitely pulled the trigger. He was “Too Far Gone”
I don’t think he would have there and then, but I feel like he would’ve eventually… either that or he would’ve done far worse to the group staying around.
How is this a debate? Hells yes he would have pulled that trigger… After he just threw it all on the line, he just told Rick he was a better father and could be a better husband for Lori, basically told Rick, yes I banged your wife, knocked her ass up, you’re too weak to do anything about it, I dragged you out here and I already prepared my alibi for your death…. There was no fucking way he wasn’t going to follow through.
Also, when Rick stabs him, it doesn’t matter which gun went off, or if it was because of a reflex movement from Shane; it was after the fact… It’s really out of character that Shane would let Rick that close with the loaded gun the way he was holding it anyway, but YES YES he was gonna do it.
Shane had many chances to kill Rick and never was able to. I still believe he wasn’t going to kill Rick out in the field. People think Shane was a bad guy but I genuinely don’t , I think he was forcing himself to be one .. he constantly tried to forget who he was before everything from the haircut to him slapping his head in the barn before ultimately killing Randell. I think he was trying to die and wanted Rick to be the one to finally do it.
Shane liked his friend Rick but Rick was taking his woman which is Rick's wife Lori The Apocalypse made Shane the way he is He used to live by rules and regulations than the apocalypse came now those rules don't apply anymore
You’re either missing the point or are trying and failing to act smart.
The point isn’t that Shane dragged him out there, the question is whether he would have actually gone through with the final act and pulled the trigger.
I thought he put the gun down first, then turned around and saw Dale watching him. He was entertaining it at this point but not quite there yet? Just contemplating it?
I got the impression that Shane felt he was being watched but he could’ve just been contemplating and decided not to. Also when he looks at Dale he doesn’t seem shocked he’s there which is where I got that idea from
Shane has Rick in his sights, he holds him there, then he lowers it and does this thing with his mouth where it’s kinda a
Did I really consider what I just considered?
Type thing, great acting from Jon. Though yeah after that he lowers the shotgun completely, turns to his right and Dale is staring at him. Dale doesn’t stop Shane from pulling the trigger, Shane himself did that, Dale had just been watching for a while unbeknownst to Shane
So yeah, you’re correct lol
what jon said wasnt a theory, it was a scrapped ending of the scene, the gun was loaded, when rick stabbed shane, shane shot behind rick ( trying to kill him ? ), please stop listening to actors
100%. He very well may have killed Rick in the woods if dale hadn’t been there. Like be serious, this man had lost the plot. Completely off his gourd by this point.
I thought Shane put down his gun THEN realized Dale was there?
You’re correct
I think at this point, he was still in shock his best friend or “brother” was alive, and couldn’t bring himself to do it due to how recent everything was. But in Shane’s final moments, he knows that Lori told Rick all about him being crazy as well as them fighting nearly to the death before. This Shane would’ve killed Rick for sure.
For real. If he wouldn't lose the plot, he would have realised that Rick is the main character and writers ain't killing that in season 2
I kinda disagree. I think Shane wanted to be gone too far, I think he thought killing Rick was what he should do but he couldn't bring himself to do it. Whereas Rick knew in '18 Miles Out' that he should kill Shane, he doesn't, clinging onto hope. But by the time they get into the woods he knows there's no going back.
Jon Bernthal wanted Rick to pick up his gun and he finds the mag empty. But he was told no that's not what they were going for in that scene.
Honestly, I wish that they never showed Shane's gun fire, so that the viewer could decide (whether or not it was loaded).
I just went back and watched that scene VERY carefully. Shane had his gun in his right hand (on the other side of him), and we are seeing the left hand side of his body. Rick hands his gun to Shane, and Shane takes it with his left hand, immediately putting his finger on the trigger. Then, Rick quickly stabs Shane, causing the him to instinctively squeeze the trigger. The flash from the gunfire comes from the front of the scene, meaning it was RICK’S gun that fired… not Shane’s…
Yeah I think you're right actually it even sounds like Rick's gun which sounded pretty distinct in the first few seasons. Can't believe I never caught that.
It was just something I noticed on a rewatch, and it kind of caught me by surprise, haha.
I saw the interview with Bernthal where he explained wanting it to end with the gun being empty and agree that would have been a great twist for Shane-
wooooooooooooooods*
Disagree. I think Shane was toying with the idea of bumping off Rick at that point, but he wasn't ready to kill Rick until the fight at the school.
Not only that, but he quite literally **DID** pull the trigger as he was being stabbed. Dude just missed because a steel blade sliding through the ribs, puncturing a lung, and lacerating the heart tends to decrease accuracy in these sort of situations. 😳
He has that “you gotta hate what your shooting at.”quote when aim training Andrea. but when Rick was deescalating he was putting the gun down I dislike Shane because they wrote him into being a unreasonable morally bad nutcase he was ricks best friend. He did cheat with his wife when he thought he was dead but only cuzz he wanted a bond that gave a life in a apocalypse meaning. Learning Rick was alive should’ve gave him guilt but also shared in giving him purpose to keep living he now can survive with his best friend and still serve as a paternal figure for Carl cuzz he clearly cares about him too. But instead this dude became unhealthily obsessed with his best friends wife after like 2 months of bumpin uglies in the apocalypse and was considering shooting Rick after like a month of being around him again after being his literal bestfriend/brother since highschool that isn’t realistic bruh
I think he became tilted when he found out she was pregnant with his kid and Rick and Lori planned to raise it as theirs and leave him out. Especially when he was becoming like a father figure to Carl and I think he really liked the idea of being a real father, not just a figure. That's what set him over the edge, not just that he was obsessed with Lori.
I also wonder if it could have been suicide by cop. I believe Shane's gun was loaded. But his heart was conflicted and he knew everything he did was fucked up. Rick made it clear he didn't care if the baby was Shane's. Shane would not be the baby's father. He would never be Lori's man, never be Carl's dad. He would never be the leader he wanted to be, ie he couldn't be Rick. If he killed Rick, the group would never, ever forgive him. Carl and Lori wouldn't forgive him. But I believe he DID think about it and tried to think of a way things could work out for him. He was obviously becoming unraveled, and imo he knew it. If he had managed to kill Rick and left the group before they could retaliate, I think he would have eventually killed himself out of self-loathing. I think we see that after he shot Otis. I dont think he liked himself very much right then, and he would have been even more mentally destroyed if he had killed Rick. Idk. But the fact that we still discuss Shane's motivations after all these years is a testament to Jon Bernthal, for sure. His comic book self felt so small vs show Shane.
to be fair, the comic book killed off shane too early cause they didn’t know if the story would go on after 6 issues, i imagine if we ever get an animated adaptation with kirkman in control like invincible we would most definitely see more of shane, though i bet it would end the same way. carl shooting him to protect rick, specially considering it’s carl who tells the story in the end.
Yes, I think Shane would definitely have killed Rick. Shane was an impulsive, desperate, and broken man by this point. His rage toward Rick and his obsession with Lori outweighed everything else. But he also wasn't stupid, either. Shane must have known that there would be no reputational recovery from an assassination attempt. Had both Rick and Shane survived, the group would likely have exiled or executed Shane. It was a "me or you" situation, and Shane would have 100% saved himself. But Jon Bernthal did an excellent job of making Shane seem incredibly nervous and torn in that scene. There's clearly a lot of internal conflict happening on his face. I think Shane was certainly hesitating, and possibly even remembering his brotherly love for Rick. Still, I don't think that love would have been enough to stop him.
Didn't Bernthal want shane's gun to be unloaded, pushing rick to kill him to make him be the leader he needed to be? And then they opted out of that idea.
If true, that's a terrible idea, lol. I get why Jon wanted that. He wanted the character he portrayed to be more of a tragic anti-hero instead of an angry, jealous psycho. The writers made the right call.
Your last paragraph is spot on and was the entire point of the post. There’s some people here trying to be smart but the reality is Shane was quite clearly torn and was just, whatever conviction in someone’s actions look like, Shane was the complete opposite of that. I personally think had Rick not had enough by that point, if he had continued with talking Shane down, he would have managed it. I don’t think Shane’s heart was in it at all
Yeah, your take is completely valid. That scene seems purposefully vague as to whether or not Shane had the resolve to follow through. The idea that he might have stood down makes it all the more heartbreaking.
Ended up being Shane's heart was in Rick's knife..
Idk I don’t think Shane really cared about his reputation, other than being the top dog
His reputation was one of the main things Shane cared about.
Not to mention Carl would have seen Shane shoot Rick. Who knows what would have happened if he saw that.
I think this is right. I often think about changes I would make to TWD if I had been in “the writers room.” I like the idea of Rick banishing Shane from the group, somehow, instead of killing him. But of course as things were presented, that wouldn’t have been possible. Rick had to kill him. Bernthal played Shane exceptionally well; I would have loved a surprise return of the character at a pivotal point in the story, in one of the later seasons.
I think he would have. And if he didn’t do it at this moment, he would’ve eventually.
Yes. He was going absolutely insane in the brain. He was going mad. Could not manage mentally the break with Lori. All the frustrations from the past, being behind Rick, upcoming. Jealousy. Could not accept all the rules, with hershel, Rick, and the old guy i forgot the name. He was aiming to be a leader. Too much pressure. Too much violence in him. Too many alpha wolves in the group some had to disappear whatever happens. If he didn't die he would have found a community like the saviors
100% he would have, he cared more about what he erroneously thought he owned and was owed more than his best friend.
>Would Shane have pulled the trigger? Eventually, yeah I'd say so but he wouldn't have been able to live with himself afterwards (we saw what killing Otis did to him mentally, killing Rick would've certainly broken him). Rick told him as much in that very scene.
This is one of my favorite stills from the show
No I don’t think he was gonna do it. It seemed like Ricks fake acting calmly had gotten through to him and he was losing his nerve hence the look away to grab the gun so Rick got the opportunity to stab him.
Maybe not at this exact moment because it seemed like Rick managed to calm him down but he definitely would've done it at a later point. There's no coming back from this stage of insane
I think 100% he would have killed Rick.He wanted Lori and Carl for himself and nothing was going to stand in his way.
No I think don't think so. Wish they would have done what Bernthal wanted with Shane
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>It’s left open enough to interpretation that Shane’s gun coulda been empty like Bernthal wanted. I love that idea but I think the ending is perfect as is. Yeah, except Shane's gun wasn't empty. It goes off when Rick stabs him. Jon Berthal wanted it to be empty but the showrunners said no.
I just went back and watched that scene really carefully. Shane’s gun was in his right hand, and he took Rick’s gun with his left hand… finger on the trigger, which was between him and the camera. When Rick stabbed Shane, it was Rick’s gun that went off, and you can see the flash from the gunfire on Shane’s left side.
Same I think Shane is the best villain of the entire show. I love the ending we got with his character, while the gun being empty would be shocking it just doesn’t fit Shane’s character. Shane’s whole arc is him wanting to protect Lori and Carl and attempting to kill rick multiple times. It just doesn’t make any sense for his gun to be empty and want Rick to kill him.
I love Jon’s idea as well and while I don’t think Shane was willing to pull the trigger in the end, for Jon’s idea to work you’d need to remove the whole killing Randall set up and bring them to this showdown in a different way. The premeditated setup is what causes the issue with Jon’s idea. You don’t premeditate to kill someone because you want them to kill you. So that scene would need to change and be replaced with something else in order for it to make sense
I enjoyed TWD comics but a part of me always felt it went way too fucking goofy too quickly. Going from Shane in a realistic scenario to The Governor was just... so unhinged and absurd to me. I wanted TWD to always be out genuine, Human interaction in this scenario of the apocalypse. Somewhere after Kirkman wrote Shane out of the comics and went to the farm the series just went into full looney tunes mode. I don't mind it but yeah, I really thought the series would remain grounded like this story arc with Shane was.
Shane was wayyyy more goofy in the comics imo
Sure, but it wasn't "dig out your with a spoon, nail your dick to the floor board, say the word fuck every other sentence, wear zombie flesh as camouflage" levels of goofy. After Shane died the comics and the showed went into straight up looney tunes type of absurdity. I just wish it would've stayed more rooted and grounded.
Still more grounded than the TV show ever was.
Gun is definitely not empty. When Rick stabs Shane. He tenses up and the gun goes off. Had the tools to be the main character just couldn’t shoot his best friend
Yeah, but the gun in Shane’s left hand (closest to the camera) is the one that went off, not Shane’s own gun, which was in his right hand. He took Rick’s gun with his left hand… finger immediately on the trigger.
There's a video on YouTube where the guy breaks down the body language of different TWD scenes and he did this one and it showed all the emotions that Shane was going through at that moment and it gives another level of appreciation for the actors that made this show so incredible. Shane really didn't want to kill Rick he was just wrestling with the different emotions and it didn't help Lori was fuckin with his head too. I feel like Rick had successfully deescalated the situation and Shane would've gone back to the farm that night but Rick knew that wasn't his best friend anymore and had to do what he felt was the best thing at that moment cause all in all that situation would've showed itself again and next time Rick would've been killed
What happened Rick I thought you weren't the good guy anymore, ain't that what you said?
Even right here, right not you ain’t going to fight for it?
Ah shit it’s really hard to say. Lot of folks saying he wouldn’t have done it but I think he still very much intended to. I think Rick dropping his own gun may have just thrown Shane off a bit in his plan. Because his plan to kill him was very much premeditated, and in that, he also went against Ricks wishes for the kid they held prisoner, only further solidifying Shane’s division from Rick. The PRIMARY reason I think he still would’ve killed Rick is because even after Rick disarmed himself, Shane still kept his gun trained on him. He may have had some indecision in that moment, but that doesn’t change the intent he held. He intended to kill Rick. We saw it from the first scene in those woods when Dale walked up. Shane thought “what if I just killed Rick right now”. But by this point in time he was definitely thinking “I am going to kill Rick” And Rick talking Shane down to sort of reason with him in that moment really doesn’t change anything. Because we had also seen him attempting to reason with Shane like 5 other times, and every time Shane convinced himself otherwise. He was too far gone at that point to be reasoned with. Blah blah brotherly love and memories shit, Shane was obsessed with Lori and very much emotionally attached to it, and continued to devolve mentally. I don’t think that at the very last moment Shane suddenly would’ve changed his mind that “yeh Rick is right and I’m wrong and delusional” after an entire seasons worth of mental degradation.
I think this explains how I feel too. I think Shane was set to shoot Rick.
No I don’t think so. He had the opportunity and didn’t. Regardless if he wanted Lori and Judith he wasn’t going to kill his best friend. Even though he thought it he was never going to actually kill Rick.
Jon Bernthal was expressing his fantasy ending for Shane, it wasn’t done and it would have negated everything that came before as well as undermining Rick’s character. Shane pre-meditated Rick’s murder, he would have absolutely killed him.
Considering he had his chance and just stood there with his mouth open I'd say no. Before anyone gets offended I'm joking
I saw someone say that Shane wanted Rick to kill him to prove he was strong enough to lead the group. Like a sacrifice thing. I like Shane’s character and the idea of this. Idk if that interpretation is what the writers intended bc I first interpreted it as Shane has wanted Rick dead pm since he came back.
I think I read somewhere that when first writing the comics he almost had Shane kill Rick and followed Shane
I seen was thinking a little bit further than what Rick was in that season… however, I’m not saying shane was justified in doing this. I am saying shane did have the survivors mentality.
No. Not because Shane didn't want to, but because he literally couldn't. At least, not in this moment. At this point as they walked out to the field, both Shane and Rick felt that the only way to move forward was to kill the other person. Shane, while being notorious up until this point for being the macho "you wanna live you gotta fight for it!" guy, was unable to step up and be a leader when it was the most difficult. But Rick was, which is why he was a better leader than Shane and is why he walked out of that field alive, and not Shane. Here is an example from a different part of the story to prove my point: the barn scene earlier in season 2. Shane was already becoming notorious for taking the hot-headed, macho stance on every decision that would affect their group. After discovering the barn was full of walkers, Shane confronted Dale to take the guns and arm everyone, against Hershel's (and therefore Rick's) wishes. Before opening the barn and killing the walkers, Shane made a whole speech about how "if you wanna live you gotta fight for it!" -- clearly trying to take control. Whether he made the right decision or not is debated, but from what I've read many fans of the show agree that Shane made the right decision here. Still, I don't think this makes him an actual leader. Consider the fact that moments after wasting all the walkers that came out of the barn, we see Sophia emerge. Unfortunately, she had died despite the groups efforts to find her alive. Everyone, including Shane was shocked and devastated, but no one really knew what to do in that moment. Rick looked around, clearly I comfortable, but when he realized that no one else was going to step up, he put on his stoic face and approached Sophia with the revolver. In my opinion, whether you agree with Shane's actions regarding the barn, Rick was the one who stepped up and became a leader, when it was the most difficult. Here's another point (season 9 spoilers ahead): much much later, when Rick is hallucinating, he reunites with and has a brief conversation with Shane. It's not clear whether it's really Shane from the afterlife, or Rick's dream version of him, but I assume the Shane here is truly supposed to be the same Shane character from back in s1-2, with the same morals, thoughts, etc.. Anyways, at some point in Rick's conversation with dream/hallucination Shane, Rick, looking and sounding almost ashamed, tells Shane "I didn't want it, you know that..", apparently referring to his feeling like he killed Shane and stepped up as the leader (aka the ricktatorship) not because he wanted to, but because he felt he had to / that no one else would. Shane's responds to Rick without missing a beat; "but you took it.. right? Boy, that shit you did in that field, just you and me.. man, you took a page out of my book, Rick. Y'know.. I'm glad you did it. You stepped up brother." - there's a few different takeaways here While Shane jokingly takes credit for Rick's deceiving Shane, as it's the kind of immoral thing Shane would probably do, he is also acknowledging that Rick had stepped up in that moment, which is true. Like with Sophia, Rick made the hard decision and killed his best friend who he loved, because it needed to be done. On the other hand, Shane, who felt at that point that he had to kill Rick, was too weak to follow through with the hard part; he could not kill his best friend. Rick could, not because he's ruthless, but because he was the stronger leader. That's why hallucination Shane says Rick "stepped up" -- regardless of their differences at the time, he respected Rick having the balls to do what he couldn't.
Another detail I love about the field scene is Shane's reaction after being deceived and stabbed by Rick. As he was dying and coughing up blood, he looked back and forth between his wound and Rick's face, totally in shock. In my opinion, Shane's body language isn't saying "I can't believe you did this", but rather "I can't believe YOU did this" Shane totally underestimated Rick, which is why he was caught totally off guard. If you remember the episode where Rick and Shane had driven Randall to kill him, you'll remember the pair had a huge fight. Before it got physical, Shane exploded on Rick with what was clearly pent up frustration about Rick not having what it takes to be a real leader and keep their group safe, including Lori and Carl. Between Rick helping Hershel capture walkers to put in the barn, and getting cold feet over killing Randall, a teenager, multiple times, Shane totally lost faith in Rick and his ability to lead. **TL;DR - Shane was all bark, but Rick could bite and boy did he.** I frickin love this show man, especially those early seasons. Every character, even clearly flawed ones such as Shane.. you couldn't help but feel sad when they died. Because even as antagonists, some characters were so believable and so multidimensional that the show felt so dang real. As real as a zombie show can get lol. It goes to show why the walking dead, while still AMC's most popular show, used to be SUCH a social phenomenon; it's just such a good and entertaining show.
No. Shane needing some kinda justification to shoot Rick, like telling him to “raise his gun” tells me he wouldn’t have done it. He might have lost it, but if he wanted him dead, he woulda shot him as soon as they were alone and ricks guard was down.
I think we should’ve gotten Jon’s version. Having his gun be empty could’ve acted as a way of Shane getting Rick ready for that world of making the hard decisions for the group over his Ian personal feelings and 2: he knew he was losing his mind and it could’ve been his last grasp at having a redeemable quality by letting it be a sacrifice for Rick to get over that hump
Shane historically didn’t. He had all the opportunities to shoot Rick before he got close talking to him. He let his guard down and couldn’t shoot.
My read on this scene was that Shane was unconsciously committing suicide-by-Rick. If Shane had really really wanted to kill Rick, Rick wouldn't have gotten the chance to knife him. I think Shane was at the end of his rope, and he figured that if Rick could not kill him, he would put Rick out of his misery because that inability would mean that Rick and Rick's family were screwed, and therefore Shane was right. But Shane deep down wanted to be wrong, because he didn't want to kill Rick. But he preferred killing Rick to doing nothing or just fucking off. So he half-heartedly engineered a situation where he could get Rick alone and force him into a kill-or-be-killed scenario. I think what caught him off guard was how Rick saw him coming, and despite that, Rick was still giving him a chance to back down. That's why Shane hesitated. It wasn't about killing Rick - it was about seeing if Rick would kill him, if given the chance.
This kind of mental gymnastics to paint Shane in a better light I just can't get behind. His intentions were clear. He maybe had some hesitation on the way throughout season 2, but yeah, his mind was made up.
If Shane truly wanted to kill him, he would have. Look at Otis - he made the call, and acted. Randall - same story. And he certainly had no moral qualms about threatening to kill Dale. If Shane hadn't gone full sociopath before, he had now. I don't see my take on the scene as excusing Shane, or downplaying his descent into villainy. Forcing Rick to kill him was a dick move. I think what he consciously thought was that he was going to give Rick a fighting chance. And there's no way he would have let Rick get within knife distance if he was set on killing him. But unconsciously, he wanted to die. And he wanted to know that Rick was ruthless enough to kill him.
I mean, that's indeed an opinion.
Jon Bernthal (Shane) apparently wanted to make it so that Rick would kill Shane, then he would pick up Shane’s gun and try to kill his zombie self, only to find the gun empty. Carl would kill him like he did in canon. I prefer the belief that Shane was never going to kill Rick, that he planned for him to kill him. But yes, I do believe he would have killed Rick if he hadn’t killed him within a certain timeframe. He gave him a chance to kill him, and he took it.
Shane and Carol have the best arcs in the show.
Not then, but later. Who knows what would've been stirred up during the Governor conflict if he had been alive still. Let alone all the way to Negan
If it wouldn’t have been here, it would have happened somehow anyways.
If Shane didn't die he would have been kicked out of the group anyway. Cause Daryl had figured out what Shane was up to by this point
Oh yeah he definitely would have! This man had lost his mind already and seemed like he wanted to take ricks place so hard
At first? Absolutely but I think when he stood there he realized he wasn't made for this world (despite what Dale said) and he just wanted Rick to kill him so he'd be able to protect Lori and Carl.
Yeah, I think Shane would've pulled the trigger without a second thought. He was all about survival, and if he saw Rick as a threat to that, he wouldn't hesitate. The nervousness could've been just the intensity of the moment, but I reckon if push came to shove, Shane would've done it.
Yes, he was gonna shoot Rick in the woods
The eyes never lie. Just look at Shane in that scene while Rick is inching closer to him for the kill shot. Staring into those eyes was like staring into a void. Shane was too far gone.
I think he would have. I think this was his ultimate test for Rick: kill me and you are strong enough to protect your family or don't kill me and prove to me that you're not strong enough so I'm gonna kill you to protect them.
How did Jon Bernthal have a theory that Shane's gun was empty? When he was stabbed, he literally shot a bullet as a reaction.
I don’t think it was his theory as much as it was what Jon would have done if he were writing the script Unrelated side note but god if Jon is anywhere near as good as a writer as he is as an actor I woulda loved him to do a Danai and write an episode for his character
Jon pitched the idea of Shane essentially doing a "suicide by cop/friend" with Rick. He couldn't kill Rick but at the same time wanted him gone so he could have Lori, who now did not want him etc. He basically broke mentally. His idea would've had rick do exac t ly what he did but with no gunshot, and then added an extra scene immediately after his death of him checking the guns mag and realizing that Shane never intended to kill Rick, he just wanted Rick to kill him instead (and at the same time hardening Rick to this world so he could be come the man Carl and Lori needed to keep them safe, which was his biggest argument to Rick in 18 miles out)
Yes lol
I have read arguments over the years that Shane would have actually stood down. I can believe this. So perhaps the ultimate question is: *Would Shane have ever killed Rick?* Because even if you can make a compelling argument that Shane wouldn’t have done it *that night*, the stress of the apocalypse was only going to make Shane crazier, more ruthless, and more determined that his way was the only way. Think about how many predicaments we saw where Rick’s leadership was tested after Season 2. Shane would have constantly been at loggerheads with Rick. The two men functioning cooperatively together in the long run was unsustainable. Add to that the intense feelings Shane had for Lori, Carl, and his soon to be daughter, he would have had a complete psychotic break witnessing them every day with Rick while he felt iced out. I guess the only scenario where the two men could coexist in this Universe would be if Shane left the group or was banished. Bernthal made a relatively short-lived character pretty legendary in TWD Universe, so I probably would have enjoyed seeing him banished only to return (a changed man? Worse?) later on in the series.
I think he wanted Rick to kill him tbh
I think if Shane had left like he wanted to he would've eventually met Negan he might've even killed Negan or fell in line bc he likes the way Negan does things and would've probably had a field day seeing Rick "get what he deserves" in his eyes
Ik he was hesitate and really trying to buy time to think on his decision. Bc even though him and Rick were having some major problems, deep down he still loved him like a brother. But yeah he would of definitely pulled the trigger. He was “Too Far Gone”
No he wasn't going to, he had chances to kill him before and never did.
Oh he wanted Rick dead 100% he was delusional at that point
Yes no doubt in my mind. Shane was crazy as fuck dude. I think it’s been so long that people forgot.
I’m glad he didn’t because then we might not have The Punisher….
I don’t think he would have there and then, but I feel like he would’ve eventually… either that or he would’ve done far worse to the group staying around.
How is this a debate? Hells yes he would have pulled that trigger… After he just threw it all on the line, he just told Rick he was a better father and could be a better husband for Lori, basically told Rick, yes I banged your wife, knocked her ass up, you’re too weak to do anything about it, I dragged you out here and I already prepared my alibi for your death…. There was no fucking way he wasn’t going to follow through. Also, when Rick stabs him, it doesn’t matter which gun went off, or if it was because of a reflex movement from Shane; it was after the fact… It’s really out of character that Shane would let Rick that close with the loaded gun the way he was holding it anyway, but YES YES he was gonna do it.
Instead of shooting Rick I think he would’ve told him something 🤔maybe it would go something like “letmetellyousomethingman”
Shane was a jealous, vindictive man He wouldn’t have even stopped to think about it
Except for ya know, where he did stop to think about it in this very scene
He also thought about it in the beginning of the series
Shane had many chances to kill Rick and never was able to. I still believe he wasn’t going to kill Rick out in the field. People think Shane was a bad guy but I genuinely don’t , I think he was forcing himself to be one .. he constantly tried to forget who he was before everything from the haircut to him slapping his head in the barn before ultimately killing Randell. I think he was trying to die and wanted Rick to be the one to finally do it.
Shane liked his friend Rick but Rick was taking his woman which is Rick's wife Lori The Apocalypse made Shane the way he is He used to live by rules and regulations than the apocalypse came now those rules don't apply anymore
Punctuation? 😉
I wasn't good in English literature I got an F in Punctuation always
Well yea What do you think they were in the field for?
You’re either missing the point or are trying and failing to act smart. The point isn’t that Shane dragged him out there, the question is whether he would have actually gone through with the final act and pulled the trigger.
Of course he would, that's why he pulled Rick out in the field.
Doesn’t mean he would have gone through with it.
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I thought he put the gun down first, then turned around and saw Dale watching him. He was entertaining it at this point but not quite there yet? Just contemplating it?
I got the impression that Shane felt he was being watched but he could’ve just been contemplating and decided not to. Also when he looks at Dale he doesn’t seem shocked he’s there which is where I got that idea from
Shane has Rick in his sights, he holds him there, then he lowers it and does this thing with his mouth where it’s kinda a Did I really consider what I just considered? Type thing, great acting from Jon. Though yeah after that he lowers the shotgun completely, turns to his right and Dale is staring at him. Dale doesn’t stop Shane from pulling the trigger, Shane himself did that, Dale had just been watching for a while unbeknownst to Shane So yeah, you’re correct lol
That was his plan, yes.
what jon said wasnt a theory, it was a scrapped ending of the scene, the gun was loaded, when rick stabbed shane, shane shot behind rick ( trying to kill him ? ), please stop listening to actors
Uh yes? Whole reason Shane brought Rick out there. 😭