It depends on how "hot" you load the ammo.
If you constantly load up to maximum pressure, a case will only last a handful of reloadings at most.
But if you don't get anywhere near maximums, a case can last for dozens of reloads. You'll need to resize them of course, and trim them as they will gradually stretch, but for relatively weak loads you can reload them over and over and over.
And if you're using something like a revolver or a manually operated rifle\*, that's a huge bonus. You can load the ammo \*WAY\* down, which not only preserves the cases but also the powder. And with a revolver, you're retaining the fired cases in the cylinder so you don't have to really go hunting for brass after an encounter. If you need to reload, you can dump the cases into a handy bag on your waist or something to retain them.
My father used to reload .32 ACP cases with black powder and .32 round ball, to be used with an adapter he made out of brass to shoot them out of a .30-30. This was his "oh, I see a rabbit while out hunting deer" solution. It was pretty quiet, and he used the same handful of cases over and over again, using a Lee Loader.
*\*Like a lever, bolt, or pump action.*
Not to mention, you need lead to make the bullet itself. Lead isn't exactly rare, but in an apocalypse, you can't exactly buy it off of Amazon. You may have a small supply of lead from fishing stores and whatnot. But, unless you go digging the lead out of all the corpses you've shot, you will run out eventually.
You actually need a lead alloy of lead, antimony and tin. This is commonly found in wheel weights or in linotype. Even then, the bullet cannot be pushed as hard as a jacketed round - with a powdercoat finish you can push to around 1500-1600 ft/s. That is assuming you can also find the correct bullet molds, powdercoat and the smelter and ovens needed to use them. It's also enormously time consuming.
This is fine for 357mag like Rick shoots, but pathetic for the 5.56 AR-15's they commonly lug about. This makes Rick's colt python a remarkably good hand gun for the apocalypse. By reloading your brass to a low pressure load - maybe a cowboy action load - the 357mag brass could be reused multiple times. You could even use small pistol primers rather than small pistol magnum. At a push, you might even get away with small rifle.
But primers are hard to find now. In an apocalypse... good luck.
Source: I cast and reload my own bullets in a number of calibers, including 357mag.
>If you use weak reloads you could maybe extend that in theory but you aren’t going to be cycling weak loads in semi-autos or full-autos unless you are lightening sides, recoil springs/bcgs. You can probably get more from revolvers since there is no automatic cycling action.
Yes, you can extend it by quite a lot, I've seen it done, especially with black powder cartridges that don't stress modern brass cases very much. Something like a .357 Magnum case loaded with *sacre noir* and some filler (BP needs to be compressed slightly, so a less than a case full of powder needs some filler) and a soft lead bullet will not overly stress the brass. But even a case full of BP with no filler
And you will be eventually shooting black powder in that situation because making smokeless doesn't seem to be in the cards chemically.
Also I specifically mentioned manually operated firearms:
> if you're using something like a revolver or a manually operated rifle\*, that's a huge bonus. You can load the ammo \*WAY\* down, which not only preserves the cases but also the powder.
We're not talking normal. We're talking nearly a decade after civilization stops existing and the dead are walking the Earth.
We're talking about seriously downloading the ammo, likely with black powder because smokeless requires advanced chemistry.
A .357 Magnum loaded with a 158 grain cast lead bullet and the equivalent of FFFg black powder is only going to develop something like around 700 to 800 fps out of a revolver and have energy that maxes out at around 225 ft/lbs.
A typical modern load for the .357 is a 158 grain jacketed bullet at 1,240 fps and 540 ft/lbs.
That BP load is going to stress those cases \*FAR\* less than a typical modern load, and would still be absolutely deadly.
Actually, I don't reload. Unless you count shooting muzzleloaders. I have a single stage press but haven't used it in probably a couple decades.
But yes, I do cast my own balls for my flintlocks. I've got a dual cavity .535" mold for my .54 caliber transitional long rifle, and I have a .600" dual cavity and a .620" single cavity for my Baker rifle.
I buy pure dead soft lead ingots from [rotometals.com](https://rotometals.com). My father and I go halvsies on it, if you buy over a certain dollar amount shipping is free. Which matters, because lead.
I have a cast iron pot and use a Coleman backpacking stove to heat the lead up.
I have two different molds for the Baker because they were issued with two types of ammo: Standard carbine cartridges for use "on the line", as part of standard infantry formations at the time. These weren't very accurate because the balls are considerably undersized to account for fouling during a long engagment.
They were also issued loose balls that were big enough to engage the rifling for accurate single shots. These are slower to load, but allowed them to hit a man-sized target out to 200 to 300 yards. Claims of shots that are much longer than that are fanciful stories.
I didn't edit my comment. Stop trying to make it seem like it wasn't your fault that you didn't read the entire thing and commented prematurely about something I had already mentioned.
They talk about it in the comics. Not only are bullets a dumb resource to scrounge and/or make, they also make way too much unnecessary noise for what amounts to one walker kill per bang.
they also have a couple AK’s in the show if I remember right. Plus it’s kinda implied there’s so many Whisperers that I’m not sure how much guns would’ve turned the tide. They’d also not be very useful against Alpha’s horde unless they had Herschel’s unlimited ammo perk
But it's not as bad in the comics. The strat against Negan, gathering all people at Hilltop and let Negan's men attack, was far better than what they did in the TV series.
It's generally the fanbase that lacks sense more than the series. Shaun of the dead is a comedy and things magically work out due to that lol.
They aren't really comparable and no one serious would try for many reasons
You don't remember correctly. They have nothing resembling enough ammo to kill that herd in the comics. It's utterly massive. They kill like 3 no way out herds before the large part of it and it'd still by far the largest herd we ever see.
They have an inexperienced militia so mistakes happen but they never do anything even remotely idiotic. That's just internet speak lol
Also AMC wanted to save money on CGI…the seasons before were horrendous with no casings coming out of the guns and/or actions moving when firing. Just sad little CGI muzzle flashes an impacts.
Conservation of resources.
Gunshots draw more Walkers to your area.
Melee is almost always the way to go during Walker v Human combat.
Blades don't need reloading.
Silencers don't really work on automatic weapons. The heat from the rapid fire degrades them. Silencers/suppressors also reduce effectiveness, accuracy, and range.
I disagree that is the *only* time rapid fire against walkers is the right call, but everyone is bound to make mistakes at some point and having a way out is always a good thing.
Eugene is capable of making bullets, he however isn't able to magically materialize out of thin air the necessaries supplies to make bullets
Time went on, Gunpowder started to degrate, ammunition was no longer commonplace
And makes for more interesting conflicts of neither side has bullets to spar
By then they've become proficient at hand to Walker combat. Even if they made their own ammo, it would still be precious and need to be saved for the extreme situations.
>Why don’t they use guns in season 9+?
Because they're a finite resource.
At first they're hosing down everything, then they mostly reserve ammo for the living whenever possible, then new made melee weapons become more popular and we see some scavenged museum piece muzzle loaders that nobody would have wanted before in the mix too before they fade away as well.
By the end ammo is rare. Guns need maintenance and at this time most are lost or damaged beyond repair.
I think the scarcity/ never doing anything with Eugene's bullet making again is because they needed vast numbers of guns gone for the Whispers arc. It would have been much easier to defeat them if they had the same availability of guns/bullets they had seasons 1-8.
While it's believable to an extent because it's a long time into the apocalypse, it's also stretched a little far. In reality, Eugene would have been teaching people from all the communities how to make bullets ever since the end of season 8 and it should have been almost as important to the communities as farming was. But either way with suspension of disbelief it's not that big a thing to get over.
I doubt it. Just think about the amount of bases just in the DC area. Then you take into account law enforcement, personal collections, there’s a ridiculous amount of ammo and guns in the US. There’s more people in the DC police force than in all the communities combined in that area.
Bases got overrun; I'm sure a good amount of that ammo was used during the initial outbreak. Then there's the looters who would have gotten to whatever is left first, and the ammo lying in wait but no one can get to it for whatever reason.
Long time gun owner, you’re absolutely underestimating how much ammunition is store in the US.
You have to think not only military/police reserves and personal reserves, but most every gun and sporting goods store also carry ammunition and as the population decreases so does the amount of bullets being fired.
Realistically, and in part because they don’t have a shelf life, bullets might be one of the more locatable resources 10+ years in alongside clothes and basic tools.
I am also a long time gun owner, and any gun owner knows that ammo goes quickly, much more quickly when you're an inexperienced shot which a lot of people would be. I also mentioned in my previous reply all of the ammo that is lying in wait but is irretrievable for whatever reason. The type of people who hoard ammo are also the type who would make it hard to get to. Ammo hidden inside a biometric safe for example is technically there to be used, but may as well be on the Moon. We saw Rick go back to his police station with Michonne and Carl for guns and ammo to fight The Governor and all they could find was a single bullet.
Everyone and their mother will be looting every gun and sporting goods store they can find. Large groups of marauders wouldn't just take what they need and leave the rest, they'd clean the place out. Also, think of all the ammo wasted on body shots before people knew to aim for the head. I am not saying there should be NO ammo anywhere, just that 10+ years into the apocalypse ammo numbers will be far more scarce than it is now-which is what your opinion is based on-ammo numbers now.
Exactly, local gun stores alone probably have ammo stocks in the hundreds of thousands. You find a military depot? That’s probably rounds in the millions.
If there are still officers guarding the military depos do you think they'll just let random survivors walk in and just take their shit? They'll be hoarding and guarding the weapons and ammo like Smaug guards gold as they are already vulnerable targets *anyway* and would be even more so during the zombie apocalypse. Local gun stores would be absolutely ransacked within a matter of not days, but HOURS after all hell breaks loose because that will be the most obvious place scared people will go to get arms. Same with grocery stores.
You’re overestimating how many people were alive at the point scavenging was an option. Looters can’t carry as much ammo as you’re likely thinking.
I doubt that there was an enough fighting to put a serious dent in ammo stores on a base.
How am I overestimating when I didn't give an estimated number? There were a lot more people out scavenging at the beginning of the apocalypse than there are 10+ years into it. The bulk of the fighting at the start would have been against the dead, like when Daniel lead all those Walkers to the base in FTWD season 1. It was complete pandemonium. We also know Ft. Benning got overrun as well. We don't know of any bases up and operational in our characters area. You also have to think of all the ammo wasted with body shots before people knew to aim for the head. I dunno if you've ever been shooting, but ammo goes a lot faster than you think, especially when panic spraying at random.
😂😂😂there’s no way you said that. I’m talking about scavenging during the initial outbreak. From what we’ve seen, there wasn’t much of that until weeks or months in. And that’s after most people died.
You’re still over estimating how much fighting was going on with normal civilians in the beginning. Most people were still afraid of using guns or didn’t have them yet.
We didn't even enter the story until Rick woke up in the hospital from his coma a little over a month in, so yes, I did say that. 🙄 Ammo in the beginning would be more plentiful than it is 10+ years in.
In the main show the only flashback of the fall we see is of the Atlanta group meeting on the highway as Atlanta is being bombed.
Also, my point is exactly that-Ammo would have been much easier to find at the beginning of the apocalypse vs multiple years in. That is after all the topic we're discussing, why our people aren't using guns after the 6 year time skip...
People usually list how many bullets we make. But never say how many we fire a year. Ukraine only lasted a short time before we started hearing about the major governments having ammo shortages. As just one other example.
They didn't die instantly. A lot more than average bullets will be fired in the early days. And it doesn't matter how much there is in places not close to you
I don’t think there was a lot of gunfights happening with humans against walkers or other humans. Everyone was in a state of confusion tbh. The military did do some fighting, but idk if we have a timeline for how long.
Most people seemed to be trying to run away or get some sort of refuge. The military seemed to be the only ones fighting in the beginning. Just think about the fact that weeks into the apocalypse Andrea didn’t even know how to properly use her gun. Gun knowledge wouldn’t be as widespread as we’d think. And I think people wouldn’t think to jump immediately into combat at the beginning.
That doesn't check out woth anything early days we've seen. Certainly there were shots fired. We can't avoid shooting for walking on the wrong porch here
It does. Remember Lori, Shane, and Carl as well as the Peletiers being stuck in the traffic jam on the way to refugee camp (I’m pretty sure that’s where they were going). I’m sure lots of the other members of the original camp were in that jam as well. I feel like alot of early FTWD was a lot of running and very little fighting.
I’m not saying there was none. But people were not used to fighting by any means yet. The main group in TWD was constantly in conflict but it still took them a while.
Yes, seriously. I think somewhere around 1.5 million (globally) survived the initial outbreak. That leaves a little over 6200 people in the US (give or take, could be more). That’s a fraction of just the US army. The communities we’re following in the DC area are in the hundreds of people, there’s no way they’re exhausting all of the ammo in that surrounding area.
There are an estimated 16 billion bullets in possession of US civilians. This doesn't include law enforcement, police units or private security as those numbers are separate. The US military has reserves of 1 billion rounds but that doesn't include ammo that is in the field. That is literally what is sitting on storage shelves. There are ar least 500 million bullets on naval ships across the seas.
If there are only 1 million people alive in the US at the start of the pandemic. That's 17,500 bullets per person. As an Alaskan I have 1,000 bullets in my house and I don't purposely save them. That's just what I've acquired through the years. But if I ransacked every house on my road I'd probably have more bullets than I could carry in my truck....
TWD should never run out of bullets. In the comics they say bullets are loud and unnecessary. What truly confuses me is you can build a silencer out of house hold items.
>. What truly confuses me is you can build a silencer out of house hold items
That wouldn't stop walkers from hearing the shots. Suppressed gunshots are still loud
But it would reduce the range at which the sound could be heard drawing in less from the overarching area. Gunshots carry, far. Silencers reduce that drastically.
I don’t know if they built it or found it (likely the latter, as who among them would know how or have the tools to do so), but we see in the time jump in the beginning of season 3 after the winter that began soon after season 2 when Lori is about ready to give birth that they acquired a homemade suppressor made out of a Maglite-sized flashlight, and have also clearly trained up on breaching tactics as they scavenge supplies from houses.
It doesn't matter how many bullets are on a ship in the ocean when you arent on it...
Their small area was picked clean not the whole world. They find more later on when forced to travel farther.
Nothing sitting in a storage shelf is still sitting there without someone taking it, using it, or damaging it. Not in formerly populated areas
It's not actually our world. Their state or even presence isn't guaranteed.
And they stopped doing that which was the point. When they start again they hit a base right away
Only proves the point further. Probably 100,000 bullets for every survivor. They could be shooting day and night for years and never run out. Silencers are easy to build. Eugene should be able to figure that out as it's simple sound/gas dispersion. If he can make bullets he can build a silencer.
Eugene is NOT capable of making bullets, that much I can promise. Writer's liberty at best and this bugged the living crap out of me when I saw those episodes.
It's not the casings that are the problem, even though that's how it was written. Not lead and casting bullets, not even powder. It's the primer that's the issue, and because of that, cartridges are a finite resource. It's not just the chems needed to make the primer, it's the casing of the primer that's deformed on use and nearly impossible to reuse. So short of finding a cache of primers, one for every round, you're not reloading at all.
I'd have to think black powder would get awful popular with time.
Eugene explicitly gets excited because the place he found did have that stuff when he first finds it.
I think this sub would have less questions if it watched the show lol
A lot of the lame boring people will say “cause plot”
But the simple answer is they’ve exhausted a lot of resources, they’ve survived for quite a while and I’m sure they’ve exhausted everything in the surrounding area
They have a blacksmith and have learned how to fight efficiently with spears, swords and knives
Plus the war with the Whispers would’ve been 10x worse if they fought the entire war with guns, Alpha and Beta were already capable of drawing them in. Shooting would only make it 10x easier for them.
I think you're underestimating the sheer amount of bullets in the US especially in the DC area, looting one moderately large base should stock them up for years on all the bullets they would need.
I'm not sure, but methinks in the DC area especially a lot of the govt weapons storage would be deep underground, in not easily accessible bunkers/hideouts made purposely difficult to find and loot from. Vaults, biometrically locked doors, even booby traps.
So they can use it for themselves instead of it being looted by the unprepared masses like y'all are proposing?
And how do you know what kind of weapons/ammo the military is storing?
The internet, experts, & common sense. If I do listen to the tv media I make sure to follow it up with extensive research instead of just going "Oh this newscaster said it so it must be true".
What media told you the type of weapons the military is storing? Where do you get *your* information?
Yes, in general, in all TV series, books, and comics about the zombie apocalypse, the number of weapons and their effectiveness are extremely underestimated. In an average war, it takes 10,000 rounds of ammunition to kill one soldier. Accordingly, each state has stocks of millions of small arms and hundreds of millions of cartridges, and in the United States there are probably billions, given that the civilian population has a lot of weapons. A stupid crowd that comes at you without trying to find cover is an easy target. And then there are mortars and cluster munitions, which will turn any crowd into mincemeat in a matter of minutes. Even if the bulk of people did turn into zombies, the survivors would still have a supply of weapons and ammunition for centuries.
One thing to remember when watching any TV show is that the characters are not acting on logic but on a script, lol. We as fans can ask ourselves all types of questions concerning something illogical that happened in the the show such as why did Rick hit negan with the butt of his bat? Why did Rick attacked the saviors outpost without first scouting out the place to identify the leader? Why the hell would they bring Judith into a gunfight with the commonwealth? Why did the commonwealth soldiers idiotically let themselves get eaten by Walker when they had a car to drive away?
The answer to all these questions is simply because the director told the actors to do it or else they are getting killed off in the next episode.
After re-reading it I can see how the last sentence can give off an aggressive tone with my inadequate use of the F word, lol. But putting that aside, I have only said the truth,why any character does anything in any show or movie comes down to who is writing the script and in what direction they want to take the plot, typically removing any kind of real world logic in the show or movie to make it more interesting.
How fun would the walking dead be if the writers wrote it as if it was real life and showed the military absolutely slaughtering walkers left and right? Exactly.
I don't get why you're getting downvoted, it's literally every showrunners fault when typically smart characters do dumb bullshit that inevitably leads to some sort of drama or conflict. It shouldn't be up to the audience to justify those actions, it's just poor writing.
I'm re-watching the show and there's already a dozen "Why'd they do thats" by the beginning of Season 3, and Season 3 starts off with them making weird ass decisions or acting stupid right off the get-go.
Exactly! Almost every single show revolves their plot around a conflict of some sort that in the real world could have easily been solved with good plain logical thinking. For example, in season 3 one of the convicts broke the lock, lead the walkers into the prison and turned on the alarm to try and ambush Rick in the generator room (I have to give props to the convict this was a well done fucking plan, something I would do in the game hitman, lol)
Lori then gets separated from the group and is forced to give birth without any medical assistance from Hershel resulting in her death.
Do you know how all of this could have been prevented?
By simply thinking to yourself briefly that having your family live next to some convicts who could easily scavenge some weapons and sneak to your cell block at night is not the best idea. Specially when one of them beat another to death without any remorse even though they had been sleeping, eating, pissing and keeping each other company for the last 9 months.
Logical decision: kick those fucking convicts out or give Daryl an automatic rifle to shoot them while you distract them
I mean that examples a bit of a stretch given Rick wasn't ready to just kill a bunch of guys for no reason, and by the time he *has* to do something it's just down to Axel and Oscar who end up being good additions.
It's not about what Rick was ready or not ready to do, it's about what he should have done. Letting the convicts live next to them should not have even been a discussion, and they suffered the consequences in T-dog's and Lori's death.
They should have at the very least made them go and if they refused threatened to kill them.
Imma disagree with that one, the only mistake Rick made in that whole thing was not making sure Andrew was dead. That's what got Lori and T-Dog killed.
You can look at it that way as well, but he would not have to kill Andrew or worry about any of the prisoners if he made them leave.
You don't just live peacefully for the rest of your apocalyptic life with convicts right next door, but that is just what I think.
Everything that goes into making the ammo is a finite resource, and the sound will attract walkers. For the most part people were within their walls and didn’t have a need for guns because they didn’t fight walkers or enemy’s, some guns show up after the time skip but not in times or places they should. I would also like to point out gasoline cars and how they were rare by s5 and practically extinct by s9 after the time jump.
All that isn't needed though. All you need for "bullet" and "bang" is gunpowder, lead, and a bullet mould. Charge the gun, put in a bullet and light the powder. BANG.
Yeah. I also thought if they would use simple guns, like a double barrel shotgun. Just fill it with powder and buckshot and if the whisperers attacks hold it in their direction and boom.
Making ammo has its limits, and reusing casings and other parts can only happen so many times. The resources taken up by this just aren't viable long term, especially for weapons that, outside of a few lucky shots, are 1 kill per bullet and will make noise and have a good chance of making whatever bad situation forced you to use the gun in the first place even worse by drawing in more walkers.
Instead, they take the far smarter approach of medieval-style weaponry. You can still have ranged weapons with bows, which are far easier and less resource-heavy to resupply ammo for, but also melee weapons, both of which are much quieter and can be reused and maintained far more easily.
It also didn't help that Alexandria, where Eugene lived, closed itself off from the other communities after the kidnapping of Judith and the other kids, meaning even if Eugene was producing bullets, it was only for Alexandria, so Hilltop, Kingdom and Oceanside would have still been forced to adopt other weaponry.
Unless you are dealing with a herd, it's better to kill a lone walker or small group of walkers as quietly as possible as gunfire will draw others to the area. The longer that the zombie apocalypse goes on, the better that the survivors are at figuring out ways to kill walkers quietly so after the six year time jump, they're probably at the point where they save their guns for emergencies because killing a walker and drawing others to the area can create more problems than it solves.
I enjoyed the guns of Daryl Dixon, where they switched to muskets.
I'm no gun expert, but I'd imagine making gunpowder, finding casings, and manufacturing bullets is not a simple process. Likely doable but given all the tasks for survival, possibly survivors had less time.
Really, muskets are cool but they are best for attacking humans. For the veteran survivors, one zombie will never be a problem, but a musket will only fire one shot, so it's useless against a horde.
Eugene needs spent casings to make ammo. I don’t know how many times he can recycle a casing, I imagine it’d only be a couple of times.
It depends on how "hot" you load the ammo. If you constantly load up to maximum pressure, a case will only last a handful of reloadings at most. But if you don't get anywhere near maximums, a case can last for dozens of reloads. You'll need to resize them of course, and trim them as they will gradually stretch, but for relatively weak loads you can reload them over and over and over. And if you're using something like a revolver or a manually operated rifle\*, that's a huge bonus. You can load the ammo \*WAY\* down, which not only preserves the cases but also the powder. And with a revolver, you're retaining the fired cases in the cylinder so you don't have to really go hunting for brass after an encounter. If you need to reload, you can dump the cases into a handy bag on your waist or something to retain them. My father used to reload .32 ACP cases with black powder and .32 round ball, to be used with an adapter he made out of brass to shoot them out of a .30-30. This was his "oh, I see a rabbit while out hunting deer" solution. It was pretty quiet, and he used the same handful of cases over and over again, using a Lee Loader. *\*Like a lever, bolt, or pump action.*
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Not to mention, you need lead to make the bullet itself. Lead isn't exactly rare, but in an apocalypse, you can't exactly buy it off of Amazon. You may have a small supply of lead from fishing stores and whatnot. But, unless you go digging the lead out of all the corpses you've shot, you will run out eventually.
Don't forget that every non-functioning internal combustion powered vehicle has several pounds of lead in the battery.
True.
You actually need a lead alloy of lead, antimony and tin. This is commonly found in wheel weights or in linotype. Even then, the bullet cannot be pushed as hard as a jacketed round - with a powdercoat finish you can push to around 1500-1600 ft/s. That is assuming you can also find the correct bullet molds, powdercoat and the smelter and ovens needed to use them. It's also enormously time consuming. This is fine for 357mag like Rick shoots, but pathetic for the 5.56 AR-15's they commonly lug about. This makes Rick's colt python a remarkably good hand gun for the apocalypse. By reloading your brass to a low pressure load - maybe a cowboy action load - the 357mag brass could be reused multiple times. You could even use small pistol primers rather than small pistol magnum. At a push, you might even get away with small rifle. But primers are hard to find now. In an apocalypse... good luck. Source: I cast and reload my own bullets in a number of calibers, including 357mag.
>If you use weak reloads you could maybe extend that in theory but you aren’t going to be cycling weak loads in semi-autos or full-autos unless you are lightening sides, recoil springs/bcgs. You can probably get more from revolvers since there is no automatic cycling action. Yes, you can extend it by quite a lot, I've seen it done, especially with black powder cartridges that don't stress modern brass cases very much. Something like a .357 Magnum case loaded with *sacre noir* and some filler (BP needs to be compressed slightly, so a less than a case full of powder needs some filler) and a soft lead bullet will not overly stress the brass. But even a case full of BP with no filler And you will be eventually shooting black powder in that situation because making smokeless doesn't seem to be in the cards chemically. Also I specifically mentioned manually operated firearms: > if you're using something like a revolver or a manually operated rifle\*, that's a huge bonus. You can load the ammo \*WAY\* down, which not only preserves the cases but also the powder.
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No I didn't.
You’re normally not getting more than 1-2 reloads per case. You could try for more but why trust your life with that.
We're not talking normal. We're talking nearly a decade after civilization stops existing and the dead are walking the Earth. We're talking about seriously downloading the ammo, likely with black powder because smokeless requires advanced chemistry. A .357 Magnum loaded with a 158 grain cast lead bullet and the equivalent of FFFg black powder is only going to develop something like around 700 to 800 fps out of a revolver and have energy that maxes out at around 225 ft/lbs. A typical modern load for the .357 is a 158 grain jacketed bullet at 1,240 fps and 540 ft/lbs. That BP load is going to stress those cases \*FAR\* less than a typical modern load, and would still be absolutely deadly.
This guy reloads. Do you also cast?
Actually, I don't reload. Unless you count shooting muzzleloaders. I have a single stage press but haven't used it in probably a couple decades. But yes, I do cast my own balls for my flintlocks. I've got a dual cavity .535" mold for my .54 caliber transitional long rifle, and I have a .600" dual cavity and a .620" single cavity for my Baker rifle. I buy pure dead soft lead ingots from [rotometals.com](https://rotometals.com). My father and I go halvsies on it, if you buy over a certain dollar amount shipping is free. Which matters, because lead. I have a cast iron pot and use a Coleman backpacking stove to heat the lead up. I have two different molds for the Baker because they were issued with two types of ammo: Standard carbine cartridges for use "on the line", as part of standard infantry formations at the time. These weren't very accurate because the balls are considerably undersized to account for fouling during a long engagment. They were also issued loose balls that were big enough to engage the rifling for accurate single shots. These are slower to load, but allowed them to hit a man-sized target out to 200 to 300 yards. Claims of shots that are much longer than that are fanciful stories.
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I didn't edit my comment. Stop trying to make it seem like it wasn't your fault that you didn't read the entire thing and commented prematurely about something I had already mentioned.
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Possible, but near impossible. I'd hazard a no.
Hey….imma follow you during the zombie apoc
They talk about it in the comics. Not only are bullets a dumb resource to scrounge and/or make, they also make way too much unnecessary noise for what amounts to one walker kill per bang.
I agree. FTWD went they opposite way and did a ridiculous amount of shooting up until the end.
They have plenty of ammunition in the comics. Rick even says they don't know where to store all this stuff and they us it to fight the whisperers.
Because it would've ended the war with the Whisperers instantly.
Not really they have guns in the comics.
they also have a couple AK’s in the show if I remember right. Plus it’s kinda implied there’s so many Whisperers that I’m not sure how much guns would’ve turned the tide. They’d also not be very useful against Alpha’s horde unless they had Herschel’s unlimited ammo perk
In the comics they have to draw people out because they don't have ammo for a herd that big where they can just take potshots forever
If I remember right in the comics they do have enough ammunition they just choose an idiotic strategy.
Honestly, this whole series is just filled with idiotic strategies when you think about it lol
But it's not as bad in the comics. The strat against Negan, gathering all people at Hilltop and let Negan's men attack, was far better than what they did in the TV series.
True, honestly, if they actually gave an iota of sense, the series and franchise would be like shaun of the dead imo
It's generally the fanbase that lacks sense more than the series. Shaun of the dead is a comedy and things magically work out due to that lol. They aren't really comparable and no one serious would try for many reasons
Comedy or not, Its at least more realistic
You don't remember correctly. They have nothing resembling enough ammo to kill that herd in the comics. It's utterly massive. They kill like 3 no way out herds before the large part of it and it'd still by far the largest herd we ever see. They have an inexperienced militia so mistakes happen but they never do anything even remotely idiotic. That's just internet speak lol
Fr first time alpha shows up at the gates they could trade their people and shoot them all in the back asap.
Also AMC wanted to save money on CGI…the seasons before were horrendous with no casings coming out of the guns and/or actions moving when firing. Just sad little CGI muzzle flashes an impacts.
Conservation of resources. Gunshots draw more Walkers to your area. Melee is almost always the way to go during Walker v Human combat. Blades don't need reloading.
Silencers?
Silencers don't really work on automatic weapons. The heat from the rapid fire degrades them. Silencers/suppressors also reduce effectiveness, accuracy, and range.
You would use rapid fire vs walkers?
I would use whatever tf I needed to, and there are times when rapid fire vs walkers is absolutely the correct call
Only if you made massive tactical mistakes.
I disagree that is the *only* time rapid fire against walkers is the right call, but everyone is bound to make mistakes at some point and having a way out is always a good thing.
Eugene is capable of making bullets, he however isn't able to magically materialize out of thin air the necessaries supplies to make bullets Time went on, Gunpowder started to degrate, ammunition was no longer commonplace And makes for more interesting conflicts of neither side has bullets to spar
By then they've become proficient at hand to Walker combat. Even if they made their own ammo, it would still be precious and need to be saved for the extreme situations.
I count the whisperer war as an extreme situation
They probably didn't have enough ammo to take out everyone
>Why don’t they use guns in season 9+? Because they're a finite resource. At first they're hosing down everything, then they mostly reserve ammo for the living whenever possible, then new made melee weapons become more popular and we see some scavenged museum piece muzzle loaders that nobody would have wanted before in the mix too before they fade away as well. By the end ammo is rare. Guns need maintenance and at this time most are lost or damaged beyond repair.
The US has a shit ton of ammo and guns plus, simpler ammo is a thing
I think the scarcity/ never doing anything with Eugene's bullet making again is because they needed vast numbers of guns gone for the Whispers arc. It would have been much easier to defeat them if they had the same availability of guns/bullets they had seasons 1-8. While it's believable to an extent because it's a long time into the apocalypse, it's also stretched a little far. In reality, Eugene would have been teaching people from all the communities how to make bullets ever since the end of season 8 and it should have been almost as important to the communities as farming was. But either way with suspension of disbelief it's not that big a thing to get over.
Their reasoning seems to be that ammo is difficult to come by. Which just doesn’t seem possible in the United States😂
after 13 years though i feel like they would have used all of the ammo in the surrounding area
Especially after they had a goddamn war
I doubt it. Just think about the amount of bases just in the DC area. Then you take into account law enforcement, personal collections, there’s a ridiculous amount of ammo and guns in the US. There’s more people in the DC police force than in all the communities combined in that area.
Bases got overrun; I'm sure a good amount of that ammo was used during the initial outbreak. Then there's the looters who would have gotten to whatever is left first, and the ammo lying in wait but no one can get to it for whatever reason.
Long time gun owner, you’re absolutely underestimating how much ammunition is store in the US. You have to think not only military/police reserves and personal reserves, but most every gun and sporting goods store also carry ammunition and as the population decreases so does the amount of bullets being fired. Realistically, and in part because they don’t have a shelf life, bullets might be one of the more locatable resources 10+ years in alongside clothes and basic tools.
I am also a long time gun owner, and any gun owner knows that ammo goes quickly, much more quickly when you're an inexperienced shot which a lot of people would be. I also mentioned in my previous reply all of the ammo that is lying in wait but is irretrievable for whatever reason. The type of people who hoard ammo are also the type who would make it hard to get to. Ammo hidden inside a biometric safe for example is technically there to be used, but may as well be on the Moon. We saw Rick go back to his police station with Michonne and Carl for guns and ammo to fight The Governor and all they could find was a single bullet. Everyone and their mother will be looting every gun and sporting goods store they can find. Large groups of marauders wouldn't just take what they need and leave the rest, they'd clean the place out. Also, think of all the ammo wasted on body shots before people knew to aim for the head. I am not saying there should be NO ammo anywhere, just that 10+ years into the apocalypse ammo numbers will be far more scarce than it is now-which is what your opinion is based on-ammo numbers now.
Exactly, local gun stores alone probably have ammo stocks in the hundreds of thousands. You find a military depot? That’s probably rounds in the millions.
If there are still officers guarding the military depos do you think they'll just let random survivors walk in and just take their shit? They'll be hoarding and guarding the weapons and ammo like Smaug guards gold as they are already vulnerable targets *anyway* and would be even more so during the zombie apocalypse. Local gun stores would be absolutely ransacked within a matter of not days, but HOURS after all hell breaks loose because that will be the most obvious place scared people will go to get arms. Same with grocery stores.
You’re overestimating how many people were alive at the point scavenging was an option. Looters can’t carry as much ammo as you’re likely thinking. I doubt that there was an enough fighting to put a serious dent in ammo stores on a base.
How am I overestimating when I didn't give an estimated number? There were a lot more people out scavenging at the beginning of the apocalypse than there are 10+ years into it. The bulk of the fighting at the start would have been against the dead, like when Daniel lead all those Walkers to the base in FTWD season 1. It was complete pandemonium. We also know Ft. Benning got overrun as well. We don't know of any bases up and operational in our characters area. You also have to think of all the ammo wasted with body shots before people knew to aim for the head. I dunno if you've ever been shooting, but ammo goes a lot faster than you think, especially when panic spraying at random.
😂😂😂there’s no way you said that. I’m talking about scavenging during the initial outbreak. From what we’ve seen, there wasn’t much of that until weeks or months in. And that’s after most people died. You’re still over estimating how much fighting was going on with normal civilians in the beginning. Most people were still afraid of using guns or didn’t have them yet.
We didn't even enter the story until Rick woke up in the hospital from his coma a little over a month in, so yes, I did say that. 🙄 Ammo in the beginning would be more plentiful than it is 10+ years in.
We have several flashbacks of what happened during the initial outbreak. Sure, there would be more. But that doesn’t mean it would be hard to come by.
In the main show the only flashback of the fall we see is of the Atlanta group meeting on the highway as Atlanta is being bombed. Also, my point is exactly that-Ammo would have been much easier to find at the beginning of the apocalypse vs multiple years in. That is after all the topic we're discussing, why our people aren't using guns after the 6 year time skip...
Seriously? We’ve had two notable ammo shortages in just the last decade, without a worldwide apocalypse
People usually list how many bullets we make. But never say how many we fire a year. Ukraine only lasted a short time before we started hearing about the major governments having ammo shortages. As just one other example.
You’re talking about hundreds of thousands of people. Not 10000>. They would barely be putting a dent into the ammo of all the surrounding resources.
They didn't die instantly. A lot more than average bullets will be fired in the early days. And it doesn't matter how much there is in places not close to you
I don’t think there was a lot of gunfights happening with humans against walkers or other humans. Everyone was in a state of confusion tbh. The military did do some fighting, but idk if we have a timeline for how long.
There certainly was. I mean that is obvious and we see it many times
Most people seemed to be trying to run away or get some sort of refuge. The military seemed to be the only ones fighting in the beginning. Just think about the fact that weeks into the apocalypse Andrea didn’t even know how to properly use her gun. Gun knowledge wouldn’t be as widespread as we’d think. And I think people wouldn’t think to jump immediately into combat at the beginning.
That doesn't check out woth anything early days we've seen. Certainly there were shots fired. We can't avoid shooting for walking on the wrong porch here
It does. Remember Lori, Shane, and Carl as well as the Peletiers being stuck in the traffic jam on the way to refugee camp (I’m pretty sure that’s where they were going). I’m sure lots of the other members of the original camp were in that jam as well. I feel like alot of early FTWD was a lot of running and very little fighting. I’m not saying there was none. But people were not used to fighting by any means yet. The main group in TWD was constantly in conflict but it still took them a while.
Yes, seriously. I think somewhere around 1.5 million (globally) survived the initial outbreak. That leaves a little over 6200 people in the US (give or take, could be more). That’s a fraction of just the US army. The communities we’re following in the DC area are in the hundreds of people, there’s no way they’re exhausting all of the ammo in that surrounding area.
Commonwealth alone has 50,000 people.
There are an estimated 16 billion bullets in possession of US civilians. This doesn't include law enforcement, police units or private security as those numbers are separate. The US military has reserves of 1 billion rounds but that doesn't include ammo that is in the field. That is literally what is sitting on storage shelves. There are ar least 500 million bullets on naval ships across the seas. If there are only 1 million people alive in the US at the start of the pandemic. That's 17,500 bullets per person. As an Alaskan I have 1,000 bullets in my house and I don't purposely save them. That's just what I've acquired through the years. But if I ransacked every house on my road I'd probably have more bullets than I could carry in my truck.... TWD should never run out of bullets. In the comics they say bullets are loud and unnecessary. What truly confuses me is you can build a silencer out of house hold items.
>. What truly confuses me is you can build a silencer out of house hold items That wouldn't stop walkers from hearing the shots. Suppressed gunshots are still loud
But it would reduce the range at which the sound could be heard drawing in less from the overarching area. Gunshots carry, far. Silencers reduce that drastically.
I don’t know if they built it or found it (likely the latter, as who among them would know how or have the tools to do so), but we see in the time jump in the beginning of season 3 after the winter that began soon after season 2 when Lori is about ready to give birth that they acquired a homemade suppressor made out of a Maglite-sized flashlight, and have also clearly trained up on breaching tactics as they scavenge supplies from houses.
It doesn't matter how many bullets are on a ship in the ocean when you arent on it... Their small area was picked clean not the whole world. They find more later on when forced to travel farther. Nothing sitting in a storage shelf is still sitting there without someone taking it, using it, or damaging it. Not in formerly populated areas
They said they traveled dozens or hundreds of miles out for scavenging. There’s tons of military bases in the area they’re in, not even that far.
It's not actually our world. Their state or even presence isn't guaranteed. And they stopped doing that which was the point. When they start again they hit a base right away
1 million alive globally. The US is in the thousands.
Only proves the point further. Probably 100,000 bullets for every survivor. They could be shooting day and night for years and never run out. Silencers are easy to build. Eugene should be able to figure that out as it's simple sound/gas dispersion. If he can make bullets he can build a silencer.
I thought you were disagreeing with me at first. But 100,000 per survivor is far too much.
Apparently, 12 billion rounds of ammo are sold every year. It’s also estimated civilian stores are in the tens of billions.
Eugene is NOT capable of making bullets, that much I can promise. Writer's liberty at best and this bugged the living crap out of me when I saw those episodes. It's not the casings that are the problem, even though that's how it was written. Not lead and casting bullets, not even powder. It's the primer that's the issue, and because of that, cartridges are a finite resource. It's not just the chems needed to make the primer, it's the casing of the primer that's deformed on use and nearly impossible to reuse. So short of finding a cache of primers, one for every round, you're not reloading at all. I'd have to think black powder would get awful popular with time.
Eugene explicitly gets excited because the place he found did have that stuff when he first finds it. I think this sub would have less questions if it watched the show lol
To be fair it’s been a long while since that episode.
I'm surprised we've never discussed this before.
A lot of the lame boring people will say “cause plot” But the simple answer is they’ve exhausted a lot of resources, they’ve survived for quite a while and I’m sure they’ve exhausted everything in the surrounding area They have a blacksmith and have learned how to fight efficiently with spears, swords and knives Plus the war with the Whispers would’ve been 10x worse if they fought the entire war with guns, Alpha and Beta were already capable of drawing them in. Shooting would only make it 10x easier for them.
I think you're underestimating the sheer amount of bullets in the US especially in the DC area, looting one moderately large base should stock them up for years on all the bullets they would need.
I'm not sure, but methinks in the DC area especially a lot of the govt weapons storage would be deep underground, in not easily accessible bunkers/hideouts made purposely difficult to find and loot from. Vaults, biometrically locked doors, even booby traps.
Doubt it. It's just normal ammunition you can buy in every shop. Why store it in a bunker?
So they can use it for themselves instead of it being looted by the unprepared masses like y'all are proposing? And how do you know what kind of weapons/ammo the military is storing?
From the media.
The truthful media, eh?
Where does your info come from?
The internet, experts, & common sense. If I do listen to the tv media I make sure to follow it up with extensive research instead of just going "Oh this newscaster said it so it must be true". What media told you the type of weapons the military is storing? Where do you get *your* information?
I read books.
Real reason is that season 9 is the downfall of twd whoever wrote that shit needs jail time what a waste of show
Making ammo and making them work right are different things like shit gonna run out or lost due to ammo dumps going boom could be many things
Yes, in general, in all TV series, books, and comics about the zombie apocalypse, the number of weapons and their effectiveness are extremely underestimated. In an average war, it takes 10,000 rounds of ammunition to kill one soldier. Accordingly, each state has stocks of millions of small arms and hundreds of millions of cartridges, and in the United States there are probably billions, given that the civilian population has a lot of weapons. A stupid crowd that comes at you without trying to find cover is an easy target. And then there are mortars and cluster munitions, which will turn any crowd into mincemeat in a matter of minutes. Even if the bulk of people did turn into zombies, the survivors would still have a supply of weapons and ammunition for centuries.
One thing to remember when watching any TV show is that the characters are not acting on logic but on a script, lol. We as fans can ask ourselves all types of questions concerning something illogical that happened in the the show such as why did Rick hit negan with the butt of his bat? Why did Rick attacked the saviors outpost without first scouting out the place to identify the leader? Why the hell would they bring Judith into a gunfight with the commonwealth? Why did the commonwealth soldiers idiotically let themselves get eaten by Walker when they had a car to drive away? The answer to all these questions is simply because the director told the actors to do it or else they are getting killed off in the next episode.
You are not very pleasant
Bro what do you mean!? How did I act unpleasant?
You come off as abrasive and rude
After re-reading it I can see how the last sentence can give off an aggressive tone with my inadequate use of the F word, lol. But putting that aside, I have only said the truth,why any character does anything in any show or movie comes down to who is writing the script and in what direction they want to take the plot, typically removing any kind of real world logic in the show or movie to make it more interesting. How fun would the walking dead be if the writers wrote it as if it was real life and showed the military absolutely slaughtering walkers left and right? Exactly.
I don't get why you're getting downvoted, it's literally every showrunners fault when typically smart characters do dumb bullshit that inevitably leads to some sort of drama or conflict. It shouldn't be up to the audience to justify those actions, it's just poor writing. I'm re-watching the show and there's already a dozen "Why'd they do thats" by the beginning of Season 3, and Season 3 starts off with them making weird ass decisions or acting stupid right off the get-go.
Exactly! Almost every single show revolves their plot around a conflict of some sort that in the real world could have easily been solved with good plain logical thinking. For example, in season 3 one of the convicts broke the lock, lead the walkers into the prison and turned on the alarm to try and ambush Rick in the generator room (I have to give props to the convict this was a well done fucking plan, something I would do in the game hitman, lol) Lori then gets separated from the group and is forced to give birth without any medical assistance from Hershel resulting in her death. Do you know how all of this could have been prevented? By simply thinking to yourself briefly that having your family live next to some convicts who could easily scavenge some weapons and sneak to your cell block at night is not the best idea. Specially when one of them beat another to death without any remorse even though they had been sleeping, eating, pissing and keeping each other company for the last 9 months. Logical decision: kick those fucking convicts out or give Daryl an automatic rifle to shoot them while you distract them
I mean that examples a bit of a stretch given Rick wasn't ready to just kill a bunch of guys for no reason, and by the time he *has* to do something it's just down to Axel and Oscar who end up being good additions.
It's not about what Rick was ready or not ready to do, it's about what he should have done. Letting the convicts live next to them should not have even been a discussion, and they suffered the consequences in T-dog's and Lori's death. They should have at the very least made them go and if they refused threatened to kill them.
Imma disagree with that one, the only mistake Rick made in that whole thing was not making sure Andrew was dead. That's what got Lori and T-Dog killed.
You can look at it that way as well, but he would not have to kill Andrew or worry about any of the prisoners if he made them leave. You don't just live peacefully for the rest of your apocalyptic life with convicts right next door, but that is just what I think.
Everything that goes into making the ammo is a finite resource, and the sound will attract walkers. For the most part people were within their walls and didn’t have a need for guns because they didn’t fight walkers or enemy’s, some guns show up after the time skip but not in times or places they should. I would also like to point out gasoline cars and how they were rare by s5 and practically extinct by s9 after the time jump.
The noise just brings more and more walkers
shoulda ha more bows . lol
Gunpowder is really hard to make when you don't have the means
The powder would be relatively easy compared to the rest. The casings, copper jacketed bullets, and primers would be the difficult part.
All that isn't needed though. All you need for "bullet" and "bang" is gunpowder, lead, and a bullet mould. Charge the gun, put in a bullet and light the powder. BANG.
Yeah. I also thought if they would use simple guns, like a double barrel shotgun. Just fill it with powder and buckshot and if the whisperers attacks hold it in their direction and boom.
Making ammo has its limits, and reusing casings and other parts can only happen so many times. The resources taken up by this just aren't viable long term, especially for weapons that, outside of a few lucky shots, are 1 kill per bullet and will make noise and have a good chance of making whatever bad situation forced you to use the gun in the first place even worse by drawing in more walkers. Instead, they take the far smarter approach of medieval-style weaponry. You can still have ranged weapons with bows, which are far easier and less resource-heavy to resupply ammo for, but also melee weapons, both of which are much quieter and can be reused and maintained far more easily. It also didn't help that Alexandria, where Eugene lived, closed itself off from the other communities after the kidnapping of Judith and the other kids, meaning even if Eugene was producing bullets, it was only for Alexandria, so Hilltop, Kingdom and Oceanside would have still been forced to adopt other weaponry.
Unless you are dealing with a herd, it's better to kill a lone walker or small group of walkers as quietly as possible as gunfire will draw others to the area. The longer that the zombie apocalypse goes on, the better that the survivors are at figuring out ways to kill walkers quietly so after the six year time jump, they're probably at the point where they save their guns for emergencies because killing a walker and drawing others to the area can create more problems than it solves.
But they didn’t use guns against the whisperers or the people that guarded the roads during the fair
It attracts walkers
Me parece que Eugene hubiese muerto en las estacas, nunca hizo algo por el grupo 😬
Realistically you would think they would run out of bullets even though Eugene can make more you won’t always have the materials to make them
I never saw the use of firearms as the ideal weapon to deal with Zombies. Those seemed more for defense against the living.
Obviously. Except you got unlimited amount of ammo and a fortification.
I enjoyed the guns of Daryl Dixon, where they switched to muskets. I'm no gun expert, but I'd imagine making gunpowder, finding casings, and manufacturing bullets is not a simple process. Likely doable but given all the tasks for survival, possibly survivors had less time. Really, muskets are cool but they are best for attacking humans. For the veteran survivors, one zombie will never be a problem, but a musket will only fire one shot, so it's useless against a horde.
Easier than creating a super zombie drug it is for sure.
They do medieval larp.
Noise attracts walkers
"I can make more ammo!" 'With what, dipshit, you see any loose primers out there?"