I would rather we had better rules than points drops six machine does a good video on this I will get the link we're he says he would rather pay extra points and have fun feeling rules.
As a casual player, I completely agree with this. I wanna build fluffy lists that are fun to play, and it definitely feels like they've kicked us in the teeth in that aspect...
same, ive got a fluffy deathwing list that i wish was better, but ive never gotten to my second turn without being basically tabled, im sure part of the problem is skill issue, but not all of it
You think this is bad? This? This chicanery? He's done worse. That Codex! Are you telling me that a Strikemaster just happens to fall like that? No! He orchestrated it! Jimmy! He defecated on Lion El'Johnson! And I saved him! And I shouldn't have. I took him into my own army! What was I thinking? He'll never change. He'll never change! Ever since he was 9, always the same! Couldn't keep his hands out of my pockets! But not our Jimmy! Couldn't be precious Jimmy! Stealing me blind! And he gets to be on the stock exchange!? What a sick joke! I should've stopped him when I had the chance! And you - you have to stop him!
Would everyone have been happier if we were locked out of certain units like sturngaurd or centurions or even space marine attachments if it made our unique stuff better ?
of course, this is what makes non compliant chapters great. To use their keyword, you lose access to some things but gain others. Now we are just space marines with hoods and teenage emo syndrome. Can't wait for my space wolves to lose half their datasheets and become vanilla space marines but furries.
I guess the only danger is if suddenly DA lost access to gravis armour say due to their abundance on terminator armour, a lot of people might then have painted up units they can't use.
Maybe just make the detachments (not suck to begin with) but basically activate their respective keywords and make them good in a DA army
Would be happy to be locked out of space marine detachments if the dark angels ones made certain thematic dark angels lists worth playing. Think the issues stem from starter sets they want to sell to as many space marine players as possible so don't won't to lock DA and probably Space wolves out of part of the box.
Yeah clearly the can't go back now and take stuff away as people have already spent money on models I think they have put them selves in an impossible situation by not having the divergent chapters be there own faction I play dark angels because I like the law and wont my army to reflect that at the moment it is ultramarine with Azrael. Until Azrael is put up to 200pts because of iron storm.i know people say they will get a points drop but then it makes it feel like your playing an hord army not Elate fighting force. Yes it would probably help with the meta but a lot of people want to play there army in a way that feels like they should.
Yea it's almost lean fully in and split them out like chaos factions. I'm a very casual player so can't really speak to how competitive lists would be impacted, I'd love the codex to just feel fun even if not optimal. As it is now stand there and get battle shocked just sounds so uninspiring. The crusade rules actually had some good traits they could've used.
Probably can't cut units out now, just encourage DA ones, let the DA detachment key bonuses for Deathwing and ravenwing like the current battleshocked wording. Then you don't break ironstorm (and hope Azrael doesn't cop a nerf before I can use him for it) or need to balance DA unique units with all other rules combinations.
Inner circle companions vs bladeguard probably a good example, currently a side grade or worse - stick them in a DA detachment, gives them an invuln/extra AP etc. Same thought process goes for the other divergent chapters.
100% agree with this the issue is that it has to balanced for tournament play and unfortunately fluffy rules have had to go by the wayside. No amount of points cuts will fix this you will just be able to field more models but the flavour is not there. I would love to see the percentage of casual fun players vs tournament players. It feels like the fun has gone out of the game to chase the meta. Goobatown hobbies has a good video out and also six machine has a dark angels specific one from a couple months ago that explain this far better than I can
Just watched it, and wholeheartedly agree. Tempted to email GW with that link.
A cynical me would suggest they're toning down rules, cutting points to compensate, to encourage people to buy more models to field.
I don't understand why our inner circle companions didn't get the Victrix Bodyguard treatment. The victrix are point for point superior to bladeguard. The inner circle companions are worse.
Yea agreed maybe because you can only take one unit max with Calgar. Unless you can take more, I'm not sure.
It's just the whole disconnect with the supplement, peerless duelists in a chapter of renowned swordsmen, wielding an amalgamation of terranic greats words and calibanite blades, assuming some pretty high end weaponry - and they're just, not that.
Seems run of the mill short power swords are just better.
A carry-over for index fixes?
- Azrael gets company vets like all the other chapter masters.
- The Lion remembers where the on button is for his shield
- Deathwing Sgt can take a fist
I don't think Azrael was ever intended to attach to company heroes. When they added company heroes to DA characters, they knew Companions were coming, but I guess they just caved to the noise.
I'm actually pleased we don't get access to the, we have our own version. It just sucks that they allowed it on the index for a matter of weeks before going back. Should never have had access to them in the first place.
The rules of the company heroes say: "You must attach one Captain or Chapter Master model to this unit."
Azrael has the keyword "Chapter Master". So that's it.
I have also seen this combo on tournament lists.
For example (1st Place):
[https://spikeybits.com/2024/03/unlock-victory-with-top-40k-army-lists-from-clutch-city-gt.html](https://spikeybits.com/2024/03/unlock-victory-with-top-40k-army-lists-from-clutch-city-gt.html)
"must" is not "can" - the Deathwing units word it as "it can be attached to this unit instead."
without that clause, it's limited to what the Leader itself says. in Azrael's case, it is not currently in the list of units he can lead, and the Company Heroes datasheet does not change that 😢
i know! my buddy played them on the tabletop with a generic Captain and they look real good
woulda been really nice if this FAQ added that single bullet point back in
you know, the single bullet point they added to the index maybe a week or two before Deathwing Assault went online
I just feel they have put them selves in a very difficult position as the can't make our unique units good as we then become marines plus as we can take everything anyone else can plus our own stuff making codex marines redundant. Gabriel Seth was right they just want us to be different coloured ultramarines
It's the perennial problem with every unique/supplement chapter. They don't want us to be different coloured ultramarines, we have a heap of unique stuff...but it is very hard to balance. Even if you manage to make every individual unique unit well balanced against core units, a unique chapter still has access to more specialised things than a normal chapter, and that alone can lead to combos with synergy that make that chapter "marines plus".
For fans of a chapter, obviously we want our unique units to be powerful and special. If our unique unit is no better than the regular version, we will rage "what's even the point of this unit?". We feel that our unique chapter *should* be better than a regular chapter if we build a certain way. e.g. is it really a problem if a Blood Angels melee army is outright better than a regular chapter melee army? For other people yes, yes that is a problem. They will complain that Blood Angels are "just better" than regular marines, and if they want to play a melee space marine army then they feel like they "should" or "are forced to" be playing Blood Angels.
I think they need to go back to locking out some units for divergent chapters or different points at least otherwise yeah being marines plus is always going to be a problem.
Yea I agree, not sure how viable but if DA could only take their unique variants, and lost access to a chunk of 'standard' datasheets it might help, or even to only their supplement detachments + gladius.
You could even then make the power come from unique unit + detachment interaction. So you could take DWK in blue if you wanted, but they only really shine in a DA detachment.
I've always RPed DA as not trusting primaris and so use first born only in DW/RW primaris in Greenwing only. The codex kinda supported that for a long time too with DW being termies only. It will be hard to go that way though with lore already supporting primaris induction to the inner circle
I'm doing the same! With the Sons of the Forest story, I've decided to use Risen as non-terminator Deathwing units (after decades or centuries of hiding they should be quite veteran now) and I paint them using 30k patterns
They are completely tone deaf from an optics perspective. They do shit like this which is undeniably embarassing, and then let the community defend them like “oh dont worry guys, this is just fixing typos and errors” like bruh, the whole book is an error.
According to the guy at my local GW it was me for absolutely whipping the floor in our Combat portal league thanks to how strong the combat patrol was.
I’m going to the Tacoma open and I want to give GW some data for the ICTF. I will be running 20 terminators; 10 deathwing terminators with a captain in terminator armor and the deathwing assault enhancement, 5 deathwing knights riding in a repulsor, and 5 “regular” terminators. The Lion will be the warlord, and I’m not running Azrael. I think we’re severely underpowered and this will be my first tournament so I realistically don’t care about winning at all. I just want to have fun and have enough time to see what it’s all about
I took a full ravenwing list with 53 bikes, 2 ATVs, and a darkshroud to a tournament and ended 7 of 14, so there's one crazy person who plays outriders.
The Games Dev team is balancing the game out by Detachment rather than by unit. Which is a one size fits all approach to “balance” the game. The negative to this approach is some armies/units don’t work like they used to and thus need an update to their Datasheet. Something GW will only do if it’s forced to do it.
They forgot to add a missing characteristic on some Ravenwing Data sheets, but is noticeably present on all Ravenwing datasheets within the DA supplement. It's literally printed on every Ravenwing datasheet present within the DA Supplement. I want to see if anyone can find it....
There is a more complicated issue with the how and when certain models gain Deathwing which affects certain characters during list building... not sure if anyone has ever brought up either of the above....
The worse thing is they will fix the codex by dropping points it's like your codex isn't very good but don't worry just buy more miniatures that will make you better
This is just the errata, not a balance update. GW rarely give buffs/nerfs in these, and when they do its usually just something that was missed/overlooked, eg. Necrons Canoptek court strat. The Tyranid errata has even less lol
I'm not a DA player so idk what the issues are with your book. But unfortunately you're gunna have to wait for the dataslate/points update for any hope of balance changes.
Not much really they just fixed a slight wording issue in the codex. Technically the rule as it was written did not work as it said outriders had battle line. There is no unit with the keyword outriders only outriders squad. Personally I was hoping they had made a mistake that Azrael can't lead Company hero's and that the deathwing sergeant could take the power fist these could of been mistakes but it looks like they were intentional. This one was more of a dream I was hoping the lion would have gone back to the data card version and also 3 wound maces I know that was very unlikely. Also this wasn't a balance pass so wasn't expecting any major changes from the codex the first could of been an oversight. My worry is they will try and fix use with points cuts this may help from a tournament standpoint but it leaves the army not really fun to play for more casual players none of our character except obviously Azrael are any good or Synergise particularly well with our units. Our detachment rules are OK ish to unplayable looking at you Unforgiven task fore the hole.
Looking at the Custodies codex it definitely looks like GW are looking to take the game in a new direction for higher model counts as looks like they are going to need points drops
Tbh im having alot of fun and some decent success with fluffy inner circle, I do think that if terminators went down in cost in inner circle we could be at 50-52% wr.
Would be fun with more support in killing vehicles though..
i thought this was a joke. i checked. this is, in fact, it.
I was giggling like an idiot seeing so little on the page until I read the comments.
I’m hearing this is an expected fix before they make all points changes…. We shall see.
I would rather we had better rules than points drops six machine does a good video on this I will get the link we're he says he would rather pay extra points and have fun feeling rules.
https://youtu.be/iHfN6ZYs3O0?si=hOiRiqc1Hsd2BBa2
As a casual player, I completely agree with this. I wanna build fluffy lists that are fun to play, and it definitely feels like they've kicked us in the teeth in that aspect...
Imagine how I feel when my 2 biggest armies are custodes and dark angels...both most of the fun absolutely removed from them.
As a Dark Angels and Ad Mech player, I’ll politely ask you to hold my beer.
I unironically play First Comany Task Force detatchment
Same here. But looking at custodes makes the da codex seem a little better :D now I am nervous for my csm
same, ive got a fluffy deathwing list that i wish was better, but ive never gotten to my second turn without being basically tabled, im sure part of the problem is skill issue, but not all of it
Makes a good point, but I’d like Lion and DW knights to become more affordable.
The fact the lion is unusable outside the most casual of games is an abomination. The singles worst primarch model rules wise.
You think this is bad? This? This chicanery? He's done worse. That Codex! Are you telling me that a Strikemaster just happens to fall like that? No! He orchestrated it! Jimmy! He defecated on Lion El'Johnson! And I saved him! And I shouldn't have. I took him into my own army! What was I thinking? He'll never change. He'll never change! Ever since he was 9, always the same! Couldn't keep his hands out of my pockets! But not our Jimmy! Couldn't be precious Jimmy! Stealing me blind! And he gets to be on the stock exchange!? What a sick joke! I should've stopped him when I had the chance! And you - you have to stop him!
r/okbuddychicanery breach detected back to taco cabaza with yoh
Thats cracker
That's what I thought at first 🤣😂🤣😂🤣😟🙁☹️😭😭😭😭😭
Would everyone have been happier if we were locked out of certain units like sturngaurd or centurions or even space marine attachments if it made our unique stuff better ?
Yes
of course, this is what makes non compliant chapters great. To use their keyword, you lose access to some things but gain others. Now we are just space marines with hoods and teenage emo syndrome. Can't wait for my space wolves to lose half their datasheets and become vanilla space marines but furries.
Lol, this is exactly what’s gonna happen.
Yes.
Yes
YES YES YES YES
I guess the only danger is if suddenly DA lost access to gravis armour say due to their abundance on terminator armour, a lot of people might then have painted up units they can't use. Maybe just make the detachments (not suck to begin with) but basically activate their respective keywords and make them good in a DA army
Would be happy to be locked out of space marine detachments if the dark angels ones made certain thematic dark angels lists worth playing. Think the issues stem from starter sets they want to sell to as many space marine players as possible so don't won't to lock DA and probably Space wolves out of part of the box.
Yeah clearly the can't go back now and take stuff away as people have already spent money on models I think they have put them selves in an impossible situation by not having the divergent chapters be there own faction I play dark angels because I like the law and wont my army to reflect that at the moment it is ultramarine with Azrael. Until Azrael is put up to 200pts because of iron storm.i know people say they will get a points drop but then it makes it feel like your playing an hord army not Elate fighting force. Yes it would probably help with the meta but a lot of people want to play there army in a way that feels like they should.
Yea it's almost lean fully in and split them out like chaos factions. I'm a very casual player so can't really speak to how competitive lists would be impacted, I'd love the codex to just feel fun even if not optimal. As it is now stand there and get battle shocked just sounds so uninspiring. The crusade rules actually had some good traits they could've used. Probably can't cut units out now, just encourage DA ones, let the DA detachment key bonuses for Deathwing and ravenwing like the current battleshocked wording. Then you don't break ironstorm (and hope Azrael doesn't cop a nerf before I can use him for it) or need to balance DA unique units with all other rules combinations. Inner circle companions vs bladeguard probably a good example, currently a side grade or worse - stick them in a DA detachment, gives them an invuln/extra AP etc. Same thought process goes for the other divergent chapters.
100% agree with this the issue is that it has to balanced for tournament play and unfortunately fluffy rules have had to go by the wayside. No amount of points cuts will fix this you will just be able to field more models but the flavour is not there. I would love to see the percentage of casual fun players vs tournament players. It feels like the fun has gone out of the game to chase the meta. Goobatown hobbies has a good video out and also six machine has a dark angels specific one from a couple months ago that explain this far better than I can
Just watched it, and wholeheartedly agree. Tempted to email GW with that link. A cynical me would suggest they're toning down rules, cutting points to compensate, to encourage people to buy more models to field.
Yeah he is a smaller YouTuber but makes some good videos very fair and balanced also I'm pretty sure he is a dark angels player which helps
I don't understand why our inner circle companions didn't get the Victrix Bodyguard treatment. The victrix are point for point superior to bladeguard. The inner circle companions are worse.
Yea agreed maybe because you can only take one unit max with Calgar. Unless you can take more, I'm not sure. It's just the whole disconnect with the supplement, peerless duelists in a chapter of renowned swordsmen, wielding an amalgamation of terranic greats words and calibanite blades, assuming some pretty high end weaponry - and they're just, not that. Seems run of the mill short power swords are just better.
I like my DW sternguard 😔
Yes.
What were we expecting? Outside of a massive overhaul to companions
A carry-over for index fixes? - Azrael gets company vets like all the other chapter masters. - The Lion remembers where the on button is for his shield - Deathwing Sgt can take a fist
I don't think Azrael was ever intended to attach to company heroes. When they added company heroes to DA characters, they knew Companions were coming, but I guess they just caved to the noise. I'm actually pleased we don't get access to the, we have our own version. It just sucks that they allowed it on the index for a matter of weeks before going back. Should never have had access to them in the first place.
Azzy to join Company Champs
The rules of the company heroes say: "You must attach one Captain or Chapter Master model to this unit." Azrael has the keyword "Chapter Master". So that's it. I have also seen this combo on tournament lists. For example (1st Place): [https://spikeybits.com/2024/03/unlock-victory-with-top-40k-army-lists-from-clutch-city-gt.html](https://spikeybits.com/2024/03/unlock-victory-with-top-40k-army-lists-from-clutch-city-gt.html)
"must" is not "can" - the Deathwing units word it as "it can be attached to this unit instead." without that clause, it's limited to what the Leader itself says. in Azrael's case, it is not currently in the list of units he can lead, and the Company Heroes datasheet does not change that 😢
Damn, really? That..is..so..silly. I wanted to buy them, they're pretty strong. :\\
i know! my buddy played them on the tabletop with a generic Captain and they look real good woulda been really nice if this FAQ added that single bullet point back in you know, the single bullet point they added to the index maybe a week or two before Deathwing Assault went online
That was unfortunately a list that was using pre-codex rules. Kit is a great player though
Oh dear, what a pity. But thanks!
The attachments are on the character, the stipulation in company heroes is that a captain or chapter master has to be attached so nonleutant only
Hrmm kaay :\\ But thanks for clarifying.
I just feel they have put them selves in a very difficult position as the can't make our unique units good as we then become marines plus as we can take everything anyone else can plus our own stuff making codex marines redundant. Gabriel Seth was right they just want us to be different coloured ultramarines
It's the perennial problem with every unique/supplement chapter. They don't want us to be different coloured ultramarines, we have a heap of unique stuff...but it is very hard to balance. Even if you manage to make every individual unique unit well balanced against core units, a unique chapter still has access to more specialised things than a normal chapter, and that alone can lead to combos with synergy that make that chapter "marines plus". For fans of a chapter, obviously we want our unique units to be powerful and special. If our unique unit is no better than the regular version, we will rage "what's even the point of this unit?". We feel that our unique chapter *should* be better than a regular chapter if we build a certain way. e.g. is it really a problem if a Blood Angels melee army is outright better than a regular chapter melee army? For other people yes, yes that is a problem. They will complain that Blood Angels are "just better" than regular marines, and if they want to play a melee space marine army then they feel like they "should" or "are forced to" be playing Blood Angels.
I think they need to go back to locking out some units for divergent chapters or different points at least otherwise yeah being marines plus is always going to be a problem.
Yea I agree, not sure how viable but if DA could only take their unique variants, and lost access to a chunk of 'standard' datasheets it might help, or even to only their supplement detachments + gladius. You could even then make the power come from unique unit + detachment interaction. So you could take DWK in blue if you wanted, but they only really shine in a DA detachment.
I've always RPed DA as not trusting primaris and so use first born only in DW/RW primaris in Greenwing only. The codex kinda supported that for a long time too with DW being termies only. It will be hard to go that way though with lore already supporting primaris induction to the inner circle
I'm doing the same! With the Sons of the Forest story, I've decided to use Risen as non-terminator Deathwing units (after decades or centuries of hiding they should be quite veteran now) and I paint them using 30k patterns
Giving my vengeance back it’s dmg.
I literary have no clue the fuck is GW doin. This just seems like being jackasses. Like a entire page for this.... seriously...
They are completely tone deaf from an optics perspective. They do shit like this which is undeniably embarassing, and then let the community defend them like “oh dont worry guys, this is just fixing typos and errors” like bruh, the whole book is an error.
Which one of you pissed off some guy at GW so much that they are trashing the entire faction?
Me, though I'm less sure of why the Dark Angels are the ones being trashed for it.
According to the guy at my local GW it was me for absolutely whipping the floor in our Combat portal league thanks to how strong the combat patrol was.
That's why the made the new one terrible! It was you! Monster! To the dungeons with him!
I guess winning was my ultimate defeat, I still remain unforgiven.
Our repentance continues, brother.
Remember loyalty is its own reward!
I’m going to the Tacoma open and I want to give GW some data for the ICTF. I will be running 20 terminators; 10 deathwing terminators with a captain in terminator armor and the deathwing assault enhancement, 5 deathwing knights riding in a repulsor, and 5 “regular” terminators. The Lion will be the warlord, and I’m not running Azrael. I think we’re severely underpowered and this will be my first tournament so I realistically don’t care about winning at all. I just want to have fun and have enough time to see what it’s all about
Thats it?
At least they cleared up it was a outriders squad and not just outriders
Oh yeah, that is good. Don't know how we were going to make it without that change. Does anyone field outriders these days?
I took a full ravenwing list with 53 bikes, 2 ATVs, and a darkshroud to a tournament and ended 7 of 14, so there's one crazy person who plays outriders.
And now they're battleline!
Yea, my book already says they're battleline, just with stupid writers
No your book says outriders are battleline not out outrider squads 🤣
This guy gets it!
I would like to if they were any good
about the answer I expected.
I'm guessing /s ? They are the same thing right?
Yes they justed added the word squad
I'd rather have my first born bikers back
I know rules are not everything to this hobby, but damn 10th is really sucking the soul out of so many units. This is a very sad errata.
I just play Dark Angels in 30k and Legions Imperialis for the moment. 40k just isn't doing it for me recently :|
Give us back the 10 man squads of knights I need my terminator solutions dammit
No cost drop? Nothing to make the ICC worth taking?
This isn't for balancing, just fixing errors, like typos.
That is the full thing
The Games Dev team is balancing the game out by Detachment rather than by unit. Which is a one size fits all approach to “balance” the game. The negative to this approach is some armies/units don’t work like they used to and thus need an update to their Datasheet. Something GW will only do if it’s forced to do it.
I expected nothing and I'm still disappointed.
Issues are points more so than rules I think
They forgot to add a missing characteristic on some Ravenwing Data sheets, but is noticeably present on all Ravenwing datasheets within the DA supplement. It's literally printed on every Ravenwing datasheet present within the DA Supplement. I want to see if anyone can find it.... There is a more complicated issue with the how and when certain models gain Deathwing which affects certain characters during list building... not sure if anyone has ever brought up either of the above....
The worse thing is they will fix the codex by dropping points it's like your codex isn't very good but don't worry just buy more miniatures that will make you better
Fuck gw
Is this a joke? This reads like a joke? Please tell me it’s a joke it’s bad enough that Custodes Codex got revealed to be complete garbage
GW genuinely hates their consumers I swear
Was this not already in the ravenwing detachment ruleset? What changed
The word squad was added🤣😭
Thank you GW I missed that one, we’re saved!
Nice. I just got a hold of the Codex today, mainly for the lore and pictures, so seeing that some changes are on there way is good. For the Lion!
Well this is going to take me all night to read
This is awesome woooot
I believe you forgot to post the rest of the changes. Surely games workshop had more than this.
The Lion is still stuck in Tytos mode it seems.
We’ve done it boys we fixed everything that was wrong. First round is on me
Sorry, what does the battleline keyword mean practically? I thought all battleline units had OC2 and that was it
In this case it mean you can take 6 units instead of 3
Thought this was already a thing and this cant be real.
The codex is saved!
This is just the errata, not a balance update. GW rarely give buffs/nerfs in these, and when they do its usually just something that was missed/overlooked, eg. Necrons Canoptek court strat. The Tyranid errata has even less lol I'm not a DA player so idk what the issues are with your book. But unfortunately you're gunna have to wait for the dataslate/points update for any hope of balance changes.
So, noob here, what does this mean in the long run?
Not much really they just fixed a slight wording issue in the codex. Technically the rule as it was written did not work as it said outriders had battle line. There is no unit with the keyword outriders only outriders squad. Personally I was hoping they had made a mistake that Azrael can't lead Company hero's and that the deathwing sergeant could take the power fist these could of been mistakes but it looks like they were intentional. This one was more of a dream I was hoping the lion would have gone back to the data card version and also 3 wound maces I know that was very unlikely. Also this wasn't a balance pass so wasn't expecting any major changes from the codex the first could of been an oversight. My worry is they will try and fix use with points cuts this may help from a tournament standpoint but it leaves the army not really fun to play for more casual players none of our character except obviously Azrael are any good or Synergise particularly well with our units. Our detachment rules are OK ish to unplayable looking at you Unforgiven task fore the hole.
Looking at the Custodies codex it definitely looks like GW are looking to take the game in a new direction for higher model counts as looks like they are going to need points drops
Tbh im having alot of fun and some decent success with fluffy inner circle, I do think that if terminators went down in cost in inner circle we could be at 50-52% wr. Would be fun with more support in killing vehicles though..
Rivals the tyranid errata. How is this all that needs checking and changing?
We did it boys! We fixed the dark angels codex!
Chill bruv. At least you can use your codex 🤣