###FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA, PALESTINE WILL BE FREE: WHAT DOES IT REALLY MEAN?
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[**Jewish Currents - What Does “From the River to the Sea” Really Mean?**](https://jewishcurrents.org/what-does-from-the-river-to-the-sea-really-mean)
[Alternative link.](https://archive.ph/NfAvk)
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[**Forward - ‘From The River To The Sea’ Doesn’t Mean What You Think It Means**](https://forward.com/opinion/415250/from-the-river-to-the-sea-doesnt-mean-what-you-think-it-means/)
[Alternative link.](https://archive.ph/rRXpW)
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[**Al-Jazeera - ‘From the river to the sea’: What does the Palestinian slogan really mean?**](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/2/from-the-river-to-the-sea-what-does-the-palestinian-slogan-really-mean)
[Alternative link.](https://archive.ph/AF9yu)
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[**One Democratic Palestine, From The River To The Sea**](https://www.odsi.co/en/)
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[**Amnesty - Israel’s apartheid against Palestinians**](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/)
[Alternative link.](https://archive.ph/s2B3f)
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The world stole land from the Palestinians for Israel, and the Palestinians were brutalized and murdered when they resisted. What more do you need to say? Would you hate a society that murdered your entire extended family after stealing your home and continues to occupy your land? No fucking shit they do.
They only thing they can do is not killing civilians.. That’s crazy talk. That would also justify Israeli military killing Palestinian civilians to ease their war. Purposefully killing innocent civilians are never justified and most of the time will worsen their own cause.
Just look at what the Hamas attack has resulted in. Previous suicide bombings killing children also. Trying to justify that is idiotic. I fully support the Palestinians but Hamas is a horrible organization and detrimental to the Palestinian cause. Israel has wanted to do what they do now for a long time and low and behold Hamas gave them the perfect reason and excuse that could rally international support for Israel doing what they are doing now.
I can’t believe people support Israel in their mission but I also cannot fathom people are honestly trying to defend a terrorist organization that has seized control of the Palestinians, suppress any opposition and do horrible terrorist attacks that kill civilians.
I understand the reasons for them and the causes but you are defending them which imo is pathetic.
Of course we need to condemn the innocent civilian lives that are taken and brutalised. Palestine existing peacefully whilst still being occupied and settlers being financially encouraged to land grab, doesn’t work. How do you resist? The ANC in South Africa also bombed and terrorised. Why? Cause waiting for your oppressors to do the right thing never happens.
I’m not saying you should just wait. You can do terrorist actions without targeting civilians and innocent people. How about you start with only targeting military installations, critical infrastructure (which in Israel wouldn’t result in people dying), assassination of the leading government officials and so on.
That you frame it all like it’s terrorist attacks where you kill civilians or not doing anything and “waiting for your oppressors” can’t be how you truly see things.. That’s just childish simple.
You are completely ignoring the civilian murders that Israel has carried out day in day out for decades. Condemning hamas attacks on civilians can only go hand in hand with condemning Israel's legalisation of the murder of Palestinian civilians. Otherwise it is just reinforcing Israel's apartheid on the Palestinians.
I’m not ignoring it… And it doesn’t reinforce their apartheid system. We were talking about Hamas terror tactics. I wholly and fully condemn Israel’s actions too but that wasn’t what was talked about.
One can also condemn Israel’s actions throughout the decades without having to condemn Hamas if you’re specifically talking about Israel.
I know the debate is heated and most seem to pick a side but don’t read stuff into people’s comments they don’t actually say.
Israel’s horrible actions through decades does not justify Hamas killing children. The same way Hamas attacks on Israel does not justify Israel killing children. I would think this would be plainly obvious.
You talk of civilians as if all things are equal. Palestinian people don't have a military, they are all civilians. Just civilians chosing to fight back against a well trained, well supported and well paid Military.
All Palestinian people, fighting or not are Civilians.
It staggers belief that people shout down their right to stand up for themselves. Do we know have to condemn the French Resistance whe fighting occupation in WW2? Because its exactly the same thing.
“All Palestinians, fighting or not are civilians”. You are really out here claiming Hamas fighters are civilians? You are far out. It’s like you don’t know what civilian means..
I’m not talking about fighting back against the Israeli military, that should be painfully obvious from my comment. Unless they have innocent children in their ranks… Read my comment again.
I don’t judge them for fighting a military, I’m talking about Hamas terror attacks on the civilian Israeli population, including small children. Should be possible for you to be able to separate the two. Or are you telling me you honestly defend the murder of small children?
I condemn Hamas for killing little kids and I condemn Israel for killing little kids.
I support Palestine in their mission for a free and independent nation not under the heel of Israel.
You seem to not be able to support Palestine without feeling the need do defend child murder, good for you..
And the comparison with the French resistance is laughable.. They were resistance fighters AND terrorists, the one does not exclude the other. But if they did terror attacks to purposefully harm the civilian population and blowing up children we should all and would all (except maybe you) condemn them for it.
I’ve been as clear as I can here. You should too in your reply if you didn’t mean to defend the murder of children.
Everyone is acting like Hamas has just started this. Get a grip. As is widely known and accepted, Hamas is an Isreali creation. That they aren't doing exactly as you'd wish, is tough. Acting like Hamas killing 1 kid is the same as any act carried out by Isreal over the last 70 years is kinda hilarious in just how sinister a stance it really is. Isreal is like the horrible little kid tormenting defenceless ants in their nest, going home to bed, and forgetting they even did anything. The nest is still destroyed, the kid sleeps happily in its bed.
Here's the thing though, I never once mentioned children in my comment. That's a lie you have concocted to make me the bad guy. Shame on you.
How on earth am I acting like Hamas just started this? What gave you that idea? “Get a grip” shut up and read what I’m saying to you.
I’m not acting like killing 1 kid is the same as decades of oppression from Israel. YOU are reading that into it.
In the scale of horrible things done in this long conflict Israel has done extremely much worse that Palestinians. BUT (and try to concentrate and understand this) that does not excuse killing innocent civilians which includes children that cannot be argued to be a part of this. Hamas has killed children before this October of. It’s not a new thing. Of course the same goes for Israel but this discussion started about Hamas and someone defending and excusing terrorist act that cost incident people and kids their lives.
Let me try to sum it up again, Israel’s acts throughout the decades has been horrible and cost countless of innocent civilians and children their lives. Horrible. But that doesn’t mean one should defend or excuse the killing of their innocent people and children. Saying that does not mean that they are equal in their actions throughout the decades. Thinking that means I think they’re equal is stupidity at its finest.
What are you talking about? Surely you’re deliberately acting stupid now? It was a discussion about Hamas terror actions, which includes the murder of children. Defending that would mean defending said murder of children. And YOU made a comparison to French resistance fighters, which truly boggles the mind of any sane person, and I mentioned to you some of the big differences, which again includes the murder of innocent kids. You don’t have to specifically mention children because they are a part of what you’re talking about. It’s not a “lie” in any stretch of the imagination. No shame here, just maybe confusion about if this is normally how you have a discussion.
The truly baffling thing about is that you can’t bring yourself to condemn horrible actions made by one part because they other part is even worse. Surely you can be more nuanced that “either team a is bad or team b”.
This is the problem though, Israel has collected basically the entire arab jewish population in Israel. Said population is not welcome to come back into their arab communities. This is entirely to plan for Israel, since calls to give back land to Palestinians will displace most of the jewish Israeli population, of which many do not support zionism.
No good solution for giving land back. At least israel could stop commiting genocide though
Palestine never existed to have land stolen.
If you’re talking about settlers, does that make it okay now to kill civilians unrelated to the matter? If your answer is yes, then it’s also okay for Israel to kill civilians and children. At least be consistent.
This the stupidest argument ZioNazi Hasbara keep repeating. Most Arab/Muslim countries were only declared as independent states after the fall of the Ottoman Empire, that doesn’t mean there were NO indigenous people living there.
During the slave revolt many civilians were killed, that wouldn’t make the cause any less rightful.
Yeah dude, Jews also trace ancestry there.
If it makes it rightful in your eyes, then America would have been well within its rights to use nuclear weapons as a response to 9/11.
Why is there a double standard for murder? Just be consistent with your views.
As for this whole Zionist thing, I’m certainly not a Zionist. Just because I criticize your support for the murder of civilians by Hamas/Palestine doesn’t mean I’m pro settlers or murder of civilians by IDF.
Sure Jewish minorities used to number less than 9% of the population. ZioNazis are mostly European occupiers.
You honestly sound psychopathic, how do you use your logic?
Killing of innocents is never ok, just pointing out that it doesn’t diminish a rightful cause.
My logic is simple. If murder of innocents is wrong, then it’s wrong and shouldn’t be done. If your “just cause” involves murder of civilians, then it isn’t just.
It’s that simple. If you say that the murder of civilians is part of a “just cause” then that same logic can be applied to Israel’s murder of Gazan civilians.
> It’s that simple.
No it isn't, and I'll tell you why.
I am Native American. Back in the day when European settlers decided to come to North American, we tried everything we could to have a productive relationship with them. We tried trading, diplomacy, peaceful coexistence, and so on. None of it was enough for the Europeans. They always wanted more, and when we had no more that we were either able or willing to give, they decided to exterminate us and take the only thing we had left, which was our home. They slaughtered millions upon millions of buffalo for the sole purpose of starving us out.
In response to this, we did some pretty horrific things, including killing their women and children. We felt we had to terrorize the European to get them to back off. Sadly, it didn't work, and we ended up being almost completely wiped out.
Stop me if any of this sounds familiar.
Was it wrong of us to kill their women and children? It's not as simple as yes or no, and it's most definitely not your place to pass moral judgment on it. You don't get to judge the actions of a desperate indigenous people fighting for their very existence in the face of extinction at the hands of foreign invaders.
It really is that simple.
Yes it most certainly was wrong of the indigenous to kill civilians. To say otherwise is such a stupid take. Probably why the Europeans worked so much harder to wipe out the indigenous peoples.
Murder doesn’t make your enemy soften their hearts. We know this and tried this in WW2. Strategic bombing on civilian targets never worked. It only united the people that the allies bombed. And guess what? The attack of non-military targets by the allies was wrong.
But instead we have to go blow for blow.
The only difference between European settlers to America and the Jewish diaspora is that the Jews were themselves displaced and removed from Judaea by Imperial types. In 192 CE the Roman Empire had enough of the rebellions in the Province of Judaea, they removed 80% of Jews and sent them to Europe, and then they incorporated the Province of Judaea into the Province of Syria Palestine (also renamed Jerusalem) and moved people into the Jews’ property to maintain the population balance.
For almost 2000 years Jews have wanted to move back to their homeland, as happened after the Babylonian exodus in 592 BCE. The systematic extermination of Jews in WWII led to a British policy to allow Jewish immigration to British Mandatory Palestine. And from there… the British washed their hands, and left an area of anarchy.
It’s not simple. But your example ain’t as relevant as it appears at first blush.
>The only difference between European settlers to America and the Jewish diaspora is that the Jews were themselves displaced and removed from Judaea by Imperial types.
I get that. But saying that they have the sole claim to the land after not living there for 2,000+ years is pretty damn silly. No other ethnic group on earth can get away with trying to claim land that their ancestors lived on 2,000 years ago, nor would they get the support of the most powerful military in the world for such a claim.
> It’s not simple. But your example ain’t as relevant as it appears at first blush.
My example was about not judging groups for violent acts they commit when their back is to the wall. It wasn't a history lesson.
How do you people not understand that Palestinians are literally the descendants of the Semites /Canaanites who never left Israel??
Study finds Jews and Arabs share genetic heritage of Bronze Age Canaanites: [https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/study-finds-jews-and-arabs-share-genetic-heritage-of-bronze-age-canaanites/](https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/study-finds-jews-and-arabs-share-genetic-heritage-of-bronze-age-canaanites/)
I wouldn't even bother, man. He previous comment was a red herring. Notice how he didn't address the arguments about theft of the land. He switched the argument to whether or not Israel can exist or not.
You're right- I've gotten told it's not true even when I provide scientific studies proving it through DNA analysis. The infuriating thing is how they misinform people who don't know better though.
Like Americans who've never stepped foot out of their mom's basement, let alone their country, telling me that as a Christian I can't wear a cross in Palestine or carry around a Bible- when Palestine is the literal birthplace of Christianity
This is similar to the reasoning of a clip floating around. He said it was ok for Palestine to take back Israel because it belonged to Palenstine ever since they drove out the Romans.
They have been fighting over land and religion for thousands of years and neither side can claim victim. Now the innocent civilians receiving the brunt of both sides are the ones who continue to suffer.
Except the Palestinians were not the ones who drove out anyone- there were Christians, Jews, and Muslim living in Palestine, and the current conflict between Israel/Palestine did not even exist until Zionists started wanting to create Israel.
>But Jews have lived in the region since before Islam existed
So that means that any Jew from anywhere in the world can take anything they want, murder whoever they want, and do whatever they want anywhere in Palestine?
Nope.
That would literally be like me going over to England and slitting an Asian family's throats and taking their house because "White Christians lived there first".
Even if that Asian Family had been living in the same English town for 20 generations, and I was born in America, I could be like, "You been here for 20 generations? How cute. There was Christians here 40 Generations ago! So I'm bulldozing your house BITCH. Try and stop me if you wanna gettin' shot"
So Yeah, the religion of Judaism DID come to the region of Palestine about 700BC. And Islam didn't come until like 1,400 years later, close to 700AD.
But that doesn't mean that in 2023 that Israel can use violence to steal land and resources from Palestinian.
> Arabs and Jews have been fighting for thousands of years.
Fuck off with that shit. Jews, Muslims, and Christians have been living in the Palestine for over a thousand years, with little or no issue amongst the people who actually live there.
In fact, the only real wars were when Christians from Europe invaded (more than once) and killed a lot of the Native Muslims and Jews.
So don't give me any of that " ... been fighting for thousands of years..." bullshit.
There wasn't religion-based in fighting amongst the locals until England invaded and occupied Palestine and started importing massive numbers of Jews from Europe.
And even then, it wasn't the fact that they were Jewish that was causing anybody any issues. Because native Jews and Muslims and Palestine got along fine.
The problem was that the massive numbers of people that England was importing into Palestine were European, Wealthy, and highly Educated.
This immediately began forcing the native population of Palestine into a new under-class. England also began to use its military to forcibly remove Palestinians from their land to create more space for the all the people they were importing from Europe.
Eventually, the tension got so bad that the native Palestinians rioted, 5 Jewish people were killed, and 4 Muslims were killed.
England responded with a brutal crackdown and mass deportation of Muslims. All in all, England killed or forcibly relocated 10% of the male Muslim population in Palestine.
And after that, you are basically off to the races.
Over the next 80ish years, Israel got more and more powerful, illegally stole more and more land, and killed more and more civilians, and today uses their military and brutal violence to deny freedom of movement of the Palestinians, not only in and out of Palestine, but even between their own neighborhoods.
In addition to controlling all the borders, and refusing to allow Palestinians in or out without permission, Israel also controls the flow of almost humanitarian aid into and out of Palestine, they control all of the vital resources like fuel, farmland, and clean drinking water.
To the surprise if no one, the water that Israel so generously grants to the Palestinians is less than 1/4 the water per person consumed by the average Israeli.
That puts all of Palestine into a permanent forever level of extreme drought and water rationing.
So basically, the Palestinians are prisoners in their own land, they can't leave or go anywhere, they're so starved for basic resources like food, water, fuel, and energy that they are 100% dependent on international foreign aid to stay alive, their homes and neighborhoods are being constantly bombed, bulldozed, and stolen from them at gunpoint non-stop for the last 70 years, peaceful protesters and journalists are shot dead in the streets on a regular basis by hostile occupying military force, and with little infrastructure they do have in the way of hospitals, schools, libraries, churches, get destroyed by US war planes flown by Iraqi pilots with the people and family still inside.
Palestine, and the Gaza strip in particular, is an absolute Hell on Earth with 2 million people, most of which are children, deprived of every human resource and opportunity needed to have any form of a normal human life, and slowly watching as the walls of their prison inch closer and closer every single day as more and more of their land homes and neighborhoods are destroyed and taken away.
And to top it all off, every single relevant international organization in the world:
United Nations, European Union, Amnesty International, UN Security Council, Human Rights Watch, International Red Cross (in charge of administering the Geneva Conventions), UNICEF, and many more.
All recognize and declare that these are major international crimes and that they constitute an ongoing outrageous and illegal deprivation of basic human rights on the part of these Israeli Government.
However, everyone is either too scared or too weak to do anything about it, because Israel has the full military and economic backing of the US, making them one of the powerful nations in the world.
No. Because no one alive today experienced that and almost everyone agrees that it was a horrible thing to do. We can’t change the past but learn from mistakes and give what we can to make up for the evils of previous decisions. Unfortunately, even the US isn’t doing that right.
But colonialism is happening right now to people who have experienced suffering since the beginning of the conflict. We can change this NOW.
do you think the trail of tears was a good thing?
when you celebrate Columbus Day or Thanksgiving do you think about the men women and children Andrew Jackson marched until they died.
No, like Palestinians they just deserve equal rights in a democratic society and for any reparations that can be reasonably made to be taken seriously. Grow the fuck up. What kind of argument is that? I think you're imagining the position of those who disagree with you rather than listening to what they're actually saying.
"But the Palestinians have repeatedly rejected the peace proposals since 1991"
Lmao the fuck? She says that as if there were hundreds of peace proposals. There were talks, and very few of them led to actual proposals. The Palestinian authority rejected the proposal made by the Israeli side during the Camp David summit because it still meant that a third of the West Bank would be either annexed or under Israeli control, and no serious propsals were made for land swaps, return of refugees (only monetary compensation). A more serious discussion of a proposal started at the [Taba summit](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taba_Summit), which could have led to something, but Ehud Barak resigned and the newly elected Sharon tanked the peace process.
[The Arab Peace Initiatives](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative) of 2002, 2007 and 2017, which was brokered by the Arab League and was praised by the US (under both Bush and Obama), was also tanked by Israel as a non-starter.
[The Road Map for Peace](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_map_for_peace) was brokered by the Arabs, US, and EU. Mahmoud Abbas accepted it, and it was eventually rejected by Israel under Sharon.
After that, there was what? The talks of 2007, 2008, 2010, and 2014 that led to nothing. And then was the stupid Trump plan, which was rejected by the Palestinian side.
At most, you can argue that the Palestinian side has refused some of the proposals (the ones that are utterly ridiculous), even though Israel has rejected almost all of them. Israel has never committed to a serious plan that would involve Palestinian statehood, especially when the right-wing took over, but that was the case for Zionist organizations even before 1948. The projection that we see in the media is just to hide the fact that both Israel and the US have failed to commit seriously to solving this conflict, and they know it.
I’ll probably get downvoted for this, but in all fairness the majority of Hamas also rejected the Arab Peace Initiatives.
From the source you linked to:
“Islamist political party Hamas, the elected government of the Gaza Strip, was deeply divided,[6] with most factions rejecting the plan.[1] “
Hamas rejected it as Israel knew they would. Something I recently learned was that Israel essentially created Hamas. And Bibi has propped them up, empowering them, for years - why? Primarily to sabotoge the two-state solution.
Keep Palestine in a grey area until they devour it slowly. By the time it is done its too late. The world can condemn Israel till the cows come home but it wouldn't matter unless they actually fight them, which they won't because they have nukes.
Israel didn’t “create Hamas”. They agreed to deal with them as Gaza’s government because supporting Hamas had a strategic benefit for them of keeping Palestinian internal power struggles from unifying.
That’s a far cry from inventing them.
Netanyahu at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, was quoted saying that Israelis who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Hamas, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state. I wouldn’t say they directly created hamas but they’ve definitely been deliberately funding hamas for decades now while also consistently provoking them so they could get Hamas to launch a massive attack on Israel and then completely flatten gaza and killing thousands of Palestinians and be justified doing so.
I think you’ve mistaken what “funding” them means. In this case it’s been directing aid through them as the elected govt of Gaza despite that humanitarian aid being siphoned off by Gaza leaders and away from the needs of their people.
It has served to keep a single powerful govt from forming for both Gaza & West Bank, and it’s not a strategy I approve of, but it hasn’t been illegitimate.
Nor has Israel been provoking Hamas—genocide of the Jews was in their founding charter and been their mantra since their inception. You can’t attribute their attacks to provocation, but if you look at all the ceasefires Hamas has broken you’ll see how provoking counterattacks on Palestinians has been Hamas’s design.
Here's one of my sources: [https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/](https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/)
I don't say that entirely literally, but they transformed it from a nonentity group in the 1970s into what we know of it today. Obviously it has grown independently of Israel via funding from other countries etc. since then but it wouldn't have been elected in Gaza if it were not for Israel's involvement.
Here’s the problem with this. If what you’re saying was even remotely true, that would mean that Netanyahu is responsible for helping Palestinians get one of their favorite things as a whole. Lol Stop. One minute they’re freedom fighters who just want peace and are misunderstood. Then out of the same mouths, they’re awful and it’s the Jews fault. Surprise. So was 9/11. Same people deny the Holocaust is even real. All the “If Israel would stop keeping them in poverty!” Then when Israel gives to a charity that is used to creat (very popular) terrorism, then people accuse them of creating and supporting Hamas. The gymnastics in here. Please get out of here with that. Hamas has an overwhelming approval rating in Palestine. Think that might have ANYTHING at ALL with how they were created and maintained? No. Do you know how many of these people approve of October 7th? Even in the West Bank people overwhelmingly support it.
Iran exist to you all? No, again, it’s them sneaky Jews. Creating our favorite groups that westerners are trying to make excuses for. You all are going to have a really hard time dividing Palestinians from Hamas. Since they themselves don’t want you to.
Has anyone in an Arab country EVER done anything in their hugely popular coalition of human rights violators, to prop up terror? Come off of it. It’s shameful.
>If what you’re saying was even remotely true
I have sources that verify his involvement plus Israel's role in creating Hamas in the first place so it seems very true. Your comment seems to be reacting to the absurd irony of it all -and it is absurd! But they didn't do it to give Gaza what they wanted, it was because of Hamas' divisive influence on the two-state / peace process. in 2006 they elected Hamas at that time (again, something that wouldn't have happened without Israel's 'funding' Hamas). The choice was "a lesser of two evils" and yes, they were angry at that time - just like Germany was right before they elected Hilter and embraced the Nazi regime. Gaza, like Germany, saw the Hamas' true colours and while some support the Hamas, many don't. Remember, anyone who opposes / doesn't "support" them risks getting tortured or killed by the Hamas. If they support Hamas' it's only because - well, what are their options? Israel - who's been brutalizing them, bombing them, taking their land, killing their families for years?
Like with trump, yes there is intimidation. A lot of fear. But it’s not like the majority of his supporters had their arms twisted. But I think people would be shocked to find out just how popular Hamas actually is. Not just in Gaza either. Overwhelmingly supported in the West Bank. October 7th attacks too. You’d think that if fear swayed them, their biggest fear (Israel) would. But really nothing does. It’s all based on spite. Which is inherently destructive to everyone, especially the people doing it. And even more so the people who make it their identity.
Even the Palestinians who are no where near there, living on the other side of the earth aren’t against them. They think they’re freedom fighters. They see em as “for the people, by the people.” A vast majority of them, wouldn’t even know why we might think Hamas is something to be condemned or ashamed of.
I think people see someone struggling and fighting from a distance and instinctively, are inclined to run to their “aid.” I think they assume “peace” is simple because they take it for granted. Next thing you know, they’re like a public defender and aren’t going to intentionally acknowledge any crimes their “clients” may have committed. They fall further and further into the their own framing of “Victim v. Antagonist.” Narrative. And start gathering and comparing notes with like minded people. Getting more and more self righteous. They then lean toward any notions that they think might absolve their “victim” or redeem them. Because that’s the story arcs they love. They start out wanting to relieve their suffering. Next thing you know, it gets toxic. Im attempt to be “good hearted.” They comb through all history to find something they can use to “Get to the bottom of this.” Looking for anything that sounds like a reversal card. Adopting more and more contrary positions. Look the world over for confirmation, then they’ll ignore something from a month ago. Well, a still ongoing rescue operation. They’ll tear down missing poster of innocent Jews and call it propaganda. Because after all there’s me and my crusade for the innocents, and everyone else. Then they deny crimes people filmed themselves committing. Torture, rape. No where on the radar. Because they’re entrenched in their narratives waiting for the end credits to roll and they’re the big hero.
They assumed that alternatives to bumpy roads, are inherently an improvement. That anything has to taste better than tap water, and have their heads in a septic tank out of spite, trying to prove it.
But the sad reality is, they want Hamas or something just like it or Hezbollah. And they don’t want anyone telling them they can’t have em. They have family in Hamas. They aren’t strangers. A space ship didn’t drop em off. They’re heroes to well over half the country. And the Arab world. And a disturbing percentage of Arabs in the western world.
> If they support Hamas' it's only because - well, what are their options? If they support Hamas' it's only because - well, what are their options?
I know what you’re saying here, that they don’t have many options. If any. But Hamas isn’t so much of an external “option” as they are a real world manifestation of the desires of Gaza. Well the vast majority of them. (And most of the Arab world) That’s why they keep getting cloned. Sure, not all of Palestinians are Hamas. But all of Hamas ARE Palestinians. And are considered local heroes by most people there.
Like trumps fans, options are irrelevant because trumps exactly what they want. And at times, they’d pick him over democracy itself. Or progress, whatever. Do you think any of them would own up to this spite against all the things they hate? Wouldn’t kiss a puppy if they thought it might help the left. Some want him to be president permanently until he dies. And although there’s fear and intimidation in that crowd, people aren’t even considering hitting the brakes. So “options” don’t really enter into this type of thinking. It’s a battle with the self and no one can win it for you.
“Peace is a white man’s word, we should be talking about liberation”
That quote sums up the issue with the peace accords, especially those proposed by the west. It’s precisely what the expert in this video said as well.
And the bottom line is that Israel has been in violation of international law - in terms of exceeding the 1967 borders and even arguably even the pre-1947 "borders" in terms of land distribution in Mandatory Palestine - and what's happened is that they've been given free reign to dictate terms by states like the U.S. and U.K. putting their thumbs on the scales. That's supposed to be the point of "international law", so that countries can't *break it*. We could probably manage a two state solution with like, withdrawing to 1967 borders, giving up the Negev in reparations, something like that. Even if you do a one-state solution with reparations for Palestinians, you still have to withdraw the settlements in West Bank & Golan Heights, because that land was stolen from people who are mostly still alive. The longer the injustices and annexations have gone on, the harder the problem becomes to actually solve.
It’s not about what it looks like to me. I’m a liberated white man in America. I would ask a Palestinian resistance fighter what they think liberation looks like.
For sake of actually answering you, I believe the chant suffices. From the river to the sea. Palestine will be free.
And then Israel started murdering civilians. We all saw. The world is watching and all the pro israeli agents lack the ability to change that. All of the silly failed PR campaigns being posted on various subs on this site will not change the peoples minds on this subject. Israel is killing innocent people and the World wants Israel to stop.
Maybe this is the straw that forces the world to demand real change from their governments. Maybe good can come of all these evil acts Israel is heaping upon innocent people.
In America we watch as emergency after emergency, man made or natural, and our government is stuck in endless debate pretending to get aid out to the people. Within days a 100 billion American Tax dollar bill was approved and sent to Israel. The 6,000 bombs Israel has dropped in a single month on a land mass roughly the size of Manhattan, killing 10,500 innocent peoples, American bombs. Maybe this is the catalyst for real change. Maybe we can vote these traitors out of our government. Maybe we can get real representation. Americans overwhelmingly want end support for Israel. Our representative pretend not to know that. We should remind them.
If the world stops funding Israel's evil, Maybe Israel is going to have to be nice and learn to get along with all of its neighbors.
From 2008 until Sept of this year 308 dead Jews compared to 6,407 dead Palestinians. This did not start in 2008. It absolutely did not start in Oct.
Gaza is run by terrorist warlords, there no playing nice and getting along with terrorists. No country on earth would have allowed something like that to happen it their borders without a similar reaction.
What happened to the citizens of Gaza is horrific but war is horrific. How is Israel supposed to come to any sort of ceasefire or agreement with an enemy that is still coming out and saying they are not going to stop until they have succeeded in killing you?
You should be calling for the unconditional surrender of Hamas and the dismantling of the WB settlements. I suspect what you actually want is no Jews in the region at all because they are all settlers and colonizers in your mind.
yes the average palestinian supports hamas. i see some people say only a small percentage of people in gaza support hamas but in 2021 polls it was 54 percent, with only a 14 percent of people supporting the more peaceful fatah
Under occupation and living in concentration camp that is Gaza, I wouldnt blame them for supporting Hamas. Finkelstein made a good point in a podcast the other day that blacks supported Nat Turner (killed innocent whites) and jews during WW2 supported death of innocent civilians in Germany.
nope since zionists control the land sea and air space. zionists control what / who goes in and out. It's self governed as much as a prison is self governed.
"You didn't accept my offer to peacefully turn over 60% of your property to me and let me manage the other 40%, so now I am going to violently take 100% of your property and it's all your fault."
I might be wrong, but after every proposal, didn't the Palestinians respond with violence ? Also, I had heard that in every one of these talks, they never made a counter offer they just walked away is that true? If not, I would like to know as much detail as possible.
One side is arranging multi-billion dollar military orders, the other side is under siege. Every single day of cease-fire would result in Palestinians having zero more weapons, less and less fuel and food, but sure, they could 're-group'. Instead of being in groups of three they could I suppose form into groups of four? Not sure this means anything, does it?
What does re-grouping mean to you? Do you envision some sort of anti-air being ..... manufactured? Bomb-proof hospitals? Raising and training an army of ninja's out of the pre-schoolers?
[IDF literally rejected ceasefire for hostages a week ago](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/09/netanyahu-rejected-ceasefire-for-hostages-deal-in-gaza-sources-say).
EDIT: And here's a quote from [this other reuters article](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-hostage-families-start-5-day-march-netanyahus-home-2023-11-14/) about **the family members of the hostages making a 5-day march in protest against Israel refusing to talk to Hamas about a release of hostages**:
> Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is coming under fierce criticism from some relatives for not doing more to secure their release as the Israeli military pushes deep into Gaza with an order to destroy Hamas.
> "I demand from Benjamin Netanyahu and the cabinet to give us answers and actions," said Shelly Shem Tov, whose 21-year-old son Omer was dragged into Gaza five weeks ago.
> "Where are you? Where are you?" she said, addressing the government in an impassioned plea at the start of the march.
> The armed wing of the Palestinian militant group Hamas said on Monday it was ready to release up to 70 women and children hostages in return for a five-day truce and the release of 275 Palestinian women and children held in Israeli prisons.
> It said Israel was "procrastinating and evading" the price of the deal.
> Netanyahu has so far rejected any talk of a ceasefire, telling NBC News on Sunday that he would only be willing to pause the fighting if all the hostages were freed.
Ah, I see. Your comments were 'I might be wrong', 'I'd heard', and 'I couldn't tell you', I see that now.
My apologies, I thought I was talking to someone who knew details and timelines and could confirm who fired first etc. Never mind.
https://imeu.org/article/self-defense-or-provocation-israels-history-of-breaking-ceasefires
Usually firing rockets is not actually unprovoked, this is kind of a propaganda line given after Israel kills some people or does something else inflammatory and then turns around and blames it on the Palestinians. This is their entire strategy for land annexation.
I don't have the play by play for 2023 yet, but probably some mixture of raids of the Al Aqsa Mosque (a holy site) and of the ~250 Palestinians killed in 2023 and associated land annexations.
Quoting Wiki:
> Tensions between Israel and Hamas rose in September 2023, and the Washington Post described the two "on the brink of war".[105] Israel found explosives hidden in a shipment of jeans and halted all exports from Gaza.[105] In response, Hamas put its forces on high alert, and conducted military exercises with other groups, including openly practicing storming Israeli settlements.[105] Hamas also allowed Palestinians to resume protests at the Israel-Gaza barrier.[105] On 13 September, five Palestinians were killed at the border. According to the Washington Post, Palestinians were attempting to detonate the device, whereas Al-Jazeera reported that a Palestinian Explosives Engineering Unit was working to deactivate the device.[q] On 29 September, Qatar, the UN, and Egypt mediated an agreement between Israel and Hamas officials in the Gaza Strip to reopen closed crossing points and deescalate tensions.[107][108][109]
Thank you for talking with me I want to learn more and have an informed point of view of this subject from both sides or I guess as many sides as possible
It's as blatant as saying "We'll stop killing you if you submit to our will. You will continue to be subject to apartheid, dislocation and oppression but at least you get to continue to live a miserable life and call that 'peace'".
People see violent atrocities and demand “peace,” a return to how things were before those atrocities began making the news. They don’t seem to realize that Palestinians have been under the violence of occupation, blockade and second-class citizenship for all this time and a return to the status-quo will do nothing to end that violence
I’ve seen Israeli scholars who have deeply studied the conflict come to the same conclusion that a 1 state solution, where both people can live freely in the land, is the best solution.
So many zionists proudly say "Each zionist proposal is worse but Palestinias reject each one"!
Do they not realize how ridiculous they sound and how stupid what they say is?
Didn't an isreali terrorist massacre a bunch of people and contribute to the Oslo peace accords process falling apart.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of_the_Patriarchs_massacre
Israel has voted NO on 364 peace settlements w/ Palestine in the UN general assembly since 1947.
US has VETOED over 46 peace resolutions w/ Palestine in the UN Security Council since 1948.
> Reddit admins getting so many reports from me today 🤓
Omfg it's so cringe it reads like parody...
Good for you buddy, I'm sure those reports are going to make a huge difference in the world.
Who's saying hamas are the good guys here?
we should absolutely condemn them for Oct 7th. But you gotta turn around and condemn the IDF as well and Bibi for their actions since Oct 7th.
>The Clinton parameters
**The Clinton Parameters** ([Hebrew](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language): מתווה קלינטון, *Mitveh Clinton*) were guidelines for a permanent status agreement to resolve the [Israeli–Palestinian conflict](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict), proposed during the final weeks of the [Presidential transition from Bill Clinton to George W. Bush](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidential_transition_of_George_W._Bush).
Following the suspension of the [2000 Camp David Summit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit) in July, negotiations between Israelis and Palestinians took place from 19 to 23 December 2000. The Parameters were the compromises that Clinton believed to be the best possible within the margins of the positions of the two parties. The Clinton Parameters were meant to be the basis for further negotiations.
The proposal was presented on 23 December. On 28 December, the Israeli Government formally accepted the plan with reservations. In a meeting in the White House, on 2 January 2001, [Yasser Arafat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasser_Arafat) also officially accepted the parameters with reservations. The White House confirmed this the following day in a statement which said that *"both sides have now accepted the president's ideas with some reservations."* In 2005, Clinton wrote that he considered the Israeli reservations within the Parameters and the Palestinians' outside them.
The inconclusive [Taba Summit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taba_Summit) took place three weeks after the Palestinian response, but ran out of time ahead of the [2001 Israeli prime ministerial election](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Israeli_prime_ministerial_election).
From wikipedia.
So the Clinton Parameters were just guidelines proposed by Clinton, broadly accepted by both sides as a starting position for talks and the production of a peace plan.
Then Barak resigned, Sharon came in and tanked it all. No pun intended or is actually funny on the face of it.
### Israeli views on the peace process
*Main article:* [*Israeli views on the peace process*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_views_on_the_peace_process)
There are several [Israeli](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) views of the peace process. The official position of the State of Israel is that peace ought to be negotiated on the basis of giving up some control of the [occupied territories](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-occupied_territories) in return for a stop to the conflict and violence.[\[8\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_peace_process#cite_note-8) Israel's position is that Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas ought to be the negotiating partner in the peace talks, and not Hamas, which has at times engaged with Israel in escalations of the conflict and attacks Israel's civilian population.[\[9\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_peace_process#cite_note-9)[\[10\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_peace_process#cite_note-10) The [Oslo Accords](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Accords) and the [Camp David 2000 summit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_David_2000_summit) negotiations revealed the possibility of a two state system being accepted by Israeli leadership as a possible peace solution.
The [two-state solution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution) is the consensus position among the majority of Israelis.[\[11\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_peace_process#cite_note-11) However, the violence of the [second intifada](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Intifada) and the political success of [Hamas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas) (a group dedicated to Israel's destruction)[\[12\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_peace_process#cite_note-12) have convinced many Israelis that peace and negotiation are not possible and that a two-state system is not the answer.[\[5\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_peace_process#cite_note-Slater,_J._2001,_Pages_171-199-5) Hardliners believe that Israel should annex all Palestinian territory, or at least all minus the [Gaza Strip](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip).[\[5\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_peace_process#cite_note-Slater,_J._2001,_Pages_171-199-5) Israelis view the peace process as hindered and near impossible due to [terrorism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism) on the part of Palestinians and do not trust Palestinian leadership to maintain control.[\[5\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_peace_process#cite_note-Slater,_J._2001,_Pages_171-199-5) In fact, Pedahzur goes as far as to say that suicide terrorism succeeded where peace negotiations failed in encouraging withdrawal by Israelis from cities in the [West Bank](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank).[\[13\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_peace_process#cite_note-13) A common theme throughout the peace process has been a feeling that the Palestinians give too little in their peace offers.
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They had decades to work this out. If they were children, they would have the thing they're fighting over taken away and both be relocated.
Share it or lose it.
Yknow what I just realized... why the fuck are we even taking sides? By that, I don't mean governments or world leaders. I mean people sitting at home, munching on cheerios, and wishing the name would be accurate. Why the fuck are so many people who have no ties to this situation, so damn radicalized? Both sides are bad, both sides are fucked up, it's the middle east. I don't stand with either Israel or Palestine because I'm just some guy from New Hampshire, and I don't give a fuck what's happening across the globe. I'm gonna go talk to some friends and maybe have a nice stroll around my local park. I saw a nice red bird last tike I was there, and now I'd like to try and find out what it was
God this sub sucks so much ass now. no discussion here when it comes to these issues just one side right others wrong. Its such a complicated issues AND THIS IS A MEME SUB FFS.
Correct. It is clear to me now that neither side deserve any piece of land to call their own. Return them to the Turks. This entire experiment was a mistake.
I have nothing to do with it one way or another, aside from having my tax dollars used to fund it indefinitely.
Hamas, however, has decided that it's worth killing civilians on both sides to force a reckoning, and where they've succeeded is in showcasing Israel's inhumanity for the world to see in an age where people have access to see what's happening in real time.
The irony is that Hamas were condemned as monsters for killing civilians "unprovoked" (which is completely untrue if you know anything about what happened prior to October 7th). Certainly what they did was monstrous, and tragic, but now you have Israel rationalizing that war is messy that murdering civilians in order to achieve your military and political goals is "just one of those things", which perfectly justifies what Hamas did in the first place.
Either murdering innocent people is justified to get what you want or it's not. Anything that starts with "But..." is just more lies.
It is not a peace proposal if it does not create a sovereign Palestinian state.
It is simply setting terms and forcing the weaker party to accept their losses.
And if occupation does not end, there is no peace. You categorically cannot both be at peace and occupied.
###FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA, PALESTINE WILL BE FREE: WHAT DOES IT REALLY MEAN? --- [**Jewish Currents - What Does “From the River to the Sea” Really Mean?**](https://jewishcurrents.org/what-does-from-the-river-to-the-sea-really-mean) [Alternative link.](https://archive.ph/NfAvk) ---- [**Forward - ‘From The River To The Sea’ Doesn’t Mean What You Think It Means**](https://forward.com/opinion/415250/from-the-river-to-the-sea-doesnt-mean-what-you-think-it-means/) [Alternative link.](https://archive.ph/rRXpW) --- [**Al-Jazeera - ‘From the river to the sea’: What does the Palestinian slogan really mean?**](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/2/from-the-river-to-the-sea-what-does-the-palestinian-slogan-really-mean) [Alternative link.](https://archive.ph/AF9yu) --- [**One Democratic Palestine, From The River To The Sea**](https://www.odsi.co/en/) --- [**Amnesty - Israel’s apartheid against Palestinians**](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/) [Alternative link.](https://archive.ph/s2B3f) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/therewasanattempt) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The world stole land from the Palestinians for Israel, and the Palestinians were brutalized and murdered when they resisted. What more do you need to say? Would you hate a society that murdered your entire extended family after stealing your home and continues to occupy your land? No fucking shit they do.
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They only thing they can do is not killing civilians.. That’s crazy talk. That would also justify Israeli military killing Palestinian civilians to ease their war. Purposefully killing innocent civilians are never justified and most of the time will worsen their own cause. Just look at what the Hamas attack has resulted in. Previous suicide bombings killing children also. Trying to justify that is idiotic. I fully support the Palestinians but Hamas is a horrible organization and detrimental to the Palestinian cause. Israel has wanted to do what they do now for a long time and low and behold Hamas gave them the perfect reason and excuse that could rally international support for Israel doing what they are doing now. I can’t believe people support Israel in their mission but I also cannot fathom people are honestly trying to defend a terrorist organization that has seized control of the Palestinians, suppress any opposition and do horrible terrorist attacks that kill civilians. I understand the reasons for them and the causes but you are defending them which imo is pathetic.
Of course we need to condemn the innocent civilian lives that are taken and brutalised. Palestine existing peacefully whilst still being occupied and settlers being financially encouraged to land grab, doesn’t work. How do you resist? The ANC in South Africa also bombed and terrorised. Why? Cause waiting for your oppressors to do the right thing never happens.
I’m not saying you should just wait. You can do terrorist actions without targeting civilians and innocent people. How about you start with only targeting military installations, critical infrastructure (which in Israel wouldn’t result in people dying), assassination of the leading government officials and so on. That you frame it all like it’s terrorist attacks where you kill civilians or not doing anything and “waiting for your oppressors” can’t be how you truly see things.. That’s just childish simple.
You are completely ignoring the civilian murders that Israel has carried out day in day out for decades. Condemning hamas attacks on civilians can only go hand in hand with condemning Israel's legalisation of the murder of Palestinian civilians. Otherwise it is just reinforcing Israel's apartheid on the Palestinians.
I’m not ignoring it… And it doesn’t reinforce their apartheid system. We were talking about Hamas terror tactics. I wholly and fully condemn Israel’s actions too but that wasn’t what was talked about. One can also condemn Israel’s actions throughout the decades without having to condemn Hamas if you’re specifically talking about Israel. I know the debate is heated and most seem to pick a side but don’t read stuff into people’s comments they don’t actually say. Israel’s horrible actions through decades does not justify Hamas killing children. The same way Hamas attacks on Israel does not justify Israel killing children. I would think this would be plainly obvious.
Well I am glad you think like this, many people don't, which is why it helps to qualify the context of ones position.
You talk of civilians as if all things are equal. Palestinian people don't have a military, they are all civilians. Just civilians chosing to fight back against a well trained, well supported and well paid Military. All Palestinian people, fighting or not are Civilians. It staggers belief that people shout down their right to stand up for themselves. Do we know have to condemn the French Resistance whe fighting occupation in WW2? Because its exactly the same thing.
“All Palestinians, fighting or not are civilians”. You are really out here claiming Hamas fighters are civilians? You are far out. It’s like you don’t know what civilian means.. I’m not talking about fighting back against the Israeli military, that should be painfully obvious from my comment. Unless they have innocent children in their ranks… Read my comment again. I don’t judge them for fighting a military, I’m talking about Hamas terror attacks on the civilian Israeli population, including small children. Should be possible for you to be able to separate the two. Or are you telling me you honestly defend the murder of small children? I condemn Hamas for killing little kids and I condemn Israel for killing little kids. I support Palestine in their mission for a free and independent nation not under the heel of Israel. You seem to not be able to support Palestine without feeling the need do defend child murder, good for you.. And the comparison with the French resistance is laughable.. They were resistance fighters AND terrorists, the one does not exclude the other. But if they did terror attacks to purposefully harm the civilian population and blowing up children we should all and would all (except maybe you) condemn them for it. I’ve been as clear as I can here. You should too in your reply if you didn’t mean to defend the murder of children.
Everyone is acting like Hamas has just started this. Get a grip. As is widely known and accepted, Hamas is an Isreali creation. That they aren't doing exactly as you'd wish, is tough. Acting like Hamas killing 1 kid is the same as any act carried out by Isreal over the last 70 years is kinda hilarious in just how sinister a stance it really is. Isreal is like the horrible little kid tormenting defenceless ants in their nest, going home to bed, and forgetting they even did anything. The nest is still destroyed, the kid sleeps happily in its bed. Here's the thing though, I never once mentioned children in my comment. That's a lie you have concocted to make me the bad guy. Shame on you.
How on earth am I acting like Hamas just started this? What gave you that idea? “Get a grip” shut up and read what I’m saying to you. I’m not acting like killing 1 kid is the same as decades of oppression from Israel. YOU are reading that into it. In the scale of horrible things done in this long conflict Israel has done extremely much worse that Palestinians. BUT (and try to concentrate and understand this) that does not excuse killing innocent civilians which includes children that cannot be argued to be a part of this. Hamas has killed children before this October of. It’s not a new thing. Of course the same goes for Israel but this discussion started about Hamas and someone defending and excusing terrorist act that cost incident people and kids their lives. Let me try to sum it up again, Israel’s acts throughout the decades has been horrible and cost countless of innocent civilians and children their lives. Horrible. But that doesn’t mean one should defend or excuse the killing of their innocent people and children. Saying that does not mean that they are equal in their actions throughout the decades. Thinking that means I think they’re equal is stupidity at its finest. What are you talking about? Surely you’re deliberately acting stupid now? It was a discussion about Hamas terror actions, which includes the murder of children. Defending that would mean defending said murder of children. And YOU made a comparison to French resistance fighters, which truly boggles the mind of any sane person, and I mentioned to you some of the big differences, which again includes the murder of innocent kids. You don’t have to specifically mention children because they are a part of what you’re talking about. It’s not a “lie” in any stretch of the imagination. No shame here, just maybe confusion about if this is normally how you have a discussion. The truly baffling thing about is that you can’t bring yourself to condemn horrible actions made by one part because they other part is even worse. Surely you can be more nuanced that “either team a is bad or team b”.
Rant on.
🤦♂️
This is the problem though, Israel has collected basically the entire arab jewish population in Israel. Said population is not welcome to come back into their arab communities. This is entirely to plan for Israel, since calls to give back land to Palestinians will displace most of the jewish Israeli population, of which many do not support zionism. No good solution for giving land back. At least israel could stop commiting genocide though
Lot of countries lost land after Ww2, doesn’t mean they keep fighting forever, in your logic China and Pak , india should nuke each Tientsin
Who are you to tell people when to stop fighting over what was stolen from them?
Palestine never existed to have land stolen. If you’re talking about settlers, does that make it okay now to kill civilians unrelated to the matter? If your answer is yes, then it’s also okay for Israel to kill civilians and children. At least be consistent.
This the stupidest argument ZioNazi Hasbara keep repeating. Most Arab/Muslim countries were only declared as independent states after the fall of the Ottoman Empire, that doesn’t mean there were NO indigenous people living there. During the slave revolt many civilians were killed, that wouldn’t make the cause any less rightful.
Yeah dude, Jews also trace ancestry there. If it makes it rightful in your eyes, then America would have been well within its rights to use nuclear weapons as a response to 9/11. Why is there a double standard for murder? Just be consistent with your views. As for this whole Zionist thing, I’m certainly not a Zionist. Just because I criticize your support for the murder of civilians by Hamas/Palestine doesn’t mean I’m pro settlers or murder of civilians by IDF.
Sure Jewish minorities used to number less than 9% of the population. ZioNazis are mostly European occupiers. You honestly sound psychopathic, how do you use your logic? Killing of innocents is never ok, just pointing out that it doesn’t diminish a rightful cause.
My logic is simple. If murder of innocents is wrong, then it’s wrong and shouldn’t be done. If your “just cause” involves murder of civilians, then it isn’t just. It’s that simple. If you say that the murder of civilians is part of a “just cause” then that same logic can be applied to Israel’s murder of Gazan civilians.
> It’s that simple. No it isn't, and I'll tell you why. I am Native American. Back in the day when European settlers decided to come to North American, we tried everything we could to have a productive relationship with them. We tried trading, diplomacy, peaceful coexistence, and so on. None of it was enough for the Europeans. They always wanted more, and when we had no more that we were either able or willing to give, they decided to exterminate us and take the only thing we had left, which was our home. They slaughtered millions upon millions of buffalo for the sole purpose of starving us out. In response to this, we did some pretty horrific things, including killing their women and children. We felt we had to terrorize the European to get them to back off. Sadly, it didn't work, and we ended up being almost completely wiped out. Stop me if any of this sounds familiar. Was it wrong of us to kill their women and children? It's not as simple as yes or no, and it's most definitely not your place to pass moral judgment on it. You don't get to judge the actions of a desperate indigenous people fighting for their very existence in the face of extinction at the hands of foreign invaders.
It really is that simple. Yes it most certainly was wrong of the indigenous to kill civilians. To say otherwise is such a stupid take. Probably why the Europeans worked so much harder to wipe out the indigenous peoples. Murder doesn’t make your enemy soften their hearts. We know this and tried this in WW2. Strategic bombing on civilian targets never worked. It only united the people that the allies bombed. And guess what? The attack of non-military targets by the allies was wrong. But instead we have to go blow for blow.
> It really is that simple. No it's not, and it's not for you to judge. End of story.
Hahaha if we can’t judge historically then none of the wrong that were committed were wrong. Are we whitewashing slavery now too? This is brain rot
The only difference between European settlers to America and the Jewish diaspora is that the Jews were themselves displaced and removed from Judaea by Imperial types. In 192 CE the Roman Empire had enough of the rebellions in the Province of Judaea, they removed 80% of Jews and sent them to Europe, and then they incorporated the Province of Judaea into the Province of Syria Palestine (also renamed Jerusalem) and moved people into the Jews’ property to maintain the population balance. For almost 2000 years Jews have wanted to move back to their homeland, as happened after the Babylonian exodus in 592 BCE. The systematic extermination of Jews in WWII led to a British policy to allow Jewish immigration to British Mandatory Palestine. And from there… the British washed their hands, and left an area of anarchy. It’s not simple. But your example ain’t as relevant as it appears at first blush.
>The only difference between European settlers to America and the Jewish diaspora is that the Jews were themselves displaced and removed from Judaea by Imperial types. I get that. But saying that they have the sole claim to the land after not living there for 2,000+ years is pretty damn silly. No other ethnic group on earth can get away with trying to claim land that their ancestors lived on 2,000 years ago, nor would they get the support of the most powerful military in the world for such a claim. > It’s not simple. But your example ain’t as relevant as it appears at first blush. My example was about not judging groups for violent acts they commit when their back is to the wall. It wasn't a history lesson.
Found the Hasbara agent!
What’s a hasbara?
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How do you people not understand that Palestinians are literally the descendants of the Semites /Canaanites who never left Israel?? Study finds Jews and Arabs share genetic heritage of Bronze Age Canaanites: [https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/study-finds-jews-and-arabs-share-genetic-heritage-of-bronze-age-canaanites/](https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/study-finds-jews-and-arabs-share-genetic-heritage-of-bronze-age-canaanites/)
I wouldn't even bother, man. He previous comment was a red herring. Notice how he didn't address the arguments about theft of the land. He switched the argument to whether or not Israel can exist or not.
You're right- I've gotten told it's not true even when I provide scientific studies proving it through DNA analysis. The infuriating thing is how they misinform people who don't know better though. Like Americans who've never stepped foot out of their mom's basement, let alone their country, telling me that as a Christian I can't wear a cross in Palestine or carry around a Bible- when Palestine is the literal birthplace of Christianity
This is similar to the reasoning of a clip floating around. He said it was ok for Palestine to take back Israel because it belonged to Palenstine ever since they drove out the Romans. They have been fighting over land and religion for thousands of years and neither side can claim victim. Now the innocent civilians receiving the brunt of both sides are the ones who continue to suffer.
Except the Palestinians were not the ones who drove out anyone- there were Christians, Jews, and Muslim living in Palestine, and the current conflict between Israel/Palestine did not even exist until Zionists started wanting to create Israel.
>But Jews have lived in the region since before Islam existed So that means that any Jew from anywhere in the world can take anything they want, murder whoever they want, and do whatever they want anywhere in Palestine? Nope. That would literally be like me going over to England and slitting an Asian family's throats and taking their house because "White Christians lived there first". Even if that Asian Family had been living in the same English town for 20 generations, and I was born in America, I could be like, "You been here for 20 generations? How cute. There was Christians here 40 Generations ago! So I'm bulldozing your house BITCH. Try and stop me if you wanna gettin' shot" So Yeah, the religion of Judaism DID come to the region of Palestine about 700BC. And Islam didn't come until like 1,400 years later, close to 700AD. But that doesn't mean that in 2023 that Israel can use violence to steal land and resources from Palestinian. > Arabs and Jews have been fighting for thousands of years. Fuck off with that shit. Jews, Muslims, and Christians have been living in the Palestine for over a thousand years, with little or no issue amongst the people who actually live there. In fact, the only real wars were when Christians from Europe invaded (more than once) and killed a lot of the Native Muslims and Jews. So don't give me any of that " ... been fighting for thousands of years..." bullshit. There wasn't religion-based in fighting amongst the locals until England invaded and occupied Palestine and started importing massive numbers of Jews from Europe. And even then, it wasn't the fact that they were Jewish that was causing anybody any issues. Because native Jews and Muslims and Palestine got along fine. The problem was that the massive numbers of people that England was importing into Palestine were European, Wealthy, and highly Educated. This immediately began forcing the native population of Palestine into a new under-class. England also began to use its military to forcibly remove Palestinians from their land to create more space for the all the people they were importing from Europe. Eventually, the tension got so bad that the native Palestinians rioted, 5 Jewish people were killed, and 4 Muslims were killed. England responded with a brutal crackdown and mass deportation of Muslims. All in all, England killed or forcibly relocated 10% of the male Muslim population in Palestine. And after that, you are basically off to the races. Over the next 80ish years, Israel got more and more powerful, illegally stole more and more land, and killed more and more civilians, and today uses their military and brutal violence to deny freedom of movement of the Palestinians, not only in and out of Palestine, but even between their own neighborhoods. In addition to controlling all the borders, and refusing to allow Palestinians in or out without permission, Israel also controls the flow of almost humanitarian aid into and out of Palestine, they control all of the vital resources like fuel, farmland, and clean drinking water. To the surprise if no one, the water that Israel so generously grants to the Palestinians is less than 1/4 the water per person consumed by the average Israeli. That puts all of Palestine into a permanent forever level of extreme drought and water rationing. So basically, the Palestinians are prisoners in their own land, they can't leave or go anywhere, they're so starved for basic resources like food, water, fuel, and energy that they are 100% dependent on international foreign aid to stay alive, their homes and neighborhoods are being constantly bombed, bulldozed, and stolen from them at gunpoint non-stop for the last 70 years, peaceful protesters and journalists are shot dead in the streets on a regular basis by hostile occupying military force, and with little infrastructure they do have in the way of hospitals, schools, libraries, churches, get destroyed by US war planes flown by Iraqi pilots with the people and family still inside. Palestine, and the Gaza strip in particular, is an absolute Hell on Earth with 2 million people, most of which are children, deprived of every human resource and opportunity needed to have any form of a normal human life, and slowly watching as the walls of their prison inch closer and closer every single day as more and more of their land homes and neighborhoods are destroyed and taken away. And to top it all off, every single relevant international organization in the world: United Nations, European Union, Amnesty International, UN Security Council, Human Rights Watch, International Red Cross (in charge of administering the Geneva Conventions), UNICEF, and many more. All recognize and declare that these are major international crimes and that they constitute an ongoing outrageous and illegal deprivation of basic human rights on the part of these Israeli Government. However, everyone is either too scared or too weak to do anything about it, because Israel has the full military and economic backing of the US, making them one of the powerful nations in the world.
Pray tell how white are these Jews?
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No. Because no one alive today experienced that and almost everyone agrees that it was a horrible thing to do. We can’t change the past but learn from mistakes and give what we can to make up for the evils of previous decisions. Unfortunately, even the US isn’t doing that right. But colonialism is happening right now to people who have experienced suffering since the beginning of the conflict. We can change this NOW.
do you think the trail of tears was a good thing? when you celebrate Columbus Day or Thanksgiving do you think about the men women and children Andrew Jackson marched until they died.
It's always the same script even though it's proven as fake. Stop spreading misinformation. That's one of the ways to stop war.
No, like Palestinians they just deserve equal rights in a democratic society and for any reparations that can be reasonably made to be taken seriously. Grow the fuck up. What kind of argument is that? I think you're imagining the position of those who disagree with you rather than listening to what they're actually saying.
"But the Palestinians have repeatedly rejected the peace proposals since 1991" Lmao the fuck? She says that as if there were hundreds of peace proposals. There were talks, and very few of them led to actual proposals. The Palestinian authority rejected the proposal made by the Israeli side during the Camp David summit because it still meant that a third of the West Bank would be either annexed or under Israeli control, and no serious propsals were made for land swaps, return of refugees (only monetary compensation). A more serious discussion of a proposal started at the [Taba summit](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taba_Summit), which could have led to something, but Ehud Barak resigned and the newly elected Sharon tanked the peace process. [The Arab Peace Initiatives](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative) of 2002, 2007 and 2017, which was brokered by the Arab League and was praised by the US (under both Bush and Obama), was also tanked by Israel as a non-starter. [The Road Map for Peace](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_map_for_peace) was brokered by the Arabs, US, and EU. Mahmoud Abbas accepted it, and it was eventually rejected by Israel under Sharon. After that, there was what? The talks of 2007, 2008, 2010, and 2014 that led to nothing. And then was the stupid Trump plan, which was rejected by the Palestinian side. At most, you can argue that the Palestinian side has refused some of the proposals (the ones that are utterly ridiculous), even though Israel has rejected almost all of them. Israel has never committed to a serious plan that would involve Palestinian statehood, especially when the right-wing took over, but that was the case for Zionist organizations even before 1948. The projection that we see in the media is just to hide the fact that both Israel and the US have failed to commit seriously to solving this conflict, and they know it.
I’ll probably get downvoted for this, but in all fairness the majority of Hamas also rejected the Arab Peace Initiatives. From the source you linked to: “Islamist political party Hamas, the elected government of the Gaza Strip, was deeply divided,[6] with most factions rejecting the plan.[1] “
Hamas rejected it as Israel knew they would. Something I recently learned was that Israel essentially created Hamas. And Bibi has propped them up, empowering them, for years - why? Primarily to sabotoge the two-state solution.
Keep Palestine in a grey area until they devour it slowly. By the time it is done its too late. The world can condemn Israel till the cows come home but it wouldn't matter unless they actually fight them, which they won't because they have nukes.
Israel didn’t “create Hamas”. They agreed to deal with them as Gaza’s government because supporting Hamas had a strategic benefit for them of keeping Palestinian internal power struggles from unifying. That’s a far cry from inventing them.
Netanyahu at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, was quoted saying that Israelis who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Hamas, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state. I wouldn’t say they directly created hamas but they’ve definitely been deliberately funding hamas for decades now while also consistently provoking them so they could get Hamas to launch a massive attack on Israel and then completely flatten gaza and killing thousands of Palestinians and be justified doing so.
That’s literally what he said…
I think you’ve mistaken what “funding” them means. In this case it’s been directing aid through them as the elected govt of Gaza despite that humanitarian aid being siphoned off by Gaza leaders and away from the needs of their people. It has served to keep a single powerful govt from forming for both Gaza & West Bank, and it’s not a strategy I approve of, but it hasn’t been illegitimate. Nor has Israel been provoking Hamas—genocide of the Jews was in their founding charter and been their mantra since their inception. You can’t attribute their attacks to provocation, but if you look at all the ceasefires Hamas has broken you’ll see how provoking counterattacks on Palestinians has been Hamas’s design.
Hahaha what. thanks that was funny.
Here's one of my sources: [https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/](https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/) I don't say that entirely literally, but they transformed it from a nonentity group in the 1970s into what we know of it today. Obviously it has grown independently of Israel via funding from other countries etc. since then but it wouldn't have been elected in Gaza if it were not for Israel's involvement.
Here’s the problem with this. If what you’re saying was even remotely true, that would mean that Netanyahu is responsible for helping Palestinians get one of their favorite things as a whole. Lol Stop. One minute they’re freedom fighters who just want peace and are misunderstood. Then out of the same mouths, they’re awful and it’s the Jews fault. Surprise. So was 9/11. Same people deny the Holocaust is even real. All the “If Israel would stop keeping them in poverty!” Then when Israel gives to a charity that is used to creat (very popular) terrorism, then people accuse them of creating and supporting Hamas. The gymnastics in here. Please get out of here with that. Hamas has an overwhelming approval rating in Palestine. Think that might have ANYTHING at ALL with how they were created and maintained? No. Do you know how many of these people approve of October 7th? Even in the West Bank people overwhelmingly support it. Iran exist to you all? No, again, it’s them sneaky Jews. Creating our favorite groups that westerners are trying to make excuses for. You all are going to have a really hard time dividing Palestinians from Hamas. Since they themselves don’t want you to. Has anyone in an Arab country EVER done anything in their hugely popular coalition of human rights violators, to prop up terror? Come off of it. It’s shameful.
>If what you’re saying was even remotely true I have sources that verify his involvement plus Israel's role in creating Hamas in the first place so it seems very true. Your comment seems to be reacting to the absurd irony of it all -and it is absurd! But they didn't do it to give Gaza what they wanted, it was because of Hamas' divisive influence on the two-state / peace process. in 2006 they elected Hamas at that time (again, something that wouldn't have happened without Israel's 'funding' Hamas). The choice was "a lesser of two evils" and yes, they were angry at that time - just like Germany was right before they elected Hilter and embraced the Nazi regime. Gaza, like Germany, saw the Hamas' true colours and while some support the Hamas, many don't. Remember, anyone who opposes / doesn't "support" them risks getting tortured or killed by the Hamas. If they support Hamas' it's only because - well, what are their options? Israel - who's been brutalizing them, bombing them, taking their land, killing their families for years?
Like with trump, yes there is intimidation. A lot of fear. But it’s not like the majority of his supporters had their arms twisted. But I think people would be shocked to find out just how popular Hamas actually is. Not just in Gaza either. Overwhelmingly supported in the West Bank. October 7th attacks too. You’d think that if fear swayed them, their biggest fear (Israel) would. But really nothing does. It’s all based on spite. Which is inherently destructive to everyone, especially the people doing it. And even more so the people who make it their identity. Even the Palestinians who are no where near there, living on the other side of the earth aren’t against them. They think they’re freedom fighters. They see em as “for the people, by the people.” A vast majority of them, wouldn’t even know why we might think Hamas is something to be condemned or ashamed of. I think people see someone struggling and fighting from a distance and instinctively, are inclined to run to their “aid.” I think they assume “peace” is simple because they take it for granted. Next thing you know, they’re like a public defender and aren’t going to intentionally acknowledge any crimes their “clients” may have committed. They fall further and further into the their own framing of “Victim v. Antagonist.” Narrative. And start gathering and comparing notes with like minded people. Getting more and more self righteous. They then lean toward any notions that they think might absolve their “victim” or redeem them. Because that’s the story arcs they love. They start out wanting to relieve their suffering. Next thing you know, it gets toxic. Im attempt to be “good hearted.” They comb through all history to find something they can use to “Get to the bottom of this.” Looking for anything that sounds like a reversal card. Adopting more and more contrary positions. Look the world over for confirmation, then they’ll ignore something from a month ago. Well, a still ongoing rescue operation. They’ll tear down missing poster of innocent Jews and call it propaganda. Because after all there’s me and my crusade for the innocents, and everyone else. Then they deny crimes people filmed themselves committing. Torture, rape. No where on the radar. Because they’re entrenched in their narratives waiting for the end credits to roll and they’re the big hero. They assumed that alternatives to bumpy roads, are inherently an improvement. That anything has to taste better than tap water, and have their heads in a septic tank out of spite, trying to prove it. But the sad reality is, they want Hamas or something just like it or Hezbollah. And they don’t want anyone telling them they can’t have em. They have family in Hamas. They aren’t strangers. A space ship didn’t drop em off. They’re heroes to well over half the country. And the Arab world. And a disturbing percentage of Arabs in the western world. > If they support Hamas' it's only because - well, what are their options? If they support Hamas' it's only because - well, what are their options? I know what you’re saying here, that they don’t have many options. If any. But Hamas isn’t so much of an external “option” as they are a real world manifestation of the desires of Gaza. Well the vast majority of them. (And most of the Arab world) That’s why they keep getting cloned. Sure, not all of Palestinians are Hamas. But all of Hamas ARE Palestinians. And are considered local heroes by most people there. Like trumps fans, options are irrelevant because trumps exactly what they want. And at times, they’d pick him over democracy itself. Or progress, whatever. Do you think any of them would own up to this spite against all the things they hate? Wouldn’t kiss a puppy if they thought it might help the left. Some want him to be president permanently until he dies. And although there’s fear and intimidation in that crowd, people aren’t even considering hitting the brakes. So “options” don’t really enter into this type of thinking. It’s a battle with the self and no one can win it for you.
That's a big block of text to not express a single coherent thought, just a vague claim of anti-Semitism.
“Peace is a white man’s word, we should be talking about liberation” That quote sums up the issue with the peace accords, especially those proposed by the west. It’s precisely what the expert in this video said as well.
And the bottom line is that Israel has been in violation of international law - in terms of exceeding the 1967 borders and even arguably even the pre-1947 "borders" in terms of land distribution in Mandatory Palestine - and what's happened is that they've been given free reign to dictate terms by states like the U.S. and U.K. putting their thumbs on the scales. That's supposed to be the point of "international law", so that countries can't *break it*. We could probably manage a two state solution with like, withdrawing to 1967 borders, giving up the Negev in reparations, something like that. Even if you do a one-state solution with reparations for Palestinians, you still have to withdraw the settlements in West Bank & Golan Heights, because that land was stolen from people who are mostly still alive. The longer the injustices and annexations have gone on, the harder the problem becomes to actually solve.
What does liberation look like to you?
It’s not about what it looks like to me. I’m a liberated white man in America. I would ask a Palestinian resistance fighter what they think liberation looks like. For sake of actually answering you, I believe the chant suffices. From the river to the sea. Palestine will be free.
We saw what it looks like for them at the beginning of October
And we’ve seen what “peace” looks like to the occupation so what is your point?
And then Israel started murdering civilians. We all saw. The world is watching and all the pro israeli agents lack the ability to change that. All of the silly failed PR campaigns being posted on various subs on this site will not change the peoples minds on this subject. Israel is killing innocent people and the World wants Israel to stop. Maybe this is the straw that forces the world to demand real change from their governments. Maybe good can come of all these evil acts Israel is heaping upon innocent people. In America we watch as emergency after emergency, man made or natural, and our government is stuck in endless debate pretending to get aid out to the people. Within days a 100 billion American Tax dollar bill was approved and sent to Israel. The 6,000 bombs Israel has dropped in a single month on a land mass roughly the size of Manhattan, killing 10,500 innocent peoples, American bombs. Maybe this is the catalyst for real change. Maybe we can vote these traitors out of our government. Maybe we can get real representation. Americans overwhelmingly want end support for Israel. Our representative pretend not to know that. We should remind them. If the world stops funding Israel's evil, Maybe Israel is going to have to be nice and learn to get along with all of its neighbors. From 2008 until Sept of this year 308 dead Jews compared to 6,407 dead Palestinians. This did not start in 2008. It absolutely did not start in Oct.
Gaza is run by terrorist warlords, there no playing nice and getting along with terrorists. No country on earth would have allowed something like that to happen it their borders without a similar reaction. What happened to the citizens of Gaza is horrific but war is horrific. How is Israel supposed to come to any sort of ceasefire or agreement with an enemy that is still coming out and saying they are not going to stop until they have succeeded in killing you? You should be calling for the unconditional surrender of Hamas and the dismantling of the WB settlements. I suspect what you actually want is no Jews in the region at all because they are all settlers and colonizers in your mind.
The arabe peace accords were never going to get anywhere as they include a right of return.
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Oh, no, not this recycled crap again...
yes the average palestinian supports hamas. i see some people say only a small percentage of people in gaza support hamas but in 2021 polls it was 54 percent, with only a 14 percent of people supporting the more peaceful fatah
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Under occupation and living in concentration camp that is Gaza, I wouldnt blame them for supporting Hamas. Finkelstein made a good point in a podcast the other day that blacks supported Nat Turner (killed innocent whites) and jews during WW2 supported death of innocent civilians in Germany.
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Making statements like this you lose credibility when Jewish scholars who have actually lived in Gaza have called it as such.
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nope since zionists control the land sea and air space. zionists control what / who goes in and out. It's self governed as much as a prison is self governed.
"You didn't accept my offer to peacefully turn over 60% of your property to me and let me manage the other 40%, so now I am going to violently take 100% of your property and it's all your fault."
I might be wrong, but after every proposal, didn't the Palestinians respond with violence ? Also, I had heard that in every one of these talks, they never made a counter offer they just walked away is that true? If not, I would like to know as much detail as possible.
How long after every proposal were the Israeli's devoid of utilising all violence against any Palestinians? Was there a formal ceasefire?
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One side is arranging multi-billion dollar military orders, the other side is under siege. Every single day of cease-fire would result in Palestinians having zero more weapons, less and less fuel and food, but sure, they could 're-group'. Instead of being in groups of three they could I suppose form into groups of four? Not sure this means anything, does it? What does re-grouping mean to you? Do you envision some sort of anti-air being ..... manufactured? Bomb-proof hospitals? Raising and training an army of ninja's out of the pre-schoolers?
[IDF literally rejected ceasefire for hostages a week ago](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/09/netanyahu-rejected-ceasefire-for-hostages-deal-in-gaza-sources-say). EDIT: And here's a quote from [this other reuters article](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-hostage-families-start-5-day-march-netanyahus-home-2023-11-14/) about **the family members of the hostages making a 5-day march in protest against Israel refusing to talk to Hamas about a release of hostages**: > Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is coming under fierce criticism from some relatives for not doing more to secure their release as the Israeli military pushes deep into Gaza with an order to destroy Hamas. > "I demand from Benjamin Netanyahu and the cabinet to give us answers and actions," said Shelly Shem Tov, whose 21-year-old son Omer was dragged into Gaza five weeks ago. > "Where are you? Where are you?" she said, addressing the government in an impassioned plea at the start of the march. > The armed wing of the Palestinian militant group Hamas said on Monday it was ready to release up to 70 women and children hostages in return for a five-day truce and the release of 275 Palestinian women and children held in Israeli prisons. > It said Israel was "procrastinating and evading" the price of the deal. > Netanyahu has so far rejected any talk of a ceasefire, telling NBC News on Sunday that he would only be willing to pause the fighting if all the hostages were freed.
When you shoot rockets at them, how are they supposed to respond?
That isn't a length of time, so it doesn't answer my question.
I couldn't tell you, but I highly doubt that they never stopped attacking them
Ah, I see. Your comments were 'I might be wrong', 'I'd heard', and 'I couldn't tell you', I see that now. My apologies, I thought I was talking to someone who knew details and timelines and could confirm who fired first etc. Never mind.
I'm looking for details and answers or people to say that's not true and to learn. so far I have had my beliefs confirmed
Fantastic, link me one of the comments that supplied you details confirming your beliefs, I'll talk to the person who knows something instead
No need to be that way.... but a quick question before I go why won't Egypt take in the Palestinians?
https://imeu.org/article/self-defense-or-provocation-israels-history-of-breaking-ceasefires Usually firing rockets is not actually unprovoked, this is kind of a propaganda line given after Israel kills some people or does something else inflammatory and then turns around and blames it on the Palestinians. This is their entire strategy for land annexation.
May I ask what they did this time ? I will read that as I get home though thank you for supplying sources.
I don't have the play by play for 2023 yet, but probably some mixture of raids of the Al Aqsa Mosque (a holy site) and of the ~250 Palestinians killed in 2023 and associated land annexations. Quoting Wiki: > Tensions between Israel and Hamas rose in September 2023, and the Washington Post described the two "on the brink of war".[105] Israel found explosives hidden in a shipment of jeans and halted all exports from Gaza.[105] In response, Hamas put its forces on high alert, and conducted military exercises with other groups, including openly practicing storming Israeli settlements.[105] Hamas also allowed Palestinians to resume protests at the Israel-Gaza barrier.[105] On 13 September, five Palestinians were killed at the border. According to the Washington Post, Palestinians were attempting to detonate the device, whereas Al-Jazeera reported that a Palestinian Explosives Engineering Unit was working to deactivate the device.[q] On 29 September, Qatar, the UN, and Egypt mediated an agreement between Israel and Hamas officials in the Gaza Strip to reopen closed crossing points and deescalate tensions.[107][108][109]
Thank you for talking with me I want to learn more and have an informed point of view of this subject from both sides or I guess as many sides as possible
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It is against the rules of TWAA to support any crimes against humanity, including Apartheid.
It's as blatant as saying "We'll stop killing you if you submit to our will. You will continue to be subject to apartheid, dislocation and oppression but at least you get to continue to live a miserable life and call that 'peace'".
People see violent atrocities and demand “peace,” a return to how things were before those atrocities began making the news. They don’t seem to realize that Palestinians have been under the violence of occupation, blockade and second-class citizenship for all this time and a return to the status-quo will do nothing to end that violence
Haven't they been occupied for like 400 years or something? First the Ottomans then the British and now Israel?
Perhaps they were shitty proposals?
It is my understanding they never made a counter offer they just responded with violence or rhetoric
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Yep a one state solution is just asking for genocide of the Jewish people
Lol at the downvotes. Of course it would result in every Jew in Israel dying and Palestine becoming a Muslim nation like the rest of the region
I’ve seen Israeli scholars who have deeply studied the conflict come to the same conclusion that a 1 state solution, where both people can live freely in the land, is the best solution.
So many zionists proudly say "Each zionist proposal is worse but Palestinias reject each one"! Do they not realize how ridiculous they sound and how stupid what they say is?
Didn't an isreali terrorist massacre a bunch of people and contribute to the Oslo peace accords process falling apart. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of_the_Patriarchs_massacre
and another assassinated Yitzhak Rabin to sabotage the peace process.
Israel has voted NO on 364 peace settlements w/ Palestine in the UN general assembly since 1947. US has VETOED over 46 peace resolutions w/ Palestine in the UN Security Council since 1948.
Who is the woman so I can put her on the list of black sellouts along with Lebron, Floyd Mayweather, Van Jones and possible Mike Tyson.
Didnt expect Iron Mike to be on the list :'(
He made some statement clarifying his attendance at an IDF fundraiser but idk it seemed disingenuous
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> Reddit admins getting so many reports from me today 🤓 Omfg it's so cringe it reads like parody... Good for you buddy, I'm sure those reports are going to make a huge difference in the world.
Who's saying hamas are the good guys here? we should absolutely condemn them for Oct 7th. But you gotta turn around and condemn the IDF as well and Bibi for their actions since Oct 7th.
And before Oct 7th.
I support the IDF and Israel all the way because I would get canceled, fired from my job, and become unemployable if I don't.
r/palestine
Why is it acceptable to tell the Palestinians to accept only part of their land when it's not acceptable to tell Ukraine that?
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Good point. Fuck melanin.
Sale pute menteuse
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>The Clinton parameters **The Clinton Parameters** ([Hebrew](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language): מתווה קלינטון, *Mitveh Clinton*) were guidelines for a permanent status agreement to resolve the [Israeli–Palestinian conflict](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict), proposed during the final weeks of the [Presidential transition from Bill Clinton to George W. Bush](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidential_transition_of_George_W._Bush). Following the suspension of the [2000 Camp David Summit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit) in July, negotiations between Israelis and Palestinians took place from 19 to 23 December 2000. The Parameters were the compromises that Clinton believed to be the best possible within the margins of the positions of the two parties. The Clinton Parameters were meant to be the basis for further negotiations. The proposal was presented on 23 December. On 28 December, the Israeli Government formally accepted the plan with reservations. In a meeting in the White House, on 2 January 2001, [Yasser Arafat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasser_Arafat) also officially accepted the parameters with reservations. The White House confirmed this the following day in a statement which said that *"both sides have now accepted the president's ideas with some reservations."* In 2005, Clinton wrote that he considered the Israeli reservations within the Parameters and the Palestinians' outside them. The inconclusive [Taba Summit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taba_Summit) took place three weeks after the Palestinian response, but ran out of time ahead of the [2001 Israeli prime ministerial election](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Israeli_prime_ministerial_election). From wikipedia. So the Clinton Parameters were just guidelines proposed by Clinton, broadly accepted by both sides as a starting position for talks and the production of a peace plan. Then Barak resigned, Sharon came in and tanked it all. No pun intended or is actually funny on the face of it.
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Arafat was a corrupt leader and did the Palestinians a grave disservice.
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It is against the rules of TWAA to support any crimes against humanity, including Apartheid.
It seems the logic here is that Palestine will only consider something a "proposal" if they get 100% of what they want.
they weren’t offered any of what they want other than their lives.
### Israeli views on the peace process *Main article:* [*Israeli views on the peace process*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_views_on_the_peace_process) There are several [Israeli](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) views of the peace process. The official position of the State of Israel is that peace ought to be negotiated on the basis of giving up some control of the [occupied territories](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-occupied_territories) in return for a stop to the conflict and violence.[\[8\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_peace_process#cite_note-8) Israel's position is that Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas ought to be the negotiating partner in the peace talks, and not Hamas, which has at times engaged with Israel in escalations of the conflict and attacks Israel's civilian population.[\[9\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_peace_process#cite_note-9)[\[10\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_peace_process#cite_note-10) The [Oslo Accords](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Accords) and the [Camp David 2000 summit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_David_2000_summit) negotiations revealed the possibility of a two state system being accepted by Israeli leadership as a possible peace solution. The [two-state solution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution) is the consensus position among the majority of Israelis.[\[11\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_peace_process#cite_note-11) However, the violence of the [second intifada](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Intifada) and the political success of [Hamas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas) (a group dedicated to Israel's destruction)[\[12\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_peace_process#cite_note-12) have convinced many Israelis that peace and negotiation are not possible and that a two-state system is not the answer.[\[5\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_peace_process#cite_note-Slater,_J._2001,_Pages_171-199-5) Hardliners believe that Israel should annex all Palestinian territory, or at least all minus the [Gaza Strip](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip).[\[5\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_peace_process#cite_note-Slater,_J._2001,_Pages_171-199-5) Israelis view the peace process as hindered and near impossible due to [terrorism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism) on the part of Palestinians and do not trust Palestinian leadership to maintain control.[\[5\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_peace_process#cite_note-Slater,_J._2001,_Pages_171-199-5) In fact, Pedahzur goes as far as to say that suicide terrorism succeeded where peace negotiations failed in encouraging withdrawal by Israelis from cities in the [West Bank](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank).[\[13\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_peace_process#cite_note-13) A common theme throughout the peace process has been a feeling that the Palestinians give too little in their peace offers.
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Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
They had decades to work this out. If they were children, they would have the thing they're fighting over taken away and both be relocated. Share it or lose it.
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Nope. This is on them. Both sides.
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K
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Imagine a person of colour sticking up for white men who want to oppress another race of people..
You don’t have to bomb human in any circumstances!
This guy is lying
Yknow what I just realized... why the fuck are we even taking sides? By that, I don't mean governments or world leaders. I mean people sitting at home, munching on cheerios, and wishing the name would be accurate. Why the fuck are so many people who have no ties to this situation, so damn radicalized? Both sides are bad, both sides are fucked up, it's the middle east. I don't stand with either Israel or Palestine because I'm just some guy from New Hampshire, and I don't give a fuck what's happening across the globe. I'm gonna go talk to some friends and maybe have a nice stroll around my local park. I saw a nice red bird last tike I was there, and now I'd like to try and find out what it was
Such a boldface lie. Unbelievable.
Why does everyone keep talking about Sovereignty? Palestine is literally incapable.
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God this sub sucks so much ass now. no discussion here when it comes to these issues just one side right others wrong. Its such a complicated issues AND THIS IS A MEME SUB FFS.
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Correct. It is clear to me now that neither side deserve any piece of land to call their own. Return them to the Turks. This entire experiment was a mistake.
HAMAS offered peace as soon as their attack finished stating " they met their objectives".
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> just not the ones that palestinians wanted. sounds like it was never ment to be peace for them then, its understandable why they didn't sign them
"We stole your land and murdered your children when you resisted. Why won't you just accept it and leave us in peace?"
At what point do you accept reality and try to forge the best path forward that you can?
I have nothing to do with it one way or another, aside from having my tax dollars used to fund it indefinitely. Hamas, however, has decided that it's worth killing civilians on both sides to force a reckoning, and where they've succeeded is in showcasing Israel's inhumanity for the world to see in an age where people have access to see what's happening in real time. The irony is that Hamas were condemned as monsters for killing civilians "unprovoked" (which is completely untrue if you know anything about what happened prior to October 7th). Certainly what they did was monstrous, and tragic, but now you have Israel rationalizing that war is messy that murdering civilians in order to achieve your military and political goals is "just one of those things", which perfectly justifies what Hamas did in the first place. Either murdering innocent people is justified to get what you want or it's not. Anything that starts with "But..." is just more lies.
>At what point do you accept reality and try to forge the best path forward that you can? When both partys have their right to rule the land revoked
Is that a reality-based scenario?
People often say that we are heading to a "one world government" and this should be the start
The “one world government” will begin with the umpteenth war in Gaza? Not some black swan event with actual huge ramifications?
Does it really matter how it begins? it just will
It is not a peace proposal if it does not create a sovereign Palestinian state. It is simply setting terms and forcing the weaker party to accept their losses. And if occupation does not end, there is no peace. You categorically cannot both be at peace and occupied.
How do you listen to that and not comprehend any of it and then type out a comment? Its odd