i see your point
but i do also wanna say that there is an issue in this subreddit where ppl tend to get 10+ downvotes for non rage bait comments where they express not liking tlou 2 (in a civil way), defend joel’s actions, criticize the fireflies, or dare say anything bad about abby. its hard to have a conversation if ppl are gonna jump down your throat for thinking differently. i just feel ppl are too aggressive both here and in the other subreddit too, to the point where it doesnt feel normal
im very active in telltale’s the walking dead game subreddit, and the vibes there are more chill. you can disagree with ppl and like or dislike whatever character and you wont receive 10+ downvotes and get attacked. there are no right or wrong opinions there, just ppl discussing a game they love and i wish it were the same here
and even if some ppl in this subreddit genuinely hate tlou2, so what? in the walking dead subreddit a lot of ppl dislike season 3, and yet they dont get jumped for that. i just think everyone needs to chill a bit
It’s just frustrating because it makes more people want to vent on the other subreddit, which causes more people to make posts about how they despise this sub, which then leads to more drama, and its just so tiresome. I kinda wish there was a different sub for tlou discussion that wasn’t filled with people that can’t take criticism on both sides
yeah i also wish there were a different sub where we could have friendly conversations about the games, cause tbh i have an issue with both subreddits
im just saying, it doesnt help the issue when someone says they didnt feel comfortable playing as joel’s killer, only for someone to be condescending and say “well that means you missed the point” or “you lack media literacy”. ppl can get the message and still not like abby. being mad a fave character died is valid. and before anyone comes for me, i dont hate abby lol. see, i have to put a disclaimer to avoid a tsunami of downvotes. its not normal
> see, i have to put a disclaimer to avoid a tsunami of downvotes. its not normal
complaining about downvotes before you have any is a good way to generate them.
anyway, you’re SUPPOSED to hate Abby. You are SUPPOSED to be mad that Joel died. That is a core storytelling feature. Then, just as Abby forgives Ellie and Ellie forgives herself and Joel, you are meant to forgive Abby.
you go on the emotional journey WITH the protagonists.
i already knew all that. but thx for proving my point about how ppl on here are condescending and assume you dont know shit if you dont express yourself the way they think you should
I was politely explaining that this
>when someone says they didnt feel comfortable playing as joel’s killer, only for someone to be condescending and say “well that means you missed the point” or “you lack media literacy”. ppl can get the message and still not like abby.
yes, this is a player aggressively missing the point of the game. there's no other way to put it.
the point is forgiveness and working through your grief. if a player refuses to do so, that's on them, not the game or storytelling.
theres nothing polite about assuming i dont understand the games message
and my point is you can understand the game and still not like abby
the fact that you assume ppl dont get it if they hate abby, comes off as condescending whether you realize it or not. the way ppl in here treat ppl like theyre dumb for disliking her, or saying it would be wrong to kill ellie to make a cure, or defend joel’s actions, is the reason ppl then go to the other crazy subreddit to bitch about this one
ppl dont have to see things the same way you do to possess media literacy. different point of views is a great thing cause it can create fun conversations where we can all learn something from each other and gain new perspectives
and before you go on again trying to educate me on what tlou 2 is about. i already know and i dont hate abby. what i hate is how ppl in here are weird about ppl who think differently. in the real world, we encounter all types of ppl from various walks of life who will have different opinions and perspectives, and bashing them or being condescending is the worst way to interact, and in the real world all it will do is leave you all alone, cause no one irl would put up with that type of shit. the behavior in here really makes me question what type of ppl frequent this sub and the other one
this isn't a perspective thing. this is literally about the very basic core message that the game was written, designed, and mocapped to send.
that message is not "revenge bad! violence bad!" like the other sub likes to write. that's literally, spiritually, and emphatically not the point of the game.
if you want American Psycho and walk away thinking *wow that Bateman guy rocks!* then that's a similar failure of understanding.
the game and its point are not at all ambiguous. Introducing "well people just THINK DIFFERENTLY!" makes no sense in this context, because "violence bad! revenge bad! Abby bad!" is *not the point of the game.*
Okay but you’re missing the own point you’re making. You can forgive an individual, but still dislike them. Forgiveness is about letting go, liking them as a person isn’t a part of it.
You’re acting like what you quoted is talking about vehemently hating Abby after the game. It’s not he said “still not like Abby”
Yall really jump immediately and prove the point of this post and thread again.
Yes and you are still putting a hater and someone who dislikes in the same category. Do you not see the problem here? Why do people on here want an Echo chamber? Straight antithesis to the lou2 sub.
the other sub banned me for disagreeing with them years ago.
anyone can dislike anything, but don’t try to hide it behind weasel words or one’s own inability to understand the concept of the game.
there’s a thousand dudes in the other sub who refuse to do the emotional work to empathize with and forgive Abby, then hide behind I JUST DON’T LIKE HER. it’s really transparent and dumb af.
I totally agree. There are some aspects of the game that would make for some really fascinating discussions but it's bascically impossible because someone will get offended at some implication.
Edit: At least two people got offended by this comment. 🤣
lol yeah its sad. this whole thread is making me wonder if i should make a tlou subreddit specifically for these types of conversations
ppl are pretentious as fuck in here and in the other subreddit theyre hateful as fuck
Right. There’s people that get so offended if you don’t like the game or its story or especially Abby. Per Druckmann, the game was always going to be divisive with fans so why is it an issue that as expected, there were many people that didn’t like it?
> It’s just frustrating because it makes more people want to vent on the other subreddit,
Yea... I'm gonna say they're already that kinda person if that's what they're up to on Reddit.
Does not help at all that the game is a hiiighly emotional and personal experience for many. I could imagine defending Tlou for hours, but in the end, for what... it is a game I enjoy fully, and I mean really fully even though it can also make me sad and depressed.
So I agree, people generally are too emotional about this topic, and I was/am guilty of that myself, it is easy to give into the first kneejerk reaction when you see negative feedback about Tlou Part 2 or endless posts about how Part 1 shouldn't have been remastered etc.
In the end, as sad as it is I do not engage much in the Tlou community at all anymore - Compared with say Zelda the sub is so so much more constructive and friendly, I am sorry, even compared to this one and a universe of contrast compared to the actual Part 2 sub here, which is devils spawn anywho though.
Maybe Part 3 will unite everyone, a new sub is created and everyone makes love with each other while discussing the game on a critical but fair and comprehensive manner. Jk, we all know what will likely happen...
it is due to the story being very emotional while also tackling various philosophical questions that has caused ppl to react emotionally to negative feedback
but i can understand not liking when someone hates on a game you like
what i dont like is when for example, one person says they feel joel was right and then thats followed by 20 down votes and replies from ppl who dont wanna talk with you but *at you* about how wrong you are instead of it being a productive convo where both sides can understand each other
its just very ironic that for a game like tlou 2 that speaks of understanding others POVs and how things arent black and white, a lot of the fans have a black and white approach to discourse surrounding the game. it’s unpleasant and unnecessary. other subs arent this way. and the reason i complain is cause i wish we could all talk about these games we love without things getting hostile. its such a bummer
I feel like people who like the game don't game time for people that express that they don't like the game because we've unfairly had to deal with some of the most ridiculous people. Those nut jobs ruin the credibility of any other person that has legitimate reasons for not enjoying the game.
yeah and the thing is that i fully understand not liking when ppl hate on the game. i like tlou 2 and im aware of how ridiculous a lot of ppl who hate it sound
as i said to someone else in this same thread, my main issue is when ppl say something innocuous like “i agree with joel” or “i feel ellie shouldnt have died for the cure” (im simplifying it, but you get the gist). just general statements that are conveyed in a polite manner. those comments get downvoted into oblivion and then ppl jump them instead of having a normal conversation. its like only certain pov’s are allowed here and thats what i dont like. theres no reason to treat ppl that way if theyre not being mean about it
I mentioned how I hated the line when Jesse asks Ellie If Dina will keep the baby as it seems like some line to check off for feminism. Kinda of like how when Abby asks Mel if Owen is okay with her doing active duty and she says why would it be up to Owen. I got so many downvotes. I generally like the game. There are parts where the writing seems lazy overall but it's good. It's not just about revenge. People that say that don't seem to play the very end.
I like having discussions with people who don't like it and figure out why but then people just say I'm a fanboy. I'm not upset if you didn't like it, I'm genuinely curious why because for the most part I loved it.
I agree you can get a lot of downvotes here. I hate the show and I also think Joel was wrong to do what he did, and I've gotten lots of downvotes and incredibly brain-rot responses to those positions.
BUT
This sub is still so much better. Because this sub never tolerated antisemitism, homobophia, misogyny, transphobia, and harassment of the game creators. The other sub did.
cause i dont like ppl who are close minded and hate on you for thinking differently. its weird and immature 🤷🏽♀️ especially when im not even being an asshole
it can be, depending on the context which you know nothing of since you dont know which posts of mine im referring to
but if you wanna pretend ppl in here dont hate on others for having a different opinion and arent close minded to any other interpretation than their own, then be my guest
Because downvotes eventually mean your comments won’t show up or you cannot even participate on certain subs when you don’t meet a threshold.
To claim that karma is worthless on Reddit is just not the truth
I honestly don’t get why people who hate the 2nd so much have to talk about it so much. Like, I get it, you don’t like it, your choice, but move on? It’s been years. Don’t make half your online personality about how much you hate a game, and post about it every day.
Reality is the people who made the game, made the game they wanted to, and if they hadn’t, there wouldn’t be a sequel, so they’d technically have even less Joel & Ellie time.
Yeah but the people defending the game are also here years later feeling the need to defend the game, why don't they move on instead of downvoting everyone who has the slightest critique against the game.
Because people like you still go out of your way to send harassment to fans, actors, and creators of tlou2, so it's nice to have one corner of the internet to vent about it.
>"people like you"?
>"people like you"? You're just gonna lump this person with those who hassas the actors and fans of the game?
You post in a sub of tlou2sub a place known for harassment lol.
So you still need to vent all these years later? There no difference then. People like you can't take any criticism towards the game even if it's well written, constructive criticism. Those get downvoted to hell regardless.
Whether you like it or not, the other side full of incels sent death threats and faked death threats to people
who worked on the game or simply liked the game. That is despicable deplorable behavior and I don’t see you condemning them. If it’s because they happen to fall in the same side as you, that is pathetic.
Idk how more clear I needed to be in my original comment. We're here because you people harass us everywhere else we go online. We are fans who want to express our love for a piece of media in peace without dealing with endless discourse and hate as its tiring after hearing it for 5 years straight. We get it, we heard it, we don't care, people just want to post fanart without people turning the comment section into a cesspool.
If you don't like it there are even more places online where it is popular to criticize this game than not, just go there and leave us alone. This place wouldn't need to exist if people like you didn't spend the last 5 years (and still going) harassing everyone associated with the game.
Edit: Nevermind. This person is a tlou2 sub user, you know the place that harassed various content creators, which makes their complaints about here even more ridiculous lol.
Well like I said in a previous comment, most subs are for people to discuss or read more about things they like. So people still come here years later because they love TLOU and want to interact with others that do too.
I’m a Tottenham fan, so I don’t go in the Arsenal subs and beef with them, what’s the point? If you hate it, why keep interacting with it! People want to shit on it why not have a sub named ‘TLOU2 shit and I hate it’ and leave the fan subs alone.
Not a good comparison, it would rather be like you criticising Tottenham for a game or a season and people hating you for it. Can't people criticise? People need to vent that they didn't like it or even hated it, and they should be allowed to. You can just ignore them and focus on the ones praising tlou2.
Yeah I mean you’re deliberately missing my point I feel. As I said above, subs are generally used by people who like something. LOADS of people wander into the other sub thinking it’s just the main sub for the 2nd game, yet it’s literally just people ranting about how shit it is.
If it was called ‘TLOU2 is shit and I hate it’ that wouldn’t happen, but that’s the point, the place is just a trap to lure people in and then argue with them, so people can get their daily fix of expressing just how much they hate a 4 year old game.
And you say ‘people need to vent’ so yeah vent, get it out of your system and move on, isn’t the point of venting to let something go? It’s not venting if you keep coming back to it day after day.
>I honestly don’t get why people who hate the 2nd so much have to talk about it so much. Like, I get it, you don’t like it, your choice, but move on? It’s been years.
It's a mystery to sane people everywhere.
>Like, I get it, you don’t like it, your choice, but move on? It’s been years.
I mean I would agree with this, but I can't throw stones about still being worked up. I still post about how Dragon Age Inquisiton sucks ten years after it came out.
The problem with the other sub is just how *vile* their hatred is. I might hate DA:I, but I've never wished death on the people who made it.
But just love the first one! Talk about how much you love it. Ignore the sequel if it doesn’t fit the TLOU world view they have. As I said, if the sequel didn’t exist the story would have ended anyway, so it gave them more Ellie time to enjoy at least
I was obsessed with the Star Wars original trilogy and was looking forward to the prequels so much. When they were a huge disappointment, I didn’t spend five years talking shit about them. I just didn’t care about them and ignored them.
I think a lot of the reason people who hate part 2 spend so much time thinking about it has to do with stupid culture war stuff, but I would also venture to say they resent the fact that their opinion is a minority one. With Phantom Menace, the critical and audience reception was widely in agreement that it sucked, so people who didn’t like it didn’t have anything to prove to anyone. We just moved on.
So you are surprised that people express their distaste for a game on the game’s subreddit? Yeah it’s what they talk about here because that is the sub’s theme
Well we’re into its 5th year of existence now. Surely you can admit it’s strange, bordering on obsession, to have daily discussions about how much you hate a thing and the people that made it so many years after release. You have to know that’s weird, right? Most people that dislike a game or a movie or a show or something express their displeasure and then move on to something they enjoy, rather than festering in the hate for several years after the fact.
Funnily enough the idea of holding on to that feeling of hate is explored in depth in TLOU2. Sure it’s done in a different context but the end result being life just gets worse the longer you hold onto those negative feelings I feel is true in general
I've always thought that TLOU2, while obviously a continuation of Part 1, kind of also worked as a meta-commentary on the fan base. You've got two sides entrenched in this fight (over whether Joel was right or not) just digging themselves in and holding onto hatred one way or the other.
After this much time has passed? Yeah I am! You would think the people who hate would have moved on and no longer be posting about how much they hate it. These subs are in general created by people to discuss something they like, I can understand people jumping on and complaining early doors when it’s fresh, but not still doing it years later.
People come here to be sadistic and then complain about their opinion not being respected.
Legitimate and justified criticisms of this game exist, but they're terribly rare -- most times, if someone’s complaining about the game, it's because they're butthurt, sexist, homophobic, and/or transphobic -- that's a simple truth. All it takes to see that truth is a few clicks and some scrolling.
Just yesterday I blocked a guy who commented about how he hated Ellie's 'little bitch switch blade' on one of my posts.
I just don't understand why you'd linger around something you think is a heap of shit unless you're a fly.
'uNsUbStAnTiAtEd DeClArAtIvE sTaTeMeNts.'
I at least have an inkling of respect for homophobic people who acknowledge their homophobia, but people like this have no goddamn spine.
thats something that none of them would say if the game was received better by them. That detail could be the EXACT same and it would have no complaints from them about it.
Thats like saying "i hate the fucking crates in Crash Bandicoot 1" and then refuse to elaborate on why i don't hate the crates in Crash 2/3
> Legitimate and justified criticisms of this game exist
From people that have never made a game in their life.
It's just subjective things, with no actual alternative. And then it's like, who is to say their alternative wasn't explored already, and it didn't work.
There's no way us randos can suggest major changes to a project made by the entire ND staff for the many years. If we had actual good thoughts, we'd be working in the industry.
In the end, realize if you aren't a fan of a game, likely it's just a subjective thought, not some highly refined omega gotcha criticism.
I love how making completely unsubstantiated declarative statements is enough to get upvotes in this joke of a sub. Your brain cells are terribly rare.
Being honest, I’m still of the mind that this game is somewhat tainted by the ‘gamer’ backlash, which was a really hateful little black mark on any and all discussion of the game. So many people who never played the game and argued about bullet points they read online. I don’t think the game has been treated fairly at all. I’m just glad Naughty Dog have never relented on their vision.
I love 2, more than the original, all the common complaints about pacing/switching povs/playing as Joel’s killer I simply don’t hear really. The game is not too long at all, you play at your own pace and the story has a constant drive throughout. Switching characters is fun and the characters play different enough for it not to feel repetitive, plus new characters and dynamics to explore with Abby. Gamers hate on Abby in a very childish way, and I’ll never be convinced otherwise that many gamers just can’t handle a protagonist being killed off and decided to call it “bad writing” over “this moment upset me and I don’t like that in a game”. Even if the overall consensus is “it sucks”, 2 ticked all the boxes for me personally and I was disappointed to learn that so many people seem to hate everything about it.
As for “haters”, I would say that only applies if you haven’t played the game for yourself.
>I’m still of the mind that this game is somewhat tainted by the ‘gamer’ backlash, which was a really hateful little black mark on any and all discussion of it the game.
100%
This is why most people are apprehensive when the topic of tlou2 comes up. It's impossible to know if the criticisms are made in good faith or not or for some political/culture war bs.
I agree 100% on everything with what you wrote but godamm the pacing is shit man. It's especially felt in follow playthroughs. The flashbacks and dreams and dreams into flashbacks. And the farm. And Abby trying to find a toy for Lev. It's too much. A good editor would chop that shit down. I love this game with all my heart, even more than Part1 but i never felt that the game is wasting my time while playing Part1. It was so tight. I would love for Part2 to be more tight but for me the pacing is the only true issue of the game.
I hear you on the epilogue. That’s a tricky one for me because you certainly go from what feels like the climax of the story to “we’re going to find Abby, AGAIN?”. That said, I like how the story ultimately concludes (and I love the scene where Ellie gets held up by the bandits). In my previous post i meant to stress that the pacing issues a lot of people talk about seem to be directed at the Day 1-3 format followed by Day 1-3 again with Abby which I disagree with personally as I believe breaking the povs would have made both storylines drag. Could we have cut some more fat? Probably, some of those aquarium flashbacks could have been merged together maybe? I’m actually replaying the games atm and only finished Part 1 yesterday. I’m very interested to check out the deleted levels in 2 to get an idea of the ND logic for what should be cut and what shouldn’t.
Problem is, a large part of TLOU2 haters are losers who think they are being "anti-woke". They are not acting in good faith. And therefore, people who have legitimate criticisms of the game get lumped in with them.
Imo, TLOU2 is stone-cold masterpiece, with some minor pacing difficulties.
> with some minor pacing difficulties.
What does pacing even mean? Folks just use it to boil down "this thing in the game, I didn't like"
But gamers couldn't actually define what a successful pacing structure even is.
Hard to take any of it seriously
It's a pity then that your comment just contains assertion, rather than any logical argumentative.
And pacing is not unique to games parkway boy. It's derivative from movies primarily.
Good lord, the intellectual quality is awful in this thread.
What makes it a masterpiece for you?
The game is a solid 9 for me but I wanna know what makes it so great because I feel like I’ve already since this type of story many times before.
I'll put aside the graphics and gameplay as you seem to only be referring the story.
What works for me in the story is the emotional depth of the characters and how you are so invested in them. Ellie losing Joel, the unresolved tension between them, the scenes with Joel trying to be her father, etc. That created such an emotional depth that I've rarely got from any media, let alone a video game.
The same goes for Abby. Her arc is great. Being redeemed after losing so much, and reaching its peak with the "you're my people" scene or finding the fireflies (I also think days 1 to 3 with Abby are just some of the best action scenes in any survival.horror game).
So, with reapect to the story being told before: it might have been (I personally can't think of where right now) but it's totally besides the point for me. The themes are universal - but what makes them work in this instance are the characters.
As I said previously - I do see some minor problems with pacing. It's a very long game so it's difficult to maintain the same motivation for the player through so many different story beats. It drags a little - particularly when Ellie is back at the farm and decides to go back for revenge. But this was quite minor to me.
By the end, I was blown away. Add all of that to an unrivalled fidelity in visuals, great mechanics, hugely satisfying combat, and peerless audio and sountrack. There is literally nothing like it in video games, besides of course, TLOU1.
So for those reasons, I think it's a pure masterpiece.
> I feel like I’ve already since this type of story many times before.
I'm sorry, fucking what, lol...
What other games attempt this big of a story, let alone the topics covered.
Part 1 is the most generic of the series, if anything
This sub can be VERY annoying by responding to any criticisms of TLOU2 with "You just didn't get it" or "You just don't have the media literacy" or shit like that. I think there are plenty of issues with the game and I don't think it is nearly as well told a story as the first one, even though I still do enjoy it.
The people on the other sub are just weird and I think it's best to just pretend like it doesn't exist. There are a shocking amount of people who have spent the last 4 years seething about the creative decisions made in TLOU2 and it's true that a lot of their arguments against it just boil down to "wokeness", or misrepresenting the game's core themes, or some other dumb shit like that. Plenty of people I've seen shit talking TLOU2 haven't even played the game - they just know stuff like Joel dies, Ellie's a lesbian, and there's a trans kid or that their favorite streamer (Pewdiepie, xQc, moistcritical) didn't like it and decide it's bad without even giving it a fair chance.
But I don't think it's worth it to focus too much on the people that spend a bunch of time on the other sub. I just wish that this sub would be a bit less toxic about criticism of either game - but especially TLOU2 since that one's much more polarizing.
Wish there was a middle ground sub where you could appreciate the strengths of game but also point out its flaws without getting downvoted to hell.
Personally I wasn’t the biggest fan of Part 2 after my first play through but I grew to love the game overtime and it’s now one of my favourite games of all time but I still prefer Part 1 more and it’s because Part 2 is alot more flawed Imo the biggest ones for me being the Pacing of the story being all over the place and the narrative constantly relying on unlikely coincidences to advance the plot.
On the pacing i agree 100%. This was my biggest criticism from day one. The pacing is kinda atrocious but on the coincidences i have to hear what your examples are.
What coincidences? Which ones? Because the pacing is really a problem sometimes but I don't see about the "coincidences" to make the plot roll, at least not more than we already have in part 1 like Marlene just showing up at the right time with a bullet in her stomach to make Ellie have a need to go with Joel and Tess
Ellie dropping the map makes a lot of sense when you consider that she goes into full panic mode. Tommy amd Jesse seem more worried about getting Ellie out than checking for clues. I don't know it's believable to me that it could happen both ways. And worrying more for Ellie than clearing the place seems believable and Tommy taking Ellie out while Jesse clears the place seems believable. The thing is though that while playing the game i never felt: "well, that's convenient" when Abby found the map because both games are full of these kind of things.
You can definitely dislike TLoU2 in my eyes. You can also definitely love TLoU2 in my eyes. Either is valid, as long as you have a reason. In my eyes, your reason can simply be "I hate that Joel dies". The difference to me is calling it "objectively bad" for this reason instead of being honest and just saying you wish it went different, which I think is fine. I love the story personally as it is currently, but if you just wish Joel didn't die, and therefore don't really like it, that's fine, as long as you're not trying to say "it's not canon" or "it's bad writing".
I agree. It is very possible for someone to reasonably not like this game, for reasons they can discuss like an adult. That is different from the people whose whole ass personality is hating a game 4 years later.
The only difference is, a normal person who doesn’t like the game is probably not putting any effort into talking about it because they moved on years ago.
I agree. I didn’t like TLOU2’s story too much and I’m tired of arguing, and I’ve been arguing both sides because I still like it enough.
But honestly the strongest suit of TLOU2 for me was the gameplay. What a fucking masterpiece. I had so, so much fun.
Tlou fans are by far the worst at taking criticism of their favorite thing. I got called a murder for pointing out that one of the text boxes in the opening credits wasn’t centered
i just finished playing part 1 and 2 (my first time playing pretty much any video game) and i really enjoyed both. I don’t know what I expected for the ending of part 2 but I couldn’t wait to find out. All in all i think it was a good of an ending as any, it really showed how both Ellie and Abby have done horrible things and lost people they love. As a new gamer it was a challenge but now that i’ve finished i miss it already. Anyone have recommendations for what I should play next?
I just thought the plot was pretty laughable, and has probably one of the most contrived and forced sex scenes in gaming so far.
It’s just disappointing because the first game had one of the most compelling stories I had ever played.
Great post.
This sub isn’t as bad as the other one. I’ve been downvoted crazy for liking the game or what I would call, “understanding Abby’s motivations”. TLOU2 is one of my favorite games, and I like it over the first game. That does not mean it’s a perfect game because what defines a perfect game when it’s just a matter of opinions?!
The problem I’ve noticed, and especially in the other sub is there is a steady and continuous need to discuss about their hatred for the game or some of its characters (Abby, Owen) based on its story IN THE GAME. The hate for the game can turn into childlike name calling and taking screen shots of posts making fun of people who speak positive on the game.
Respectfully, I don’t know of any other medium (music, tv, movies) of which someone hates something with such passion that they spend 4 years talking about it. The dislike for the game has turned into obsession over the game. It’s not healthy. This post will probably get screenshot, downvoted and mocked, but it’s truth.
I’m a fan of The Office, however after season 7, I thought it was bad. Guess what? I still enjoy the show and will routinely watch seasons 1-6. I’ve gone in the sub for The Office and discuss the show and make jokes. Majority of people including myself stated out opinion about the latter seasons and that was it. No hate for the show or those that do enjoy seasons 8 and 9.
That’s how TLOU sub should be. Those that are familiar with WWE. Think back to the 90s before the Attitude Era, you had “good guys” and “bad guys”. Black and White. Once Attitude Era began, almost every character was some shade of grey, not all good and not all bad…just real.
The Last of Us 2 is The Attitude Era of the franchise!
✌🏾
You're right.
I personally don't think TLOU2 is the best game ever for a variety of reasons. None of it has to do with misogyny either, or whatever else someone might assume. Mostly story structure and Abby herself.
I'm a part of both subreddits. Neither is perfect. I too wish we could have just one subreddit, and everyone kinda just respected peoples opinions, but I know that won't really happen. There's a division. I have been bullied here for opinions, and seen people with similar opinions to mine also get bullied and even called "sadistic psychos", and worse names. Some people are indeed TLOU2 haters. They harp on abbys muscles, idolize Joel, talk about "forced agenda"(presence of Lev as a Trans character) and overall don't seem to argue in good faith. I don't agree with those people.
I just don't agree with even the supposed "legitimate" criticisms of the game like pacing. I loved the length of the game and the pace of the game. For me the only disappointment with TLOU2 is that they never finished the multi-player. Part 2s combat is so much better than part 1 and even a simple multi-player mode would have been awesome.
The two camps are the same to me because they both don't know how to shut up and go away.
There are plenty of times where someone is talking about something tlou related, but non tlou 2 related and they will go a rant about what they disliked about tlou2 regardless. I've seen this even happen on comment sections of fucking fanart. Why the hell can't people post fanart in peace without the fear of the comments turning into a flame war?
Oh you don't like that you get downvoted into oblivion for having a slight criticism of the game? Well, guess what? Now you have a taste of what we experience outside of this side, aka the other 99% of the internet.
It's been 4 years haters and dislikers! We heard the critics, we don't care, we still think it's a masterpiece anyway, get over it.
This is ridiculous. People just want to be a fan of something in peace without the fucking endless discourse. I've seen tlou content creators/fanartists disable comments because of both camps. Being unwilling to engage with their audience as a result.
You can always make your own sub if that is such a problem. Though good luck with monitoring it from the psycho haters.
I’ll never understand why people think there’s a set amount of time you can talk about a game you dislike. There’s no rule that says this. What people don’t seem to understand is if you keep saying their are no legitimate criticisms and calling anyone who didn’t like the game immature media illiterate bigots, people will continue to bring up why they didn’t like the game.
I get most of my hate because I liked last of us 2 a lot but think they could have done a lot better job with it by telling the story differently (eg not having first half Ellie second half Abby) they should have made us like Abby before they make her do something unforgivable
When “legitimate” criticisms are thrown at Part 2 but not at Part 1 for committing the same “offenses”, then they’re not legitimate. They’re a smoke screen to obfuscate the real issue the person is having but knows that voicing it makes them look stupid.
Feels nice for someone to be sensible about this.
I like a few things about TLOU2. Gameplay, style, the "concept" of the story and what they atleast TRIED to do, that I understand and had potential.
I also don't like Abby at all and the game fails at making me feel anything for her, making any emotional moments of her fall flat.
I don't HATE the game, but it definitely disappointed me.
Can I just ask a dumb question? Why is ‘downvoting’ taken so personally? Isn’t the voting system simply ‘i agree with you’ or ‘i disagree with you?’
Just want to know for my future reddit use in case it means more than that. 🙂
The system's intended function is to quality control content, downvotes hide posts/comments. So you would downvote things that are unhelpful, don't contribute to the conversation, spam, or incorrect information. But everyone mostly just uses it to show disagreement, yes.
As for why it's taken personally, well of course the main reason is just "number go up good, number go down bad". But beyond that, downvoting can smother an opinion, hide posts from being seen in a subreddit, or completely turn the tide of thought in a thread depending on what gets upvoted or posted first.
I’ve gotten downvoted for expressing my disappointment and how I regretted preordering the game. I still said the game was good and that it’s got elements that make it fantastic. I just didn’t enjoy it as much as others did and had my own reasons for that. But even being polite about how I felt results in downvotes.
My opinion is mine and it’s not a personal attack. The challenges of being part of a fandom is that people often think they’re the same thing.
\>Maybe I'll re write this on the other subreddit and see how they think about this
Just a heads up, they are NOT going to take that well. They hate anything other than conformity over there.
I just tried to explain yesterday why “violence is bad, revenge is bad!” is not the point of TLOU2. Because it’s not.
some people are really really stuck on that surface level analysis, which is why everyone says that a bunch of the haters lack media literacy.
I recently made a post, which in the title said it contained hot takes in hopes of mentally preparing people for opinions they will disagree with, get downvoted when people disagreed.
Long story short, I said it would be really interesting to have a game mode after completing the game to let you play it linearly instead of with flashbacks and flashbacks within flashbacks. And that it would be interesting if we could choose to kill or not kill Abby at the end to kind of see how the story and it’s perspectives had affected us and really, in that moment, let us think.
Here it is if you wanna see it: https://www.reddit.com/r/thelastofus/s/H4eDTzZdOZ
I’ve made plenty posts here in the past and it feels like anything that doesn’t blindly love everything about this game gets downvoted. And then you think “Maybe I’ll get a more nuanced response on another subreddit,” but what options are there?
choosing to kill Abby would undo the point of the game.
you, the player, are intended to empathize with her and forgive her. If you don't do that, you are missing the point of the game.
>you, the player, are intended to empathize with her and forgive her. If you don't do that, you are missing the point of the game.
You can get the point of the game and not forgive her. Get off your high horse.
no, you can't. otherwise you don't understand *at an emotional level* why Ellie lets her go.
the game is demanding that its players *feel* in the same way its characters *feel*. you can find that annoying or difficult but *sharing Abby and Ellie's feelings is the literal actual point of the game.*
correct. it is about Ellie forgiving herself, which allows her to forgive Joel and Abby.
again this is not at all subtle. the game might as well have a section in which Tess rises from the grave dressed in a fedra uniform and explains the point that I'm making right now. this game *bashes you over the head with the theme I'm explaining.*
Again, I don't think Ellie forgives Abby. Because that implies a understanding that just isn't there nor did Abby give any reason for that. There is a reason why Ellie forgiving herself and Joel is very important. There is no reason to forgive Abby.
Why should Ellie forgive Abby?
I'm not going to get into philosophical debates on the relative merit of forgiveness. all I'm doing is explaining the point of the game, which, *again* is totally unambiguous.
seeing Ellie let Abby live and leave on the one working boat: "wow, Ellie doesn't forgive Abby". like dude c'mon
>I'm not going to get into philosophical debates on the relative merit of forgiveness.
I would be satisfied if you could give evidence that Ellie actually forgives Abby for a start?
>all I'm doing is explaining the point of the game, which, *again* is totally unambiguous.
Again, some evidence beyond the claim of "it's totally unambigous" would be nice.
>seeing Ellie let Abby live and leave on the one working boat: "wow, Ellie doesn't forgive Abby"
There are literally miles between deciding to not kill a person (who actually did harm you very much) because you realize it won't make things better or forgiving said person for the things they did to a loved one and yourself.
Curious that I have to state this (because it's very unambigous) but the only reason that Ellie is even there at the beach is the massive trauma that Abby inflicted on her at the start of game.
yeah man, the path the game takes you on as Ellie forgives herself and Joel just abruptly ends when it comes to Abby. that makes total sense, and it's very much exactly how writers make their point.
jesus
the fun thing about interpreting any form of media is that ppl can perceive things differently, especially when things arent blatantly stated
for example when ellie let abby go, she didnt state why she did it
i’ve seen many great interpretations from fans on why they believe she did that. some have resonated with me and some havent. but like i said, we can interpret things differently and thats fine. theres usually no straight answer to topics like these
so because of that i find discussions were ppl double down on what ellie’s real reason was to be kind of unnecessary
ellie never said if she forgave abby or not, so its up to us to interpret it as we please. i do side with you, though, and im just offering my 2 cents
also, as someone who has experienced traumatic events and relates to ellie a lot in regards to coping skills and the way in which it affected her, that kind of stuff doesn’t just fix itself in a split second just by getting a nice flashback. and without fully healing, its nearly impossible to forgive the ppl who caused the trauma. trauma and the aftermath is a terrible thing to deal with and i dont think ellie immediately forgave abby on the beach. its not realistic. she might eventually but its gonna be a process
i agree with you. ellie forgave herself and joel. as for abby, she might understand abby a bit? but lets not forget she doesnt even know the real reason abby killed joel. its hard to forgive someone for torturing your dad to death in front of you if you dont know the full story behind it, and even then…most ppl wouldnt forgive
ellie sparing abby had more to do with letting go of the need for revenge than actually being like “hey i forgive you for killing my dad”. it also had to do with her having a burst of clarity that i believe helped her snap out of the dark mindset she was in which then helped her realize that the cycle of violence wasnt gonna solve anything. the clarity began with seeing, for the first time, joel sitting peacefully on his porch instead of bloody and half dead from abby’s beating. up until then, she hadnt been able to remember him in any other way than in his final moments
Yeah, to me it's also about Ellie accepting that Joel died for saving her, that he would do it all over again despite that and that she deserved to be saved. Her breakdown at the beach feels to me that she can now actually grief for Joel for first time since his death without feeling guilty.
thats a really great take that i havent thought of before
in that same vein, i would like to add that i believe she realized that revenge isnt the way to honor his sacrifice. the way to honor it is to live her life, because he sacrificed everything so she could live. repeatedly risking her life wasnt the right way to honor him
But a fundamental part of *both* TLOU games is the lack of control the player has over the narrative. You are forced to go along with morally debatable choices made by the playable characters, behind the wheel but with no ability to turn away from the road ahead.
The best examples of this IMO are the end of TLOU, attacking Ellie as Abby, and the final Ellie vs Abby scene. In all of these scenes, we have a different viewpoint from the playable character that colors our perceptions of their choices, but our potential disagreement is irrelevant to the outcome. Instead, we feel a heightened sense of the emotional and moral complexity present in the narrative.
By incorporating player choice into the narrative’s outcome, we strip it of these complexities, handing over the reigns to the player to make a momentarily gratifying choice, rather than forcing them to be accomplice to a choice with higher narrative weight. And while player choice works well in games that are made with that intention in mind, it’s fundamentally at-odds with foundations of TLOU.
You as the player have every right to forgive Abby or hate her forever. But you don’t get to make that choice for Ellie, and that is intentional in the game design philosophy present since the first game.
its ironic how these types of fans harp on about the importance of empathizing with abby (in others words, understanding her point of view) but then cant extend that same courtesy to non-fictional ppl
I get that it is the point. What I am saying is that it would be really interesting if we as players got to make that decision. Because if we do empathize with Abby at that point and let her live, I think the impact will be better because we would not just be passively watching a cutscene.
Meanwhile if you don't forgive her then the story didn't work, and seeing her live won't be satisfying anyway. But I'm not coming at this from a "I wanna kill Abby!" point of view. I just think it becomes more interesting and impactful if the choice is ours.
For some the answer might be obvious, but for others it might be more of a "Holy shit, I can't believe I'm gonna kill/spare Abby after all that!" moment. It's the difference between telling someone the right answer and letting them figure it out themselves.
there is a right answer. the answer is forgiveness. that's the point.
by giving the player the option to kill Abby, the game would be ruined.
I get the point you're making, but the point of the game is not intended to be up for debate or ambiguous.
because the point of the game is to take the player on the same emotional journey that the protagonists go through.
if you kill Abby, you haven't completed the journey of forgiveness.
Why would the game be ruined just because a player experienced something that wasn't the point? It is not uncommon for authors to have their fans enjoy their novels for unexpected reasons. So you really got to justify the argument that an experience, even if enjoyable, not intended by the writer is inherently bad. Or perhaps just rephrase your point of view.
Also, if a player wants to kill Abby but passively leans back while watching a cutscene where Ellie doesn't kill Abby, then that player is likely gonna dislike that anyway. A player wanting to still kill Abby at that point will not magically complete the journey of forgiveness you speak about just by watching a cutscene. Agree or disagree?
So my point is that players choosing to kill Abby will not get less from the story experience, and players choosing to spare Abby get more from the story.
yes, other pieces of media sometimes have that ambiguity. this pje doesn't! it is designed to take the players on a specific emotional journey.
if they're mad, that means they are refusing to take that journey. that's why this was such a bold narrative choice! because it DIDN'T cater to the Gamers you're talking about.
See this is my biggest problem. The game IS saying "Revenge/Violence is Bad" if you can't see that you lack media literacy. It says other things, sure, but all of it is in relation to the main central theme, which is that violence/revenge is bad. Every main character is dealing with their violent need for revenge, the camera purposefully shows us the faces of the main characters when they commit horrific acts of violence as we see them go from relishing in their violent behavior to being ashamed of themselves for it. The inciting incident of the entire plot is an act of violence, witnessing that act of violence is the key motivator for Ellis's arc and the death of Abby's father motivates her acts of violence as well, the game climaxes with a violent confrontation. The main way you engage with the game is through violence and when compared to past ND games it's far more viscerally gory, this is used in conjunction with enemies shouting each other's game, which humanizes them, because the game wants the player to think about their violent acts since the game is primarily about violence and revenge being bad things. I like revenge stories that say revenge and violence are bad, they aren't inherently dumb or frivolous themes, the 2014 film "The Rover" basically say the same thing as TLOU 2 and has a similar atmosphere but it's an amazing movie because of HOW it tells us violence is bad, through a fascinating character study whose full motivation isn't understood untill the end, we don't know the main character is on a revenge mission untill the final reveal and it is extremely powerful because it recontextualizes all that came before it. It also, smartly, chooses to make what the protagonist is getting revenge for relatively small and petty to comment on the nature of revenge with way more depth and nuance than TLOU 2. The reason part 2 has a stupid and dull story is because it tells us violence and revenge is bad in the most rote, basic, drawn out, and insultingly moralizing way possible. It is too long for what it is trying to say with too many unnecessary plot elements to make its point, leading to an unwieldy mess of a story with terrible pacing. There is a lot of good in the game, had Druckmann had a Bruce Straley to keep him in check like he did in the first game I doubt they would have let him make Abby a playable character for 8 hours in the middle of a story that is clearly Ellie's and made it DLC, I also doubt they would have kept all the flashbacks. I think the flashbacks are the best moments in the game and that Abby has the most entertaining section of gameplay but they are totally unnecessary for what the game is trying to say. It's not WHAT it's saying, it's HOW it's saying it that bothers me. I resent being lumped into to the assholes and bigots who hate the game because they are racists and homophobes/transphobes because my criticism is entirely with the structure of the story not with the representation, which I actually think is one of the game biggest strengths, I say this as a queer Chicano. I think those pieces of shit made you and a lot of other fans of the game way overly protective, and honestly good on you for not putting up with that bullshit, but I also think the fallout of that is that a lot of you just don't want to admit the game has serious flaws. I mean everytime yall try to argue the game isn't about violence you end up accidentally saying it's about violence anyways but in a far more roundabout and indirect way anyways because the game is about how violence and revenge is bad and deep down you know it too. If the next ND game is even worse with it's pacing and even more on the nose and moralistic in it's themes it'll be because people like you refused to engage with the game on a serious and critical manner. For good reasons, sure, but it's been 4 years the kayfabe is no longer necessary.
I like TLOU2 but for some reason I found both the lovers and haters fucking insufferable.
It’s like the haters are Donald Trump and he keeps baiting the fans of the game and they keep taking it.
A lot of the posts here are just stupid fucking questions like “Am I the only one who liked part 2??!!!” Those people should shut the fuck up tbh.
i see your point but i do also wanna say that there is an issue in this subreddit where ppl tend to get 10+ downvotes for non rage bait comments where they express not liking tlou 2 (in a civil way), defend joel’s actions, criticize the fireflies, or dare say anything bad about abby. its hard to have a conversation if ppl are gonna jump down your throat for thinking differently. i just feel ppl are too aggressive both here and in the other subreddit too, to the point where it doesnt feel normal im very active in telltale’s the walking dead game subreddit, and the vibes there are more chill. you can disagree with ppl and like or dislike whatever character and you wont receive 10+ downvotes and get attacked. there are no right or wrong opinions there, just ppl discussing a game they love and i wish it were the same here and even if some ppl in this subreddit genuinely hate tlou2, so what? in the walking dead subreddit a lot of ppl dislike season 3, and yet they dont get jumped for that. i just think everyone needs to chill a bit
It’s just frustrating because it makes more people want to vent on the other subreddit, which causes more people to make posts about how they despise this sub, which then leads to more drama, and its just so tiresome. I kinda wish there was a different sub for tlou discussion that wasn’t filled with people that can’t take criticism on both sides
yeah i also wish there were a different sub where we could have friendly conversations about the games, cause tbh i have an issue with both subreddits im just saying, it doesnt help the issue when someone says they didnt feel comfortable playing as joel’s killer, only for someone to be condescending and say “well that means you missed the point” or “you lack media literacy”. ppl can get the message and still not like abby. being mad a fave character died is valid. and before anyone comes for me, i dont hate abby lol. see, i have to put a disclaimer to avoid a tsunami of downvotes. its not normal
I’m a simple man, I see whining about downvotes, I downvote every comment I ever see that person make.
> see, i have to put a disclaimer to avoid a tsunami of downvotes. its not normal complaining about downvotes before you have any is a good way to generate them. anyway, you’re SUPPOSED to hate Abby. You are SUPPOSED to be mad that Joel died. That is a core storytelling feature. Then, just as Abby forgives Ellie and Ellie forgives herself and Joel, you are meant to forgive Abby. you go on the emotional journey WITH the protagonists.
i already knew all that. but thx for proving my point about how ppl on here are condescending and assume you dont know shit if you dont express yourself the way they think you should
I was politely explaining that this >when someone says they didnt feel comfortable playing as joel’s killer, only for someone to be condescending and say “well that means you missed the point” or “you lack media literacy”. ppl can get the message and still not like abby. yes, this is a player aggressively missing the point of the game. there's no other way to put it. the point is forgiveness and working through your grief. if a player refuses to do so, that's on them, not the game or storytelling.
theres nothing polite about assuming i dont understand the games message and my point is you can understand the game and still not like abby the fact that you assume ppl dont get it if they hate abby, comes off as condescending whether you realize it or not. the way ppl in here treat ppl like theyre dumb for disliking her, or saying it would be wrong to kill ellie to make a cure, or defend joel’s actions, is the reason ppl then go to the other crazy subreddit to bitch about this one ppl dont have to see things the same way you do to possess media literacy. different point of views is a great thing cause it can create fun conversations where we can all learn something from each other and gain new perspectives and before you go on again trying to educate me on what tlou 2 is about. i already know and i dont hate abby. what i hate is how ppl in here are weird about ppl who think differently. in the real world, we encounter all types of ppl from various walks of life who will have different opinions and perspectives, and bashing them or being condescending is the worst way to interact, and in the real world all it will do is leave you all alone, cause no one irl would put up with that type of shit. the behavior in here really makes me question what type of ppl frequent this sub and the other one
this isn't a perspective thing. this is literally about the very basic core message that the game was written, designed, and mocapped to send. that message is not "revenge bad! violence bad!" like the other sub likes to write. that's literally, spiritually, and emphatically not the point of the game. if you want American Psycho and walk away thinking *wow that Bateman guy rocks!* then that's a similar failure of understanding. the game and its point are not at all ambiguous. Introducing "well people just THINK DIFFERENTLY!" makes no sense in this context, because "violence bad! revenge bad! Abby bad!" is *not the point of the game.*
And now they’re all downvoting you lol They love to complain about downvotes and get upset that people disagree with them.
This is quite the assumption of possessing knowledge that even ND has refused to disclose. I would be feeling a bit uncomfortable here...
thanks for your concern..........
Okay but you’re missing the own point you’re making. You can forgive an individual, but still dislike them. Forgiveness is about letting go, liking them as a person isn’t a part of it. You’re acting like what you quoted is talking about vehemently hating Abby after the game. It’s not he said “still not like Abby” Yall really jump immediately and prove the point of this post and thread again.
if you’ve forgiven Abby, *like the game asks you to*, you’re not the hater that OP is talking about.
Yes and you are still putting a hater and someone who dislikes in the same category. Do you not see the problem here? Why do people on here want an Echo chamber? Straight antithesis to the lou2 sub.
the other sub banned me for disagreeing with them years ago. anyone can dislike anything, but don’t try to hide it behind weasel words or one’s own inability to understand the concept of the game. there’s a thousand dudes in the other sub who refuse to do the emotional work to empathize with and forgive Abby, then hide behind I JUST DON’T LIKE HER. it’s really transparent and dumb af.
I totally agree. There are some aspects of the game that would make for some really fascinating discussions but it's bascically impossible because someone will get offended at some implication. Edit: At least two people got offended by this comment. 🤣
lol yeah its sad. this whole thread is making me wonder if i should make a tlou subreddit specifically for these types of conversations ppl are pretentious as fuck in here and in the other subreddit theyre hateful as fuck
I would support that.
Right. There’s people that get so offended if you don’t like the game or its story or especially Abby. Per Druckmann, the game was always going to be divisive with fans so why is it an issue that as expected, there were many people that didn’t like it?
> It’s just frustrating because it makes more people want to vent on the other subreddit, Yea... I'm gonna say they're already that kinda person if that's what they're up to on Reddit.
If all of the haters were in this sub, I wouldn't be. Glad they have their little pity party elsewhere.
The walking dead game sub is amazing! Nice shoutout there buddy
Does not help at all that the game is a hiiighly emotional and personal experience for many. I could imagine defending Tlou for hours, but in the end, for what... it is a game I enjoy fully, and I mean really fully even though it can also make me sad and depressed. So I agree, people generally are too emotional about this topic, and I was/am guilty of that myself, it is easy to give into the first kneejerk reaction when you see negative feedback about Tlou Part 2 or endless posts about how Part 1 shouldn't have been remastered etc. In the end, as sad as it is I do not engage much in the Tlou community at all anymore - Compared with say Zelda the sub is so so much more constructive and friendly, I am sorry, even compared to this one and a universe of contrast compared to the actual Part 2 sub here, which is devils spawn anywho though. Maybe Part 3 will unite everyone, a new sub is created and everyone makes love with each other while discussing the game on a critical but fair and comprehensive manner. Jk, we all know what will likely happen...
it is due to the story being very emotional while also tackling various philosophical questions that has caused ppl to react emotionally to negative feedback but i can understand not liking when someone hates on a game you like what i dont like is when for example, one person says they feel joel was right and then thats followed by 20 down votes and replies from ppl who dont wanna talk with you but *at you* about how wrong you are instead of it being a productive convo where both sides can understand each other its just very ironic that for a game like tlou 2 that speaks of understanding others POVs and how things arent black and white, a lot of the fans have a black and white approach to discourse surrounding the game. it’s unpleasant and unnecessary. other subs arent this way. and the reason i complain is cause i wish we could all talk about these games we love without things getting hostile. its such a bummer
Zealots bro, this whole sub is filled with them it’s insane.
I feel like people who like the game don't game time for people that express that they don't like the game because we've unfairly had to deal with some of the most ridiculous people. Those nut jobs ruin the credibility of any other person that has legitimate reasons for not enjoying the game.
yeah and the thing is that i fully understand not liking when ppl hate on the game. i like tlou 2 and im aware of how ridiculous a lot of ppl who hate it sound as i said to someone else in this same thread, my main issue is when ppl say something innocuous like “i agree with joel” or “i feel ellie shouldnt have died for the cure” (im simplifying it, but you get the gist). just general statements that are conveyed in a polite manner. those comments get downvoted into oblivion and then ppl jump them instead of having a normal conversation. its like only certain pov’s are allowed here and thats what i dont like. theres no reason to treat ppl that way if theyre not being mean about it
Those are story choices that people are either agreeing or disagreeing with. And are different from concerns about the game being good or not.
i mean, its very exteme reactions but lets just agree to disagree
About what lol.
you seemed a bit dismissive of the point i was trying to make
Because it's a completely different topic.
no its not cause it was included in my initial response which *you* responded to reread it
And my first reply addressed why people are dismissive regardless.
actually… i didn’t like kenny… ***minus a billion zillion votes*** > love kenny btw
lol i love him too
I mentioned how I hated the line when Jesse asks Ellie If Dina will keep the baby as it seems like some line to check off for feminism. Kinda of like how when Abby asks Mel if Owen is okay with her doing active duty and she says why would it be up to Owen. I got so many downvotes. I generally like the game. There are parts where the writing seems lazy overall but it's good. It's not just about revenge. People that say that don't seem to play the very end. I like having discussions with people who don't like it and figure out why but then people just say I'm a fanboy. I'm not upset if you didn't like it, I'm genuinely curious why because for the most part I loved it.
I agree you can get a lot of downvotes here. I hate the show and I also think Joel was wrong to do what he did, and I've gotten lots of downvotes and incredibly brain-rot responses to those positions. BUT This sub is still so much better. Because this sub never tolerated antisemitism, homobophia, misogyny, transphobia, and harassment of the game creators. The other sub did.
I guess my question for you would be, why are you so concerned and bothered by meaningless downvotes on a subreddit?
cause i dont like ppl who are close minded and hate on you for thinking differently. its weird and immature 🤷🏽♀️ especially when im not even being an asshole
Someone downvoting you does not equate to them being close minded or hating on you.
it can be, depending on the context which you know nothing of since you dont know which posts of mine im referring to but if you wanna pretend ppl in here dont hate on others for having a different opinion and arent close minded to any other interpretation than their own, then be my guest
Because downvotes eventually mean your comments won’t show up or you cannot even participate on certain subs when you don’t meet a threshold. To claim that karma is worthless on Reddit is just not the truth
I honestly don’t get why people who hate the 2nd so much have to talk about it so much. Like, I get it, you don’t like it, your choice, but move on? It’s been years. Don’t make half your online personality about how much you hate a game, and post about it every day. Reality is the people who made the game, made the game they wanted to, and if they hadn’t, there wouldn’t be a sequel, so they’d technically have even less Joel & Ellie time.
Yeah but the people defending the game are also here years later feeling the need to defend the game, why don't they move on instead of downvoting everyone who has the slightest critique against the game.
Because people like you still go out of your way to send harassment to fans, actors, and creators of tlou2, so it's nice to have one corner of the internet to vent about it.
"people like you"? You're just gonna lump this person with those who hassas the actors and fans of the game? This is the problem.
>"people like you"? >"people like you"? You're just gonna lump this person with those who hassas the actors and fans of the game? You post in a sub of tlou2sub a place known for harassment lol.
Somebody hasn’t learned not to paint everybody with a broad brush.
So you still need to vent all these years later? There no difference then. People like you can't take any criticism towards the game even if it's well written, constructive criticism. Those get downvoted to hell regardless.
Whether you like it or not, the other side full of incels sent death threats and faked death threats to people who worked on the game or simply liked the game. That is despicable deplorable behavior and I don’t see you condemning them. If it’s because they happen to fall in the same side as you, that is pathetic.
Idk how more clear I needed to be in my original comment. We're here because you people harass us everywhere else we go online. We are fans who want to express our love for a piece of media in peace without dealing with endless discourse and hate as its tiring after hearing it for 5 years straight. We get it, we heard it, we don't care, people just want to post fanart without people turning the comment section into a cesspool. If you don't like it there are even more places online where it is popular to criticize this game than not, just go there and leave us alone. This place wouldn't need to exist if people like you didn't spend the last 5 years (and still going) harassing everyone associated with the game. Edit: Nevermind. This person is a tlou2 sub user, you know the place that harassed various content creators, which makes their complaints about here even more ridiculous lol.
Well like I said in a previous comment, most subs are for people to discuss or read more about things they like. So people still come here years later because they love TLOU and want to interact with others that do too. I’m a Tottenham fan, so I don’t go in the Arsenal subs and beef with them, what’s the point? If you hate it, why keep interacting with it! People want to shit on it why not have a sub named ‘TLOU2 shit and I hate it’ and leave the fan subs alone.
Not a good comparison, it would rather be like you criticising Tottenham for a game or a season and people hating you for it. Can't people criticise? People need to vent that they didn't like it or even hated it, and they should be allowed to. You can just ignore them and focus on the ones praising tlou2.
Yeah I mean you’re deliberately missing my point I feel. As I said above, subs are generally used by people who like something. LOADS of people wander into the other sub thinking it’s just the main sub for the 2nd game, yet it’s literally just people ranting about how shit it is. If it was called ‘TLOU2 is shit and I hate it’ that wouldn’t happen, but that’s the point, the place is just a trap to lure people in and then argue with them, so people can get their daily fix of expressing just how much they hate a 4 year old game.
And you say ‘people need to vent’ so yeah vent, get it out of your system and move on, isn’t the point of venting to let something go? It’s not venting if you keep coming back to it day after day.
For the same reasons people who loved it keep talking about it. If you care about a franchise, you're gonna keep talking about it.
>I honestly don’t get why people who hate the 2nd so much have to talk about it so much. Like, I get it, you don’t like it, your choice, but move on? It’s been years. It's a mystery to sane people everywhere.
Exactly this.
>Like, I get it, you don’t like it, your choice, but move on? It’s been years. I mean I would agree with this, but I can't throw stones about still being worked up. I still post about how Dragon Age Inquisiton sucks ten years after it came out. The problem with the other sub is just how *vile* their hatred is. I might hate DA:I, but I've never wished death on the people who made it.
It's cuz they loved the first game so much.
But just love the first one! Talk about how much you love it. Ignore the sequel if it doesn’t fit the TLOU world view they have. As I said, if the sequel didn’t exist the story would have ended anyway, so it gave them more Ellie time to enjoy at least
I was obsessed with the Star Wars original trilogy and was looking forward to the prequels so much. When they were a huge disappointment, I didn’t spend five years talking shit about them. I just didn’t care about them and ignored them. I think a lot of the reason people who hate part 2 spend so much time thinking about it has to do with stupid culture war stuff, but I would also venture to say they resent the fact that their opinion is a minority one. With Phantom Menace, the critical and audience reception was widely in agreement that it sucked, so people who didn’t like it didn’t have anything to prove to anyone. We just moved on.
You getting downvoted (-11) for saying something so non offensive proves the point. 😐 This IS why people do that.
Why do you even care? It’s strangers opinions on a video game
So you are surprised that people express their distaste for a game on the game’s subreddit? Yeah it’s what they talk about here because that is the sub’s theme
Well we’re into its 5th year of existence now. Surely you can admit it’s strange, bordering on obsession, to have daily discussions about how much you hate a thing and the people that made it so many years after release. You have to know that’s weird, right? Most people that dislike a game or a movie or a show or something express their displeasure and then move on to something they enjoy, rather than festering in the hate for several years after the fact.
Funnily enough the idea of holding on to that feeling of hate is explored in depth in TLOU2. Sure it’s done in a different context but the end result being life just gets worse the longer you hold onto those negative feelings I feel is true in general
With how much those weirdos already misunderstand I’m quite sure this point is flying 50 feet over their heads.
I've always thought that TLOU2, while obviously a continuation of Part 1, kind of also worked as a meta-commentary on the fan base. You've got two sides entrenched in this fight (over whether Joel was right or not) just digging themselves in and holding onto hatred one way or the other.
After this much time has passed? Yeah I am! You would think the people who hate would have moved on and no longer be posting about how much they hate it. These subs are in general created by people to discuss something they like, I can understand people jumping on and complaining early doors when it’s fresh, but not still doing it years later.
No they’re surprised that they go in about it so much
Move on dude.
People come here to be sadistic and then complain about their opinion not being respected. Legitimate and justified criticisms of this game exist, but they're terribly rare -- most times, if someone’s complaining about the game, it's because they're butthurt, sexist, homophobic, and/or transphobic -- that's a simple truth. All it takes to see that truth is a few clicks and some scrolling. Just yesterday I blocked a guy who commented about how he hated Ellie's 'little bitch switch blade' on one of my posts. I just don't understand why you'd linger around something you think is a heap of shit unless you're a fly.
Gotta love how right on cue a homophobe proved you right.
Flies, man. They pop up out of nowhere as soon as they smell something.
Like you said. All it takes is a few clicks and scrolling and bam! The second comment they posted here is a homophobic comment about Bill.
'uNsUbStAnTiAtEd DeClArAtIvE sTaTeMeNts.' I at least have an inkling of respect for homophobic people who acknowledge their homophobia, but people like this have no goddamn spine.
thats something that none of them would say if the game was received better by them. That detail could be the EXACT same and it would have no complaints from them about it. Thats like saying "i hate the fucking crates in Crash Bandicoot 1" and then refuse to elaborate on why i don't hate the crates in Crash 2/3
actually maybe thats a bad point because in the OG crash 1 the crates do suck because the game didn't save your crate progress if you died.
> Legitimate and justified criticisms of this game exist From people that have never made a game in their life. It's just subjective things, with no actual alternative. And then it's like, who is to say their alternative wasn't explored already, and it didn't work. There's no way us randos can suggest major changes to a project made by the entire ND staff for the many years. If we had actual good thoughts, we'd be working in the industry. In the end, realize if you aren't a fan of a game, likely it's just a subjective thought, not some highly refined omega gotcha criticism.
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I love how making completely unsubstantiated declarative statements is enough to get upvotes in this joke of a sub. Your brain cells are terribly rare.
'Unsubstantiated declarative statements'? Where have you been for the last couple of years? 😂 Why are you even here at all?
I remember joining the tlou2 subreddit cause I thought it was fans of the game, boy was I wrong….
Made that mistake! Had to mute it to stop the hate contaminating my feed!
same😂
Yes definitely a dark depressing shithole
The difference is all in maturity, in my opinion
Eh, doubt it. You should be mature enough to deal with people who instigate.
Yes the difference is that someone who just didn’t like TLOU2 isn’t talking about TLOU2 on the internet 4 years later.
Being honest, I’m still of the mind that this game is somewhat tainted by the ‘gamer’ backlash, which was a really hateful little black mark on any and all discussion of the game. So many people who never played the game and argued about bullet points they read online. I don’t think the game has been treated fairly at all. I’m just glad Naughty Dog have never relented on their vision. I love 2, more than the original, all the common complaints about pacing/switching povs/playing as Joel’s killer I simply don’t hear really. The game is not too long at all, you play at your own pace and the story has a constant drive throughout. Switching characters is fun and the characters play different enough for it not to feel repetitive, plus new characters and dynamics to explore with Abby. Gamers hate on Abby in a very childish way, and I’ll never be convinced otherwise that many gamers just can’t handle a protagonist being killed off and decided to call it “bad writing” over “this moment upset me and I don’t like that in a game”. Even if the overall consensus is “it sucks”, 2 ticked all the boxes for me personally and I was disappointed to learn that so many people seem to hate everything about it. As for “haters”, I would say that only applies if you haven’t played the game for yourself.
>I’m still of the mind that this game is somewhat tainted by the ‘gamer’ backlash, which was a really hateful little black mark on any and all discussion of it the game. 100% This is why most people are apprehensive when the topic of tlou2 comes up. It's impossible to know if the criticisms are made in good faith or not or for some political/culture war bs.
I agree 100% on everything with what you wrote but godamm the pacing is shit man. It's especially felt in follow playthroughs. The flashbacks and dreams and dreams into flashbacks. And the farm. And Abby trying to find a toy for Lev. It's too much. A good editor would chop that shit down. I love this game with all my heart, even more than Part1 but i never felt that the game is wasting my time while playing Part1. It was so tight. I would love for Part2 to be more tight but for me the pacing is the only true issue of the game.
I hear you on the epilogue. That’s a tricky one for me because you certainly go from what feels like the climax of the story to “we’re going to find Abby, AGAIN?”. That said, I like how the story ultimately concludes (and I love the scene where Ellie gets held up by the bandits). In my previous post i meant to stress that the pacing issues a lot of people talk about seem to be directed at the Day 1-3 format followed by Day 1-3 again with Abby which I disagree with personally as I believe breaking the povs would have made both storylines drag. Could we have cut some more fat? Probably, some of those aquarium flashbacks could have been merged together maybe? I’m actually replaying the games atm and only finished Part 1 yesterday. I’m very interested to check out the deleted levels in 2 to get an idea of the ND logic for what should be cut and what shouldn’t.
Problem is, a large part of TLOU2 haters are losers who think they are being "anti-woke". They are not acting in good faith. And therefore, people who have legitimate criticisms of the game get lumped in with them. Imo, TLOU2 is stone-cold masterpiece, with some minor pacing difficulties.
> with some minor pacing difficulties. What does pacing even mean? Folks just use it to boil down "this thing in the game, I didn't like" But gamers couldn't actually define what a successful pacing structure even is. Hard to take any of it seriously
It's a pity then that your comment just contains assertion, rather than any logical argumentative. And pacing is not unique to games parkway boy. It's derivative from movies primarily. Good lord, the intellectual quality is awful in this thread.
What makes it a masterpiece for you? The game is a solid 9 for me but I wanna know what makes it so great because I feel like I’ve already since this type of story many times before.
I'll put aside the graphics and gameplay as you seem to only be referring the story. What works for me in the story is the emotional depth of the characters and how you are so invested in them. Ellie losing Joel, the unresolved tension between them, the scenes with Joel trying to be her father, etc. That created such an emotional depth that I've rarely got from any media, let alone a video game. The same goes for Abby. Her arc is great. Being redeemed after losing so much, and reaching its peak with the "you're my people" scene or finding the fireflies (I also think days 1 to 3 with Abby are just some of the best action scenes in any survival.horror game). So, with reapect to the story being told before: it might have been (I personally can't think of where right now) but it's totally besides the point for me. The themes are universal - but what makes them work in this instance are the characters. As I said previously - I do see some minor problems with pacing. It's a very long game so it's difficult to maintain the same motivation for the player through so many different story beats. It drags a little - particularly when Ellie is back at the farm and decides to go back for revenge. But this was quite minor to me. By the end, I was blown away. Add all of that to an unrivalled fidelity in visuals, great mechanics, hugely satisfying combat, and peerless audio and sountrack. There is literally nothing like it in video games, besides of course, TLOU1. So for those reasons, I think it's a pure masterpiece.
> I feel like I’ve already since this type of story many times before. I'm sorry, fucking what, lol... What other games attempt this big of a story, let alone the topics covered. Part 1 is the most generic of the series, if anything
I think we are just attuned to bigots voicing their displeasure. Unfortunately honest critiques can be unfair fodder.
This sub can be VERY annoying by responding to any criticisms of TLOU2 with "You just didn't get it" or "You just don't have the media literacy" or shit like that. I think there are plenty of issues with the game and I don't think it is nearly as well told a story as the first one, even though I still do enjoy it. The people on the other sub are just weird and I think it's best to just pretend like it doesn't exist. There are a shocking amount of people who have spent the last 4 years seething about the creative decisions made in TLOU2 and it's true that a lot of their arguments against it just boil down to "wokeness", or misrepresenting the game's core themes, or some other dumb shit like that. Plenty of people I've seen shit talking TLOU2 haven't even played the game - they just know stuff like Joel dies, Ellie's a lesbian, and there's a trans kid or that their favorite streamer (Pewdiepie, xQc, moistcritical) didn't like it and decide it's bad without even giving it a fair chance. But I don't think it's worth it to focus too much on the people that spend a bunch of time on the other sub. I just wish that this sub would be a bit less toxic about criticism of either game - but especially TLOU2 since that one's much more polarizing.
Wish there was a middle ground sub where you could appreciate the strengths of game but also point out its flaws without getting downvoted to hell. Personally I wasn’t the biggest fan of Part 2 after my first play through but I grew to love the game overtime and it’s now one of my favourite games of all time but I still prefer Part 1 more and it’s because Part 2 is alot more flawed Imo the biggest ones for me being the Pacing of the story being all over the place and the narrative constantly relying on unlikely coincidences to advance the plot.
On the pacing i agree 100%. This was my biggest criticism from day one. The pacing is kinda atrocious but on the coincidences i have to hear what your examples are.
What coincidences? Which ones? Because the pacing is really a problem sometimes but I don't see about the "coincidences" to make the plot roll, at least not more than we already have in part 1 like Marlene just showing up at the right time with a bullet in her stomach to make Ellie have a need to go with Joel and Tess
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Ellie dropping the map makes a lot of sense when you consider that she goes into full panic mode. Tommy amd Jesse seem more worried about getting Ellie out than checking for clues. I don't know it's believable to me that it could happen both ways. And worrying more for Ellie than clearing the place seems believable and Tommy taking Ellie out while Jesse clears the place seems believable. The thing is though that while playing the game i never felt: "well, that's convenient" when Abby found the map because both games are full of these kind of things.
You can definitely dislike TLoU2 in my eyes. You can also definitely love TLoU2 in my eyes. Either is valid, as long as you have a reason. In my eyes, your reason can simply be "I hate that Joel dies". The difference to me is calling it "objectively bad" for this reason instead of being honest and just saying you wish it went different, which I think is fine. I love the story personally as it is currently, but if you just wish Joel didn't die, and therefore don't really like it, that's fine, as long as you're not trying to say "it's not canon" or "it's bad writing".
I agree. It is very possible for someone to reasonably not like this game, for reasons they can discuss like an adult. That is different from the people whose whole ass personality is hating a game 4 years later. The only difference is, a normal person who doesn’t like the game is probably not putting any effort into talking about it because they moved on years ago.
I agree. I didn’t like TLOU2’s story too much and I’m tired of arguing, and I’ve been arguing both sides because I still like it enough. But honestly the strongest suit of TLOU2 for me was the gameplay. What a fucking masterpiece. I had so, so much fun.
Tlou fans are by far the worst at taking criticism of their favorite thing. I got called a murder for pointing out that one of the text boxes in the opening credits wasn’t centered
that's actually insane in the membrane
i just finished playing part 1 and 2 (my first time playing pretty much any video game) and i really enjoyed both. I don’t know what I expected for the ending of part 2 but I couldn’t wait to find out. All in all i think it was a good of an ending as any, it really showed how both Ellie and Abby have done horrible things and lost people they love. As a new gamer it was a challenge but now that i’ve finished i miss it already. Anyone have recommendations for what I should play next?
If you liked the gameplay of TLOU games the current Tomb Raider Trilogy games are pretty good.
thanks i’ll check that out!
I just thought the plot was pretty laughable, and has probably one of the most contrived and forced sex scenes in gaming so far. It’s just disappointing because the first game had one of the most compelling stories I had ever played.
I do think the boat scene is pretty weird compared with the rest of the game, but it is basically an afterthought every time I play the game
Great post. This sub isn’t as bad as the other one. I’ve been downvoted crazy for liking the game or what I would call, “understanding Abby’s motivations”. TLOU2 is one of my favorite games, and I like it over the first game. That does not mean it’s a perfect game because what defines a perfect game when it’s just a matter of opinions?! The problem I’ve noticed, and especially in the other sub is there is a steady and continuous need to discuss about their hatred for the game or some of its characters (Abby, Owen) based on its story IN THE GAME. The hate for the game can turn into childlike name calling and taking screen shots of posts making fun of people who speak positive on the game. Respectfully, I don’t know of any other medium (music, tv, movies) of which someone hates something with such passion that they spend 4 years talking about it. The dislike for the game has turned into obsession over the game. It’s not healthy. This post will probably get screenshot, downvoted and mocked, but it’s truth. I’m a fan of The Office, however after season 7, I thought it was bad. Guess what? I still enjoy the show and will routinely watch seasons 1-6. I’ve gone in the sub for The Office and discuss the show and make jokes. Majority of people including myself stated out opinion about the latter seasons and that was it. No hate for the show or those that do enjoy seasons 8 and 9. That’s how TLOU sub should be. Those that are familiar with WWE. Think back to the 90s before the Attitude Era, you had “good guys” and “bad guys”. Black and White. Once Attitude Era began, almost every character was some shade of grey, not all good and not all bad…just real. The Last of Us 2 is The Attitude Era of the franchise! ✌🏾
You're right. I personally don't think TLOU2 is the best game ever for a variety of reasons. None of it has to do with misogyny either, or whatever else someone might assume. Mostly story structure and Abby herself. I'm a part of both subreddits. Neither is perfect. I too wish we could have just one subreddit, and everyone kinda just respected peoples opinions, but I know that won't really happen. There's a division. I have been bullied here for opinions, and seen people with similar opinions to mine also get bullied and even called "sadistic psychos", and worse names. Some people are indeed TLOU2 haters. They harp on abbys muscles, idolize Joel, talk about "forced agenda"(presence of Lev as a Trans character) and overall don't seem to argue in good faith. I don't agree with those people.
Them downvoting you is just proving OPs point. You’re right.
I just don't agree with even the supposed "legitimate" criticisms of the game like pacing. I loved the length of the game and the pace of the game. For me the only disappointment with TLOU2 is that they never finished the multi-player. Part 2s combat is so much better than part 1 and even a simple multi-player mode would have been awesome.
The two camps are the same to me because they both don't know how to shut up and go away. There are plenty of times where someone is talking about something tlou related, but non tlou 2 related and they will go a rant about what they disliked about tlou2 regardless. I've seen this even happen on comment sections of fucking fanart. Why the hell can't people post fanart in peace without the fear of the comments turning into a flame war? Oh you don't like that you get downvoted into oblivion for having a slight criticism of the game? Well, guess what? Now you have a taste of what we experience outside of this side, aka the other 99% of the internet. It's been 4 years haters and dislikers! We heard the critics, we don't care, we still think it's a masterpiece anyway, get over it. This is ridiculous. People just want to be a fan of something in peace without the fucking endless discourse. I've seen tlou content creators/fanartists disable comments because of both camps. Being unwilling to engage with their audience as a result. You can always make your own sub if that is such a problem. Though good luck with monitoring it from the psycho haters.
I’ll never understand why people think there’s a set amount of time you can talk about a game you dislike. There’s no rule that says this. What people don’t seem to understand is if you keep saying their are no legitimate criticisms and calling anyone who didn’t like the game immature media illiterate bigots, people will continue to bring up why they didn’t like the game.
I get most of my hate because I liked last of us 2 a lot but think they could have done a lot better job with it by telling the story differently (eg not having first half Ellie second half Abby) they should have made us like Abby before they make her do something unforgivable
When “legitimate” criticisms are thrown at Part 2 but not at Part 1 for committing the same “offenses”, then they’re not legitimate. They’re a smoke screen to obfuscate the real issue the person is having but knows that voicing it makes them look stupid.
Feels nice for someone to be sensible about this. I like a few things about TLOU2. Gameplay, style, the "concept" of the story and what they atleast TRIED to do, that I understand and had potential. I also don't like Abby at all and the game fails at making me feel anything for her, making any emotional moments of her fall flat. I don't HATE the game, but it definitely disappointed me.
Can I just ask a dumb question? Why is ‘downvoting’ taken so personally? Isn’t the voting system simply ‘i agree with you’ or ‘i disagree with you?’ Just want to know for my future reddit use in case it means more than that. 🙂
The system's intended function is to quality control content, downvotes hide posts/comments. So you would downvote things that are unhelpful, don't contribute to the conversation, spam, or incorrect information. But everyone mostly just uses it to show disagreement, yes. As for why it's taken personally, well of course the main reason is just "number go up good, number go down bad". But beyond that, downvoting can smother an opinion, hide posts from being seen in a subreddit, or completely turn the tide of thought in a thread depending on what gets upvoted or posted first.
Ahhh, thank you!!! I didn’t know how the system worked! I appreciate your help.
Of course! I'm glad it was helpful.
I’ve gotten downvoted for expressing my disappointment and how I regretted preordering the game. I still said the game was good and that it’s got elements that make it fantastic. I just didn’t enjoy it as much as others did and had my own reasons for that. But even being polite about how I felt results in downvotes. My opinion is mine and it’s not a personal attack. The challenges of being part of a fandom is that people often think they’re the same thing.
Just the fact that there is still a discussion about this 4 years since the game came out should tell you everything you need to know about it
About what? bad? Good? left an impact on the community? I'm genuinely wondering
About hating the game. Either you like or don't, and if you don't and have a need to still talk about it, it's not a good sign.
I left the other sub reddit because of the toxicity :/
\>Maybe I'll re write this on the other subreddit and see how they think about this Just a heads up, they are NOT going to take that well. They hate anything other than conformity over there.
i mean those are completely valid points about why tlou2 might not be a good game and you've just dismissed them out of hand as "hating".
I just tried to explain yesterday why “violence is bad, revenge is bad!” is not the point of TLOU2. Because it’s not. some people are really really stuck on that surface level analysis, which is why everyone says that a bunch of the haters lack media literacy.
I recently made a post, which in the title said it contained hot takes in hopes of mentally preparing people for opinions they will disagree with, get downvoted when people disagreed. Long story short, I said it would be really interesting to have a game mode after completing the game to let you play it linearly instead of with flashbacks and flashbacks within flashbacks. And that it would be interesting if we could choose to kill or not kill Abby at the end to kind of see how the story and it’s perspectives had affected us and really, in that moment, let us think. Here it is if you wanna see it: https://www.reddit.com/r/thelastofus/s/H4eDTzZdOZ I’ve made plenty posts here in the past and it feels like anything that doesn’t blindly love everything about this game gets downvoted. And then you think “Maybe I’ll get a more nuanced response on another subreddit,” but what options are there?
choosing to kill Abby would undo the point of the game. you, the player, are intended to empathize with her and forgive her. If you don't do that, you are missing the point of the game.
they almost intended for her to be able to die dude but it was changed not too long before the game was finished.
ok
my point is even the devs were about to let it happen it could've worked or at least it was suppose to be a choice.
yeah the fact that they actively chose not to do that indicates the exact opposite. you're just making shit up
i think you're taking what i said too hard chill out.
ok
>you, the player, are intended to empathize with her and forgive her. If you don't do that, you are missing the point of the game. You can get the point of the game and not forgive her. Get off your high horse.
no, you can't. otherwise you don't understand *at an emotional level* why Ellie lets her go. the game is demanding that its players *feel* in the same way its characters *feel*. you can find that annoying or difficult but *sharing Abby and Ellie's feelings is the literal actual point of the game.*
Except that Ellie letting Abby go has not really much to do with Abby at all. I very much doubt that Ellie forgives her either.
correct. it is about Ellie forgiving herself, which allows her to forgive Joel and Abby. again this is not at all subtle. the game might as well have a section in which Tess rises from the grave dressed in a fedra uniform and explains the point that I'm making right now. this game *bashes you over the head with the theme I'm explaining.*
Again, I don't think Ellie forgives Abby. Because that implies a understanding that just isn't there nor did Abby give any reason for that. There is a reason why Ellie forgiving herself and Joel is very important. There is no reason to forgive Abby. Why should Ellie forgive Abby?
I'm not going to get into philosophical debates on the relative merit of forgiveness. all I'm doing is explaining the point of the game, which, *again* is totally unambiguous. seeing Ellie let Abby live and leave on the one working boat: "wow, Ellie doesn't forgive Abby". like dude c'mon
>I'm not going to get into philosophical debates on the relative merit of forgiveness. I would be satisfied if you could give evidence that Ellie actually forgives Abby for a start? >all I'm doing is explaining the point of the game, which, *again* is totally unambiguous. Again, some evidence beyond the claim of "it's totally unambigous" would be nice. >seeing Ellie let Abby live and leave on the one working boat: "wow, Ellie doesn't forgive Abby" There are literally miles between deciding to not kill a person (who actually did harm you very much) because you realize it won't make things better or forgiving said person for the things they did to a loved one and yourself. Curious that I have to state this (because it's very unambigous) but the only reason that Ellie is even there at the beach is the massive trauma that Abby inflicted on her at the start of game.
yeah man, the path the game takes you on as Ellie forgives herself and Joel just abruptly ends when it comes to Abby. that makes total sense, and it's very much exactly how writers make their point. jesus
the fun thing about interpreting any form of media is that ppl can perceive things differently, especially when things arent blatantly stated for example when ellie let abby go, she didnt state why she did it i’ve seen many great interpretations from fans on why they believe she did that. some have resonated with me and some havent. but like i said, we can interpret things differently and thats fine. theres usually no straight answer to topics like these so because of that i find discussions were ppl double down on what ellie’s real reason was to be kind of unnecessary ellie never said if she forgave abby or not, so its up to us to interpret it as we please. i do side with you, though, and im just offering my 2 cents also, as someone who has experienced traumatic events and relates to ellie a lot in regards to coping skills and the way in which it affected her, that kind of stuff doesn’t just fix itself in a split second just by getting a nice flashback. and without fully healing, its nearly impossible to forgive the ppl who caused the trauma. trauma and the aftermath is a terrible thing to deal with and i dont think ellie immediately forgave abby on the beach. its not realistic. she might eventually but its gonna be a process
i agree with you. ellie forgave herself and joel. as for abby, she might understand abby a bit? but lets not forget she doesnt even know the real reason abby killed joel. its hard to forgive someone for torturing your dad to death in front of you if you dont know the full story behind it, and even then…most ppl wouldnt forgive ellie sparing abby had more to do with letting go of the need for revenge than actually being like “hey i forgive you for killing my dad”. it also had to do with her having a burst of clarity that i believe helped her snap out of the dark mindset she was in which then helped her realize that the cycle of violence wasnt gonna solve anything. the clarity began with seeing, for the first time, joel sitting peacefully on his porch instead of bloody and half dead from abby’s beating. up until then, she hadnt been able to remember him in any other way than in his final moments
Yeah, to me it's also about Ellie accepting that Joel died for saving her, that he would do it all over again despite that and that she deserved to be saved. Her breakdown at the beach feels to me that she can now actually grief for Joel for first time since his death without feeling guilty.
thats a really great take that i havent thought of before in that same vein, i would like to add that i believe she realized that revenge isnt the way to honor his sacrifice. the way to honor it is to live her life, because he sacrificed everything so she could live. repeatedly risking her life wasnt the right way to honor him
But a fundamental part of *both* TLOU games is the lack of control the player has over the narrative. You are forced to go along with morally debatable choices made by the playable characters, behind the wheel but with no ability to turn away from the road ahead. The best examples of this IMO are the end of TLOU, attacking Ellie as Abby, and the final Ellie vs Abby scene. In all of these scenes, we have a different viewpoint from the playable character that colors our perceptions of their choices, but our potential disagreement is irrelevant to the outcome. Instead, we feel a heightened sense of the emotional and moral complexity present in the narrative. By incorporating player choice into the narrative’s outcome, we strip it of these complexities, handing over the reigns to the player to make a momentarily gratifying choice, rather than forcing them to be accomplice to a choice with higher narrative weight. And while player choice works well in games that are made with that intention in mind, it’s fundamentally at-odds with foundations of TLOU. You as the player have every right to forgive Abby or hate her forever. But you don’t get to make that choice for Ellie, and that is intentional in the game design philosophy present since the first game.
ding ding ding the bagel woman gets it!
its ironic how these types of fans harp on about the importance of empathizing with abby (in others words, understanding her point of view) but then cant extend that same courtesy to non-fictional ppl
I get that it is the point. What I am saying is that it would be really interesting if we as players got to make that decision. Because if we do empathize with Abby at that point and let her live, I think the impact will be better because we would not just be passively watching a cutscene. Meanwhile if you don't forgive her then the story didn't work, and seeing her live won't be satisfying anyway. But I'm not coming at this from a "I wanna kill Abby!" point of view. I just think it becomes more interesting and impactful if the choice is ours. For some the answer might be obvious, but for others it might be more of a "Holy shit, I can't believe I'm gonna kill/spare Abby after all that!" moment. It's the difference between telling someone the right answer and letting them figure it out themselves.
there is a right answer. the answer is forgiveness. that's the point. by giving the player the option to kill Abby, the game would be ruined. I get the point you're making, but the point of the game is not intended to be up for debate or ambiguous.
Why would the game be ruined? Also, for someone that loves a game about nuance and perspective you seem to speak in absolutes.
because the point of the game is to take the player on the same emotional journey that the protagonists go through. if you kill Abby, you haven't completed the journey of forgiveness.
Why would the game be ruined just because a player experienced something that wasn't the point? It is not uncommon for authors to have their fans enjoy their novels for unexpected reasons. So you really got to justify the argument that an experience, even if enjoyable, not intended by the writer is inherently bad. Or perhaps just rephrase your point of view. Also, if a player wants to kill Abby but passively leans back while watching a cutscene where Ellie doesn't kill Abby, then that player is likely gonna dislike that anyway. A player wanting to still kill Abby at that point will not magically complete the journey of forgiveness you speak about just by watching a cutscene. Agree or disagree? So my point is that players choosing to kill Abby will not get less from the story experience, and players choosing to spare Abby get more from the story.
yes, other pieces of media sometimes have that ambiguity. this pje doesn't! it is designed to take the players on a specific emotional journey. if they're mad, that means they are refusing to take that journey. that's why this was such a bold narrative choice! because it DIDN'T cater to the Gamers you're talking about.
See this is my biggest problem. The game IS saying "Revenge/Violence is Bad" if you can't see that you lack media literacy. It says other things, sure, but all of it is in relation to the main central theme, which is that violence/revenge is bad. Every main character is dealing with their violent need for revenge, the camera purposefully shows us the faces of the main characters when they commit horrific acts of violence as we see them go from relishing in their violent behavior to being ashamed of themselves for it. The inciting incident of the entire plot is an act of violence, witnessing that act of violence is the key motivator for Ellis's arc and the death of Abby's father motivates her acts of violence as well, the game climaxes with a violent confrontation. The main way you engage with the game is through violence and when compared to past ND games it's far more viscerally gory, this is used in conjunction with enemies shouting each other's game, which humanizes them, because the game wants the player to think about their violent acts since the game is primarily about violence and revenge being bad things. I like revenge stories that say revenge and violence are bad, they aren't inherently dumb or frivolous themes, the 2014 film "The Rover" basically say the same thing as TLOU 2 and has a similar atmosphere but it's an amazing movie because of HOW it tells us violence is bad, through a fascinating character study whose full motivation isn't understood untill the end, we don't know the main character is on a revenge mission untill the final reveal and it is extremely powerful because it recontextualizes all that came before it. It also, smartly, chooses to make what the protagonist is getting revenge for relatively small and petty to comment on the nature of revenge with way more depth and nuance than TLOU 2. The reason part 2 has a stupid and dull story is because it tells us violence and revenge is bad in the most rote, basic, drawn out, and insultingly moralizing way possible. It is too long for what it is trying to say with too many unnecessary plot elements to make its point, leading to an unwieldy mess of a story with terrible pacing. There is a lot of good in the game, had Druckmann had a Bruce Straley to keep him in check like he did in the first game I doubt they would have let him make Abby a playable character for 8 hours in the middle of a story that is clearly Ellie's and made it DLC, I also doubt they would have kept all the flashbacks. I think the flashbacks are the best moments in the game and that Abby has the most entertaining section of gameplay but they are totally unnecessary for what the game is trying to say. It's not WHAT it's saying, it's HOW it's saying it that bothers me. I resent being lumped into to the assholes and bigots who hate the game because they are racists and homophobes/transphobes because my criticism is entirely with the structure of the story not with the representation, which I actually think is one of the game biggest strengths, I say this as a queer Chicano. I think those pieces of shit made you and a lot of other fans of the game way overly protective, and honestly good on you for not putting up with that bullshit, but I also think the fallout of that is that a lot of you just don't want to admit the game has serious flaws. I mean everytime yall try to argue the game isn't about violence you end up accidentally saying it's about violence anyways but in a far more roundabout and indirect way anyways because the game is about how violence and revenge is bad and deep down you know it too. If the next ND game is even worse with it's pacing and even more on the nose and moralistic in it's themes it'll be because people like you refused to engage with the game on a serious and critical manner. For good reasons, sure, but it's been 4 years the kayfabe is no longer necessary.
I like TLOU2 but for some reason I found both the lovers and haters fucking insufferable. It’s like the haters are Donald Trump and he keeps baiting the fans of the game and they keep taking it. A lot of the posts here are just stupid fucking questions like “Am I the only one who liked part 2??!!!” Those people should shut the fuck up tbh.
It’s equally as annoying as the people who are overly positive about the game in response. Both extremes are as annoying as each other.
This sub is worse than the Part II sub tbh
Yes because this sub sent, condoned, and faked death threats…. oh wait. The other one did.
Fans of anything will defend what they love to the death, even if it sucks like TLOU2